Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Dimitri on April 26, 2004, 10:40:20 AM

Title: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Dimitri on April 26, 2004, 10:40:20 AM
This thread will combine all of the information about Pig's Meadow.   edited by Alixz 05/27/09




Is it possible that Alexis and Marie survived their families murder as their bodies have never been found?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: JM on April 26, 2004, 01:50:43 PM
Well anything is possible.

Is it likely? I don't think so. It's hard to imagine the Bolsheviks going to great lengths to plan and carry out a murder and then simply forget or fail to kill two of them. It was such an important "mission" to these creeps and I'm sure they didn't take it lightly. There is also the testimony of the guards, etc.

There are still questions however. After all, anything is possible and we don't know where the bodies are.

Has any effort been made recently to find the bodies of Alexei and Anastasia?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 26, 2004, 11:54:33 PM
Quote
Well anything is possible.

Is it likely? I don't think so. It's hard to imagine the Bolsheviks going to great lengths to plan and carry out a murder and then simply forget or fail to kill two of them. It was such an important "mission" to these creeps and I'm sure they didn't take it lightly. There is also the testimony of the guards, etc.

There are still questions however. After all, anything is possible and we don't know where the bodies are.

Has any effort been made recently to find the bodies of Alexei and Anastasia?


AFAIK, there were efforts made throughout the 1990's to find the two missing bodies where they were supposed to be. Nothing was found.

I think it very likely that the Bolsheviks lost two corpses. This is the most likely source of all the "survivor" rumors. Beyond this, everything seems speculative.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Glebb on May 15, 2004, 08:32:31 AM
According to what I've read, the Russian scientists believe that the missing skeletons are those of Alexei and Maria.

An American forensics expert believes that the missing female skeleton is that of Anastasia because all of the vertebrae of the skeletons found had reached full maturity by the time of the massacre.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 15, 2004, 01:13:08 PM
And my opinion is - it will be impossible to know for certain which of the 4 girls went missing that night until we find the 4th. There has been the least suspicion it is Olga, and the most it was Anastasia. But, the claimants have pretty much concetrated on Alexis and Anastasia.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Belochka on May 21, 2004, 03:06:49 AM
I wonder when the survival myth will end?

Since fragments were found there is nothing unrealistic to suggest that two bodies may have actually disintegrated into minute fragments or were subsequently inadvertently disposed of during the various visitations to the burial site.

The site was severely tampered with on all occassions, starting with the process of disposal. When some fragments were found and removed by Sokolov in 1918, then I believe the physical contamination of the site commenced at that time. Are we really certain that others did not follow the same path of discovery before Avdonin did in 1979?

The amateur and crude digging techniques conducted by Avdonin and Kuchurov along with all the problems they encountered only compounded the serial disposal of forensic material.

The final exhumation procedure is known to have been handled without due care and skill. The uplift of material was compromised by procedural crudity.

Instead of preserving the site in situ as the situation should have commanded, precious material was continually being lost with each successive exposure. The site had lost its integrity completely, thereby jeopardizing any complete and true scientific analysis.

With all the site investigations conducted since 1918 how could one logically expect that all the skeletons would ever be preserved in their entirety?

:o
 

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Belochka on May 24, 2004, 05:09:44 AM
I have read the Knight paper closely. I have no argument with their methodology or the results obtained. The chain of command is not disputed.  

Is their any thought for the Knight team to now analyze all the individual female samples v Elizabeth's? To my mind this next phase would be the next logical step.

Surely we could expect compatibility with at least 4 of the samples using Elizabeth as the known control. If the parent samples are so contaminated then despite any amplification techniques, it would be impossible to determine whether any of the relics were Romanovs or their female retainers.

Could you please post the Gill paper here as well. I would like to compare the two methodologies, the actual profiles obtained and understand their discussion as they fully presented it to the world?


Thanks for your help.

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Belochka on May 25, 2004, 01:47:17 AM


Thanks for the reference. Previously I only had a copy of the abstract.

It is difficult to alter one's mindset that such scientific errors could have come about from the very scientist who with Jeffreys first devized DNA profiling for forensic applications. However I do appreciate that after some 10 years, technology advances to such a degree that results ascertained in the past are always subject to peer scrutiny and may even become invalidated.

What we learn from the Stanford paper is that the original analysis has placed the origin Gill results into considerable doubt. There is lack of concurrence between the two laboratories. Because of the fundamental inability to reproduce Gill's results, even setting aside the questionable forensic processes, the absence of the all important chain of command, the real contention should now fundamentally be based (no pun intended) on the size of the DNA fragment originally extracted by Gill. It is because of the reasonable doubt now placed in our minds, as identified by the Stanford laboratory, and on this basis alone Gill's results should be set aside.

Assuming that we now accept the Stanford findings, then we are left with the essential question as to whose skeletal remains were discovered? We should also be reminded that the region was a Civil War zone.

Furthermore could this then explain why there have always been two skeletons missing? Could this site be not what it really seems?


With the burial of the relics in SPb, all the expense and the all important symbolism which has flowed from that ceremony can not now be undone.

While the world also waits for DNA authentication as to whether Alexander I is actually buried in SPb, then it can only be presumed that we will have to remain a little more patient until the scientific community can unify first concerning the more recent remains.

What we are then left with today is uncertainty on on side concerning the authenticity of a number of Romanov relics and closure on the other side. How very Russian!


 ;)
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Reed on May 25, 2004, 11:47:36 AM
Not being a scientist and having to accept the opinions and proofs given me by the experts, I can now understand why there are basically two definite viewpoints on the validity of the remains.  My question would be, was there not solid evidence found at the burial site to support the assumption that this was the site of the imperial families burial?  Such as metals, jewels, some fragment of cloth...anything that could be used as supporting evidence?  Or was the investigation so poorly handled that the site may have been contaminated as well?????   ???
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Reed on May 25, 2004, 11:57:44 AM

Where could one get a copy of the Knight paper??  Is there no documentation of what was found during the Soviet's investigation?  I still find it hard to believe that no other evidence was found except for the skeletons...something underneath one of them...etc.  Maybe I'm too ignorant of the method used to exhume the bodies.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: KatieAnn on July 29, 2004, 05:07:51 AM
I remember watching the live broadcast from Russia on the burial of the Imperial Family.  The 2 members of the family who remained unburied were given as Alexei and Marie.  Anastasia's remains were definitely interred along with those of her sisters and parents.  The servants remains' were buried first, then the remains of Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana and Anastasia were lowered into the grave.  Space was still left for the "bodies" of the other 2 children, which still haven't been found.  I also recall reading the Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, gave a blood sample in order that his DNA be compared to the bones that were found.  He's a relative of Alexandra's through his mother - and also of Nicholas through his Greek/Danish heritage.  There was a bit in the papers here (I'm using my memory here and the dates are hazy) about the remains being identified as the Royal Family and also trashing the "Anna Anderson" story as Anastasia's remains were DEFINITELY identified.  There was also a long programme on the BBC about it which went into great detail about DNA testing and how the experts identified each of the bodies.  Anastasia was seemingly the shortest of the 4 girls and the youngest of course, and certain bone fusions would not have taken place because of her youth (again, I'm relying on my memory here) and her wisdom teeth would not have erupted either - that normally happens between the ages of 18 and 25.  The skeleton showed no signs of the tooth eruptions - whereas the others (Olga and Tatiana) were evident.  The programme categorically stated the remains were Anastasia's and Marie was named as the missing Grand Duchess.  How the bodies became missing I don't know, but if they were burned before the remains were interred in the forest is it possible that the heat could have destroyed the remains completely?  If the funeral pyre was kept burning with frequent infusions of gasoline would any remains of Marie and Alexei have survived the cremation at all?  I know it would depend on the heat generated, but it's something I've often wondered about and would like to know if I am way off base with this line of thinking, or if it is feasible.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: nerdycool on July 29, 2004, 01:57:55 PM
I think I saw that same program. And I also think that it's Maria who's missing, not Anastasia. The fusion in the spine which was mentioned was the most interesting part for me. IF I remember correctly, they said it happened around the age of 18. Didn't they also say that the spaces between the vertebrae "shorten" after puberty? But I disagree about the wisdom teeth because not everyone develops them. My mom has her upper ones, but not lower... my dad didn't have any... brother had all four... I have 2 upper (if I have the lower ones, they haven't made their appearances yet). So it all depends on the person.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: KatieAnn on August 02, 2004, 09:48:25 AM
Yep, fusion of the spine was mentioned.  I thought the bit about the teeth was a long shot.  I'm now 44 and an xray (12 years ago) showed I don't have wisdom teeth at all!  However, I still think the missing GD IS Marie.  The forensic examination of the bones showed that one skeleton was considerably shorter than the other 3 women (Alexandra, Olga and Tatiana).  Marie was taller than Anastasia and 2 years older, so lack of bone fusion and wisdom teeth would probably point to Anastasia being the third GD found.

As to where the remains of the missing children are - I simply don't know.  I hope that one day they are found and placed alongside their parents, siblings and retainers - but it's a long shot.  We can but hope.

Incidentally, I saw a paper written by a Forensics expert (I think it was published in The Lancet) who said that a body will be almost totally cremated in 15 minutes at a temperature of over 1000 degrees.  All that would be left would be ash and some small bone fragments.  Given the ghoulish way the bodies were disposed of, is it possible that funeral pyre could have reached so hot a temperature and the 2 missing children were cremated beyond recognition??  I have absolutely no idea if this IS possible - so it's a genuine question - I'm just wondering if this could perhaps be one explanation for why both children's remains have never been found.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: rskkiya on August 02, 2004, 10:06:44 AM
Katieanne,

Generally speaking a bonfire would not be able to produce such intense heat...so the bodies would have been to put it crudely charbroiled or seeredand  the remains might have been scattered or abandoned for any local carnivores to deal with.

I don't have an opinion as to whether Anastasia's or Marie's bones were found... there is evidence for both conclusions.
R.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on August 02, 2004, 10:24:22 AM
Quote
Katieanne,

Generally speaking a bonfire would not be able to produce such intense heat...so the bodies would have been to put it crudely charbroiled or seered.


Do not forget that Yurovsky reports:"I drove to Voikov, head of supply in the Urals, to get petrol or kerosene, sulphuric acid too (to disfigure the faces) and, besides that, spades. I commandeered ten carts without drivers from the prison. Everything was loaded on and we drove off."
Petrol or Kerosene will create a fire of MUCH more heat and intensity than an ordinary "bonfire".  It is very possible that the fire reached sufficient temperatures.  The main problem, IMO, is that it took too much petrol to burn everyone sufficiently, which is why they abandoned the effort.

Also, they said that they built a second fire over the remains of the first and then buried that to disguise what was going on. There may not have been much left.  Another possibility about the remains is this.  Woodash when soaked with water turns into Lye.  Given the remains of the first two were buried underneath quite a large amount of wood ash, every time it rained lye would have soaked the remains and made short work of what was left....
Again, my opinion, but I think it follows plausibly.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: KatieAnn on August 02, 2004, 10:38:19 AM
Rskkyia

Thanks for your input.  I kind of half-doubted my own theory; but still wondered if this was a possible scenario.  I don't know where the children ended up, but I do hope they are still together.

Best wishes

Kathleen
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on August 02, 2004, 10:45:09 AM
Quote


Also, they said that they built a second fire over the remains of the first and then buried that to disguise what was going on. There may not have been much left.  Another possibility about the remains is this.  Woodash when soaked with water turns into Lye.  Given the remains of the first two were buried underneath quite a large amount of wood ash, every time it rained lye would have soaked the remains and made short work of what was left....
Again, my opinion, but I think it follows plausibly.


But if this was the way they did it, should not be some trace in the soil of the lye? Well i really do not know how to explain what i mean, but the soil was analized(tested?), so they would have noticed something like that, no?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on August 02, 2004, 10:52:59 AM
After seventy years of Siberian winters and thawing in summers? Im not sure how much would have remained in the soil...An expert would have to answer that.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on August 29, 2004, 07:17:37 PM
I think i know what happened in many of my books it says ' they burned the bodies' and maybe Alexei and Maria's bodies were destroyed, burn to ashes.

I know it awful for me to say, but maybe it true!
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on September 10, 2004, 09:15:11 PM
I was surprised to read in the book "Little Mother Russia" that 2 bodies supposed to be those of the missing Imperial children had been found near Ekaterinburg and were awaiting DNA testing?  ???

On page 357, it states:

The remains of Alexei and the missing Grand Duchess, who the Russians still insist is Marie, are now believed to have been discovered near Ekaterinburg and are awaiting DNA testing.

This book was published in 1999. Have the bodies since been found not to be Romanovs, are they still awaiting testing, or was it a rumor? Do any of you experts know the answers?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Abby on September 10, 2004, 09:49:54 PM
I have never heard of this?!
It must not be totally reliable, or else it would have been bigger news. Hmmm.
Interesting!
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Greg_King on September 11, 2004, 04:50:47 AM
Coryne's book went to press just as one of the many (false) claims regarding the whereabouts of the two missing bodies received media attention; there have been, as far as I know, at least 3 subsequent claims that the missing remains were located, all of which were rather quickly shown to be false.

Greg King
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on September 11, 2004, 11:48:02 AM
Thanks for clearing that up Greg. I guess a lot of  people were killed and buried in those days in that area so they might find a lot of bodies but they aren't the right ones.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: ashanti01 on September 15, 2004, 11:44:19 AM
I read "Little Mother of Russia" and I remember reading that part and thinking is it possible?
At this point I find it very unlikly the missing two bodies will ever be found. Sad to think so, but very likely.
One can only hope the entire family is together in the after life, since their remains apperantly will never be
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: JonC on September 18, 2004, 02:05:51 PM
Speaking about 'other people who were killed around that time' I believe I read in one of the books,,maybe from Massie that the bodies could have been from an Industrialist's family which resembled that of the Royal family. Could this be true? Just making discussion. I hope my two cents makes sense.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on September 18, 2004, 03:24:29 PM
I think that theory went out the window when the DNA tests on the bones proved they were the IF and their servants.

Maybe some of those false leads were the industrialist's family.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Alice on December 14, 2004, 05:48:02 AM
Quote

Do not forget that Yurovsky reports:"I drove to Voikov, head of supply in the Urals, to get petrol or kerosene, sulphuric acid too (to disfigure the faces) and, besides that, spades. I commandeered ten carts without drivers from the prison. Everything was loaded on and we drove off."
Petrol or Kerosene will create a fire of MUCH more heat and intensity than an ordinary "bonfire".  It is very possible that the fire reached sufficient temperatures.  The main problem, IMO, is that it took too much petrol to burn everyone sufficiently, which is why they abandoned the effort.

Also, they said that they built a second fire over the remains of the first and then buried that to disguise what was going on. There may not have been much left.  Another possibility about the remains is this.  Woodash when soaked with water turns into Lye.  Given the remains of the first two were buried underneath quite a large amount of wood ash, every time it rained lye would have soaked the remains and made short work of what was left....
Again, my opinion, but I think it follows plausibly.


Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree with you. I don't think it's possible that the fire reached sufficient temperatures to destroy two bodies. Kerosene and/or petrol will certainly make the fire more intense, but it wouldnt've made much of a difference, temperature-wise, because they were burning in a forest, with plenty of air, which would allow for much of the heat to escape. They would've been charred, but no way would this fire have been hot enough to destroy bones, etc.

Quote
The site was severely tampered with on all occassions, starting with the process of disposal. When some fragments were found and removed by Sokolov in 1918, then I believe the physical contamination of the site commenced at that time. Are we really certain that others did not follow the same path of discovery before Avdonin did in 1979?


We're talking two sets of human remains here, not fragments. And Sokolov didn't excavate or attempt to exacavate the grave in Pig's Meadow. He focused predominantly on the Four Brothers.

The problem I have with the "removal of two of the bodies from the mass grave after the murders" is that it would've had to've been very recently after the murders, otherwise there'd be just bones, and how do you successfully tell which bones belong to who, to successfully remove two sets of remains completely, leaving behind no teeth, nothing? It's just not plausible (or possible). Moreover, why would you remove only two sets, leaving the others?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Dandywell on December 17, 2004, 04:54:13 PM
Quote
I think i know what happened in many of my books it says ' they burned the bodies' and maybe Alexei and Maria's bodies were distoryed, burn to ashes.

I know it awful for me to say, but mabye it true!


I doubt that. First of all, there has been a number of evidence given in this discussion about what it would have taken to burn the bodies, which proves it to be very unlikely. Also, those documents might of been made to cover up the truth, and make it seem like the Bolsheviks had it under control when they noticed two missing people. Honestly, I don't know when, if ever, we will know the truth.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on December 17, 2004, 04:59:15 PM
Quote

I doubt that. First of all, there has been a number of evidence given in this discussion about what it would have taken to burn the bodies, which proves it to be very unlikely. Also, those documents might of been made to cover up the truth, and make it seem like the Bolsheviks had it under control when they noticed two missing people. Honestly, I don't know when, if ever, we will know the truth.


To tell you " I don't know what happened!!!! That all I think what happend.   >:(
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Dandywell on December 17, 2004, 05:12:32 PM
I wasn't trying to force my opinions on you, and I'm sorry if I offended you. :)
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 10, 2005, 12:30:55 AM
Ok I was writing in my diary about what I've learned about the Romanovs today and then some thing came to my head!

We all know that Alexei's and Anastasia's bodies were never found, but Yurovsky said that he buried them right underneath the big fire with with they tried to cremate Alexei and Anastasia but failed. So wouldn't it be pretty easy to find their missing bodies?

And when did Yurovsky tell the public where he buried the bodies?  ???
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mgmstl on February 10, 2005, 01:05:07 AM
Yurovsky, never told the public what he did with the bodies.  Some people had to know in Moscow, and it was evident that the grave had been opened once or twice before the remains were finally exhumed.

However in Yurovsky different letters/files/statements, his stories vary about what he did with the bodies, and which bodies.  

In Radzinsky's "The Last Tsar"  I remember reading that he thought that it was at some point when the trucks were parked at a guard shack that the bodies came up missing or was the best chance for bodies to come up  missing, meaning they had some period of time there.

The reason Yurovsky put that in the note about burning 2 of the bodies, most think is to throw any rumors, or innuendo that they LOST 2 bodies.

My last thought on this for the evening is why Alexis & Anastasia.  He was trying to hide the bodies so their location would not be a rallying point for monarchists & monarchism, so why would he burn 2 of the children, why would he not burn Nicholas & Alexandra?????

Also we know that in order to destroy the bodies by burning and rid the area of their remains the fire would have to have been temperatures that could only be reached in a crematorium, not in an outside bonfire.

All in all, finding the 2 bodies would be interesting, but at this late date unless they were buried or left in the mine or some other location we know nothing about, their resting place will probably remain a mystery.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on February 10, 2005, 09:53:06 AM
Over on a thread about Questions about the Testimonies of Yurovsky and Others we've been talking about parts of the testimonies :

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1106530719

On another thread we were talking about Yurovsky's 1920 and 1934 testimony about who he claimed to have burned and that he knew an error had been made.  They had not burned Alexandra but had burned Demidova.   And, yet, knowing a mistake had been made, he, still, didn't tell us the right person.

Quote
 
Fate of the Romanovs by King and Wilson.... p. 330,  "According to Kudrin, the bodies,  'which were frozen, smoked and hissed..."
 
If the bodies were still frozen,  still reconizeable, one would think, since Yurovsky knew  each of the eleven dead people,  he'd know who was who...
 
But Yurovsky and the others  didn't know the difference between  Alexandra, her lady-in-waiting and Anastasia/Marie who's body was missing from the grave in Pig's Meadow.
 
I have a simple question:  

Since Yurovsky could tell who was who,  why is he lying?
 
AGRBear
 


AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 10, 2005, 10:08:44 AM
I just wish we can all solve this mystery!, I really wanna know weather  they were buried separately, or if the bodies fell out of the truck and went missing, or that they've survived and hid their identity all these years! ???
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on February 10, 2005, 10:10:25 AM
Until then, enjoy this forum and continue to ask questions.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mgmstl on February 10, 2005, 02:31:39 PM
Alexei, Bear is right, continue to ask questions, and use the forum, and READ AS MUCH AS YOU CAN on this subject.  There are so many books available.  Actually "Fate Of The Romanovs" is the best reference out there for the execution and the aftermath.  Very thorough.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Denise on February 10, 2005, 02:44:14 PM
Quote
Alexei, Bear is right, continue to ask questions, and use the forum, and READ AS MUCH AS YOU CAN on this subject.  There are so many books available.  Actually "Fate Of The Romanovs" is the best reference out there for the execution and the aftermath.  Very thourough.


This is a wonderful book!!  I think you would get a lot out of it, especially as so many of us use it as a source.  It is great to see a post on here with a reference to a page that you can look up and read more about.  It is a fairly intense read, but very in depth and thought provoking.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Abby on February 10, 2005, 05:34:17 PM
I agree with Denise and Michael. It is very concise on the last few months of the Imperial Family's life, and also contains the most up-to-date information on the investigation. The muder scene chapter stayed with me for a long time...
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 10, 2005, 06:49:29 PM
ok thanx! I'll try to find that book! ;D But i'm only 13, so would it be too hard for me to read? or understand?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Denise on February 10, 2005, 06:51:05 PM
I think if you read it slowly you would be fine.  THere are some things that might be hard for you to read emotionally, like the murder scene.  It is very graphic and disturbing.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Ortino on February 10, 2005, 09:57:56 PM
Quote
My last thought on this for the evening is why Alexis & Anastasia.  He was trying to hide the bodies so their location would not be a rallying point for monarchists & monarchism, so why would he burn 2 of the children, why would he not burn Nicholas & Alexandra??


 I've always wondered this myself and I have come to what I believe is a reasonable conclusion. As the grave is particularly shallow, with eleven people, it might be difficult to fit and completely bury them all. By removing Anastasia and Alexei, the two smallest, there would be room for the other, larger bodies. As they are smaller (especially height wise), it would be easier to dispose of them by some other method. This applies particularly to Anastasia, who was obviously the smallest of the sisters. Since the bodies were most likely just thrown into the grave, they wouldn't have made the most of the space they did have. I believe that this idea is a reasonable one as to why they are not there. I cannot understand why they would bury them somewhere else otherwise, unless they felt that the public would react negatively to the youngest children (they were age wise practically children) being murdered or something......
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Denise on February 10, 2005, 11:16:13 PM
Quote

 As they are smaller (especially height wise), it would be easier to dispose of them by some other method. This applies particularly to Anastasia, who was obviously the smallest of the sisters. Since the bodies were most likely just thrown into the grave, they wouldn't have made the most of the space they did have. I believe that this idea is a reasonable one as to why they are not there.


This raises another question for me.  If they were the smallest (which it seems) might they not have been the two bodies thrown on top?  And, if the road was especially bumpy, couldn't they have been thrown off  somehow?  I have seen photos of the truck on another thread, but am not sure how high the bodies would have piled for anyone to fall out over the side.  

Then, once at the site, if he noticed the bodies were missing--WHAMMO!!  Invent the bonfire story....
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Malenkaya on February 10, 2005, 11:37:09 PM
Quote
Then, once at the site, if he noticed the bodies were missing--WHAMMO!!  Invent the bonfire story....


I can definitely see that happening.  However, when they realized they were missing two bodies, wouldn't someone been sent back to retrace their steps to find them?  How could they not, considering who they were, and knowing some of the girls were still alive when they left the basement?  

In this scenario, it seems possible that if Anastasia and Alexei's bodies fell off the truck, one (or both) of them could have been alive.  Is it possible the steps were retraced, they found Alexei alone (dead) and buried him close to where his body fell off the truck?  At that point they're missing one body, and that leads to the search of the towns that the Bolsheviks went on looking for "a missing Grand Duchess."

Could someone have been out there, came across the bodies, discovered the girl was alive and the boy was dead?  And then taken the girl away, leaving the soldiers to find only Alexei?  If this could have happened, the missing GD probably didn't survive very long, but it may explain losing two bodies and then having them buried separately, and never being found to this day.  Then again, it lends itself nicely to a survival story that explains how the two were separated from the rest of the family, and then from each other.  We all know the various Anastasia and Alexei claiments made no mention of each other when explaining how they survived.  If either of them made it through that first night, they may have never known any other member of their family left the basement alive.

Now I'm starting to reach and get off the topic, so I should quit.

Anastasia
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Denise on February 10, 2005, 11:50:22 PM
Quote

I can definitely see that happening.  However, when they realized they were missing two bodies, wouldn't someone been sent back to retrace their steps to find them?  How could they not, considering who they were, and knowing some of the girls were still alive when they left the basement?



Well, we know that it was a long trek, and the truck got stuck in the mud.  I suppose it is possible that they wouldn't look, due to the inconvenience, but you are right that because of WHO these people are they would have to make some effort to locate the bodies.  

Quote

In this scenario, it seems possible that if Anastasia and Alexei's bodies fell off the truck, one (or both) of them could have been alive.  Is it possible the steps were retraced, they found Alexei alone (dead) and buried him alone close to where his body fell off the truck?  At that point they're missing one body, and that leads to the search of the towns that the Bolsheviks went on looking for "a missing Grand Duchess."



I think you have the correct scenario here.  Alexei, to my mind, would have to be dead.  Between how ill he had been, the severity of his injuries, topped with hemophilia, there is no chance of survival.  If they bury him at the spot they find him, and cannot locate Anastasia, those search parties make more sense.  


Quote

Could someone have been out there, came across the bodies, discovered the girl was alive and the boy was dead?  And then taken the girl away, leaving the soldiers to find only Alexei?  If this could have happened, the missing GD probably didn't survive very long, but it may explain losing two bodies and then having them buried separately, and never being found to this day.  Then again, it lends itself nicely to a survival story that explains how the two were separated from the rest of the family, and then from each other.    We all know the various Anastasia and Alexei claiments made no mention of each other when explaining how they survived.  If either of them made it through that first night, they may have never known any other member of their family left the basement alive.



I also think this is another likely scenario.  If a sympathetic guard (or a peasant) found the two Imperial children, they may have taken them home to nurse.  The bodies have never beenfound because they died and were buried elsewhere in the Ekaterinburg forest.  

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on February 11, 2005, 05:04:51 PM
Quote
ok thanx! I'll try to find that book! ;D But i'm only 13, so would it be too hard for me to read? or understand?


I was your age when I read Nicholas and Alexandra by Robert K. Massie. I hope you will read it first. Please start with N & A and possibly other books then read FOTR later and make up your own mind.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mgmstl on February 11, 2005, 05:14:14 PM
Alexei, I also read Massie's N & A at the age of 13.... I think that you seem intelligent, and that what is in the "Fate Of The Romanov's", is the truth, unfortunately
history is not at pleasant in many cases, and learning the truth may help future generations to end the silly stories & legends about the IF.

It is up to you what you read, but I reccomend "Fate Of The Romanovs", "The Last Tsar" by Radzinsky, along with Greg King's excellent biography of Alexandra., as well as Corene Hall's "Little Mother Of Russia".... The Flight Of The Romanov's is good also.  

Also in my opinion there is nothing in FOTR that disparages the IF or displays them in a bad or negative form.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on February 11, 2005, 05:18:06 PM
Michael, we do not know the 'truth' and have no right to tell a 13 year old student what is true. Let everyone read and decide for themselves. Just remember books can be slanted toward the point of view of the author (in any case) I have serious questions to what the 'truth' may really be.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mgmstl on February 11, 2005, 05:33:01 PM
I think I have an idea on what the truth is Annie, and I am giving him an objective list of literature that I feel is an overview.  He was asking specific questions about Alexei and his health condition, etc, and I feel that FOTR may be able to answer his questions.

As far as influencing his views that is not my objective,
my objective is to offer him a look at history that is thorough.  I have about 20 other books on the Romanovs or more in my collection.  Massie's book at that age whetted my appatite for more, I did not find enough out there until "FOTR" came out.  

I have no issue how the IF is portrayed in the book, and I don't understand what is negative about them in the book.   I think you are looking at history with a closed mind and a preconceived idea.  FOTR gave me information that I had always wanted to know.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mgmstl on February 11, 2005, 05:36:11 PM
One more thing Annie, you are right NONE OF US, knows the truth, because we weren't there.  We have to rely on the affadavits, written material, and research, that have been done.  We will never know the absolute truth of what happened, but the accounts in FOTR give us much more of an inside an accuarate look at this tragedy.  This is not a PERSONAL attack, just a difference of opinion.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 05:36:58 PM
I think AlexeiLVR is supposed to be a "she" not a "he"  :D.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 11, 2005, 06:29:59 PM
Yup lol i'm a girl! ;D And thank you everyone for your suggestions! (i dono if i spelled that correctly) :-[
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 11, 2005, 10:31:24 PM
Ok i went to the Library today and took out "Nicholas and Alexandra" and "the Romanovs the Final Chapter" both by Robert K. Massie

And I'm reading Nicholas and Alexandra first! ;D
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mgmstl on February 12, 2005, 12:37:39 AM
I apologize Alexei, for mistaking you for a male. ;D
Enjoy N & A, but I do think it is rather sophomoric in it's approach.  Massie is also biased about what he writes.

However there are a plethora of books out there which you may be able to obtain through interlibrary loan, just don't limit yourself to Massie's view.

As soon as I can get to my storage container full of Romanov books I can send you a list of them.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 12, 2005, 01:34:25 PM
Quote
Enjoy N & A, but I do think it is rather sophomoric in it's approach.  Massie is also biased about what he writes.


I beleive all authors are biased to some extent, even if they try very hard not to be! I think the best approach if one wants to to get the most accurate "picture" would be to read as many different books on the subject as possible and get acquianted with as many different takes on the subject as possible. For example, between N&A and FOTR, you can get a pretty good idea of what probably went on. The truth may lie somewhere in the middle of the two, as it often does ;). What I liked about FOTR is the fact that we got a viewpoint that we never got before from other Romanov oriented books. But in the end, we should make our decision based on as much different information as possible, and this is why it's important to take into consideration all viewpoints that exist, even if we don't necessarily agree with them....
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on February 12, 2005, 02:02:32 PM
What bothers me about FOTR is that its main source seems to be the testimonies of Bolsheviks who disliked the family, and wanted to justify their killing, so naturally they'd portray them in the worst possible light. I really do believe that a lot of the negative things about the family were based on this, and perhaps unfairly. Just because it was a 'new and different' view doesn't make it right. The reason most other books seem to say the same things is because they were based on letters and diaries of the family, and books by those who were closest to them in their lifetimes. Sorry but I don't believe anything is going to beat that as a reference. Of course no one is perfect, and we all have flaws. Still I think it was overly negative the way some people may be overly gushing. I am for reading ALL the books, or as many as possible, before anyone makes up their mind. But for me, after reading so many books that I had felt I knew the family, I questioned the 'new' info as I would gossip on a friend that seemed out of character. And that's all I'm going to say before I get jumped on;)

Alexeilover, I hope you enjoy the books! You are also lucky to have this website, there was no such thing back in my day;)
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 12, 2005, 02:18:57 PM
Quote
What bothers me about FOTR is that its main source seems to be the testimonies of Bolsheviks who disliked the family, and wanted to justify their killing, so naturally they'd portray them in the worst possible light. I really do believe that a lot of the negative things about the family were based on this, and perhaps unfairly. Just because it was a 'new and different' view doesn't make it right. The reason most other books seem to say the same things is because they were based on letters and diaries of the family, and books by those who were closest to them in their lifetimes. Sorry but I don't believe anything is going to beat that as a reference. Of course no one is perfect, and we all have flaws. Still I think it was overly negative the way some people may be overly gushing. I am for reading ALL the books, or as many as possible, before anyone makes up their mind. But for me, after reading so many books that I had felt I knew the family, I questioned the 'new' info as I would gossip on a friend that seemed out of character.


But this is ok, because we never really got that side of the story before. This is what I meant by getting all viewpoints. I don't remember who once said this, but I agree with this: "If you want to know what someone was like, take the best of what his enemies say about him and the worst of what his friends say about him, and what you get is much closer to the truth than what you would get from either side alone." So this is why it is important to hear what the "enemies" had to say about them as well as the friends. This is the only way to get the most accurate picture...  
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on February 12, 2005, 02:48:05 PM
Well maybe I'm biased against the 'enemy' point of view.

There's no way to prove it's a lie because there will always be a question once doubt is cast. Their view runs so contrary to EVERYTHING else I have read about them, like I said to me it's like when I hear bad gossip about a friend that is so out of character it doesn't seem like them at all. I would want anyone to give me the same benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mgmstl on February 12, 2005, 03:59:50 PM
Oh come on Annie, what did you expect the Bolsheviks to do, bow, scrape, kneel & revere the IF????????????
My question is since the ONLY PEOPLE IN CAPTIVITY TO SEE THEM WAS THEIR CAPTORS ON A DAILY BASIS, then what better testimony to use,  they also used the priest, the nuns, the cleaning woman.

I think your expectations are a little too much. They were a deposed ruling family, Nicholas had become hated for what he had done, and Alexandra along with him.  I am not saying whether I believe this or not, I am saying this is what happens during a revolution and a civil war.

Look at how the Tories were treated in America during the Revolution and after.   History is FACT not myth, and the fact that the family behaved or were portrayed differently than you imagine them to be doesn't change history.  I think what bothers me the most is that I can't fathom a look at history through Massie's works without the reality of FOTR and the other books on the Romanovs.

I have a line in my family that has WRONGLY declared direct descent from John Ross chief of the Cherokee Indians.  After years of research, there is absolutley NO PROOF that exists about our family being descendants of the Ross family whose genalogy is most faithfully documented.  I have presented to people the facts, they prefer to believe the myth, and are angry that I have destroyed some kind of vision of sitting around teepees and smoking peace pipes, yet everyone in the family who signs on to do this comes to the same conclusion that I do.  I am not saying we weren't part Indian, but there is no definite proof of that either.
So what I am trying to say is that history may not always be the fantasy you dreamed of it being, and the people you research, may be drunks, dope fiends, thieves, poor, rich, mean, nice, good, bad, whatever, but you learn that you can't change history or some enduring myth that smells to high heaven.  

You have to take in all sides about someone or an event before writing or being able to make a judgement, Greg & Penny did that most admirably.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 12, 2005, 05:07:01 PM
Quote
Well maybe I'm biased against the 'enemy' point of view in any case because I've had some very nasty and totally untrue garbage spread on me by people who didn't like me and wanted people to turn against me.
Remember, you are supposed to only take the best of what the enemies say about someone, not everything  ;)
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 12, 2005, 05:13:47 PM
P.S. Personally, I didn't think there was anything so bad about the IF in FOTR. They just came off as more or less regular people to me, and not some saints that you usually see them portrayed as in other books. So this is what I liked to read for a change... But this is strictly personal preference, I suppose...
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mgmstl on February 12, 2005, 05:19:48 PM
BTW, I have read Nicholas & Alexandra, which was a good book for it's time in 1969/70.  I just wasn't interested in anything else Massie had to present as it seemed he was writing about the same subject matter, and while I appreciate his work for what it is.  It does not represent the reality of the subject matter I am interested in.  His later books seemed like a rehash of the same subject matter, which is why as a discerning adult I CHOSE not to purchase them.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 12, 2005, 05:40:43 PM
Massie had pioneered for others to write about this subject, and he should be recognized for that. I wouldn't say that his work should be all and end all though. There are many different ways of looking at the imperial family and what happened, and many different ways to cover it. Each of us can read the same book and see different things in it, because we all bring different life experience in the way we interpret things. I don't think that there is any absolute truth to something like this, as the truth to each individual is what he sees it as. So this is why we should just read all we can, and interpret it the way we see it.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on February 12, 2005, 05:52:58 PM
Quote
P.S. Personally, I didn't think there was anything so bad about the IF in FOTR. They just came off as more or less regular people to me, and not some saints that you usually see them portrayed as in other books. So this is what I liked to read for a change... But this is strictly personal preference, I suppose...

Actually it's not just preference. When someone purposely leaves out things like the Tsar changing his mind about his anti-Semitism and leaving him with that legacy, I consider that a negative and unfair portrayal. I also disagree with the way Alexandra is portrayed,which contradicts everything else we know about her. But if I want to debate the book I'll go to the book forum.

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mgmstl on February 12, 2005, 07:01:53 PM
As I stated Massie's books other than N&A were rehashes, not investigating any new territory or research.   You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to mine.  I  have never said anything different.

 All I said about Massie was that I felt his books offered me no new insight from a historical perspective, and that is no disrespect meant to him. I have not bought his or Suzanne Massie's books at all.  

As Helen said, they came off as regular people, which is what I found refreshing about FOTR.  Nicholas was not a saint, he made many mistakes as a ruler, and for that he paid the price, he abdicated his birthright. It is unfortunate his children were unjustly punished for his mistakes. I just refuse to be one of those people who constantly puts these people on a pedestal relying on revisionism of history to make them holier than thou.    
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: rskkiya on February 12, 2005, 07:27:04 PM
Quote
What bothers me about FOTR is that its main source seems to be the testimonies of Bolsheviks who disliked the family, and wanted to justify their killing, so naturally they'd portray them in the worst possible light. I really do believe that a lot of the negative things about the family were based on this, and perhaps unfairly. Just because it was a 'new and different' view doesn't make it right. The reason most other books seem to say the same things is because they were based on letters and diaries of the family, and books by those who were closest to them in their lifetimes. Sorry but I don't believe anything is going to beat that as a reference. Of course no one is perfect, and we all have flaws. Still I think it was overly negative the way some people may be overly gushing. I am for reading ALL the books, or as many as possible, before anyone makes up their mind. But for me, after reading so many books that I had felt I knew the family, I questioned the 'new' info as I would gossip on a friend that seemed out of character. And that's all I'm going to say before I get jumped on;)

Annie
   While I do hope that you will not consider my remarks to  be an attempt to "jump on" you...   :-/  I really am quite surprised by your reaction to FOTR. Have you read the book? It's hardly full of 'big bad bolsheviks' (my joke) saying 'bad things' about the Tsar...
    Actually in my opinion, it's a wee bit too romantic and sentimental in its undertone of "hardened revolutionaries all being charmed by the sweet dreamy misunderstood royals" for me to be all that academically thrilled with it. In its favour it does forensically (sp) reexamine the 'execution' in great detail and carefully identify all the revolutionary guards involved - a serious bit of work!
    Your comment implies that you will not take the words of bolsheviks as reliable or viable (if I understand your earlier remarks) If this is true then this is a sad and rather reactionary statement on your part and one which I do hope you will reconsider.

rskkiya
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on February 12, 2005, 08:39:16 PM
Yes, and don't get mad at me!  :P  What I mean is a lot of the research is based on the word of people who didn't like the IF, so naturally they would not have given them the best reviews  ;) As with anyone in any situation, that is not going to be the best and truest representation of a person.

What we really need is a new book combining all the research! :D

But I really don't even feel like fighting over it. Everyone is going to think what they want anyway, oh well! :D

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Denise on February 12, 2005, 10:08:24 PM
Just to throw my 2 cents in here.  I am in the process of reading FOTR for the first time--I'm up to chapter 8.  I find it a very unbiased book, as the authors present evidence from a variety of sources for each piece of information, then tell you why/why not dome scenarios are not plausible.  I prefer that to Massie's style in Romanovs Final Chapter.  There, he seems to have hust withheld any evidence he didn't like without presenting it to the reader.  Furthering his own research.  I prefer FOTR as a scholar, because I can weight the evidence myself and see if I agree with King/Wilson's conclusions.

I, like Helen, didn't find anything too horrific or negative about the IF in the book.  I understand Annie's point about the Anti-Semitism, but feel that the focus of this book is more on the circumstances leading to the execution, and less on who they were as individuals.

D
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 13, 2005, 05:34:23 PM
Quote
...contrary to EVERYTHING else I have read about them.."


Actually, I just remembered that in "Michael and Natasha", both N & A are presented in very unflattering light, particularly Alexandra. I don't know if you read this book, but IMO, it definitely shows that neither the Tsar nor the Tsarina were the easiest people to deal with and could be quite frustrating. So I don't think that  FOTR was the only book that showed that side of them...
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on February 13, 2005, 06:20:46 PM
I'm not talking about that she didn't like Natasha, or that she screwed up and helped cause the revolution. I mean more personal things, like the swipes at her being a bad mother, etc. But this is off topic and we should take it to the books forum. I really don't feel like it anyway. We're all going to have our opinions, some of us feel more strongly than others.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Denise on February 13, 2005, 07:18:27 PM
Quote
But this is off topic and we should take it to the books forum. I really don't feel like it anyway. We're all going to have our opinions, some of us feel more strongly than others.


Well done, Annie!!  ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Ortino on February 13, 2005, 09:06:29 PM
Quote
Actually it's not just preference. When someone purposely leaves out things like the Tsar changing his mind about his anti-Semitism and leaving him with that legacy, I consider that a negative and unfair portrayal.


  Annie, the tsar WAS an anti-semite. He was worse than his father in that area; almost all of the pogroms took place during HIS reign, and discrimination was rampant. The Tsar only started to change his mind after he had abdicated and was imprisoned. I don't think that truly counts for change, since hundreds of people died as the result of his views of Jews. As much as I love the IF, I think he's worthy of the "negative and 'unfair' portrayal" in that area.

I thought FOTR was a very good book, although I too got the vibe that it was trying to portray the IF in a somewhat negative light at times. Overall though, very informative.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on February 13, 2005, 09:34:32 PM
The Tsar changed his mind and his position at least by 1916, yet the book chose to ignore that fact to leave his image in the worst possible light.That makes me angry.

Brief expert from Nicholas' New Study:

Why did Nicholas II change his mind on civil rights for the Jews between 1905 and 1916? There is strong evidence that his attitude changed over time. First, he was never the rabid anti-Semite that many in Russia were at the time. He was certainly less so than most members of his family and he was castigated for this by them. There were two factors that changed Nicholas's mind toward the end of his reign. One of them was WWI. During the war Nicholas saw hundreds of thousands of his country men die - many more were wounded. They came from all class and religions. Jews were persecuted in the Army but WWI and the lack of men lead to a loosening of these restrictions. Among the troops was a Jewish soldier who had returned from America to fight for his country, who was severely wounded and made an invalid. After his recovery this man wanted to move to Moscow where he could hope to make a living, but this was not allowed because he was a Jew. This man's petition reached Nicholas and Alexandra who discussed the man's plight and the ridiculousness of the laws regarding the Jews and the Pale of Settlement. This incident created a change of heart in Nicholas in 1915. Personal experience with real-life stories like this one often lead to change.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on February 13, 2005, 09:35:32 PM
Quote

Well done, Annie!!  ;) ;) ;)


Thanks Denise.

Now back to the topic, as bear would say!
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Denise on February 13, 2005, 10:11:51 PM
Ok, back to topic.  This was not addressed earlier, and I still would like to get some additional input.

Quote

This raises another question for me.  If they were the smallest (which it seems) might they not have been the two bodies thrown on top?  And, if the road was especially bumpy, couldn't they have been thrown off  somehow?  I have seen photos of the truck on another thread, but am not sure how high the bodies would have piled for anyone to fall out over the side.  

Then, once at the site, if he noticed the bodies were missing--WHAMMO!!  Invent the bonfire story....


I am curious as to whether the bonfire story may have been invented as a way to cover the loss of two bodies coming off the truck.  Would it be possible for the bodies to have come off over the bed rails, or were they too high?  Also, I know someone rode on the back with the bodies.  Is it possible that the guard would have missed seeing 2 bodies fall off?  But how fast were they going?  If the rodes were as bumpy and muddy as reported, then it seems unlikely that the bodies could be missed falling off....


Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 13, 2005, 11:28:52 PM
They didn't ride too fast! The bumpy road and the wheels the truck had made it hard to go fast!

I think that none of the bodies went missing! I think that the bonfire story was true! How else would they explain finding things that belonged to Alexei in a bonfire location near the burial site? (i know i spelled that wrong, sorry!)

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mgmstl on February 13, 2005, 11:40:34 PM
Perhaps in their haste to collect the bodies and the jewels thing were overlooked.  Remember they were doing this at night in the woods where even the light of a bonfire may not give them enough light.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on February 14, 2005, 09:35:07 AM
Quote
They didn't ride too fast! The bumpy rode and the wheels the truck had made it hard to go fast!

I think that none of the bodie went missing! I think that the bon fire storie was true! How els would they explain finding things that belonged to Alexei in a bon fire location near the burriel site? (i know i spelled that wrong, sorry!)




I think so too, especially since the body has never been found. Sadly, if they were burned to ashes we will NEVER find them and the stories of 'escapes' will go on forever.

Even if a body did fall off the truck, I don't see much chance of it being alive :-/
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mgmstl on February 14, 2005, 10:20:28 AM
The only way the bodies could be burned to ashes is if the temperature reached that of a crematorium. It is difficult if impossible to do that with an outside bonfire.   It is difficult at that temperature to reduce bone to ash.  Not to mention the SMELL...

The bodies weren't burned, which is why they went to such efforts to destroy the ones in the mass grave with acid.

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Dashkova on February 14, 2005, 10:36:31 AM
Quote
The only way the bodies could be burned to ashes is if the temperature reached that of a crematorium. It is difficult if impossible to do that with an outside bonfire.   It is difficult at that temperature to reduce bone to ash.  Not to mention the SMELL...

The bodies weren't burned, which is why they went to such efforts to destroy the ones in the mass grave with acid.




Even crematoriums do not burn bone to ash, rather to bone chips. Teeth remain teeth and many skulls never reach the chip stage.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 10:38:14 AM
Yes, this is correct. They couldn't have possibly burned the bodies completely to ashes. Something had to be left behind, like teeth and bones. Maybe they just can't find any of it, or maybe it isn't there.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Candice on February 14, 2005, 10:48:30 AM
I think there's too much maybes.  Without bodies there is no proof of actual killing.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on February 14, 2005, 11:20:17 AM
So that means if nothing is ever found they got away? That's too broad. A lot of things could have happened to the charred remains (and 2 bodies were said to have been burned, not all MG) and just because we may never find any fragments after nearly 100 years in the soil and weather doesn't mean it didn't happen. A lot of murder victims' bodies are never found, but it doesn't make them alive.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mgmstl on February 14, 2005, 11:27:19 AM
No one stated that it did make them alive did they?????
Nor did I state anywhere that they were all burned did I Annie?

It states specifically TWO, bodies.  However the ones that Yurovsky states are burned are not the two whose skeletons are missing.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 11:45:38 AM
There was actually another eye witness, one of the Ipatiev house guards who was involved in the burial of the bodies, whose testimony said that the two bodies they burned were those of Alexei and Anastasia. I got this info from a PBS documentary "The Mystery of the Last Tsar" that I watched last night...
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mgmstl on February 14, 2005, 01:02:18 PM
I did not see or read that affadavit.  Is there any existance of it besides the script of the show, & I am just aksing not inferring anything.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 01:44:18 PM
Quote
I did not see or read that affadavit.  Is there any existance of it besides the script of the show, & I am just aksing not inferring anything.


Michael, I have no idea. This may have been the first time I heard this too, but then again I never really followed this part so closely. I don't know if the documentary's info is correct, but they do give the guy's name who said this, I just can't remember right now what it was. The documentary was called 'The Mystery of the Last Tsar' and it was made by PBS. Unfortunately I don't have the tape now because it is being made into DVDs for some of the members here. If you would like, I can make you a copy too on DVD and mail it to you. Let me know. The DVD will also include the Nova episode about AA...

Helen
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Denise on February 14, 2005, 02:26:12 PM
I read this somewhere too, that a soldier had claimed that Anastasia and Alexei were burned...

Of course, I have also read that some there claimed 4-5 bodies were burned.  As no one found in the mass grave had evidence of fire, that can be ruled out completely....
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Elisabeth on February 14, 2005, 02:38:27 PM
Sukhorukov was the witness who claimed in his 1928 reminiscences (in honor of the 10th Anniversary of the murders) that Alexei and Anastasia were the victims who were burned and then buried separately from the others. He was not one of the killers at the Ipatiev House, but apparently was one of those men called in to help dispose of the bodies on July 19, 1918. His testimony is available in Veniamin Alekseev's The Destruction of the Imperial Family, or as I believe it's been translated into English, The Last Act of the Tragedy.  
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Denise on February 14, 2005, 02:39:19 PM
Quote
Sukhorukov was the witness who claimed in his 1928 reminiscences (in honor of the 10th Anniversary of the murders) that Alexei and Anastasia were the victims who were burned and then buried separately from the others. He was not one of the killers at the Ipatiev House, but apparently was one of those men called in to help dispose of the bodies on July 19, 1918. His testimony is available in Veniamin Alekseev's "The Destruction of the Imperial Family," or as I believe it's been translated into English, "The Last Act of the Tragedy."  


Thanks Elisabeth!!
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 09:05:30 PM
Quote
Sukhorukov was the witness who claimed in his 1928 reminiscences (in honor of the 10th Anniversary of the murders) that Alexei and Anastasia were the victims who were burned and then buried separately from the others. He was not one of the killers at the Ipatiev House, but apparently was one of those men called in to help dispose of the bodies on July 19, 1918.


Thank you Elizabeth! Yes, I think that name rings the bell, so it must have been him they were talking about in the documentary...
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: rskkiya on February 15, 2005, 08:03:21 PM
Quote
I think there's too much maybes.  Without bodies there is no proof of actual killing.


   Candice- this is, from a legal perspective, an incorrect assumption. I feel certain that this topic had been discussed in another thread in some detail some time ago...

   Annie -- So you don't trust bolshevic evidence -  Fair enough... Is there any historical source that you will trust? If so - why would you consider that source to be more viable?

rskkiya
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: BaronessSophie on February 15, 2005, 08:17:36 PM
Anyway, back to the topic. You are right Annie when you say that many murder victims bodies are never found. I just don't understand why some people still question the Romanov murders. It happened.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: rskkiya on February 15, 2005, 08:28:56 PM
BaronessSophie

I have to agree with your thoughtful remark. I too, do not quite understand why some people question the execution, although I can understand why some people are curious about the missing bodies...
Nevertheless I tend to doubt most 'Conspiracy theories/Imperial secret survival stories' as a rule.

rskkiya

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on February 15, 2005, 08:29:36 PM
Yes, exactly. Sad but true.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: BaronessSophie on February 15, 2005, 09:00:01 PM
Quote
this is, from a legal perspective, an incorrect assumption.


Yes, many people are declared legally dead even if their bodies are never found.  :-/
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Abby on February 15, 2005, 10:15:01 PM
Quote
Anyway, back to the topic. You are right Annie when you say that many murder victims bodies are never found. I just don't understand why some people still question the Romanov murders. It happened.



I agree BaronessSophie. I am reading "Dead Men Do Tell Tales" by William Maples, the forensic anthropologist who studied the Romanov bones, and it is very clear that this man knows what he is talking about when he says how close the injuries on the remains reflect the executioner's accounts of the murders. It all becomes clear that they were murdered and those were the bones of the family found in the Koptyaki woods.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 15, 2005, 10:31:12 PM
Quote
I am reading "Dead Men Do Tell Tales" by William Maples, the forensic anthropologist who studied the Romanov bones, and it is very clear that this man knows what he is talking about when he says how close the injuries on the remains reflect the executioner's accounts of the murders. It all becomes clear that they were murdered and those were the bones of the family found in the Koptyaki woods.


Abby, Dr Maples also talks about this a lot in both the Nova and Mystery of the Last Tsar documentaries, he even demostrates the injuries on the skulls. Maples says that based on the condition of all of the remains, it would have been impossible for anyone to have survived this massacre...
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mgmstl on February 15, 2005, 11:37:43 PM
Just reading Yurovsky's notes is enough to make one relive the execution.  
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Abby on February 16, 2005, 08:51:49 AM
I beleive that, Helen! I can't wait to watch the documentaries! :D
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: CringingSphinx on May 04, 2005, 01:35:07 AM
Just what  did they do with the body of the fourth Grand Duchesses? Was there reason to separate her from the other three? I can understand why one might move Alexei, but I  have no clue why the others weren't together. Enlighten me.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: RussiaSunbeam1918 on May 04, 2005, 07:54:57 AM
Didn't they burn her?  :-/ I think that's what Robert K. Massie says in "The final chapter."  ???
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on May 04, 2005, 08:58:26 AM
There are reports that Alexei and one of his sisters was burned. Until we find proof (which may be never after all these years) people will continue to speculate about what happened.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: CringingSphinx on May 04, 2005, 11:34:46 AM
Ah ha, I see I thought they had smashed all of the skulls in so that nobody could tell who they were and started to burn them all, I dont know it's very fuzzy and I'm a dolt.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on May 04, 2005, 03:28:31 PM
Some of your questions have been answered on other threads such as:

1. Did Any of the Romanovs Survive;
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1074956237;start=0#0

2.  Did Tatina Survive:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1103226282;start=0#0

3.  The Missing Bodies:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1102980672;start=0#0

4.  Pigs Measow Grave Questions [this is where the two missing bodies were said to have been buried near the mass grave of the other nine]:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1106871065;start=0#0

5. Escape:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1102887005

And, I'm sure there are others.

No one knows where the missing children of Nicholas II were buried.

We have testimony from Yurovsky that Alexei and a female, whom he misidentified, were burned [bodies would not have actually burned but became charred]  and buried near the mass grave.

Many people have tried to find the two missing bodies in Pig's Meadow and elsewhere but with no success up to this date.

Although the skulls of the nine bodies found were smashed with rifle butts, the scientists of today could piece them into skulls which have been identified as Nicholas II, Alexandra, three daughters [Maria or Anastasia is missing] Demidova, Botkin, Kharitonov and Trupp.  Alexei's skeleton nor skull was found in the mass grave.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: CringingSphinx on May 04, 2005, 05:13:48 PM
Much thanks AGR.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: etonexile on May 04, 2005, 06:16:32 PM
How often have I cursed the killers of the IF for their shabby,unprofessional habits as to the destruction and subsequent obliteration of one beautiful family....tsk....people....!!!
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: RussiaSunbeam1918 on May 06, 2005, 07:24:00 PM
I definately agree, etonexile. *shakes head sadly.* "people...tsk..." is right.

Forgive me if this is not correct, but didn't one man, whose name I cannot remember, find the grave, and put some remainders in a suitcase? (This is from one of Massie's books, so I assume it is pretty historicly accurate.) Perhaps there would be a clue in there, if it was found and opened.

-Dana

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on June 17, 2005, 01:16:02 PM
Those really interested might want to read William Maples' "Dead Men Do Tell Tales."

Schweitzer
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Arleen on June 17, 2005, 02:51:38 PM
Yes, I agree, it does have a wonderful chapter on the Romanov murders and Dr Maples own examination of the bones.  He died a few years ago, its a great loss.
..Arleen
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on June 17, 2005, 03:22:40 PM
I ordered this book today! Thanks.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: etonexile on June 17, 2005, 03:48:51 PM
So many books...so much expense...too bad we all can't have a central library that we all support....maybe one day....
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: RomanovFan on December 16, 2005, 12:09:28 PM
Has there been anything found in Ekaterinburg recently that has something to do with the Romanovs? No other bones found in another mine shaft close by perhaps...??
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 16, 2005, 11:41:36 PM
In a word, no.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: jeremygaleaz on December 18, 2005, 09:43:59 PM
Despite what other people have said on other threads, the search still continues.
I hope  that they concentrate on spots further away from the burial spot of the other 9...but who knows....  
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Eternal_Princess on December 21, 2005, 01:41:24 PM
Quote
Despite what other people have said on other threads, the search still continues.
I hope  that they concentrate on spots further away from the burial spot of the other 9...but who knows....  



I agree with this, I know we all would love to think Alexei and Anastasia/Maria survived, but I think they might find them burried somewhere near a nearby church or at least a great distance from where the others were found.

I haven't heard of any psychics trying to actually help find where they're burried, only trying to contact their spirits.

I'm all for trying to help them pass on, but I think it's more importaint that they're all laid to rest together first.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Cecilia on December 22, 2005, 05:51:08 PM
   I don't know if this has already been discussed, and, if it has forgive me, as this is my first time to this forum.  :)

  Anyways, a while ago I was reading a book called "The Quest for Anastasia" and in it, the author says that on one of the return trips to Ekaterinburg, scavengers found 2 teeth; both of which do not match any of the already present skulls. As MOST of the accounts that I've heard state "Two of the bodies were burned."  
   
    Teeth are destroyed at very high temperatures, at which are not usually reached, the teeth of the missing bodies, now charred rubble, must be around somewhere.  Scientists speculate that one of the 2 teeth is either a female secondary molar, or a male primary molar. [Whatever that means, but I'm sure if you want to read more into this, you can find out in a jiffy :)]  

    People do want DNA testing done on the teeth, but, for some reason it's very hard to get to the root of it...

Now, I have absolutely no experience in teeth, hehe, but maybe these teeth can be the missing link to finding out what really happened that night, and coming closer to discovering the remains of the missing Romanovs.

Maybe you should check out this book, "The Quest for Anastasia," I don't have it with me, and am not sure of the author, as it was a library find, but, from what I've read it seems like a very reliable source of information and the writer is in no way, it seems, trying to pull something over your eyes.

Once again, I am sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I must put my two cents in!~

~Cecilia
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Eternal_Princess on December 22, 2005, 10:40:00 PM

Your two cents worth is good information, I've read this book.

The idea of Anastasia and Alexei being burnt always makes me feel a little concerned, being thrown onto a pile of wood. (sorry, this wasn't the middle ages so this idea that it was used makes me feel a little ill) means that teeth and bones MUST have survived.

For example, when Caesar was burned in front of Rome, it is on record that once he was finished burning they gathered up the bones and placed them in the Julian tomb.

Even back in the 1900's there were not the practices of cremation that there are today. Today after they burn the body, they use special machines to grind up the teeth and bones.

Where would they have had the time and the primitive machines back then to do such a thing as, quote: "scatter their ashes into the wind?"  ???

I have the gradually sneaking suspicion that Yurovsky was

a. Not there when they were buried.
and

b.Never received any information about the location where they were eventually buried at all!

Controversial stuff, but my theory is that he might have known WHERE they were buried, but only know that it was in the general area, and not how they were divided up.  It sounds increasingly obvious something happened by the way he wrote those notes, they're written very strangely.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Romanov4Ever on June 25, 2007, 08:25:36 AM
 You have probaly all heard the debate of which of the Romanov children actually may have survived. It was comfirmed in 1991, that the Tsarevitch Alexis was missing, but which one of his sisters were missing fom the gravesite? I believe that the missing Grand Duchess was Anastasia, this is because of the evidence discovered when the Romanov bones were examined. None of the female skeletons showed bone evidence of immaturity, this is something they would have expected to find in a girl who died at age 17. Also in a 1917 letter, Alexandra wrote how Anastasia was inclined to be short at the time she would have died, all the skeletons found were fully grown. American scientists say it is extremleu unlikley that Anastasia would have grown so fast at the end of her life. What do all of you think? Do you also believe it was Anastasia? or was it someone else?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on June 25, 2007, 10:37:24 AM
If you get a chance to do so, read William R. Maples, Ph.D.'s book called DEAD MEN DO TELL TALES.

In chapter 15 which starts on p. 238,  he goes into details about what he believed occured from what he had read and observed as he viewed the bones of the nine victims. He was a forensic anthropologist.  On page 256 he describes the body which he numbers #5 which he believed was GD Marie.

AGRBear 
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Amanda_Misha on June 25, 2007, 07:12:44 PM
I do not believe  in that Anastasia or Maria they have survived :'( :'( in my opinion that a body has not been found it does not mean that the person lives through this one or has survived :'( :'(

Regards to all :)
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on June 26, 2007, 04:08:53 AM
If you get a chance to do so, read William R. Maples, Ph.D.'s book called DEAD MEN DO TELL TALES.

In chapter 15 which starts on p. 238,  he goes into details about what he believed occured from what he had read and observed as he viewed the bones of the nine victims. He was a forensic anthropologist.  On page 256 he describes the body which he numbers #5 which he believed was GD Marie.

AGRBear 

Bear,  I thought he said it was Anastasia?  I always understood that the Russians said it was Marie but the Americans (including Maples) gave four reasons why it was Anastasia who was missing and I still had that impression when I read FOTR.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on June 27, 2007, 01:50:52 PM
 I don't think none of the children survived or anyone lived from the bloody night, I studied this issue for five years now and with common sense, here my answer.  ;D

 Can you survive gun and stab wounds in the chest, head (exp!) and limbs without medical help? Along with being burnt (if alive) and chemical acid all over you?  Oh, and not forget the smashing, kicking (and spitting, but that not murdering, it just gross) in the heads and faces with guns and possible anything to kill with.  :-\

No, if anyone can survive that, you’re not human.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on June 27, 2007, 04:44:24 PM
I agree how can the imperial family really any human survive with their body going through that kind of damage. I do not think that neither Anastasia or Maria survived. Yes I also agree with Amanda just because a person's body is missing does not mean they always possibly and most assumed they survived something that is not the case. But just to say I do not think they survived. I think the survivor rumors are false in general. I think their dead now. The missing girl I think is Anastasia but her remains maybe in dust by now.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on June 30, 2007, 01:45:56 PM
None of them survived. It's quite simple to work out. Only the lunatic fringe who believe in AA in spite of all the evidence against it believe. You can't convince them otherwise as they don't want to accept reality. 
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Joyann1 on July 13, 2007, 11:22:28 AM
No one survived people just wanted to believe it because it gives an much more romantic story, and many people just wanted to earn some money out of it.

they havent found the missing bodies and i dont think they ever will. i dont know if the body's are like dust now or something but it is possible.

the woods where the IF was found is realy big so there is an chance that they will find the body's someday but i doubt it.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 16, 2007, 12:04:23 PM
It takes 20 years for a body to decay (to only bones or nothing left).  Since no one can find the bodies over the years, 17 years  (or more; I think they were found the 1st time in the 70s, but keep a secret) . the bodies of Alexei and the missing Grand Duchess are one with the earth.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on July 16, 2007, 12:56:13 PM
I believe the bodies were burned just as the Bolsheviks stated. Whatever remains were left after the burning were said to have been buried in a bog, is that correct? If they were in or near a bog, they would have completely turned to slime and disentigrated long before now. I have heard awful stories of dead bodies found in bogs and they were very decomposed after only a few weeks. Surely any ash or bone fragments would be dissolved by now. But I do wish SEARCH all the luck in the world and hope they do find something to put the 'survivor' rumors to rest (but even if they do find and ID some bones, AA fans will just say they were switched, not really the right ones, etc.  ::) so it will never end for those who don't want it to. :P
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 17, 2007, 06:42:44 AM
I believe the bodies were burned just as the Bolsheviks stated. Whatever remains were left after the burning were said to have been buried in a bog, is that correct? If they were in or near a bog, they would have completely turned to slime and disentigrated long before now. I have heard awful stories of dead bodies found in bogs and they were very decomposed after only a few weeks. Surely any ash or bone fragments would be dissolved by now. But I do wish SEARCH all the luck in the world and hope they do find something to put the 'survivor' rumors to rest (but even if they do find and ID some bones, AA fans will just say they were switched, not really the right ones, etc.  ::) so it will never end for those who don't want it to. :P

 There are bodies in the UK & Europe which were buried in peat bogs 2000 years ago and are still totally recognisable as people.  You can see at least one of them in the British Museum. 
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on July 17, 2007, 10:14:17 AM
In peat some have been preserved, but generally a swamp rots things quickly. Michael Jordan's father was found in a swamp, and was extremely deteriorated after only a few weeks. Because of this the examiners cremated the body, though this upset the family, but they were told it was in far too bad of shape for any kind of burial. Also I had a doctor once who told me the worst thing he ever had to do in medical school was an autopsy on a decayed body found in a lake, covered with algea and green slime which made it almost dissolve in a matter of months. Bones, too, can dissolve in the ground, when Jesse James was exhumed for a DNA test (due to a claimant story) there was nothing left of his body or wooden coffin other than a few bone fragments. I really do hope SEARCH can find SOMETHING.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 17, 2007, 10:48:45 AM
Who is Michael Jordan's father and what does he have to do with the Romanovs?

Regarding the rest - there is a difference between a swamp which I always think of as very watery - a bit like the Everglades - and a bog isn't there?  There is a plenty of boggy soil in the UK but it isn't what I imagine a swamp to be (we don't really have those!).  And a lake ia something entirely different, and yes bodies that spend a lot of time in water are revolting. 

Does anyone know - do the reports of the exhumations - tell us what kind of ground there is in Pigs Meadow?  The other bodies were allegedly buried close those which have been found so they would be in the same kind of condition surely?  How much of the area has SEARCH dug up? 
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on August 23, 2007, 06:31:14 PM
Remains Of Czar Heir May Have Been Found

Archaeologist Says Bones Of Last Russian Czar's Son May Have Been Found In Remnants Of Bonfire

(AP) The remains of the last czar's hemophiliac son and heir to the Russian throne, missing since the royal family was gunned down nine decades ago by Bolsheviks in a basement room, may have been found, an archaeologist said Thursday.

Bones were found in a burned area in the ground near Yekaterinburg, the city where Czar Nicholas II and his wife and children were held prisoner and then shot in 1918.

A top local archaeologist said the bones belong to a boy and a young woman roughly the ages of the czar's son, Alexei, and a daughter whose remains have also never been found.

If confirmed, the finding would solve a persistent mystery about the doomed family, which fell victim to the violent revolution that ushered in more than 70 years of Communist rule.

It comes almost a decade after remains identified as those of Nicholas, his wife and three of his daughters were reburied in a ceremony made possible by the Soviet collapse but shadowed by statements of doubt _ including from within the Russian Orthodox Church _ about their authenticity.

The spot where the remains were found this summer appears to correspond to a site described by Yakov Yurovsky, the leader of the family's killers, said Sergei Pogorelov, deputy head of the archaeological research department at a regional center for the preservation of historical and cultural monuments in Yekaterinburg.

"An anthropologist has determined that the bones belong to two young individuals _ a young male apparently aged roughly 10-13 and another, a young woman about 18-23," he told NTV television.

Nicholas abdicated in 1917 as revolutionary fervor swept Russia, and he and his family were detained. The next year, they were sent to the Ural Mountains city of Yekaterinburg, where a firing squad executed them on July 17, 1918.

Historians say Communist guards lined up and shot Nicholas, his wife, Alexandra, their five children and four attendants in a small basement room in a nobleman's house in Yekaterinburg. The bodies were loaded in a truck and disposed of first in a mine shaft, according to most accounts.

According to NTV, a 1934 report based on Yurovsky's words indicated that the bodies of nine victims were then doused with sulfuric acid and buried along a road, while those of Alexei and a sister were burned and left in a pit nearby.

The Bolsheviks who killed the czar apparently mutilated and hid the bodies because they did not want the remains of the family _ especially those of the heir Alexei _ to become objects of worship or spark opposition to their new regime.

With the bodies lost for decades, hundreds of people came forward claiming to be a surviving member of the royal family. The most prominent was Anna Anderson, a woman who appeared in a mental hospital in 1920 and claimed to be the czar's youngest daughter, Anastasia. She said she had been rescued by one of the soldiers who killed the rest of the family and was carried out of Russia on the back of a peasant cart, eventually winding up in Berlin.

In the 1990s, DNA tests revealed she was a Polish peasant named Franziska Schanzkowska.

Parts of the royal bodies were exhumed in 1991 and reburied in 1998 in the imperial-era capital of St. Petersburg, following years of investigation and DNA tests in Britain and the U.S. But the bodies of Alexei and one of the czar's daughters, either Maria or Anastasia, remained missing.

The two daughters were only a year apart, and DNA testing cannot distinguish between siblings. Most Russian scientists believe the missing daughter was Maria, and scientific tests have indicated the bones of Anastasia were among the remains buried.

The Russian Orthodox Church canonized Nicholas, Alexandra, Alexei and his four sisters as martyrs in 2000. But the church cited the two missing corpses and questions over whether the recovered bones were actually those of the royal family in its decision to scale down its prticipation in the 1998 burial ceremony.

Historian Edvard Radzinsky, the author of a book about Nicholas II, told NTV that if the remains are confirmed to those of Alexei and his sister, it would prove the authenticity of the earlier find by providing "documentary affirmation of what is written in Yurovsky's notes."

Along with the remains of the two bodies, NTV said archaeologists found shards of a ceramic container of sulfuric acid, nails, metal strips from a wooden box, and bullets of various caliber.

It said they found the remains in a weekslong search using metal detectors and metal rods as probes, not by digging.

Pogorelov said the /remains and other items must undergo further tests, and a representative of the Romanovs the royal family whose rule was ended by the Revolution urged caution.

"It is necessary to treat these findings very cautiously," Ivan Artseshchevsky told NTV from London, citing the controversy over the bones identified as those of the czar and others killed.

He said tiny statistical margins of error in the identifications had sparked "huge doubts and many disputes."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/08/23/ap/europe/main3199001.shtml

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on August 23, 2007, 07:22:08 PM
You know it's big when it hits the front page of Yahoo!

and even Pravda is reporting it

http://english.pravda.ru/news/russia/24-08-2007/96318-russian_heir-0
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Amanda_Misha on August 23, 2007, 07:47:12 PM
Also in Mexico the newspaper "El Universal" it notified, I cannot believe it
I leave the link but it is in spanish:
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/444654.html
Greetings to all
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on August 23, 2007, 08:39:24 PM
Bring on the DNA tests. This is very exciting.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on August 23, 2007, 10:31:18 PM
This article mentions AA.

With the bodies lost for decades, hundreds of people came forward claiming to be a surviving member of the royal family. The most prominent was Anna Anderson, a woman who appeared in a mental hospital in 1920 and claimed to be the czar's youngest daughter, Anastasia. She said she had been rescued by one of the soldiers who killed the rest of the family and was carried out of Russia on the back of a peasant cart, eventually winding up in Berlin.

In the 1990s, DNA tests revealed she was a Polish peasant named Franziska Schanzkowska.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 24, 2007, 12:25:51 AM
I believe it is now okay for me to reveal that I was told that such an announcement would be made before the end of August 2007.

Information which was critical to this discovery was delivered to Alexander Avdonin in past months. Avodonin, of all who searched for the remains, was in our opinion, the one most dedicated to this discovery, and much credit is due to him.

It is still, in the words of a historian friend of mine, "early days yet". There is much testing to be done. We don't know if they have discovered bones or discovered partially intact corpses. We don't know, if they are Romanov remains, which sister it is, although if the age identification is correct, it seems most likely that it is Marie. Rather than a final chapter, it's a new chapter, with new information, which will likely call into question some of our old information.

It was over 40 years ago when a book fell off a library shelf and changed my life. I stayed up all night reading "The Last Grand Duchess" by Ian Vorres. I read about the last Tsar's sister, Olga, and how she had lost nearly all her family. Most achingly, I worried about this family who didn't even get a burial consistent with their beliefs. I made a vow then, albiet a child's vow, to make sure this family received a proper burial.

Letters were written, prayers said, doors slammed, while other doors opened. I learned a great deal about this country, Russia, that we were supposed to hate. The more Russians I met, the more I liked them, and the more I hoped that the great suffering heaped upon them would be healed. I was repeatedly told as an American, as a woman, and a non Orthdox Christian, that this matter of their burial was none of my concern.

Much to my delight, it was a matter of concern for many people other than me. Enough people other than me shared this magnificent obsession that the impossible may have become possible. I fully realize that feelings are not facts, but my feeling, my gut instinct, is that they have found who I have come to call "the missing ones. I hope they have. I pray they have.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Foxglove on August 24, 2007, 12:31:05 AM
I want those human remains to belong to Alexei and Marie/Anastasia, not only to solve this mystery, but also because it just adds to the sadness to think that it could possibly be two other children, similar in age, were also killed and buried, to be forgotten.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on August 24, 2007, 01:01:36 AM
Well the DNA will reveal the identity sooner rather than later I would think. It will be not difficult to obtain the necessary extracts from the newly discovered remains and compare them to the existing DNA profile of Prince Philip. Duke of Edinburgh. No doubt the Prince is interested in the outcome as these were his mother's first cousins.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on August 24, 2007, 01:29:09 AM
I believe it is now okay for me to reveal that I was told that such an announcement would be made before the end of August 2007.

Information which was critical to this discovery was delivered to Alexander Avdonin in past months. Avodonin, of all who searched for the remains, was in our opinion, the one most dedicated to this discovery, and much credit is due to him.


Interesting info about the searcher, and the secret about waiting for the announcement.This only makes the news seem even more likely. I thought there must have been something to the Ekaterinburg news one of the members was reporting, now we  know it was big and they were waiting to announce it. Now that they have they must be rather certain they have the right stuff.

Were these people involved in SEARCH?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Yoyo on August 24, 2007, 07:46:58 AM
Lisa,
Considering that the Russians have officially declared the other remains to be Anastasia's, would they be kind of forced to automatically declare these ones to be Maria's? Is there any chance they might change their previous conclusion, based on the new forensic evidence (if these are indeed Alexei's and his sister's)? Would they permit other (foreign) experts to have a look too?

I do not ask these questions to question the expertise or objectivity of the Russians, but we do have to admit that the identification of the other remains, i.e. Maria/Anastasia, was quiet contentious.

Yoyo
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on August 24, 2007, 09:12:51 AM
I wonder whether some will ever accept the truth about the remains. I am not quite sure why some people kept on about the remains not being those of Anastasia apart from the agenda to push the Anna Anderson story. I wonder whether those who have denied Anastasia being buried with the rest of the family will admit they have been perhaps wrong and that the new remains are in fact Alexis and Marie.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Lemur on August 24, 2007, 09:37:17 AM
I wonder whether some will ever accept the truth about the remains. I am not quite sure why some people kept on about the remains not being those of Anastasia apart from the agenda to push the Anna Anderson story. I wonder whether those who have denied Anastasia being buried with the rest of the family will admit they have been perhaps wrong and that the new remains are in fact Alexis and Marie.

I am afraid if this body is determined to be older and taller like Marie, and some already think the one in the crypt as Anastasia is too tall, there might be new theories that another taller teenage girl was somehow killed instead and Anastasia still got away. Let us hope the DNA is not too charred by the fire to yield enough for testing and hurry with the testing.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on August 24, 2007, 10:47:09 AM
It is completely impossible to imagine anybody got away from the massacre in the Ipatiev House. None of it rings true and the documentation backs it all up. Isn't it just so obvious with all the reports on the new remains discovered referring to the Polish peasant Franziska Schankowska? Nobody really believes in Anna Anderson/Franziska Schankowska at all anymore. The DNA shattered the last remaining nonsense written about Anderson. She has been consigned to the dustbin of history where she has always belonged having no connection whatsoever with Russian or Romanov history.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: DeAnochka on August 24, 2007, 11:33:11 AM
Thank goodness college has taught me to be a more critical thinker..
I have a few questions:

Why did it take so long to find this "burned area?"
If the area was burned at the time of the Romanov murders, would it appear the same today?
Where exactly were the bones/bodies found in relation to where the other Romanovs were buried?
What was the condition of the bodies?
Were the searchers looking for the missing remains of Alexei and Maria or was this an accidental finding?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on August 24, 2007, 11:42:04 AM
Thank goodness college has taught me to be a more critical thinker..
I have a few questions:

Why did it take so long to find this "burned area?"
If the area was burned at the time of the Romanov murders, would it appear the same today?
Where exactly were the bones/bodies found in relation to where the other Romanovs were buried?
What was the condition of the bodies?
Were the searchers looking for the missing remains of Alexei and Maria or was this an accidental finding?


Read the links posted in the news section, it's all in there.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: ChristineM on August 24, 2007, 12:18:11 PM
For those of us who have spent time in Ekaterinburg, Ganina Yama, Pig's Meadow and the Koptiaki Woods, this comes as chilling news.   We could actually have been walking over the remains of those children.   According to the news, they were buried at a depth of 24 inches.   It is absolutely horrible.   

Ganina Yama is now a place of such beauty and peace - created by a devoted team of Russian Orthodox priests and monks.   They have build a Church in memory of all those members of the Imperial who have been found - five in all.   It is an amazing site - impossible to believe a single tree was removed to make room for those exquisite little wooden churches - each built without one single nail.   

If it is established that these are the remains of the missing Romanov children, these remarkably commited holy men will ensure that in the near future Churches are built in their memories too.

tsaria
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on August 24, 2007, 12:23:26 PM
well no doubt the bones will go to join the rest of the family bones in St.Petersburg ... the rest of their remains will remain forever in the earth
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 24, 2007, 01:02:49 PM
I believe it is now okay for me to reveal that I was told that such an announcement would be made before the end of August 2007.

Information which was critical to this discovery was delivered to Alexander Avdonin in past months. Avodonin, of all who searched for the remains, was in our opinion, the one most dedicated to this discovery, and much credit is due to him.


Interesting info about the searcher, and the secret about waiting for the announcement.This only makes the news seem even more likely. I thought there must have been something to the Ekaterinburg news one of the members was reporting, now we  know it was big and they were waiting to announce it. Now that they have they must be rather certain they have the right stuff.

Were these people involved in SEARCH?

No. SEARCH was not involved AFAIK.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on August 24, 2007, 01:58:16 PM


Does SEARCH have any info on this find that might be helpful?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 24, 2007, 02:10:55 PM
Lisa,
Considering that the Russians have officially declared the other remains to be Anastasia's, would they be kind of forced to automatically declare these ones to be Maria's? Is there any chance they might change their previous conclusion, based on the new forensic evidence (if these are indeed Alexei's and his sister's)? Would they permit other (foreign) experts to have a look too?

I do not ask these questions to question the expertise or objectivity of the Russians, but we do have to admit that the identification of the other remains, i.e. Maria/Anastasia, was quiet contentious.

Yoyo

Yoyo: You have raised some excellent points. If someone had asked me last year what the chances would be for the remains to be discovered this year were, I would have said, slim, very slim. So, sometimes people can surprise you - in a good way.

It would be my hope that the Russians turn the forensic study over to reputable scientists and that they invite some international corroboration of their findings in all the various forensic disciplines. That is, of course, only a hope, but without it, the findings may be questioned. I think it would be yet another tragedy if these are the children's remains and have these not fully accepted because of a need to "control the truth".

I do not think that the Russians are backed into a corner on the identity of the sister. Once we know these are Romanov remains - something that I think could be done rather easily, provided the DNA is in good condition - then the findings on the previous remains can be combined and I think then that we can definitively determine who is who.

My position has always been, once we have the fourth sister, we can then and only then be absolutely sure who was who.

My expectation is that this process - as with absolutely everything concered with the Romanovs - is going to be contentious. Someone said to me yesterday, well, this will close the case. I did not laugh, but I wanted to. This is just a new chapter, not the end of the road. Having said that, they could surprise us still. However, there are still going to be people who doubt the results, you can trust me on this - no matter how carefully the science is handled.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: DeAnochka on August 24, 2007, 08:14:40 PM
Would the examiners be able to compare the bullets found in the grave to the bullets found at other sites as well? I imagine that this would be an important piece of evidence. We really have to consider the other objects found with the bones.

Also, were the skulls of the two bodies present in the grave?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 24, 2007, 08:22:26 PM
Would the examiners be able to compare the bullets found in the grave to the bullets found at other sites as well? I imagine that this would be an important piece of evidence. We really have to consider the other objects found with the bones.

Also, were the skulls of the two bodies present in the grave?

We really have no information at all about skulls or the condition of the remains. At least, not yet.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on August 24, 2007, 09:10:58 PM
One article from Russia is reporting it was 44 bone fragments and teeth:

On July 29, fragments of two bodies were found in a 60-centimeter-deep pit, including teeth and pieces of cranium, pelvis and tubular bones. Three bullets, part of a smashed glazed ceramic vessel, much charcoal and tiny bits of bone tissue were found as well.......In all, they handed over to us 44 fragments

So apparently they aren't entire skeletons, but after being burned, and then decaying for 89 years, they wouldn't be. There have also been mentions of the bones being terribly injured and damaged by fire and trauma. As a matter of fact I find the find MORE believable now that I know it's not entire bodies, because the accounts by the Bolsheviks said the bodies were burned. There shouldn't have been whole bodies if it was A and A and it's not. So this is another sign it's the right thing.

Note: I see a lot of you asking for more info and more articles and asking some of the same questions. There are a lot of links posted in two threads in the NEWS LINKS forum of this message board, and any new ones will be put there too.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: DeAnochka on August 24, 2007, 09:18:17 PM
A lot of the articles say the same thing.

Very vague things.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on August 24, 2007, 09:21:58 PM
A lot of the articles say the same thing.

Very vague things.

Yes it's true most of them are only copies of the original AP article but this one is from Russia and it is different.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: DeAnochka on August 24, 2007, 09:29:21 PM
"We know that Prince Alexei suffered from hemophilia, so we'll have to detect the genome of this disease. Next, we'll carry out a ballistic text to compare the bullets with those found at the first burial site. I'd say there's a resemblance, but we'll have to compare groove marks. Only then, using a total of all the data, one will be able to draw a logical conclusions whose remains they are," Nevolin said."

This is what I mentioned in another thread. This article does have some good info.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on August 24, 2007, 10:54:20 PM
The Russians have some of the best scientists in the world. I am sure they will do thorough examination of the remains. It is in their interests to do so. They will also invite others to examine the results. That's what they did with the original remains. I don't think people have to be skeptical.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on August 25, 2007, 01:57:23 PM
Who is credited for having found this latest  grave site???

AGRBear

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on August 25, 2007, 02:08:11 PM
Who is credited for having found this latest  grave site???

AGRBear



This story may help (originally posted by Rachael 89)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,,2155904,00.html

Everyone please keep checking the links thread, we're putting all the new stuff there and if anyone finds anything else please add it there for reference purposes even if you put it on other threads too, thanks.

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on August 25, 2007, 02:31:28 PM
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,,2155904,00.html:
>>That was until last month when Sergei Plotnikov, a 46-year-old builder, stumbled on a small hollow covered with nettles. Mr Plotnikov was part of a team from an amateur history group who spent free summer weekends looking for the lost Romanovs. Mr Plotnikov said he was searching in the clearing surrounded by silver birch trees when his prodder hit something hard.

"There was a crunching sound," he said yesterday." This means you've hit coal or bone. My friend Leonid and I started to dig. We found several bone fragments. The first was a piece of pelvis. We then discovered a fragment of skull. It had clearly come from a child. We shouted over to the archaeologists. They began an expert search. My heart leaped with joy. I knew immediately that this was the kind of thing that happens only once in a lifetime. I also felt satisfied. I knew the Romanov children would finally be united with the rest of their family."<<

It seems Sergei Plotnikov is to be given the credit.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on August 25, 2007, 02:35:05 PM
Annie: 
Quote

Everyone please keep checking the links thread, we're putting all the new stuff there and if anyone finds anything else please add it there for reference purposes even if you put it on other threads too, thanks.



What "links thread"?   

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on August 25, 2007, 02:38:05 PM
Go to the 'news links' forum, it's one of the last things on the AP forum title page. There are lots of links on this there.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on August 25, 2007, 02:58:52 PM
Will do.

While looking for the thread,  I went  to see the Last Chapter section and there I found the following article mentioned:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2324145.ece

which tells us this was  Andrei Grigorev's team.

>>Andrei Grigoryev, of the regional centre for the preservation of historical and cultural monuments, told The Times that his team had uncovered vital extra clues by examining original shorthand records of the document typed by two local secretaries. This had enabled them to narrow down the search for the grave of the missing family members, which was only 60 metres from the spot where bones said to belong to the Tsar, the Tsaritsa Alexandra and three of their daughters were recovered after the collapse of communism in 1991<<

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on August 25, 2007, 03:05:54 PM
I think Annie was referring to this link:
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,10053.0.html

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on August 25, 2007, 04:15:54 PM
Or you could just click on the big red headline across the top of the forum, it goes to a whole list of stories.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Belochka on August 26, 2007, 12:11:41 AM
Please refer to the Ekaterinburg Press Release for the facts:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,10074.0.html
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on August 26, 2007, 01:09:17 AM
Yes it truly is wonderful news. It will only get more interesting.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on August 26, 2007, 02:57:35 PM
It's so strange the original professional team searched for a year only to have the spot stumbled on years later by amateurs.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on August 26, 2007, 03:13:37 PM
It's so strange the original professional team searched for a year only to have the spot stumbled on years later by amateurs.

No it's not, read all the stories and Margarita's post in the announcement section. They had NEW info nobody else had before. And welcome back, we've missed you!
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on August 26, 2007, 06:08:23 PM
Quite correct these things take time and then all of a sudden that little piece of information is found that reveals a great deal.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 26, 2007, 06:17:09 PM
Sometimes what has been previously overlooked becomes obvious once the correct answer is known. There has been information all along within the archives, and of late in the statements of those who participated in the burials, which indicate the correct answer.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on August 26, 2007, 06:42:01 PM
Yes I agree Lisa. It is just a matter of chance sometimes and now the remains have been found and thankfully the last family members can be put to rest. The days of the fraud are over and people can concentrate on the real history of the Romanovs and Russia and not the deluded pretenders. Russian history is fascinating and doesn't need such rubbish polluting it. Certainly the Bolsheviks were odious. The one thing that becomes crystal clear was they wanted a complete eradication of the Romanovs and everything they stood for. By and large sadly they were extremely successful in fulfilling this aim. There was no going back with the majority of the Romanovs murdered. I guess the larger question is why did the Romanovs put themselves in a position where they could lose everything? That for me is the more interesting question as travelling in Russia makes you realise how very much they lost. The last Romanovs as well as the earlier great ones such as Peter, Elizabeth, Catherine and so on will continue to fascinate and inspire. They left a huge legacy. Russian history is brutal and compelling. How much the poorer the whole world would be without the magnificent culture these people have inspired. St.Petersburg is truly a magnificent gem that should be protected for generations to come. You only have to visit this city to see how the Russians themselves are immensely proud of their own culture and history no matter how poor they may be materially. To see it is inspiring. We in the west would do well to remember our past treasures rather than madly knocking them down to put up bigger and uglier highrise monstrosities that destroy the soul rather than inspiring it.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on August 26, 2007, 08:11:37 PM
It's so strange the original professional team searched for a year only to have the spot stumbled on years later by amateurs.

No it's not, read all the stories and Margarita's post in the announcement section. They had NEW info nobody else had before. And welcome back, we've missed you!

Thanks for the welcome-back, Annie!  I'm so grateful to those on this forum for answering my questions and straightening out this longstanding matter.  I will continue to follow as the DNA testing and funeral arrangements go forward.  May they rest in peace at last!
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on August 28, 2007, 03:24:21 AM
It's somehow appropriate that the remains were found in the 20th Century...just 90 years after the murders...to bring the close of an era.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 16, 2007, 11:53:50 AM
With  FA's  permission,   I was asked to open up a thread about   "What  Questions Would WE Ask About  The "New Grave" discovered 29 July 2007  if  we were  able to speak to the people invovled in the search, the discovery and the testing of what appears to be two bodies, a  young male and a female, whom the Russians  are claiming are  Tsarvich Alexei and GD. Marie.

Before I start my questions,  perhaps I should  note that because our knowledge of the discovery is so limited,   most of us can only  draw on are the newspaper reports and the press releases which has been so generously been translated for us here on this forum.  As more information is provided, some of  our questions will  be anwered, or,  cause more questions.   Therefore,  our own opinions might  change and evolve.   If I may,  I'd like to suggest:    Please read all of the thread and what people have to say before entering your opinion in the days, weeks and maybe months  to come.


Here is my first  set  of questions that bother  me about the remains found. 

#One -  The fact that there seems to be two pits and not just  just one leads me to ask the following:   
 .....A. According to all the testimonies  [accept one of Yurovsky's statements in his unpublish memiors] I've seen  we are told  both the bodies of  Alexei and  a female  were burned and then buried  in one   "pit".    Not two pits.
     
......B.  Because the two pits found are  "stair stepped"  and   not parallel but  perpendicular ( T" shaped),  this indicates  there is a possibility  that  these two "pits" were not dug at the same time.  So,  knowing how these kinds of questions would  lurk around this discovery  did the people in charge of the excavation take certain steps  which will give   evidence  of proof needed to inform the public  that these two "pits"  were dug at the same time and not at different times.

.....C.  According to Yurovsky testimonies,  all the grave diggers were exhausted and didn't want to dig one grave so why would they dig three graves?
1)  One  pit for  Alexei
2)  One  pit for a female
3)  One  mass grave for nine some 60 to 70 km from the other two  "pits"

I realize that  most posters do not have the answers to my questions and the questions  by others which will follow,  but, we  can  provide  the answers we do know  due to our  own knowledge in forensics, or,  some of us can provide   sources from  books, maybe  provide   links which will help us understand the  various subjects that might pop up in this kind of  thread.

Let me, also,  add:  I mean no disrespect to those who are working hard toward the truth on  these findings in Ekaerinburg or whereever  these remains need to be sent.

At this time,  I  see no reason not to  set up a list of questions that we'd like to  have anwered at some point in time.


Kipling once wrote:

>>I keep six honest serving-men
  (They taught me all I knew):
Their names are What and Why and When
   And How and Where and Who.<<


AGRBear



Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on September 16, 2007, 02:54:17 PM
Quote
evidence  of proof needed to inform the public  that these two "pits"  were dug at the same time and not at different times.

Bear, remember, NO OTHER BODIES have ever been found in the area. Why all of a sudden would you expect there to be another random person burned exactly the same way very close to this pit? Is it because you are still hoping to claim one person got away?

I trust the experts and what they have told us, and know they wouldn't be so confident without good reason.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 16, 2007, 04:19:07 PM
Quote
evidence  of proof needed to inform the public  that these two "pits"  were dug at the same time and not at different times.

Bear, remember, NO OTHER BODIES have ever been found in the area. Why all of a sudden would you expect there to be another random person burned exactly the same way very close to this pit? Is it because you are still hoping to claim one person got away?

I trust the experts and what they have told us, and know they wouldn't be so confident without good reason.

OTHER BONES

I am not asking question about the bones  found by Michael Buchanan-Smart last July  [2006] or this summer near this same area.   

I am not asking questions about  the five bodies found by  Four Brother's Mine or  the other bones or bodies found in other mine shafts in this area  or even the bones or bodies found in the cemeteries in or near Ekaterinburg.

These questions are about the present findings, which we're being told are Alexei and Marie.

DEATHS BY FIRE

Deaths by fire are not unusual.  It occures even these days  even though we have fire engines and all the modern conviences.

DEATHS DURING THE REVOLUTION

Does anyone know how many  12-15  year old  boys and  17 to 20 year old young ladies  died  and were buried in and around Ekaterinburg while the  Reds held Ekaterinburg in 1918,  or,   during  the time when Whites took and held  Ekaterinburg,  or,  when the Reds retook  Ekaterinburg in 1919  to about 1920?    There were more than 75,000 people living in this Ural city.

------

Annie,     If you don't have any questions about the new findings,  that is your decision. 

Let me remind you,  FA has given me permission to ask the questions.

[
 While we are waiting for the results:   I  do have a train load of questions.  If you want me to list some of  the questions I've mention over on that other forum,  I'll be happy to do so.   But,  I didn't think you wanted any kind of  discussion here.   Was I mistaken?


AGRBear

Bear,
Thank you for answering your questions. I hope now everyone will be on the same page.  As for your questions about the recent discoveries, OF COURSE we want you to discuss them here, if you care to.  There is no reason why they should not be discussed here, if you wish it.  Please start an appropriate thread for any question you have.

FA




AGRBear

PS  If you don't wish to ask the questions  yourself,  PM  Bear and I'll  be glad to ask.

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on September 16, 2007, 09:09:37 PM
Quote
Does anyone know how many  12-15  year old  boys and  17 to 20 year old young ladies  died  and were buried in and around Ekaterinburg while the  Reds held Ekaterinburg in 1918,  or,   during  the time when Whites took and held  Ekaterinburg,  or,  when the Reds retook  Ekaterinburg in 1919  to about 1920?    There were more than 75,000 people living in this Ural city.

In another thread, Margarita informed us of a quote by one of the Russians stating that NO other bones or bodies were in the same area as the Romanovs. So there goes the idea that it 'could be anybody' or that 'the woods are a dumping ground.' It's not true. Also, the Reds did not bother to go to such great pains to hide the remains of ordinary folk. Most were just left were they died. In some cases a mass grace for an entire area was made, but no one other than the Romanovs were taken out into that forest and carefully concealed and covered up.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on September 16, 2007, 09:39:53 PM
[

Adding to FA's list, we can also add:

The Senior Moscow Procurator (criminalistics), Vladimir Soloviev, has recently affirmed that information received from the Russian Federation Security Bureau:

... that there were no political or other shootings or disposal of bodies at this site during the 1920's to 1950's,

then any reasonable person may realize that:

... with all these pieces of physical and including the historic evidence provided by the FSB there is a strong probability that the remains may indeed be authentic.

Anthropologic assessment and molecular analyses will help provide an informed conclusion.

Thus the assessment of the remains relies on a combination of many considerations.

It must also be recognized that the Russian investigations are being conducted with full and open transparency.

Margarita
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on September 17, 2007, 08:14:44 AM
The question that needs answering is the results of the DNA testing on the presumed bodies of Alexis and his sister.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 19, 2007, 04:21:28 PM
Bear's Question #2:

How many hours did it take Yurovsky and his men to burn two bodies to the point that  only 44 fragments of bones could be found  89 years later? 

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on September 19, 2007, 04:56:10 PM
Bear,

Your question presumes that the fire was responsible for the total destruction of the non-burnt remains.  We have no timeline recorded in any of the statements about the events of that day which would tell us "how long" exactly the fires were burning.  May I suggest that you also ask what kind of soil acidity is in the area (I beleive it is highly acidic).  What kind of effect the freezing and thawing of a boggy damp pit would have over the course of 90 years on human remains, and what effect the natural formation of lye would have on the remains.  You see, wood ash soaked in water forms the corrosive substance lye...thus,bones buried in wood ash, which these would, would have spent their first soggy years essentially in a lye solution...

FA
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 19, 2007, 06:26:50 PM
Sorry.  Didn't finish.  I was pulled away with a small family  crisis that needed immediate attention.   Added to the post above should  have been the following:

There was more than wood used for the fire.  Added to this was keroscene.

Yurovsky's  1920s report:
>>..around 8'oclock in the evening on the 17th,  everything necessary began to be gathered;  the kerosene, the sulfuric acid..... It had been planned to leave at 11 o'clock at night, but the incident with the Chekist held things up, and we left for the mine, togather with ropes to drag out the corpses... around 12:30 on the night of the 17th to the 18th.<<



Yurovsky's  tells us in  his 1934 report

>>I drove to Voikov, head of supply in the Urals, to get petrol or kerosene, sulphuric acid too (to disfigure the faces) and, besides that, spades.<<

>>Meanehile, dawn came (this was already the third day, the 18th). The thought was to bury some of the corpses....<<

This was by the mine but this was abandoned.

They loaded the bodies and carried them to this point  in time:

>>...around 4:30 in the morning of the 19th, one of the vehicles got stuck....<<

 Yurovsky's 1920 >>We  wanted to burn A. and A. F. but by mistake the lady-in-waiting was burnt with A. instead.  We then immediately buried the remains under the fire and lit the fire again, which completely overed up traces of the diggings.<<

The digging of the mass grave was in Pig's Meadow and was ready about  "...7 o'clock..."  Yurovsky told us in 1920.

In his 1934 report Yurovsky told us:

>>...covered  over it  [mass grave] with railway ties.... and were done with it.   At 5 or 6 o'lock in the morning,  we gathered everyone together, explained the importance of what we had accomplished, warned everyone.... The boys from the regional Cheka who had lost track of us --comrades Isai Rodzinsky, Gorin and someone else--arrived when we had already finished with everything.<<

If the fire on the two bodies started as early as 4:40 in the morning and they were finished by  5,   I don't think the two bodies being burnt some 60/70 km away would have had time to burn  two bodies to a few bones and ashes.

If the fire on the two bodies lasted from 4:30  to   6,  I  still don't think  was long enough.

According to all the forensic stuff I've found on google,   a body in a crematorium subjected to a tremendous amount of  heat takes two  to two and one half hours.  The temperature would be at 1,400 to 1,800 degrees.  Even after this,  there still will be fragments of bones and teeth....

It seem to me the  burning of two bodies by Yurovsky would not have been as  effective as a cremation in a crematorium.

Some of the experts are saying,  the bodies would have not been burned to ashes and bones,  then the only difference would have been  about 40 days,  [days the regular decomposition of bodies without the burning away of flesh and fat which would have occured with fire].  Both the two pits and the mass grave were in the same kind of  ground and subjected to the same kind of temperatures.  Both the mass pit and the  two pits just found had sulferic acid.

Could Yurovsky and his men  generate enough heat in an open fire that was fueled by kerosene and I presume wood between 4:30 and 5:30,  bury the two bodies then build another fire and then douse the fire and spread the ashes before .....  say.... 7 o'clock???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on September 19, 2007, 08:31:15 PM
Bear,
WHY are you so pointedly missing the entire point of my last post? What diff. does is make whether the fire was hot enough or NOT? WHAT about the effect of 90years in the lye and freezing/thawing cycle of the Siberian weather system and soil composition?

It doesn't MATTER A WHIT ABOUT THE TEMPERATURE OF THE FREEKIN FIRE.... if you ignore the effects of 90 years in lye and then a harsh freeze/thaw cycle... now does it? or are you trying to be obtuse to prove a point?

My research shows that human bones soaked in lye lose their collagen quickly and become very friable, that is they crumble to dust easily...
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 20, 2007, 09:44:35 AM
Bear,
WHY are you so pointedly missing the entire point of my last post? What diff. does is make whether the fire was hot enough or NOT? WHAT about the effect of 90years in the lye and freezing/thawing cycle of the Siberian weather system and soil composition?

It doesn't MATTER A WHIT ABOUT THE TEMPERATURE OF THE FREEKIN FIRE.... if you ignore the effects of 90 years in lye and then a harsh freeze/thaw cycle... now does it? or are you trying to be obtuse to prove a point?

My research shows that human bones soaked in lye lose their collagen quickly and become very friable, that is they crumble to dust easily...

I thought I did answer your questions which were in the following post so let me try, again:

Bear,

Your question presumes that the fire was responsible for the total destruction of the non-burnt remains.  We have no timeline recorded in any of the statements about the events of that day which would tell us "how long" exactly the fires were burning.

BEAR ANSWERS: I mentioned that there was fire,  kerosene and sulferic acid. 

I had asked:
Quote
Bear's Question #2:

How many hours did it take Yurovsky and his men to burn two bodies to the point that  only 44 fragments of bones could be found  89 years later? 

I did mention the 89 years.

 
Quote
  May I suggest that you also ask what kind of soil acidity is in the area (I beleive it is highly acidic).  What kind of effect the freezing and thawing of a boggy damp pit would have over the course of 90 years on human remains, and what effect the natural formation of lye would have on the remains.  You see, wood ash soaked in water forms the corrosive substance lye...thus,bones buried in wood ash, which these would, would have spent their first soggy years essentially in a lye solution...

FA


We are fortunate to be able to compare the mass grave with the most recent two pits and remains found.

I assume that the mass grave went under the same changes [sulferic acid, cold, heat,  moisture....]  from July of 1918 to 1991.

Here is a photo of what the Russians found  in 1991.

Photo is said to have been taken during excavation of the nine skeletons found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow near Ekaterinburg, Siberia in 1991 by the Russians.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/PigMeadowGraveSm.jpg)

Someone sent me the photo above.  We do not know where to find the original source so I can not give anyone credit.  If you know, let me know, and I'll place the credit with this photo.
...[in part]...

AGRBear

As you can see there are quite a few  whole  and fragmented bones. 

So why are there so few bones found in the two new pits?  There are 206 bones in a human body.  Two bodies make 412.

What about the teeth?  Four teeth or was it five, were found.  There should have been at least 40 teeth which according to stuff I've read last the longest in graves.

There were two differences between the mass grave's remains  and  remains in the two pits recently found:

(1)  The two bodies were in the ground 16 more years.  Maybe,  the extra 16 years in the boggy acid and lye like mixture in the  soil and weather made the difference.  Was it?

(2) The  other difference between the two remains and the nine in the mass grave were not burnt but   the two bodies of Alexei and a female were said to have been burnt.  [See above for my questions about the burning of the bodies.].

So,   let me rephrase my question to the scientists:

Would the extra 16 years and the burning of the two bodies be the reason why there are only 44 fragments of bones and so few teeth?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 20, 2007, 09:59:41 AM
Here is  the upper skelton of Nicholas II found in the mass grave:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/NicholasIIRibs.jpg)

From what I understand,  Alexei was just as tall as his father,  although thiner due to his last bout with his hemophilia, by July of 1918.

If I remember correctly,  Nicholas II was about 5 feet 7 inches.

Is there something else, like "the effect the natural formation of lye",  I've missed which would explain the differences between the mass grave and the two newly found "pits"?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on September 20, 2007, 10:00:30 AM
16 years is only 15% longer, so doubtful to account for much. HOWEVER the other 9 bodies were NOT buried in wood ash.  Please go re read the accounts of the burning where they stated clearly that there were two fires. First was the one with the bodies, then they dug a pit and pushed all the remains into it, then burned a SECOND fire on top, dug that up and scattered the remaining ashes around. LOTS of wood ash.  The other bodies were put into a pit without any fire.

So dear Bear, instead of sitting on your butt asking questions, go off and do some research about what happens to bones and teeth buried in wood ash in a damp environment. How about bringing some ANSWERS to the table instead of incessant question that dont' mean much? Doesn't Cal have libraries??
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 20, 2007, 10:30:58 AM
As I have noted in my first post,   the public doesn't know that much about the two pits found.   

In your  quote which tells us what we are to know I don't see the mention of  wood ashes:

People keep asking the same questions over and over again, so I have decided to put all the basic information in one place to keep these repetiious posts to a minimum.


On July 29, 2007, certain items were discovered by S.O. Plotnikov and L.G. Vakhmyakov.  In the bore pit that had been located and explored, coals, bone remains, nails and fragments from a ceramic vessel were unearthed.  The spot where the remains were found this summer appears to correspond to a site described by Yakov Yurovsky, the leader of the family's killers, said Sergei Pogorelov, deputy head of the archaeological research department at a regional center for the preservation of historical and cultural monuments in Yekaterinburg.

The deputy director of the Center of protection and use of the cultural heritage of Sverdlovsk, Andreï Grigoriev, told  journalists that the researches had begun after the discovery of archival documents.

" I learnt that the former regional archives of the Communist Party received documents speaking about the murder of the imperial family and about a fruitless attempt to hide corpses ", clarified Mr Grigoriev.

These documents had allowed the specialists to establish the place where the tsarevich Alexis and the grand duchess Marie would have been buried. Following the search organized on a site of 100 square meters, the researchers had discovered the remains of human bodies, bullets, fragments of wooden boxes and fragments of ceramic which, according to preliminary estimations, represented fragments of amphoras used to hold some acid.

an area of 100 square meters was laid out for further investigation.  The work was carried out according to archeological methods, with the use of drainage trenches.  As a result of this exploration, a large spot of coal was exposed.  Upon further examination, this spot was determined to be T-shaped.  After removing the layer of coal, the shapes and sizes of two overlying pits became evident in the subsoil.

    An area discovered along the Old Koptyaki Road presented double bonfire sites, spread between pits, which contained bone remains in various degrees of preservation and condition; bullets; iron nails and angles, fragments of a ceramic vessel and other objects.

•    Initial anthropological analysis determined that the bone remains were human, subjected to varying forms of destruction – including burning.  The bones belong to two young individuals – a young man between the ages of 10-13 years, and a young woman about 18-23.

•    Ceramic vessel fragments are identical to those found in the original burial site found in 1991, and appear to be fragments from ceramic amphorae containing Japanese sulfuric acid. Analysis matches these to be identical to the ones found in the burial site of the other bodies.  Yurovsky et al all describe the procuring and use of this acid during the attempted burning and burial process.

•    Iron angles and nails, apparently, appear to have held together the wooden crates containing the vessels with the sulfuric acid.

•    The metal jacket bullets are of different calibers, from cartridges for short-barreled firearms.  Analysis matches these to be identical to the ones found in the burial site of the other bodies discovered in  1991.

The Forensic Director of Medicine of Sverdlovsk Mr Nevoline clarified that the forensic scientists had also received seven fragments of teeth, three bullets of a weapon with short standard cannon and a fragment of fabric of garment.
 G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning in 1918. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers."

The three bullets also match exactly those found in the "mass grave" previously found in1991.
“The remains have been exposed to extreme heat, and the bullets were found close to the bones and must have hit the victims’ bodies,” Mr. Nevolin said

I do see the mention of "coal" but not sure if that was found just as a layer when someone had a fire to warm themselves or if that was part of the actually grave.

I don't think there was any mention of wood ashes in Belochka's  translated press statement release either.

So,  according to FA,  there was enough wood ash to have created a  "lye" that would have dissolved the bones and teeth.

How would I know about the wood ashes acutally exsisting within the grave creating a "lye"   before you're statements here?  I couldn't have.

Due to my busy life,   I cannot just jump over to UC Berkeley and spend hours looking up stuff everytime a question pops in Bear's head.  Even if I could,  I don't have enough information about the newly found graves.  And that is why I'm asking these questions.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dolgoruky18 on September 20, 2007, 12:12:25 PM
To AGRBear:

I would like to say how much I appreciate your persistence in the face of discourtesy on the part of someone in the Forum Administration. If you can stand the heat of a fire which is still burning after 90 years, then there is hope for others who still want answers.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 20, 2007, 12:35:06 PM
Bear's Question #3:

News article found in'
Guardina Unlimited
Bones found by RUssian builder finally solve riddle of the missing Romanovs
Saturday,  25 Aug 2007
by Luke Harding in Moscow

.....[in part]....

>>That was until last month when Sergei Plotnikov, a
46-year-old builder, stumbled on a small hollow
covered with nettles. Mr Plotnikov was part of a team
from an amateur history group who spent free summer
weekends looking for the lost Romanovs. Mr Plotnikov
said he was searching in the clearing surrounded by
silver birch trees when his prodder hit something hard.
"There was a crunching sound," he said yesterday." This
means you've hit coal or bone. My friend Leonid and I
started to dig. We found several bone fragments. The first
was a piece of pelvis. We then discovered a fragment of
skull. It had clearly come from a child. We shouted over
to the archaeologists. They began an expert search. My
heart leaped with joy. I knew immediately that this was
the kind of thing that happens only once in a lifetime. I
also felt satisfied. I knew the Romanov children would
finally be united with the rest of their family." <<

When looking up the growth of a human skull I found out that the growth for a male's skull  is to about the age of 16.

Alexei was 14.

From what I understand,  he was about as tall if not taller than his father  who was 5' 7"  tall.  

If I am understanding this correcty,  Alexei's skull would have been about the size of Nicholas II's.

Was  Sergei Plotnikov mistaken when he told the press that the skull  "clearly come from a chld"???

Or,  was the skull  the grand duchess Marie's?     The thing is:  She was an adult and would have had an adult's skull like her sisters'  found in the mass grave. So,  I am uncertain about this information in this particular article.

SPECULATION:  Since he found just a "fragment of skull"   was Plotnikov misquoted or was something was lost in the translation.?  Should the article have read tht   he found was a skull frament which he believed to be from  one of the children of  Nicholas II's.   Am  I  right or wrong? END OF SPECULATION

The people who are  reading just the newspaper articles may be misled  by  reporters who jump to conclusions or don't know very much about these findings and dig out old articles which may have or may not have correct information.

Is there anything in other  articles which we should be aware that contain some "misinformation" and if there are,  what is the "misinformation".

AGRBear

 
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on September 20, 2007, 02:54:53 PM
As I have noted in my first post,   the public doesn't know that much about the two pits found.   

In your  quote which tells us what we are to know I don't see the mention of  wood ashes:

I do see the mention of "coal" but not sure if that was found just as a layer when someone had a fire to warm themselves or if that was part of the actually grave.

I don't think there was any mention of wood ashes in Belochka's  translated press statement release either.

So,  according to FA,  there was enough wood ash to have created a  "lye" that would have dissolved the bones and teeth.

How would I know about the wood ashes acutally exsisting within the grave creating a "lye"   before you're statements here?  I couldn't have.

Due to my busy life,   I cannot just jump over to UC Berkeley and spend hours looking up stuff everytime a question pops in Bear's head.  Even if I could,  I don't have enough information about the newly found graves.  And that is why I'm asking these questions.

Sigh, Bear....

You ought to put your thinking cap on before you start rattling off questions. Just a little common sense, OK?
How do you think they tried to burn the bodies? They gathered WOOD and then put the bodies on the wood and dumped gasoline on them. Then a second fire on top of that. What do you think they burned? MORE WOOD....ERGO: wood ashes!

Why on earth do you "expect" wood ashes to be left in the grave pits after 90 years? Haven't you ever had a compost pile in the garden? Gimme a break on this one, puhleeze. You have to have the basic common sense to know that organic material like wood ash totally decomposes most especially in a wet environment such as the location in question.

Lastly, again, pretty common knowledge that wood ash soaked in water creates "caustic soda" or "Lye". Heck I learned this when I was about 8 years old from an episode of "The Beverly Hillbillies"....I can still see Elly May stirring the cauldron...

Dolgoruky may find her constant questions reasonable. but after years and years now, some of us have lost what little patience we once had. Bear has nothing but questions, never provides answers, expecting others to do the legwork for her since "she is just too busy"....
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on September 20, 2007, 06:43:43 PM

Lastly, again, pretty common knowledge that wood ash soaked in water creates "caustic soda" or "Lye". Heck I learned this when I was about 8 years old from an episode of "The Beverly Hillbillies"....I can still see Elly May stirring the cauldron...



LOL, me too! And Granny fighting with Miz Drysdale over the right to make soap!
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on September 20, 2007, 08:04:27 PM
That's the episode! and then the City of Beverly Hills tries to stop Granny's lye soap making because it creates smog...Glad I'm not the only old guy around who remembers this stuff. LOL.

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on September 21, 2007, 07:43:32 AM
Soap!! Now was Granny Clampett a relation of Anna Anderson/Franziska Schankowska or is that just another myth and legend of survivors? I guess that is too grave to answer.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on September 21, 2007, 08:26:55 AM
Isn't this off topic?  I thought that wasn't allowed!
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 21, 2007, 09:21:31 AM
Since I never watched the Beverly Hillbillies,  I'm afraid my education was limited,  however,   I am aware of the making of lye soap, but  soap wasn't the chemical reaction which FA and others claim that was the cause of the recently found remains to be affected and was not part of the decomposition of the remains in the mass grave where more bones were found and hadn't decomosed as the two human remains  apparently have in the two newly fond pits.

While I  try to find a couple of things,   why don't some of you take a look at the sites which talk about how to make lye:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_ashlye.html

Please note how much wood ashes are needed to make  lye.

Also,  look up the recipe for lutefisk,  a Scandavian white fish marinated in lye.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 21, 2007, 09:30:32 AM
Do not view the following web site  if you like little pigs because this shows how little pigs decompose.

The process takes about 40 days:

http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/decomposition/living_pig.htm

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 21, 2007, 09:57:04 AM
Here is  information on bodies decomposing:

http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/decomposition/cheating.htm

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on September 21, 2007, 09:58:54 AM
Bear, what exactly does this have to do with the subject at hand.  These remains are 90 years old and were subjected to fire first...These aren't pigs left to lie in a field for a year, this isn't fish filets soaked in a lye solution....These links are pointless.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 21, 2007, 10:40:02 AM
Pigs are used to demostrate the rate of decomposition in humans.

I thought that others might find it interesting to see how long it takes for a  pig to decompose without being in the ground.

This process  above ground and not subjected to fire took 40 days.

Did you notice how long the white fish was marinating in lye?

What has this to do with the decomposition of two bodies?  Seems obvious to me.   I'm trying to show how your conclusion that the two bodies did decompose to a mere 44 fragments of bone and pieces of 7 teeth in the 89 years with the sulferic acid and  wood ash.

So,  if you'd be so kind,  be patient with old Bear, who's trying to think under this darm cap you're making me wear.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 21, 2007, 10:44:26 AM
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/fireplaceAshes.jpg)

Our kitchen firepalce is quite large,  about 47 x 25 inches...

Please notice the amount of ashes within....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on September 21, 2007, 10:49:28 AM
bear,

before we wander too far down a path, they had entire trees, logs of firewood. probably the equivalent to at least half a cord, if not a whole cord.  we are talking about a LOT more wood than you burn in your kitchen fireplace.  Remember, they were bodies of humans over 5' tall they were burning...ok?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 21, 2007, 10:53:50 AM
Please notice that we have a gas  pipe which we use to start  our  dry wood and may keep it on longer if the wood is damp because no one covered it before the first  big rain.

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/Gase.jpg)

AGRBear

PS   Less than half a cord of wood photo is going to be shown next but I have to hop over to photobucket to get it.

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 21, 2007, 11:02:44 AM


bear,

before we wander too far down a path, they had entire trees, logs of firewood. probably the equivalent to at least half a cord, if not a whole cord.  we are talking about a LOT more wood than you burn in your kitchen fireplace.  Remember, they were bodies of humans over 5' tall they were burning...ok?



On the following site is a great picture of what  a half cord looks like and a whole cord.

http://www.nielsentreefarms.com/firewood_sales.htm

I've got to do some stuff  before the  new dish washer arrived but will be back this morning if I can.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 21, 2007, 12:25:08 PM
While waiting for the dishwasher man,   let me  present the photo with the two half  cords of wood:


(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/WoodStackW.jpg)

Noitce that the wood has been split .

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 21, 2007, 01:33:18 PM
Notice the uncut  pile of wood behind the two neatly stacked  one half cut and split cords of wood:

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/uncutWood.jpg)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on September 21, 2007, 01:47:18 PM
Far more on point than quibbling over what a cord of wood looks like:

From Wikipedia
Caustic soda, or lye:
Tissue Removal: This is a process that was used with farm animals at one time. This process involves the placing of a carcass into a sealed chamber, which then puts the carcass in a mixture of lye and water, which breaks chemical bonds keeping the body intact. This eventually turns the body into a coffee-like liquid, and the only solid remains are bone hulls, which could be crushed between one's fingertips. It is also of note that sodium hydroxide is frequently used in the process of decomposing roadkill dumped in landfills by animal disposal contractors

Sodium hydroxide has also been used by criminals and serial killers to dispose of their victims' bodies.[


Sodium Hydroxide (Caustic Soda)
Hazards:  Concentrated material is very corrosive to human tissue; generates considerable heat when dissolved in water or when mixed with acid;
Source: Handbook for First Responders. EMS.

    

Quicklime and caustic soda water effects on a fresh cadaver.
Publication Date: 22-JUN-07
Publication Title: The Forensic Examiner
This article is based on a case study where a fresh cadaver was subjected to such chemicals agents for about 1 year. It also describes changes on soft and bone tissues, hair, and dental pieces. The study showed that hair and long bones ephyphysis are more resistant to the effects of those chemical agents (caustic soda) than other parts of the human body, like teeth and soft tissue.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 21, 2007, 02:17:47 PM

   


Do you have a link to this "Quicktime and caustic soda water effects on fresh cadaver" ?   I like to view it.

As for the cattle,  they were placed in a seal container with concentrated lye and water.   Concentrated lye wasn't used  on the two bodies found in the two pits.  

They did have sulferic acid.  

Somewhere I believe there is an actual list of the amount of kerosene and sulferic acid purchased by Yurovsky.   I don't recall where.  Can anyone lead me the source or  post it?   Thanks.



AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 21, 2007, 02:57:43 PM
Quicklime and causic soda  suggested by FA:
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-6684306_ITM

Can NOT see the photos unless you join goliath.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on September 21, 2007, 08:20:21 PM
Bear,

To be of any use, do this. Go buy two pork rib slabs, to approximate smaller bones, two beef rib slabs to appoximate larger bones and two beef leg bones.  Take about 1/3 cord wood in your fire place, put the meat on the wood, douse with fire starter and burn. Dig a hole in your yard, put all the remains and ash in it. water it almost daily and let us know what you find in about six months.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Belochka on September 21, 2007, 09:31:04 PM
Bear,

To be of any use, do this. Go buy two pork rib slabs, to approximate smaller bones, two beef rib slabs to appoximate larger bones and two beef leg bones.  Take about 1/3 cord wood in your fire place, put the meat on the wood, douse with fire starter and burn. Dig a hole in your yard, put all the remains and ash in it. water it almost daily and let us know what you find in about six months.

A picnic for the local racoons!
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on September 22, 2007, 05:05:12 AM
When's the BBQ AGR Bear? Can anybody come?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dolgoruky18 on September 22, 2007, 05:47:00 AM
AGRBear, I find your posts describing your experiments irresistible. It's delightful to find someone with an enquiring mind. If you are serious  -  and I don't see why you should be put to so much expense  -  then do tell us all about it. But be sure to list all your sources  -  including the quality of the gasoline you use, the wind direction, temperature  -  and if the quality of the acid matched that available to the Russians in Ekaterinburg in 1918. For this you will need to contact Japanese manufacturers, industrial historians etc. etc. before you are taken seriously by the powers that be.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Lemur on September 22, 2007, 09:18:15 AM
How very appropriate to use pigs as a substitute for human bodies. Just like in Snow White when the hunter used a pig's heart to substitute for Snow White since he didn't have the heart to kill her. When she came back to life, I bet everyone thought she must have been a claimant and denied her true identity.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on September 22, 2007, 10:19:10 AM
I sure wouldn't want to be the next door neighbour if two large pigs are going to be cremated with gasoline and all the rest nearby. It sounds utterly frightful and rather bizarre to say the least. Far better to put them on a spit and invite the family for roast pork and apple sauce with some nice salads AGR Bear. You might even be able to import some wines from the Massandra vineyards in the Crimea that the Romanovs once controlled. That would be a truly imperial feast. After all why waste two good pigs?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Greenowl on September 22, 2007, 11:03:15 AM
Spannferkel!! Yummy!

Now that is the best suggestion I have heard for a long time.

Mind you, I assume there must be laws and by-laws and such-like that prohibit such activities in the average garden because, as Dmitri stated, it could be quite trying for the neighbours.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on September 22, 2007, 11:05:11 AM
Mmm, you're all making me hungry. Luckily my next door neighbor, who is not bear, is grilling ribs tonight and we're all invited!
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Greenowl on September 22, 2007, 11:17:28 AM
Don't make me jealous...I have to work tonight. (Perhaps I should change my name from Greenowl to Night owl...it might be more appropriate).
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 23, 2007, 12:59:19 PM
Back to the purose of this thread.

Here are some questions we know that are being asked.

The Senior Procurator, Vladimir Soloviev has announced that the following scientific examinations will take place on the 2007 Ekaterinburg excavation remains by the Team of 12 Experts:

Firstly, the anthropological and stomatological expertizing will take place.

Followed up by the Criminalistic evaluation of:

1. the bullets,
2. the cloth fragments.

3. Compare these objects with those found in 1991.

4. Examine the charred fragments of wood from the fire.

Initial questions which the experts will evaluate will be:

1. How many individuals?
2. The sex?
3. The age?
4. Are there any traces of injury to the bones? -> If there are, what is the source of the injury(ies)? type of injury(ies)?
                                                                  -> Was(were) the injury(ies) sustained during life or postmortem?

The next phase of the Soloviev Inquiry will be genetic profiling.

A direct comparison will be made using the 2007 bone samples with the DNA profiles from the 1991 bone samples.

Margarita Nelipa


If anyone has any of their own questions but are afraid they might be rediculed,  just PM me,  as you can see,  Bear's  skin is thick and  can take the sting of redicule and rejection,  because I am, afterall,  just tryng to discover the truth of  what is, the possibilites, what is past the  "dead end"  zone, and  the highly unlikely, which is next to THE impossible stuff...   

AGRBear

PS  The PARTY was great but no one came early enough to helped us  gather  all the wood needed  for the roasting which we did  in a pit  (under the ground and covered with palm leaves)  like they do in Hawaii.  [Here is another way. See the following web site: http://cuban-christmas.com/pigroast.html]. The results:  Deliciously  good....  And, yes, there was plenty of honey and real butter  for the freshly baked bread and....  Well,  you had to have been here.   Maybe, next time all  you can come to Bear's Party. :)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Ivan Komarov on September 23, 2007, 02:14:53 PM
I return.

So...it would appear I missed a lot.  There was nowhere more appropriate for me to post this, but if someone could just sum all this up for me (I've been gone for months and months) I'd be eternally grateful...if I'd been here when the news broke, I might have been able to keep up, but now there's so much information to sort through.

I suppose at the moment, though, my main question is simply "are they sure?", but it's probably been answered already.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on September 23, 2007, 02:36:11 PM
I return.

So...it would appear I missed a lot.  There was nowhere more appropriate for me to post this, but if someone could just sum all this up for me (I've been gone for months and months) I'd be eternally grateful...if I'd been here when the news broke, I might have been able to keep up, but now there's so much information to sort through.

I suppose at the moment, though, my main question is simply "are they sure?", but it's probably been answered already.

Click the big banner link at the top of the page! That and two other threads in 'forum announcements' will tell all!
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 24, 2007, 02:20:30 PM
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/PitAMuck.jpg)

Since the buriel in 1918  and the discovery and diggings  were both in July,  this gives us a good idea what it was like for the soldiers to be digging the original two pits in which to bury the two adult size bodies.

As you can see,  the men are wearing boots in the mucky soil and notice that there is water in the pit dug and this is after a trench was dug to  send the surface water off in a different direction.

I believe they are measuing the depth (surface to first bone) found in the one pit.

This photo is, also, from Belochka who so generously has posted it on another thread.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 24, 2007, 02:48:00 PM
20 June/ 3 July
Alexander's Diary:

>>...In the night srong rain & thunderstorm.

 A LIFELONG PASSION  collecttion by Maylunas and Mionenko

In FALL OF THE ROMANOVS by Steinberg & Khustalev

p. 334

29 June/12 July

Alexandra wrote:
>..in the afternoon ther were severl showers & short thunderstorms.<<

30 June /13 July
>>Rianed in the night.<<

3 July/16 July

When Alexandra went to bed it was 15 degree  which is 59 degree F.

The roads and woods would have been damp and muddy in spots, also, chilly.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on September 24, 2007, 03:36:37 PM
Alexandra did not use Celsius temperature thermometers. She used REAUMUR thermometers.  We know they used this system because several Reaumur scale thermometers were found left behind in the Ipatiev House
(see the list of items from the Sokolov report on the main APTM site, "286. A Reaumur thermometer on a metal mounting"
"335. A Reaumur thermometer").

15 Reaumur = 66 degrees Farenheit = 19 Celsius.  It wasn't chilly at all. 66 degrees late at night is comfortably cool.

(see : http://www.csgnetwork.com/tempconv.html)
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Greenowl on September 24, 2007, 04:22:27 PM
Thanks FA! That is absolutely fascinating information. I had no idea! It just goes to show that you really do learn something new every day. Actually in my humble opinion (and based on western and central European criteria) 19 degrees Celsius is fairly mild for night time, even in July. Thus while it was not clammy or oppressive it could hardly be described as "cool"
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 24, 2007, 05:28:42 PM
Alexandra did not use Celsius temperature thermometers. She used REAUMUR thermometers.  We know they used this system because several Reaumur scale thermometers were found left behind in the Ipatiev House
(see the list of items from the Sokolov report on the main APTM site, "286. A Reaumur thermometer on a metal mounting"
"335. A Reaumur thermometer").

15 Reaumur = 66 degrees Farenheit = 19 Celsius.  It wasn't chilly at all. 66 degrees late at night is comfortably cool.

(see : http://www.csgnetwork.com/tempconv.html)

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/15degrees.jpg)

p. 355 FATE OF THE  ROMNOVS

So,   this is incorrect  and it was not 59 degree  F.  but  66 degrees  F.

 Yep, always something to learn.

Thanks  FA.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on September 24, 2007, 05:56:22 PM
You're most welcome Bear.

Yes, its a typical mistake that is often made by people reading the diaries of the IF that they assume the temperatures are Celsius.  I myself used to think so, until I started translating the Sokolov material and wondered what the many references to Reaumur thermometers meant.  Upon research, I discovered that Reaumur was the temperature scale used in Russia for the 19th century and early 20th century, and only displaced by celsius when Russia adopted the metric system after the Revolution. 

So yes, if FOTR, or any other author,  thinks that the Alexandra's diary entry temperatures are Celsius, they are incorrect.  They are Reaumur degrees.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 24, 2007, 06:04:45 PM
Wasn't THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS.   It was THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS.   My error.  See  p. 355



(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/15degrees.jpg)


AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on September 24, 2007, 06:24:13 PM
No problem Bear, either way, those authors are still in error about the temperatures being in Celsius.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 24, 2007, 06:31:57 PM
LAST ACT OF A TRAGEDY by  V. V. Alekseyev p. 144:

Sukhorukov contintued  p. 144:

>>We decided to burn two corpses on the fire and did so. For our sacrifical altar we got the last heir.  The second body was the youngest daughter Anastasia.  After the corpses were burned, we scattered the ashes, dug a pit in the centre, shoveled in all the unburnt remainders,  made a fire again on the same spot and finished the work.<<

--End of the testimony about the buriel of the eleven corpses.--

What did we learn:

1.  burned two corpses on the fire
2. one body was Alexei
3.  the other body was Anastasia
4.  "our sacrifical altar"  -  I assume was wood which made ashes.   Doesn't  mention where the wood came from.   I don't think you can make a "altar" out of  kerosene which they probably did use and  poured it on  the corpses to help them burn.
5.  doesn't tell us they poured any sulferic acid over the bodies once they were in the pit but may have
6.  mentions a pit  not two pits
7.  waited as the corpses   burned; waited so they could dig a pit  in the center, then pushed in the "unburnt remainders" in pit, covered  it up
8.  made another fire and spread the ashes

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 24, 2007, 06:51:48 PM
You're most welcome Bear.

Yes, its a typical mistake that is often made by people reading the diaries of the IF that they assume the temperatures are Celsius.  I myself used to think so, until I started translating the Sokolov material and wondered what the many references to Reaumur thermometers meant.  Upon research, I discovered that Reaumur was the temperature scale used in Russia for the 19th century and early 20th century, and only displaced by celsius when Russia adopted the metric system after the Revolution. 

So yes, if FOTR, or any other author,  thinks that the Alexandra's diary entry temperatures are Celsius, they are incorrect.  They are Reaumur degrees.

But they did use Celsius when they recorded body temp (as in when the children were ill, etc.), correct?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 24, 2007, 07:12:07 PM
Here is what Ermakov said p. 169 FILE ON THE TSAR  by Mangold and Summers:

>>...we built a funeral pyre of cut logs big enough to  hold the bodies, two layers deep.  We poured five buckets of gasoline over the corpses, and two buckets of sulphuric acid, and set the logs afire. The gasoline made everything burn rapidly.   But I stood by to see that not one fingernail or fragment of bone remained uncomsumed."

Discussion:

1.  Nine  bodies were found in a mass grave a distance from the Four Brother's Mine.  They did not show any signs of having been burnt.
2.  They did have gasoline [keroscene,  petrol] which was delivered to the mine by a truck...
3.   They did have  sulferic  acid;  he mentions just two buckets of acid were used...
4.  Still don't know where they would have gotten the  logs to cover nine  body let alone  two bodies
5.   Doesn't  give us a time frame but according to experts,  the  twol bodies  could not have been burnt to ashes  in the timeline given by  Yurovsky
6.  Makes no mention that nine were buried in the mass grave and that two were buried about 60-70 km away

Have I misssed something about Ermakov's testimony???

AGRBear




Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on September 24, 2007, 08:11:21 PM
Here is what Ermakov said p. 169 FILE ON THE TSAR  by Mangold and Summers:

>>...we built a funeral pyre of cut logs big enough to  hold the bodies, two layers deep.  We poured five buckets of gasoline over the corpses, and two buckets of sulphuric acid, and set the logs afire.

Sukhorukov contintued  Last Act of A Tragedy  p. 144:

>>We decided to burn two corpses on the fire and did so. For our sacrifical altar we got the last heir.  The second body was the youngest daughter Anastasia.  After the corpses were burned, we scattered the ashes, dug a pit in the centre, shoveled in all the unburnt remainders,  made a fire again on the same spot and finished the work.<<

This is what I know I'd seen before, that burning Alexei, the last heir, was like a symbol the dynasty would not go on. They saw it as a 'sacrificial altar' or a 'funeral pyre' made of wood, they weren't just gassed and burned. This may be the reason they burned him, and it wasn't just a random thought to disguise the number of bodies as has been suggested. There are many different accounts of the disposal by many Bolsheviks, but most of them always mentioned in some way two bodies being burned. I don't know why so many people doubted this, unless they just wanted to leave the door open for claimants, using the excuse they got away and they made up the burning story to cover up. Even Radzinsky speculated that the two bodies fell off the truck and they lied. Now we know it was true they were burned, and it makes sense it would be since the story of the burial of the others was also true.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on September 24, 2007, 08:41:23 PM
You're most welcome Bear.

Yes, its a typical mistake that is often made by people reading the diaries of the IF that they assume the temperatures are Celsius.  I myself used to think so, until I started translating the Sokolov material and wondered what the many references to Reaumur thermometers meant.  Upon research, I discovered that Reaumur was the temperature scale used in Russia for the 19th century and early 20th century, and only displaced by celsius when Russia adopted the metric system after the Revolution. 

So yes, if FOTR, or any other author,  thinks that the Alexandra's diary entry temperatures are Celsius, they are incorrect.  They are Reaumur degrees.

But they did use Celsius when they recorded body temp (as in when the children were ill, etc.), correct?

Not sure Helen,

My suspicion is that even those temperatures were Reaumur, I would suspect comparison of both temperatures of body temps would resolve the question, Body temp. parameters much smaller than weather...

All I do know is that Reaumur was indeed the prevailing temperature scale of the Imperial Court.  Maybe the doctors used  Celsius...am not sure.

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 24, 2007, 09:12:47 PM
In John O'Connor's  Book  TH SOKOLOV INVESTIGATION it mention on pps.218-220 "The Role of Yermakov in the Murder".  He  tells us there was a witness Zudikhin  who said he saw Yermakov  on 17 July returning to Verkh-Isetsk in the same  "automobile"  [truck] with empty gasoline drums.

That's what it says,  "empty gasoline drums".

This gasoline must have been used for the burning of the clothes and not any of the victims.

Doesn't  mention if a number  was given.

This tells us that he wasn't with the bodies the entire time.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on September 24, 2007, 09:28:26 PM
The O'connor translation is very flawed. I will try to look this up in the original and translate it for you. Give me a day or so.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 27, 2007, 03:36:51 PM
While you are doing that for us,  I finally remembered where I had seen the amount of kerosene/petrod/ gasoline which Zimin  had a supply order to collect at the COMMISARY OF  SUPPLY  in Ekaterinburg on 17 July 1918.   Mangold and Summer's THE FILE ON THE  TSAR 152:

>>He  [Sokolov] discovered that on 17 July a worker at the Commissary of  Supply, Zimin, called at the Russian Compny in Ekaterinburg with an order for a large quanity of sulphuric acid, signed by the regional commissar fory supply, Pyotr Vlokov.   Later the same day  Zimin came back for more acid, Sokolov concluded that it was this acid  which had been taken to the mine in wooden boxes, and also learned that large quantities of petrol had been ferried out to the4 Four Brothers [Mine shafts].  <<

>>All in  all,  Sokolov estimate that at least 131 gallons of petrol had reached the mine.<<

The amount of sulfphuric acid is not given.

We dot  know where the 131 gallons ended their journey.  Was it all delivered to the  Four Brother's  Mine and part of it was used on the clothes which were burned  near the mine?  But the truck could NOT reach the mine itself so did some of it get carted to the mine and did some of it  remain on the truck?    Was some of it saved on the truck  and later used on the two missing,  Alexei and one of the grand  duchesses?   Was some  of it returned to the Commissary of Supply?  I wonder if   any of it ended up on the black market. 

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 27, 2007, 03:51:56 PM
Geez,  it's been years and years  [book was published in1976] since I've read this entrie section of  Summer's and Mangold's   FILE ON THE TSAR.   They had gone to experts to see if there was any "glaring forensic discrepancy" of  the burning of the bodies.   Over on p. 169  they talk about the burning, the petrol and the acid. Their expert concluded:

>> Both Professor  Camps and Dr. Rich said mixing petrol and acid is perilous and counter-productive.  When ignited, sulphuric acid flares up and give off  highly dangerous fumes.  It would  simply burned monentarily and than run off into the ground beneath.<<

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 27, 2007, 06:35:11 PM


Correction:

>>We do NOT  know where the 131 gallons ended their journey.  Was it all delivered to the  Four Brother's  Mine and part of it was used on the clothes which were burned  near the mine?<<

[My typing is not very good today.  Sorry.]

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on September 28, 2007, 08:44:00 PM
Bear Question #4 - TEETH: Why were there so few teeth found in the two  pits?  

There is indication there was fire,  sulferic acid,  petrol/gasoline/kerosene, wood ashes and moisture which may have taken part in the decomposition of the remains,  including their teeth.   That said,  why would these teeth and fragment survive and not the other 40?

Are there any  records which show that Grand Duchess Marie/ Anastasia/ Tatiana/Olga  ever had teeth filled by a denist?

I've seen x-rays of Alexandra's hand,  did the denist ex-ray  the mouths of the IF?

Since  Alexei had hemophilia,  I assume he never had any dental work,  however,  I'm not sure my assumption is correct.  Did he?

Some people save their baby teeth?  Did the Alexandra save her children's baby teeth?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Belochka on September 28, 2007, 09:41:27 PM
...Since  Alexei had hemophilia,  I assume he never had any dental work,  however,  I'm not sure my assumption is correct.  Did he?


There is no problem with persons who suffer from hemophilia to have dental procedures. Depending on a few factors such as:

1. the type of procedure required (amalgam filling),
2. the location on the affected tooth that requires treatment and
3. the skill of the dentist,

the process would have been safe and relatively clean.

Margarita  
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 01, 2007, 09:19:05 AM
...Since  Alexei had hemophilia,  I assume he never had any dental work,  however,  I'm not sure my assumption is correct.  Did he?


There is no problem with persons who suffer from hemophilia to have dental procedures. Depending on a few factors such as:

1. the type of procedure required (amalgam filling),
2. the location on the affected tooth that requires treatment and
3. the skill of the dentist,

the process would have been safe and relatively clean.

Margarita  

You are aware of the risks,  now,  in 2007,  but did they when Alexei was alive 1904-1918?

It appears all kinds of medical records were saved by the Bolsheviks about the IF family,  were their dental records saved?

If there are records,  did Alexei have any fillings?

[
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 02, 2007, 11:59:32 AM
According to Summers and Mangold in THE FILE ON THE TSAR p. 515:

>>Yurovsky was given this order on the 13th, and at once preparations for the massacre began.  For the next three days, Yurovsky and Goloshchekin made trips into the woods around the city, looking for a place to hide the remains.  Fourteen miles from  Ekaterinburg, near the village of Koptyaki, they discovered a suitable site:  an abandoned mine shaft close to four lonely pine trees known to the peasants as the "Four Brothers".  At the same time, Voikov, another member of the Ural Soviet, began buying drums containing 150 gallons of gasoline and 400 pounds of  sulfuric acid.<<

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on October 02, 2007, 04:23:13 PM
Finally able to get to my Sokolov original text:

The 17 July, the secretary to commisar Voikov, named Ziminye, presented to the dry goods depot of the "Russian Comany" in Ekaterinburg an order which said: "You are ordered to deliver, without the slighest delay, to the bearer of this order, 80 kilograms of sulfuric acid. (signed) Voikov"

The same day, later in the evening, Ziminye returned to the storehouse with a second order from Voikov: "You are ordered to deliver to the bearer of this order another three demijohns of sulfuric acid. [nb: a demijohn is a large glass jar encased in wicker to prevent breakage]. (signed) Voikov."  This was all done, and thus Ziminye received a total of 190 kilograms of sulfuric acid, and was acknowledged to have taken delivery by placing his signature onto Voikov's orders.

The inquest also established that they had already brought a large quantity of gasoline to the mine.  The Bolsheviks transported it on trucks up to the crossing no. 184 and from there by wagons, as the last part was difficult to access by automobile.  Numerous witnesses remarked on the passage of these barrels of gasoline, all the way up to the crossing no. 184.

Among these was the engineer Valerian Kotenev: "I noticed on the automobile a metal barrel of gasoline, and it had to contain at least 160-180 kilograms of gasoline."

The checkpoint guard at crossing 184, Vassily Lobukhin also deposed as follows: "The 18 July, at about 7 in the morning or so, an automobile truck passed behind our blockade, took the Koptiaki road and stopped not far from the crossing.  I cannot say exactly what it carried, but it seemed to be barrels or crates.  After lunch, a second truck passed and stopped at the same spot.  This one I saw very well, it carried metal barrels of gasoline.  I had the idea to demand they give me some.  I took a bottle and I went to where they had parked the two trucks.  At that time then, I did not notice that anything had changed on the first truck to pass me.  On the second truck, there were three metal barrels of gasoline.  Five men were around the trucks.  I asked for gasoline and they filled my bottle."

According to the numerous eye-witness depositions brought to the inquest, we can estimate that at least 700 kilograms of gasoline had been brought to the mine."

One kilo of gasoline= 1 liter.  Thus each barrel contained about 45 gallons of gasoline.  700 kilo is almost exacly 185 gallons.
By weight, for the trucks: 80 kilos is 175 pounds.  700 kilos= 1500 pounds.  These weights were no great deal for the Fiat trucks to carry.

Sokolov  reports the men at the central garage said that the trucks returned empty, but had traces of blood obviously on the truck beds.

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 02, 2007, 05:17:59 PM
Thank you FA.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 02, 2007, 05:55:14 PM
...Since  Alexei had hemophilia,  I assume he never had any dental work,  however,  I'm not sure my assumption is correct.  Did he?


There is no problem with persons who suffer from hemophilia to have dental procedures. Depending on a few factors such as:

1. the type of procedure required (amalgam filling),
2. the location on the affected tooth that requires treatment and
3. the skill of the dentist,

the process would have been safe and relatively clean.

Margarita  

I have a question  about the teeth of  GD Maria or Tsarvich  Alexei being filled with "amalgam".    I thought  their  teeth were filled with platinum.

If you've seen the NOVA program "Anastasia: Dead or Alive?", there was some interesting things about Nicholas & Alexandra's dental health. Czarina Alexandra had quite a few fillings "probably the most expensive dental care you can imagine" they were made out of 100% pure platinum, but her teeth were in relatively good health. Czar Nicholas's teeth, uh boy, were another matter. He was actually missing many of his teeth & actually had a severe case of paradontal disease. Supposedly if he hadn't been killed when he was, he probably would have had to have his teeth pulled & have dentures made. As Dr. Maples said "One is tempted to wonder, if you're the czar, if it gives you the right not to go to the dentist as much as you should"


I remember  when  gold was used. 

>> Probably the best filling is gold. Gold fillings include other metals such as silver, copper platinum, palladium, and zinc to make the gold—about 75 percent of the filling—more durable. Gold is stronger than amalgam and lasts a long time. <<

http://www.yesmag.ca/Questions/fillings.html  

Seems royality would have used gold in those times and not platinum  so I' m surprised they  used  platinum.   

Seems  one of the writers for NOVA  had some insight into the dental health of the IF.   Wonder where the source can be found.

AGRBear



I dug out  Maples book DEAD MEN DO TELL TALES  and he wrote p. 253 about the remains found in the mass grave:

>>All the female skeletons had dental work.<<

>>The enamel surfaces of the teeth showed the signs of acid etching.<<

Body #3  whom  Maples labeled as  GD "Olga" >>Dr. Levin found extensive amalgam fillings in her teeth, a trait shared by the  other two young females.  It is very likely they were  fond of sweets, in life."

Body #7  whom Maples  labeled as  Alexandra p. 258:

>>...it was her amazing and exquiste dental work.  My colleagues, Dr. Levine, initially thought the two silvery crowns in the lower jaw were aluminum "temporities". They weren't. To his astonishment, he found they were made of platinum.  When he took flash pictures of this skull, the gleaming platinum crowns coruscated brilliantly in the sudden light. Dr. Levin also discovered beautiful porcelian crowns in this skull's jaw, along with wonderfully wrought gold fillings. It was stunning denal work, extremely costly and cunningly contrived.<<

Since Alexandra dominated the lives of  her children,  one  would think she would have demanded the  same kind of dental care she had for all  her children.    To  me "amalgam"  fillings just doesn't seem to fit the mouths of royal children.

Nicholas  II was, of couse,  not included in this teeth care because as Tsar he didn't have to open his mouth for a dentist  if he  did not  wish, and, evidently,  he did not wish it.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on October 02, 2007, 06:21:08 PM
Bear,

The definition of amalgam is merely "an alloy of mercury with another metal or metals."  On cannot put pure platinum or gold or silver for that matter into a tooth as a filling.  The mercury when combined with the platinum was used to turn the metal into a thick paste which was then used to fill the cavity.

Even if not mercury, as in these days today,  something else is mixed as an alloy with the platinum so that it will flow into the cavity and create a proper filling.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 02, 2007, 06:24:47 PM
Maples report on the teeth of the others found in  the mass grave:

What did Maples tell us about the teeth of Dr. Botkin and the others:

Maples p. 253

>>All the female skeletons had dental work.  None of the males did....<<  accept Dr. Bothkin,  see below Body #2

Body #1 whom Maples labeled as Anna Demidova:  
>>...There was a gold bridge of poor  workmanship  on the  mandilbe--not very expensive detal work.<<

Body #2  whom Maples labeled as Dr. Bothkin:
>>we knew from  historical records that Dr. Botkin had denture plate in his upper jaw, which was later extricated from the mud of the Four  Brothers Mine....Sure enough,   one of the males had a few teeth in his lower jaw, no teeth at all in his upper jaw, and probably wore false teeth in life.<<...

Body #8 whom  Maples labeled as Kharitonov  p. 257:  The maxilla of Body No. 8 was not recovered.  The mandible was recovered, but it had lost its remaining teeth at death.<<

Body #9  whom Maples labeled as Trupp p. 258:  
>>..The teeth were worn.<<

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 02, 2007, 06:39:56 PM
Bear,

The definition of amalgam is merely "an alloy of mercury with another metal or metals."  On cannot put pure platinum or gold or silver for that matter into a tooth as a filling.  The mercury when combined with the platinum was used to turn the metal into a thick paste which was then used to fill the cavity.

Even if not mercury, as in these days today,  something else is mixed as an alloy with the platinum so that it will flow into the cavity and create a proper filling.

I know.  I misspoke.   It  seems  lesser metals [not platinum or  gold]  were used in  the mix in all the  other teeth of  the grand duchesses because  they to  not  appear to have  "the gleaming platinum " or gold  like  Alexandra's teeth had.  And,   this apparently seems to be true with the teeth found  the the newely discovered two pits.  And,   I find that odd.   Certainly they could afford  gold and platinum  for their teeth before Nicholas II abdicated,  so,  why didn't  they have the best metal for their young teeth?

>> 19th century, dentists got into using amalgam—silver, tin, and mercury.<<  [ quote from Web site found in my quote above:  http://www.yesmag.ca/Questions/fillings.html]  and >>...amalgam used may have contained other metals (sometimes radioactive thorium—they didn’t know about radioactivity then).<<    >>...copper....<<

Perhaps the scientists will  add  platinum and/ or  gold to the mix of these fillings as they investigate more fully the teeth found.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 04, 2007, 11:18:08 AM
p. 256 of Maples:


>>Body No. 5 belonged to a woman in her late teens or early twenties.<<

>>Dr. Levine and I agreed that she was the youngest of the five women whose skeletons lay before us.  We concluded this from the fact that the root tips of her thrid molars were incomplete. Her sacrum in the back of her pelvis, was not completely developed.  Her limb bones showed that growth had only recently ended. Her back showed evidence of immaturity, but it was nevertheless the back of a woman at least eight yers old.  We estimated her height t 67.5 inches.<<

>>We believe this skeleton is that of Marie,  who was nineteen years old at the time of the murders.<<

67.5 = 5 feet 6 inches tall

Questions for the scentists:   

How tall  do  they estimate that the female remains in the pit of this latest  discovery is?

How tall do they estimate the male remains to be?

AGRBear



Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 04, 2007, 11:33:55 AM
Height of the other young females found in  the mass grave as reported by  Maples:
p. 255

GD Olga

>>Body No. 3's skeleton belonged to a young adult female... <<

>>..in her twentied when she died.  It has been tentatievly identified as belonging to the young Grand Duchess Olga.<<

>>She clearly was completely grown, and the roots of her thrid molars, her "wisdom teeth" were fully developed.<<

>>Regrettably the bones of the legs were not intact; they had been cut into sectons after being dug up before we arrived...<<

>>As a results,  they could not be used for height estimates.  Instead we used bones from the arms...<<

>>...we arrived at a height estimate of 64.9 inches<<

64.9 =  5 feet 4 inches 


AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 04, 2007, 11:46:10 AM
Maples continued:

GD Tatiana

p. 256

>>Body No. 6 belonged to a young woman who was ...fully grown. Her dental and skeletal development fell neatly between that of Bodies 3 and 5. There was no evidence of recent growth in her limb bones. Her sacrum and pelvic rim were mature, which made her a least eighteen.  On the basis of her limb bones,  we put her height at 65.6 inches...<<

>>...More important, her collarbone was mature, making her at least twenty years old.<<

>>...Grand Duchess Tatiana was twenty-one years and two months old at the time of the shooting, so this skeleton agree very closely with the historical record.<<

65.6 = 5 feet 5.4 inches

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on October 04, 2007, 01:47:26 PM
Maples could well have been very wrong.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 04, 2007, 03:49:17 PM
Before Dr. Maples death  in Feb 1997 he was and I'll copy this from the back of his book:

>>...distinguished service professor and curator-in-charge of the C. A. Pound Human Identification Laboratory at the Florida Museum of Natual History in Gainesville.  He was president of the American Board of Forensic Antrhopology and a fellow of the American Academy of Foresic Sciences. <<

Sounds like he knew what there was to be known then about bones which he was viewing in Russia at that time.

It was not Maples who reconstructed the various skeletons into their various piles,  it was the Russians.

And,  I'm not sure why they would have cut some of the  good bone that would have told us how tall  Olga  was.

Maples may not have been given the correct information about the disposal of the bodies  from 17 July to the 19th  but like he tells us: Dead Men Do Tell Tales  [the name of his book].

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/MaplesPicWdsBones.jpg)
Remains of Dr. Bothkin, GD Olga and Nicholas II

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 04, 2007, 04:29:01 PM
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/MariesSkullMaples.jpg)

Photo from Maples' Book.  Notice the words along side the photo, which tells us he thinks the skull is not "young" enough to be Anastasia. Evidently the method he used to judge was the closeure of  the fissures.    This method is still be using to day .


AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on October 04, 2007, 06:45:40 PM
No offense to anyone but really how in the world could any kind of facial reconstruction be done on that skull in the last pic posted by bear? There is hardly anything left to show where the features had gone. :(
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on October 04, 2007, 08:10:47 PM
Bob was there. Bob saw the remains in Ekaterinburg for himself, with Dr. Avdonin.  Bob is a trained portrait artist, used to skeletal structure and the faces of individuals.  I'm not saying its accurate or not, but he believed that he was able to identify every skull accurately, before Avdonin told him who they thought they were.  He was convinced then, and remains so today that Anastasia was in the mass grave and that Maria was the missing one.  He recognized Alexandra on sight, as well as Olga, Tatiana, Anastasia and Nicholas...in an instant. Avdonin was astounded.

Our two kopecks.

FA
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on October 04, 2007, 09:42:31 PM
Thanks for your two kopecks worth FA. I have always thought what you and Bob and Dr. Advonin believed. I do not believe the Russians had any interest whatsoever of getting things wrong. They are highly specialised in their work, well trained and also reliable. I believe Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana and Anastasia were in the pit along with Botkin, Trupp, Kharitonov? and Demidova. It would appear that the charred remains of Alexis and Maria have now been found. I wonder whether the doubters would have been so confident in their backing of Maples if (a) he had been a Russian and (b) they had not had an agenda to maintain that Anastasia had survived. It all seems way too convenient for words for their case which in most cases clutches at any straws it can find to support a person who was not even genetically connected with the Romanovs.   
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on October 04, 2007, 10:06:46 PM
 Well, at least Bob saw the remains first hand and met with Avdonin. That is light years more than most of those other "arm chair quarterbacks" who create conspiracy theories and slander the reputations of people they have never met just to support their fairy tale beliefs..
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on October 04, 2007, 10:49:43 PM
Agreed!
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on October 05, 2007, 05:07:18 AM
Maria is actually the missing girl. That picture that Bear has posted states that the skull was too old to be Anastasia. This is realy complicated. Honestly, I always thought Anastasia was the missing girl, based on the information they had. What I have read altogether, I think Anastasia. I know it was two possible things to choose from. I do not think she survived or nothing. I am not going, by based on Maples opinion.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on October 05, 2007, 07:48:55 AM
Well I should not discount the thought that Maples got it wrong. People, even experienced people, sometimes do.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 08, 2007, 12:58:04 PM
Bob was there. Bob saw the remains in Ekaterinburg for himself, with Dr. Avdonin.  Bob is a trained portrait artist, used to skeletal structure and the faces of individuals.  I'm not saying its accurateor not, but he believed that he was able to identify every skull accurately, before Avdonin told him who they thought they were.  He was convinced then, and remains so today that Anastasia was in the mass grave and that Maria was the missing one.  He recognized Alexandra on sight, as well as Olga, Tatiana, Anastasia and Nicholas...in an instant. Avdonin was astounded.

Our two kopecks.

FA


I for one  have a difficult time knowing which grand  duchess is which in photographs therefore  I  cannot claim  any kind of expertise on this subject. 

Is the following  what Bob and the Russians believe  is correct or do  I need to change the position of the three skulls?

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/5Heads3KskullsMatch1.jpg)

The skulls found in the mass grave were Anastasia, Olga and  Tatiana.   They believe the missing grand duchess was Maria.

The skulls shown here have been pieced togather  with glue.

Did Bob see the skulls  before or  after the bites and pieces of these skull were glued into place by the Russians.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on October 08, 2007, 01:53:39 PM
Bob saw the reconstructed skulls.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 17, 2007, 05:41:59 PM
1 Oct 2007
Russian Newspaper:  Intefax

Interfax wrote  article on the new discovery  in which  the following is a part:

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/HeightsRedLineInterfax1-1.jpg)

Since I don't read Russian,   I have been  told that this tells us that  the Russians are  indicating  the remains of the  female, Marie,  estimated height is 160 cm = 5 feet 2.5 inches  tall and that the male, Alexei,  estimated height  is  142-143 cm  or 143=  4 feet 6.9 inches  tall. 

I will take my remarks to the How Tall Was Alexei When He Died  thread.

AGRBear


This photo was taken 4/17 Oct 1916 and the girls are not lined up as they are in the next  photo so heights are difficult to determine:[/quote]
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/HeightsAllHussarLinesWeb.jpg)

Nicholas II was 5 feet 7 inches tall.

About four months later:

This photo was taken in the Sping of 1917:
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/4MeaslesNamed4.jpg)

All the girls look about the same height as in the Oct. 1916 photo.

Tatiana who looks about 5 feet  6 inches - taller than Olga and Marie
Anastasia - shortest of the girls and believed to be about 5 feet 2 inches
Alexei - 3 months later was  said to be 5 feet and 1/2 inch tall


BEAR's OPINION:

I think  Alexei was close to his father's height  5 feet 6 to 5 feet 7 inches tall by July of 1918.   Why?  The average growith for a boy this age is 3.5 inches a year.  If  Alexi was  5 feet  1/2 inch on 1 Jan. 1917  then from  1 Jan. 1917 to 1 Jan 1918 he would have been about  5 feet 4 inches tall.  Add another  seven months and add another  2 inches and that would make him about 5 feet 6 inches tall.

His weight was probably more than 80 pounds because in one of the diaries we are told that Alexei was feeling better and his appetite had increased AND that that he was eating well.  He still wasn't  mobile enough to burn off any calories.  By this time there was more starch in their meals than meat.  Probably weight closer to 90 pounds. 

Since Anastasia was known to be about 5 feet 2. inches tall  in 1918,  we can tell by the photos that Marie was taller.  Most think she was about 5 feet  6 inches.  She was taller than 5 feet 2  inches.

The estimated height of Alexei and Marie,  as told in the news Interfax,  [seen  in above post]  indicates they believe the two newly found remains are 4 feet 6 inches for Alexei and 5 feet 2.5 inches for Marie.  The reporter must have been in error when he reported what the scientist believe.  If in fact the report is true,  then,   it would appear that  someone didn't  estimate the heights correctly.   Water,  acid,  fire  and decomposition does not shrink bones.

QUESTION FOR SCIENTISTS:

Was the report in error?



AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 17, 2007, 05:50:05 PM
THE SOKOLOV INVESTIGATION  translated with commentary by John F. O'Conor pps  117-125

Priest by the name of Storozhev testified:

>>Sunday, May 20 (June 2), I had finished the regular service.... <<

He was summoned to the Ipatiev House to give a service.

>>...and Alexei.  The latter was lying on a traveling  (folding) cot and I was shocked by his appearance.  He was pale to such a degree tht he seemed transparent.  He was gaunt and so very tall I was astounded.<<

"....so vey tall I was astounded"


AGRBear




Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: BobAtchison on October 18, 2007, 04:18:10 PM
Here are all the pictures I have of the skulls.  Sorry they aren't larger.

Bob
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/skulls.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/ris01mai.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/ris02mai.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/ris03mai.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/ris04mai.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/ris05mai.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/ris06mai.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/ris07mai.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/ris08mai.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/ris09mai.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/ris10mai.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/ris11mai.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/ris12mai.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/ris13mai.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/ris14mai.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/ris15mai.jpg)
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/skulls/facial.jpg)
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 18, 2007, 04:44:38 PM
Many thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on October 18, 2007, 05:18:57 PM
THE SOKOLOV INVESTIGATION  translated with commentary by John F. O'Conor pps  117-125

Priest by the name of Storozhev testified:

>>Sunday, May 20 (June 2), I had finished the regular service.... <<

He was summoned to the Ipatiev House to give a service.

>>...and Alexei.  The latter was lying on a traveling  (folding) cot and I was shocked by his appearance.  He was pale to such a degree tht he seemed transparent.  He was gaunt and so very tall I was astounded.<<

"....so vey tall I was astounded"


AGRBear





Bear, even YOU already know the problem with this statement. Please to explain to me just how it would be possible for dear Father Storozhev to have been summoned to the Ipatiev House for a service on Sunday May 20 (OS) and seen Alexei, when Alexei did not arrive at the Ipatiev House until May 22 (OS)

There is also another small problem.  May 20, 1918 was a MONDAY. Also, the little matter of the guards' record book of all activities and visitors to the Imperial Family at the Ipatiev House.  There is NO mention of Father Strorozhev being at the Ipatiev House on May 19 or 20.  The service was performed was on Sunday June 2 (OS).

Here is the actual passage from Sokolov (do note how much it differs from O'connor, I told you O'connor is nearly useless.)
On Sunday 20 May (2 June) 1918, I had lead the morning service in the Cathedral and when back to my house around 10 o'clock.  I drank tea, when there was a knock at the door of my flat.  I opened it myself and saw a soldier, with a bad appearance, pockmarked face and little shifty eyes.  ...  I asked him what he wanted. "We ask you to give Mass to Romanov." he answered.  Not understanding what he was suggesting, I said "What Romanov?" "The former Tsar of course!" I told him I could perform a simple service, but I told the soldier that I would have to bring a deacon with me.  The soldier was opposed for quite a while and very insistent against bringing a deacon, saying that the commandant had ordered him to only bring a priest.  However I won him over and we left together for the cathedral where I picked up the things I needed and invited Deacon Buimerov to come with me.  The three of us went by car (nb:possibly carriage as the original says only voiture) to the Ipatiev House.  ...(he describes the various checkpoints, guards and inside of the Ipatiev House.  I noticed a table a table prepared for the service.  However I didn't have time to notice the surroundings, as the moment I entered the room I saw three persons approach from the window.  It was the Tsar, Tatiana and another of the girls but I couldn't tell which one.  In the other room was the Empress, her two younger girls and the Tsarevich.  The latter was laying on a folding bed and I was struck by his appearance.  He was so pale as to be almost transparent. He had grown very thin and I was astonished at his large size. In sum, he had the appearance of someone at the last stages of an illness.  Only his eyes were clear and alive; he regarded my unknown face with interest and he was wrapped up to his belt-line with a blanket.   
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 18, 2007, 05:55:11 PM
The  dates were just  incorrectly  adjusted by the author or some editor.       A common mistake when dealing with duel dates.

No,  I  didn't know  20  May  (O.S.)/ 1 June  was a Monday.  [In some box is my magic sheet that has these numbers and days. ]

So,  2 / 15 June, a Sunday,  is the correct date.

Although your translation is slightly different,   it's about the same.    The  priest was suprised at the  size of Alexei whom  he found  to be with  " height large".

>>The latter was laying on a folding bed and I was struck by his appearance.  He was so pale as to be almost transparent. He had grown very thin and I was astonished at his large height . In sum, he had the appearance of someone at the last stages of an illness.  Only his eyes were clear and alive; he regarded my unknown face with interest and he was wrapped up to his belt-line with a blanket. <<

Then,  he did not know if   Alexei had grown,  but what  he saw was a very tall youth which surprised him and he wrote it in  his testimony.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on October 18, 2007, 06:29:57 PM
No Bear, he does not specifically say "height". I was most careful to look at the exact language.  In the next paragraph, he mentions how TALL the Empress was. "Mon attention fut attiree par le haute taille d'Alexandra Feodorovna

The original text describing Alexei is different. "m'etonna par sa grande taille"  which does not say he was tall. It means "I was astonished by his large size" NOT his height. 

haute taille = tall size
grande taille = large size

Please stop putting words where they don't belong.

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on October 19, 2007, 09:36:11 AM
No Bear, he does not specifically say "height". I was most careful to look at the exact language.  In the next paragraph, he mentions how TALL the Empress was. "Mon attention fut attiree par le haute taille d'Alexandra Feodorovna

The original text describing Alexei is different. "m'etonna par sa grande taille"  which does not say he was tall. It means "I was astonished by his large size" NOT his height. 

haute taille = tall size
grande taille = large size

Please stop putting words where they don't belong.



My  interpretation  appears to be different than your own.

FA wrote the following:
>> He had grown very thin and I was astonished at his large size<<

How do you view a "large size"  person?

Do you picture someone who is  husky or fat as being  "large size"?

The priest  told us that Alexei was  "thin"  so he wasn't talking about  Alexei being large because he was  husky or fat.

What other direction can be  an interpretation of the description of being   "large size"?

I view the priest as meaning  Alexei was tall.

This is,  of course,   my opinion,   not FA's  opinion.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on October 19, 2007, 09:55:36 AM
Bear,

That is exactly the point. To assert as "fact" that the priest thought Alexei was "tall" is to put a meaning to something that may NOT be there.  I can't disput that it "might" mean tall. BUT, just as easily, it could simply mean that Alexei was a much bigger child than he had been used to seeing.  This was not someone who knew the IF by sight from long time physical presence.  The good priest only ever saw photos and perhaps newsreels of Alexei.  The last ones published would probably have been at least almost 2 years old by June 1918, maybe say 18 months old. 

So,

the priest is used to seeing photographs of Alexei at perhaps age10 or 11 at best.  Suddenly he is now in front of the chld in person AND that child is now 13.  I know that I have myself not seen the child of a friend or cousin in say two or three years and been surprised at "my how much you've grown!"  Does that mean the kid is "TALL"? Not at all, it just means he is much "bigger" than when I saw him/her last.

From my now years of translating source documents, I have become highly attuned to noticing specific word choices and NOT trying to imply one thing or another.  It is VERY significant to me that the specific word "grande" was used to describe Alexei, yet the same person not twenty words later used the word "haute" for AF.  I am most certain by this reason that we should NOT use the adjective "tall" to describe what the priest meant for Alexei.  I really do conclude that he meant to imply Alexei was a much larger child than he anticipated to see.

There IS a world of difference between a child "bigger" than we remember and a "tall" child.

I would greatly like to know what the Russian Sokolov version uses for this passage, perhaps Belochka is lurking...

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on November 12, 2007, 11:12:09 AM
One of the most important questions which need to be addressed is:   

How  do we know that the bones found in the two pits found this last July were not bones planted by using bones from the mass grave or other sites which held Romanov bones which would carry the same  DNA/mtDNA and  hemophilia traces?


We know the mass grave has been distrubed a number of times.

Example:


>>>....bones removed from the grave in 1979:

I list the  bones removed and replaced in a box by Ryabov and Avdonin in 1979:

  "Found the box with three skulls, sacrum, glass ampoules and viles [human hair and frgments of skin], two lumbar vertebrae, kneecaps, two jaw fragments with teeth, a lower jaw, two loose teeth two vertebra from neck, a right rib bone, two metcarpal bones, a right hipbone, portion of a left shoulder bone,  which had been placed in the pit in 1980 by Ryabov and Avdonin who had returned what they had found and taken out.   The box was taken up and opened."

Were any of the bones from this box used for the DNA testing?  No answer has been given.

How do  we know that all the bones found by  Ryabov and Avdonin were returned to the mass grave in 1980?   

Was Avdonin  part of the discovery team of the two pits found this last July 2007?   If Avdonin was part of this discovery then   this is a  serious question that needs  serious answers  that will satisfy everyone.   

It was apparent that when a cable was placed next to the mass grave that the bones were distrubed.  How do we  know that the bones dug up were not reburied elsewhere?

How many  other times was the grave distrubed and by whom and did they. also,  removed any bones?  What happen to these bones?

What happen to the bones discovered by  Michael Buchannen-Smart in 2006 and 2007?  From what I understand,  they were given to Russian officals.   So,  where are they, now,  and  are they going to be retested/ tested?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on November 12, 2007, 02:05:40 PM
First you need to ask WHY anyone would "plant" the bones from a previous excavation? THEN you need to ask if any of the remains discovered somehow didn't make it to Peter & Paul for the proper burial.

This is about ludicrous a speculation without foundation as I have ever heard from Bear.
 
You better answer the fundemental questions before accusing the Russians of "planting evidence", especially Dr. Avdonin.  You level serious, and defamatory charges against Avdonin with this line of questioning, you had better have some hard evidence to proceed...

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on November 12, 2007, 03:50:18 PM
I see no problem in asking my question.  If  no ones asks then  how will we know that all Avdonin's  "t's"  are crossed and all the "i's"  are dotted.   If I were in his shoes,  I'd expect this kind of question and be prepared to answer.

I assume that the answer, when it comes  from  Avdonin, will be accomplied by   documentation of  witnesses,  photographs,  testimonies etc. etc. which could  be used as evidence that would stand up in our American court. 

Personally,  I know very little about Avdonin.  Perhaps you and others can give us some information about him  and why you and others trust  him and his findings.

And,  please note,  I mention other possible intruders of the mass grave from 1918 to 1979 and the digging of the cable as well as other possibilities.

AGRBear



Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Belochka on November 12, 2007, 08:01:35 PM
... If  no ones asks then  how will we know that all Avdonin's  "t's"  are crossed and all the "i's"  are dotted.   

AGRBear

AGRBear,

Dr Avdonin is associated with the SEARCH Foundation and is a friend of its Director, Peter Sarandinaki whose professional integrity is above reproach.

Kindy cease and desist with your aspersions against Dr Avdonin's reputation. Thank you.

Margarita Nelipa
(SEARCH FOUNDATION)
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on November 12, 2007, 08:07:21 PM
I must agree with Margarita.  Bob has known Dr. Avdonin for almost 20 years now.  It was Avdonin who invited Bob to view the exhumed remains from the mass grave. Dr. Avdonin has been nothing but a consummate professional and seeks nothing but the truth.  Really Bear, you must come up with something more substantial to accuse an accredited, proven professional with such misconduct other than "he should expect this".  Would you accuse the Surgeon General for falsifying reports unless proven true? Would you accuse the President of Cal of falsifying facts until proven otherwise? Come on...
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on November 13, 2007, 09:43:08 AM
I must agree with Margarita.  Bob has known Dr. Avdonin for almost 20 years now.  It was Avdonin who invited Bob to view the exhumed remains from the mass grave. Dr. Avdonin has been nothing but a consummate professional and seeks nothing but the truth.  Really Bear, you must come up with something more substantial to accuse an accredited, proven professional with such misconduct other than "he should expect this".  Would you accuse the Surgeon General for falsifying reports unless proven true? Would you accuse the President of Cal of falsifying facts until proven otherwise? Come on...


Far as I know,  the Surgeon Genera nor the Pres. of  UC Berkeley are NOT involved in the new discovery.  And,  would I ask them the same question,  if they were invovled?   Yes. 

A friend of ours    believed in Nixon, who was then our  President of the USA,  and ended up being accused and convicted of a crime which came to be known to the public  as the Watergate.   I would never had suspected  that he'd become invovled in anything illegal but he did.   His reasoning for his participation  has been interesting to hear. 

Let say,  that  Bob,  Margarita and others   are right about Adonin's  character and that he is not invovled in  any kind of  manipulations of the bones.  Fine.    However,  I'd still like to see the proof  which he should be able to provide.

 Clearing Avdonin, who  is just one of many who came in touch with the mass grave,  doesn't mean the bones Avdonin  found haven't  been planted by someone else.

From what I understand,  the scientists have reported that the ground around the two pits  may be at least  60 years.  That would mean that the pits  could have been dug around the 1940s....  This would be in Stalin's time.

Would Stalin have a reason to order two pits to be dug and  "plant" bones some 60 km from the mass grave?

AGRBear 
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on November 13, 2007, 09:48:58 AM
Bear.


I'm locking this thread as it is becoming more and more ludicrous. These aren't genuine questions, these are fantasy speculations. You are more than free to start a new thread to talk about this lunacy, and this is what this is. but over in Having Fun where all baseless speculation is to happen.

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on November 15, 2007, 04:53:11 PM



Were they found above ground or in the ground?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on November 15, 2007, 05:00:50 PM
Bear, are you alleging that Stalin dropped these coins when he 'replanted' bones from the original grave into the one 60 ft. away back in the 30's-40's? If not what else are you getting at?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on November 15, 2007, 05:06:31 PM
 I  had read  elsewhere that  these  coins were  found in or near the two pits with the bullets.  Accodring to Belochka's  translation of the report she has,  the coins were found near,  about 1 and 1/2  meter which is about 5 feet from the  two pits.  So,  I thought I'd give this information  some notice.

As for Stalin,  I've been told to keep him out of my questions about the two pits.  So,  Annie,  you're going to have to ask that question yourself  in  the "Fun" section.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on November 15, 2007, 06:04:16 PM
It doesn't matter a whit whether they were found on top or at some depth beneath the ground because they were found AWAY from the excavation site.  They were not archaeologically nor forensically speaking "associated" with the remains therefore this is a moot discussion.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Belochka on November 15, 2007, 07:15:22 PM
I  had read  elsewhere that  these  coins were  found in or near the two pits with the bullets.  Accodring to Belochka's  translation of the report she has,  the coins were found near,  about 1 and 1/2  meter which is about 5 feet from the  two pits. 

AGRBear

AGRBear,

There have indeed been rumors concerning the appearance of soviet minted coins. That is precisely why I chose to provide Nikolai Nevolin's response to those allegations.

Have you considered the oddity why so many soviet issue coins have been "dropped" in the vicinity?

Margarita
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 15, 2007, 07:56:00 PM
Wouldn't it be a good idea to wait for the forensic teams to release their results before speculating about Joe Stalin, planted remains and the mysterious appearance of coins? It's interesting that they were there. Beyond that, who knows? I have a hard time with the idea that Stalin sent people to scatter bone parts around Pig's Meadow, and I am pretty sure that AA supporters are not waltzing through the fields tossing coins to muddle the excavation.

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Belochka on November 15, 2007, 08:13:27 PM
... and I am pretty sure that AA supporters are not waltzing through the fields tossing coins to muddle the excavation.


Tossing coins to the wind à la Yermakov ... ?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on November 15, 2007, 08:17:43 PM
The general site of the mass grave, if not the precise location was well known in the early 1920s.  We have seen a 1922 photo of the grave site published in newspapers. Sokolov was not exactly secret about his findings either.   Clearly the general area was not some unknown wilderness and many people were wandering around there for years. Not all with shovels or backhoes, but with curiosity and reverence, or perhaps sadness and shame.  Soviet era coins in the vicinity of the remains are no smoking gun...

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Belochka on November 15, 2007, 08:28:06 PM
The general site of the mass grave, if not the precise location was well known in the early 1920s.  We have seen a 19220 photo of the grave site published in newspapers. Sokolov was not exactly secret about his findings either.   Clearly the general area was not some unknown wilderness and many people were wandering aroudn there for years. Not all with shovels or backhoes, but with curiosity and reverence, or perhaps sadness and shame.  Soviet era coins in the vicinity of the remains are no smoking gun...



Yermakov shamelessly returned with one comrade decades later to gloat and be photographed at the location.

Margarita
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on November 15, 2007, 08:45:51 PM
I  had read  elsewhere that  these  coins were  found in or near the two pits with the bullets.  Accodring to Belochka's  translation of the report she has,  the coins were found near,  about 1 and 1/2  meter which is about 5 feet from the  two pits. 

AGRBear

AGRBear,

There have indeed been rumors concerning the appearance of soviet minted coins. That is precisely why I chose to provide Nikolai Nevolin's response to those allegations.

Have you considered the oddity why so many soviet issue coins have been "dropped" in the vicinity?

Margarita

Yes,  I have considered the  "oddity" of  the  coins just five feet away from the two pits.

I see the number  "13"  is that the actual number of coins found  or just the illustration numbers  for the various coins?

And,  yes,  I'd like to know if they were on the ground or  under ground and the depth if they were under ground.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Belochka on November 16, 2007, 02:46:38 AM
I  had read  elsewhere that  these  coins were  found in or near the two pits with the bullets.  Accodring to Belochka's  translation of the report she has,  the coins were found near,  about 1 and 1/2  meter which is about 5 feet from the  two pits. 

AGRBear

AGRBear,

There have indeed been rumors concerning the appearance of soviet minted coins. That is precisely why I chose to provide Nikolai Nevolin's response to those allegations.

Have you considered the oddity why so many soviet issue coins have been "dropped" in the vicinity?

Margarita


And,  yes,  I'd like to know if they were on the ground or  under ground and the depth if they were under ground.

AGRBear

Why not ask Vadim Viner?  
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on November 16, 2007, 01:31:50 PM

Why not ask Vadim Viner?  

Since I didn't know who Vadim Viner was,  I used the Search tool on this forum to find any information, and found this under "Search Foundation..."  thread  the following post:

...  [in part]...."These latest remains do not have any relation to the Romanovs, just the same as those buried in Petersburg," said Vadim Viner, head of the Sverdlovsk Region Tourist Information Center and a self-styled historian who runs a center that studies the fate of the dynasty.

Viner said he believed that all of the remains were victims of a Stalinist purge in 1946.

"They are 50 years old, not 80," he said in a telephone interview from Yekaterinburg. As proof, he cited DNA tests conducted in Japan and the United States that found no link between the bones interred in St. Petersburg and the Romanov family.

Viner also pointed to a controversy over the body of Grand Duchess Anastasia, said to be reburied in 1998: "Skeleton No. 5 is 171 centimeters tall, but the Grand Duchess measured only 158 centimeters," he said. "So this is not Anastasia."

Alexander Zakatov, a spokesman for the Romanov family in Russia, said Friday that it was too early to make any definite statements on the identities of the remains.


.....[in part]......
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now,  that I know who he is and that you do not think he's  reliable,  why would you ask me to ask  Vadim Viner my question?

My goal was and continues to be:  The  seeking the truth and  I don't care where the answers take me,  I am just enjoying the journey. 

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on November 16, 2007, 04:42:36 PM

My goal was and continues to be:  The  seeking the truth and  I don't care where the answers take me,  I am just enjoying the journey. 

AGRBear

But the problem is that you never accept answers that aren't what you want to find. That's not the real 'truth', is it?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on November 16, 2007, 08:02:38 PM

My goal was and continues to be:  The  seeking the truth and  I don't care where the answers take me,  I am just enjoying the journey. 

AGRBear

What I find more interesting is that Bear NEVER asks questions to tend support the findings, the ONLY questions she asks are those which ATTACK or SUBORN the findings. Can you smell "agenda"??

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on November 17, 2007, 11:14:24 AM

My goal was and continues to be:  The  seeking the truth and  I don't care where the answers take me,  I am just enjoying the journey. 

AGRBear

What I find more interesting is that Bear NEVER asks questions to tend support the findings, the ONLY questions she asks are those which ATTACK or SUBORN the findings. Can you smell "agenda"??




Here is  what my dictionary  defines as  the reasoning behind  all  questions:

---------
>>QUESTION |n|
noun
a sentence worded or expressed so as to elicit information : we hope this leaflet has been helpful in answering your questions.
a doubt about the truth or validity of something : there is no question that America faces the threat of Balkanization.
the raising of a doubt about or objection to something : Edward was the only one she obeyed without question | her loyalty is really beyond question.
a matter forming the basis of a problem requiring resolution : we have kept an eye on the question of political authority.
a matter or concern depending on or involving a specified condition or thing : it was not simply a question of age and hierarchy.
verb [ trans. ]
ask questions of (someone), esp. in an official context : four men were being questioned about the killings | [as n. ] ( questioning) the young lieutenant escorted us to the barracks for questioning.
------

This is the base to my questions about the coins:
a matter forming the basis of a problem requiring resolution

I assume my questions are the same questions being asked by all the people involved with this new discovery.

I'm sure they all agree with  Bear  and Kipling who said:

>>I keep six honest serving-men
(They taught me all lI knew)
Thier names  are What and Why and When
  And How and Where and Who<<

I  have not nor will  I come to any kind of conclusion until  all the facts are presented and the scientists have given us their reports.

AGRBear



Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on November 17, 2007, 11:19:24 AM
Does anyone know  if the coins were found above ground  or  under the ground and if they were under ground  do you know the depth?

AGRBear

PS   I have no other questions at this time.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on November 17, 2007, 12:51:36 PM
Quote
I  have not nor will  I come to any kind of conclusion until  all the facts are presented and the scientists have given us their reports.

AGRBear

When they do, if they conclude that the remains are those of the two Imperial children, will you accept that, or keep 'questioning' for the 'truth?'
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on November 17, 2007, 10:11:22 PM
Annie,

I have already answered your question and there is no need to repeat what you have repeated for me.

Do you have any questions about the coins?

I did have another question which I forgot to restate above:  How many coins were found?  Sorry if this seems obvious to you but I  can't quite tell by the illustration which seems to show 13.

AGRBear

 

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Belochka on November 18, 2007, 07:08:57 PM
Viner was not part of the dedicated Russian 2007 excavation team.

Gospodin Viner's primary mission is to obfuscate this issue.

It is strongly suggested that Bear does not follow his skewed  path, and instead patiently wait for the independent international teams of forensic experts to present their findings next year.

Margarita
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on November 19, 2007, 01:48:52 PM
Viner was not part of the dedicated Russian 2007 excavation team.

Gospodin Viner's primary mission is to obfuscate this issue.

It is strongly suggested that Bear does not follow his skewed  path, and instead patiently wait for the independent international teams of forensic experts to present their findings next year.

Margarita

 You need not have such fears:   I haven't  nor will  I join  anyone who is not seeking the truth.   


AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: J_Kendrick on November 19, 2007, 03:20:49 PM
Viner was not part of the dedicated Russian 2007 excavation team.

Gospodin Viner's primary mission is to obfuscate this issue.

It is strongly suggested that Bear does not follow his skewed  path, and instead patiently wait for the independent international teams of forensic experts to present their findings next year.

Margarita

One and half meters (150 cm) is just four foot eleven inches (4' 11")... not even a single adult body length.... just three inches more than the projected 142 - 143 cm height estimate that was claimed for the putative remains of a male child by Victor Zvyagin on September 28th. 

One and a half meters is no more than four to six inches longer your average straight-handled garden shovel, which certainly places the discovery of these coins at a close enough distance that they could have dropped by the very same person or persons who had dug this alleged second burial pit in the first place.

The only obfuscation that's happening here has been done by those very same investigating authorities who have deliberately chosen *not* to mention the presence of these coins near this alleged second burial pit in their recent statements to the media... critical evidence that clearly post-dates the murders of July 1918 by a considerable number of years.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on November 19, 2007, 03:57:36 PM
or it just means someone dropped the coins in the general area years later...

a cigar is usually just a cigar, unless those with an agenda want to see more in it than is there.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Belochka on November 19, 2007, 04:39:21 PM
Viner was not part of the dedicated Russian 2007 excavation team.

Gospodin Viner's primary mission is to obfuscate this issue.

It is strongly suggested that Bear does not follow his skewed  path, and instead patiently wait for the independent international teams of forensic experts to present their findings next year.

Margarita

The only obfuscation that's happening here has been done by those very same investigating authorities who have deliberately chosen *not* to mention the presence of these coins near this alleged second burial pit in their recent statements to the media... critical evidence that clearly post-dates the murders of July 1918 by a considerable number of years.


Nice try Mr Kendrick. However the only obfuscation is the one deliberately created by those who prefer to grasp at any sinewy straws ... hoping ... just hoping that their own pathetic agendas receive a bit more publicity.

The coins were NOT part of the excavation site findings.

You are in no firm position to assert or presume that there was deliberate concealment of information on the part of the excavation team. If there had been then Nikolai Nevolin, Director of the Sverdlovsk Forensic Medicine Bureau [see http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,10115.30.html] would not have addressed the issue.

Margarita  
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on November 19, 2007, 05:02:16 PM
Archaeology Magazine, Nov. 2007. (http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2007/11/18/news/local/news03.txt )

1800s artifacts arise from ashes of Jocko Lakes fire
The oversized cartridge was lying on ground left black by last summer's Jocko Lakes wildfire.

When Anya Minetz spotted it last month, she could see it was something special.

“Come look at this one,” she called to C. Milo McLeod, who was sifting through the detritus of a modern-day hunter's camp west of Seeley Lake. He came, saw and performed a double-take.
“That's from a Spencer rifle,” McLeod said.

He knew because he owns one of the 1860s-vintage firearms, the world's first practical repeating rifle.

They were a diverse pair - McLeod an archaeologist and manager of the Lolo National Forest's heritage program, Minetz a graduate student at the University of Montana.

She was in the second day of her first fire survey with McLeod. He came to the Lolo in 1975, years before Minetz was born.

Over the next few hours and days, their excitement grew in tandem as they located artifact after artifact lying exposed on the charred ground.

In an area just 70 feet long and 30 feet wide, McLeod and Minetz found:

17 more cartridges, most with casings and rounds intact;

An ax head, rusted but with a discernible inscription - the Douglas Axe Manufacturing Co. of Douglas, Mass., in business from 1836-1897;

A pair of scissors or forceps with a funky, Victorian-style design;

A whetstone;

A bullet mold;

And, their favorite find, a 14-inch buffalo hide scraper.


Perhaps Kendrick might be good enough to contact these archaeologists and inform them that since their first discovery was made while sifting thru the remains of a modern day hunter's camp that it was most certainly the modern day hunters that left all these other 19th century artifacts in the same general spot...I mean, he clearly knows better than the archaeologists working the site themselves...at least that's his position...
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: J_Kendrick on November 19, 2007, 06:58:19 PM


The coins were NOT part of the excavation site findings.


Margarita


Prove it.

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Belochka on November 19, 2007, 08:21:50 PM
Mr Kendrick,

While you conduct your Discovery investigation, please identify whom you accuse and which act(s) you accuse the person(s) of.

Thank you,

Margarita Nelipa
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: J_Kendrick on November 20, 2007, 01:46:28 AM


The coins were NOT part of the excavation site findings.


Margarita


Prove it.

Ah John! The same melody chimes from you again.

When will you learn that you must bare the burden of proof for your assumptions? You accuse then you have to prove it conclusively.

Margarita


Exactly the response I had expected.

You are the one here who is making the claim that the coins are not a part of the excavation findings... and yet you still feel no need at all to provide any sort of proof of your claim?

Why do you imagine for even a moment that you only need to make such a statement... without any supportive evidence... and that everyone should just blindly accept your statement as true?

The length of the average man's stride is 75 centimeters... 0.75 meters or 29.5 inches.  At 150 centimeters or 1.5 meters distance, that very clearly places the location of these coins just two steps away from this second alleged burial pit... and yet you still claim that these coins are not part of the findings.

Just try digging a pit that is five feet long, three feet wide, and two feet deep -- 1.5 meters by 0.9 meters  by 0.60 meters deep -- and then do it successfully without ever taking any more than two steps... 1.5 meters... in any direction.  It simply cannot be done.  No one can dig such a pit without taking less than two steps in any direction, so *anything* that is found within two or three steps of the burial pit is most certainly critical evidence... including those coins.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on November 20, 2007, 09:02:22 AM
Archaeology Magazine, Nov. 2007. (http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2007/11/18/news/local/news03.txt )

1800s artifacts arise from ashes of Jocko Lakes fire
The oversized cartridge was lying on ground left black by last summer's Jocko Lakes wildfire.

When Anya Minetz spotted it last month, she could see it was something special.

“Come look at this one,” she called to C. Milo McLeod, who was sifting through the detritus of a modern-day hunter's camp west of Seeley Lake. He came, saw and performed a double-take.
“That's from a Spencer rifle,” McLeod said.

He knew because he owns one of the 1860s-vintage firearms, the world's first practical repeating rifle.

They were a diverse pair - McLeod an archaeologist and manager of the Lolo National Forest's heritage program, Minetz a graduate student at the University of Montana.

She was in the second day of her first fire survey with McLeod. He came to the Lolo in 1975, years before Minetz was born.

Over the next few hours and days, their excitement grew in tandem as they located artifact after artifact lying exposed on the charred ground.

In an area just 70 feet long and 30 feet wide, McLeod and Minetz found:

17 more cartridges, most with casings and rounds intact;

An ax head, rusted but with a discernible inscription - the Douglas Axe Manufacturing Co. of Douglas, Mass., in business from 1836-1897;

A pair of scissors or forceps with a funky, Victorian-style design;

A whetstone;

A bullet mold;

And, their favorite find, a 14-inch buffalo hide scraper.


Perhaps Kendrick might be good enough to contact these archaeologists and inform them that since their first discovery was made while sifting thru the remains of a modern day hunter's camp that it was most certainly the modern day hunters that left all these other 19th century artifacts in the same general spot...I mean, he clearly knows better than the archaeologists working the site themselves...at least that's his position...

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on November 23, 2007, 11:09:53 AM
This is why it's important in research to make sure all the "i"s  are dotted and all the "t"s are crossed.  But how  do we  know  unless we  ask questions? And, this is one of the reasons I asked where the coins were found.  Were they near the two pits?  Were they on top of the ground or under the ground.  If they were under the ground then how deep were they under the ground?

The various layers of soil of the two pits  have told the scientists,  or at least we're being told by the reporters following this story, that the grave is as old or older than 50  years.

Then up pops the information about the coins found about 5 meters near the newly discovered two pits.  The coin's  were minted after the buriel of  Alexei and GD Maria,  who were reported as having been executed on the night of 16/17 July 1918 in the Ipative House in Ekaterinburg.

So,  it stands to reason that questions should be asked about the coins which may or may not be part of the  story of  the two pits just discovered.

At  this time,  without more information,  how can we know if the coins were accidently dropped by those who planted bones,   or  by those who  had  intruded upon the two pits to determine if they were indeed there, or,  by someone had a hole in his/her pocket back in 1946/7 and they were lost until found in July of 2007?  So,  this is why all the questions should be asked and  why all the answers need to have concret  evidence upon which they are based.   Just making assumptions or claims because a person believes they were planted or because they were accidently dropped proves nothing. What we need are  facts to come to a conclusion based on more rock hard evidence then what we [the public]  knew yesterday.

I do not understand why trying to discover the facts is so volatile when all of us are seeking the same goal,  the truth based on soild and reliable facts.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on November 23, 2007, 12:51:35 PM
BECAUSE:

YOU aren't there. I'm not there. LORD KNOWS Kendrick CERTAINLY won't be there.  GO ASK THE ARCHAELOLOGISTS. They're there. WE all trust their honesty, integrity and academic abilities when they say the coins aren't associated with the remains. WE accept the press releases from them as accurate as reported which SAY they aren't related.

Those of you who don't trust them should go ask them yourselves as nobody BUT they can answer these questions. You can freely post their answers here.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: klava1985 on November 24, 2007, 09:30:27 PM
Bear, doesn't it seem as though there should be a hierarchy of questions? For example, while it does seem that the info about exactly where and at what level the coins were found should be plainly stated, pending the DNA tests of the (relatively) newly discovered remains, that question is more or less moot, right? If the tests show that these are Romanov bodies, it's done. It no longer matters how or when the coins got there. If the tests for whatever reason do NOT show a connection with the Romanovs, then maybe the coins might matter, depending on provenance, etc. So why not just save the smaller questions until the big ones are settled?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 25, 2007, 12:27:21 PM
Bear, doesn't it seem as though there should be a hierarchy of questions? For example, while it does seem that the info about exactly where and at what level the coins were found should be plainly stated, pending the DNA tests of the (relatively) newly discovered remains, that question is more or less moot, right? If the tests show that these are Romanov bodies, it's done. It no longer matters how or when the coins got there. If the tests for whatever reason do NOT show a connection with the Romanovs, then maybe the coins might matter, depending on provenance, etc. So why not just save the smaller questions until the big ones are settled?

Excellent points, but I'm afraid they will be lost on some of the audience here...
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Alixz on November 27, 2007, 09:10:06 AM
While people lose coins and other small items from their pockets all the time, why would someone deliberately (if they were trying to bury bones which are not Romanov bones) leave something as telling as dated coins.

From the direction of this topic, it looks as if some posters want to show that the bones were not buried in 1918 but in Soviet times, by using the coins to date the burial.  I don't see any point to burying bones in Soviet times to throw researchers off the track and then leaving dated evidence behind!  Wouldn't the very thorough Soviets be a little more careful than that?

If the Soviets were burying bones to complete the story of Yurovsky in 1918 and bring the body total up to the right number and then in turn show that no one could have escaped, why in heaven wouldn't they have been less sloppy?

Have there ever been any pre 1918 coins found in the first grave?  No one has said so.  We know that Yurovsky and his men were the worst conspirators in modern history, so why didn't they have holes in their pockets?  I would think it was because they were (even though they were bad at it) trying to leave no clues.

Again, and perhaps more clearly, the Soviets would have to have been idiots to leave any dated materials (coins,etc) near a grave which they had dug to try bury non Romanov bones which they were trying to pass off as Romanov bones just because they wanted history to think that no one had survived.

Therefore, in my humble opinion, the Soviets did not dig a second grave and bury non Romanov bones. Therefore the bones are Romanov and no one escaped the murder room on July 1918.

In the course of 80 to 90 years many many people have walked in Pig's Meadow.  Some looking for Romanov remains and some (probably) locals just picnicking!  I believe that people lose more coins sitting than walking.

But I do know that when I used to do my 3 to 5 mile a day walk (I was much much younger) I used to pick up all the lose change and even paper currency that I saw on the ground.  I put it all in a jar just to see how much it would amount to and it amounted to a lot!  A lot more than 11 or 13 coins or whatever was found near the second burial site.

People in the US are notoriously unconcerned with "small change" so finding pennies and nickles and dimes and even quarters on the street or in a park is not an unusual thing here.  I have even found $1 and $10 bills!  (You just have to keep your eyes on the ground).  But in Soviet era Russia and even in Imperial Russia, I believe that people were much more careful with their currency.  To them, losing even a kopeck, might mean the difference in eating that day or not eating.

Perhaps FA or someone else with a greater knowledge of Russian money could help me or correct me on this, but it seems logical that if people were starving and over-throwing a government to get more rights and a living wage, they weren't about to let what money they had slide out of a hole in their pocket.

Even in Soviet times, the economy was not much better.  Remember hearing about lines at grocery stores waiting to buy toilet paper?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on November 27, 2007, 09:27:50 AM
Alix,

You are correct on many points. Allow me to add a bit more.  First, the burial site was long known, if not to the precise location.  We have seen photos from the early soviet era, where there were wreaths and flowers!  People were long visiting. Also, remember Bob Atchison himself stood within five feet of the very spot of the second remains, and may have stood exactly there. Why this spot? Well, people would stand there for the very same reason Yurovsky chose it in the first place (as we know know).  It is the ONLY higher ground in the area.  The only place dry when the rest is boggy and the only place one can get a few extra feet higher for a better look around.  It only makes sense that people would be standing there. Also, people often leave a small coin or token at grave sites, much like tossing a coin into a fountain.  It makes total sense that Soviet era coins would be found in the area and not be at all associated with the remains.  Imagine going to the Gettysburg battleground, and finding coins from the 1920s or 30s, and then finding a couple of bullets a foot away from the Civil War era...would we immediately say that 20th century people were deliberately planting civil war era artifacts on the Gettysburg field?? of course not...

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 27, 2007, 09:53:23 AM
FA- what an excellent analogy! I can attest to the Gettysburg experience, I grew up there and it was a hobby of sorts to dig in the fields for civil war "stuff".  We always found lots of bullets and bottles, easy to date, but, yes, also coins from many years after-the-fact. Pennies mostly, as I recall, for some reason.
 Alix's post on this subject is the most reasoned and sensible so far. Though, I doubt that it will clear the addled minds of some.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Alixz on November 27, 2007, 10:47:59 AM
FA and Robert,

Thank you very much. 

I didn't think of Gettysburg, but it is one of my favorite places to visit. 

I didn't know about the leaving of coins on graves.  Is it a Russian custom?  I know that it is common to leave small stones on Jewish graves.

Not too far from where I live there is a Jewish cemetery right across the street from a Greek Orthodox cemetery.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on November 27, 2007, 02:11:53 PM
  Imagine going to the Gettysburg battleground, and finding coins from the 1920s or 30s, and then finding a couple of bullets a foot away from the Civil War era...would we immediately say that 20th century people were deliberately planting civil war era artifacts on the Gettysburg field?? of course not...



Believe it or not, I knew a guy once who swore the whole Civil War was a lie made up later by historians and newsmen and since we weren't around back then we'll never know the truth. ???
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Alixz on November 28, 2007, 10:24:05 PM
I just got an email that Bear had posted, but it is not here.  What did she say?
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on November 30, 2007, 11:14:14 AM
...[in part[...

....GO ASK THE ARCHAELOLOGISTS. They're there. WE all trust their honesty, integrity and academic abilities when they say the coins aren't associated with the remains. WE accept the press releases from them as accurate as reported which SAY they aren't related.

Those of you who don't trust them should go ask them yourselves as nobody BUT they can answer these questions. You can freely post their answers here.

You and others on this forum have communications with people who are involved.  If I had any kind of personal contact,  I would be asking them directly,  however,  I don't.  All I can do is comment on posts, which have provided us with   news articles, etc...

My questions have never indicated that I didn't trust the scientists involved.  As I've stated earlier my questions are meant solely to gain as much information that I can though the only means I have which is mainly this forum.

If you go back and look at my first post when I created this thread,  it was to discover where the coins were found.

My posts which followed have been in response to what others have posted.   

Example:

....[in part]....

Also, people often leave a small coin or token at grave sites....

 Bear's response with a question attached:

 I am curious to know the origin of this Russian tradition which you have mentioned.  My family and friends are not familiar with this tradition.   Since Russia has many different kinds of people with different customs, traditions and origins  [Slavs, the Great Russians, Cossacks, Mongolians to Siberian tribes], such a custom could  exist in and around Ekaterinburg, so, I was wondering if you could tell us if  this is a "local" custom?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Scottie on January 01, 2008, 08:39:43 PM
In reviewing the evidence of the grave sites, the coins, in my opinion, should not be entirely disregarded.

As the proximity and number of the coins  (I can only assume that there were at least thirteen of these coins) to the grave site provides for an evidential  inference - that the coins are linked to the grave site. However, it is my belief that  it would be a assumption that the remains of bodies were buried at the same time that the coins were placed or dropped.

In support of this view, there has been some suggestion in previous posts in this topic that there was earlier knowledge of the graves in Soviet Russia, with people leaving wreaths and the like in the area of the grave.

Accordingly, I have done some very brief research in funeral customs in Russia. I refer to a website "Funeral Customs of Caucasian Estonians", which can be found at http://www.folklore.ee/folklore/vol5/mikko.htm. The author makes some reference to a Russian tradition to"  throw copper coins to purchase a place for the dead or to pay the tax for passing the Golden Gates. ".

Is it not possible that someone with earlier knowledge of the graves did just that? Perhaps even a decade or more after the original burials?

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Alixz on January 02, 2008, 09:04:22 AM
Scottie -

What an interesting thought.  That someone might have known of the burial site and in years that passed went to throw the coins on the graves to insure passage through the Golden Gates.

Some of us had only thought that is was accidental.  The coins were Soviet era and that is why some thought that the bodies were not Imperial but Soviet era.

Personally, I think it was accidental and that people just lose money from their pockets sometimes.  Until the official results are in from the forensics experts, I continue to believe that all 11 of the murdered Romanov party have been found.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on January 06, 2008, 10:29:26 AM
I've seen photos of grave searchers with metal detectors walking over all this area in hopes to find the mass grave and when looking for the missing two bodies that were not found in the mass grave.  Some belonged to the offical groups while others were amatures hoping to be part of the "Big Find".   

We have no idea how many people were walking around the meadow, along the roads and in the forrests from July 1918 to July 2007.   

Yet, everyone  missed finding them  until July of 2007.

What were the dates on the coins??

Were they found on top of the ground or under the ground?

AGRBear

 

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: mr_harrison75 on January 06, 2008, 03:23:15 PM
For now, the scientists/archaeologists have found remains that fit the informations about the burial of the two missing Imperial children. They have found bullets, pottery, etc that were also found at the other burial site, dating from the 1918 period of time. They have found coins from the Soviet era. These are facts.

These facts apparently contradicts themselves; on one side, it suggests that the remains found are the ones of Aleksei and Anastasia/Mariya. On the other side, the coins raise a question; are they really the imperial children, or someone elses remains?

Do we know enough to make a conclusion? No, not until we have the DNA tests results. THEN, we can make a correct appraisal of the finds, and find if the coins are relevant to the equation, or not...
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: dmitri on January 06, 2008, 06:18:25 PM
Roll on the results of the DNA tests!!
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on March 19, 2008, 04:27:25 PM
I've been away for quite a few weeks (partly in South America & partly working on my next book - not Romanov related) but the whole site (apart from the we love Royal Familes generally sections) has gone ominously quiet.  I suspect the "news" about the Pigs Meadow "discoveries" last year has driven off the obvious cranks, but even the usual sceptics seem to have disappeared.  At the risk of calling down the usual orthodox wrath, or revealing my own laziness and ineptitude at searching the site for up to date news - has anything real, forensic, testable, verifiable, checkable or at least debateable happened in relation to the "bodies" actually come out since the end of last year?

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on March 19, 2008, 06:42:19 PM
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,10053.0.html

The last pages should bring you up to date Phil.

Rob
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on March 25, 2008, 03:06:20 PM
Many thanks Rob - I hate say it but it was a more entertaining (and possibly interesting) site with the cranks & sceptics.

Phil T
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on March 25, 2008, 04:21:16 PM
Well, that IS true, but on the other hand, the rate at which my hair is turning grey has also slowed considerably. 
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on March 25, 2008, 10:41:13 PM
Phil if you miss the AA cranks that much they are now hanging out at Bear's forum:

http://agrbear.hyperboards.com

I shut my AA forum down and don't know when or if I'll ever open it again. I'm really burned out. The AA fanatics say it's because I can't stand their 'truth' but no, they haven't changed my views one bit, really it's because the dog chasing his tail gets on my nerves. No matter what you say or do,  or how you explain it or counteract it, they still hand you the same worn out, disproven, misleading, shaky old list of shoes and rhetoric. There is an odd handful who will never accept that AA wasn't AN if her ghost came back and told them herself she was a fake. I don't expect the results of the new bones to change a thing. They're probably cooking up their new conspiracy theories now, and Putin seems to be a culprit this time, though you can't count out the Queen's continued influence and financial backing (rolleyes)
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on March 26, 2008, 09:34:29 AM
Annie,

Aside from perhaps gleaning just a small understanding of what I've had to put up with and deal with for the last four years now, take some consolation, as I have, from the words of the MD/PhD who runs Cenetron Diagnostics, the largest DNA testing facility in Texas when I asked him about the subject (I know, I've said it before, it bears repeating):
"Anyone who questions the mtDNA testing and results Gill and the others did simply does not understand the fundamental science of DNA analysis. (long pause) but then, there are also a lot of people who still believe the Earth is flat I suppose."
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on March 26, 2008, 04:32:39 PM
I suspect that part of the conventional problem with the cranks is a failure amongst the Orthodox to acknowledge that conspiracies actually exist (what was Bolshevism before 1917 but an enormous conspiracy?) and the main problem with the conspiracy theorists is that they see conspiracy everywhere, even where common sense and Occam's razor say they're talking nonsense.

I would suggest that Richard Cullen's (and to a small extent my own) work shows that there were conspiracies involved in the fate of the IF and associated characters.  I personally have always veered towards a supprt - in general terms - of the orthodox theories but with a suspicion that there was much more going on in the background than is commonly realised.  At least the cranks occasionally poked at things & raised issues.

I am a member of Bear's site & will have to pop over & see what they're up to now.

Thanks

Phil T
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Annie on March 30, 2008, 01:25:00 PM
Annie,

Aside from perhaps gleaning just a small understanding of what I've had to put up with and deal with for the last four years now, take some consolation, as I have, from the words of the MD/PhD who runs Cenetron Diagnostics, the largest DNA testing facility in Texas when I asked him about the subject (I know, I've said it before, it bears repeating):
"Anyone who questions the mtDNA testing and results Gill and the others did simply does not understand the fundamental science of DNA analysis. (long pause) but then, there are also a lot of people who still believe the Earth is flat I suppose."

I sure do understand, and know yours must have been worse because it's a much larger forum. I did get the far extreme end of the AA fanatics come my way, and because they live in a realm all their own, it's hopeless to discuss rationally with them. Maybe that realm they live on is a flat earth! Sigh.

The scientist is right of course, and it's sad that some just refuse to accept it. Dr. Melton told me this:

As in all fascinating historical mysteries, conspiracy theories will abound. I can address only the lab process.

My response to you is the same that I give to everyone who questions the legitimacy of the Anderson results:

Multiple labs got the same results on different tissues (hair/intestinal tissues) at different times.  Independent testing such as this is best practice in forensic testing, especially when the results are going to be scrutinized at the level of this case.  It is highly unlikely that the same results would be obtained in different labs if the work was shoddy.  More likely, the labs would have gotten different results that made no sense compared to each other.

The science that was used is basic, and the methods, while becoming more sensitive and streamlined since the time of the original tests, were and are designed to get at the most basic building blocks of human identity: the DNA sequence.  The DNA sequence cannot change when the methods change.  There is no more elemental level of inspection.

Conspiracy theories don't worry me.  The weight of well-conceived and time-tested protocols carried out by laboratories with impeccable credentials and nothing to gain from either answer are behind all the results, which have been published in scientific, peer-reviewed literature.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Terry Melton


The conspiracy theorists who really don't know what they're talking about, only wishing, can't decide if the tests were wrong or the intestines were switched. It seems to go back and forth, as desperate as they are to deny reality. As Dr. Melton says the tests are valid today, and if there had been a mistake anywhere, all four labs wouldn't have matched. Even this won't stop the over the top bunch from claiming the intestine wasn't AA's, though they can never give you any proof or even a theory as to why it's not, what it was switched with, when and how. As you've said here before, if they can't do that, they really have no case at all. I'm about to that point too. I don't want to play any more games and listen to their same old lists when we have the proof and they can't refute it.
Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: AGRBear on April 18, 2008, 11:12:31 AM
Phil if you miss the AA cranks that much they are now hanging out at Bear's forum:

http://agrbear.hyperboards.com

I shut my AA forum down and don't know when or if I'll ever open it again. I'm really burned out. The AA fanatics say it's because I can't stand their 'truth' but no, they haven't changed my views one bit, really it's because the dog chasing his tail gets on my nerves. No matter what you say or do,  or how you explain it or counteract it, they still hand you the same worn out, disproven, misleading, shaky old list of shoes and rhetoric. There is an odd handful who will never accept that AA wasn't AN if her ghost came back and told them herself she was a fake. I don't expect the results of the new bones to change a thing. They're probably cooking up their new conspiracy theories now, and Putin seems to be a culprit this time, though you can't count out the Queen's continued influence and financial backing (rolleyes)

I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia but I don't force my opinions on others.  So, of course  there are posters on my forum who continue to believe AA was GD Anastasia.  They are welcome just as you are.   And,  since I do demand acurate facts and sources,  I noticed you didn't stay very long and haven't been posting lately. 

As for the remains found in the two pits this last July,  we are talking about the latest developments.

SPECULATIONS and therories are permitted, also. 

AGRBear

Title: Re: Pig's Meadow - The graves - The evidence
Post by: Forum Admin on April 18, 2008, 06:33:10 PM
No need for sniping on either side.   Dr. Soloviev's report when made public in the next month or two will probably put a rest to any rational discussion...