Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Wittlesbachs => Topic started by: Kaiserin Sissi on July 03, 2006, 12:25:57 PM

Title: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Kaiserin Sissi on July 03, 2006, 12:25:57 PM
Does anybody have infos and maybe pictures about the mother of Maximilien in Bayern ( the father of Sissi) and did he have brothers and sisters ?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: José on July 03, 2006, 05:08:59 PM
I guess she was the only child from her father's first (and both) marriages.

http://genealogia.netopia.pt/pessoas/pes_show.php?id=126734
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on July 04, 2006, 03:04:32 AM
We have already discussed about Amalie d'Arenberg, Maximilian's mother. No one in this discussion board has ever seen a portrait of Amalie. There must be one or two in the castle of Landshut in Bavaria. Maybe I have time to go there one day.

Maximilian didn't have any siblings. His parents went seperate ways soon after his birth. Besides that, Amalie wasn't in good health. Maybe she hadn't survived another birth. It's a pity that they couldn't see each other regularly in the last years of her life since Maximilian was educated in Munich and Amalie lived in Bamberg. Anyway, Maximilian was very close to his mother and suffered a lot when she died.

Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Marie Valerie on September 06, 2006, 05:58:07 AM
I'm looking for pics ONLY with Duchess Ludovika in Bavaria on it, especially before she was married to Duke Max.

Please help!
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Agneschen on September 06, 2006, 08:06:07 AM
There was no photography back then. You will only find portraits/drawings of young Ludovika.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on September 07, 2006, 01:37:50 PM
There aren't many portraits known to the public which were painted before 1828 (marriage to Max).

I have some paintings showing young Ludovica, her siblings and her parents. But I definitely have photographs of the duchess in older age. I'll post them tomorrow.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on September 07, 2006, 02:47:35 PM
Yeah, the dog was called Bummerl.  :D
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Daniela on October 27, 2006, 04:39:53 AM
I've read many times that Max had a lot of illegitimate children. Can someone tell about them and also about their mothers. I presume that Max had more than one lover. :P

Daniela
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: britt.25 on October 27, 2006, 09:51:53 AM
Can anybody name some special ones of Max´illeg. children, if he had some? Are they known? My knowledge of the Wittelsbach family is not the best, but I would be interested. Are there pictures of them? Did Sisi have a contact to the other children of Max, who were not from the marriage with her mother?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 27, 2006, 10:03:48 AM
I think it's only a rumour that Max had so many illegitimate children. In my books I've only read about two daughters, but their names were not mentioned. Max had contact to these daughters. In spite of his children by Ludovica, his two daughters could enter their father's room whenever they wanted to. Besides, Max had dinner with them every day.

One of these daughters became a nun. Albert of T&T, Helene's son, told the author Sexau that the other daughter was very tall, but ugly. He met her once in Munich.

I guess that Ludovica's children knew their half-sisters as they were daily guests in the Maxpalais in Munich. It is also said that Marie Queen of Naples brought her half-sisters to Duke Max after he had died.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Marc on October 27, 2006, 07:43:19 PM
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/EliArenberg.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Marc on October 27, 2006, 07:45:42 PM
Don't know how much of you are interested but I found a portrait of Duchess Amalie's(Sissi's grandmother) step-mother,Duchess Elisabeth von Arenberg,born Princess Shakhovskoy...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 28, 2006, 02:47:58 AM
Marc, have you ever seen a portrait von Amalie Arenberg? I'm desperately searching for it.  :(
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Marc on October 28, 2006, 08:10:16 AM
Me too,but I have never seen it-not even black or white one!  :'(
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on December 15, 2006, 02:13:55 PM
I think that is the death Ludovika. What do you mean?

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/ludovikavierk2.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on December 15, 2006, 02:14:47 PM
Another one

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/ludovika1.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 15, 2006, 03:24:53 PM
I think that is the death Ludovika. What do you mean?

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/ludovikavierk2.jpg)


Francesco II., Ludovica's son-in-law, gave the order for this marbel statue which was most probably done by Mr. Rümann in May 1892.

Once this statue was located in the chapel of the Herzog Max Palais. Today you can see the same statue in the ducal crypt at Tegernsee. Maybe the statue was brought from Munich to Tegernsee or the statue at the crypt is just a copy ...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on December 16, 2006, 09:24:14 AM
I think that is the death Ludovika. What do you mean?

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/ludovikavierk2.jpg)


Francesco II., Ludovica's son-in-law, gave the order for this marbel statue which was most probably done by Mr. Rümann in May 1892.

Once this statue was located in the chapel of the Herzog Max Palais. Today you can see the same statue in the ducal crypt at Tegernsee. Maybe the statue was brought from Munich to Tegernsee or the statue at the crypt is just a copy ...


Francisco was nice. Even if he were not a great king. He was a family human being. And that´s great.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: José on December 17, 2006, 09:18:15 AM
Ludovika was in love of Prince D. Miguel of Bragança, gr.grand-father of D.Duarte.
A convict absolutist, the Prince had been involved in a few rebellions against his father King D.João VI, a fair constitutional monarch.
In his plots he was supported by his mother, the infamous Queen Joaquina-Carlota of Spain.
D.Miguel was exiled and lived, among other places, in Vienna.
I suppose, it was there that he first met Ludovika.
Then after D.João VI's death (1826) the Prince returned to Portugal and he was appointed Regent in behalf of his 7 year old niece D.Maria da Glória, whom he should marry in due time.
Instead, in 1828 D.Miguel proclaimed himself King and ruled effectively as an absolute monarch until 1834 when the brotherly civil war ended and he had to leave again for exile.

By then Ludovika had been married to Duke Max in Bavaria.
Apparently her father King Maximilian I didn't approve Ludovika's infatuation and married her swiftly to her cousin.
Later, the two families were to be joined in marriage in several occasions:
Ludovika's son Carl-Theodore married D.Miguel's daughter Infanta D.Maria José.
Ludovika's grand-daughter Elizabeth (Nene's daughter) would marry D.Miguel's son, D.Miguel (II) Duke of Bragança.

Does anybody know if in definitive exile, D.Miguel kept any contact with Ludovika ?
He lived mostly in Bavaria in Kleinheubach, a fief of his in-laws family, the Princes of Loewenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg, the eldest line of the Wittelsbach family.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 17, 2006, 02:07:31 PM

By then Ludovika had been married to Duke Max in Bavaria.
Apparently her father King Maximilian I didn't approve Ludovika's infatuation and married her swiftly to her cousin.


Well, Duke Max and Princess Ludovica had known each other since their early childhood. Duke Wilhelm (Max's grandfather) and King Max I. (Ludovica's father) were close friends and political partners. It was their plan to upvalue the new branch of the Dukes in Bavaria by a marriage between Max and a daughter of Max I. Wilhelm didn't care about the name of this princess. Max I. chose his youngest and favourite daughter Caroline, called Ni, to be the future wife of his godson Max in Bavaria. But Caroline died in 1821, so the next available princess had to take her place: Ludovica. Wilhelm wrote Eh bien, il épousera Louison. Their marriage was settled in 1825, but the official engagement was two years later in December 1827.
Ludovica met Miguel for the first time at Vienna in 1826, when she visited her sister Archduchess Sophie. By this time, she had already been Duke Max in Bavaria's unofficial bride. The love of Ludovica and Miguel never had a chance.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on November 02, 2008, 02:35:24 PM
(http://i35.tinypic.com/1zmgy1i.jpg)

This was on ebay. Ludovika in 1860 with her grandchildren. No names of them.
They could be:

Marie Louise Wallersee (1858)
Louise Mathilde Taxis (1859)
Elisabeth Taxis (1860)
Did I forget a grandchild?

I don´t think that Gisela (1856) and Rudolf (1858) are on the picture.
The new-born in her hands could be Elisabeth. The child left to her Louise and the other Marie. ???
Thanks for replies.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 03, 2008, 01:34:35 PM
In my opinion this cdv doesn't show Ludovica. I also wrote to the seller and told him about my doubts. He answered that the girls are Luisa and Elisabeth of Thurn und Taxis and a daughter of Empress Sisi - e.g. it has to be Gisela. He also informed me that this cdv once belonged to Princess Wiltrud, a daughter of Ludwig III. of Bavaria.

However, this woman is definitely NOT Ludovica.

By the way: He didn't want to send me a bigger version ... Guess why ...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: synnadene on November 03, 2008, 01:53:36 PM

I agree, Marie. In ca. 1860 Ludovica was already much older then the lady on the picture. Although the seller made a good business with 56 Euros (!!). I can imagine the buyer, what an expert :-))
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Svetabel on November 04, 2008, 09:47:23 AM
I also saw that CDV on e-bay and had doubts as well. The woman doesn't look like Ludovica at all. She could be a nanny for example though I am not sure. I am not sure about the little girls either, and even if the CDV belonged to Princess Wiltrud that didn't mean it portrayed Royalties.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on November 04, 2008, 01:09:46 PM

The girls could be Ludovikas grandchildren, but it´s a pity that are no pictures of Ludovika as a young woman.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on March 02, 2009, 01:36:18 PM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/022b6ca8.jpg)

Busts of Ludovika and her sister Marie
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 08, 2009, 08:10:05 PM
Young Duchess Ludovika with children

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Ludovika_de_Baviera_.jpg/120px-Ludovika_de_Baviera_.jpg)

The pics about dead Ludovika are a little bit scary.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on June 18, 2009, 03:59:45 AM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Ludovika_de_Baviera_.jpg/120px-Ludovika_de_Baviera_.jpg)

The children are Ludwig, Helene and baby Elisabeth.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 23, 2009, 06:52:39 PM
Haven’t you got some pics about young Duchess Ludovika? I remember one painting that I saw years ago on Wikipedia of young Ludovika (she looked very pretty) but I didn’t save it, I tried to search it again even in other places but I couldn’t find it, Perhaps you’ve seen it before. :-) Please if you see it post it, You always post wonderful and interesting things. :-)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on October 16, 2009, 02:35:25 PM
http://www.boltz-auktionen.de/zuschlaege.html

On this site there is a painting of Ludovika and one of her daughters. Which daughter could it be? There is no year or a bigger version.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 16, 2009, 03:54:32 PM
She looked very young here and most likely the eldest daughter Helene.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 16, 2009, 06:02:25 PM
http://www.boltz-auktionen.de/zuschlaege.html

On this site there is a painting of Ludovika and one of her daughters. Which daughter could it be? There is no year or a bigger version.


Although you can't enlarge the painting, I don't think it is Ludovica. The child could be a boy, too.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on October 17, 2009, 07:40:13 AM
But it ws normal for girls to have this hairstyle. Just look at Sisis daughter Sophie.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 17, 2009, 03:57:15 PM
Well...Can't be sure since the photo is too small. It could be Queen Marie of Bavaria with Ludwig too...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on October 18, 2009, 07:38:42 AM
Interesting..
Could be Marie.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 18, 2009, 12:45:18 PM
The clothes, hairstyle seemed to be like Marie, who was much younger than Ludovika.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 30, 2009, 02:26:48 PM
It's so small and dark. But she isn't Ludovica.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 30, 2009, 02:55:04 PM
Ludovica

(http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/9748/1808ludovika.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 30, 2009, 02:58:11 PM
A smaller version of the double portrait of Ludovika and Max.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on October 30, 2009, 05:52:44 PM
In the right site, you can see a portrait of Ludovika. It´s in St. Emmeram

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/schl04.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 01, 2009, 10:18:55 AM
Hard to see. It is quite dark.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 03, 2009, 02:27:13 PM
She was a beautiful lady when she was young, she reminds me her mother, queen Caroline, specially
her eyebrows... I can't see the portrait, is very small and dark :-(
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 03, 2009, 03:30:46 PM
Ludovika was rumored to be the most beautiful of Queen Caroline's daughters. Ludovika's daughters were among the best looking princeses of Europe.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 05, 2009, 07:43:32 AM
Ludovika was rumored to be the most beautiful of Queen Caroline's daughters. Ludovika's daughters were among the best looking princeses of Europe.
I didn't knew that she was considered as beautiful as you said, but her daughters were, specially Sissi and Sophie ;-)
Ludovika is more beautiful than her eldest sister, Sophie
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 05, 2009, 03:02:09 PM
Indeed...It was quite a shock that Ludovika discover that she alone was not going to be a Queen, Empress or even a consort of a reigning duke. She was dreamming of marrying Don Miguel of Portugal.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 06, 2009, 02:23:11 PM
Poor Ludovika!!! She had to marry with someone that she didn't love and that didn't love her, in fact he
cheated on her and also have ilegitimate children, Maximilian never tryied to hide it, in fact he ate with
his ilegitimate sons. They only had a good relationship when they were old... What pity!!! :'-(
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 06, 2009, 02:28:16 PM
The only thing going for Max was that he was young, handsome and good looking. I guess why with two beautiful physical being, they could produce so many children...most of them very attractive and charming. They were all deemed "unique" in the royalty circles at the time.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 06, 2009, 02:44:52 PM
Of course, I was forgetting that in that days they got married for interests, for
having much children (Ludovika and Max could do it very well). Perhaps Ludovika
could felt realised in her daughters, one became Empress and other Queen ;-)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 06, 2009, 02:47:40 PM
Well...Ludovika did felt vindicated with Sisi's marriage. She scolded her daughter when Sisi complained about married life in Vienna. With a handsome husband, rich and postion, what more can one want ?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 06, 2009, 02:57:57 PM
Well...Ludovika did felt vindicated with Sisi's marriage. She scolded her daughter when Sisi complained about married life in Vienna. With a handsome husband, rich and postion, what more can one want ?
Indeed true ;-)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 06, 2009, 03:09:05 PM
Yet for the dreamy Sisi, it was not enough. I also read that Ludovika kept Max out of the marriage negociations.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 06, 2009, 03:16:50 PM
Well, really Sissi wasn't really happy of being Empress, any other Princess in her condition
would felt so happy, but for Sissi it wasn't a good new.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 06, 2009, 03:27:33 PM
Of course, but Sissi didn't think as this ladies, she would preffered to be a dark duchess in Bavaria
than an Empress, perhaps her education made her as this, I've read that Charlotte was educated
more like his brothers (to rule) and she felt bad for not rule when she got married with Maximilian, for
this reason ahe encouraged Maximilian to accept the offering of the mexican crown, really he wasn't so interested
to accept it, well that's other thread ;-)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 06, 2009, 05:32:45 PM
Yes. Ludovika concentrated her efforts on Nene, and the result was that she was the most accomplished of the daughters. When Sisi got engaged she said "I love him so much, if only he was not the Emperor..." I doubt you will hear that from Charlotte or Stephanie. It was this bit of naivety that endeared Sisi to the common people. I think Max would have understood his daughter's sentiments.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 06, 2009, 06:19:56 PM
We should also keep in mind that Maximilian wasn't a stranger to Ludovica when they got engaged, which was a big advantage in those days. Maximilian's grandfather Wilhelm and Ludovica's father Max I. were quite close; Max I. was also Maximilian's godfather and responsable for his education. So Ludovica and her future husband have been knowing each other since they were children. They spent time together and they also wrote very cute letters to one another.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 06, 2009, 09:49:44 PM
But they were not in love and not expected to marry each other. The disapointment on Ludovika's wedding night spoke volumes. She pushed him into a cubboard and locked him in. Talking about a happy bride.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: prinzheinelgirl on November 06, 2009, 11:46:12 PM
But they were not in love and not expected to marry each other. The disapointment on Ludovika's wedding night spoke volumes. She pushed him into a cubboard and locked him in. Talking about a happy bride.

Really? That's most interesting...some of those royals had a very 'interesting' wedding night!
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 07, 2009, 09:33:38 AM
Yes. Ludovika was ambitious like his mother Caroline and wanted a good marriage but instead got fobbed off with a poor cousin. It would explain why she wept tears of joy when Sisi was selected to be Empress of Austria.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 07, 2009, 04:14:15 PM
But they were not in love and not expected to marry each other. The disapointment on Ludovika's wedding night spoke volumes. She pushed him into a cubboard and locked him in. Talking about a happy bride.

I heard of this story, but I don't think that it really happened that way.

By the way: Duke Max wasn't "a poor cousin" at all. He inherited his mother's huge properties in France and in 1837 he was his grandfather's sole heir.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 07, 2009, 04:23:17 PM
Yes. Ludovika concentrated her efforts on Nene, and the result was that she was the most accomplished of the daughters. When Sisi got engaged she said "I love him so much, if only he was not the Emperor..." I doubt you will hear that from Charlotte or Stephanie. It was this bit of naivety that endeared Sisi to the common people. I think Max would have understood his daughter's sentiments.

Sissi wasn't like the great majority of Princesses of her time, she had an strange point of view. I think
that any other lady in her situation would be so satisfied.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Princess Susan on November 08, 2009, 04:20:32 AM
Indeed! I think, also Sisi's sisters as Marie and Nene would have been happy in her position of the Empress, dispite of Nene's happy marriage. Although I read somewhere, that Helene considered behaviour of her husband Max for a bit cold.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on November 08, 2009, 07:22:49 AM
Indeed! I think, also Sisi's sisters as Marie and Nene would have been happy in her position of the Empress, dispite of Nene's happy marriage. Although I read somewhere, that Helene considered behaviour of her husband Max for a bit cold.

That was the fear of Nenes aunt Amelie of Sachsen. She had doubts about Maximilians honesty. But maybe Maximilian was just so reserved.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on November 08, 2009, 09:52:21 AM
(http://i34.tinypic.com/121xuv6.jpg)

I found a bigger version. And it seems that is not Ludovika and Marie.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 08, 2009, 07:33:50 PM
It looks more like Queen Marie of Bavaria and young Ludwig II to me.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 09, 2009, 09:51:41 AM
She doesn't look like Ludovika
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 17, 2009, 03:27:43 PM
Aren't there images of Ludovika as a girl or teenager?
I think that there aren't much images about her
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 17, 2009, 04:58:32 PM
Aren't there images of Ludovika as a girl or teenager?
I think that there aren't much images about her.

There are some paintings by Joseph Karl Stieler, for example this one of Ludovica and her elder twin sisters Marie and Sophie:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Ludovica_marie_sophie.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2009, 05:56:26 PM
Lovely ! Have one of Ludovika and her twin ?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 17, 2009, 07:37:58 PM
Amazing one MarieCharlotte!!! Thank you very much!!! Is this the only one?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2009, 08:19:19 PM
This one was shown in b/w in Martha Schad's book on Ludovika's mother Queen Caroline of Bavaria.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: aor on November 18, 2009, 09:10:36 AM
Lovely ! Have one of Ludovika and her twin ?

there was no twin to Ludovica.......
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 18, 2009, 11:40:47 AM
I forgot about that. There was another set of twin girls I remember though. One of them Queen Elizabeth of Prussia.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 18, 2009, 02:12:10 PM
I forgot about that. There was another set of twin girls I remember though. One of them Queen Elizabeth of Prussia.

First set of twins: Amalie Queen of Saxony and Elisabeth Queen of Prussia (born 13 November 1801 - it's quite sad that their mother Caroline died on their 40th birthday, 13 November 1841)

Second set of twins: Sophie Archduchess of Austria and Marie Queen of Saxony (born 27 January 1805)


@ Kaiserin Alzbeta Sissi: I guess there are some more paintings of young Ludovica by Stieler. But the one I posted in my last message is the only one I have ever seen of Ludovica as a child.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 18, 2009, 02:29:33 PM
@ Kaiserin Alzbeta Sissi: I guess there are some more paintings of young Ludovica by Stieler. But the one I posted in my last message is the only one I have ever seen of Ludovica as a child.

Me too, in fact there aren't too much images of Ludovika even older. Is a pity :-(
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 18, 2009, 04:21:29 PM
Quite a lot of photos though. I saw a few of her as a very old woman. She looked very dried up...Like a raisin and looked tiny in old age.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 19, 2009, 03:13:53 AM
I just came across another painting by August von Heckel showing Ludovica as a child with her parents and sisters in Bad Kreuth. Maybe someone possesses "Bayerns Königshaus" or "Bayerns Königinnen" by Martha Schad and is able to scan it. Sorry, I'm too busy at the moment.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 19, 2009, 01:52:33 PM

(http://home.arcor.de/ciolla/maxjoseph_fam01.jpg)

Max I. Joseph and Caroline with Ludovica, Sophie and Marie (red dresses), Elisabeth and Amalie (blue dresses).
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 20, 2009, 09:59:35 AM
This painting is sooo lovely!!!!! In this days the families were soooo big, she also had a lot
of children!!
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 20, 2009, 11:29:47 AM
A family of many girls.

Caroline also gave birth to two sons, a still born child in 1799 and a little boy called Maximilian Joseph Karl Friedrich in 1800 who died at the age of 3.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 20, 2009, 01:41:02 PM
Yes. Caroline also cared for the baby boy that was her stepson. They had a good relationship unlike with Ludwig I.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 20, 2009, 05:22:04 PM
Yes. Caroline also cared for the baby boy that was her stepson. They had a good relationship unlike with Ludwig I.

You mean Carl Theodor, Maximilian's son by his first wife Auguste? Yes, he was only two years old when his father remarried.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 21, 2009, 12:05:12 PM
Indeed. They did get along fine. However there is no mention about his relationships with his siblings and half-siblings (Ludovika included).
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on November 21, 2009, 03:17:28 PM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/1133.jpg)

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/2378.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 21, 2009, 03:53:08 PM
Indeed. They did get along fine. However there is no mention about his relationships with his siblings and half-siblings (Ludovika included).

Well, Karl Theodor was Ludovica's favourite brother (she had the choise between him and Ludwig) and she also made him godfather of her son Carl Theodor.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 21, 2009, 04:05:30 PM
Sissi and her sisters look more than Maximilian, in his images as a young man, he looks more
than them
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 24, 2009, 02:34:15 PM
I think that he wasn't a common man. In fact many Wittelsbachs had strange behaviours
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 24, 2009, 02:36:36 PM
Indeed. It runs in the family. I think Carl Theodor, Sisi's brother was almost "normal".
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 24, 2009, 02:47:23 PM
Many Wittelsbachs were even farer becoming crazy, is a pity. Sissi knew that perfectly being
worried all her life for her mental health and blaming to the Wittelsbach blood for it
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 28, 2009, 01:15:53 PM
How was the relationship of the Empress Sissi with his father the last years of his life? I've
heard that Sissi had a bad relationship with him and that she refused to go to his burial saying
that her health didn't let her to go
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 28, 2009, 01:18:18 PM
Perhaps. I know the other sisters did attend the burial.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 28, 2009, 01:21:54 PM
I would like to know what made Sissi to have a bad relatinship with her father
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 28, 2009, 01:25:19 PM
Sentiments. I think Sisi's was closer to her "Mutti" and her own marriage problems made her more sympathetic to her mother's situation with her father.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 28, 2009, 02:42:41 PM
I'm sure that Sissi loved her mother much more than her father, in fact I've read that Ludovika was
considered an excellent mother for all her children
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 28, 2009, 02:44:46 PM
She was more loving than her sister Archduchess Sofie. Yet she did not understand her children.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 28, 2009, 02:52:08 PM
Ludovika was sweeter and wanted tpo understand them.
Sophie was domineering even if her choices affected the happiness of her children
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 28, 2009, 02:53:19 PM
Indeed. Ludovika was close to her children and travel with them often.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 29, 2009, 12:57:00 PM
Archduchess Maximilian. He was a handsome fellow

(http://i46.tinypic.com/ta69o0.jpg)

Another one that im not sure but looks like him

(http://i49.tinypic.com/mkfckx.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 29, 2009, 12:59:41 PM
Her daughters inherited her beauty from their father ;-)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 29, 2009, 01:03:20 PM
Yup, in special  Marie Sophie
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 29, 2009, 01:13:16 PM
Indeed true!!! But in fact the five sisters have a lot of similar features on their faces ;-D
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 29, 2009, 02:09:22 PM
Even the sons too, especially the eldest son.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 29, 2009, 04:54:30 PM

Another one that im not sure but looks like him

(http://i49.tinypic.com/mkfckx.jpg)

This is not Max. But you are right, this man resembles him a lot.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2009, 12:50:09 PM
Even the sons too, especially the eldest son.

that's true, the only of his sons that doesn't look like him very much is Karl Theodor
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 30, 2009, 01:47:48 PM
Yes. He was blond and so was Sophie Charlotte.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2009, 01:57:23 PM
Yes, but Sophie Charlotte has the same face than her father and sisters, not to say the same about
Karl Theodor
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 30, 2009, 02:00:24 PM
He does too in a way. His elder brother had shaper features.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2009, 02:05:27 PM
But no as her other brother and sisters that had them in a great proportion, in fact, they don't look
very much like Ludovika
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 30, 2009, 02:13:18 PM
I think Max Emmanuel and Mathilde looked more like Ludovika.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2009, 02:22:59 PM
Yes! I would like to know who was the blond one on the family wich Karl Theodor and Sophie inherited
the blond hair. Were their parents blond? i don't think so
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 30, 2009, 02:30:48 PM
Yes! I would like to know who was the blond one on the family wich Karl Theodor and Sophie inherited
the blond hair. Were their parents blond? i don't think so

Max I., Ludovica's father.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2009, 02:33:35 PM
Yes, thanks!!! ;-)

Max I., Ludovica's father.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2009, 03:04:24 PM
She had more beautiful features than her sister, the Archduchess Sophie
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 30, 2009, 03:37:39 PM
beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I found superiorly beauty Elisabeth and Sophie than Ludovika.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 30, 2009, 03:50:24 PM
Ludovika looked lovely as a young woman.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 30, 2009, 04:48:32 PM
Ludovika looked lovely as a young woman.

Contemporaries said that Ludovica was even more beautiful than her daughters.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 30, 2009, 08:31:26 PM
Well. Her early portraits tell us that she was at least as beautiful as her daughters.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Princess Susan on December 31, 2009, 04:16:22 AM
Yes indeed, it was claimed, that she was even far more beutiful then any of her daughters, although it's also matter of taste.

(http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/Ludovika.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Princess Susan on December 31, 2009, 04:25:15 AM
She had more beautiful features than her sister, the Archduchess Sophie

I think Archduchess Sophie had beatiful features as a young girl too.
For example on these portraits she looks lovely:

(http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/Archsophie.jpg)

(http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/archducessophie.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 31, 2009, 08:28:00 AM
Elisabeth was also beautiful

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Joseph_Stieler_-_K%C3%B6nigin_Elisabeth_von_Preu%C3%9Fen%2C_nach_1843.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 31, 2009, 02:34:19 PM
She was. Too bad she was childless.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 05, 2010, 01:12:30 PM
The three sisters have similar features, the three were beautiful as young ladies
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 05, 2010, 01:29:18 PM
Yes. They were all beauties. It is sad that the later princesses from the main line were not as beautiful.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 05, 2010, 02:11:47 PM
I wonder if the only daughter of Sophie would be as beautiful as her mother or no...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 05, 2010, 02:16:46 PM
She looked beautiful as a little girl (in her few paintings) perhaps she would be a great beauty
as a young lady, but really I don't know, children change very much
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 05, 2010, 02:22:52 PM
The thing is that we would never know if she grew into a beauty.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 05, 2010, 02:50:59 PM
Yes. Not all the daughters of beutifula ladies are as beautiful as their mothers, so perhaps the Archduchess
Maria Ana wasn't the exception
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 05, 2010, 04:15:35 PM
Indeed...not all of Sophie's sons are handsome.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 06, 2010, 12:00:47 PM
Ludovika's daughters were mainly beautiful, what about the daughters of her other sister?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2010, 12:17:19 PM
Sophie has no surviving daughters, Elisabeth was childless. One sister who married the King of Saxony was also childless. The other gave birth to the sickly girls (one married Karl Theodor and another married Franz Josef's younger brother, another (Anna) married Ferdinand of Tuscany). Their half sister Augusta who married Napoleon's stepson also produced lovely daughters that included Josephine, Queen of Sweden and the Empress of brazil.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 06, 2010, 12:27:29 PM
Is a pity those sad stories. Perhaps if they could have daughters they would be pretty
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2010, 12:29:05 PM
Maybe...depend on the husbands too. Can't imagine a daughter looking like an ugly father...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 06, 2010, 12:33:30 PM
Yes, but sometimes there are beautiful children of normal (and even ugly parents) I imagine Elizabeth
Marie, best known as Erszi, her mother wasn't a beauty and her farther had a common face and their
daughter was a great beauty
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2010, 01:06:41 PM
Well...Stephanie's mother Queen Henriette of Belgium was a beauty and so does Sisi...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 06, 2010, 01:26:43 PM
Yes, this is totally true, is sure that she inherited her beauty of her beautiful grandmas
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2010, 01:40:55 PM
The gene pool is like lottery.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 11:25:47 AM
Yes, is difficult to know how a person can look like of all the members of the family
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2010, 11:38:19 AM
Indeed. Like none of Sisi's children inheirited her great beauty...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 11:55:17 AM
Gisela looks more an older Sissi, when her beauty was completely faded, Marie Valerie looks more
like Franz Joseph, Rudolph looked a bit like his mother and little Sophie died very young for know how she
would look as adult, many persons think that she would be a great beauty as adult and the only one of
Sissi's children to inherited her beauty, just based in her few paintings, but really is a mystery
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2010, 12:42:34 PM
With Sophie it is still speculation.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 01:05:07 PM
Nobody can know, she had an strange mix. She was blond (Sissi no) and had blue eyes (Sissi no, again)
so that features can belong to her Habsburg blood, I hope she wouldn't look like her father as adult :-S
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2010, 02:04:12 PM
Yes. A female version of Franz Josef.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 02:08:03 PM
But perhaps she could even inherit the beauty of Sissi or in any case the beauty of her grandmas
Ludovika and Sophie
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2010, 02:08:53 PM
No. Jusging from Gisela & Valerie...not a good chance.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 02:10:06 PM
In the best situation could happened that, in the worst to look like her sisters
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2010, 02:10:52 PM
Not encoraging.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 02:14:31 PM
Anyway, I think that Sissi's nieces looked more like her than her own daughters
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2010, 02:15:46 PM
Which one ?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 02:18:03 PM
She for example...
Princess Elisabeth
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/8/8f/Elisabethtundt.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2010, 02:19:22 PM
Yes. Only her and Gabrielle (daughter of Karl Theodor).
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 02:20:39 PM
They're totally like Sissi, they could look like her daughters
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2010, 02:22:10 PM
But then there is Elisabeth of belgium and Maria Theresa of Naples who does not look like her daughter ast all.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 10, 2010, 01:08:27 PM
I read that the Duke Max had black slaves... is it true?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on January 10, 2010, 01:40:37 PM
Yes, he bought 4 Africans in Kairo. Sisi bought a slave, too. That´s not nice. Sisi thought she were a slave, but hmmmmm
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 10, 2010, 03:52:00 PM
A slave to her hair and fame ! The black Moors were baptized by Duke Max. The little one given to Valerie was soon dumped by her.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on January 10, 2010, 04:09:01 PM
 Re Post # 153 of "Eric_Lowe" : " The little one given to Valerie was soon dumped by her." Do I recall correctly that there is an existing photograph of these two mentioned in the previous posting (#153) playing a board game?  It has been quite awhile, and possibly I have mistaken the identity of the female player.   AP
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on January 10, 2010, 04:21:21 PM
Did you think of this picture of Marie Valérie and Rustimo?

http://nd01.blog.cz/276/410/2a8d4cabcc_40489975_o2.jpg (http://nd01.blog.cz/276/410/2a8d4cabcc_40489975_o2.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on January 10, 2010, 04:26:39 PM
 Attention:  " MarieCharlotte" and your post # 155 :  I did indeed.  Thank you very much for your prompt response.  Regards,  AP
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 10, 2010, 05:57:34 PM
Yes. Valerie later lost interest in him. Poor guy.  :(
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Paola on January 11, 2010, 12:30:47 PM
Indeed. Like none of Sisi's children inheirited her great beauty...


Yes. And Nene despite the least attractive from the sisters she had the most elegant and lovely daughters from all.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 11, 2010, 02:22:12 PM
Nene had a kind of dark beauty which was spoilt by her razor sharp features (her eldest brother Ludwig also looked like that). Actually both her daughters seemed to resemble her husband.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on January 11, 2010, 02:31:47 PM
That´s true. Both are female copies of him. Albert looks like the mother.


(http://i48.tinypic.com/2ir6ujp.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on January 11, 2010, 02:41:50 PM
(http://i46.tinypic.com/2ufepox.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 11, 2010, 02:44:46 PM
Indeed ! Thanks for the comparison ! It make the features clear. It was sad for Nene that both children resembling her beloved Max died young...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 11, 2010, 03:15:51 PM
Thanks for the info about Duke Max's slaves. I rememeber to read that the people looked them
like strange things and obviously they noticed that.
Sissi felt inspired too with having a slave, but in those days slavery was not allowed. Poor Rustimo
he was finally left like a thing, and thanks for the photo of them Marie Charlotte, I haven't seen it
for a long while!!! ;-)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 11, 2010, 06:57:32 PM
Duke Max found nothing wrong in bringing them to Germany, baptising them in the church and let them go free.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 12, 2010, 12:22:36 PM
Yes. Sissi also baptised Rustimo, his name was Rudolphe because the Crown Prince was his
Godfather, of course the slave couldn't have the same name than the Crown Prince and took that
verssion of it. He wasn't as lucky as Duke Max's slaves
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 12, 2010, 12:37:55 PM
He was only a playmate for Valerie. He outlived his usefulness...Sad.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 12, 2010, 12:49:42 PM
Poor, he died alone when his playmate was happily married and a new mother
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 12, 2010, 03:39:07 PM
That is the fate of royal hang ons.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 13, 2010, 12:13:52 PM
Poor boy.
Also I remeber that the official reason of leaving him was because in those days he was a teenager
and he started being incorrect with the ladies and they decided to made him go.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 13, 2010, 02:54:40 PM
Like Michael Jackson in a way...but much less talented. He was Emmanuel Lewis & Coleman rolled into one...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on March 09, 2010, 10:51:05 AM
Ludovikas mourning jewels

(http://i42.tinypic.com/qyxycg.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 09, 2010, 11:08:42 AM
Lovely !  :)  Where did you find it ? Was it made out of jet (like those of Queen Mary) or onyx ?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on March 09, 2010, 11:29:21 AM
It´s jet!
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 09, 2010, 12:05:11 PM
Thanks. was it auctioned or in a museum ?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 09, 2010, 02:38:53 PM
They're wonderful, yes... where are they located?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on March 09, 2010, 02:47:26 PM
It was sold on the Thurn und Taxis auction 1993. I don´t who bought it. But it´was in the Thurn und Taxis family.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 09, 2010, 03:03:11 PM
OK. Thanks for the information Rani
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 09, 2010, 03:41:21 PM
Thanks. I know where to find that catalogue. :-)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 09, 2010, 03:55:37 PM
Ludovica with Ludwig, Helene and Elisabeth

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2m2xfnt.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 09, 2010, 04:09:23 PM
Sorry to say that this has been posted before. However I personally do not mind seeing it again and thanks for sharing.  :)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 09, 2010, 04:44:14 PM
Illustration of Maximilian and Ludovika courtesy of the ONB

(http://i42.tinypic.com/6tk0na.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 10, 2010, 02:47:47 PM
Does that illustration represent some important event (wedding anniversary...)? or no?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 10, 2010, 03:31:01 PM
it says something below the illustration but i cant read german =(
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 11, 2010, 01:19:34 AM
it says something below the illustration but i cant read german =(

The caption says: Herzog Max und seine Gemahlin Herzogin Ludovika in Bayern. (Duke Max and his wife Duchess Ludovika in Bavaria.)

The newspaper was published in September 1878. The couple married in September 1828, so they had been married for 50 years in 1878. It was their golden wedding anniversary.
By the way: The newspaper was published in Leipzig, Saxony. It seems like Max and Ludovika were well-known there as well.

I don't like the picture very much. Ludovika looks like being fat.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 11, 2010, 02:46:04 PM
Thanks for the translation Marie Charlotte!! ;-)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on April 28, 2010, 11:01:27 AM
Ludovika "Louise"

(http://i43.tinypic.com/qxnuwi.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on April 28, 2010, 03:08:54 PM
Very beautiful portrait oy young Ludovika, where is it now?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 28, 2010, 06:23:16 PM
I agree...beautiful ! Auctioned ?  ???
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 29, 2010, 02:57:26 AM
It's a nice portrait, but not a good one. I don't think it resembles her a lot.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on April 29, 2010, 07:34:39 AM
i agree. Beautiful image but doesnt looks like ludovica at all (and that kinda pisses me off. I love accurate portraits)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 29, 2010, 08:23:40 AM
i agree. Beautiful image but doesnt looks like ludovica at all (and that kinda pisses me off. I love accurate portraits)

Haha. :-)

The caption says "Louise Herzogin von Bayern Gemahlin Prinz Maximilian" (Louise Duchess of Bavaria Wife Prince Maximilian) - and this is completely wrong. Ludovica was a Duchess in Bavaria and her husband Max has never been a prince, but a duke. Assuming that the painter was also responsible for the frame, it's no wonder that the woman doesn't resemble Ludovica a lot.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on April 29, 2010, 08:30:45 AM
hahah that says a lot! ;-)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yseult on April 29, 2010, 10:27:44 AM
i agree. Beautiful image but doesnt looks like ludovica at all (and that kinda pisses me off. I love accurate portraits)

Haha. :-)

The caption says "Louise Herzogin von Bayern Gemahlin Prinz Maximilian" (Louise Duchess of Bavaria Wife Prince Maximilian) - and this is completely wrong. Ludovica was a Duchess in Bavaria and her husband Max has never been a prince, but a duke. Assuming that the painter was also responsible for the frame, it's no wonder that the woman doesn't resemble Ludovica a lot.

I usually agree with Katenka and yourself, Marie. But this time I have my doubts. I see a resemblance between this lady and the portraits I´ve seen of young princesses Amalie and Sophie, the two of them sisters of Ludovika. But -of course- this could be a casualty...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on April 29, 2010, 11:43:50 AM
On the auction site, they wrote that´s a Stieler. But Stieler painted better.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 29, 2010, 11:57:18 AM
i agree. Beautiful image but doesnt looks like ludovica at all (and that kinda pisses me off. I love accurate portraits)

Haha. :-)

The caption says "Louise Herzogin von Bayern Gemahlin Prinz Maximilian" (Louise Duchess of Bavaria Wife Prince Maximilian) - and this is completely wrong. Ludovica was a Duchess in Bavaria and her husband Max has never been a prince, but a duke. Assuming that the painter was also responsible for the frame, it's no wonder that the woman doesn't resemble Ludovica a lot.

I usually agree with Katenka and yourself, Marie. But this time I have my doubts. I see a resemblance between this lady and the portraits I´ve seen of young princesses Amalie and Sophie, the two of them sisters of Ludovika. But -of course- this could be a casualty...

Oh, in my opinion it could be Ludovica, of course, because there are some similarities (colour and style of her hair) to other paintings of the Duchess I've seen before. Mabe the painter was just a bad one. I don't think it was done by Stieler by the way.

Just to compare:

(http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/9748/1808ludovika.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on April 29, 2010, 11:59:56 AM
i also think its ludovika and as Marie Charlotte, i think the painter (the portrait and the description of it),  honestly sucks.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on April 29, 2010, 03:53:53 PM
She is Ludovika, but it isn't her best portrait...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 30, 2010, 05:34:11 PM
I agree...the likeness is not perfect. But look at the portraits of Elizabeth I, she look different in many of them...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Marc on April 30, 2010, 08:03:14 PM
Is there any good portrait of Max,similar to posted one of Ludowika?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 02, 2010, 12:36:57 PM
Actually quite a few...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on May 02, 2010, 01:33:11 PM
Actually quite a few...

Two years ago, I went to an exhibtition about Empress Elisabeth in Unterwittelsbach near Augsburg. One of the rooms was dedicated to Max and Ludovica. I saw at least three nice portraits of Duke Max. If you are interested in them, Marc, I could post the photos I took there.

In my books I couldn't find any colour portrait showing Max. There is of course the one of Max and Ludovica by Stieler which was painted in occasion of their wedding in 1828. But a portrait of Max in colour ... Hmm ... Eric, where did you see or find them? In books?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 02, 2010, 02:07:17 PM
Not in colour...mostly prints and old photos.  :(
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on May 02, 2010, 05:04:19 PM
Not in colour...mostly prints and old photos.  :(

Oh, I see. It was a misunderstanding. Marc asked for portraits.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 02, 2010, 05:30:05 PM
Not much...however there might be some hidden in the family. If you think about the many prints of Max, some of them could have been based on actual portraits...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 11, 2010, 02:59:27 PM
a great picture of Ludovica

http://www.the-eastern-window.com/galleries/kaiserhaus/kai-30.html

Check thw whole gallery, is awesome!
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 12, 2010, 09:17:50 AM
Yes...although quite a lot of aristocrats thrown in with the royals. the fancy dresses and costumes are amazing.  :)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on May 12, 2010, 09:54:13 AM
Great photo! She reminds me the archduchess Sophie on it! ;-)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on May 12, 2010, 10:57:43 AM
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2zyaasg.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 13, 2010, 01:35:00 PM
Ludovika do look like her sisters in old age.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: THERRY on May 17, 2010, 03:17:28 AM
Ludovica (scan from E. Bestenreiner book )
(http://i42.tinypic.com/293zqqb.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on May 17, 2010, 03:27:47 AM
Ludovica (scan from E. Bestenreiner book )

We have already talked about this picture. It's definitely not Ludovica. Bestenreiner is known to make mistakes in her books.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: THERRY on May 17, 2010, 03:30:35 AM
Ops ! Sorry I don't know. Thank you for the correction
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Svetabel on May 17, 2010, 03:44:34 AM
Ludovica (scan from E. Bestenreiner book )

We have already talked about this picture. It's definitely not Ludovica. Bestenreiner is known to make mistakes in her books.

That's Klothilde of Coburg I think.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on May 17, 2010, 04:12:00 AM
That's Klothilde of Coburg I think.

That's what I thought, too.

Therry, never mind. Thanks for sharing anyway. :-)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 17, 2010, 11:28:02 AM
I think it was Amelia of Coburg, Max Emmanuel 's wife (sister of Klothilde). I remember seeing this photo in the Wittelsbach Archive in Munich.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Marc on May 25, 2010, 02:58:30 PM
Is there any chance that the girl in this portrait resembles any of the daughters of max and Ludowika?

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/mm.jpg)

For me,she has a similar face and specific hair,similar to the in Bayern sisters?Any idea?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 25, 2010, 03:49:24 PM
it looks like a "free interpretation" of Sophia od due sicilie.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Marc on May 25, 2010, 04:04:46 PM
The picture was not labeled,just reminded me on one of the daughters and just wanted to hear some other opinion...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 25, 2010, 04:08:02 PM
now looking closer im sure its Sophie (and im sure it was based in a picture i ve seen somewhere)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on May 25, 2010, 04:56:09 PM
Is there any chance that the girl in this portrait resembles any of the daughters of max and Ludowika?
For me,she has a similar face and specific hair,similar to the in Bayern sisters?Any idea?


Her nose reminds me of Maria of Naples. And Sophie had blue eyes.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on May 25, 2010, 06:27:50 PM
(http://i46.tinypic.com/xkrss3.jpg)

The lips!
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on May 25, 2010, 07:24:26 PM
Is she Marie?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Marc on May 25, 2010, 10:06:44 PM
So,it could really be Marie...Rani is right...the lips are very similar,plus hazel eyes as well as the nose...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 25, 2010, 11:02:25 PM
Yes. I think it was Maria Sofia.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 26, 2010, 07:09:34 AM
yes i confused names. I meant Marie not Sophie. Of course its marie, the portrait also has the cleft chin she had. ;-)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Veronica on May 26, 2010, 12:31:35 PM
I really like that portrait you posted Marc! It's a wonderful finding because I think it really captured her, instead of others I've seen...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Marc on May 26, 2010, 06:42:39 PM
Well,the portrait was not labeled at all,it was just my guess that it might be someone "of the family" and that's why I posted to hear opinion of others...because I was not sure!
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 27, 2010, 08:39:10 AM
Yes. The girls have double names : Maria Sofia & Sophie Charlotte.  ;)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 28, 2010, 08:05:29 PM
Ludovica (scan from E. Bestenreiner book )

We have already talked about this picture. It's definitely not Ludovica. Bestenreiner is known to make mistakes in her books.

which book?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: THERRY on May 29, 2010, 02:07:50 AM
From "Sisi und hire Geschwister " original 2003 version , but I have the italian editions " L'Imperatrice Sissi Storia e destino di Elisabetta d'Austria e dei suoi  fratelli "  :) :)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 29, 2010, 07:15:20 AM
^ thank you. is it a photo album like Kaiserin ELisabeth  und ihre Töchter" ?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 29, 2010, 01:03:06 PM
also, silly question, there the same books just one is in German and the other Italian?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: THERRY on May 30, 2010, 02:58:48 AM
Hello Mandie, the book is the same, one in German (original) and the other in Italian . It's a descriptive text with only a few photos  :-*
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 30, 2010, 03:03:30 AM
OH OK, i thought that but sometimes when they have different books translated, one is more updated sometimes.  ;)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: THERRY on May 30, 2010, 03:12:45 AM
You are welcome !  :)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on June 20, 2010, 04:37:19 PM
Wedding of Ludovika and Max 1828

(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad313/Isana1988/1828.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 20, 2010, 08:53:32 PM
Nice print.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 23, 2010, 03:19:12 PM
Thank you very much Rani! I thought that there aren't any pics of their wedding. Totally unknown for me :-0
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 23, 2010, 04:05:02 PM
No pics, but the print is usually to document with had taken place. Ludovika was after all a king's daughter...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 28, 2010, 03:38:06 PM
I said that becasue I haven't seen anything about their wedding, but perhaps there aren't too much available, she was indeed tyhe daughter of a king but was the one of her sisters who married the one with less important rank
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 28, 2010, 04:02:35 PM
Yes. Like the Earl of Wessex's marriage was less covered than Charles & Diana's.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on June 28, 2010, 05:04:52 PM
I said that becasue I haven't seen anything about their wedding, but perhaps there aren't too much available, she was indeed tyhe daughter of a king but was the one of her sisters who married the one with less important rank

This lithograph of Ludovica's wedding is the only one I have seen so far, but if you are interested in Empress Elisabeth and her family you should have come across it - at least in German speaking countries.

Duke Max wasn't an important person, but he we shouldn't forget that he was quite rich after he had sold his mother's properties in France.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 28, 2010, 05:24:58 PM
Well...being rich and being important is quite different. Duke Max still belonged to the "junior" line with limited previledges. As Sisi married into Austria, she found out how her Arenburg grandmother was scoffed upon in the court there.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on June 29, 2010, 02:55:02 AM
Well...being rich and being important is quite different. Duke Max still belonged to the "junior" line with limited previledges. As Sisi married into Austria, she found out how her Arenburg grandmother was scoffed upon in the court there.

But it's better to be unimportant and rich than to be unimportant and poor, isn't it!? :-)

As we all know, he was the most popular Wittelsbach family member of his time. Besides, Max was quite close to King Max I. and his family. Max I. was the duke's godfather, had an eye over his education and we should also keep in mind that Wilhelm, the first Duke in Bavaria, a man with a lot of influence at court, was his grandfather.

But, of course, you can't compare Max to the husbands of Ludovica's sisters, that's true. Nevertheless I don't like him to be marked as the "poor, unimportant Bavarian relative who lived at Lake Starnberg". I think he was a very intelligent, smart and progressive person - Elisabeth was definitely his daughter. :-)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 29, 2010, 10:57:25 AM
Yes...a bit crazy though for some people. For most of the royals, it is the duty to their country rather than the whims of their indiviual pleasures.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 29, 2010, 07:41:52 PM
Yes, its important also to have money (an advantage for someone with a low rank) but I knew that the Austrians thought that Sissi wasn't a worthy Empress for the low rank of his father...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 29, 2010, 07:44:47 PM
Not her father too much but her Arenburg grandmother (the one who had the money) was aristocracy only (not royalty).
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 30, 2010, 02:43:12 PM
Well, better to say for her ancestry... as you said right her grandmother. I wonder if her sister Helene would have the same threatment if she would became Empress of Austria. Let's return to the main topic: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovika
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 30, 2010, 03:31:41 PM
Exactly the same, but I think Nene would not let that trouble her. She wasn't that sensative. On the other hand, Ludovika herself did mind being the only sister not to marry high royalty.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 01, 2010, 06:18:27 PM
Well, Helene would had less problems with her mother in law, so the court perhaps wouldn't be as hard with her as it was with Sissi... anyways... back to topic
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 05, 2010, 01:58:07 PM
Old Ludovika and her dog
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Palace/Ludovika.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 05, 2010, 03:37:49 PM
Lovely ! A bigger version would be nice.  :)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 05, 2010, 03:47:42 PM
Me too, I wonder if anyone knows her age on that photo...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 05, 2010, 03:54:14 PM
that picture was posted in bigger somewhere in this forum. Im sure i saw it, i will look  for it.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 05, 2010, 04:05:42 PM
Thanks ! Appreciate it.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 05, 2010, 04:24:40 PM
a big bigger courtesy of Sissiweb

(http://i17.tinypic.com/6c6mwzq.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 05, 2010, 04:40:53 PM
Thanks ! The whole family loved dogs.  ;)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 06, 2010, 01:18:21 PM
Thank you so much Katenka! I agree, all of them loved pets
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 06, 2010, 01:30:11 PM
You re all welcome.

Ludovika and grandson Franz Josef, Carl Theodor`son

(http://i50.tinypic.com/30ble09.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 06, 2010, 01:36:05 PM
She looked that was a loving grandmother... Was she?
New for me :-)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 06, 2010, 03:03:11 PM
Yes she was more loving as grandmother than mother, even though Lodovika was reffered to lovingly as "Mutti" by her children.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on July 06, 2010, 04:15:51 PM
Yes she was more loving as grandmother than mother, even though Lodovika was reffered to lovingly as "Mutti" by her children.

Well, her children called her "Mimi".

In German "Mutti" is a more familiar form of the word "Mutter", which means "mother", but still the term "Mutti" is much more impersonal and distanced than "Mama" or "Mami", which means "Mom" or "Mommy". So if Ludovica's children had called her "Mutti", it wouldn't have been so "lovingly" ;-) at all.

Ludovica has never been an enthusiastic grandmother - with one exception: She adored her granddaughter Amélie, Carl Theodor's first child.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 07, 2010, 08:00:42 AM
Yup she did! here s an image of her and her favorite grandchild

(http://i48.tinypic.com/2eumkox.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on July 07, 2010, 10:36:05 AM
For a better version:

http://home.arcor.de/ciolla/ludovica_amelie02.jpg (http://home.arcor.de/ciolla/ludovica_amelie02.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 07, 2010, 10:47:06 AM
Thank you!! Amalie was a beautiful girl.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on July 07, 2010, 10:51:44 AM
Wedding of Ludovika and Max 1828

A picture I took of St. Quirinus, Tegernsee, where Ludovica and Max married:

(http://home.arcor.de/ciolla/tegernsee_schlosskirche.jpg)

A memorial plate of Ludovica's wedding in 1828:

(http://home.arcor.de/ciolla/tegernsee_tafel01.jpg)

A memorial plate of Amélie's wedding in 1892:

(http://home.arcor.de/ciolla/tegernsee_tafel02.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 07, 2010, 12:01:19 PM
Would love to visit there one day. Thanks for sharing the photos.  ;)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 07, 2010, 12:31:53 PM
Fantastic photos MarieCharlotte! It's a very beautiful place indeed, thank you sooo much!
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 07, 2010, 12:47:18 PM
Yes. I remember the famous telegram of "Mimi, arriviing with Spatz and grathel (not sure if the right spelling)" which meant Ludovika, Mathilde and Maximilan.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on July 07, 2010, 02:32:11 PM
Yes. I remember the famous telegram of "Mimi, arriviing with Spatz and grathel (not sure if the right spelling)" which meant Ludovika, Mathilde and Maximilan.

Gackel was Carl Theodor's nickname. In Bavarian dialect a cockerel is called "Gickerl" and what he does is "gackern" (to cackle). So, when Ludovica and her children Spatz (engl. sparrow) and Gackel arrived, everyone thought that the duchess took animals with her. :-)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 07, 2010, 02:43:28 PM
Yes. They expect a woman named "Mimi" arriving with animals. It is that they took their nicknames very seriously unlike others who with have used HIH, HRH or HSH...more formal tones even with close family members.  ;)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on July 10, 2010, 12:01:37 PM
(http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad313/Isana1988/01143535.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 10, 2010, 06:13:31 PM
A happy picture of "Mimi"  ;)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on July 11, 2010, 02:26:57 PM
She looks quite degenerated to me.....
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on July 11, 2010, 02:35:21 PM
She is just old.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 12, 2010, 10:12:32 AM
She seemed to have a wide mouth. I do have some doubts that she was the best looking of the sisters. Some of the children's beauty might have come from Max's side of the family.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 12, 2010, 10:13:28 AM
Me too. Is just to see pictures and portraits of the twins. They were (in my opinion) WAY beautiful than Ludovika.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 12, 2010, 10:18:03 AM
Yes. Especially Sophie was rumored to be the best looking one.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 03, 2010, 02:28:40 PM
Ludovika
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/ludovika1.jpg)
with Karl Theodor's family
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/ludovika.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 03, 2010, 04:12:16 PM
I think the girls were Sophie & Marie Gabriella.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 03, 2010, 05:08:19 PM
I think the girls were Sophie & Marie Gabriella.

No. ;-)

Marie José, Carl Theodor, Ludovica, Archduke Carl Ludwig and Sophie in front of Possenhofen.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 03, 2010, 05:50:52 PM
Well...at least I got Sophie right ! :-P
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on February 14, 2011, 10:11:59 AM
Is there any chance that the girl in this portrait resembles any of the daughters of max and Ludowika?

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/mm.jpg)

For me,she has a similar face and specific hair,similar to the in Bayern sisters?Any idea?


(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/tut.jpg)

This portait hung in St. Emmeram.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Marc on February 16, 2011, 08:28:55 PM
How interesting...I spotted unidentified portrait and recognized that it must be some of "the sisters"...Thanks Rani!
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Rani on February 17, 2011, 02:21:50 PM
You´re welcome!  ;)

I just saw the detail by accident. Prince Albert admired the Bavarian family. Everywhere photos and paintings of his uncles and aunts.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Veronica on May 18, 2011, 06:09:15 PM
Duke Max

(http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/3215/copiademaxpadredesisi33.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: José on May 20, 2011, 01:04:01 PM
Dis Ludovika have a good relationship with her daughter-in-law Infanta D. Maria José ?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Zukunftsseele on June 19, 2011, 06:49:15 AM
A late picture of Duke Max:
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/zukunftsseele/Pf14695C32-1.jpg)

This is supposed to be Ludovica but I'm not sure. The text said it was her.
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/zukunftsseele/luise.jpg)

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/zukunftsseele/ludovika-wilhelmine-1808-1892-duca-max-josef-in-bayern-1808-1888.jpg)

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/zukunftsseele/louise_max.jpg)

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/zukunftsseele/alt45-1.jpg)

Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on March 07, 2013, 07:57:14 AM
Hello,
does anybody know who the photographed girl beside Duke Maximilian/Max in Bavaria (father of empress Elizabeth of Austria) is ?

Greetings Alice


The woman could be one of Max illegitimate daughters, he had a few...
Neither is she Elisabeth, Helene, Marie, Mathilde or Sophie in Bavaria.

I was thinking the same thing, I wonder how many where there and what where their names?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: José on March 10, 2013, 12:55:32 PM
Did Max recognize any of them ?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Marie Valerie on March 11, 2013, 11:51:25 AM
Duke Max preferred his illegitimate children.
Only they were allowed to dinner with him, his in Bavaria children were not.

That is all I know about that topic.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: José on March 28, 2013, 03:46:03 PM
I've googled in search of Maximilian's illegitimate chidren.

Several sites say they had many illegitimate children but not in a single one could I trace any names, dates of birth/death, weddings or successors.

Did he provide for his illegitimate children, bearing in mind what Marie Valerie says that these were his favourite children ?

I always thought Sissi was his favourite - perhaps among the legitimate.

Can someone give a list of his illegitimate children ?

Thanks in advance
José
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 28, 2013, 06:56:31 PM
not much info. Haven't saw a picture of any of them in any bio...at least in English.
Title: The duke's illegitimate children
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 29, 2013, 09:54:18 AM
That's a really interesting topic. Although I've bought each book, magazine and newspaper I was able to find within the last 15 years, I couldn't pick up much information about Maximilian's illegatimate children. By the way, he didn't seem to have any illegitimate sons, because in books there has unexceptionally been the talk of "daughters".

It seems to be confirmed that Max used to have dinner with these daughters. Also Brigitte Hamann mentioned that in her biography about Elisabeth.

Strange enough, Duke Max turned to be some kind of maverick in his later years. He lived in his rooms in the Maxpalais in Munich and didn't want to see neither his family nor most of the servants. Marie Redwitz, Duchess Amélie's lady-in-waiting, saw him for the first time when he was lying on his deathbed.

Marie Larisch - well, it's up to you if you believe in her stories - told that Marie of Naples wanted to see her father shortly before his death. When she was on her way to him, she met "one of the duke's illegitimate daughters he loved so much" on the stairs and talked to her. If this is the truth, Max's illegitimate daughters were allowed to enter the palais and they got to know the duke's legitimate children. Besides, it seems like the duke favoured his illegitimate daughters also in old age and has kept close contact to them over the years.

I've never come across any names or birth dates. That's a pity!
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 29, 2013, 10:48:22 AM
Dis Ludovika have a good relationship with her daughter-in-law Infanta D. Maria José ?

Duke Carl Theodor was heartbroken after his beloved first wife Princess Sophie had died. It was hard for Ludovica to see her favourite son suffer so much. Besides, she wasn't happy about the fact that he couldn't make up his mind to marry again.

In 1873, Marie and Francesco of Naples convinced Carl Theodor to have a look at Marie José. The young Infanta and her mother stayed with some relatives in Offenbach, when they met the former king and Carl Theodor in the park - by accident, of course ... After a long and nice conversation, Carl Theodor proposed to Marie José, but the Infanta wanted to have some time to think about an engagement. We have to keep in mind that the duke was much older than Marie José. Carl Theodor was disappointed, but in early 1874 Marie José said "yes".

Ludovica liked Marie José very much. It's also a nice fact that Marie José's father Miguel of Braganza was Ludovica's first love she was refused to marry. Most of the time, Ludovica lived with her son and his family. That's why we have quite a lot of photos showing the old duchess and some of Carl Theodor's children.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 29, 2013, 12:08:20 PM
Thats a nice story! Maria Jose and Carl Theodor are one of my favorite royal couples!

Thanks so much, Marie Charlotte and Welcome back!!

BTW  , talking about illegitimate daughters of Max, do you think this lady posing with him is one of them?

Hello,
does anybody know who the photographed girl beside Duke Maximilian/Max in Bavaria (father of empress Elizabeth of Austria) is ?

Greetings Alice

(http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/6958/42e3a7eeb69bf6a53812294.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/42e3a7eeb69bf6a53812294.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 29, 2013, 01:38:48 PM
This photo is totally new to me Carolath!! (X_X) I think that that she is actually one of Duke Max's beloved illegitimate daughters. There is a strong resemblance  of the lady and the Duke (she has a Wittelsbach look) but I don't think that she is any of his five legitimate daughters (she doesn't look like any of them). I wonder who was her mother and what was her name (as well as all related to her life).

Quote
I always thought Sissi was his favourite - perhaps among the legitimate.

I've read in some old books that Duke Max was very fond of Sissi (they shared many activities and time together) but I wonder if he was even more fond of his ilegitimate daughters.
Any idea of how many illegitimate daughters he had?
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 29, 2013, 02:44:24 PM
It was for auction a month ago among the new images of Sissi ;-) .

I also think that s one of his illegitimate daughters, tho some say its, in fact, Elisabeth! (there are certain resemblance, but not so much )
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 29, 2013, 07:14:17 PM
Too bad. I don't think it was Sisi but her illegitimate half sister.

Too bad not much is known about her and her other "sisters" (since it was mentioned  Duke Max's daughters). :-(
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 30, 2013, 04:34:27 AM
BTW  , talking about illegitimate daughters of Max, do you think this lady posing with him is one of them?

Well, I did some research on the photographer Franz Weisbrod. He worked in Frankfurt / Main, not in Munich. His photographs had the signature "F. Weisbrod, phot.", since the early 1870s you read "F. Weisbrod, Nachfolger" on the photos. The German word "Nachfolger" means "successor", so I guess since then his son or someone who assumed his photo atelier took the pictures.

To sum up: The photo of Max and this woman was obviously taken in Frankfurt before 1870. So I thought of family connections between Munich and Frankfurt. There is Mathilde of Hessen-Darmstadt, of course, but in my opinion it can't be her.

Although it would be great to have a pic of one of Maximilian's illegitimate daughters, I can't imagine that the duke took one of these daughters to an atelier in Frankfurt (why not Munich?) to take some photos ... He was a liberal mind, of course, but if he had taken his illegitimate daughters into public, I guess we would know much more about them now.

Besides, we have to keep in mind that Max was still married to Ludovica, sister and aunt of many kings and queens, and that he was the father of the Empress of Austria. I guess, in the 19th century there would have been a public outcry if Max had appeared somewhere with his illegitimate daughter. No chance.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 30, 2013, 09:21:57 PM
I think Duke Max would have done so. Perhaps this illegitimate daughter got married to a man living in Frankfurt ? I think we need to do more research before we can cross this possibility off.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on April 02, 2013, 02:50:11 PM

To sum up: The photo of Max and this woman was obviously taken in Frankfurt before 1870. So I thought of family connections between Munich and Frankfurt. There is Mathilde of Hessen-Darmstadt, of course, but in my opinion it can't be her.

Although it would be great to have a pic of one of Maximilian's illegitimate daughters, I can't imagine that the duke took one of these daughters to an atelier in Frankfurt (why not Munich?) to take some photos ... He was a liberal mind, of course, but if he had taken his illegitimate daughters into public, I guess we would know much more about them now.

Besides, we have to keep in mind that Max was still married to Ludovica, sister and aunt of many kings and queens, and that he was the father of the Empress of Austria. I guess, in the 19th century there would have been a public outcry if Max had appeared somewhere with his illegitimate daughter. No chance.

So, is it possible that the lady portrayed is a far niece or cousin of the Duke? She is indeed related to Duke Maximilian, there is a strong resemblance between them!!! Or isn't there a possibility of the photo being taken for remain strictly private? I mean the Duke took this photo posing with his alleged illegitimate daughter but didn't want that it could be made public... but as you said I think that this option isn't much likely :-/
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on April 02, 2013, 03:35:35 PM
As far as i know Max was the only child of his parents so a close niece, it couldnt be.

Its very confusing, but also very interesting this mystery around this image. Loooove it!
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 02, 2013, 04:27:02 PM
I think that was a private photo. It hasn't surfaced in any books until now.
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on April 02, 2013, 08:14:24 PM
As far as i know Max was the only child of his parents so a close niece, it couldnt be.

This is true, Maximilian did not have siblings, that's why I thought that she could be a veeery far relative... but the likeness bewteen the woman and the Duke is really impressive! The idea of the private photo sounds well but in the other hand I think that it could be a bit risky (not only for what Marie Charlotte said but also someone could have find it and made it public).... It's really difficult to find a solution for this mystery :-/
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 02, 2013, 09:28:47 PM
Not only that but even Ludovika and Sisi knew that Max loved his illegitimate daughters the best of all. So a private photo with his daughter in a studio in Frankfurt (where the girl may be been married ) should make perfect common sense.  I don't think it is more risky than the brother of the Austrian Emperor caught in drag. That would have been a real embarrassment had it been made public, but yet the photo surfaced...
Title: Re: Duke Max and Duchess Ludovica (née Princess of Bavaria) in Bavaria - Empress Elisabeth's parents
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 19, 2018, 03:43:47 PM
Equestrian portrait of both Maximilian and Ludovika, 1833, by Heinrich von Mayr: Here (https://78.media.tumblr.com/af4e9ceecbc6c20122c71df97e6203ff/tumblr_p8qete6eDX1v1oo6no1_640.jpg)