Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Windsors => Topic started by: RomanovFan on August 05, 2006, 02:45:27 AM

Title: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: RomanovFan on August 05, 2006, 02:45:27 AM
I couldn't find other threads on them, so I figured I'd start one. If someone finds any pictures of Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson from the early 1930s, could you please post them here?

thanks. :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on August 05, 2006, 05:01:45 AM
There were many, many pages devoted to the Duke and Duchess of Windsor - particularly to her 'style' and jewellery - on this thread.   I have no idea where they are now which is rather a pty because not only had a vast amount of work gone into creating them, they were also an invaluable resource.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 05, 2006, 12:02:57 PM
A real pity to loose all those pages about  Eddie & Wallis. There was some really creative and good-natured writing on them. As well as a lot of gorgeous pictures. Perhaps they are just lost in the re-arrangement? But- it was a one-time thing, sort of had to be there I suppose. Like EddieBoy, I too had some fun, but could never come up with those lines again. Just searching the word "wallis" however, does bring up a lot of posts where she is mentioned.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 05, 2006, 12:14:34 PM
I think they became inaccessible when the Forum was changed. When I clicked on the threads it would say something like it couldn't be accessed. Now they have gone all together...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 05, 2006, 12:42:55 PM
They used to be listed but inaccessible but now are just gone. I think the FA indicated once, before the most recent switch, that he could bring up specific parts for people upon request but that the threads themselves are unable to be reposted. Of course, I think that part that I'm referencing was lost in the software crash so am unsure.  :-\ The Windsors section seems to have been hit the worst--there were 30+ pages and now there are less than 10.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on August 05, 2006, 02:29:05 PM
This is certainly a great pity GDElla.   Extraordinary that it was the Windsors which suffered most.   We did have a lot of entertainment while, at the same time we all learned a great deal.   

There was a wealth of information, fabulous photographs and, of course, good hearted banter and fun in those topics.   Martyn along with many others, spent countless hours sourcing , identifying, annotating and posting a kalidescope of beauty.   This is a great loss and one which proves, certainly to me, that you just can't beat a good book.   Apart from not being able to snuggle up with a laptop, one is only likely to fall prey to losing valued material by, unadvisedly, lending a treasured book.   The multitude of threads on the Duke and Duchess of Windsor simply cannot be replaced - EVER or, for that matter, found - anywhere.

I remember with particular relish, the debate about the (dubious) theft of the Duchess's jewels.   Now, there's mystery which endures.

tsaria   
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 05, 2006, 02:34:15 PM


I remember with particular relish, the debate about the (dubious) theft of the Duchess's jewels.   Now, there's mystery which endures.


Very true Tsaria! I recall reading that some of the jewels listed as stolen actually appeared in the auction!!!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on August 08, 2006, 04:07:02 PM
So...are we ready to get into the 'was there duplicity or not' discussion again? 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on August 10, 2006, 04:02:12 AM
That's quite a challenge Emeraldeyes.   I am afraid the fact the a number of people spent a large amount time on research and writing some really interesting and entertaining material only to have it disappear into thin air is a bit of a disinsentive.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: royal_netherlands on August 10, 2006, 09:36:34 AM
Not the Queen Maud wardrobe page to :'(, it's really a pity many valuable information got lost.
And that especially the Windsor thread was hit the hardest :-\, it contained so many beautiful pictures and information.
But I just bought a small paper about the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, it contains some interesting pictures.
I will post them so that’s maybe my small amount to this thread.   :)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/img173.jpg)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/img176.jpg)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/img175.jpg)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/img174.jpg)

RN
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on August 11, 2006, 01:36:56 PM


Thank you for this thread..I missed out seeing the first one.  My favorite couple!

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/0006.jpg)

David and Wallis at St James Palace.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/0007.jpg)

During the Nahlin cruise.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/0005.jpg)

At home in the Bois de Boulogne.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/0009.jpg)

Bois de Boulogne.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/0003.jpg)

At the Mill.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/0002.jpg)

The Duchess in the 1950's.

 ;D ;D ;D I will try to contain myself, and not flood this thread with pics!  ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: RomanovFan on August 11, 2006, 04:25:51 PM
Also known as the Duke of Windsor, 1894-1972. Post photos of David here, from babyhood to his later years with Wallis Simpson.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on August 12, 2006, 02:15:48 AM

RomanovFan, we share a keen interest..thank you for the thread.

I get a sense on this messageboard, and others, that the topic of Edward VIII/Duke of Windsor is something perhaps to be glossed over, mentioned in passing, then "on to the next subject."  Quite understandable, given the circumstances of the abdication. He did forfeit most everything about being royal.   But what other member of the House of Windsor has stirred up so much debate, and interest, than David?  I've often wondered...had he lived out his reign until his death in 1972, with Wallis, Duchess of Windsor/Cornwall/Whatever as his Consort, and them childless, how would the line of succession played out?

Among the members of the royal family in 1972, would Lillibet still have become Queen?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on August 12, 2006, 03:15:00 AM

Today's dose of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor...

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/ed7.jpg)

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/ed8.jpg)
With Daisy and Fred, the de Cabrols

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/ed9.jpg)

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/ed10.jpg)

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on August 12, 2006, 04:12:35 AM
Quote
I've often wondered...had he lived out his reign until his death in 1972, with Wallis, Duchess of Windsor/Cornwall/Whatever as his Consort, and them childless, how would the line of succession played out?

Among the members of the royal family in 1972, would Lillibet still have become Queen?


EII would still have become Queen if Edward had not abdicated, except that it would have been in 1972 instead of 1952.  As Edward and Wallis were childless and his next brother was already dead, then his heir, being Elizabeth, was next in line for the throne.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on August 12, 2006, 04:42:05 AM
The subject of the lives of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor was never 'glossed over' here.   Indeed before the disappearance of three quarters of the Windsor topics, page upon page was devoted to them and, particularly to the Duchess's undoubted and unchallengeable style.   The topics covered all aspects of their lives.   The subject could engender strong feelings - pro and anti.   I found it interesting to observe a distinct difference in attitude between posters from the US and posters from the UK.

I heartily agree the subject of the love and lives of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor is one very well worth pursuing.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 12, 2006, 09:25:03 AM
What I find fascinating about the Wallis is that her style is 100% timeless.  If she showed up today in any of the outfits she was photographed in, she would be be considered on the cutting edge of today's fashions.

Her photos, clothes and jewelry never look dated.


TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 12, 2006, 09:50:47 AM
Yes I agree TB, with the exception of some  of the hats she had a lot of style. I do find some of her jewellery extremely vulgar though. But I suppose that's because if her background? She seemed to hard quite a hard look about her.. :-\
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: RomanovFan on August 12, 2006, 03:53:53 PM


RomanovFan, we share a keen interest..thank you for the thread.
I've often wondered...had he lived out his reign until his death in 1972, with Wallis, Duchess of Windsor/Cornwall/Whatever as his Consort, and them childless, how would the line of succession played out?

Among the members of the royal family in 1972, would Lillibet still have become Queen?

Sure, no problem. I've been looking for different photos of David lately, different ones that aren't posted on worldroots and other well-known sites about royals. To answer your question about the succession, had be stayed king and still not had children with Wallis, I think Bertie would've become king anyway, and so Lilibet would've eventually become queen, yes. Why? Because Lilibet's father Bertie was the second son of George V, therefore if Edward didn't have children, the crown would go to him and his descendants, which is what happenend.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on August 12, 2006, 04:35:43 PM


RomanovFan, we share a keen interest..thank you for the thread.
I've often wondered...had he lived out his reign until his death in 1972, with Wallis, Duchess of Windsor/Cornwall/Whatever as his Consort, and them childless, how would the line of succession played out?

Among the members of the royal family in 1972, would Lillibet still have become Queen?

Sure, no problem. I've been looking for different photos of David lately, different ones that aren't posted on worldroots and other well-known sites about royals. To answer your question about the succession, had be stayed king and still not had children with Wallis, I think Bertie would've become king anyway, and so Lilibet would've eventually become queen, yes. Why? Because Lilibet's father Bertie was the second son of George V, therefore if Edward didn't have children, the crown would go to him and his descendants, which is what happenend.

RomanovFan, Bertie would not have become king if Edward had not abdicated, because Bertie died twenty years before Edward.  Therefore, as I said, Elizabeth would have succeeded Edward in 1972.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 12, 2006, 05:34:27 PM
Besides, I've read that when Bertie and David had the mumps, they both suffered from an inflammation of some kind of the testicles, which rendered David completely unable to have children.  Very sad.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 12, 2006, 05:43:43 PM
Yes, Wallis once said 'the Duke is not heir made'. Well, she might have said that - the source is Kitty Kelly.  :P :P
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 12, 2006, 06:20:01 PM
I believe the exact phrase was that he was not "heir conditioned."  Heh.

Speaking of Wallis, does anyone know how to pronounce the name of one of her favorite designers: Mainbocher?

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on August 13, 2006, 01:15:31 AM
More of the Duke and Duchess...

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/vulgar.jpg)
I don't know jewelry, but even my uneducated determination is..."hideous."

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/vulgar3.jpg)
In the Bahamas.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/vulgar2.jpg)

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/vulgar1.jpg)
I like the Flamingo Brooch.   Stylish.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/vulgar4.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 13, 2006, 07:46:38 AM
From a peron with a bad US Southern Accent:
     
        "mon-bow-shear or shea" 

I have heard both pronuncations form YANKS who speak fluent French.

I once made a fool of myself in Palm Beach and pronounced it:

        "main-bach-er"

 ::) ::) ::) ::)  I just ordered everyone another round of Cocktails and pretended I already had one two many myself!  ::) ::) ::) ::)

TampaBay

NOTE:  Mainbocher was an American expatriate (US Citizen) who went to France and became a Francophile.  He did not come back to the US until WWII.  He relocated his salon to New York City.  He was the most expensive designer of his time until his death.



Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 13, 2006, 08:07:29 AM

Someone needs to post the photo of the sapphie engagement bracelet.  This bracelet is my favorite "Wallis" piece.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on August 13, 2006, 10:07:23 AM
"For our contract 18-v-37" was the inscription on the clasp.   Van Cleef & Arpels.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/bracelet.jpg)

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/brooch.jpg)

The Van Cleef "feathers," given to Wallis,  Christmas 1936.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 13, 2006, 10:24:18 AM
THanks for the picture of the Sapphire Engagement bracelet.

The important thing to keep in mind and remember about Wallis is that she had her clothes custom desinged to display her jewelry instead of purchasing jewelry to match a particular outfit.  The jewelry was the base which explains why in most cases her clothes were simple with clean lines and the jewelry heavy/barbaric. 

99% of the time she "got it" perfect.  Her misses were not disasters just not up to parr for her and her design team/stylers.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 13, 2006, 10:45:01 AM
Damn.  She may not have been the most attractive woman on the planet, but she sure knew how to dress. 

(BTW, how do you pronounce "Mainbocher?")

I actually kinda like that big amethyst and turquoise collar thingy-with a plain silver satin dress?  Yowza!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 13, 2006, 10:48:47 AM
All right-thanks!  I asked in the Duke & Duchess thread too, sorry to be redundant.  


Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 13, 2006, 10:51:26 AM
 From a person with a very bad Southern USA accent:

     "mon-bow-shear or shea" 

I have heard both pronuncations form YANKS who speak fluent French.

I once made a fool of myself in Palm Beach and pronounced it:

        "main-bach-er"

 ::) ::) ::) ::)  I just ordered everyone another round of Cocktails for everyone present and pretended I already had one two many myself!  ::) ::) ::) ::)

TampaBay

NOTE:  Mainbocher was an American expatriate (US Citizen) who went to France and became a Francophile.  He did not come back to the US until WWII.  He relocated his salon to New York City.  He was the most expensive designer of his time until his death.



Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 13, 2006, 10:53:49 AM
Damn.  She may not have been the most attractive woman on the planet, but she sure knew how to dress. 

(BTW, how do you pronounce "Mainbocher?")

I actually kinda like that big amethyst and turquoise collar thingy-with a plain silver satin dress?  Yowza!


Wallis herself once said to interviewer for American Vogue magazine: "I am absolutely nothing to look at so I had no choice but to dress better than everyone else!"

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 13, 2006, 12:00:33 PM
Thanks.  I know I asked in the other thread-perhaps I should have just kept it to the one.

I always think how much David's and Wallis's relationship mirrors that of Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich's with the Countess Brassova. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on August 13, 2006, 01:09:18 PM
From a person with a very bad Southern USA accent:

     "mon-bow-shear or shea" 

I have heard both pronuncations form YANKS who speak fluent French.

I once made a fool of myself in Palm Beach and pronounced it:

        "main-bach-er"

 ::) ::) ::) ::)  I just ordered everyone another round of Cocktails for everyone present and pretended I already had one two many myself!  ::) ::) ::) ::)

TampaBay

NOTE:  Mainbocher was an American expatriate (US Citizen) who went to France and became a Francophile.  He did not come back to the US until WWII.  He relocated his salon to New York City.  He was the most expensive designer of his time until his death.





mayn-bow-shay


Although the Duchess used many designers,  Mainbocher and Dior were perhaps her favourite.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on August 13, 2006, 01:12:52 PM
Thanks.  I know I asked in the other thread-perhaps I should have just kept it to the one.

I always think how much David's and Wallis's relationship mirrors that of Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich's with the Countess Brassova. 


The two relationships were very similar, with the biggest difference being that Wallis believed through marriage she would share her husband's rank.  Natalia had no such illusions.   Wallis imagined herself as Queen.  Natalia knew the title of Grand Duchess would never be her's.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 13, 2006, 01:19:21 PM
Thanks.  I know I asked in the other thread-perhaps I should have just kept it to the one.

I always think how much David's and Wallis's relationship mirrors that of Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich's with the Countess Brassova. 


The two relationships were very similar, with the biggest difference being that Wallis believed through marriage she would share her husband's rank.  Natalia had no such illusions.   Wallis imagined herself as Queen.  Natalia knew the title of Grand Duchess would never be her's.


England and Russia are different as Queen Camilla will prove.  Wallis was rooked.  There was no reason to deprive her of the title HRH.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 13, 2006, 01:44:09 PM
That and in the bio of George VI I'm reading, the family ignored that she was actually a very good influence on the Prince of Wales-she got him to stop drinking and smoking so much, and to behave with a bit more decorum. 

At least they allowed her to be buried beside him. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on August 13, 2006, 02:07:54 PM


At least they allowed her to be buried beside him. 


And don't think that The Queen and Dickie Mountbatten didn't have their hands full with The Queen Mother over that decision. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 13, 2006, 03:35:24 PM
I really don't think Wallis was suitable for an "HRH", far from it in fact. The fact that she was "allegedly" carrying on with a used car salesman at the same time as seeing the Prince, is rather shocking (I remember getting practically lynched for brinigng this up last time). In my opinion I think the way Edward and Walis harped on about Wallis's HRH was almost unhealthy and there treatment of Queen Mary was to much.

I do think the Royals made the right decision in allowing them to be buried together though :)

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on August 13, 2006, 04:17:39 PM
I do think that the whole HRH thing got kind of outta control.  Once the decision had been made, they probably should have just gotten over it.  The way that the DofW kept bringing it up over the course of many years made him seem a little bit ridiculous IMO.  Of course it was a different era and I guess that once you had been a king, it would be kind of difficult to accept that your spouse would always be considered by others to be so below you. 
Being buried together was a good thing for sure, but could the royal family really have gotten away with not allowing it? 

It's hard to believe sometimes how much times have changed since the abdication crisis. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 13, 2006, 04:31:28 PM


At least they allowed her to be buried beside him. 


And don't think that The Queen and Dickie Mountbatten didn't have their hands full with The Queen Mother over that decision. 

I believe Mountbatten was dead by that time-unless they made the arrangements earlier. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on August 13, 2006, 04:48:25 PM
I think the arrangements were finallly agreed to sometime prior to the Duke's death.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 13, 2006, 04:48:57 PM
I really don't think Wallis was suitable for an "HRH", far from it in fact. The fact that she was "allegedly" carrying on with a used car salesman at the same time as seeing the Prince, is rather shocking (I remember getting practically lynched for brinigng this up last time). In my opinion I think the way Edward and Walis harped on about Wallis's HRH was almost unhealthy and there treatment of Queen Mary was to much.

I do think the Royals made the right decision in allowing them to be buried together though :)



 I could be wrong but I believe under British Common Law a woman automatically asuumes the rank and tiltle of the the man she marries.

There is no such thing as morganatic marriage under British Common Law.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Keith on August 13, 2006, 07:02:53 PM
I really don't think Wallis was suitable for an "HRH", far from it in fact. The fact that she was "allegedly" carrying on with a used car salesman at the same time as seeing the Prince, is rather shocking (I remember getting practically lynched for brinigng this up last time). In my opinion I think the way Edward and Walis harped on about Wallis's HRH was almost unhealthy and there treatment of Queen Mary was to much.

I do think the Royals made the right decision in allowing them to be buried together though :)



 I could be wrong but I believe under British Common Law a woman automatically asuumes the rank and tiltle of the the man she marries.

There is no such thing as morganatic marriage under British Common Law.

TampaBay

I believe you are right about that. Wasn't EVIII told when he mentioned having Wallis be called something other than Queen, that there was no such thing as a that. A King's wife is automatically a Queen, so by that reasoning an HRH's wife should automatically be an HRH. As for not being a suitable HRH, if you go by that  resoning due to allegely carrying on with the salesman, most of todays RF woulnd't be HRH.  I don't see anyone making a rush to take away their HRH.

I believe I read in Ralph Martin's bio, that one of the reasons not making Wallis HRH was with her having been married twice before, that the Royal Family didn't want a divorced HRH running around if she and the Duke divorced, as once an HRH always an HRH. If I'm remembering right and this story is true that certainly was forgotten 50-60 years later with the York/Wales divorces.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Keith on August 13, 2006, 07:13:13 PM
Does anyone know what any children they might have had would have been titled, with regard to HRH or Prince/Princess?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on August 13, 2006, 07:19:02 PM
Oy vey, what a can of worms that would have opened up! 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 13, 2006, 07:26:34 PM
Sarah and Diana losy their hrh after divorcing. No married to one anymore, well goes with the marriage. They kept the titles but lost the style.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 13, 2006, 07:40:29 PM
Then why is Camilla not Princess of Wales?  I've heard that she won't be proclaimed Queen, either.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on August 13, 2006, 08:14:28 PM
Does anyone know what any children they might have had would have been titled, with regard to HRH or Prince/Princess?

If I remember reading right, any descendents of David and Wallis would have no title of any kind.   This "errant branch" of the royal family tree was to be pruned off where it split.

There was that rumor that they briefly considered adopting a child, and possibly naming him "David Windsor."  My guess is the feeling behind the thought had little to do with the desire to nurture and raise a child, but probably for other reasons less sincere.   Probably a good thing nothing came of it.  The child would have been raised by nannies, and shipped off early to boarding school.  The dogs were their substitute children, and no doubt satisfied whatever, if any, parental leanings David and Wallis had.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/pugs.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on August 13, 2006, 08:43:12 PM
Then why is Camilla not Princess of Wales?  I've heard that she won't be proclaimed Queen, either.


It was a PR move in the hopes that as Duchess of Cornwall she would be more accepted rather than if she took the title of her very popular predecessor.

And she will definitely be Queen.  Don't believe what the spin doctors might say now.   :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 13, 2006, 10:26:14 PM
Well, Bertie may have succeeded him had things played out differently. Didn't the Queen Mother always blame the stress of being King during WW2 for speeding up her husband's death? It all falls into 'what if'. Despite that, it would've gone from David to Bertie and through him to his children, in this case Elizabeth.

Tsaria's correct--there was tons of information (and photos) on David, Wallis, David & Wallis, the abdication, etc....it's a real shame that the pages are gone since some posters aren't here any longer.  :(  I'm no fan of David (to say the least) but I never liked Wallis much until reading what some posters had to say about her, whereby my perceptions changed somewhat.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 13, 2006, 10:31:23 PM
This was from a US magazine when Wallis was still just one of his 'dancing pals'

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/britain/Picture3075wallis.jpg)
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/britain/Picture3075wallis2.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 13, 2006, 10:39:07 PM
I have to say, I think it's for the best that he DID fall in love with someone unsuitable and abdicated.  He really didn't seem like he was up to the job.  I've even read that he never really wanted to be King even before he met Wallis.

Sadly, though, as good a King as he was, the strain on Bertie was just too much. 


Either way, I do think it was better of the Duke to abdicate and marry the woman he loved rather than stay on the throne, marry some trophy Queen and have Wallis as his mistress. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 13, 2006, 10:46:11 PM
Yeah, but didn't Bertie die of lung cancer?  Stress may have weakened him, but I don't believe it gives you cancer!

Either way I don't think he would have been such a great King even without meeting Wallis.  I have to give him credit for marrying her rather than just staying on the throne and keeping her as his mistress. 

BTW, what WERE his feelings on Hitler?  I know he met with him, but you can't tell me he was a total Nazi, especially after the war and the revelation of the Holocaust and all.



Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on August 14, 2006, 01:01:22 AM

BTW, what WERE his feelings on Hitler?  I know he met with him, but you can't tell me he was a total Nazi, especially after the war and the revelation of the Holocaust and all.


David was no Nazi...I don't think he gave thought much about Hitler either.   What pleased him most during the 1937 visit to Germany, and meeting the Fuerher, was the attention lavished upon Wallis.   The Nazi's showered attention on both of them, something England refused to do, and in this respect, I think David was grateful.    Both he and Wallis thought most of Hitler's men to be coarse and vulgar, with the exception perhaps of Herman Goering.  From a PR point of view, the trip was a disaster.  In David's mind...Wallis was feted and honored in the manner he thought she should have been.

Unrelated to all this was the sad truth that David was an Anti-Semite.  At a dinner party, he once remarked regarding a court case that a particular woman was being defended by "some k*ke lawyer" whereupon Wallis promptly kicked him under the table.

He had his faults, like all of us do, but the allegations of Nazi collaboration are fairly unfounded.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on August 14, 2006, 03:59:21 AM
As Prince of Wales, David was adored by the British people who regarded him as a 'man of the people'.

Being a 'good' Prince of Wales, is one thing.   Being a good King is altogether another.   The one does not necessarily follow the other.   They are two very different roles.

tsaria   
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on August 14, 2006, 04:12:34 AM
King George VI had lung cancer because he smoked over 60 cigarettes a day.   In those days the link between cigarette smoking and lung cancer had not yet been made.     

I agree with Grandduchessella - before the vast amount of detail and work put into the lives and style Duke and Duchess of Windsor, on threads here, I gave them little thought - apart from viewing him as pathetic and her as brash.   I certainly learned a great deal from those posts.   Now I still see the Duke as 'pathetic' and the Duchess as brash but with truly remarkable schutzpah and style.

Cunarder, I love your posts and the wonderful photographs, but I have to take issue with you re the Duke of Windsor and Hitler.   They went so far as to hatch a plot that, when Hitler successfully invaded Great Britain, Hitler would re-instal the Duke of Windsor on the throne, making Wallis Queen Consort and the Duke, his puppet.   I do not call that a man of integrity - the Duke of Windsor, I mean!

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on August 14, 2006, 04:43:16 AM
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/pugs.jpg)
What a sweet miniature, Cunarder!  It's a bit comical too, isn't it?   ;D   Did it belong to the Windsors? 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 14, 2006, 06:23:27 AM

Now I still see the Duke as 'pathetic' and the Duchess as brash but with truly remarkable schutzpah and style.

tsaria

The Duchess of Windsor was nowhere near as smart and intelligent as she would need to be to do some of the things she has been accused of.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on August 14, 2006, 09:35:08 AM
Cunarder, I love your posts and the wonderful photographs, but I have to take issue with you re the Duke of Windsor and Hitler.   They went so far as to hatch a plot that, when Hitler successfully invaded Great Britain, Hitler would re-instal the Duke of Windsor on the throne, making Wallis Queen Consort and the Duke, his puppet.   I do not call that a man of integrity - the Duke of Windsor, I mean!

tsaria

Tsaria, I know of the "plot" you mention, as something that was possibly dangled in front of the Duke and Duchess like a carrot, but I doubt either of them thought of it as an legitimate option.  They were unimpressed by the regime, and personally repulsed by most of Hitler's men as individuals.  There have been many men with greater integrity, but I would imagine even he realised that a puppet reign under Hitler was too great a price to pay to see Wallis as Queen.   I prefer to write the episode off as a fleeting thought he entertained for a moment.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on August 14, 2006, 09:58:17 AM

What a sweet miniature, Cunarder!  It's a bit comical too, isn't it?   ;D   Did it belong to the Windsors? 

Grace, yes it did..one among countless others commissioned by the Duke & Duchess.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/pug4.jpg)

The bottom two portraits are of "Trooper" and "Impy."

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/pug5.jpg)

In the early years marriage, cairn terriers were the breed of choice.  This photo from the 1950's shows one of the last terriers.  The first, "Slipper" was given to Wallis before their marriage, and was present at their wedding at the Chateau de Cande.  Not long afterwards, it was killed by a poisonous snake, and plunged both of them into days of grief.  Wallis lamented "now the principle guest at our wedding is no more!"   In the later years, the pugs became favorite.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/pug1.jpg) 

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 14, 2006, 12:34:45 PM
As Prince of Wales, David was adored by the British people who regarded him as a 'man of the people'.

Being a 'good' Prince of Wales, is one thing.   Being a good King is altogether another.   The one does not necessarily follow the other.   They are two very different roles.

tsaria   

Very true.  Which is why when so many complain about Charles and how he's unfit to rule, I always point out that we don't know that necessarily.  Edward VII was another one many were unsure of-and he turned out pretty well.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Keith on August 14, 2006, 05:37:11 PM
Does anyone know what any children they might have had would have been titled, with regard to HRH or Prince/Princess?

If I remember reading right, any descendents of David and Wallis would have no title of any kind.   This "errant branch" of the royal family tree was to be pruned off where it split.

Thank you. I wasn't sure if they might have been considered Lord or Lady.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on August 14, 2006, 07:00:53 PM
This was from a US magazine when Wallis was still just one of his 'dancing pals'



Hahahaha!!  The article states that "Edwina Ashley" was a former flame of Edward VIII when he was P of W.  Too hilarious.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 14, 2006, 07:10:52 PM
What is even more hilarious is calling Wallis "beauteous". Even she said she was "nothing to look at".
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 14, 2006, 08:31:17 PM
Yes...but she had more to offer in personality. Her sponatonous humour and confident attitude was a big plus for the men of Windsor (think of the Women: Queen Mother,Duchess of Windsor and now the Duchess of Cornwall). Looks did not matter much here... :(
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 14, 2006, 08:45:22 PM
I agree with all you say, Eric. But "beauteous" is a bit much. Wallis probably had a laugh over that!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 14, 2006, 08:58:08 PM
True, very true.  Although many would kill for her sense of style-she had wonderful taste in clothing.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 14, 2006, 09:05:26 PM

BTW, what WERE his feelings on Hitler?  I know he met with him, but you can't tell me he was a total Nazi, especially after the war and the revelation of the Holocaust and all.


David was no Nazi...I don't think he gave thought much about Hitler either.   What pleased him most during the 1937 visit to Germany, and meeting the Fuerher, was the attention lavished upon Wallis.   The Nazi's showered attention on both of them, something England refused to do, and in this respect, I think David was grateful.    Both he and Wallis thought most of Hitler's men to be coarse and vulgar, with the exception perhaps of Herman Goering.  From a PR point of view, the trip was a disaster.  In David's mind...Wallis was feted and honored in the manner he thought she should have been.

Unrelated to all this was the sad truth that David was an Anti-Semite.  At a dinner party, he once remarked regarding a court case that a particular woman was being defended by "some k*ke lawyer" whereupon Wallis promptly kicked him under the table.

He had his faults, like all of us do, but the allegations of Nazi collaboration are fairly unfounded.


That's good to know.  And good for Wallis!  I'd've kicked him too!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on August 14, 2006, 09:43:27 PM
Interestingly, last evening I was just watching a program on the History Channel about QEQM, and there was some interesting footage of David and Wallis, I think it may have been from the Nahlin cruise...anyway, it's interesting how the 'moving picture' i.e. video gives quite a different aspect to Wallis' looks.  She looked far less harsh than in many of the familiar photographs, and very full of a certain élan of spirit.  Joie de vivre?  Je ne sais quoi?  Who knows - but she certainly seemed charismatic. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 14, 2006, 10:43:31 PM
Yes...Wallis was a very attractive woman in turns of personality and wild humour (The same thing Prince Charles said about Camilla "You'll like her when you got to know her."). So I tell all the plain Jane's here, if you wanna grab a Windsor man, don't waste time to be beauty parlour, develope your own personality and confidence in yourself. They seem to find these attractive... ;D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 15, 2006, 12:14:37 AM
Well, Charles, unlike his great-uncle, is certainly no looker himself...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 15, 2006, 12:30:53 AM
Yet...Both Princes felt misunderstood and unappreciated by their families (Chares fared better of the two). They needed strong women by their side to operate (Wallis and Camilla fulfilled that role perfectly). While lookers like Diana (a needy person herself did not fit the profile).  ::)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on August 15, 2006, 01:32:24 AM
This was from a US magazine when Wallis was still just one of his 'dancing pals'



Hahahaha!!  The article states that "Edwina Ashley" was a former flame of Edward VIII when he was P of W.  Too hilarious.

Indeed, but I still think "American-born special dancing pal" tops it.  Talk about coy!  Still, we are talking 1930's here... ;D 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on August 15, 2006, 04:44:46 AM
Is that based on supposition, Cunarder?

I had the impression plans were fully discussed both by the major players and the putative court.   One can see the mutal advantages, but, thank God, plans such as those were never implemented.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 15, 2006, 05:19:52 AM
Yes...Wallis was a very attractive woman in turns of personality and wild humour (The same thing Prince Charles said about Camilla "You'll like her when you got to know her."). So I tell all the plain Jane's here, if you wanna grab a Windsor man, don't waste time to be beauty parlour, develope your own personality and confidence in yourself. They seem to find these attractive... ;D

This was also very true of Edward VII.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: royal_netherlands on August 15, 2006, 06:46:21 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/Royals%20past%20and%20present/img196.jpg)

RN
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2006, 06:49:11 AM
Interestingly, last evening I was just watching a program on the History Channel about QEQM, and there was some interesting footage of David and Wallis, I think it may have been from the Nahlin cruise...anyway, it's interesting how the 'moving picture' i.e. video gives quite a different aspect to Wallis' looks.  She looked far less harsh than in many of the familiar photographs, and very full of a certain élan of spirit.  Joie de vivre?  Je ne sais quoi?  Who knows - but she certainly seemed charismatic. 

Probably the same kind of indefinable 'something' that Anne Boleyn had - a sort of ability to charm and captivate without being beautiful.

It's true that all of George V's sons married strong, confident, assertive women . . . coincidence?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on August 15, 2006, 11:32:52 AM
Is that based on supposition, Cunarder?

I had the impression plans were fully discussed both by the major players and the putative court.   One can see the mutal advantages, but, thank God, plans such as those were never implemented.

tsaria

I admit to the supposition, Tsaria.  As you stated, we can be thankful that we never had to learn to what extent, if any,  David & Wallis would have collaborated with the Nazi regime.  I think alot of what is attributed to them regarding the plot is supposition itself, which over time has thought to have been fact. At it's simplest, guilt by association.  But I choose to focus on the fact that David didn't not want to be a king at all, even under Nazi rule.   I think at some point in the constitutional crisis over his marrying Wallis, he realized he had the perfect excuse for abdicating.   And did so.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 15, 2006, 07:09:29 PM
Is that based on supposition, Cunarder?

I had the impression plans were fully discussed both by the major players and the putative court.   One can see the mutal advantages, but, thank God, plans such as those were never implemented.

tsaria

I admit to the supposition, Tsaria.  As you stated, we can be thankful that we never had to learn to what extent, if any,  David & Wallis would have collaborated with the Nazi regime.  I think alot of what is attributed to them regarding the plot is supposition itself, which over time has thought to have been fact. At it's simplest, guilt by association.  But I choose to focus on the fact that David didn't not want to be a king at all, even under Nazi rule.   I think at some point in the constitutional crisis over his marrying Wallis, he realized he had the perfect excuse for abdicating.   And did so.

THE TRUTH, Neither one of them were that smart.  Everything just happened and their style over substance in all matters took over!!!

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 15, 2006, 08:40:01 PM
In the other thread, I mentioned the similarity of Wallis and Edward to his cousin, Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich, and HIS morganatic wife, Countess Brassova.  Someone pointed out that, unlike Wallis, Natasha had no illusions that she'd be a Grand Duchess, or what have you.  Well, not only that, but Misha likewise knew that as well, and never asked for it-all he wanted was for him and Natasha to be allowed to be together in peace.  In fact, they didn't even set out to get married officially, until everyone kept harassing him about it, so he figured, screw it.  Might as well go the whole nine yards.

BTW, do serious scholars give any credit to the theory that the Duchess suffered from androgen insensitivity syndrome? 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 15, 2006, 08:57:37 PM
I don't know how seriously it's taken, though several websites on the syndrome claim that she did.

However, a lot of the talk by critics of her was so directed because she wasn't 'womanly' and was meant to demean and insult her, rather than express any real sympathy over the condition. As regards looks, hers actually play against her having AIS. Researchers stated that those with AIS "tend to be exceptionally beautiful with above average height (for a woman), long well proportioned legs, generous breasts, flashing smiles, exceptionally clear skin and luxuriantly thick scalp hair" are "often voluptuously feminine" and posesses a "very attractive female physique". 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 15, 2006, 10:36:09 PM
Aaaah, well, that makes sense then.  I always thought the comments were a bit mean-spirited.  Wikipedia said it came from some doctor who saw some of her X-rays-I don't think you could tell from THAT.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 15, 2006, 11:16:06 PM
Question-is Edward's abdication broadcast available to listen to, maybe even on line? 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 15, 2006, 11:19:39 PM
I listened to it here:

http://www.earthstation1.com/King_Edward_VIII.html
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 16, 2006, 03:35:41 AM
He has a weak voice... :(
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on August 16, 2006, 03:57:30 AM
He was a 'weak' man.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on August 16, 2006, 06:36:39 PM
I've just finished watching the television series "Edward and Mrs. Simpson" starring Edward Fox and Cynthia Harris.  It was interesting viewing.  Although it was only a dramatization, I found myself becoming more and more irritated at the characters of David and Wallis.  They were both portrayed as lying and scheming and more so after Edward VIII  became King.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 16, 2006, 08:14:02 PM
I think that series was based heavily on Frances Donaldson's book on Edward VIII. It was critized by the pro-Windsor camp as being inaccurate and nasty. One friend wrote that " Cynthia Harris was all wrong for the part (for trying to play Wallis as a" Southern Belle"), Wallis was hard ! ". It would be similar if the Charles/Diana/ Camilia story was played only on Diana's point of view. So I don't give that series much credence. Just entertainment darling !  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 16, 2006, 08:46:30 PM
From what I've read, he suffered from an inflamation of the testicles when he and his brother had the mumps-which was one of the reasons why he never fathered any children.  Basically, it's been said that he hardly ever had to shave, and he had very little body hair.  I'm guessing that might also account for the rather high, weak voice.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 16, 2006, 11:05:45 PM
Although he is rumoured to have fathered a few bastards (with his married women friends). Some of them did look like him. Also Wallis never had children too.  ???
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 17, 2006, 03:25:57 AM
I don't believe Wallis used to be a man though. Such a ridiculous rumour  ;D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 17, 2006, 03:41:50 AM
Hahahaha...She was a tough-as-nails dame though !  ;D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on August 17, 2006, 06:40:57 AM
Perhaps they simply chose not to have children.   They were pretty much wrapped up in each other and their somewhat hedonistic lifestyle.    Cairns and pugs are not nearly so demanding as little human beings.   From this distance I cannot see a place for children in their lives.   However, perhaps their lifestyles developed in that fashion due to their lack of offspring.l   

A variety of issues could have conspired against their mutual infertility.   It cannot be denied Wallis, prior to meeting the Prince of Wales - even subsequent to this  - lived what can best be termed a 'colourful' social life.   Physical problems such as PID and chlamydia - diseases unknown or rather lumped under a rather unfortunate global diagnosis, would not have been either recognised or treated.   These are very likely causes for infertility.   Of course there could have been other reasons.   It is all rather academic now.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on August 17, 2006, 07:41:06 AM
I don't believe Wallis used to be a man though. Such a ridiculous rumour  ;D

Lord, now I've heard it all!  Thanks for this, Eddieboy!  :D

I seriously doubt that David would have wanted children -- I don't think he'd want to share Wallis with anyone, not even their children.  That's the way I think he was.  Did Wallis mention in her book "The Heart Has Its Reasons" that she regretted not having children?  I seem to remember this but I may be wrong.  I shall have to have a look...   
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on August 17, 2006, 10:12:52 AM
I don't believe Wallis used to be a man though. Such a ridiculous rumour  ;D

A Vanity Fair article from two or three years ago stated that she  likely suffered from androgen insensitivity syndrome. 

http://www.geneclinics.org/profiles/androgen/details.html
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 17, 2006, 10:28:28 AM
I don't believe Wallis used to be a man though. Such a ridiculous rumour  ;D

It wasn't that she "used to be a man", so much as they claim she had "androgen insensitivity syndrome", or testicular feminization.  It means someone is born looking female, but has an XY chromosome. 

And you know what though?  Even if she DID have it-which I highly doubt-she was a woman.  She identified as a woman, and that's all that matters-anything else would be her own damned business.

Now then, I'd like to bring up the topic about Wallis's jewelry.  Apparently, someone started a rumor that David had inherited a box of uncut emeralds from Queen Alexandra-that had been a wedding gift to her from the people of Denmark.  The emeralds were supposed to be for the future Queens of England, but David took them and gave them to Wallis. 

It wasn't true, of course-Alexandra had many fine jewels, but never a box of uncut emeralds.  What's more, she never left a will.  Now, I'm wondering if perhaps someone mixed up the incident about the Cambridge emeralds-basically, Queen Mary's grandparents won a box of forty cabochon emeralds in a charity raffle, and handed down in the family.  Then, her brother Frank, a ne'er do well, gave some of them to his mistress, and after his death, Mary had to go and ask for them back.  Perhaps the story got twisted into one about Wallis Simpson?

The Cambridge emeralds, I believe, are all accounted for, and make up a large part of the crown jewels today. 

BTW, does anyone have a picture of that one necklace that belonged to the Duchess, that was white enamel set with green and red stones?  IIRC, it looked like someone poured a blob of Creamy Italian around her neck.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on August 17, 2006, 10:35:03 AM
There's this one, but it's a gold bib necklace, not white enamel.  Please tell me there is not another similar monstrosity lurking around...

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/bib2.jpg)

I always thought it was so appropriate to call this a bib necklace, as I remarked in another thread, it looks to me like ketchup drips and parsley flakes.

But I guess it was 'groovy' back in the day!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 17, 2006, 10:46:46 AM
Yuck, even uglier than I remembered.

Thanks.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on August 17, 2006, 10:49:36 AM
Another more modern piece, however, I really like this one.

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/sabewal.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 17, 2006, 10:56:40 AM

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/bib2.jpg)


Good lord! What a specimen! ;D What about the one with the strawberrys hanging of it!!!!  ::)
 ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on August 17, 2006, 10:59:47 AM
Do you mean the amethyst and turquoise piece??

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/bib1.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 17, 2006, 11:15:36 AM
No, Wallis wore it to the side and had to strawberrys (I think) hanging of it. Quite a chunky peace I recall.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on August 17, 2006, 11:17:38 AM
Used to be a necklace...now a pin?

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/broochgoldenballs.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 17, 2006, 11:20:40 AM
Oh yes, that's interesting, doesn't look to bad their. Thanks EE. I saw a picture of Wallis wearing it in The Menkes book I believe.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 17, 2006, 02:03:20 PM
Do you mean the amethyst and turquoise piece??

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/bib1.jpg)

That's my favorite!  I love the colors together.  And the big stone at the bottom reminds me of the necklace from the movie Titanic.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on August 17, 2006, 02:26:05 PM
That's your favourite of all Wallis' jewels?  Or just your favourite of the few that have been posted so far?

Although I love most of her stuff, I would have to say my favourite are those two luscious strands of pearls - one had an immense pendant -  and the matching white and black pearl earrings.  I will post a pic later.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 17, 2006, 04:36:32 PM
Do you mean the amethyst and turquoise piece??

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/bib1.jpg)

I sort of like this one a lot--and I'm not a fan of much of Wallis's jewelry (too modernish for me, I'm an old stick-in-the-mud) and I don't like turquoises much either. Still, I like the design and the amethysts (which are amongst my favorite) are gorgeous.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 17, 2006, 05:55:28 PM
That's your favourite of all Wallis' jewels?  Or just your favourite of the few that have been posted so far?

Although I love most of her stuff, I would have to say my favourite are those two luscious strands of pearls - one had an immense pendant -  and the matching white and black pearl earrings.  I will post a pic later.



Well, my favorite of the ones I've seen so far.  I love the colors together. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 17, 2006, 06:12:17 PM
My favorite??


The sapphire and diamond engagement bracelet!!!   :o :o :o


TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on August 17, 2006, 07:44:25 PM
Here are those pearls...

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/Wallispearls.jpg)
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/Wallispearls2.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 17, 2006, 08:59:35 PM
Didn't Queen Mary leave them to the Duke in her will, as sort of a gesture of forgiveness, or something like that?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on August 17, 2006, 09:07:43 PM
That is thought to be the case, however, I've never been sure which one of those it was. 

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on August 17, 2006, 09:52:22 PM
This one's for you Tampa!

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/duchesswindsor.jpg)


This one's for you Eddieboy!  (sorry it's not in colour...)

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/wallisoddnecklace.jpg)


I don't know who this one is for...not entirely happy with the scan, but oh well...

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/wallisrubies.jpg)


This one's for me.  Although not my fave piece of emerald jewellery - the design is a bit humdrum IMO - but the stones really are amazing, and the diamond part of the necklace sort of reminds me of the Teck circle, so that's enough to make me happy!

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/wallisemeralds.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on August 17, 2006, 09:53:34 PM
Quote

It wasn't that she "used to be a man", so much as they claim she had "androgen insensitivity syndrome", or testicular feminization.  It means someone is born looking female, but has an XY chromosome. 

And you know what though?  Even if she DID have it-which I highly doubt-she was a woman.  She identified as a woman, and that's all that matters-anything else would be her own damned business.

Again, Guinastasia -- do you have any solid evidence for this, or is it just your own personal opinion? 

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 17, 2006, 10:25:49 PM
Quote

It wasn't that she "used to be a man", so much as they claim she had "androgen insensitivity syndrome", or testicular feminization.  It means someone is born looking female, but has an XY chromosome. 

And you know what though?  Even if she DID have it-which I highly doubt-she was a woman.  She identified as a woman, and that's all that matters-anything else would be her own damned business.

Again, Guinastasia -- do you have any solid evidence for this, or is it just your own personal opinion? 




Solid evidence for what?  That AIS actually exists?  Indeed it does.  That there were nasty rumors about her being intersexed and what not?  Face it, that is fact-there WERE such rumors.  Now, I personally do not believe them.  HOWEVER, my point is, even IF (note the IF) they were, in fact, true, would that really matter?  Would it be anyone else's business?  No.  And it wouldn't be grounds for treating her as some kind of freak. 
As far as the public should be concerned, Wallis was a woman, whether or not she had some kind of disorder (which I don't believe she did). 

I simply wondered what the opinion of serious scholars was. 

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 17, 2006, 10:59:38 PM
That thesis was postulated in a rather controversial bio of her a few years back. I can't remember the name or the author, but it was published. It might have been the same book that said that they might have been Nazi spies ? I have several books on the Windsors, but not that one.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 17, 2006, 11:21:24 PM
Didn't Queen Mary leave them to the Duke in her will, as sort of a gesture of forgiveness, or something like that?

I'm not sure if this is the set or not but, yes, she did leave a pearl necklace to David to give to Wallis.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 17, 2006, 11:41:51 PM
There was a story, I think in one of the many biographies, that said she was pregnant in her first marriage. Her husband, who was abusive, beat her hard enough to cause a miscarriage which left her infertile.

Though, of course, there's the 'secret daughter' that David & Wallis were forced to give away in 1934. She even has a website. http://we3.org/   :o ::)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 18, 2006, 12:42:56 AM
She was a woman period ... >:(

Exactly my point-thank you.

grandduchessella, I read that somewhere too-that her first husband caused her to miscarry and injured her badly enough that she couldn't conceive again.  How sad.  I know it's definitely a fact that he was abusive. 

Secret daughter-ha!  That's almost as good as the website of Anthony Goralski-remember him?  The supposed illegitimate grandson of Nicholas by an affair that the Tsar had with an illegitimate half-sister.  Or the claims that Nicky and Alix had a fifth daughter who was stolen away.

I love nutjob websites!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on August 18, 2006, 01:24:07 AM
Didn't Queen Mary leave them to the Duke in her will, as sort of a gesture of forgiveness, or something like that?

I'm not sure if this is the set or not but, yes, she did leave a pearl necklace to David to give to Wallis.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/fools1.jpg)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/fools2.jpg)
This might be the necklace.  But I have to wonder...what satisfaction could Wallis have had, wearing it?   Pearls are pearls, just seems a bit wierd to wear the jewels of someone who refused to see you.   

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/fools.jpg)

Speaking of illegitimate progeny, this photo nonsense purports to be David's son by a certain Vera Seely, of 1934.  From the book "King of Fools" by John Parker.   I have no proof, but I dismissed the book as just another Kitty Kelley-type smear rag in search of a cheap buck.   
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 18, 2006, 02:37:17 AM
No, the funniest bit about that website is the picture section when they compare Queen Mary to a teenage boy!! Hilarious  ;D ;D ;D

Also check out "Elizabeths grandson (Johns first son)" in 1996 being compared to Prince Albert. To funny.  ;D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 18, 2006, 02:39:45 AM
No...For Wallis it must be somewhat satisfied to wear your mother-in-law's (How do you do) present. Leave it up to Queen Mary to present a peace offering in jewels (it was known that it is hard to get anything out of that old dragon). Anyway David must be mollified by this olive branch from his estranged family.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 18, 2006, 02:51:50 AM
(it was known that it is hard to get anything out of that old dragon).

How so? Reference please Eric.

I don't think thats true, she was very generous with presents. Look at the recent auction of Princess Margarets belongings, quite a few lots had been presents from Queen Mary, including that lovely fan.

And Queen Mary was very generous when the QEII married. Maybe someone would like to list the presents she received from her generous Grandmother?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 18, 2006, 02:59:30 AM
The fact that Queen Mary was known more as a pretator of goods than a giver of one. She was very generous to Elisabeth because she was the future Queen. The Queen Mum did not recieve as much from her mother-in-law was clearly evident. One must not forget that after buyind Czarina Marie's jewels, she did not pay Olga her share for many years (causing the poor woman to think that she was cheated of her inheitance). The present queen had to foot out the money to pay her grandmother's debt. That is how generous Queen mary was.  :(
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on August 18, 2006, 03:47:34 AM
Quote

It wasn't that she "used to be a man", so much as they claim she had "androgen insensitivity syndrome", or testicular feminization.  It means someone is born looking female, but has an XY chromosome. 

And you know what though?  Even if she DID have it-which I highly doubt-she was a woman.  She identified as a woman, and that's all that matters-anything else would be her own damned business.

Again, Guinastasia -- do you have any solid evidence for this, or is it just your own personal opinion? 




Solid evidence for what?  That AIS actually exists?  Indeed it does.  That there were nasty rumors about her being intersexed and what not?  Face it, that is fact-there WERE such rumors.  Now, I personally do not believe them.  HOWEVER, my point is, even IF (note the IF) they were, in fact, true, would that really matter?  Would it be anyone else's business?  No.  And it wouldn't be grounds for treating her as some kind of freak. 
As far as the public should be concerned, Wallis was a woman, whether or not she had some kind of disorder (which I don't believe she did). 

I simply wondered what the opinion of serious scholars was.


I'm sorry, Guinastasia, I meant no offence.  I was not querying whether the medical condition you mentioned exists or not.  It's just that in quite a few books I've read on the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, I have never seen the stories you quote about David definitely being infertile and the one about Wallis having a chromosomal abnormality.  I am simply wondering whether these oddball stories should be repeated without a quoted source, that's all.     

Also, I don't see how the "serious scholars" here (whoever they may be!) would be able to provide any sort of opinion on health problems the Windsors may or may not have had without being able to examine genuine medical records pertaining to the couple.     


Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 18, 2006, 11:18:30 AM
Well, as far as the Duke is concerned, Wallis herself said he was infertile, and most people noted that he had very little body hair, AND the incidence of the mumps when he was going through puberty.

The rumors about Wallis, I think, were just repeated out of malice.

And I didn't mean scholars here-I just meant what various bios have said.


Anyways, here are some more attractive pictures of the Duchess.  While some of them might be retouched, I don't think the earlier ones are.  She looks almost like Queen Astrid of Belgium in one of them.  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/th_astridsweden1905-17.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/astridsweden1905-17.jpg)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/th_U791911INP.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/U791911INP.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/th_HU005189.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/HU005189.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/th_HU005190.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/HU005190.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/th_HU005193.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/HU005193.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/th_HU005203.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/HU005203.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/th_HU005153.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/HU005153.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 18, 2006, 11:31:15 AM
The fact that Queen Mary was known more as a pretator of goods than a giver of one. She was very generous to Elisabeth because she was the future Queen. The Queen Mum did not recieve as much from her mother-in-law was clearly evident. One must not forget that after buyind Czarina Marie's jewels, she did not pay Olga her share for many years (causing the poor woman to think that she was cheated of her inheitance). The present queen had to foot out the money to pay her grandmother's debt. That is how generous Queen mary was.  :(

She gave large quantities of jewels to all her daughters-in-law. I don't have the Queen Mother's wedding issue, but the Gloucesters and Kent received many as wedding gifts--including such items as the Cambridge sapphires (Kents) and the turquoise sets that QM received from her own parents. There were numerous brooches and necklaces as well.

I suggest you read Lost Fortune of the Tsars--using actual records, rather than speculation, it puts to rest the rumors of the Empresses sale AND the confusion regarding Olga's inheritance.  >:(
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 18, 2006, 11:31:34 AM
The book mentioning Wallis' androgny syndrom is by Michael Bloch- The Duchess of Windsor. One of his 6 books about them ! I do have it after all, forgot all about it for some reason.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 18, 2006, 11:39:15 AM
I'd also like to state, for the record, that when I brought this up, I meant absolutely no insult either to the late Duchess, or to those who have AIS or some form of gender ambiguity. Some of the nicest people I know are transgendered, and I have the utmost respect for them.

I was simply curious as to what the general opinion was-whether or not there was actual evidence for the Duchess being AIS or if it was just gossip.

Now then, on to something completely different-I know the family did NOT want her to be an HRH, but could they have compromised and made her a Serene Highness, or even just plain Highness? 

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 18, 2006, 11:41:52 AM


Now then, on to something completely different-I know the family did NOT want her to be an HRH, but could they have compromised and made her a Serene Highness, or even just plain Highness? 



Wallis and David would probably have seen this as a slap in the face.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 18, 2006, 12:12:09 PM

I suggest you read Lost Fortune of the Tsars--using actual records, rather than speculation, it puts to rest the rumors of the Empresses sale AND the confusion regarding Olga's inheritance.  >:(

Exactly!! and a good book it it too, sadly I lost mine on a train :(
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 18, 2006, 12:22:13 PM


Now then, on to something completely different-I know the family did NOT want her to be an HRH, but could they have compromised and made her a Serene Highness, or even just plain Highness? 



Wallis and David would probably have seen this as a slap in the face.

That's a shame-they should have been more willing to compromise.  Especially after David failed to mention to the King and his ministers about his assets when they were working out his pension.

BTW, the emerald and turquoise necklace-where is it located-which museum has it, I mean?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 18, 2006, 12:26:17 PM
Serene Highness is not a British style I believe. It is generally used for a reigning prince [& consort]
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 18, 2006, 12:53:09 PM
Ah.  Well, is there such a thing as plain "Highness" then? 

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 18, 2006, 01:16:36 PM
There was - it was used pre-1917 for great-grandchildren of monarchs in the male line. It doesn't exist in England any more though.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Keith on August 18, 2006, 02:12:35 PM
Didn't it exist in 1937? Weren't the former Schleswig sisters styled HH Princess Helena Victoria and Marie Louise. Not that I think David would have been happy with anything less than HRH for Wallis.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 18, 2006, 02:45:21 PM
Wasn't an exemption made for them since they were the last of their line in England and thus there wasn't any problems with passing on titles and rank? I think QV raised Christian in rank (like she did Henry Battenberg) when they married.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 18, 2006, 02:50:35 PM
I would have made the exception for Wallis too, just to shut them up. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Keith on August 18, 2006, 03:25:38 PM
Wasn't an exemption made for them since they were the last of their line in England and thus there wasn't any problems with passing on titles and rank? I think QV raised Christian in rank (like she did Henry Battenberg) when they married.

I'm not sure. QV did raise Christian and Henry Battenbergs rank when they married. I always thought that entitled their children to be HRH, but I've seen them refered to as HH, even before 1917. I've never totally understood that whole thing. I don't understand why they couldn't just all have dropped the names and been HH Prince or Princess, and the next generation in the male line Lord/Lady or titleless. But, I'm getting off topic.

Even if HH had been an option, I can't see the Royal Family even allowing Wallis that. I'm surprised she was even allowed to be Her Grace.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: RomanovFan on August 18, 2006, 04:13:29 PM


RomanovFan, we share a keen interest..thank you for the thread.
I've often wondered...had he lived out his reign until his death in 1972, with Wallis, Duchess of Windsor/Cornwall/Whatever as his Consort, and them childless, how would the line of succession played out?

Among the members of the royal family in 1972, would Lillibet still have become Queen?

Sure, no problem. I've been looking for different photos of David lately, different ones that aren't posted on worldroots and other well-known sites about royals. To answer your question about the succession, had be stayed king and still not had children with Wallis, I think Bertie would've become king anyway, and so Lilibet would've eventually become queen, yes. Why? Because Lilibet's father Bertie was the second son of George V, therefore if Edward didn't have children, the crown would go to him and his descendants, which is what happenend.

RomanovFan, Bertie would not have become king if Edward had not abdicated, because Bertie died twenty years before Edward.  Therefore, as I said, Elizabeth would have succeeded Edward in 1972.

Okay...now I'm confused lol
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 18, 2006, 05:08:29 PM
Does anyone know why the Queen Mother was so against Wallis--I mean it went on unabated for decades and was really quite petty in many ways. I can understand in the beginning--the anger, the shock, the betrayal that, quite frankly, almost the entire Royal family was united in--but there has to be something further there. Even if they hadn't wanted to upset Queen Mary, she died almost 20 years before David did.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 18, 2006, 05:10:29 PM
They were saying that, if all the lifespans had continued on as they did, regardless of anything else, then Bertie still would have died 20 years before his brother so the succession would've bypassed him and gone straight to David's niece, Elizabeth. It's the same as what happened with Queen Victoria--she succeeded her uncle, Wiliam IV, because her father, the Duke of Kent, was already deceased.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 18, 2006, 05:56:01 PM
I think she blamed her for the Duke abdicating and putting all of the stress of ruling on her husband-she really believed that it was the stress that killed him. 

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 18, 2006, 05:58:16 PM
Quote
I'm not sure. QV did raise Christian and Henry Battenbergs rank when they married. I always thought that entitled their children to be HRH, but I've seen them refered to as HH, even before 1917. I've never totally understood that whole thing. I don't understand why they couldn't just all have dropped the names and been HH Prince or Princess, and the next generation in the male line Lord/Lady or titleless. But, I'm getting off topic.

QV raised Christian and Liko as a sort of special favour, an exception. It wasn't a rank they could pass on to their children. She made Thora and Marie-Louise 'Highness' in England, though outside England they were considered 'Serene Highness'.

Quote
Does anyone know why the Queen Mother was so against Wallis--I mean it went on unabated for decades and was really quite petty in many ways. I can understand in the beginning--the anger, the shock, the betrayal that, quite frankly, almost the entire Royal family was united in--but there has to be something further there. Even if they hadn't wanted to upset Queen Mary, she died almost 20 years before David did.

Well, as Guinastasia said she blamed Wallis and David for George VI's early death - when someone in the 40s or 50s gushed to her about how good Wallis was for David, since he didn't have lines under his eyes anymore, she snapped 'yes, and who has lines on his face now?' Wallis also continually disprespected her. In 1967, when a plaque in honour of the centenary of Queen Mary's birth was being unveiled, Wallis curtsied to EII, but not to the Queen Mother, even though ever other woman present did.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 18, 2006, 05:59:41 PM
Yes, that's all true. She was pretty vindictive even before that though and it seemed really personal long before.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 18, 2006, 06:02:15 PM
Maybe they just rubbed each other the wrong way. It happens!  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 18, 2006, 06:08:47 PM
Neither one of them was truly innocent in the whole feud-they both contributed to it. 

Both of them were very strong, independent, out-spoken women.  They were bound to clash.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on August 18, 2006, 06:54:08 PM
Didn't it exist in 1937? Weren't the former Schleswig sisters styled HH Princess Helena Victoria and Marie Louise. Not that I think David would have been happy with anything less than HRH for Wallis.


Author Michael Thornton stated in his book "Royal Feud" that during consideration of a morganatic marriage between Wallis and Edward VIII, Wallis would take the title of Her Highness, The Duchess of Lancaster as Duke of Lancaster is a lesser title of the monarch.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 18, 2006, 07:06:38 PM
Shades of the Duchess of Cornwall today. You have to wonder what would've happened had David been stubborn and defiant enough to just go ahead and marry her. I know there were threats about the Cabinet resigning and problems with the Commonwealth nations. If there were problems brought up in modern times about Charles being divorced (though he now has the status of a widower) and Camilla being divorced and still being the Defender of the Faith, imagine the reaction back in the 1930s. Could anything really have been done to stop him if he'd found a minister to marry them?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on August 18, 2006, 07:51:10 PM
Shades of the Duchess of Cornwall today. You have to wonder what would've happened had David been stubborn and defiant enough to just go ahead and marry her. I know there were threats about the Cabinet resigning and problems with the Commonwealth nations. If there were problems brought up in modern times about Charles being divorced (though he now has the status of a widower) and Camilla being divorced and still being the Defender of the Faith, imagine the reaction back in the 1930s. Could anything really have been done to stop him if he'd found a minister to marry them?

Perhaps that is where the inspiration for the title of "Duchess of Cornwall" originated?

If one turned back the clock to 1935-36, a Duchess of Cornwall would have been no more acceptable than a Duchess of Lancaster.  But, it's not the mid 1930s.  In a more laissez-faire world the majority of the public don't really give a damn about the character of a Royal or that they live up to some higher standard of behaviour than the rest of the masses.  All that matters today is that a Royal personage smile and wave at the appropriate times and that they say the right words whether they are sincere in them or not. Image is all and substance is nothing.

We all know that in the past Royalty as a whole has never conducted themselves as people would like them to or like to believe.  Way back when, it was just much easier to keep dirty little secrets hidden away.   ;D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 18, 2006, 08:08:26 PM
The difference here is that when [anf if] Charles becomes king, he is no longer Duke of Cornwall. William is. Camilla could be, I guess Duchess of Lancaster.   With Wallis, Edward was already king, so the Cornwall title was no longer his. It belongs to the heir, not the sovereign.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 18, 2006, 08:31:16 PM
Yes, I realize that. I was just referring to giving a wife/consort a title separate to the one lwhich she would otherwise be automatically entitled to. In Camilla's case, Princess of Wales and in Wallis's, Queen.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 18, 2006, 09:19:07 PM
I think we all know that technically, Camilla is princess of Wales and will technically be queen consort [no matter what she is called] whether we like it or not.
 Reminds me  of George IV- he hated his wife Caroline [I think the feeling was mutual] yet despite his concerted efforts, she WAS Queen Consort, whether he liked it or not.
 I guess if Edward VIII had married Wallis, despite the very strong objections from almost every corner, she would be in the same position. Although the government would undoubetly have fallen, the Church  probably refuse to crown him and presenting a very real endangerment to the monarchy occur, leading even to possible abolishment. My thoughts and quite hypothetical of course.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 18, 2006, 09:52:09 PM
I think which is why that legally speaking Wallis should be HRH Duchess of Windsor. The withholding of that was illegal and could have won by the Windsors had they took it to court. They were right to feel that the Royal Family was petty against them.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 18, 2006, 09:54:39 PM
Although the government would undoubetly have fallen, the Church  probably refuse to crown him and presenting a very real endangerment to the monarchy occur, leading even to possible abolishment. My thoughts and quite hypothetical of course.

Putting the monarchy in such a position after GV & QM had spent so many years bringing it through war, revolutions, social upheaval, political unrest, economic depression, Socialist & Labour governments, with its popularity intact, even strengthened--I could see where that would irritate your family somewhat.  ::)

I can't remember it word-for-word, but there was that letter that QM wrote to him saying that while her feelings as his mother were unchanged, she couldn't understand how he could've done what he did to the country--that the British people, sacrificing so much during WW1, should be able to expect as much personal sacrifice from their monarch. It was a moving letter. I wish I could find it again--I can't remember which book(s) it was in.  :-\
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 18, 2006, 09:56:34 PM
I think which is why that legally speaking Wallis should be HRH Duchess of Windsor. The withholding of that was illegal and could have won by the Windsors had they took it to court. They were right to feel that the Royal Family was petty against them.  ;)

I don't know about that--perhaps Marlene will be around soon and can answer to it.

Here's a bit of an article--found on wikipedia so keep that in mind:

"However, letters patent dated 27 May 1937, which re-conferred upon the Duke of Windsor the "title, style, or attribute of Royal Highness," specifically stated that "his wife and descendants, if any, shall not hold said title or attribute." Some British ministers advised that Edward had no need of it being conferred because he had not lost it, and further that Mrs Simpson would automatically obtain the rank of wife of a prince with the style HRH; others maintained that he had lost all royal rank and should no longer carry any royal title or style as an abdicated King. However, George VI insisted that Edward should specifically be re-conferred with the rank of prince so that its terms could be within his control and on the grounds that if Edward were to be a commoner there could be no objection to his standing for Parliament. The King's decision to create Edward a royal duke ipso facto put him in the House of Lords and further ensured that he could not stand for election to the House of Commons, or speak about political subjects in the House of Lords.

The Duke of Windsor married Mrs. Simpson, who had changed her name by deed poll to Wallis Warfield, in a private ceremony on 3 June 1937 at Chateau de Candé, Monts, France. When the Church of England refused to sanction the union, a Yorkshire clergyman, the Rev'd Robert Jardine, offered to perform the full church ceremony, and the duke happily accepted his services. The new king, George VI, absolutely forbade members of the British royal family to attend — Edward had particularly wanted Princes Henry and George (the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent) and Lord Louis Mountbatten to be on hand — and this continued for many years to rankle with the now ducal couple notwithstanding the obvious awkwardnesses involved should royalty have been on hand.

The denial of the style "HRH" to the Duchess of Windsor caused conflict, as did the financial settlement - the government declined to include the Duke or the Duchess on the Civil List and the Duke's allowance was paid personally by the King; the Duke, however, had compromised his position with the King by concealing the extent of his financial worth (accumulated from the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall paid to him as Prince of Wales and ordinarily at the disposal of an incoming king) at the time they informally entered into an agreement as to the amount of the sinecure the King would pay. This led to strained relations between the Duke of Windsor and the rest of the royal family for decades: in the early days of George VI's reign the Duke telephoned daily, importuning for money and urging that the Duchess be granted the style of HRH, until the harassed King ordered that the calls not be put through. The Duke had assumed that he would settle in Britain after a year or two of exile in France. However, King George VI (with the support of his mother Queen Mary and his wife Queen Elizabeth) threatened to cut off his allowance if he returned to Britain without an invitation. The new King and Queen were also forced to pay Edward for Sandringham House and Balmoral Castle. These properties were Edward's personal property, inherited from his father, King George V on his death, and thus did not automatically pass to George VI on abdication."
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 18, 2006, 10:06:00 PM
I think the royal family fired the first shot in denying the HRH to Wallis ( a real damper for the Duke). The Duke did have a few strings to pull on the settlement of his property and income and milked it to his own benefit. That was the start of the famous "Windsor Feud". I think if the Royal Family could have reined in the couple to a situation to co-operate, much of the bitterness could have been prevented. As it did, the Duke become "a loose cannon" and did threaten the monarchy (the big picture) following the abdication into WW II.  :(
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 18, 2006, 11:28:20 PM
Eric, you should remember that the soveriegn is the Font of All Honour. The Sovereign is the legality in these matters.  They were powerless to go to court over the matter even if they wanted to. You cannot sue the Sovereign. No court would even accept such a case and it would just make absolute fools of them. Make them look incredibly petty.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 19, 2006, 01:15:54 AM
They denied her the HRH because they were loathe to include her as a member of the Royal family and have people curtsey to her.

In retrospect, I think they would have been better off to just bite the bullet and grant her the style, because it could have avoided so many problems and heartache.  I would have offered to allow it in exchange for David to stop poor-mouthing and trying to weasel more money out of his brother when he was already pretty damned well-off. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 19, 2006, 01:22:15 AM
Sounds like blackmail.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on August 19, 2006, 03:00:14 AM
It is a constitutional monarchy, Robert.   The royal family exists just as long as they have the will of the people.   While the debate as to whether Wallis Simpson be granted the title 'HRH', was debated within the family, in the long run, it was about what the citizens of the country could find tolerable.   The royal family has a great knack of knowing just how far it can drop in public esteem before the very institution would be either damaged or destroyed.    (The weeks following the death of Diana,  Princess of Wales proved that).     

One in every three marriages today's UK ends in divorce.   In the 1930s, divorce was considered a scandal and a shame on the family concerned.    Wallis Simpson was not once but twice divorced.   

The Church of England has relaxed a number of its laws.   This does not include the remarriage of divorcees.   In very recent times they have 'relented' and some priests will 'bless' a second marriage.  As for the sacrament of marriage - it cannot happen twice while one or both of the original participants in that marriage are still alive.   (There is an appropriate parallel, but I will not draw it here.)   In the 1930s this situation would have been absolutely impossible.   Hence there would have been a national crisis if the Sovereign and Temporal Leader of the Church of England and endeavoured to marry in the church.   It just could not and would not have happened.

I would not curtsey to Wallis Simpson were she alive today.   Mark you, the only member of the royal family to whom I would, indeed I have, curtsied, is HM the Queen.

tsaria 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Keith on August 19, 2006, 05:27:37 AM
Quote
I'm not sure. QV did raise Christian and Henry Battenbergs rank when they married. I always thought that entitled their children to be HRH, but I've seen them refered to as HH, even before 1917. I've never totally understood that whole thing. I don't understand why they couldn't just all have dropped the names and been HH Prince or Princess, and the next generation in the male line Lord/Lady or titleless. But, I'm getting off topic.

QV raised Christian and Liko as a sort of special favour, an exception. It wasn't a rank they could pass on to their children. She made Thora and Marie-Louise 'Highness' in England, though outside England they were considered 'Serene Highness'.

Quote
Does anyone know why the Queen Mother was so against Wallis--I mean it went on unabated for decades and was really quite petty in many ways. I can understand in the beginning--the anger, the shock, the betrayal that, quite frankly, almost the entire Royal family was united in--but there has to be something further there. Even if they hadn't wanted to upset Queen Mary, she died almost 20 years before David did.

Well, as Guinastasia said she blamed Wallis and David for George VI's early death - when someone in the 40s or 50s gushed to her about how good Wallis was for David, since he didn't have lines under his eyes anymore, she snapped 'yes, and who has lines on his face now?' Wallis also continually disprespected her. In 1967, when a plaque in honour of the centenary of Queen Mary's birth was being unveiled, Wallis curtsied to EII, but not to the Queen Mother, even though ever other woman present did.

Thanks Prince for clarifying the HH status.

I think there were things by all sides that could have been handled better. QM wasn't exactly respectful towards the Duchess, so hopefully 31 years later she really wasn't foolish enough to think the Duchess was going to curtsey to her.  Isn't there a story that as the QM was leaving the unvieling, and said to the Windsors, something along the lines of I hope we met again. Wallis replied When? Don't know if it's true, but I love that story.

I know the Church of England is against divorce, but I always hear in regards to Wallis, that she was twice divorced with both husbands living
. Does anyone know if it would have made any sort of difference if both husbands had been deceased, but Wallis still divorced from them? I"ve always found it odd that it's mentioned that both husbands were living as I just assumed she still would have been looked upon as a divorcee.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 19, 2006, 07:13:33 AM
In theory, the church does not recognize divorce so if you ex-husband is dead you are a widow.

Charles is not viewed as a divorcee by the church.  He is a widower.  Camilla is a divorcee.


TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 19, 2006, 11:38:48 AM
As for Wallis's first husband, in that case, he was abusive.  I don't think anyone should begrudge her a divorce there.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 19, 2006, 11:47:12 AM
I agree that they should have given her the HRH and be done with that however. I think there was a kind of jealousy of the popularity enjoyed by Edward VIII (fely by the new soverigns), and as George VI just accended the throne, it would be bad to have two seperate courts in England. Also there was great dislike of Wallis shared between Queen Elisabeth (Queen Mum) and Queen Mary, and it would be fair to say that they had a hand in denying Wallis her HRH. I agree had they done so, a lot of heartache and headache could have been prevented.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 19, 2006, 11:48:09 AM
I wouldn't have thought witholding the HRH was illegal, since the monarch is the 'fount of all honours'.  ???
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 19, 2006, 11:49:06 AM
Eric, you should remember that the soveriegn is the Font of All Honour. The Sovereign is the legality in these matters.  They were powerless to go to court over the matter even if they wanted to. You cannot sue the Sovereign. No court would even accept such a case and it would just make absolute fools of them. Make them look incredibly petty.

Sorry Robert, I hadn't read this when I made my above post!  :-[ I agree with you completely.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 19, 2006, 11:56:43 AM
Yes however the not granting the HRH is breaching the code. As Queen Victoria had said "The is nothing of this nonsense here (morganetic marriage), if the King of England marries a village girl, she became as much a queen as any princess !". The truth is that by marrying the Duke of Windsor, Wallis should be granted HRH automatically. That fact that she wasn't and not being allowed to curtsy upon was a petty act. The Duke was justifiable angry, and set off the motion of ill will between the two sides.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 19, 2006, 12:04:34 PM
Frankly, I think the Duke was a little delusional to think that Wallis would ever be acceptable to either his family or his subjects - did he and Wallis just assume that as King he could do whatever he liked??
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 19, 2006, 12:13:47 PM
Sounds like blackmail.

Perhaps.  I just think it could have prevented a lot of strife and heartache in the years to come.

Question-the whole thing about the heir or monarch needing to marry a virgin-is that really true?  Or is it just someone who has no scandal attached to him or her? 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 19, 2006, 12:16:07 PM
I don't think it was ever an official rule, just a tradition, to marry a girl with no 'past'.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 19, 2006, 12:25:02 PM
And boy, did that tradition go out the window !  Witness Sarah Ferguson. Also Sophie lived with Edward for some time before marrying him. I suppose that would be a "past with the one you marry"?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 19, 2006, 12:28:15 PM
Well by the 1980s you'd be hard pressed to find a girl of marriagable age who didn't have a past.  ;D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 19, 2006, 12:30:23 PM
So true, unless one raided a convent, like in the olden days.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on August 19, 2006, 12:58:23 PM
Yes however the not granting the HRH is breaching the code. As Queen Victoria had said "The is nothing of this nonsense here (morganetic marriage), if the King of England marries a village girl, she became as much a queen as any princess !". The truth is that by marrying the Duke of Windsor, Wallis should be granted HRH automatically. That fact that she wasn't and not being allowed to curtsy upon was a petty act. The Duke was justifiable angry, and set off the motion of ill will between the two sides.

Well, David was no longer King when he married and therefore subject to his brother's declarations.

And Queen Victoria was a hypocrite.  Her Uncle Sussex married the daughter of an earl and she was denied both Royal Highness AND Duchess of Sussex.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 19, 2006, 01:01:20 PM
Yes but I thought he married her before Victoria's accession. Victoria granted her the title of Duchess of Inverness.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on August 19, 2006, 02:43:26 PM
Yes but I thought he married her before Victoria's accession. Victoria granted her the title of Duchess of Inverness.

That is correct.  They did marry before Victoria became queen.  But, once she became queen, she could have created her aunt a Royal Highness and Duchess of Sussex.  She did have the power to do so.   ;D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Keith on August 19, 2006, 03:17:02 PM
In theory, the church does not recognize divorce so if you ex-husband is dead you are a widow.

Charles is not viewed as a divorcee by the church.  He is a widower.  Camilla is a divorcee.


TampaBay

Thanks TampaBay. I didn't realize that. It now makes sense.

Does anyone think if the husbands had been dead, would things have been different, or still would have ended the same with the abdication. I get the feeling no matter what, Wallis was just considered not acceptable.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 19, 2006, 03:39:28 PM
Yes but I thought he married her before Victoria's accession. Victoria granted her the title of Duchess of Inverness.

She became a Duchess in HER OWN RIGHt.,  Not a bad deal when you think about it.

If Sussex had become King then the Duchess of Inverness would automatically become Queen Consort with HRH and everything else too.

Camilla is the current Princess of Wales no matter what she chooses to call herself.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 19, 2006, 03:50:36 PM
Besides being twice divorced being an American was strike 3.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 19, 2006, 11:19:19 PM
Besides being twice divorced being an American was strike 3.

The way Sarah Bradford explains it in her bio of George VI is that the upper class didn't care about her divorces, but they did care about her being an American, and that the lower class didn't give two hoots that she was an American, but they DID care that she had been divorced-and more than once.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 20, 2006, 06:28:19 AM
In her book "Royal Marriages" Lady Colin Campbell states that Wallis was considered "pushy" and did not develop the British quality of "derferance" as did other Americans who became wives of the British Aristocracy.

Wallis had the very American trait of favoring "money and accomplishment" over "hereditary class status".

For all practical and discussion purposes there is no "hereditary class status" to hamper any type of acheivement or success in the USA in comparsion to the UK especially England.

IMO Wallis never wanted to be Queen or the Duchess of Windsor.  All she wanted was the top tier good life.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 20, 2006, 06:32:00 AM


For all practical and discussion purposes there is no "hereditary class status" to hamper any type of acheivement or success in the USA in comparsion to the UK especially England.


But haven't all the US presidents come from rich backgrounds?  ::)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 20, 2006, 06:59:30 AM
NO!  Certainly not herediary wealth such as:

Bill Clinton
Ronald Regan
Gearld Ford
Richard Nixon
Lyndon B. Johnson
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Harry Truman

All of the above were self made and/or not indpendently wealthy.

President with Independent inherited wealth:

Jimmy Carter
George Bush (41)
George Bush (43)
John F. Kennedy
Franklin Roosevelt
Herbert Hoover (made is own money but but parents were upper-upper-upper middle class)

TampaBay

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on August 20, 2006, 07:34:29 AM
Is it because Wallis Simpson was American that Americans appear to be so enthusiastic about her and feel she was ill-done-by when she was not made an HRH?   I detect a distinct US/UK divide here.

I grant she had superb style and, as I wrote earlier, real schutzpah.   But this, versus her civil position and 'fast' way of life, would have done little to endear her either to members of the royal family or to the population of 1930s Britain.

We cannot compare the morees of today with those of the 1930s.   If a 'Wallis Simpson' was to enter the life of Prince William or Prince Harry, I doubt there would be much more than a whimper.    Although the Press would have a field day.

In my opinion the HRH is quite an irrelevancy.   Its revelance has been totally eroded by the way it was used in the cases of late Diana, Princess of Wales and of Sarah, Duchess of York.   Is this something which can be given and then taken away because two young women experience the sadness of the failures of the respective marriages?   As we all know, there are two sides to both these stories.   So the person born royal remains an HRH irrespective of his/her behaviour.   This makes the very notion of 'His/Her Royal Highness', a title of deference, rather a nonsense.   

However, I am looking it from a perspective of the year 2006.   70 years ago, it was very, very different.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 20, 2006, 11:13:15 AM
I would say I am more of an Anglophile than a flag-waving American [I did not even have a US flag until the last World Cup- whereas I am more likely to fly the Union Jack  & St George for just about any occasion], but I do not care much for Wallis. She was certainly interesting, but I have no particular admiration for her.
 As for US presidents, Abraham Lincoln, one of our greatest presidents, came from a rather humble background.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 20, 2006, 08:19:30 PM
True...Although years later Marina did host a lucheon for the Windsors when they came to England for the unveiling of the mounument to Queen Mary. It was also the first time Wallis and cookie met again.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on August 20, 2006, 08:40:59 PM
True...Although years later Marina did host a lucheon for the Windsors when they came to England for the unveiling of the mounument to Queen Mary. It was also the first time Wallis and cookie met again.  ;)

Ahhh... to be a fly on the wall, er, the memorial plaque.    :D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 20, 2006, 09:27:57 PM
I think the term "frosty" was used to describe that paritcular meeting.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 20, 2006, 09:46:56 PM
It's been stated that Marina didn't have a very good opinion of Wallis and was rather disdainful of her other sisters-in-law, Alice and Elizabeth, as well.

Well, I'm a pretty flag-waving American  ;) but I never did care much for the Wallis/David romance. I think I'm too much of a traditionalist (aka stick-in-the-mud).

The large number of our Presidents haven't been from the wealthier classes. They certainly were in the beginning but then the 'up from your bootstraps' tended to take hold. Andrew Jackson (#7) was the first poor President--though Monroe's father wasn't well off in terms of cash. Many raised themselves up politically, like Jackson, through military service. Millard Fillmore (elected 1850) was born in poverty and this started a run of more humbly-born Presidents for about 50 years until Benjamin Harrison--grandson of a President. This inaugurated  a period of politically connected Presidents--sons and grandsons of Presidents, Congressmen, Cabinet members, etc...interspersed with middle-class beginnings--sons of ministers and small business  owners. All in all, probably only about 1/4 of the Presidents have been born to wealth and/or connection. Thus ends our very brief overview of US Presidents and their background.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 20, 2006, 09:53:21 PM
Nonsense ! Olga (Princess Paul of Yugoslavia) and Paul were part of the circle that David and Wallis before the abdication crisis. Marina certainly knew Wallis socially (but I don't think they are chums). After the abdication Marina was "advised" by both her mother and mother-in-law not to meet up with the Windsors (so poor Georgie had to go alone and got a verbal lashing from his brother). However by the time of the lucheon, the Kents and the Windsor had warmed up once again. Later Prince Michael and his wife visited his "Aunt Wallis" and recieved a couple of Cartier panter jewels from her.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 20, 2006, 10:15:35 PM
That doesn't mean she wasn't rather dismissive of her given Marina's background. She apparently was less enthused about meeting her after the marriage than was George--which caused tension between the brothers. Putting up with Wallis when she was the chere amie of the King (or future King) was one thing--doing it afterwards was another.

Photos from the infamous 1967 meeting

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/33799501.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/32405961.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/528018301.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 20, 2006, 10:21:16 PM
Indeed ! Marina was a very realistic woman as well. The Duke and Duchess were quite wealthy and without heirs, it would not hurt to be friendly with them after so many years (I mean by the time of the lucheon (both Helene and Mary were dead)). Anyway the Windsors were enchanted with the Kent children, and I heard Princess Alexandra also recieved presents from the Duchess.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 20, 2006, 10:27:51 PM
Meetings in 1972 shortly before the Duke's death

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/532234182.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/32943842.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 20, 2006, 10:54:52 PM
Yes...Wallis was touched by the visit and glad that the Duke was able to meet his niece before the end. I think it was also the first time Prince Charles met his grand-uncle (another Prince of Wales to boot !) !  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on August 21, 2006, 12:08:59 AM

I haven't been posting that long here on this site, but I want to say that this thread has been my favorite, and have so enjoyed everyone pictures and comments.    I can't explain my fascination with this couple, and was amazed to discover that there is actually a Duke and Duchess of Windsor Society, based in nearby Palm Desert, California.   Of course I immediately joined! ;D ;D ;D


(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/bcc3.jpg)

Mary, Countess of Harewood, and David, March 1953.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/bcc2.jpg)

Wallis gyrating to the latest dance in 1968.  No doubt David was sitting this one out.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/bcc1.jpg)

Wallis' last photo in 1979 or 1980.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/bcc4.jpg)

This is how I choose to remember Wallis, in her last days as Mrs Simpson, in 5 Bryanston Court, flattered by the attention of the King, and about to have the world at her fingertips, so it seemed.   The second storey row of windows between the yellow arrows was the Simpson flat in Bryanston, on George St, London.    I took the picture in 2004, got a peek inside at the lobby and had a short friendly chat with the doorman inside, but afterward spent quite a few minutes outside gazing up at the windows, imagining Wallis parting the sheer curtains as a black limousine drives up, and a slight figure in a grey suit dashes to the front door.   "He's here" she announces to her dinner guests, as their romance begins.

I only missed it by some 70 years, but it's the closest I've come to David and Wallis.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 21, 2006, 02:03:03 AM
Nice...It is a good way to remember Mrs. Simpson. However the Duchess of Windsor began her life as Duchess in France (she end up dying there). I wonder what the place looks like now after Afayed sold the contents of the house. BTW Another place of prilgrimage for the Windsors will be the government house in the Bahamas.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on August 21, 2006, 02:26:13 AM

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/bcc2.jpg)

Wallis gyrating to the latest dance in 1968.  No doubt David was sitting this one out.


I think the dance was the "hully gully", in case anyone's interested.  ::)

I agree, Cunarder, they were a fascinating pair.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 21, 2006, 03:03:35 AM
Yes The Duchess loves to dance. She once got out of a hospital bed to show the nurse how to dance the Cha-Cha. I also knew she liked doing the Charleston as well.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on August 21, 2006, 05:39:24 AM
I find your posting very touching, Cunarder.   I know exactly how you feel, although my particular passion is focused in a different direction - the last Romanov Family and the Alexander Palace, as I read your post, you echoed my own feelings and musings and described those beautifully.

I can agree the Duke and Duchess of Windsor make a colourful, fascinating couple, although she supplied 99 percent of the colour.   Their story contains all the essental ingredients of a really great, enduring romance.   Human love being stronger than a throne and all its glittering associations, seems a very tender quality.   However, I think it was very much more complicated than that.    Their marriage had to endure - but it endured on her terms.   At the end of the day, Wallis Simpson probably did Great Britain a great favour.   As I wrote before, a good Prince of Wales does not necessarily make a good king.   I think Wallis could have made a much better Queen Consort than David could ever have been a good king.   

Edward VIII's successor, George VI, was very much a 'milk and water' monarch.   (The fact that there are no threads here devoted to him, somehow indicates this).   However, he did provide a unifying force.   It was the virtue of family which won that day - very strong aspirational stuff.    Once again, it was the workings of a strong woman which made that reign succeed.   And, for the first time in a century we have a Queen Regnant and, as with Victoria, a large measure Queen Elizabeth II's success as a 21st century constitutional monarch, can be put down to the support of an imaginative, hard working, sometimes ridiculously outspoken, but always fiercely loyal, spouse.   One wonders, will history continue in this fashion? 

There is little doubt that in the UK, our understanding of the history taught about the period immediately before World War II, was strongly influenced by the attitudes of the ruling class.   I try to take the dispassionate view.   However, I still return to the conclusion - the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, yes, they appeared never to be dull, but given the timing, that is not what this country needed.   They would have been a disaster as monarchs.   There was a big enough enemy knocking on the door - Hitler and his Nazi Germany - without creating enemies within.    Rather than being a unifiying force in the face of impending invasion, I fear they would have, at the very best, divided the country.

But hey, life needs colour and romance and the Duke and Duchess of Windsor provided it in bucketfulls.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 21, 2006, 09:24:56 AM
Me too...Thanks for providing the colour and romance to our lives (David & Wallis !).
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Emperor of the Dominions on August 21, 2006, 09:51:00 AM
I wonder if the Duke ever regretted his decision to marry, or if he remained completely besotted with Wallis until the end?

R.I.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 21, 2006, 11:17:27 AM
No...I think he loved her till the end, even though the marriage did have its ups and downs (the Jimmy Donahue episode was one of those).  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: aussiechick12 on August 21, 2006, 03:52:01 PM
Some pictures of the young Wallis:

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/th_Wallis6.jpg) (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/Wallis6.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/th_Wallis5.jpg) (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/Wallis5.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/th_Wallis4.jpg) (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/Wallis4.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/th_Wallis3.jpg) (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/Wallis3.jpg)

1905:
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/th_Wallis1905.jpg) (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/Wallis1905.jpg)

1898:
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/th_Wallis1898.jpg) (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/Wallis1898.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on August 21, 2006, 04:07:36 PM
No...I think he loved her till the end, even though the marriage did have its ups and downs (the Jimmy Donahue episode was one of those).  ;)

I agree with you there.  Don't know if Wallis loved him for sure or not.

And Jimmy Donahue....EEEEWWWW.  Now, that was a waste of skin!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 21, 2006, 04:14:30 PM
Jimmy Donahue was a carachter in his own right: spoiled, rich and vulgar. Still, I would liked to have watched him in action, staying well clear of him at the same time.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on August 21, 2006, 04:29:25 PM
Jimmy Donahue was a carachter in his own right: spoiled, rich and vulgar. Still, I would liked to have watched him in action, staying well clear of him at the same time.

I am sure that one particular sailor he picked up wishes he had done the same.   :D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 21, 2006, 04:35:50 PM
I am sure you are right in that! However, that was not the sort of "action" I was thinking of.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on August 21, 2006, 05:02:32 PM
I wonder if the Duke ever regretted his decision to marry, or if he remained completely besotted with Wallis until the end?

R.I.

It is said he adored Wallis with the same intensity until the day he died.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Emperor of the Dominions on August 21, 2006, 09:01:44 PM
The Duke must have been aware of the fact that his commitment to the Duchess wasn't returned by her though. ??? Ribbentroff and Donahue were just 2 examples, and he was certainly aware of Donahue, as that triangle lasted four years. So I wonder if it was a case that his love for her was blind and he accepted her terms for the relationship, or whether he resigned himself to his life with Wallis to avoid any further embarrasment.

R.I.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 21, 2006, 09:28:53 PM
No...I am sure that Wallis was in love with David. However she is the kind of character who likes excitement and adventure (she travelled to places that most would not dream of going like Shanghai and Beijing). She once said that it is tough living this great romance on a day-to day basis (she was right of course!). So people like Jimmy Donahue (wealthy and intertesting) appeared to her adventurous spirit (no worries and do what you want and forget the conseguences). However she knew her limits to her fun and David (the greatest love of all)  gave her her freedom to do as she wished (and she was grateful for him in accepting who she was warts and all). It is the the fairy tale version, but I think it is still moving to me.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on August 22, 2006, 02:35:47 AM
Is this a suitable character to be an HRH never mind the Queen?  Being the Queen does require more than being 'colourful' and entertaining... looking at it from a 1930s perspective... and even now.   I would have thought loyalty would have been the very first requirement - bored or not.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 22, 2006, 02:49:27 AM
Well...The reationship between Charles and Camilla through the years were not mutually exculsive. Yet she is fit to be Queen. I think we should be more charitable to Wallis and David. They didn't have a role to play once they were exiled after their marriage (it was well known that the Queen Mother did not want them to come back to Britian to stay). Apart from the governorship of the Bahamas during WW II, they were virually jobless.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on August 22, 2006, 03:43:12 AM
The Duke must have been aware of the fact that his commitment to the Duchess wasn't returned by her though. ??? Ribbentroff and Donahue were just 2 examples, and he was certainly aware of Donahue, as that triangle lasted four years. So I wonder if it was a case that his love for her was blind and he accepted her terms for the relationship, or whether he resigned himself to his life with Wallis to avoid any further embarrasment.

R.I.

The commitment was returned by the Duchess, even though she did have these other "friends".  She said that she had to do the very best she could for David because of all he had given up for her and I believe she did this.  I'm not condoning extra-marital affairs but I do think she found David's never-ending adoration of her a little stifling, especially as I think he was quite happy to spend his time with her and no one else.  She was far more social and socially ambitious than he.  How much David knew is hard to say.  He is said to have put a stop to at least one of Wallis's friendships but I don't remember which one.  :-[ 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 22, 2006, 04:57:53 AM
I think Jimmy Donahue was one of them (when he went a bit too far !).  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 22, 2006, 09:32:29 AM
If David was not willing to display loyalty and dedication to duty, why should Wallis be expected to ? It was not even her country.
As for Camilla being worthy to be queen-  an adulterer & marriage wrecker ? She did not have the decency to bow out upon Charles marriage. Admittedly, there have been worse Queen's Consort but she does eptomise the role, imo.
 The saving grace with both couples is that they were/are devoted to each other over a long period of time, for better or worse I suppose.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 22, 2006, 08:59:46 PM
Are you sure that Camilla bowed out upon marriage ? It seems that Charles wanted to keep her as "a friend" on the side. That was a threat to the immature Diana, and it haunted her ever since. This having said, theirs was a love story that endured years of trauma. I am personally happy that they have found happiness at last. David and Wallis were the same. Wallis was willing to bow out and content to be the mistress (like Camilla), but his abdication was more than she could bear ("he did it for me you know ?"). She felt a weight and responsibility upon her for David's well being and took care of him.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 22, 2006, 09:17:05 PM
Eric, I said she did not have the decency to bow out. From all accounts she even rubbed it in Diana's face. Immature or not, she did deserve respect for the commitment she made to Charles. He just did not make the same commitment to her.
 Of course, now we find out that Wallis was still playing around whilst dating David ! The similarities between the 2 couples is more than romantic is ir not? Hypocracy comes to mind.
 Do not get me wrong- I think the Wallis & David story, although not exactly a fairy tale, was/is at least entertaining.  The Charles & Diana story proved tragic.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 22, 2006, 10:20:54 PM
Agreed...Somtimes history does repeats itself in some ways...  :(
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 23, 2006, 08:43:01 PM
Are we talking about Christopher Wilson's book?  All of the reviews I just looked up seem to think it's nothing but a liner for the kitty box.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 23, 2006, 08:47:49 PM
I, personally, was not referring to any particular book, but a compilation of readings.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 24, 2006, 10:20:45 AM
Oh, I know, I'm just saying all those supposedly salicious rumors-Wallis was really a man, the Duke was impotent, they were gay, they had affairs with such and such-a lot of it is just gossip, or at the very least, unsubstantiated.

They had enough confirmed faults (and virtues, yes) that one should be skeptical of certain claims.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 24, 2006, 10:28:47 AM
Indeed ! Jimmy Donahue was gay I think, so an affair with Wallis does not seem to have occured. What is more plausable is that Wallis was a fag-hag and enjoyed Jimmy's company.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 24, 2006, 10:44:45 AM
OR- Wallis was a drag queen all along !
 Gossip, they were the very "font of gossip". They LOVED being gossiped about. The idea being-" if they are gossiping about us, they at least know we are still alive and come to our dinner parties, buy us nights out". I am sure Wallis read the gossip columns first thing every day.
 Can't blame them. Their lives were so very vacant of real purpose.
 I started feeling "something" for Wallis when I started reading about her sad end.
 Lonely, isolated, dependent old lady. Fortunately, for her, she had the means to make it comfortable. At least as comfortable as such an end could be. She hooked me with the bequest of her estate.
 I have never warmed up to David, however. Such a whining, incompetent, selfish....[do not wish to insult any of our animal friends]
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 24, 2006, 12:33:55 PM
Wallis played the role (mother, lover and governess) that David wanted her to play. After he died. She lost her purpose...I think even she was surprised how much the Duke had meant to her until he's gone. It was downhill all the way. Sad... :'(
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on August 24, 2006, 12:45:58 PM
'Lonely, isolated, dependent old lady'... sadly this describes many, many hundreds of thousands of people today, without the support - both economic and personal - like that enjoyed by the Duchess of Windsor.

I fail to see the analagy between the Windsors and today's Princes of Wales his late wife and current wife.   If there is one, it is very tenuous at best.

The planet and attitudes have changed, unrecogniseably, in the intervening 70 years.   It really is impossible to draw comparisons.

tsaria   
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on August 24, 2006, 02:46:16 PM
Well gossip, sure.  But whether one BELIEVES said gossip is another story altogether.

 ;)

And yeah, why would a GAY man want to have an affair with a woman?  It makes no sense whatsoever.

Robert, who did she leave her estate to?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 24, 2006, 03:10:54 PM
This is what was printed in the NYT

"The Duchess of Windsor has named the Pasteur Institute as main beneficiary of her fortune, including her famed jewels, her lawyer said today. Suzanne Blum, the lawyer, said the will stipulated the research center would inherit all money remaining after donations to other charities....The lawyer said: ''She was a great friend of animals and handicapped children and always took an interest in their well-being. Her will says funds should not be used for vivisection.'' ....Her death raised controversy over whether her estate included jewels supposed to be crown property. But Buckingham Palace sources said any jewels belonging to the crown were returned after the Duke's death in 1972. "
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 24, 2006, 03:11:20 PM
The proceeds from the jewelry sale went to The Pasteur Institute, for AIDS research. I am not sure, but I think the same went from her remaining estate.
 Originally, AlFayed was to donate the prrceeds fron his sale to the same, but with the death of his son & Diana, I think he set up his own charitble fund. For what, I do not know.
 Gossip- yeah, I doubt that she took iook it very seriously, just made sure their names were mentioned- a lot!
 And, I can't answer for Donahue, of course, but who knows what the "affair" consisted of? It may have been purely platonic [Will & Grace?]. In any case, many gay men have affairs with women at some point in their lives. In his case, I think he was capable of anything.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 24, 2006, 05:19:00 PM
Some bits from Time magazine during 1936-1938:

Dec. 21, 1936
“Assuming that Mrs. Simpson becomes the wife of the man who last week called her before all the world "the woman I love," must she then be Her Royal Highness, the Duchess of Windsor?
It was ascertained last week that heavy insurance on jewels was taken out by Mrs. Simpson before she bolted from Britain to France (TIME, Dec. 14), and in Mayfair dowagers in recent months have said they recognized on Mrs. Simpson the same royal jewelry which lavish King Edward VII bought for his beauteous Queen Alexandra and which she bequeathed to her favorite grandson Edward VIII with the admonition (which probably has no force in law): "For your future queen, David dear."

Mrs. Simpson unquestionably knows many of the British Empire's most vital State secrets. The abdication of King Edward could not have satisfied that great lawyer, Home Secretary Sir John Simon, had not His Majesty's Government been today in possession of the most binding engagements signed by Mrs. Simpson not to divulge these secrets. It was also necessary, for the highest reasons of State and also for other reasons, to establish in an official manner whether or not last week Mrs. Simpson was with child, as suggested by the Paris newspaper L'Oeuvre.

Afterward, Lawyer Goddard & Dr. Kirkwood [a British OB/GYN traveling with Wallis] made no desperate air dash back to London but comfortably entrained at Marseilles, and Mr. Goddard. when he reached London, went directly to Mr. Baldwin at No. 10 Downing Street. Assuming, and everyone in Fleet Street did assume, that Dr. Kirkwood's report established the non-pregnancy of Mrs. Simpson, many benefits might flow from this. Among others, Lawyer Goddard, according to the British divorce law, could ask the Court to make Mrs. Simpson's decree nisi absolute not in the usual six months (on April 27), but in three months (Jan. 27). The law provides "six months" in order to make unnecessary a medical examination. In case the wife prefers to have her non-pregnancy established earlier by such an authority as Dr. Kirkwood, however, the Court has the right to act upon his findings on a three-month basis or even, where "grave necessity" can be shown, immediately.

That realistic Mrs. Simpson ever thought she could be Queen of England without a tremendous struggle is unlikely, and there is no reason to think she ever believed her "Boysy" would fight rather than run away to have more or less fun the rest of their lives....

Dowager Queen Marie of Rumania's favorite daughter Princess Ileana, wife of a Habsburg archduke with a castle less than 25 miles from that in which "Boysy" is staying this week invited Mrs. Simpson to visit her in Austria. The last Scotland Yard detectives assigned to Mrs. Simpson had just cleared out of Cannes. With bagfuls of threatening letters arriving by each post Mrs. Simpson urgently asked that her five French Government Secret Service guards be not withdrawn. They gallantly reassured her that they were staying, and, as the Lord-in-Waiting had left, it was said directly for Mrs. Simpson that she might accept the Archduchess Ileana's invitation, providing Mrs. Simpson's famed Aunt Bessie can accompany her as chaperon. One of the Lord-in-Waiting's last statements on his word of honor was, "Gentlemen, it is really true that Mrs. Simpson does not know where her aunt is at the moment."

Dec. 28, 1936
Upon new King George called last week "The Next Prime Minister of the United Kingdom," as many call hawk-nosed, hawk-minded Chancellor of the Exchequer Neville Chamberlain. Meanwhile a bona fide offer of $1,000,000 to go to Hollywood had been cabled to the Duke of Windsor & Mrs. Simpson (see p. 31) and, however remote acceptance was from their minds, it behooved the United Kingdom not to be niggardly with the Duke. At 5%, the interest on $1,000,000 is $50,000 per year and the Chancellor of the Exchequer was presently reported to have agreed with King George last week that Parliament be asked to vote $125,000 annually to maintain the Duke and problematic Duchess of Windsor. There was no thought of maintaining them in the style to which Mrs. Simpson has become accustomed in the last few months, though she will doubtless receive for Christmas the $25,000 ermine wrap now being completed in Oxford Street.
These included last week signing numerous papers which would have been signed in Buckingham Palace weeks ago by King Edward had he not carried them off to Fort Belvedere, intending to sign them there. A tendency for such papers to become scattered about and even blow out into the garden was a feature of the last reign, and new King George last week was a very great comfort to the British Cabinet in this respect.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 24, 2006, 05:23:01 PM
May 24, 1937
The happy couple posed easily for press photographers…. But not forthcoming was the one announcement for which all correspondents were waiting: the date of the wedding. Not for several days was this vital declaration made; then the Duke revealed that he and Mrs. Warfield will be married on June 3. Reason announcement was delayed: a stiff three-cornered fight behind the scenes between the Duke, the British Government and the Royal Family. This time the trouble was not money. Edward of Windsor was demanding, the Baldwin Government was doing everything in its power to prevent:
1) Public recognition of his wedding.
2) The Duke of Kent as best man.
3) Recognition of Mrs. Warfield as a royal duchess, entitled to be called Her Royal Highness and addressed as Madam or "Ma'am."
4) The Duke's return to Britain in the not too distant future, and a chance to "make himself useful" to the Empire.
The Duke's allies were limited to Queen Mary and the Duke & Duchess of Kent. Only one of the royal duchesses who was royal-born, as Princess Marina of Greece, the Duchess of Kent's pre-abdication backing of Mrs. Simpson was due almost entirely to her delight in annoying her Scottish sisters-in-law, but she has frequently let it be known that she would never spend a night under the same roof with "that woman”…. At week's end news of a compromise of a sort emerged.

Out at Windsor a tweed-capped workman climbed a stepladder in St. George's Chapel …..took down the armorial banner of the Duke of Windsor above his stall …and moved it three places down the line. This meant that in the ritual of the Garter and in the British peerage, the Duke of Windsor would rank fourth, after the King and his brothers Gloucester and Kent, so that even should Wallis Warfield be accorded rank as a royal duchess there would be no chance of her taking precedence over her sisters-in-law.

After the marriage of Queen Elizabeth to the then Duke of York she was raised to the rank of royal duchess by a special order signed by George V. Trying to avoid such an embarrassing situation, London wiseacres first insisted that marriage to the Duke of Windsor would make Mrs. Warfield "automatically" a royal duchess, then veered, suggested that she might be elevated to that position some time after the wedding, when public interest had died down.

Jun 7, 1937
The King has been pleased by letters patent under the great seal of the realm…to declare that the Duke of Windsor shall, notwithstanding his instrument of abdication executed on the 10th day of December, 1936, and His Majesty's Declaration of the Abdication Act of 1936, whereby effect was given to the said instrument, be entitled to hold and enjoy for himself only the title, style or attribute of Royal Highness, so however that his wife and descendants, if any, shall not hold said title, style or attribute.

Just six days before [the wedding]....this notice appeared in the official Court Circular. This meant that not only would the future Duchess of Windsor be definitely barred from the title of Royal Highness, a rank that even anti-Edwardian palace officials were walling to concede her three weeks ago, but that now she would be least in rank of all Britain's duchesses, as the most recently created.

This was the last in a series of parting blows delivered by the outgoing Baldwin Government. Four days earlier King George had personally telephoned his brother at the Chateau de Cande and explained apologetically that he had. been . forced not only to forbid any member of the Royal Family attending the wedding, but any British subject holding a Crown commission, which meant that such a harmless citizen as the former pilot of Edward's private plane. Wing Commander Edward ("Mouse") Fielden, was forced to refuse an invitation together with more potent officers and diplomats who were among the Duke of Windsor's friends.

Quick to sense the unpopularity of this move with the general public, at least two British subjects announced that they would defy the ban, go to the wedding anyway: Sir Walter T. Monckton, Attorney General for the Duchy of Cornwall, and Major Edward Dudley ("Fruity") Metcalfe, onetime equerry to Edward as Prince of Wales, who will serve as Best Man. The fact that Sir Walter is a rich man with an important private practice and that Fruity Metcalfe has retired from the Army did not spoil the popularity of the gesture. Later the Counselor of the British Embassy at Paris and the British Consul at Nantes were allowed to accept on the excuse that witnessing the wedding was part of their official duties…………

It was hot. To calm his jumping rage at what he considered the gratuitous insults of the British Government, the Duke tried violently mowing hay on the chateau grounds, soon gave it up to sip tea under the shade trees of the terrace.

There was a wedding rehearsal… he [Charles Mercier, mayor of Monts] found the Duke of Windsor halting but adequate in French, Mrs. Warfield fluent. "You needn't worry," cracked twice-married Wallis Warfield. "I know the responses."
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 24, 2006, 05:26:15 PM
Nov. 1, 1937
….. last week they [German political aides] were not surprised when Der Führer, having welcomed the Duke & Duchess of Windsor to his Bavarian château, drew royal Edward aside and was seen to engage him for 20 minutes in heated conversation. "The tour of our Fatherland which the Duke and Duchess have now completed," remarked one of the Dictator's aides, "has shown how right Der Führer was in judging that King Edward's abdication would be a serious blow to German interests." With ladies Herr Hitler is always the pink of effusive German politeness, took both the Duchess of Windsor's hands in his own as he warmly said good-by to her, snapped a good-by Nazi salute at the Duke of Windsor who snapped one back.

Slumberous and soporific as the drone of a bumble bee is the atmosphere of German feudalism in which dwells with dignity Der Obergruppenführer Herzog von Coburg. The Herzog or Duke of Coburg is the Head of the Family of Saxe-Coburg und Gotha. This was the name of the British Royal Family before it was changed to Windsor in 1917. Therefore last week European socialites were agog to see what kind of dinner the Duke of Coburg would give in Nürnberg for the Duke & Duchess of Windsor. Would the greatest ladies of the House of Coburg and of German society be invited to meet the Duchess, and would the Head of the House treat her as having the rank of Royal Highness—a rank King George VI has not yet bestowed on his American sister-in-law. Der Obergruppenführer Herzog von Coburg steered a middle course. He gave a dinner of 18 covers. Seventeen of those at the table were men. The 18th place card read "Ihre Koenig-liche Hoheit der Herzogin von Windsor" —Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Windsor.

Nov. 8, 1937
In London the newsweekly Cavalcade, which has fattened its circulation by specializing in Windsor news ever since the early days of the abdication crisis, announced results of a "nationwide" straw vote in which Cavalcade got subjects of King George VI to ballot on: 1) "Which foreign nation do you like best?" and 2) "Should the Duke and Duchess of Windsor be invited to return to England to live?" Result: 37% preferred the U. S., 28% France and 15% Germany; 61% were for inviting the Windsors back to England. This survey was made last July (Edward abdicated last December) by the British Institute of Public Opinion, the London branch of the serious, well-reputed American Institute of Public Opinion which makes personal interview surveys which it sells to the Press. Cavalcade has just signed up for its services, figures Britons must feel much the same about Edward today as they did in July.

In Paris last week the Duke lunched with U. S. and British correspondents, telling them he is "a very happily married man." "Sportsmanship is absent from some newspaper comment on the activities of the Duchess and myself," added Windsor. "We are looking forward to our tour of the United States to study methods of housing and industrial conditions. . . ." Commented Nobel Novelist Sinclair Lewis: "There is no longer any way for the Duke of Windsor to make himself useful to the world."

Dec. 20, 1937
Exactly one year after Edward VIII's abdication appeared last week a new edition of Burke's Peerage, ranking the Duchess of Windsor in England as the 33rd Lady in the Land, ranking the Duke … It was next discovered last week that the new Debrett's Peerage, an equally standard work, ranks the Duchess as 8th Lady. Consulted about this discrepancy, the Royal College of Arms this week inclined to agree with Debrett's, but weaseled by declaring "only the King is able to state the exact position." Informally an official of the College of Arms added: "The less said about this the better."
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 24, 2006, 05:27:31 PM
Jan. 3, 1938
Wallis Warfield Spencer Simpson was Woman of 1936, but the Duke & Duchess of Windsor, with the assistance of Herr Hitler and Mr. Bedaux, eliminated themselves as completely as possible from an important place in the history of 1937. Their names would scarcely have been mentioned in print at year end, had not London's blatant Daily Express been filled by a story of how the Duchess sent a doll last week to the Miners' Federation of South Wales where King Edward VIII once popularized …. The doll, instructed the Duchess, is not to be raffled off for charity but given to the child of an unemployed Welsh miner. "Will the little mother of this doll," wrote Last Year's Woman, "kindly name it Wallis?" During 1937 the $1,350,000 yacht Nahlin on which King Edward and Mrs. Simpson cruised was bought by King Carol of Rumania for his henna-haired Mme Magda Lupescu, who many a Rumanian feels is perennially That Woman of the Year.

Meantime England has a new King & Queen, but in 1937 it was Mary, the Queen Mother, who discreetly used her immense popularity and prestige to win public sympathy and kindle warmth for her second son and his wife. But while George VI ripened as a ruler and Elizabeth every day became less "The Smiling Duchess" and more Queen of England, Mary remained still superbly The Queen. King of the Year, if any, was certainly Leopold III of the Belgians, dynamic maker of international treaties, wise maker of Belgian cabinets, and a handsome, eligible young widower not to be overlooked by any lady of royal blood.

Nov. 21, 1938
The first meeting 'since his marriage in June 1937 between the Duke of Windsor and other members of the royal family took place last week at the Windsor suite in the swank Hotel Meurice in Paris. The… Duke of Gloucester, accompanied by the Duchess, stopped off in Paris … to spend Armistice Day with the Windsors. Friends intimated that the meeting had been arranged and approved by King George, who has long been anxious for Queen Mary's sake to bring the Duke of Windsor back into the royal family circle. The King's private plane flew the Gloucesters from Marseille to Paris and the British Embassy arranged the details of the meeting.

The Duchess of Gloucester, first royal family member to accept the thrice-married, U. S.-born Duchess of Windsor as a social equal, was reported to have been "very gracious." British newspapers noted the meeting in a few stilted lines but gossipy U. S. news organs speculated that the Duke & Duchess of Windsor would be invited home for the traditional royal Christmas season at Sandringham, that the Duke might soon be given a job abroad such as the Duke of Kent was given, that the pleased Windsors had promised to abandon plans for a U. S. trip until 1940 so as not to provide an embarrassment to the King & Queen's visit next spring.
But in London court circles said that the King had refused to receive the Duchess of Windsor, whose husband since last Christmas has pleaded with his family by letter and telephone to welcome his wife to England. The Duke of Windsor is expected by his family to break his two-year exile and revisit England early in the new year, alone.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Janet_W. on August 24, 2006, 05:30:58 PM
Generalizations are dangerous. Nonetheless, I think we're all familiar with the one about the homosexual man who gravitates towards the strong woman, and I have observed some truth in that generalization. The woman may be diamond-tough, career-oriented, sassy, stylish, bossy, a perfectionist, or a combination of these traits; she may be heterosexual, lesbian, or bisexual; she may be married, unmarried, promiscuous, or even celibate. Whatever the case, she is a Diva and as fascinating to certain homosexual as well as heterosexual men as is a flame is to a moth. 

The Duchess of Windsor falls into this category. She was clearly the alpha person in her marriage, and as she aged her looks reflected, all the more, her personality: brittle, critical, cynical. I've read enough about her to be of the opinion that early on she enjoyed dallying with "the little Prince," but later realized she was caught in a web of her own making when  "David" became determined not to relinquish her. Rare would be the man who could entrance Wallis Warfield Simpson on a 24/7 basis, and the Duke of Windsor was certainly not that man. Jimmy Donahue, however, was silly and reckless and foppishly entertaining--everything that the aging Duke was not. Moreover, Donahue was undaunted by Wallis; unlike the Duke, he did not seem to take her or life in general very seriously. So whether or not they had a sexual dalliance is almost immaterial; what matters is that he became the man who amused her, and the Duke receded into mere accessory status.

As people grow older they very often do cling to that which they have lost. Although in life the Duchess could treat her Duke very cavalierly, after his death her role was Keeper of the Flame. As Tsaria pointed out, the Duchess was not unlike many other people of her age, but her money and position did keep her from a more neglected and possibly ignomanious end. Unfortunately it WAS her money and position that brought about one of the final indignities: A camera recording her rapidly declining condition. I still can see, in my mind's eye, the photos taken from a telescopic lens showing the Duchess in a wheelchair, being spoonfed by a nurse.

Although the Duchess was not the sort of person I am inclined to admire, still I would prefer to think of her during her glory days when, exhibiting an uncanny resemblance to Snow White's Evil Stepmother, she was razor-sharp and undeniably soigne.



 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: aussiechick12 on August 24, 2006, 08:15:01 PM
Wedding:

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/th_Wedding-WallisandEdward.jpg) (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/Wedding-WallisandEdward.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/th_Wedding-WallisandEdward2.jpg) (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/Wedding-WallisandEdward2.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/th_Wedding-WallisandEdward1.jpg) (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/Wedding-WallisandEdward1.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/th_WallisandEdward.jpg) (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Windsors/Edward%20VIII%20and%20Wallis/WallisandEdward.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Wedding/Edward%20and%20Wallis/th_Wedding-DuchessandDukeofWindsor.jpg) (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/Wedding/Edward%20and%20Wallis/Wedding-DuchessandDukeofWindsor.jpg)

Does anyone have any others?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Guinastasia on September 13, 2006, 02:32:30 PM
Question-did the Duchess become a British citizen?  And did she lose her US citizenship?  I believe it's always been US law that an American citizen cannot accept a title, so if she was then a Duchess, did she have to renounce her citizenship?

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 13, 2006, 10:02:14 PM
I think in her case she got dual citizernship. Never heard of her renoucing her own us citizrnship, although by marrying a British subject she was elegiable for British Citizenship.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: RomanovFan on October 11, 2006, 05:21:58 PM
They were saying that, if all the lifespans had continued on as they did, regardless of anything else, then Bertie still would have died 20 years before his brother so the succession would've bypassed him and gone straight to David's niece, Elizabeth. It's the same as what happened with Queen Victoria--she succeeded her uncle, Wiliam IV, because her father, the Duke of Kent, was already deceased.

oh, okay. I get it. Yeah, that makes since. But had QV's father been alive, she would've been Princess Royal herself at some point, and Queen eventually anyway. But I'll always wonder why she only had 2 names, and her descendants, English or otherwise (besides Greek and Russian) have tons of names...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Taren on October 11, 2006, 05:55:32 PM
They were saying that, if all the lifespans had continued on as they did, regardless of anything else, then Bertie still would have died 20 years before his brother so the succession would've bypassed him and gone straight to David's niece, Elizabeth. It's the same as what happened with Queen Victoria--she succeeded her uncle, Wiliam IV, because her father, the Duke of Kent, was already deceased.

oh, okay. I get it. Yeah, that makes since. But had QV's father been alive, she would've been Princess Royal herself at some point, and Queen eventually anyway. But I'll always wonder why she only had 2 names, and her descendants, English or otherwise (besides Greek and Russian) have tons of names...

Probably because thanks to George IV she was lucky to get the names she had. Several other names were suggested (among them Georgiana), but at her christening George IV shot them all down and declared her name to be Alexandrina Victoria, after the Tsar of Russia and her mother. Not all of her descendants had long names. Her son and heir was Albert Edward.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: jehan on October 11, 2006, 07:32:24 PM
They were saying that, if all the lifespans had continued on as they did, regardless of anything else, then Bertie still would have died 20 years before his brother so the succession would've bypassed him and gone straight to David's niece, Elizabeth. It's the same as what happened with Queen Victoria--she succeeded her uncle, Wiliam IV, because her father, the Duke of Kent, was already deceased.

oh, okay. I get it. Yeah, that makes since. But had QV's father been alive, she would've been Princess Royal herself at some point, and Queen eventually anyway. But I'll always wonder why she only had 2 names, and her descendants, English or otherwise (besides Greek and Russian) have tons of names...

Probably because thanks to George IV she was lucky to get the names she had. Several other names were suggested (among them Georgiana), but at her christening George IV shot them all down and declared her name to be Alexandrina Victoria, after the Tsar of Russia and her mother. Not all of her descendants had long names. Her son and heir was Albert Edward.

I think though, that having multiple names was a later phenomenon in the nineteenth century- in Britain at any rate.  I don't think that any of George lll's children had more than 3 names, and most had only 2.  George lV was George William Frederick, but his brother was only Frederick Augustus, and William lV was only William Henry, I think.    George lV's daughter was just Charlotte Augusta.  So having only 2 names was not all that uncommon at that time.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on October 11, 2006, 10:56:54 PM
Yes, her christening was quite the spectacle with the names being suggested and GIV rejecting them until the Duchess of Kent was in tears. He wasn't too fond of the Coburgs--I wonder how much he might've blamed Leopold (the Duchess's brother) for Charlotte's death. He didn't even want him as a son-in-law to begin with.

I can understand why GIII's children only had 2-3 names--he had 15 children, there are only so many acceptable royal names.  :) The younger children only had 1 name.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: royal_netherlands on November 17, 2006, 07:24:28 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/Royals%20past%20and%20present/82269_129187.jpg)
Duke and Duchess of Windsor with their pugs

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/Royals%20past%20and%20present/82355_129270.jpg)
Wallis Simpson at the window of Buckingham Palace watching the Trooping the Colour on the 3rd June 1972. Wallis had travelled to England and was received by the Queen on the death of her husband, the Duke of Windsor, formerly King Edward VIII.


RN


Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2006, 09:51:41 PM
She was buried with him at Frogmore now.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on November 18, 2006, 06:48:20 AM
Question-did the Duchess become a British citizen?  And did she lose her US citizenship?  I believe it's always been US law that an American citizen cannot accept a title, so if she was then a Duchess, did she have to renounce her citizenship?



America does not recognize titles so it does not make any difference if you accept one or not.

Also the USA does not reconginize dual citizrnship though it is not illegal.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on November 18, 2006, 06:55:37 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/Royals%20past%20and%20present/82355_129270.jpg)

RN


Kelly Klein now owns the perals worn by the Duchess in this picture.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 19, 2006, 05:19:09 AM
Part of her divorce settlement ?  ???
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on November 19, 2006, 01:17:15 PM
They were bought for her by her husband so, divorce or not, they would still belong to her. Are they actually divorced anyway? It seems they were separated forever but without divorce filings.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on November 20, 2006, 11:46:30 AM
The diaries of Sir Alan 'Tommy' Lascelles, Private Secretary to King George VI and, for the first year of her reign, Queen Elizabeth II, have been published.   Excerpts from the book are being published in a UK newspaper.   Lascelles first royal employer was the Prince of Wales, later King Edward VIII.   His recollections of the character of the Duke of Windsor are far from complimentary.

The headlines read -

'PRINCE CHARMLESS'

'Vulgar.   Selfish.   Totally unscrupulous ... and insatiably obsessed with sex.   Published for the first time, this blistering portrait of Edward VIII - the king who threw away his throne for Mrs Simpson - was written by a royal aide who knew him best.

A couple of examples -

'...Ulick Alexander (Keeper of the Privy Purse) has told me that, in the Mayu of that year, he at last induced King Edward VIII to go round his immense kitchen garden and glasshouses at Windsor.   The particular pride of the old Scottish gardener ws the peach-house, at that time a mass of blossom, promising a record crop of peaches.

'The King passed no comment until his tour of inspection was ended;  he then turned to the gardener, and told him to cut all the blossom on the following day and to send it to Mrs Simpson, and to one or two other ladies, to embellish their drawing rooms in London.   Caligula himself can never have done anything more wanton.'

'Sunday, October 2, 1945

'...The whole Windsor problem has recently been complicated by the discovery among the German Foreign Office archives of a set of top-secret telegrams between Ribbentrop and Stohrer (German Ambassador in Madrid), regarding certain alleged overtures made to the Windsors by German agents when they were marooned in Portugal in May 1940..

'If the Windsors' reactions were as implied in this correspondence the result is, to say the least, highly damaging to themselves.

'Only one other copy of this set of telegrams is said to be in existence, and that is in American hands;  the Foreign Office is taking steps to recover it.'

There is too much to precis right now, suffice to say, Sir Alan Lascelles was not impressed by his erstwhile employer or by his behaviour.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 20, 2006, 12:39:59 PM
Very interesting tsaria, thanks for typing it out. I'm sure I've heard the below story somewhere before . . . <scratches head> ???


'...Ulick Alexander (Keeper of the Privy Purse) has told me that, in the Mayu of that year, he at last induced King Edward VIII to go round his immense kitchen garden and glasshouses at Windsor.   The particular pride of the old Scottish gardener ws the peach-house, at that time a mass of blossom, promising a record crop of peaches.

'The King passed no comment until his tour of inspection was ended;  he then turned to the gardener, and told him to cut all the blossom on the following day and to send it to Mrs Simpson, and to one or two other ladies, to embellish their drawing rooms in London.   Caligula himself can never have done anything more wanton.'

 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 20, 2006, 03:32:23 PM
I remember - it's mentioned in the drama 'Bertie and Elizabeth'.

BTW, it's a moot point, but does anyone know, if Wallis and David had had children, what would their title have been? I know they wouldn't have had HRH, and as far as I know the dukedom of Windsor had no courtesy title, so would they just have been 'Lord/Lady X Windsor'?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on November 20, 2006, 04:05:26 PM
I thought it was made plain to Edward that any children of the marriage would bear no title?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 20, 2006, 04:23:07 PM
I'm not sure - I thought it was just clear they wouldn't be HRH. But as the children of a duke surely they would be entitled to the courtesy titles of lord/lady?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 20, 2006, 06:04:46 PM
I think the children may inheited the title but no HRH I think... ???

Anyway I do not like "Bertie & Elizabeth", they made the Queen Mum into a kind of saint. She was far from that...and very tough personaility.  :(
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on November 20, 2006, 07:51:24 PM
I don't think so, Eric.  I'm pretty sure that when Edward was given the title Duke of Windsor, he was told that it was a one off only.  It wasn't to be handed down to the next generation.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 20, 2006, 08:30:52 PM
I think there must be some provision for children if there were to be...Also I think the royal family believed that she would dump him in the end. It was a surprise to them that Wallis could stay the course till the end. Even the Queen Mum softened towards her during Wallis's last years.  ::)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on November 21, 2006, 04:10:41 PM
In what way did the Queen Mother soften towards Wallis in her last years, Eric?

I know Elizabeth was cordial to Wallis at the Queen Mary memorial in '67 and during the Duke's funeral in '72 but surely that was just protocol. 

Maybe there are other incidents I don't know about?  ???
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 21, 2006, 07:43:30 PM
The process started with the death of the the Duke. The Queen Mother was visably concerned when Wallis told guests of the furneral to visit them in Paris and drew her aside and told her "I know how you feel...I have been through that myself".

A few years later, when the Queen Mother made a visit to Paris. The Duchess of Windsor's home was on the agenda. It was cancelled at the last moment. However Elisabeth knew that it was the mental condition that prevented her visit. she sent Wallis a bunch of roses and signed "In Friendship Elizabeth".

Years later When the Queen Mother attended an exhibition of Cecil Beaton's work in London. She commented on each subject whom she knew personally. When she got to one of the Duke & Duchess of Windsor, she paused for a moment and smiled "They were so happy togather." and moved on. I think I would called it softening of her stance towards the Duchess. A great leap since "That Woman".
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 22, 2006, 10:28:38 AM
Probably all just PR exercises since the Queen Mother became conscious that a generation that couldn't remember 1936 felt the attitude of the RF to the Windsors was cold and cruel. I'm sure the QM acted and spoke only out of the desire to avoid being seen as 'cold' in people's eyes than for any real 'softening' of her stance towards Wallis.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 22, 2006, 11:17:56 AM
I don't really blame Elizabeth for disliking Wallis, it's understandable. As much as George VI did an excellent job as King (and her as Queen) it damaged his health. Sad to be widowed at 51.  :(
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 22, 2006, 11:46:52 AM
Not to mention that Wallis just wasn't Elizabeth's type of woman - and vice versa.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 22, 2006, 12:20:29 PM
Yes true Prince! Wallis was rather common and vulgar sadly, she would never have fitted in with the aristocracy and royal family, especially in those days :(.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 22, 2006, 07:30:51 PM
Yes even so...I think I would give the Queen Mother the credit for being kind in her later years. She would have become thankful that she did become Queen as oppose to just Duchess of York had Edward found a suitable wife. Also I think she genuinely was surprise that the marriage lasted so long (they all thought that "the adventuress" would drop David after a few years, hense the insistant of not giving HRH). Wallis had gained her place in the family (at least Royal Family plot at Frogmore) for being a companion to him all through the years.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on November 23, 2006, 10:11:44 AM
Wallis was many things but common and vulgar were not two of them.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 23, 2006, 10:18:11 AM
Just to say that there's a difference between softening your stance towards someone and softening your attitude towards them.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 23, 2006, 11:27:40 AM
Wallis was many things but common and vulgar were not two of them.

TampaBay

Oh TB, I think she was. Referring to Elizabeth and Queen Mary as "iced veined bitches" is common. And appearing at balls in ultra viloet dresses is rather vulgar IMO :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 23, 2006, 12:04:03 PM
I don't think Wallis would ever fit on with Queen Mary and "Cookie" ( Nikename for the Queen Mother coined by the Windsors). Her style was too sharp, chic and sophisticated for England at that time.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 23, 2006, 03:56:57 PM
Wallis was many things but common and vulgar were not two of them.

TampaBay

Oh TB, I think she was. Referring to Elizabeth and Queen Mary as "iced veined bitches" is common. And appearing at balls in ultra viloet dresses is rather vulgar IMO :)

Actually I thought it was David who said this, Eddie. ;)

Personally, I don't see why people are so interested in Wallis's 'style' . . . people will forgive a lot for 'style' won't they?!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on November 23, 2006, 04:20:04 PM
I never said Wallis was a saint.  She could be a bitch, was a snob of the highest tier and wrote the book on social climbing.  However, I do not see her as common and vulgar.  Courtney Love is vulgar and Paris Hilton is common.  Wallis was too "American" and pushy to ever fit in with the court set of her time.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kimberly on November 23, 2006, 04:22:52 PM
Actually there is a very interesting docu on the TV at the moment about Elizabeth and Bertie. Wallis is not coming over as "Flavour of the month" at all
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on November 23, 2006, 04:33:18 PM
The expression 'all style... no substance', says everything.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kimberly on November 23, 2006, 04:51:48 PM
In what way did the Queen Mother soften towards Wallis in her last years, Eric?

I know Elizabeth was cordial to Wallis at the Queen Mary memorial in '67 and during the Duke's funeral in '72 but surely that was just protocol. 

Maybe there are other incidents I don't know about?  ???
They had a piece of this footage on TV tonight, it looked to me that Elizabeth walked straight past Wallis without acknowledging her. ( the Queen Mary memorial)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on November 23, 2006, 05:09:47 PM
Wallis was many things but common and vulgar were not two of them.

TampaBay
And appearing at balls in ultra viloet dresses is rather vulgar IMO :)

I believe it was at a ball reported by Prince Christopher of Greece that Wallis was wearing a violet lamé gown with a bright green sash.  Apparently,  she stuck out like a sore thumb.  Or perhaps because she was David's doxy that all eyes were on her.   :D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on November 23, 2006, 05:10:54 PM
Wallis was many things but common and vulgar were not two of them.

TampaBay

Oh TB, I think she was. Referring to Elizabeth and Queen Mary as "iced veined bitches" is common. And appearing at balls in ultra viloet dresses is rather vulgar IMO :)

Actually I thought it was David who said this, Eddie. ;)



That is correct.  It was David.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 23, 2006, 07:31:54 PM
I think the Queen Mother's sympathy softened towards Wallis after David died. The breakthrough was the trip to Buckingham Palace for the furneral. It was noted that she tried to be nice to her after seeing Wallis starting to fail in her memory. The follow up trip to Paris to visit Wallis (which did not happen due to the refusal on the Duchess side on the excuse of her declining health) was meant to be a peace offering. She continue to sent Wallis flowers and cards (signing her name with the R following was meant to be personal). I would love to think the Queen Mother finally laid her bitterness aside and decided to be charitable (she even attended her furneral).  :) :) :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on November 24, 2006, 06:57:10 AM
The expression 'all style... no substance', says everything.

tsaria

This is what I have been saying for the last three years.  David & Wallis could never have done all attributed to them becuase they were not that smart.  They were all style and cafe society to the nth degree.  Just because one admires the style of Walla does not mean one admires her completely and all her attributes. 

I look at Wallis and David as too people.  I believe David was more inherently "evil, greedy and self-centered", for lack of better words, than Wallis.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on November 24, 2006, 07:25:21 AM
Yes, I agree that Wallis was overall a better person that David was.  Possibly describing him as "evil" might be a bit strong, though I note what you've said about your choice of words, TB!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on November 24, 2006, 08:10:14 AM
Yes, I agree that Wallis was overall a better person that David was.  Possibly describing him as "evil" might be a bit strong, though I note what you've said about your choice of words, TB!

I did not know a better word to use than evil.  I guess "selfish and sel-centered" alone best some it up.  Wallis never tried to curry favor with anyone.  Lack of deference was not her strong point and probably was her "Achilles Heel".  Then again all Americans have a problem with the concept of deference as understood and prtaciced by the by the British.  THe UK is a much more "propoer and polite society" than the USA.  These factors conspired aganist Wallis.  Like Vicky who never became 100% German/Prussian, Wallis never transformed and became even 1% British.  She remained "American" al her life.  This explains her perferance for New York City and Palm Beach.

I think her mania for designer "duds" and jewelry was "partially to get Cookis's goat"!  Wallis received great press for her style everytime she attended an event. 

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on November 24, 2006, 08:11:39 AM
Yes, I agree that Wallis was overall a better person that David was.  Possibly describing him as "evil" might be a bit strong, though I note what you've said about your choice of words, TB!

I did not know a better word to use than evil.  I guess the words "selfish and sefl-centered" alone best some it up.  

Wallis never tried to curry favor with anyone.  Lack of deference was not her strong point and probably was her "Achilles Heel".  Then again all Americans have a problem with the concept of deference as understood and prtaciced by the by the British.  THe UK is a much more "propoer and polite society" than the USA.  These factors conspired aganist Wallis.  Like Vicky who never became 100% German/Prussian, Wallis never transformed and became even 1% British.  She remained "American" al her life.  This explains her perferance for New York City and Palm Beach.

I think her mania for designer "duds" and jewelry was "partially to get Cookis's goat"!  Wallis received great press for her style everytime she attended an event.  

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on November 24, 2006, 08:13:14 AM
Again, I think it must always be remebered than neither Wallis or David were all that smart.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 24, 2006, 10:01:28 AM
Wallis was definitely the stronger character, IMHO - virtually all of George V's male descendants married women with stronger personalities and more charisma than them!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on November 24, 2006, 10:57:11 AM
Wallis was definitely the stronger character, IMHO - virtually all of George V's male descendants married women with stronger personalities and more charisma than them!


True!!!  Both Cookie and Wallis "ruled the roost" which in and of itself is quite an accomplishment.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 24, 2006, 11:01:55 AM
Wallis was definitely the stronger character, IMHO - virtually all of George V's male descendants married women with stronger personalities and more charisma than them!


True!!!  Both Cookie and Wallis "ruled the roost" which in and of itself is quite an accomplishment.

TampaBay

Just a small note on this (sorry, I know it's ot) - in his book 'Royal Subjects', Theo Aronson reports that the Queen Mother tended to 'big up' her husband when talking about him, and consistently denied that she 'wore the trousers'. Apparently, she always said 'Of course, I had to ask the King' or 'the King decided that' . . .
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 24, 2006, 03:29:46 PM
Thank you! I stand corrected. My opinion of Edward has fallen even furthur. How dare he speak of his mother like that, disgraceful.

I realise no one is perfect and Wallis had good qaulitys too. I can't remember the exact story but I believe it was either the wife of Fruity Metcalfe or Alan Lascelles that wrote some very unflattering storys of Wallis's behaviour. Also her behaviour towards sweet Thelma Furness (& Edwards) was to much.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on November 24, 2006, 06:16:53 PM
Thank you! I stand corrected. My opinion of Edward has fallen even furthur. How dare he speak of his mother like that, disgraceful.

I realise no one is perfect and Wallis had good qaulitys too. I can't remember the exact story but I believe it was either the wife of Fruity Metcalfe or Alan Lascelles that wrote some very unflattering storys of Wallis's behaviour. Also her behaviour towards sweet Thelma Furness (& Edwards) was to much.

I don't know if she was critical of Wallis, but Baba Metcalfe  was known to be furious with David for his treatment of her husband in later years.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 24, 2006, 09:00:57 PM
I tend to think Windsor men (all sons of KG V & QM) were mentally weak. They attracted a bevy of strong women marring into the family. From Cookie to Wallis, Alice, Marina, Marie Christine, Diana and now Camilla. All of them are strong in their own way. ???
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on November 25, 2006, 03:58:49 AM
I think Eric is absolutely right in that assessment.

Unfortunatley I did not see the documentary on the late Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother the other evening, but a Russian friend who watched it told me she now understands the Queen Mother's attitude to and behavior towards Wallis Simpson.    It was David she wanted to marry.   I understood this, but thought it was because he was then Prince of Wales as well as being infinitely more attractive than his younger brother.    The impression given was that she was genuinely in love with David and continued to love him.   So, although there were plenty other reasons to attribute her antipathy towards Wallis, fundamentally it was because she loved him and always loved him.

However reliable this explanation might be, it does answer many questions.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 25, 2006, 03:04:32 PM
I loved the programme! Very nicely done. But the same old George V bashing  ::) and referring to Queen Mary as a "german princess" which isn't really accurate. They showed some lovely old photos and footage.

Interesting thought re Elizabeths' feelings for David. Though I think Elizabeths antipathy towards Wallis bolied down to a variety of reasons including Wallis making fun of her behind her back and suggesting style changes to her home!! No leo likes to hear that!! :D

As for Wallis I wouldn't be suprised if she wasn't a bit jealous of Elizabeths popularity, lineage and title, of which she craved.

Goodness, imagine if we had had "Queen Wallis" makes me shudder!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 25, 2006, 04:05:11 PM
I loved the programme! Very nicely done. But the same old George V bashing  ::) and referring to Queen Mary as a "german princess" which isn't really accurate. They showed some lovely old photos and footage.

That thing about Queen Mary annoyed me too! Soooo many people get that wrong!  :P But I really enjoyed the programme, especially seeing the footage of the unveiling of the plaque to Queen Mary.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 25, 2006, 04:08:46 PM
I agree! Very interesting seeing the royal family lined up. Princess May was the MOST English of Princesses :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on November 25, 2006, 05:27:39 PM
If there had been a 'Queen Wallis' would the British Monarchy have survived into the 21st century?

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 25, 2006, 05:40:02 PM
Interesting question. I think "King Edward" would have done more damage. The first few months of his reign shows us he wasn't cut out for it. How on earth would he have handled the war? Not a patch on his brother and sister-in-law.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 25, 2006, 05:42:12 PM
I don't usually defend David, but you never know, the war might have brought out the best in him. In the long term though, it wouldn't have been good for the monarchy.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: lexi4 on November 25, 2006, 08:34:44 PM
Hi all,
I just finished reading this thread and enjoyed every post. I do enjoy discussions about this fascinating couple. Just a note of triva, Wallis Simpson was the first woman to be named "Person of the Year" by Time magazine.
I was wondering if some of you might list some of your favorite books about Wallis and David.
Tampa Bay,
I agree, Wallis was an American and lacked the "civility" of the Brittish.
Lexi
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 26, 2006, 04:46:32 AM
Hi Lexi. I really enjoyed "Battle Royal" by Kirsty McLeod very readable and interesting IMO. Also Charles Highams bio of Wallis was interesting if a bit dry in places. Phillip Ziegler's "King Edward VIII" is well written.
Iv'e not read Sarah Bradford's "The Reluctant King" yet but hear it's good! :)

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: lexi4 on November 26, 2006, 10:51:03 AM
Hi Lexi. I really enjoyed "Battle Royal" by Kirsty McLeod very readable and interesting IMO. Also Charles Highams bio of Wallis was interesting if a bit dry in places. Phillip Ziegler's "King Edward VIII" is well written.
Iv'e not read Sarah Bradford's "The Reluctant King" yet but hear it's good! :)


[/quote
Eddieboy,
Thank you! I appreciate the book suggestions. I may be heading to the book store later today and can pick one up. I am fascinated by the whole Edward/Wallis saga. And watching Royals get their bonnets in a stir is always fun. (I mean no disrespect by that.)
Lexi
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 26, 2006, 07:26:12 PM
I agree that Elisabeth was "in love" with David and like other girls from aristocratic backgrounds hoping to bag the Prince of Wales. However David was into married ladies only (even Wallis was married at the time). That was the reason she kept Bertie waiting until the third proposal (something that "Bertie & Elisabeth" failed to mention). Another reason for her apathy was Wallis lack of tact (She was very forward & direct (sins of being an American) and too showy (remember Hollywood glamour) for the English to stomach). Queen Mary almost at once branded her "an Andventuress" !  ::)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on November 26, 2006, 10:22:03 PM
I always get a kick reading any new posts about David and Wallis.   But the idea that Elizabeth Bowes-Lyons was "in love" with David is a new one to me.  Maybe my reading has been limited, but I always thought that at least one reason she turned down Bertie's proposals was her distain for assuming a royal life...and all it entailed.   And this when he was second-in-line for the throne, so it seems a bit difficult to imagine that she entertained much desire to become David's wife at all.   Maybe she was intrigued by his free spirit, so unlike the stuffiness of the traditional royal family.  I've always believed her animosity towards Wallis stemmed from her being the official reason for David abdicating (a mere convenient excuse), and placing her and Bertie in a position neither was ready for or wanted.  All of which, she believed, lead to Bertie's early death.  Still,  the suggestion of love between her and David is an exciting "what if..'    I guess we'll never know for sure.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on November 26, 2006, 10:51:05 PM
The 'in love' theory showed up in at least one bio (I'm not sure which one) but I wasn't aware that it was given any real credence.  ???
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 27, 2006, 03:59:17 AM
I think she was...even when she thought about the days with David (who was with Thelma then) Elizabeth smiled and said "He was so much fun then...". Anyway who wasn't a little in love with David then ?  :P
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on November 27, 2006, 04:12:05 AM
The 'in love' theory showed up in at least one bio (I'm not sure which one) but I wasn't aware that it was given any real credence.  ???

Royal Feud, Royal Marriages, The Royals and The Rise and Fall of the House of Windsor.

As time goes on the "in-love with David" is gaimimg more credence.


TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on November 27, 2006, 08:43:50 AM
But most of those books were pretty tabloidy--has it appeared in any of the more serious biographies of either Elizabeth or Edward VIII?

Being a 'little in love' isn't unlikely given his youthful charm and good looks but in love enough to be so bitter and petty (in some opinions) for decades afterwards? I don't know.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on November 27, 2006, 10:41:57 AM
I know the D&D of W were interviewed for the "Royal Feud" book.

The Rise and Fall of the House of Windsor was not really a tabloid book though it did quote tabloid gossip in the chapter "House of Windsor & The Press".

The "in love" concept was discussed but not in the context of it being true or false.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 27, 2006, 02:38:23 PM
This is interesting.:)

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/27112006/325/wallis-simpson-jewellery-sale.html
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on November 27, 2006, 02:48:32 PM
Wallis was many things but common and vulgar were not two of them.

TampaBay

Oh TB, I think she was. Referring to Elizabeth and Queen Mary as "iced veined bitches" is common. And appearing at balls in ultra viloet dresses is rather vulgar IMO :)

There was a quote from the Queen Mother referencing their vulgarity:

In a letter dated Aug 14, 1940, the Queen Mother (referencing the Windsors then en route to the Bahamas to take up the post of Governor), was extremely irritated about some cables that George VI had received from Walter Monckton that dealt with the Duke's attempts to retrieve some items from his home (in occupied France, mind you) to take them to Nassau. She wrote to Monckton that their preoccupation with such, while Britain was fighting for its survival, was distasteful. She said: "For sheer vulgarity it is hard to beat and though it made us laugh, one's mind went automatically from pink sheets to our poor people spending nights in little tin shelters, and then going to work in the morning."
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 27, 2006, 02:52:35 PM

She wrote to Monckton that their preoccupation with such, while Britain was fighting for its survival, was distasteful.

To true!  ::)

Was that the same occasion that Wallis requested her swim suit?? Apparently it was dubbed "Cleopatras whim". Unbelievable!! :D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Janet on November 27, 2006, 04:15:53 PM

As time goes on the "in-love with David" is gaimimg more credence.


TampaBay

Credence?   Or is it just myth becoming reality through repetition?i
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on November 27, 2006, 06:53:48 PM
Quite possibly, Janet, acceptance through suggestion and all that.  :D

As Eric's already said, most young women of the day were in love with David to a degree -- he was blonde, blue eyed and the Prince of Wales!

Apart from a certain sense of fun, I don't think Elizabeth and David had much in common.  Elizabeth may have been fantasising about being Princess of Wales, though, more than any genuine love she felt for David.  It certainly appears also that she was not really in love with Bertie when she accepted his proposal -- had she not refused him at least once previously?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Janet on November 27, 2006, 07:28:47 PM
-- had she not refused him at least once previously?

Supposedly it was the third proposal from him that she accepted.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 27, 2006, 08:08:12 PM
Yes...Indeed it was the third. When George V open the flood gates to allow the aristocratic girl into intermarry with the Royal Family, Queen Mary had eyed Lady Elisabeth Bowes-Lyon as one of those being "suitable". It would not be too much for Elisabeth to hope for the top (Like Lady Diana Spencer years later). And yes, David was one with the idol looks (Blond and blue-eyed--the type that is still popluar today...eg. Beckham). However Elisabeth was a sensible girl and accepted the one that came for her. She evidently enjoyed David's company and visits to the Fort enthrolled her. That is before Wallis entered into the picture.

As for Wallis's extragence, I don't think she could be blamed. She wasn't even in Britian ! How can she share or understand the situation there  (not to mention the fact that she was rejected there). As far as she was considered, she was only living up her life as the consort of a royal-in-exile. The greater blame should be David. He was the one who saw the hardship and cried "Something should be done about the hardship of the miners in Britian !". Had the exile had enbittered him to forget his country ? Anyway Elisabeth was not living in poverty (she got more dress coupons) and Windsor Castle was laden with the luxury of food.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on December 03, 2006, 06:52:23 PM
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/safari.jpg)

This post seemed more appropriate in the D&D of Windsor thread rather than continue in the Queen Mary Pt 3 thread.

I'm not sure if this is the same safari outfit referenced by boffer and RN in that thread, but this one was offered in the Sotheby's auction, estimated opening bid $1500-2000.   Circa 1925.

As David described it:
When in East Africa I designed a special type of safari shorts.  These were made of thick khaki drill, which could be worn long, in the bush, to protect the knees from long grasses and thorny underbrush, or could be buttoned up above the knee for the sake of coolness on the march in more open country.  (A Family Album p.86)

Seems like a very sensible innovation, but I'm wondering whether it was one his father approved of.  Not that it mattered much to David.  ;D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 03, 2006, 08:58:55 PM
It is going to the auction as of now ?  ???
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on December 03, 2006, 10:14:50 PM
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/david1.jpg)

I don't know whether the outfit sold at the Sept 16 1997 Sotheby's auction, or if it's the one referred to in the previous QM Pt 3 thread.   I would guess David had several in his wardrobe.   Here's a rather fuzzy shot of him in Uganda, 1928, in the center, standing, with the cane.  He's not wearing his "designer shorts" as shown in the previous photo above. 

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/david2.jpg)

Closeup of the Sotheby's outfit, with the customized shorts.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/doll.jpg)

I am not a collector...if fact I've been pruning down my "stuff" for the past few years.  I enjoy seeing photos of what's in public and private collections, wonderful websites like this, and admiring them as such.   But if I WERE a collector of memorabilia, something like this doll would be fascinating to have.   It's a chimney-sweep figure, made by Queen Mary, then Princess of Wales, and given to David as a child.  He kept this doll by his bedside until he died.   Such an incredibly personal item...when I think about it, too personal and private really for me to consider, but what a fantastic historical item, and the intimate connections and stories probably behind it.  It was seen still in David's bedroom, on his nightstand, after the Windsor Villa's restoration by Mohammed Al Fayed, shown on the "Edward on Edward" video produced in 1996..  It was offered (for $800-1200!) on the Sotheby's auction at the same time as the safari outfit in 1997.   For me, this type of item would be worth more than a closet full of the Windsor's finery.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on December 03, 2006, 11:27:37 PM
Absolutely Cunarder--that would be the kind of item I'd love to get.

While it's just a single item, I think it helps to flesh out a bit of the mother/son relationship. I don't think I've ever read,in bios of either person, that Queen Mary made toys for any of her children, let alone that EVIII would've held onto such an item for his entire life. It's such a contrast to some of the bitter statements he made about his mother as well as showing a softer, more traditionally maternal side of Queen Mary. I would think that an anecdote such as this would be as important as any of the angry statements that EVIII made that are so endlessly repeated.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on December 04, 2006, 01:41:13 AM
Yes, I believe Queen Mary also started an album for each of her children, recording all their milestones in growth etc.  This is another example that she was not an uncaring mother as she has at times been portrayed.  I wonder if these were eventually given to each child and what has happened to them since.  ???
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 04, 2006, 05:57:23 AM
in the Royal collections.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on December 05, 2006, 10:14:33 PM
Prince Edward and his sister Princess Mary looking out the window of the Ophir, the ship that their parents' took the months-long cruise on. I think the picture was taken prior to the departure, as opposed to some photos taken when they returned.

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/image427PMDavidonOphirw.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lucien on December 12, 2006, 01:52:39 AM
Tonight on BBC4,"A Very British Coup",on the abdication of Edward VIII 70 years ago:

http://library.digiguide.com/lib/episode/569350

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on December 12, 2006, 05:25:52 AM
There has been quite a lot on the monarchy recently. Several last week, one on the Queen Mother a few weeks back and the David Starkey series. They clear make good television or why else would they show them? Any thoughts? :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: s66405h on December 12, 2006, 06:49:01 AM
Yes indeed they do make very good press.  I just saw the Princes William and Harry on the Today show here in America.  Someone interviewed them about the 10th aniversary concert/remeberence/celebration/memorial service they will give for their mother this summer.  They were delightful!  Prince Harry is just cute as ever and Prince William said brillient, which I think must be his favorite word!  Now I must really go and get ready for work. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: lexi4 on December 12, 2006, 06:04:28 PM
There has been quite a lot on the monarchy recently. Several last week, one on the Queen Mother a few weeks back and the David Starkey series. They clear make good television or why else would they show them? Any thoughts? :)

I just with the shows were avialable in the U.S. I would have enjoyed the one on the Queen Mother as well as Stakey.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Viscount on December 12, 2006, 07:16:50 PM
Tonight on BBC4,"A Very British Coup",on the abdication of Edward VIII 70 years ago:

http://library.digiguide.com/lib/episode/569350



Ive just watched the documentary.

To declare my interest that I have always been very pro-Edward VIII and thought he and Wallis had a rough deal..........

The documentary trys to turn the history books around a bit as it suggests that the Establishment ganged up on Edward and basically engineered a situation to force the King to abdicate as they didnt like his new and progressive (less stuffy) outlook on his Royal duties and life in general, as opposed to his father King George V.  They (Church & State) were frightened that things would change as he was young with modern and progressive views!

Also it shows that the Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin lied and decieved the King, making him feel that no-one would not accept a morganatic marriage to Wallis Simpson.  Records were shown to have been amended as apparently not all of the Dominions were against the idea of a morganatic marriage - which is very different to what history records.  Baldwin officially said at the time that all of the Dominions were unanimously against such a marriage - which was not true.  New Zealand was for it, and others "sat on the fence".  Also it shows just how much support from the public (of course they were in the dark - no 24hr media then!) there was for the King - many with the opinion he should marry who he wanted and how the public were very anti-Baldwin.  The suggestion was that the Establishment had engineered the Abdication to get a less independent thinking Prince Albert (later George VI) as he was someone to quote Lloyd George in the documentary "who would sign what they wanted" and "they now got he type of King they wanted".

When you think of the similarities 70 years later, a Prime Minister who lies... and a Prince of Wales is married to a divorcee (in a quasi-morganatic marriage) !

As Lord Deedes said at then end of the documentary on hearing the Abdication Speech............ "sad - was very sad".


The Viscount

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 12, 2006, 08:30:46 PM
I think "the establishment" was up in arms against the King and his American "sweetheart". The common people were not as shocked as others were led to believe by the move as Americans and Britons were already co-operating in politics and trade. An American Queen shouldn't be that shocking...However The force of opposition from the conservative part of the establishment who wanted "a depenable pair of hands" at the top was not to be understimated. In the end, they got what they wanted in George VI and Queen Elizabeth.  ???
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on December 14, 2006, 02:38:09 PM
I would add to Viscount that the "establishment" was very concerned not simply that Edward had "modern and progressive views" but that he seemed to have a total distaste for any tradition associated with his position and for putting his royal duties ahead of his personal life.  In the brief time he was King, one of the first things he did was go off on a cruise with Mrs. Simpson!  He cancelled engagements because he wanted to do other things and he did not attend to the necessary deskwork, or keep that work confidential.

I think there was quite a bit more to the eventual rejection of Edward by the government of the day than the determination of him to marry a twice divorced American and that he would have gone or been pushed out eventually anyway, which in hindsight was the best thing, IMO.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on December 14, 2006, 03:15:48 PM
They 'grey men at the palace" did not like Wallis!!!  It had nothing to do with her being an American.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 14, 2006, 08:38:38 PM
Well some do object her on her being a foreigner. . :(
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on December 15, 2006, 05:12:44 AM
Well "some" always objet to foreigners.  I am sure "some" objected to Princess Marina as their grandfathers did to did to Prince Albert and thei sons to Prince Phillip.


TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 15, 2006, 08:12:13 PM
Yes...and the fact that she was not born royal & divorced were other factors against her too... :(
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on December 16, 2006, 02:15:37 AM
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/david-1.jpg)

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/david1-1.jpg)

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/david4.jpg)

I can't help but admire David and Wallis, in spite of all of their everyday common flaws.  Two people, propelled into fame and history, who found each other and devoted a lifetime to living life as they chose to do.   In the end, the world was better because of it.


Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Keith on December 16, 2006, 01:59:53 PM
Yes...and the fact that she was not born royal & divorced were other factors against her too... :(

Considering two of her three sister-in-laws were non-royals, I don't see where that had anything to do with the opposition to her.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on December 16, 2006, 04:18:46 PM
They were "highly placed" non-royals though -- Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon and Lady Alice Montagu-Douglas-Scott were not simply girls off the street.  They were "well bred" titled young British ladies.  Wallis was twice-divorced "with two husbands living" and was a rather brash American lady who either had no idea, or chose to ignore, protocols surrounding the royal family.

In the last photo Cunarder has posted, for the first time I can see a resemblance between the Duke and his father King George V -- something about the eyes.  :o 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Keith on December 16, 2006, 06:18:27 PM
I don't think anyone questions the divorced part.

I've read that Marina refered to Alice & Elizabeth as those "common scot girls", so to some they were'nt that highly placed.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on December 16, 2006, 07:04:45 PM
Well, they probably were 'common' to someone whose mother was an Imperial Highness. They were still many steps up the ladder from Wallis though--the daughter of a Duke (Buccleuch) and an Earl (Strathmore).

Here's a photograph of the couple by the famed photographer Philippe Halsmann. He had a tradition of getting subjects to jump for him--they were later compiled into the Jump Book. Of all the men who jumped for Mr. Halsman, the Duke was the only male to remove his shoes.

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/ab_31.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: s66405h on December 16, 2006, 07:44:15 PM
Here’s a link to the cover of Time in 1937 for

Wallis Warfield Simpson, Woman of the Year
http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19370104,00.html

and the link to the article.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,762329,00.html
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on December 17, 2006, 05:53:51 AM
The Prime Minister provoked the entire crisis, which otherwise might never have arisen as a crisis, by making publicly in the House of Commons the first official statement that King Edward was actually resolved to marry Mrs. Simpson (TIME, Dec. 14). This fact had been ascertained as a "scoop" personally by William Randolph Hearst, but had it not been made official. Edward VIII might simply have done nothing until after he was crowned May 12, and then (Mrs. Simpson having meanwhile obtained her absolute divorce on April 27), His Majesty had only to marry her and she would have been Queen.

I think the highlighted quote above from 1937 Time Magazine Woman of the Year Story backs up the point I have made along; The D & D of Windsor were not that smart.

OR

Edward did not want to be KING.

I sticky by my hypothesis; The D & D of Windsor were not that smart.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on December 17, 2006, 08:15:25 AM
Well, even if Edward had waited till after his coronation, he would still have had to announce his intention to marry to his Cabinet, wouldn't he? And even if Wallis was divorced from Ernest Simpson by then it wouldn't have made much difference - it would still have provoked a constitutional crises. I certainly agree with you though, TB - they weren't smart at all.

And Grace, I see what you mean - I can see the resemblance too!  :o
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: s66405h on December 17, 2006, 04:23:51 PM
So who are the smart English Royals of the 20th Century?  My vote goes to King Edward VII and Queen Elizabeth II then King George V in that order.  Queen Victoria was barely into that century and I think too emotional to be smart.  But what do I know?  I live in the US.  Queen Elizabeth is the only British Monarch alive in my lifetime.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on December 17, 2006, 04:28:04 PM
Depends on your definition of smart - intelligent, or 'savvy'?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on December 17, 2006, 05:49:28 PM
Edward VII had more intelligence than he was ever given credit for during his life time.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: s66405h on December 17, 2006, 06:15:14 PM
Maybe a combination of intelligence and savy both!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: lexi4 on December 17, 2006, 06:15:45 PM
Well, even if Edward had waited till after his coronation, he would still have had to announce his intention to marry to his Cabinet, wouldn't he? And even if Wallis was divorced from Ernest Simpson by then it wouldn't have made much difference - it would still have provoked a constitutional crises. I certainly agree with you though, TB - they weren't smart at all.

And Grace, I see what you mean - I can see the resemblance too!  :o

Prince Lieven,
Could you please explain for me what type of constitutional crisis it would have provoked? Thank you.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on December 17, 2006, 06:25:13 PM
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/wallis-1.jpg)

Wallis visits David's grave at Frogmore in 1973, with Mountbatten and the Duke of Kent.

I thought there was only a mausoleum at Frogmore, but are there other burial plots like David's (and now Wallis') as well?

Does anyone have a photo of either or both inscriptions?   I would love to be able to see them.  Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 17, 2006, 07:29:55 PM
Edward VII had more intelligence than he was ever given credit for during his life time.

TampaBay
Perhaps there was a reason for that ? The man was a bimbo, Wallis had the only smarts in that family.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on December 17, 2006, 07:44:41 PM
Sir Robert, Lord Hall

I was refering to Edward VII husband of Queen Aleandra not Edward VIII Duke of Windsor husband of Wallis!

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 17, 2006, 07:59:04 PM
Oh dearie me, I am so sorry. The topic of this thread led me astray into sloppy reading.
 Of course EVII was pretty sharp cookie, if a sodden philanderer of the highest degree.
Yet, my assessment of the Windsor pair remains, pond scum of the gene pool.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on December 18, 2006, 09:00:01 AM
Well, even if Edward had waited till after his coronation, he would still have had to announce his intention to marry to his Cabinet, wouldn't he? And even if Wallis was divorced from Ernest Simpson by then it wouldn't have made much difference - it would still have provoked a constitutional crises. I certainly agree with you though, TB - they weren't smart at all.

And Grace, I see what you mean - I can see the resemblance too!  :o

Prince Lieven,
Could you please explain for me what type of constitutional crisis it would have provoked? Thank you.

Basically, as a constitutional monarch, Edward had to follow the advice of his ministers. So if they advised him not to marry Mrs Simpson, but he persisted in the idea, Baldwin's government would have resigned, which would have caused a crises, since it would mean that the elected representatives of the people had been forced out of office by the unelected king. And immediate general election would have been neccessary, and it's highly unlikely that any resulting government would have been amenable to the idea of Wallis being queen.

I think I mentioned before, I find it distinctly hard to understand just how much people can forgive if someone has 'style' . . . personal opinion I guess.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 18, 2006, 09:14:19 AM
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but I was wondering how much did Edward's connection to the German Nazi party have to do with the British government's strong insistence on his abdication, rather than his plans to marry Mrs Simpson? At least how much did the former make the situation completely "unforgivable"?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 18, 2006, 09:46:47 AM
I think David's connection to Hitler came after the abdication, actually. BTW, there were a lot of upper-class British who sympathised with the NS cause before the war began.
EVIII made his huge error in attempting to defy  "his" government.  That would constitute a crises and possibly an eventual abolishment of the monarchy. The monarchy is there to legitimise the government and it's actions. If the monarch fails to do that, his role is in constiturional doubt. It could have cast doubt on even the reason for it's existence.
 I think Wallis saw this and perhaps remained steadfast  with him knowing that  the poor man was doomed no matter what decision he took.  Abdicate and take the money ! He was lousy at being king anyway so why not party for 50 years ?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on December 18, 2006, 03:13:20 PM
At some point during his reign I think he made a speech advocating closer relations with Germany.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on December 18, 2006, 05:00:56 PM
From the bbc site:

"But a document which stayed in the private papers of the then prime minister, Stanley Baldwin, for 13 years before even Buckingham Palace became aware of it, raises doubts about whether Wallis Simpson was the schemer of popular perception.

The paper, only released in 2000, is a declaration, signed by Mrs Simpson in the final days before the abdication, that "she has abandoned any interest in marrying His Majesty".

She found Edward's dependence upon her burdensome and claustrophobic, writing to her uncle: "How can a woman be a whole empire to a man?" "

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 18, 2006, 06:26:52 PM
I do not for a minute consider Wallis a "schemer". Rather she let events take their course and made the best of it. She certainly took the best advantage of the circumstances and I think most of us would do the same. Just my opinion, I like the gal ! [still, can't abide David though]
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 18, 2006, 07:32:01 PM
Wallis enjoyed the ride with David and never had any intention of marrying him after things seemed hopeless. She would like to remain friends with the King (like Camilla had done so with Charles before and after Diana's death), but it seems david was determined to have her with or with the throne. Wallis begged out and escaped to France and hope to return somehow after the storm die down perhaps as his mistress. The abdication was entirely David's fault... :-[
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Father Alban on December 18, 2006, 07:39:53 PM
With respect, I see that it was actually the fault of those who wanted to see the Duke of Windsor's unusual style of Kingship brought to an end. Edward VIII systematically upset key figures in the British Establishment. He had a sworn enemy in the Archbishop of Canterbury, the very pious and fierce Cosmo Lang. He had upset the Court by making dramatic changes to it. He disliked the debutante presentations, he scrapped Sandringham Time and generally tried to modernise the Court. He had upset various members of the Government and indeed, the Prime Minister, by making promises to the working classes with whom he was extremely popular. His famous quote of "Something must be done" was taken by the British working classes as a glimmer of hope and a promise of change that Stanley Baldwin and his Cabinet had no intention of honouring. He had upset the editor of The Times and many other important figures who would eventually force him out with Mrs Simpson as their excuse. In my opinion, Edward VIII was ousted in a coup and had the British people been allowed to vote on the matter, I have no doubt that we would have seen a King Edward and a Queen Wallis.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: lexi4 on December 18, 2006, 07:48:24 PM
Well, even if Edward had waited till after his coronation, he would still have had to announce his intention to marry to his Cabinet, wouldn't he? And even if Wallis was divorced from Ernest Simpson by then it wouldn't have made much difference - it would still have provoked a constitutional crises. I certainly agree with you though, TB - they weren't smart at all.

And Grace, I see what you mean - I can see the resemblance too!  :o

Could you please explain for me what type of constitutional crisis it would have provoked? Thank you.

Basically, as a constitutional monarch, Edward had to follow the advice of his ministers. So if they advised him not to marry Mrs Simpson, but he persisted in the idea, Baldwin's government would have resigned, which would have caused a crises, since it would mean that the elected representatives of the people had been forced out of office by the unelected king. And immediate general election would have been neccessary, and it's highly unlikely that any resulting government would have been amenable to the idea of Wallis being queen.

I think I mentioned before, I find it distinctly hard to understand just how much people can forgive if someone has 'style' . . . personal opinion I guess.

Thank you very much. I guess a lot had changed since the days of Henry VII.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Father Alban on December 18, 2006, 07:54:11 PM
Quote
Possibly...But it would have upset the "establishment". Those people in gray suits were still around during the time of Diana...

If popular myth is to be believed, the "men in grey suits" are still very active. More is coming out about the premiership of Harold Wilson. Having listened to "The Wilson Tapes", he believed that the "men in grey suits" were trying to bring about a coup to topple him with Lord Mountbatten at the head. The coup attempt apparantly went so far as the Queen Mother recieving a visit from "the men in grey suits" who asked if she would convince her daughter to take full and absolute power. It depends on who and what you believe but it's my belief that the men in grey suits are not a secret band of high ranking courtiers but anyone who works in a traditional "department" of the British establishment. Indeed, the establishment still exists today but whether they could oust a King as they did in 1936 will remain to be seen I suppose.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 18, 2006, 07:58:04 PM
Well...As late as the begining of this century, Prince Andrew had been complaining of having to lie to the public. Diana often said about "the establishment" is out to get her because she was a rebel and overturn the status quo. Indeed who is running the Royal Family ? it seems not themselves really... ???
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Father Alban on December 18, 2006, 08:04:41 PM
Well, to ask the question, "Who is running the Royal Family?" would suggest that they are not an ordinary family and as the Princess Royal has said many times, she sees the Royal Family as an ordinary family in an extraordinary position. As a private family, I would say that the Duke of Edinburgh as the "man of the house" would have the respect of his immediate family. As a public family, I would suggest a combination of ministers, PR people and the Queen herself "run" the family. I think it's a very complicated issue and one that isn't easily explained in my opinion.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on December 19, 2006, 03:14:06 AM
The Royal Family is a "branch of government" or one of the "cogs" in a political system called "Constitutional Monarchy".  Therefore, I am sure "someone" is running the public side.  Even George Bush and Tony Blair have "advisers".

TampaBay

 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 19, 2006, 04:31:08 AM
However it seems that they have a strong influence in the decision making of the monarchy. Diana had said "they" were very much against her. Similarly David did not have the blessiong of "the establishment" and they gang up (with politians) to prevent the possibility of a "Queen Wallis"...even though it is now discovered that "the people" were not that united in their decision against Wallis & David.  ???
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on December 19, 2006, 04:54:58 AM
Wallis of Baltimore was not mallable  but Elizabeth (the Queen Mother) was.

TampaBay

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on December 19, 2006, 07:43:24 AM
In some things she certainly wasn't - the Queen Mother I mean. She certainly wasn't malleable over the issue of giving Wallis 'HRH' status.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: CHRISinUSA on December 19, 2006, 08:33:53 AM
Well, to ask the question, "Who is running the Royal Family?" would suggest that they are not an ordinary family and as the Princess Royal has said many times, she sees the Royal Family as an ordinary family in an extraordinary position. As a private family, I would say that the Duke of Edinburgh as the "man of the house" would have the respect of his immediate family. As a public family, I would suggest a combination of ministers, PR people and the Queen herself "run" the family. I think it's a very complicated issue and one that isn't easily explained in my opinion.

The term "establishment" originally meant anyone who was in the direct employ or service of the monarch.  Back when the king directly governed Britain, this would have included Government, Parliament, the courts, courtiers, the military, even local Sherrifs, Lord Leuitenants, etc.  Since most of the leadership roles of each of these institutions were traditionally held by members of the aristocracy, the term was generally used to apply to the upper classes / the ruling class / etc.

The term endoures today because althought it is not exercised by her, state authority is still officially vested in the Queen and thus most national institutions still function in her name.   However, originally the monarch directed the establishment.  Today, under a constitutional monarchy, it is the establishment who directs the monarch. 

The Queen travels abroad usually at the request of the Government.  She receives state guests only at Government request.  The words she speaks publically are usually approved by the Government.  The Government gives its approval to the bestowal of all titles and most honors - it is also consulted on most every major move the court makes. 

It is not quite as obvious to the public as - say - the restrictions placed on the Emperor of Japan by the Imperial Household Agency, but there are in fact similarities between the two institutions.

So - the men in grey suits - the people running the Royal Family - are a wide array of courtiers, government ministers, Church of England officials, etc. who must be consulted and give consent to a large number of actions the Royal Family undertakes.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on December 19, 2006, 08:34:35 AM
Here's a link to an interesting discussion on the British Royal Message Boards:

BBC documentary: ' Abdication: A Very British Coup'
http://members3.boardhost.com/Warholm/msg/1165853246.html

It rather ties into what we're discussing right now.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on December 19, 2006, 11:26:09 AM
In some things she certainly wasn't - the Queen Mother I mean. She certainly wasn't malleable over the issue of giving Wallis 'HRH' status.

Which is exactly how the palace old guard wished her to feel.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on December 19, 2006, 12:52:30 PM
This is off topic, but d'you think the Queen Mother was the type of woman to feel how others wished her to feel?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 20, 2006, 02:24:23 AM
Well...Cookie wasn't really fond of Wallis in the first place. It need no egged on to convince her to side against "that woman" ! However her heartfelt sympathy for Wallis during the twilight years and the private flowers she sent were her own iniciatve.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on December 20, 2006, 04:45:48 AM
This is off topic, but d'you think the Queen Mother was the type of woman to feel how others wished her to feel?

When it came to people (senior courtiers) who could advance her and her husbands position, YES!!!

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on December 20, 2006, 05:52:16 AM
But if it came to advancing her and her husband's position, then surely it was how she felt, not how she was being told to feel? Am I making any sense?  ;D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on December 20, 2006, 07:44:00 PM
But if it came to advancing her and her husband's position, then surely it was how she felt, not how she was being told to feel? Am I making any sense?  ;D

Prince Lieven,

You always make sense!!! 

The seniors courtiers wanted Elizabeth of Strathmore to be Quenn of England because 98% of the time she thought like they did  and the other 2% she was malleable as in ...she knew which side her bread was butter on and who did the buttering!!

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 20, 2006, 08:18:07 PM
The windsor men admired strength in their women... ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on December 21, 2006, 06:40:02 AM
But if it came to advancing her and her husband's position, then surely it was how she felt, not how she was being told to feel? Am I making any sense?  ;D

Prince Lieven,

You always make sense!!! 

The seniors courtiers wanted Elizabeth of Strathmore to be Quenn of England because 98% of the time she thought like they did  and the other 2% she was malleable as in ...she knew which side her bread was butter on and who did the buttering!!

TampaBay

Thanks TB, I understand and agree.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ashdean on December 22, 2006, 04:50:17 AM
Edward VII had more intelligence than he was ever given credit for during his life time.

TampaBay
Indeed he did....The currene Queen is also very savvy a trait inherited from her mother AND her paternal grandmother..neither of whom lacked backbone..In that sense Wallis fitted in with that pattern a strong woman..
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Alix of Wales had Panache on January 01, 2007, 11:32:19 AM
Pardon me, a newbie, but I'm going to take this thread in another direction.  Reading over the thread I run into this:


(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/bib2.jpg)


Good lord! What a specimen! ;D What about the one with the strawberrys hanging of it!!!!  ::)
 ;)

This can't be a necklace!!! It cries kokoshnik doesn't it?  Being the strong-willed, fashion savy person she was, I'm sure Wallis wore this kokoshnik-style.  Is there such a picture in existence?  I doubt it.  Probably used it as a play bauble to make the pugs lunge.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: CountessKate on January 01, 2007, 12:19:34 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/cfarnon/WS.jpg)

She wore it as a necklace.  She wore clips occasionally to give a tiara effect, but on a very muted scale.  Generally she seemed to avoid the tiara effect, perhaps to ensure she wasn't seen as competing with the conventional royal image.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: s66405h on January 01, 2007, 12:40:00 PM
 8) What a cool picture 8)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on January 01, 2007, 01:17:44 PM
Pardon me, a newbie, but I'm going to take this thread in another direction.  Reading over the thread I run into this:

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/bib2.jpg)


This can't be a necklace!!! It cries kokoshnik doesn't it?  Being the strong-willed, fashion savy person she was, I'm sure Wallis wore this kokoshnik-style.  Is there such a picture in existence?  I doubt it.  Probably used it as a play bauble to make the pugs lunge.


It is a necklace!!! If you study photos of Wallis, you will see she favored bib necklaces and chunky choker necklaces.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on January 01, 2007, 01:19:45 PM
Pardon me, a newbie, but I'm going to take this thread in another direction.  Reading over the thread I run into this:


Please go ahead and do so.  I am dying to get into further discussion about the style of Wallis!

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Alix of Wales had Panache on January 01, 2007, 03:06:21 PM
Seeing this picture, the respect I had forWallis's style sense went considerably up.  Thank you kindly,
CountessKate.

Of course only with a dress lacking distractive patterns could a necklace like that appear snazzy.  All I kept thinking of was yuck!

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ashdean on January 01, 2007, 04:08:10 PM
Wallis 's clothes were usually very simple to prove an effective background for her stupendous jewels....
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: lexi4 on January 01, 2007, 04:25:36 PM
CountessKate,
I love that photo of Wallis! She was quite striking.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on January 01, 2007, 08:35:56 PM
JMO, but the parsley and ketchup bib necklace would have made a far better sun visor than necklace. 

Just think how fabulous Wallis would have looked playing tennis in the South of France wearing a shortened version of her monkey or lobster dress with a ruby, emerald and gold visor.  It begins to conjure a rather gruesome image at first, but I think she may have been able to pull it off.  ;) ;D :o :P 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on January 02, 2007, 05:24:04 AM
EE,

Keep'em coming!!! 

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: royal_netherlands on January 02, 2007, 07:54:26 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/82349_129264.jpg)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/82358_129273.jpg)

RN
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on January 02, 2007, 12:09:09 PM
(http://k79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/ddw2.jpg)

I've always wondered if the photographer intended any symbolism with the wire "loop" in this photo.

This was taken while she was still Mrs Simpson, but involved with the King.  Sort of remind's one of a hangman's noose, doesn't it?


(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/ddw.jpg)

Wallis and David in their apartment at the Waldorf, New York.  From the televised interview with Edward R. Murrow. Neither came across as particularly comfortable in this interview.  Wallis, especially, with her high-pitched and rather loud voice.  The most awkward part of it to watch was Murrow's question "have either of you ever thought of what MIGHT have been.?"  A reference of course to the abdication.   They both looked at each other in silence, David folded his hands on his knees and pitched forward, stumbling a few times before the words came to him.  "Well, Mr Murrow, <clears his throat> I think you must be referring to the events of 19 hundred and 36.  Well I must say most emphatically that the answer is no."   Wallis, during his lengthy response, mimicked his position, hands on knees, and pitched forward to stare at the floor.
It was obvious to see her discomfort, that she knew the question had come out of nowhere, landed in David's lap, and even though he was talking, that the eyes of the world were concentrating on her. Murrow changed the subject, and Wallis gave a demonstation of her skill of playing ball and jacks.     It was one interview I'm sure they both regretted granting.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/ddw1.jpg)

Sometimes it's better not to be King.  :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on January 02, 2007, 03:16:52 PM
Very interesting, Cunarder.  The Murrow interview comes across as very awkward indeed.  Edward seems to have mistaken the question "have either of you ever thought of what MIGHT have been?" for a suggestion that he was not happy with his decision, when everybody knew he was.  Even so, if, as he claimed, he never even thought about the enormous event of his abdication, I'm afraid it doesn't say a great deal about him as an individual with any depth.  I don't know why he even granted interviews, unless he just wanted to talk about his garden or his latest cravat...

Honestly, it was a good thing he went, in my opinion.  :(
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 04, 2007, 08:49:53 PM
I agree...

Love the bib necklace too !  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on January 04, 2007, 09:43:50 PM
I've always wondered if the photographer intended any symbolism with the wire "loop" in this photo.
This was taken while she was still Mrs Simpson, but involved with the King.  Sort of remind's one of a hangman's noose, doesn't it?

Oh, how very macabre.  I prefer to think of it as a representation of the old Vaudeville cane that would hook the performers off the stage before they out wore their welcome.  :P 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on January 07, 2007, 04:11:54 PM
A letter to the Editor in Time magazine from someone who was not a fan of the Duke:

Posted Monday, Mar. 8, 1937
Edward & Emeralds

Sirs:

While I greatly enjoy reading your weekly pungent comments, I must be allowed to tell you that some of your conclusions are utterly and entirely wrong. ... At least 95% of the British Empire are utterly disgusted with Edward VIII. . . . He allowed himself to be shown tied to his mistress' apron strings in public and was absolutely at her feet, not only in his private life but was influenced by her in public affairs, especially foreign politics. His behaviour to his mother, Queen Mary, is notoriously bad and was instigated by Mrs. Simpson. His professions of great concern for the unemployed which were used by his clique of cronies, headed by Esmond Harmsworth, as the weapon to upset the Government were rather insincere when compared with the facts. He gave £10, ($50) on his Welsh visit, for the unemployed. On the other hand, he dismissed hundreds of employees at Balmoral & Sandringham, and sold off everything on these properties which was salable, and with the money thus saved and raised, he bought priceless emeralds for Mrs. Simpson. These emeralds were the property of Queen Alexandra who left them to Princess Victoria, who in turn sold them to Garrard's of Bond Street, where King Edward bought them. . . .

You must remember he cost the British nation a lot of money and they do not choose to see their money go into the pockets of Mrs. Simpson. Foreign newspaper correspondents, especially Americans, have the habit of mixing entirely too much with their own kind, and instead of getting the point of view of the man in the street, they absorb each other's impressions. Inevitably they tend to make a hero of the man or woman who gives them news and this is a great error. . . .

While I am an American citizen, I have many relations in England, and am in touch with British reactions very closely. My brother is a member of the Reform Club of London, where naturally he meets many of the most prominent British politicians. As to the emeralds, I should have added that Garrard's the jewelers who bought them from Princess Victoria, sent them to Cartier's in Paris, and it was actually Cartier's who made the sale, on behalf of Garrard's to King Edward. As I said before, these stones are very large and magnificent, but have many flaws. The lady who gave me this information, is a personal friend of Queen Mary and members of the Royal Family, but I cannot tell you her name.

May I suggest to you that the lady who will be very much in the eye of society, if not the public, will be the Hon. Mrs. Ronald Greville, a very rich lady, who has always been very much with the new King & Queen (indeed their honeymoon was spent at Polesden Lacey, her country house) and who is supposed to have named the Queen as her eventual heiress.

E. A. L. BENNETT Paris, France

[I posted the part about the emerald jewels in the Windsor Jewels section but this is the whole letter.] He did, it seems, let go many servants on those 2 named properties (and during the Depression), in marked contrast to his father and grandfather who were much-loved stewards. GV was even referred to in many tributes as the 'Squire of Sandringham'.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: lexi4 on January 07, 2007, 06:16:18 PM
Interesting letter. I notice the writer is from Paris.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2007, 07:25:26 PM
Yes ! An American in Paris.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on February 04, 2007, 07:24:15 AM


(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/0002.jpg)

The Duchess in the 1950's.

 

(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/palimpsest/royal/31975374.jpg)


Camilla's necklace looks like something Wallis would wear.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on February 04, 2007, 02:15:37 PM
Judging from the above two pics, I think Camilla pulls it off better than Wallis.   The Duchess of Windsor dressed for attention.  In her own words, "I am nothing to look at.  I'm not a beautiful woman.  The least I can do is attempt to dress better than anyone else in the room."   

The Duchess of Cornwall, while not classically "beautiful," seems to have a confidence about her image that maybe Wallis lacked.  In all the pictures of her posted here, I've never viewed Camilla as anything but an elegant, and sometimes understated, consort to Charles.  Everyone has hits and misses now and then, and if she does, it seems that Camilla errs on the side of good taste.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 04, 2007, 07:52:55 PM
I beg to differ. Wallis was deemed more of a clothes house and elegant woman, while Camilla seemed not very comfortable with elegant clothes. In fact she looked better in daywear than in pearls and designer gowns (unlike Princess Diana).  ???
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on February 04, 2007, 09:45:20 PM
I'm probably too biased and have read too much about Wallis to now think of her as "elegant."   Her clothing may have been, but I can think of many other adjectives to more accurately describe her, some flattering, some less so.    Fashion and jewelry were her passion, and on the surface, she worn them well.

I don't know enough about Camilla to judge her as critically as Wallis, so I probably shouldn't compare the two, to be fair.

But I like what I see so far.  :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 05, 2007, 12:55:43 AM
Indeed ! Wallis was elegant personalified in her clothes & jewels (a fashion icon like Jackie O, Audrey Hepburn and Diana Vreeland). Camilla was lovely in her natural looking dress and radiated a relaxed look. She does managed to look smart after much prep, however I doubt she would be the next clothes hourse for the House of Windsor.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ashdean on February 05, 2007, 11:24:24 AM


(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/0002.jpg)

The Duchess in the 1950's.

 


Camilla's necklace looks like something Wallis would wear.

TampaBay

The necklace Wallis wears in that picture was part of her large collection of costume jewelry..
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 05, 2007, 07:04:25 PM
Wally does looked glorious !  ;D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on February 05, 2007, 08:11:27 PM
Well, each to their own, I guess, but I don't like this pose for Wallis at all - it doesn't suit her in my opinion - it's too "debutante".  She looks as immaculate as ever in it but is too mature for this style of photo and I don't think she looks particularly comfortable in it either.  ??? 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 06, 2007, 03:51:00 AM
I think Wallis has enough Pazzaz to pull this through.  ;D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: damaskrose on February 08, 2007, 11:50:43 PM
How wonderful to find there is still so much interest in the romance of the century! I hope you all have read Greg King's wonderful work "The uncommon life of The Duchess of Windsor" I can assure you all,whether you have great or even remote interest in this couple,this book makes fascinating reading.The photo's so generously provided are a real treat.I'm just hoping against all odds that caustic comments regarding this couple can be kept to a minimum.They were villified beyond reason during their lifetimes.Greg's book shows the other side of their story,while not sugar coating anything,his myriad sources  are  well researched. Thanks to all here who have contributed.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 09, 2007, 04:34:32 AM
I think the Windsors does have postive aspects too. Too many tried to focus on their faults. As one said "Thank God for Wally to take him away, otherwise we will have a very contraversal king...instead of a very reliable one."... ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: damaskrose on February 09, 2007, 04:36:36 PM
Great point Eric,He was controversial  for his time.A modern king,who would do away with the trappings of what he deemed an antiquated system.Not a popular stand.I too,have always been very surprised at how quick so many fall to that line of "she did us a favor"In truth,Edward the VIII was never given a chance,not only as king but in any other role of merit.It would have been in everyone's interest to let this man serve his country in some capacity,that would have allowed him to return .He died with England on his lipsThey allowed his corpse to return ,and thankfully allowed his wife to also be with him at Frogmore.I personally feel he was treated horribly,it grieves me that even today so many are so bitter. :'(
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on February 09, 2007, 10:03:11 PM
Of course he had a chance, damaskrose - he was Prince of Wales for 25 years (and was very popular during that time).  He was king for less than one year and the consensus is that he didn't do a very good job during that short time.  Probably he did have talents and abilities but they were certainly not of a royal kind.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on February 10, 2007, 04:22:14 AM
Grace - You have summed up the life and times of the former King Edward VIII perfectly... and oh, so diplomatically.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on February 10, 2007, 06:51:13 AM
Like all the Windsor men (George V, George VI and Charles), the right wife for Edward VIII would have made him or broke him. 

David chose the right wife to "make" him but not the right wife to "to make" a successful King of England.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: damaskrose on February 10, 2007, 09:52:56 AM
Certainly,You have solid opinion.I have stated mine.He WAS a very popular king(which begs the question,If he was so dreadful why did so many love him and find him perfectly suited to the position?) ,and did an excellent job as Govenor of the Bahamas.There were machinations by the monarchy that prevented him from being what he wanted to be.Does that surprise anyone?Stanley Baldwin was instrumental in the abdication ,as well as his own mother and father.I respect your opinions and you are most certainly entitled to yours.However I have deeply researched this historical event,and have based my opinion on facts,not feelings.please don't let me get the impression that I am not entitled to it,Thank you :) DM
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on February 10, 2007, 10:33:38 AM
DA Rose,

I in no way differ from your opinion that David had what it takes to be a great constitutional King and was an excellent Prince of Wales.  Falling in love with Wallis in the 1930s complicated everything.  If he were the POW today and fell in love with Wallis there would be no problems with the marriage as Chuck & Cammie have proved.

TampaBay

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on February 10, 2007, 12:19:02 PM
I don't think the former King Edward VIII did much to enhance any affection previously felt for him within the British populace when it was discovered he, along with his wife, met Adolf Hitler.   It was said that the Duke of Windsor discussed with Hitler the possibility of his being returned to the British throne when the Nazis occupied Britain.   There was a TV documentary transmitted in the UK not so long ago which recalled this episode.

In view of the suffering inflicted on many families in Great Britain as a result of Hitler's facist, colonialist policies, it is not difficult to see why negative emotions towards the Duke and Duchess of Windsor remain to this day.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: damaskrose on February 11, 2007, 04:29:12 AM
It was a bad decision ,they admitted as much.Wallis herself was very uncomfortable during the visit,even frightened on occasion.The Windsors regretted making this trip.According to Dudley Forwood (the Duke's equerry at this time)reasons for it were two -fold.One,Edward felt that he had over the years, established close ties in Germany,as well as May's tutelage(he considered German his mother's tongue)Speaking the language fluently .He honestly thought he might have influence in regard to staving off a conflict.Two,,this was probably the closest thing Wallis would ever get to a state visit.In Edward of Sussex's documentary,Edward on Edward,Edward of Sussex states himself that there was not then ,nor now ,any evidence whatso ever that Edward the VIII was in any way a Nazi sympathizer.It was a press inaccurancy that indeed did the couple great harm.Edward VIII was greatly distressed by the out come of this visit as his mission not only failed,but the event would shadow them forever.-DM
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on February 11, 2007, 07:30:03 AM
It was indeed a gross error of judgement, Damaskrose.   Unfortunatley errors of this scale, committed by a person in a position such as that held by the Duke of Windsor, cannot be forgiven.

Along with great privilege goes great responsibility.

I can see you have studied the subject in depth.   It would be interesting to know your position on that ongoing mystery - the Duchess's Jewels are Missing?

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 11, 2007, 07:38:58 AM
Who is Edward of Sussex ?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on February 11, 2007, 07:58:23 AM
Who is Edward of Sussex ?

Edward of Wessex?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: damaskrose on February 11, 2007, 08:18:16 AM
Yes,Wessex! ;DWrong sex!!!Thank you Robert and Tampa.The mystery of the Robbery!Well,There is a a fascinating story,Tsaria.I have recently heard again that the uncut emeralds were in her (Wallis)traveling jewelry case.It was described a a small trunk really.Why was that trunk left out,when it was offered to the Windsors,the use of the strong room located at the estate?Another severe error in judgement?It is compelling. ???-DM
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on February 11, 2007, 12:13:44 PM
Why would Wallis have been carrying uncut emeralds around with her though? And why where they still uncut? Given Wallis' mania for jewels I thought she would have had them set.

There was certainly something fishy about the whole business! :) Could it have been an insurance scam? I recall reading that some items listed as stolen turned up in the auction!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 11, 2007, 12:28:26 PM
Good question, Eddieboy.  Especially as their favourite jewelers was Cartier in Paris. Seems any uncut & unset stones would go to them.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on February 11, 2007, 12:56:54 PM
Since we are now approaching 30 pages on the 'Duke and Duchess of Windsor', perhaps the time has come to open a separate thread devoted to the missing jewels.   This can be widened to include the 'Jewels of the Duchess of Windsor'.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 11, 2007, 07:46:43 PM
I agree...That seems prudent.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on June 02, 2007, 07:06:53 AM
I tried to find a old thread about Wallis to bump up and could not.  So I decided to start a new thread for Martyn and Herr Kasier to post and share their discussion on Wallis.

Please post any pictures you care to share as I and many others never tire of discussions on the style of the Duchess of Windsor.

Martyn and Herr Kasier, I thank you in advance for your support and efforts on this thread!

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on June 02, 2007, 09:34:15 AM
Quote
So I decided to start a new thread for Martyn and Herr Kasier to post and share their discussion on Wallis.

Which thread have theese been happening on?  :D

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on June 02, 2007, 12:25:51 PM
I enjoy reading all the wonderful threads on this site, but the subject of Wallis or David is like the tinkling of a dinner bell arousing a 10-year old tabbie to a can of Photobucket tuna.    Sorry if some of these are repeats, but I can't remember what has been posted.   Wallis, the "Almost-Was" Royal.   

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/wallis6.jpg)

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/wallis1.jpg)
On the Nahlin cruise.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/wallis-2.jpg)

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/wallis4.jpg)
Imagine Queen Mary photographed napping at Balmoral or Sandringham in this
manner.  She wouldn't have put herself in the position, but it's a bit fun, (and
with a shudder!) just to imagine it.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/wallis2.jpg)

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/Wallis7.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 03:09:17 AM
Ok, here goes.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/WallisDavid4.jpg)

At Balmoral, I think........
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 03:10:18 AM
A lovely one of David and Wallis.....

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/WallisDavid5.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 03:11:29 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/WallisDavid6.jpg)

The duchess had such style..........looking fabulous in her ruby and diamond parure.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 03:13:35 AM
Wearing her fabulous amethyst bib necklace......and possibly an occasion at which to wear a tiara, if she had wished???  ;)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/WallisandDavid2.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 03:16:02 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Wallisandrubybangle.jpg)

One of my favourite photos of Wallis.  I love the evening dress and her ruby and diamond bangle is a jewel worth coveting..........the other jewels aren't bad either!!!  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 03:17:36 AM
She looks so elegant in this photo, meriting the reputation of being one of the best-dressed women of her time...........

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Wallisinbibnecklace.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 03:20:54 AM
The wedding day at the Chateau de Cande.  Wallis looking lovely in her pale blue Mainbocher ensemble and with the wedding gift to end all wedding gifts - the sapphire and diamond bracelet........

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/WallisDavid.jpg)     (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/WallisandDavidweddingday.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 03:22:35 AM
The wedding day at the Chateau de Cande.  Wallis looking lovely in her pale blue Mainbocher ensemble and with the wedding gift to end all wedding gifts - the sapphire and diamond bracelet........

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/WallisDavid.jpg)     (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/WallisandDavidweddingday.jpg)

Oh and I forgot - Wallis wearing another peice that had such great sentimental significance for her - the diamond chain bracelet set with the latin crosses, another of my favourite pieces of hers....
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 03:24:21 AM
Wallis wearing her emerlad engagement ring in its original incarnation and looking just as elegant in day wear as in evening dress......

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Wallis.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 03:30:18 AM
Wallis's tiara, as discussed in the thread concerning the Duchess of Cornwall.  Quite a small jewel and veey contemporary, this piece did not survive in her collection.  Tiaras were not to her taste as this is the only example that I have ever seen of her wearing this jewel and she did not retain it as part of her collection.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Wallistiara.jpg)  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Wallisintiara.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 03:32:47 AM
The lovely sapphire and diamond jarretiere bracelet - David's wedding gift to Wallis. I wonder if it made up for the lack of the HRH status that he had asked for her, or the small scale of their wedding celebrations?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Wallissapphirebracelet.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 03:34:58 AM
Wallis's amethyst bib necklace........

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Wallisamethystnecklace.jpg)

I love the combination of amethyst and turgouise in this piece; the small diamonds add a touch of lightness and glitter to the overall effect........
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 03:36:50 AM
The bracelet of latin crosses;each one marking an occasion of importance for the couple.......I love this jewel - so personal but so beautiful and simple.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/WallisLatincrossbracelet.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 03:38:41 AM
The wonderful bib necklace set with rubies and emeralds that Wallis is wearing with that pale satin evening gown.......

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Wallissbibnecklace.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 03:45:10 AM
And my favourite pieces in Wallis's collection - the canary diamond clips and earrings.  Simply mouth-watering...... :)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Wallisscanarydiamonds.jpg)

I hope that these images whet your appetite for wallis, Tampa.  I will be away for a week so won't be able to contribute for a while.  I wish that the old threads hadn't disappeared, but thanks for creating this one Tampa...... :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on June 03, 2007, 05:07:24 AM
Martyn has no permission to leave for a week.   How could he spring it on us like this.   First he tantalises, and just when we are captured... away he goes.   CRUEL.
I am not surprised that, in the space of less than 24 hours, this thread is onto its second page.   I have a hunch there will be many, many more.

I bag the canary diamonds - divine is the word that springs to mind.

I have a beautiful replica of the crosses bracelet, generously gifted to me by a former member.   I adore it.

Now to the subject of the thread.   I think the Duchess of Windsor was THE best dressed woman of her generation.   Her most likely immediiate competitor, the late Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent - just did not have the same panache.   There is something angularly beautiful about Wallis.   The quality of the composition and the lighting of the photographs is superb, in fact probavby unsurpassed.   Some of her jewels are a bit O.T.T., but they suit her.

Thank you for the pictures of her tiara, Martyn.   That is what I call a tasteful tiara.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on June 03, 2007, 05:55:16 AM
The sapphire bracelet is to die for and I should know as I am salivating at the mouth and getting goose bumps just looking at the picture. ;D ;D ;D

IMO Wallis not wearing tiaras is predominantly due to tiaras not being to her taste but also partly due to being an American.  Loooking through my books, I can only find pictures of three famous American women wearing tiaras; Jackie Kennedy, when receiving or being received by Royalty, "La-La" Liz Taylor when in Europe and Barbra Hutton on many occasions.  I think Barbra Hutton owned an emerald tiara once belonging to Cathrine the Great.

I believe most American women who coule afford a grand tiara feel as I do (though I cannot afford one); why spend the money on a grand tiara when you can buy a nice big fat collet parure for the same money which can be worn to the grocery store, Walmart or a charity ball?

Back to Wallis' only tiara; I would have kept the tiara and worn it as a necklace.

TampaBay   
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 06:27:39 AM
Well, I won't be going until tomorrow......... :)

I agree with you Tsaria.  As we have said before Wallis knew what style was about and it wasn't simply to do with patronising the best couturiers and jewellers.  Money and taste do not always go hand in hand, as we know but in her case, she was blessed with both.

Not really what one could call a beautiful woman, she knew full well how to make the most of what she had and I think that we can safely call her a style icon for her generation.

Tampa, Barbara Hutton's emeralds may have once belonged to Catherine the Great, but their more direct provenance was from the superb emerald parure of GDss Vladimir and was made for her by Cartier in 1947.  Interestingly , Wallis's tiara was also made by Cartier, but in 1949, but the difference in style of the two pieces could not be more marked.  Wallis's contemporary jewel fits very much with her style and personality; Geoffrey Munn asserts that Wallis did not care too much for head ornaments anyway.  Hutton's tiara, although it has a contemporary feel to it, is very much more in the tradition of grand jewellery and is a fit setting for the stones form Miechen's fabulous parure.  Interestingly, Liz Taylor also owns pieces set with stones from this parure; I think that she has the necklace and a brooch..........

Tsaria, how lucky you are to have a replica of that bracelet; I am fortunate to have three latin crosses - one in diamonds, one in calibre cut rubies and the other in calibre cut sapphires, which I wear all together on a chain as David did. Might we be treated to a photo of you wearing ypour bracelet please?  :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 07:05:46 AM
And just for Tsaria, as I know she has expressed admiration for these pieces in the past, Wallis's superb pearls............

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Wallispearls.jpg)

The necklace and pendant are from Cartier, Paris, and may be worn separately. The pendant dates from 1950 and is a whopping 190.60 grains.  The earrings are Van Cleef and Arpels, dated 1957, purchased 1958, and singularly lovely in that one pearl is black and the other white.

Perfect for daytime or night time, one would think?  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 07:13:17 AM
Tampa, you might appreciate this piece more..../  ;)

                                                                 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Wallissapphirenecklace.jpg)

Wallis's sapphire necklace.  Cartier 1940.  Tow rows of sapphire beads supporting nine articulated flowerhead clusters, graduating in size from the centre, set with cabochon sapphires and circular-cut diamonds, and decorated with dart-shaped drops set with circular-cut diamonds.

Perfect for Walmart or a charity ball, n'est-ce pas?   ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on June 03, 2007, 07:14:08 AM
The above necklace currently hangs around the neck of Kelly Klein.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on June 03, 2007, 07:18:52 AM
Wallis's sapphire necklace.  Cartier 1940.  Tow rows of sapphire beads supporting nine articulated flowerhead clusters, graduating in size from the centre, set with cabochon sapphires and circular-cut diamonds, and decorated with dart-shaped drops set with circular-cut diamonds.

Perfect for Walmart or a charity ball, n'est-ce pas?   ;)

And also perfect for the sidewalk cafe seating at the local pub!!!

This is exactly the type of necklace I like to wear but unfortunately the best I could afford would be a third rate knock-off from Macy's.  ;D ;D ;D

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 07:29:33 AM
And I am sure that it would look just as good if you were wearing it Tampa............. :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on June 03, 2007, 07:39:55 AM
Ah, the pearls.   What is it about pearls?   They do more for a woman than any other gem.   Their luminosity seems to give an inner glow to the wearer.   I agree, infinitely adaptable - day or night, jeans or jodphurs, tweeds and cashmere, silks or satins, brogues or Blanihk - the just work.

At the risk of being slightly non-PC, pearls do much the same for a lady's complexion as sable, mink or fox.

As for the pic, Martyn... you don't really think I would spoil this wonderful threats?

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 11:32:38 AM
Ah, the pearls.   What is it about pearls?   They do more for a woman than any other gem.   Their luminosity seems to give an inner glow to the wearer.   I agree, infinitely adaptable - day or night, jeans or jodphurs, tweeds and cashmere, silks or satins, brogues or Blanihk - the just work.

At the risk of being slightly non-PC, pearls do much the same for a lady's complexion as sable, mink or fox.

As for the pic, Martyn... you don't really think I would spoil this wonderful threats?

tsaria

I quite agree with you about pearls.  Perhaps that is why they have been perennially popular?  Infinitely classic, it is good to see that there is so much contemporary affordable modern jewellery using pearls.

Tsaria, I think that the pic would be an enhancement to this discussion and I am sure that the duchess would be pleased to know that there are still amongst us those who admire her style enough to want to wear jewellery as she did.......... :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on June 03, 2007, 12:18:16 PM
...M A R T Y N...   I'm not saying another word.

tsaria

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on June 03, 2007, 12:20:03 PM
The canary diamonds...............divine
The pearls..............................lustrous
The sapphires.........................scrumptious

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 03, 2007, 12:22:59 PM
...M A R T Y N...   I'm not saying another word.

tsaria



As you wish........... :( :( :(
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 03, 2007, 03:15:03 PM
Wow! Has anyone ever seen a request so responded to with such vigor and speed? thanks Martyn! I vote for you for Prime Minister!

Wallis is one of my favorites and she is so due to her perfectly integrated use of charm, beauty, aggressiveness, intelligence, and taste.

When David died, the commentator covering his funeral stated "....the Duchess is showing the royals how to be royal." That may not be the exact set of words, but it is close and was the point.

Given today's 'standards' she should have been queen and she would have been a stunner. On the other hand, there is a grandeur about her that being queen may have tarnished and subdued. She would have looked horrible in the coronation crown and robes! That was so not her. And her jewels were purely Wallis....smart, current, designed, and with imagery. the family's inherited jewels were/are generally not those kind.

A friend of mine whose husband knew David and was at a party with David and Wallis told me she overheard someone ask Wallis 'would you have liked to be queen?' and Wallis' response was a soft and clever "In what sense?"

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on June 03, 2007, 10:41:22 PM
Thank you for the photos, Martyn..here's a few more.


(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/wallis13.jpg)
David and Wallis "at court" at Fort Belvedere.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/wallis15.jpg)
Almost unrecognizable in this heavily retouched photo for a magazine cover
about the time of the Abdication.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/wallis12.jpg)
Now in exile, David and Wallis are condemned to a trivial existence among Cafe Society.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/wallis22.jpg)
On a yachting trip with her friends Katherine and Herman Rogers.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/wallis20.jpg)
In the perfect world she created for David, in the salon in the Bois de Boulougne,
it's rather odd that this portrait of Queen Mary, the woman who forever scorned
Wallis, has such a prominent position.  I wonder how many times while entertaining the
likes of Cole Porter, Elsa Maxwell, and Elizabeth Taylor, that Wallis' eyes glanced upward
towards this portrait, and what she must have thought.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/wallis23.jpg)

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/wallis16.jpg)
After her first or second facelift...trying to erase the inevitable march of Time.

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/wallis21.jpg)
Egyptian gilt-metal necklace as shown above, along with gold bracelet & earclips,
Circa 1960's.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on June 04, 2007, 05:36:48 AM
As in most cases of endeavouring to escape the ravages of time, Wallis would have been much better to have left her face alone.

tsaria

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on June 04, 2007, 06:01:28 AM
TRUE!!!

However cosmetic surgery is much more advanced today than it was when Wallis was pertaking of it.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on June 04, 2007, 04:06:24 PM
Tell that to Kenny Rogers and Faye Dunaway... ::) ;D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Arleen on June 04, 2007, 07:17:01 PM
Yes, and the "Queen of the Knife" herself....Joan Rivers!  Bless her, she can hardly even talk......

Martyn please HURRY back.....I am thrilled that this thread is revived.  Even tho this ole mountain girl has nothing to contribute, and doesn't know one jewel from another....we wear acorns around our necks here, I do so love to read every word and look at all the lucious pictures.....and you'll never know all the  wonderful things I have learned from you'all!!

Arleen

PS   Our own Greg King wrote a wonderful book on the Duchess of Windsor, I love it and have read it several times.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 08:30:22 PM
There used to be at least 2 threads on the Duke and, especially, the Duchess but they were lost during the software switch.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on June 04, 2007, 08:53:47 PM
Cunarder, I think the magazine cover you posted was a portrait.  There seems to be an artist's signature on (our right) side of her collar. 

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:06:39 PM
(http://www.revolution-press.com/news/wp-content/uploads/cartier/museumex/Panther.jpg)

Panther clip brooch
Cartier Paris, 1949
Platinum, white gold
Single-cut diamonds
Two pear-shaped yellow diamonds (eyes)
One 152.35-carat Kashmir sapphire cabochon Sapphire cabochons (spots) This panther is the second three-dimensional example that Cartier made for the Duchess of Windsor (the first one surmounted an emerald cabochon).
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:07:46 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/Edward20VIIIDuchess1.jpg)


(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/CN000192551.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/CN000284171.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:09:55 PM
Wallis's amethyst bib necklace........

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Wallisamethystnecklace.jpg)


(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/BE0370381.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:13:52 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/CN000284052.jpg)

I'm not sure if she's wearing this necklace in the above photo:

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/wallisemeralds.jpg)
(courtesy of EmeraldEyes)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/duwind021.jpg)

She's wearing the ruby necklace from this set (courtesy of EmeraldEyes):

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/wallisrubies.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:15:22 PM
Wallis's tiara, as discussed in the thread concerning the Duchess of Cornwall.  Quite a small jewel and veey contemporary, this piece did not survive in her collection.  Tiaras were not to her taste as this is the only example that I have ever seen of her wearing this jewel and she did not retain it as part of her collection.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Wallistiara.jpg) 

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/duwind071.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:16:35 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/weddinggus.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/popperfoto-1.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:17:43 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/CN000284721.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/CN000284361.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:18:35 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/4GPK2_PL0107-2771.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/4GPJZ_PL0107-2761.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/4GPJY_PL0107-2751.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:19:25 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/4GPL3_PL0107-2781.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/4GPKT_PL0107-2901.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:20:40 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/45070418091.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/000000000000575641.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:21:21 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/4GPLH_PL0107-2821.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/4GPLG_PL0107-2841.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/4GPLB_PL0107-2871.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:21:44 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/4GPL8_PL0107-2791.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/4GPL6_PL0107-2911.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:22:06 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/4GPLF_PL0107-2801.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/4GPLC_PL0107-2861.jpg)

Above are larger or more complete images as those posted on page one by Cunarder.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:22:34 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/82110_1290241.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/1954551.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:23:19 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/10231.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/1698571.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/duchesswindsorgloved-0081.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:23:44 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/Picture3803wallisedward.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/H00801.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:24:16 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/popperfoto-2.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/britain/windsors/engagementday.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:33:24 PM
This was from a US magazine when Wallis was still just one of his 'dancing pals'

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/britain/Picture3075wallis.jpg)
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/britain/Picture3075wallis2.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:33:36 PM
From Cunarder previously:

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/vulgar4.jpg)

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/brooch.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 04, 2007, 09:33:54 PM
This was from a US magazine when Wallis was still just one of his 'dancing pals'

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/britain/Picture3075wallis.jpg)
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/britain/Picture3075wallis2.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on June 06, 2007, 07:45:58 AM
No doubt Wallis could attract headlines much like a modern day Princess Diana or Paris Hilton.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on June 07, 2007, 10:58:19 AM
Here's a short interview with Wallis and David. I had not seen this before!  :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0JW2FBdaUM
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on June 07, 2007, 03:06:16 PM
As regards Wallis and tiaras - Wallis was nothing if not extremely savvy.  No matter how she personally felt about wearing a tiara, she may have deliberatley not worn one in order to underscore her non-HRH status.  Also, a tiara-wearing Wallis (try saying that three times fast  :P) might give opportunites to her enemies to sneer, "Who does she think she is..."  It may have just made good sense from a self-preservation angle to not give herself too many airs.  People already speculated about her jewels and the way she decked herself out as though trying to compensate for something.  A tiara may have only complicated matters to a more ridiculous level.  Just a thought.  ???
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on June 08, 2007, 07:14:09 AM
Possibly Emeraldeyes.   Does anyone have the technology and/or knowhow to paste a tiara on to a photograph of the Duchess of Windsor to let us see?

I cannot visualise Wallis wearing - for example - something like the Delhi Durbar.   This does not chime with her preferred pared down look.   OK some of her jewels were a bit OTT, but looking through those wonderful, perfectly composed, superbly lit, black and white photographs, Wallis fully understood 'less is more' and used herself and her clothes as foils for her jewels.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cunarder on June 08, 2007, 11:02:31 AM
 Does anyone have the technology and/or knowhow to paste a tiara on to a photograph of the Duchess of Windsor to let us see?
tsaria

Here's my version of Wallis, as you requested.    I doubt Wallis would have worn a tiara other
than in the most formal circumstances, such as imagined below.   As she matured, I would guess that a tiara
probably seemed a bit comical to her in light of history, and in bad taste.  She certainly didn't need one.

I felt a bit uncertain about posting this, as I know this site is often used for historical research.
I hope no one is offended by this altered image, and no disrespect was intended by posting it.

Cunarder


(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j138/Cunarder/aaaa.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on June 08, 2007, 01:58:48 PM
Quote
I felt a bit uncertain about posting this, as I know this site is often used for historical research.
I hope no one is offended by this altered image, and no disrespect was intended by posting it.

Yes, it is so well done! ;D

(Was that orginally the Queen?)

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 08, 2007, 05:36:46 PM
Yes, that's one of the Queen's photos. Good PS job, Cunarder.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on June 08, 2007, 06:39:08 PM
Thank you Cunarder.   In the terms and sentiments in which it was posted, nobody could take exception to your art work.

It makes a very interesting composition - and it seems, Wallis would have looked entirely appropriate in a tiara.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 09, 2007, 10:55:50 AM
That is pretty impressive Cunarder!

I think that was a really worthwhile exercise as it clearly demonstrates Wallis's very clear understanding of how to make her clothes and jewels work for her.  In that photo that Cunarder has so very kindly provided we can see quite clearly just how mediocre she looks, when deprived of the elements of style so necessary to her image.

I think that emeraldeyes's suggestions as to why Wallis eschewed the tiara per se are probably on the money.  I suspect that Wallis knew how to conduct herself as a duchess without recourse to such an obvious visual prop........
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 09, 2007, 11:05:09 AM
                                                                    (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Wallis2.jpg)

I love this photo of Wallis.  She looks like she is having such a good time and clutching on to all that she holds dear......her jewels!

She is wearing her cross-over diamond necklace which did not appear in the sale of her jewels.  Did this piece not survive?  Or did she give it away?

She is also wearing the Cartier onyx and diamond panther bangle and  clip, the onyx and diamond tiger bracelet as well as the McLean diamond.........
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 09, 2007, 11:15:18 AM
                                                                                                     (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/WallisMcLeandiamondring.jpg)

And here it is - the McLean diamond ring........doesn't it make your moputh water?

Originally belonging to Evelyn Walsh McLean, a celebrated collector of fine jewellery, who had also once owned the Hope Diamond and a 94.80 carat pear shaped diamond called the 'Star of the East', which she wore supended on a necklace undernaeth the Hope Diamond.  In her autobiography, Evelyn had written '....when I neglect to wear jewels, astute members of my family call in doctors because it is a sign I'm becoming ill.'  Perhaps the same could have been said of Wallis?

This diamond weighs 31.26 carats, is cushion-shaped and set between tapered baguette diamond single stone shoulders.  Evelyn Walsh McLean had died in 1947; Harry Winston bought her jewellery collection in 1949 and the Duke and Duchess purchased this ring from him in May 1950.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 09, 2007, 11:23:12 AM
For those who love emeralds, Wallis's engagement ring in its second incarnation.......

                                                                                                    (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Wallisemeraldengagementring.jpg)

This ring was made by Cartier in Paris for the Duchess in 1958, using the stone from her original engagement ring.  The emerald is step-cut with cut corners weighing 19.77 carats; set within a stylised leaf border set with brilliant-cut diamonds inscribed :Monture Cartier; together with the original emerald ring mount by Cartier, London, 1936, inscribed in facsimile in the shank: We are ours now 27 X 36; and signed Cartier, London
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 09, 2007, 11:29:43 AM
Perhaps one of the most personal and avocative jewels - Wallis's diamond POW plumes......

                                                                                            (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/WallisPOWfeathers.jpg)

I think that the Duchess would have been happy to know that Elizabeth Taylor, whose own collection of jewellery almost rivals that of the Duchess and could perhaps have called herself a friend, bought this lovely piece............
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ashdean on June 09, 2007, 12:40:52 PM
                                                                    (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Wallis2.jpg)

I love this photo of Wallis.  She looks like she is having such a good time and clutching on to all that she holds dear......her jewels!

She is wearing her cross-over diamond necklace which did not appear in the sale of her jewels.  Did this piece not survive?  Or did she give it away?

She is also wearing the Cartier onyx and diamond panther bangle and  clip, the onyx and diamond tiger bracelet as well as the McLean diamond.........
The necklace and a flower brooch with 5 pear shaped emeralds were reset as a necklace by Cartier from which to hang the 49 carat pearshaped emerald once owned by Alfonso XIII of Spain & bought by the Windsors via Harry Winston...(by excanging a Cartier emerald bead & diamond tiara/necklace AND a baguetter diamond & emerald 2 row necklace) . The pendant & necklace were both in the Windsor sale..
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 09, 2007, 12:52:32 PM
Thank you very much for that information Ashdean.  I had no idea that the emerald and diamond necklace had been composed of pieces that came from the duchess's collection.

Whilst one cannot but admire the wonderful emerald and diamond necklace, it does seem a bit of a shame that the diamond necklace fell victim to its creation......
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on June 09, 2007, 05:17:05 PM
What did Edward take out of England?  I have heard he took some things, what were they?

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 10, 2007, 04:03:18 AM
There has been much discussion of heirloom jewels that he allegedly took with him - notably the so-called 'Alexandra emeralds', but no one has ever been able to prove that these jewels in fact existed, or that he took anything to which he was not entitled............
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Mari on June 10, 2007, 06:36:44 AM
What is the background of the Alexandra Emeralds...history so forth and is there an image of them at any point? I also had heard the Story that he was allowed to take some jewelry...but of course I couldn't find anything to back it up.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 10, 2007, 12:58:09 PM
Check this link

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,8200.msg235829.html#msg235829

for a good bit of info on the emeralds.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on June 10, 2007, 03:09:44 PM
Oh my goodness - I think we might be embarking on another mystery worthy of Hercule Poirot - minus the dead bodies... unless you include the Duke's Faberge soldier figures, which weren't, of course, stolen.   Rather, they were, somehow, overlooked?

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 11, 2007, 07:53:54 AM
Check this link

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,8200.msg235829.html#msg235829

for a good bit of info on the emeralds.

Interesting, but after all hearsay.  Are we to infer that the source was Mrs Greville?  If so, she is hardly likely to represent any of the doings of the Duke and Duchess in any kind of positive light due to her intimacy with the QM.

I doubt that we will ever know the truth of this but my own feeling is that the tale of the 'Alexandra emeralds' is apocryphal........
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ashdean on June 11, 2007, 08:12:50 AM
There has been much discussion of heirloom jewels that he allegedly took with him - notably the so-called 'Alexandra emeralds', but no one has ever been able to prove that these jewels in fact existed, or that he took anything to which he was not entitled............
I think the story of the Alexandra emeralds (which has been discussed to death on here!) is pure hokum...Wallis penchant for resetting gems AND part exchanging items has meant that people though she had EVEN more jewels than she actually had !! I would doubt more than a dozen items were sold before her death (though they did include the huge pearshaped canary yellow diamond ring) or passed on  as mementos by her executors..though these are thought to include her hearts charm bracelet & the turqouise and amythest bracelet from the famous parure...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 11, 2007, 08:51:16 AM
I think that is a very fair summation ashdean. 

It might be worth adding that a fair amount of envy was excited by Wallis and her jewellery and that the 'Alexandra emeralds' legend may just be an expression of this.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on June 11, 2007, 06:50:18 PM
At this moment I am only jealous of Kelly Klein and the perfectly matched pearl necklace that should be mine and hanging around my neck!  :D :D :D

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 11, 2007, 08:20:45 PM
Check this link

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,8200.msg235829.html#msg235829

for a good bit of info on the emeralds.

Interesting, but after all hearsay.  Are we to infer that the source was Mrs Greville?  If so, she is hardly likely to represent any of the doings of the Duke and Duchess in any kind of positive light due to her intimacy with the QM.



No, I think the writer of the letter (completely separate from the other info I provided) just mentions Mrs. Greville. I included it in the excerpt because of the mention so early on of her leaving jewels to the Queen Mother.

The other information I gave (printed in full in this link):

http://www.etoile.co.uk/Columns/RoyalScribe/040329.html

was from someone who later wrote a very long article on the theft of the Windsor Jewels (and talked more about the emeralds) for the European Royal History Journal.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on June 11, 2007, 09:27:16 PM
I think that the Duchess would have been happy to know that Elizabeth Taylor, whose own collection of jewellery almost rivals that of the Duchess and could perhaps have called herself a friend, bought this lovely piece............


(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/powflalizwallis.jpg)

Ultra close-up pic from Elizabeth Taylor's hugely fascinating tome "My Love Affair With Jewelry".  Here is what La Liz had to say about the Duke, the Duchess, and the auction:

"I first met the Duke and Duchess of Windsor when I was eighteen and married to Nicky Hilton.  I got to know them only slightly, and being so shy didn't make it any easier.   But they always smiled at me and were sweet to me.  Years later, Richard was doing a film in Paris, and whenever he worked I didn't, and when I worked he didn't so that we could always be together.  That's when we got to know the Duke and Duchess much better.  The Duke's respect for her was so beautiful.  He called her Duchess.  Besides, if you didn't call her Duchess I think you would have been on your way out.  I never called her Wallis.  I always called her Duchess.
"Around that time we were really being hatcheted to death by the press and dogged wherever we went, even though we were married by then.  The Duke and Duchess must have seen the headlines and stuff and had a bit of déjà vu themselves.  The beating they took by the press made us look like chopped chicken liver.  They asked us to lunch with them at their house in Paris, which was exceptionally beautiful and quiet.  The Duke had done the garden completely by himself.  He designed it, he dug it, he planted every flower and shrub.  It was his jewel.
"Years later, I read in a book written by the Duchess's lady-in-waiting that when the Duchess was trying to decide what jewelry to wear to our lunch, she started to put on a diamond ring and then exclaimed, 'Oh no, I can't wear that!  Elizabeth's diamond is much bigger.  Give me the sapphire.'  I thought this was very amusing.
On one of our visits she came down wearing a pin that was the insignia of Wales, which I loved especially because Richard was so Welsh all the way through, and I was becoming Welsh myself by osmosis.  I exclaimed over the pin and asked, 'Isn't that the royal insignia for the Prince of Wales, with the three feathers in the crown?'  'Indeed,' she said,' and when Lord Mountbatten came to take back all the royal pieces he missed this one!'  I thought it was a great story an dalso so romanitc that the Duke had the brooch made up for the Duchess.  She even offered to let me copy it.  'Oh my God,' I said,"I simply couldn't do that!  What you have is a unique piece.'  'Very well,' she agreed,' but every time I see you I'll wear it in your honor.'  I don't know how many times we went to their country house, but we always had a wonderful time.  I could tell how much the Duchess loved him, and she must have been so lonely when he died.  Poor thing, she got Alzheimer's, and that is such a slow and terrible death.
"There came a point when I stopped hearing from her, and whenever I tried to get in touch with her I was always politely shuffled aside.  I never had the opportunity to say goodbye to her.  Then the auction of her estate came up in 1987 and that's when I saw the pin.  I had an immediate sense that she wanted me to have it.  And it was important to me because the money was going to AIDS research.  Even though I had never bought myself any important jewelry before - in a shop, much less at an auction - I told myself that I was going to bid on that pin and that I was going to get it.
"It was a warm day and my kids - just family - were around the pool in their bathing suits, and Ward Landrigan, of Sotheby's, and I were talking constantly on the phone.  It seems I was bidding against somebody who wanted it just as much as I did, but not for the same reason.  I wanted it because I knew the Duchess had wanted me to have it.  It was a spooky, eerie thing.  I was also motivated because the money was going to a cause I was deeply committed to.  So I kept on saying, 'More, more, yes, more, more.  Yes!  Yes!'  And I started laughing because the price was over $600,000.  The kids were all looking at me, and my son Michael was staring at me as if I'd flipped my wig.  And they didn't even know what the price was, they only heard me repeating 'More, more, more.'  Then there was a silence.  And I could hear the auctioneer:  'For $623,000 to the caller on the telephone.  Do I hear more?  Do I hear more?  Going, going, gone!'  I let out the biggest scream and so did the kids, especially when I told them the price...some of them threw themselves into the swimming pool.
"All along I knew my friend the Duchess wanted me to have it.  And I sitll know that.  It's a royal piece that I save for very special occasions because it means so much to me."

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 12, 2007, 03:57:26 AM
That is such a great story.  I love that book about Elizabeth Taylor's jewellery and I have to say that Taylor's own collection is as impressive as that of Wallis.

I think that it is marvellous that Taylor bought this piece - very fitting.

Just one final word on the so-called 'Alexandra emeralds'.  Whether they existed or not no longer really matters; The Windsors have emeralds enough. 

What we should remember is that the sale of the Duchess's jewels ultimately had a positive effect in helping people who need help.  Nothing can diminish that.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on June 12, 2007, 04:35:59 AM
Yes.

tsaria

(shortest post in my life)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on June 12, 2007, 05:22:19 AM
Quote
and when Lord Mountbatten came to take back all the royal pieces he missed this one!'


Did he really go down to Paris and pick up all the jewels?

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 12, 2007, 05:38:43 AM
Yes.

tsaria

(shortest post in my life)

Brevity.  Admire that.  :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Mari on June 12, 2007, 06:32:04 AM
Thank you for the information and I will check out the links. The thing about the Duke and Duchess of Windsor is that they were a very romantic part of British Royal History. There's always been a lot of interest in them and their always will be. Including the Duchess's jewelry of which She was so famous....and rightly so...the pieces were so beautiful...along with any stories...make them interesting!
That book sounds like its worth getting.   ::)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 12, 2007, 08:02:25 AM
Thank you for the information and I will check out the links. The thing about the Duke and Duchess of Windsor is that they were a very romantic part of British Royal History. There's always been a lot of interest in them and their always will be. Including the Duchess's jewelry of which She was so famous....and rightly so...the pieces were so beautiful...along with any stories...make them interesting!
That book sounds like its worth getting.   ::)

Which book Mari - the Taylor one?  If so, yes it is worth getting.  A bit short on information but very anecdotal and lovely images.  It was thirty quid well spent..... ;)

There are two great ones about the Windsors that you probably know anyway - 'The Windsor Style' by Suzy Menkes and the one that deals specifically with Wallis and David's jewellery collection - 'The Jewels of the Duchess of Windsor' (can't remember the authors off the top of my head..... :-[)  If you haven't got them, they are really worth having....... :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ashdean on June 12, 2007, 03:25:14 PM
Thank you for the information and I will check out the links. The thing about the Duke and Duchess of Windsor is that they were a very romantic part of British Royal History. There's always been a lot of interest in them and their always will be. Including the Duchess's jewelry of which She was so famous....and rightly so...the pieces were so beautiful...along with any stories...make them interesting!
That book sounds like its worth getting.   ::)

Which book Mari - the Taylor one?  If so, yes it is worth getting.  A bit short on information but very anecdotal and lovely images.  It was thirty quid well spent..... ;)

There are two great ones about the Windsors that you probably know anyway - 'The Windsor Style' by Suzy Menkes and the one that deals specifically with Wallis and David's jewellery collection - 'The Jewels of the Duchess of Windsor' (can't remember the authors off the top of my head..... :-[)  If you haven't got them, they are really worth having....... :)
Menkes book is full of inaccuracies..saying the Duchesses emerald necklace or her amythest one are  rubies etc etc
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Le Roi Soleil on June 13, 2007, 11:00:49 AM
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p33/LeRoiSoleil_2006/wind1.jpg)

The  luxurious duchess's bathroom in the Windsors' house in the Bois de Boulogne

(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p33/LeRoiSoleil_2006/wind2.jpg)

The duchess's bedroom, where she remained in a coma for her last years.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 13, 2007, 11:30:26 AM
Menkes book is full of inaccuracies..saying the Duchesses emerald necklace or her amythest one are  rubies etc etc

I am not a fan of Menkes by any means; indeed her book about the royal jewels also contains inaccuracies.

However, for anyone wishing to read a book with good illustrations about the Windsor's life and style, it is definitely worth a look.

Serious students of the Duchess's jewels should invest in the book that deals specifically with that subject, which I also recommended.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on June 13, 2007, 04:31:50 PM
Even the pug cushions look so forlorn.   I wonder what became of them?

I have to say, the bathroom is ghastly.   If it was still like that when Dodi gave Diana the 'tour' on that last, dreadful day, its little wonder she couldn't wait to get out of the place.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on June 13, 2007, 06:10:21 PM
I have to say, the bathroom is ghastly.   If it was still like that when Dodi gave Diana the 'tour' on that last, dreadful day, its little wonder she couldn't wait to get out of the place.

I know what you mean, Tsaria, but I like it in some ways too!  It looks like the set of a Lux advertisement from the 1950's... :D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ashdean on June 14, 2007, 03:01:09 PM
Menkes book is full of inaccuracies..saying the Duchesses emerald necklace or her amythest one are  rubies etc etc

I am not a fan of Menkes by any means; indeed her book about the royal jewels also contains inaccuracies.

However, for anyone wishing to read a book with good illustrations about the Windsor's life and style, it is definitely worth a look.

Serious students of the Duchess's jewels should invest in the book that deals specifically with that subject, which I also recommended.
I was talking about her royal Jewels book...the Windsor style book is much better !!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on June 14, 2007, 08:32:55 PM
Personally I was very disappointed with The Windsor Style. 

Many of the pictures are of abominable quality and the paper used is not the best.  Ditto for the jewel book.  JMO.

I would like to get a copy of the Culme/Rayner book, but I would like to know opinions from those who have it - is it worth the trouble to track down?  What is the picture quality like?  How about the paper?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 17, 2007, 12:51:49 PM
Personally I was very disappointed with The Windsor Style. 

Many of the pictures are of abominable quality and the paper used is not the best.  Ditto for the jewel book.  JMO.

I would like to get a copy of the Culme/Rayner book, but I would like to know opinions from those who have it - is it worth the trouble to track down?  What is the picture quality like?  How about the paper?

I have the Culme Rayner book and I have to say that I think that it is a wonderful book.  Quite scholarly about the jewels, but a certain amount of anecdotal stuff about the sale itself and their lives etc at the front.

The photos are marvellous; I can't really comment about the paper quality but I have had my copy since the book came out and it has been well read, as you can imagine.....

'The Windsor Style' could be better I agree, but to the best of my knowledge it is the only publication that deals with this subject.  The Menkes jewel book is very disappointing in terms of images and as Ashdean has pointed out, contains many factual inaccuracies.

It would be so marvellous to have a new work that deals with the Queen's collection.........Geoffrey Munn would be the perfect choice for this type of work.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on June 17, 2007, 02:12:15 PM
Yes, Geoffrey Munn would do this vast subject justice.    So might that guy who posts on the Alexander Palace Time Machine Discussion Forum.............'Martyn' I think he's called.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on June 17, 2007, 04:04:48 PM
tsaria, I think you might be right about that. 

A while back on one of the other message board, there had been mention of a book coming out this year entitled "Ancient and Modern Gems and Jewels in the Collection of Her Majesty The Queen".  It was to be a production of the Royal Collection.  I have heard nothing further about it though.   :-\  Maybe someone else has more info?

Martyn - thanks for your comments re the Culme/Rayner book.  It might make it on to the birthday wish list this year! 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 18, 2007, 08:01:42 AM
Yes, Geoffrey Munn would do this vast subject justice.    So might that guy who posts on the Alexander Palace Time Machine Discussion Forum.............'Martyn' I think he's called.

tsaria

You are joking!

I have forgotten far more than I ever knew in the first place.  I must add that there are others in the Group who are far more knowledgeable than I when it comes to the Windsor jewels.  Thank you for the kind compliment anyway........ :)

Emeraldeyes, that sounds like it would be an amazing book - have you heard anything more about it?  Do get the Wallis book if you can - I don't think that it will disappoint......
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on June 18, 2007, 09:14:07 AM
No, I am NOT joking.   

Knowledge can easily be brushed up - style and delivery are uniquely one's own.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 19, 2007, 08:03:35 AM
No, I am NOT joking.   

Knowledge can easily be brushed up - style and delivery are uniquely one's own.

tsaria

You are too kind, really.

A work such as the one described by emeraldeyes really would be a unique opportunity to porduce something that is detailed and sholarly on the subject of thre Queen's jewellery, before that collection is perhaps dispersed forever.  I do hope that this book does happen and although it might have limited appeal, it will be something that some of us will potentially derive much pleasure from reading and discussing.........
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on June 19, 2007, 07:17:21 PM
She looks so elegant in this photo, meriting the reputation of being one of the best-dressed women of her time...........

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Wallisinbibnecklace.jpg)

This is my favorite picture of Wallis. Let us view it twice!

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 20, 2007, 03:51:29 AM
I love the dark gloves with that dress.  One could argue that perhaps they are a touch heavy with such a pale gown, but they seem to balance the darkness of her hair and eyes.  I would love to know what colour shoes that she chose with this dress....... :-\
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Mari on June 20, 2007, 04:28:20 AM
I would love to know the color of the dress and gloves too! I mean its not in color so although the dress is light those of you that recognize the necklace surmise for me what color you think it might be? A Beautiful photo of a very stylish Woman.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on June 20, 2007, 05:11:36 AM
I love the dark gloves with that dress.  One could argue that perhaps they are a touch heavy with such a pale gown, but they seem to balance the darkness of her hair and eyes.  I would love to know what colour shoes that she chose with this dress....... :-\

What a difference an eye for detail can make!   I would not have noticed the gloves, but drawn to my attention, I can see that anything paler would have totally destroyed both texture and tone of the photograph.

This is photography at its very best.   Black and white photography in the hands of a lighting, photographic artist like this one can reveal so much more than colour.   The Duchess of Windsor knew how to exploit light and shade to her advantage and in this image we see a supreme example of the art.

Knowing little as I do about jewellery, I think the Duchess is wearing her 'bib' necklace.   If I recall correctly, this comprises multi-coloured stones, so therefore is not helpful in detecting the colour of her gown.   However, somehow the colour is secondary to the texture - lush, shimmering, weighty Duchesse satin.

tsaria

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 21, 2007, 11:30:33 AM
A wonderful analysis of that photo Tsaria.

Wallis had a very good understanding of the sculptural quality of her face and how black and white images could display that to dramatic effect, compensating for her lack of conventional beauty.

Her whole appearance is a work of art, carefully considered as to scale and colour, texture and line, and not simply about the ne plus ultra of fashion.

The bib necklace, which is illustrated on page two of this thread, is composed of emeralds and rubies, with a small diamond content, on a fairly flat gold shape.  I think that it could be worn with pretty much anything...........As you say, Tsaria, the photo is about light and texture and the lustrous satin offsets the almost architectural quality of her head.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on June 21, 2007, 07:20:41 PM
A wonderful analysis of that photo Tsaria.

Wallis had a very good understanding of the sculptural quality of her face and how black and white images could display that to dramatic effect, compensating for her lack of conventional beauty.

Her whole appearance is a work of art, carefully considered as to scale and colour, texture and line, and not simply about the ne plus ultra of fashion.


Fashion comes and goes but real style has nothing to do with fashion! 

Style:  Either you have it or you don't !!!!. 

QEII is the best example of style that works.  QEII's style over the last five year has been  excellent!

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 22, 2007, 08:54:40 AM
Yep, I agree with your comments about style Tampa.

Wallis had it in spades and a lot of Windsor women wouldn't know it if it landed on their heads from Mars!  ;)

HM just looks better and better..........
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 22, 2007, 09:54:30 AM
She looks so elegant in this photo, meriting the reputation of being one of the best-dressed women of her time...........

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Wallisinbibnecklace.jpg)

This is my favorite picture of Wallis. Let us view it twice!

TampaBay


agree with the comments on the magnificense of this photo of Wallis. I particularly enjoy the fact that she is obviously crossing her legs...a pose rarely struck by royals or high ladies of the day. Even though her legs are covered with the artfully draped gown, nicely covering the seat to her right, the subtle point her right toe makes through the dress gives a sense that she is ready to engage, to move forward with a precise comment or jesture. The photo has movement; energy that few subjects can convey as Wallis does. Credit to the photog as well.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on June 22, 2007, 11:10:35 AM
Yep, I agree with your comments about style Tampa.

Wallis had it in spades and a lot of Windsor women wouldn't know it if it landed on their heads from Mars!  ;)

Which seems to be the origin of many of the things found on their heads...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 22, 2007, 12:03:35 PM
Yep, I agree with your comments about style Tampa.

Wallis had it in spades and a lot of Windsor women wouldn't know it if it landed on their heads from Mars!  ;)

Which seems to be the origin of many of the things found on their heads...

In particular, Sophie Wessex!!!  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Mari on June 26, 2007, 06:27:52 AM
Was the Bib necklace sold? If so who bought it?      I love B/W photo's but I am also trying to learn a lot more about the colors worn in the 1930's and 40's..... I wonder what color was  the Duchess of Windsor's favorite during these wonderful 1940's shots?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Le Roi Soleil on June 27, 2007, 03:59:04 AM
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p33/LeRoiSoleil_2006/Princess%20Elizabeth/1960.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on June 27, 2007, 06:15:52 AM
Wearing the pearl necklace that should be wearing me!  ;D ;D ;D

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 27, 2007, 11:23:38 AM
Wearing the pearl necklace that should be wearing me!  ;D ;D ;D

TampaBay

Actually I think that Tsaria bagged those pearls a long time ago.......... ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Mari on June 28, 2007, 03:21:43 AM
 The Duchess of Windsor's jewellery collection is a famous one, and is even more fascinating because of the proximity we have been allowed to these historic pieces: most of the collection was sold at auction in 1987 (American designer Calvin Klein famously bought his then-wife, Kelly, the Duchess's sumptuous two-strand pearl necklace). Her collection included a ruby-and-diamond bracelet made by Van Cleef & Arpels, inscribed in 1936 with a simple but potent message from the then-King: 'Hold tight'. I thought the inscription very telling!! The Pearls and the Ruby and Diamond leaf  brooch are my favorites but I love the Ruby and Emerald Bib Necklace also. Although I read all the pages of posts I cannot remember this being mentioned if it has just ignore!

The Bib necklace according to a quote "may have been in the Oct.  1946 robbery."
I also found out for those of us that love visual picture's that Mainboucher desgined a lot of the clothes that the Duchess's fabulous jewelry are worn with in the 1940's and that he named a color after her called Wallis Blue. :D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on June 28, 2007, 04:19:56 AM
What a memory, Martyn.    Sorry Tampa, but my name's on those pearls... along with the canary diamond earrings.   You can have the rest - except for the Latin crosses bracelet - I already have that.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 28, 2007, 04:48:24 AM
What a memory, Martyn.    Sorry Tampa, but my name's on those pearls... along with the canary diamond earrings.   You can have the rest - except for the Latin crosses bracelet - I already have that.

tsaria

Like an elephant......... ;)

Mari, I have never heard that the bib necklace was supposed to have been stolen in the Ednam Lodge robbery; where di you hear that?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on June 28, 2007, 05:44:47 AM
What a memory, Martyn.    Sorry Tampa, but my name's on those pearls... along with the canary diamond earrings.   You can have the rest - except for the Latin crosses bracelet - I already have that.

tsaria

No I will settle for sapphire engagement bracelet.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 28, 2007, 10:56:04 AM
What a memory, Martyn.    Sorry Tampa, but my name's on those pearls... along with the canary diamond earrings.   You can have the rest - except for the Latin crosses bracelet - I already have that.

tsaria

No I will settle for sapphire engagement bracelet.

TampaBay

No prizes for guessing that would be your choice........ ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Mari on June 29, 2007, 02:49:45 AM
The Duchess of Windsor: The Uncommon life of Wallis Simpson by Greg King
But then in further reading he goes on to say.. Precisely what was stolen has never been entirely clear ..so now I'm confused. The below quote is interesting about the Diamonds.


"After the theft, the Duke set about replenishing his Wife's collection. In 1947 he purchased an amethyst, gold and turquoiise necklace from
Cartier.   In February, 1948 Wallis saw a brilliant pair of canary- yellow diamonds.... I can't think of anything I would rather have than these two  Diamonds.... she told jeweler Harry Winston. The two Diamonds weighing 92.48 carats and encased in gold wire were soon among the Duchess's favorite pieces. She called them her very ripe pears."  :D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 29, 2007, 03:36:42 AM
The Duchess of Windsor: The Uncommon life of Wallis Simpson by Greg King
But then in further reading he goes on to say.. Precisely what was stolen has never been entirely clear ..so now I'm confused. The below quote is interesting about the Diamonds.


"After the theft, the Duke set about replenishing his Wife's collection. In 1947 he purchased an amethyst, gold and turquoiise necklace from
Cartier.   In February, 1948 Wallis saw a brilliant pair of canary- yellow diamonds.... I can't think of anything I would rather have than these two  Diamonds.... she told jeweler Harry Winston. The two Diamonds weighing 92.48 carats and encased in gold wire were soon among the Duchess's favorite pieces. She called them her very ripe pears."  :D

Mari, the precise contents of the Duchess's jewel box at the time of the theft has never been thoroughly detailed and confusion reigned at the time and still continues to cloud the issue.  The list of items stolen contained the word 'etcetera' which some have interpreted to mean the mythical unset emeralds from Alexandra's collection.  More likely this should be taken to mean the missing odd earrings from her jewel case (18 mismatched earrings were found on Sunningdale golf course nearby...)

In addition, the jewels were insured for £400,000 but the duke estimated the loss to be a mere £20,000; the new Cartier Bird of Paradise brooch had been delivered on the morning of the theft and disappeared with the rest of the jewels.  Its value surely must have been at least a substantial portion of this figure?

It is all very confusing and we will probably never know the truth.  The theft was undoubtedly an inside job but the settlement of the claim was generous, paying for all the lost items and re-insuring the Duchess's collection for a higher figure. 

We should however bear in mind that many of the Duchess's jewels, although valuable, had the added significance of sentimental attachment and their loss must have been very painful for her.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 29, 2007, 01:50:09 PM
Here's something I'd written prior on another thread:

Here's an interesting article on the subject of the Duke & Duchess of Windsor jewel theft:

http://www.etoile.co.uk/Columns/RoyalScribe/040329.html

The pertinent part about the emeralds:

"The rumor goes that when Princess Alexandra of Denmark arrived in England in 1863, she carried with her a valuable collection of uncut emeralds, given to her as a gift from the Danish people. According to the scandalmongers, the then Prince of Wales had inherited these emeralds from Alexandra for the purpose of passing them down to his future wife, the next queen of England. Speculation over the story came to a head just before the abdication when, it was claimed, Wallis’ divorce attorney was sent to retrieve the emeralds from her in Cannes....Even Lady Dudley, the duke and duchess’s hostess at Ednam Lodge, was later quoted as saying that the stolen jewelry box had contained “HRH’s (the duke’s) fantastic collection of Fabergé boxes and a great many uncut emeralds which I believe belonged to Queen Alexandra.” 

Shortly after the robbery, the story once again captured the public imagination and gave rise to the theory that the royal family had orchestrated the robbery in an attempt to recover the emeralds once and for all.  With little regard to the evidence of the case and with no confirmation that the emeralds had ever even existed, the theory was generally considered to have merit and plagued the duke and duchess throughout their lives. To the modern observer, however, the holes in this theory are glaring.

To begin with, Lady Dudley’s claim that the stolen jewelry box contained “uncut emeralds” that had belonged to Queen Alexandra is ridiculous, as it is highly unlikely that, if they even existed, such important emeralds would have remained uncut for 80 years, especially in the hands of the flashy Duchess of Windsor. Even if the stones had been cut and put into settings, they don’t appear to have been in her jewelry box. The official list of stolen jewels, which was provided to police and the insurance company, includes only one emerald – a ring consisting of a relatively small 7.81-carat square cut stone. Historical accounts of the robbery place a great deal of emphasis on the fact that the list contained the word ‘etcetera,’ and imply that this was a tactic by the duke and duchess to obscure their possession of the emeralds. Perhaps, but it is more likely that ‘etcetera’ was a reference to the mates of the some 18 unmatched earrings recovered on the Sunningdale golf course the following day. 

The smaller details out of the way, we can address one of the foundations of the original rumor – that the duke had inherited the emeralds from his grandmother. In fact, Queen Alexandra died intestate in 1925, and her three remaining children – Queen Maud of Norway, Princess Victoria of Wales and King George V (along with Queen Mary) – met together at Sandringham to divide all of her belongings in equal portions among them. Since many of the jewels Alexandra had worn in her lifetime had been considered held in trust for future queens of England, only her truly private collection of jewels remained. If there had been a large cache of important emeralds among her remaining jewels, it’s doubtful that Queen Mary – who had a mania for jewels – would have let go of them so readily, especially to a son she considered irresponsible. Some of the most important emeralds in the present queen’s collection – the Cambridge emeralds and Delhi Durbar emeralds – were acquired by Queen Mary and carefully passed down to her granddaughter. 

Whatever was passed to the then Prince of Wales from Alexandra’s belongings came to him via his parents and would have been a matter of public record, at least among the royal family. In fact, it was no secret that Alexandra’s collection of Fabergé boxes, which was stored in the duchess’s jewelry box and had been abandoned during the robbery on one of the windowsills at Ednam Lodge, had been passed down to him after her death. 

But if these explanations leave any doubt in the mind, Leslie Field solidly debunks the myth of “Alexandra’s emeralds” and offers a conclusive end to the story in “The Queen’s Jewels: The Personal Collection of Elizabeth II.”  Field, whose extensive research into the queen’s collection was helped along by Her Majesty’s Household, confirmed that the precise records of the wedding gifts given to the Victorian Prince and Princess of Wales did not include “a great many uncut emeralds.” There is no doubt that Alexandra received many precious gems upon her marriage, emeralds included, but they were all set into various pieces of jewelry, and there is no record of anything like Lady Dudley and others had suggested. "
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 29, 2007, 01:53:38 PM
In European Royal History Journal from August 2006 there's an article Burglary on the Links: Unraveling the Mystery of the Stolen Windsor Jewels by Tori V Martinez (who wrote the shorter article I linked to before). It's 10 pages so I can't even paraphrase it all but I'll look for some pertinent points.

Here's what it says about Lady Dudley: 'When the official list of the stolen jewels listed only one relatively small emerald, it was widely suggested that 'et cetera' translated into 'Alexandra's emeralds.' The Duke and Duchess's hostess...Lady Dudley, later exacerbated the claim by stating in her memmoirs that she had 'examined the contents' of the duchess's jewel box and that it had contained '...a great many uncut emeralds which I believe belonged to Queen Alexandra.' Lady Dudley's word might appear to provide concrete evidence of the existence of the emeralds, but although most accounts of the burglary have relied heavily on her story, the case file challenges many of her claims. With regard to the emeralds, her own statement to police following the burglary directly contradicts her later assertion that she had seen the jewel box and examined its contents. According to the police report: 'They [Lord and Lady Dudley] naturally assumed that the Duchess would have brought some jewellery with her, but neither had any idea that she had brought such a large quantity as was stolen.' If Lady Dudley had in fact seen the jewel box, she would have had little reason to deny it to police. And if she didn't lie to police, then it seems almost certain that she didn't see the jewel box or any of its contents. With or without this evidence from the case file, it's still possible to prove that even if Lady Dudly had seen the jewel box, she could never have seen uncut emeralds that once belonged to Queen Alexandra. Working back through history, it's first of all highly unlikely that such important emeralds would have remained uncut for 80 years--particularly in the hands of two jewel-obsessed women like Queen Alexandra and the Duchess of Windsor.'

That's it regarding Lady Dudley. The entire article is very well-researched (almost one full page of citations) and for anyone really interested in the story, I believe that Art sells back issues.

Further bits: 'among the stolen items was a brand new brooch in the shape of a jeweled bird of paradise comprised of a nearly 65 carat cabochon sapphire, at least 350 small diamonds, and no few than a dozen other precious gems.'

The value of this brooch helped call into question some of the facts reported since the duke was 'evasive' regarding how much the jewels cost. He told journalists that the grand total of the loss was only GBP 20,000 though the items claimed were insured for GBP 400,000.

Here is the list, published by the couple's assessors (Summes, Henderson and Co of Leadenhall St) of stolen items:

one diamond bird clip
one diamond aquamarine brooch
one platinum & diamond bracelet w/6 large aquamarines
one aquamarine ring w/solitaire aquamarine (58.2 carats)
one gold ring set w/one golden sapphire (41.4 carats)
one solitaire square cut emerald ring (7.81 carats)
one pair diamond & sapphire earrings
one pair of diamond ball earrings
one pair of earrings in shape of a shell (one set w/blue sapphire, the other w/yellow sapphire)
one double gold chain necklace w/one large blue sapphire and one yellow sapphire
et cetera

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 29, 2007, 01:54:18 PM
"For security, the duchess had her maid move the suitcase containing the jewel box into the duchess' bedroom, where it was left to rest in front of the fireplace. The duchess' maid, Miss Martin, later stated the somewhat backwardly practical reason for this:

'...I was going on holiday the following Friday and we thought it best to bring the suitcase to the duchess's room on the Wednesday and not leave it until the day I went away as we thought that if we left it until then it would make the other members of the staff suspicious of what it contained.'

Following a puncutal schedule, at 5:30 that evening the bell rang calling the sixteen members of the staff to their evening meal, which was taken in the staff dining room, qutie a distance from the duchess' bedroom. Miss Martin left for dinner a few minutes later, returning to the duchess' room aruond 7:00 pm when she discovered that the suitcase had been pried open and the jewel box was missing...To begin with, none of the servants had seen or heard anything and none of the dogs belonging to either the duke and duchess or the earl and countess ever barked....Although much emphasis is placed on the dogs not barking, no previous account has identified their exact location during the burglary. The case file confirms that the Dudleys' head housemaid was out walking at least one (and perhaps two) of the dogs during the time the burglary was committed. If the dogs were with the housemaid, then it's logical to conclude they were not near where the theft was being committed and, therefore, wouldn't have barked. "

The author of the article doesn't seem to think that the Windsors pulled off the scheme as an insurance fraud.

While news reports placed the value at about GBP500,000 (about GBP13 million today   ) the Duke maintained they were worth GBP20,000 and they were insured for GBP400,000.

'Too many elements of the burglary were suspicious for some people to believe that the Duke and Duchess...themselves weren't behind it with the aim of collecting the insurance payout....Once again, the Windsors' secretive and misleading behavior about the stolen jewels did much to perpetuate this belief, as did the fact that no one was ever tried for the crime....[The] insurance settlement was extremely generous, paying for all the lost pieces to be replaced and reinsuring the new collection...upon serious reflection, the thought of the Duke and Duchess...going to such extraordinary lengths at great risk to themselves seems almost too spectacular to be likely."

While Leslie Field told Charles Higham (the biographer) that she thought the Duchess had committed fraud by overstating the value and identification of her jewels and that some of the 'stolen' items turned up at the Sotheby's auction and it was her belief that the 'missing' jewels had been kept in a strongbox all those years. Tori Martinez maintains, however, that the case file debunks this since comparing the 2 lists--the stolen jewelry (with photos of many) and the detail inventories/photos of the auction items--indicates that it's 'nearly impossible to find duplicate items'. Only 2 items--the Prince of Wales feather brooch and a pair of earrings, both easily replicated, match any of the items listed as stolen, or even come close. For another, neither the police nor the insurance company seemed to have regarded the Windsors as suspects. The insurance company could've declined to pay at all since the Duchess was so lax in securing her jewels but they not only honored the claim but were very generous.

The Forum's very own Greg King is cited in the article as 'flatly' rejecting the suggestion that the Windsor's orchestrated the theft. King called it a 'preposterous idea' that can be 'easily corrected' since at the same time the theft occured, there was a very sophisticated jewel theft ring operating around London. The police report, while indicating that while it 'seems incredible that this offence could have been committed without collusion, past experience proves that most climbing thieves operatet with the knowledge that all the staff are absent from the upper rooms at meal times. This was clearly planned by an experienced cat burglar...'.

Ms Martinez regards the theft as rather a watershed episode for the Windsors believing that it 'effectively ruined' the Windsors's chances of ever returning to England permanently. The theft seemed to confirm that scandal and bad publicity followed in their wake. [Some really bad PR occurred when, the day after the theft, the Duchess told a reporter, in response to a question about the jewels with the comment that 'A fool would know that with tweeds or other daytime clothes one wears gold and with evening clothes one wears platinum.' Since England was suffering under post-war rationing, that comment went down like a lead balloon. It was after this that the couple went on the defensive about the jewels and may have contributed to the false or incomplete information that floated out.]
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 29, 2007, 01:54:58 PM
From Time magazine Oct. 28, 1946 :

In the misty Berkshire dusk, while the Windsors were in London (he at the Palace to see the King, she, excluded, to have tea with an unnamed friend), a nimble burglar had slipped past two Scotland Yard detectives, clambered up a drainpipe at rambling, red brick Ednam Lodge and gained entrance to the Windsors' white-walled bedroom. He went to a Gladstone bag, removed a brown leather jewel case. From a small leather box on the Duke's bedside table, he plucked a valuable watch. Two hundred yards away, he stopped, picked through the jewel case, discarded some inexpensive hatpins. Then he drove away. According to the Duchess, he had stolen every jewel she owned except those she had on. The loss: (Windsor's estimate) $80,000.

At week's end, those few clear facts had been culled out of the mad confusion of the world press. In London, the Daily Mail fell overboard, estimated the value of the loot at $2 million. U.S. papers wildly reported that two socialite women were under suspicion, and that the Duchess had stored part of her million-dollar collection in a safe-deposit vault. The Duchess regretfully denied that one: ". . . It was stupid. I've been kicking myself all over the place." The Duchess was asked to describe the basis on which she selected jewels to match her costumes. She said: "A fool would know that with tweeds or other daytime clothes one wears gold arid with evening clothes one wears platinum." Among the missing was her famous diamond stork-shaped clip; a pair of diamond and sapphire earrings; a 58.2 carat aquamarine ring.

Although the chic Duchess was calm, the proud, pathetic little Duke was blazing mad. His never-good chance of a Government job (he wanted the Governor Generalship of Australia) had been crushed between the rollers of Fleet Street's presses.

An $80,000 jewel collection stood for the kind of life no longer popular with austerity ridden Britons or Australian socialists.

Said Windsor: "I don't think I will play very good golf this afternoon."
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on June 30, 2007, 03:54:25 AM
Even the Duke and Duchess must have had some awareness that the contents of her jewel case and its value were starkly at odds with the economic climate in Britain at that time.

It's worth remembering that all of these jewels, worth a huge amount of money, were amassed in a relatively short space of time.  To the British public, whose memory of the Abdication crisis was still fresh, it must have been a fresh reminder of the lengths that David had gone to in order to indulge Wallis........
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on June 30, 2007, 06:22:09 AM
I guess the sapphire engagement bracelet and the "Kelly Klein-tsaria" pearl necklace was not in the jewel  box as the were  sold at auction.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on June 30, 2007, 10:27:43 AM
Thank Dog for that.  Now we are all free to fight over them endlessly.

But if the tsaria pearls are the ones that came from Queen Mary 'as a final forgiving gesture' Wallis/David wouldn't have yet had them in their possession.  Or are the tsaria pearls the other ones?

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/Wallispearls.jpg)

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/Wallispearls2.jpg)

I can never seem to keep these two necklaces straight in my head. 

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/fools2.jpg)

I adore the way Wallis is wearing the pendant off centre in this picture.  I'm totally going to steal that look.  Of course, I would have to steal pearls too. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on June 30, 2007, 07:47:33 PM
With reference to her earrings: I have a pair that the base is identical with added "waterfall" dangles attached.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on July 01, 2007, 08:51:01 AM
Culme Rayner doesn't give us any specific information as to which of these necklaces came from the Duke's mother.

However, the top necklace with the pendant is attributed to Cartier, but no date of purchase is listed.  These pearls are natural and therefore likely to be the ones that came from Queen Mary?

The pearls in the bottom necklace are cultured and are from Van Cleef and Arpels, dated 1964, when they were specially strung for the Duchess..........
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on July 01, 2007, 09:13:38 AM
Culme Rayner doesn't give us any specific information as to which of these necklaces came from the Duke's mother.

However, the top necklace with the pendant is attributed to Cartier, but no date of purchase is listed.  These pearls are natural and therefore likely to be the ones that came from Queen Mary?

The pearls in the bottom necklace are cultured and are from Van Cleef and Arpels, dated 1964, when they were specially strung for the Duchess..........

I wonder what color the earrings in the above picture are?  Gold or silver or stones?  This is a black and white picture so I thinks the earrings were worn for style effect.

I cannot imagine anything looking correct with the peral necaklaces except pearl earrings in a color photograph.

TampaBay

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on July 01, 2007, 08:46:56 PM
Culme Rayner doesn't give us any specific information as to which of these necklaces came from the Duke's mother.

However, the top necklace with the pendant is attributed to Cartier, but no date of purchase is listed.  These pearls are natural and therefore likely to be the ones that came from Queen Mary?

The pearls in the bottom necklace are cultured and are from Van Cleef and Arpels, dated 1964, when they were specially strung for the Duchess..........

I appreciate the clarification Martyn. 
I have delved into The Windsor Style and looked up the pearl necklaces there.  Menkes has them pictured slightly differently:

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/wallismorepearls.jpg)

The caption reads:

"The priceless central string of 28 graduated natural pearls with oval diamond clasp was a gift from Queen Mary - a final gesture of reconciliation to her beloved son and his wife she never knew.  The second outside string of 29 cultured pearls came from Van Cleef & Arpels in Paris in 1964; its attached baroque pearl pendant was re-set by Cartier in 1950."

Now, since the pendant is attached to the Van Cleef & Arpels necklace in this photo does that mean it was not a part of the gift from Queen Mary but was a separate acquisition from Cartier at some point? 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ashdean on July 02, 2007, 06:49:36 AM
Culme Rayner doesn't give us any specific information as to which of these necklaces came from the Duke's mother.

However, the top necklace with the pendant is attributed to Cartier, but no date of purchase is listed.  These pearls are natural and therefore likely to be the ones that came from Queen Mary?

The pearls in the bottom necklace are cultured and are from Van Cleef and Arpels, dated 1964, when they were specially strung for the Duchess..........

I wonder what color the earrings in the above picture are?  Gold or silver or stones?  This is a black and white picture so I thinks the earrings were worn for style effect.

I cannot imagine anything looking correct with the peral necaklaces except pearl earrings in a color photograph.

TampaBay


I think the earrings were more likely to be a ruby or sapphire or emerald bead cluster with brilliant caps..
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on July 04, 2007, 11:16:06 AM
Wallis always blows my mind.  Here is a person who did not inherit many gift from the gods in the looks or figure department, yet she always managed to look great!

I have studied her pictures for hours looking for style secrets and always discover somthing new.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: dmitri on July 07, 2007, 11:16:11 AM
I certainly think Wallis, Duchess of Windsor had style. She did the monarchy a great favour marrying the former Edward VIII and removing him from the scene. He really was an unsuitable King. I think she should be admired as she never broke up any marriage of his and no children were ever harmed. I do think it is sad they never had children. Their dogs seemed to play the part. I felt very sorry for her after his death and her prolonged illness was so tragic. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: miki_nastya on August 05, 2007, 02:50:36 PM
 Its just me or in the movie "Bertie and Elizabeth" the actress who played Wallis look a ot like her?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 05, 2007, 08:17:12 PM
No...She did not look like Wally at all. Anyway the actress who played Cookie was too thin to be crediable. Someone think Toni Collecte before slimming down would be much more like her.  ::)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 05, 2007, 08:57:44 PM
Amber Rose Sealey as Wallis

(http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/bertie/images/whoswho_wallis.jpg)

Juliet Aubrey as Elizabeth

(http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/bertie/images/whoswho_elizabeth.jpg)

What was up with 'Queen Mary's' hair?

(http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/bertie/images/whoswho_queenmary.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: dmitri on August 05, 2007, 10:04:42 PM
The late Queen Mother was not so large in the 1920s and was really quite tiny. She did become larger during the war years. Later she became much thinner. I can remember seeing her many times in London in her later years. She really was quite a character and greatly loved. The series on Bertie and Elizabeth was really quite good.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 05, 2007, 11:47:08 PM
I think Juliet looks more like Marie Louise than Cookie !  :D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: dmitri on August 06, 2007, 07:25:59 AM
Eric you are a shocker. I thought the actress who played Wallis Simpson was rather good. I once saw an interview with the real Duchess of Windsor and her manner was very similar. She was rather loud and gauche. She would have never been suitable as a Queen.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 06, 2007, 07:55:22 PM
I think Jane Seymour did a better job than she. Indeed I was shocked to see Juliet played the Queen Mother as Audrey Hepburn.  :o
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: dmitri on August 06, 2007, 10:44:31 PM
Jane Seymour and Anthony Andrews in that dreadful mini-series? I can still remember Jane Seymour's latex neck additions wobbling .. it was hilarious and her performance was terrible. Anthony Andrews always looked like he was constipated. Far better was Cynthia Harris in "Edward and Mrs.Simpson".
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 07, 2007, 04:34:27 AM
Not according to Lady Diana Cooper. She said "Cynthia Harris was all wrong playing her as the Southern Belle, Wallis was hard !"
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Byron on August 07, 2007, 06:16:10 AM
Jane Seymour and Anthony Andrews in that dreadful mini-series? I can still remember Jane Seymour's latex neck additions wobbling .. it was hilarious and her performance was terrible. Anthony Andrews always looked like he was constipated. Far better was Cynthia Harris in "Edward and Mrs.Simpson".

Anthony Andrews was ok in Brideshead, he had the snobbish thing going, but he never grew as an actor, it seems that all his roles just where Brideshead revisited all over again.  ::)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Byron on August 07, 2007, 06:19:27 AM
I saw a documentary with Wallis and she seems and behaves as a real tough American and not a “southern bell” at all, where did that come from.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: dmitri on August 07, 2007, 07:10:11 AM
Baltimore. Harris was quite hard. She knew how to manipulate.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 07, 2007, 07:18:23 AM
Wallis was very much NYC and Palm Beach Cafe socirty.

However, when it came to entertainng, Wallis understood Southern hospitality.

I would give anything to have attended one of her dinner parties-even as a fly on the wall.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: dmitri on August 07, 2007, 07:45:32 AM
Yes she was quite different from the other women in the 1930s in London. It was not so much that she was American. It was that she was twice divorced with two former husbands living. That was just not possible in the Anglican church at the time. She had also been a touch careless in communicating with people that were not to be trusted. Edward VIII of course had once been quite popular in the 1920s. By the time he became King he really was totally bored with it all. Wallis gave him a way out. People should thank her for ridding the monarchy of a King who really was a liability. They made each other happy and didn't do a bad job in the Bahamas when he was Governor although there was one scandal during their stay there. Wallis and Edward mellowed considerably as they got older and the royal family even warmed to them gradually. There were private visits to Paris by various members and The Queen made quite a public visit to her Uncle and his wife shortly before he died. There were even visits to Wallis after he died. Sadly she became very unwell and was beyond visits from her closest friends. The Queen though honoured the agreement and Wallis had her funeral at St.George's Chapel and is buried next to Edward behind Queen Victoria's mausoleum in the royal burial grounds. She never broke up a royal marriage and yet she was denied the title of royal highness. Of course people understand why. Another has the title and destroyed not only her own marriage but that of another and has the position and title to boot. It's a strange old world isn't it?     
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 07, 2007, 12:24:47 PM
Another has the title and destroyed not only her own marriage but that of another and has the position and title to boot. It's a strange old world isn't it?     

yes, a strange world indeed. However, it is a different world, too. Camilla will never acheive the heights of "fame" and attention that Wallis garnered during her decades in the limelight. Wallis had style and and elegant panache that would be fairly impossible for camilla to come close to duplicating. so, while it is a strange world and Wallis never had the title, heaven is the great equalizer and I am sure Wallis is looking down with a regal smirk on her charming face.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: dmitri on August 07, 2007, 02:40:12 PM
You may well be right as Wallis was able to travel the world and not be confined by royal protocol. She had her own court in Paris where she reigned supreme until her own health deteriorated and by then none of it mattered.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on August 07, 2007, 03:27:55 PM
yes, a strange world indeed. However, it is a different world, too. Camilla will never acheive the heights of "fame" and attention that Wallis garnered during her decades in the limelight. Wallis had style and and elegant panache that would be fairly impossible for camilla to come close to duplicating. so, while it is a strange world and Wallis never had the title, heaven is the great equalizer and I am sure Wallis is looking down with a regal smirk on her charming face.

More and more people now think that Prince Charles has no intention of honouring the statement he made on his marriage to Camilla that she will be known as the 'Princess Consort' when he ascends the throne but will be 'Queen Camilla' in the full sense of the term.  If so, why would Wallis be looking down with a regal smirk on her charming face?  She may have bagged a king but it seems like Camilla has bagged a king and the title to go with it!  This will far usurp anything Wallis achieved!  ;)   
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: dmitri on August 07, 2007, 03:36:07 PM
Some people thing all Charles got was the baggage. I wouldn't be so unkind though.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 07, 2007, 03:58:52 PM
yes, a strange world indeed. However, it is a different world, too. Camilla will never acheive the heights of "fame" and attention that Wallis garnered during her decades in the limelight. Wallis had style and and elegant panache that would be fairly impossible for camilla to come close to duplicating. so, while it is a strange world and Wallis never had the title, heaven is the great equalizer and I am sure Wallis is looking down with a regal smirk on her charming face.

More and more people now think that Prince Charles has no intention of honouring the statement he made on his marriage to Camilla that she will be known as the 'Princess Consort' when he ascends the throne but will be 'Queen Camilla' in the full sense of the term.  If so, why would Wallis be looking down with a regal smirk on her charming face?  She may have bagged a king but it seems like Camilla has bagged a king and the title to go with it!  This will far usurp anything Wallis achieved!  ;)   

yes, camilla may well ultimately have the title of 'queen' but she'll be amone of the few who may relish in it and will live in her own fantasy world that creates more laughs than lauds. It'll be like John Wayne winning the academy award for True Grit; what a joke, but they gave it to him because HE needed the sheepskin to prove something to himself and his own psyche. While Wallis did not get the title, she wasn't grading her own paper either. Very easy for Camilla to pillow talk her way into getting what she wants when her spouse makes the decision, especially when the climate is very changed vs 1936. Wallis was a celeb; Camilla is a sidekick, IMO, to a man who wishes he had some celebrity. I suspect Wallis, along with her smirk, is saying in a very Dietrich-esque way...'oh puuuulleeeeease !'
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 07, 2007, 04:29:18 PM
What on earth gives you the impression that Camilla will relish being Queen?? When has she ever implied that?? At 60 I wouldn't be at all suprised if she didn't just want a quieter life.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 07, 2007, 07:53:24 PM
Well...She certainly like the perks. Camilla was given a special tour during the tiara exhibition in the V&A in 2002, while the Duchess of Devonshire had to wait in line. She told a friend "inspecting her future digs !". (Camilla wasn't married to Charles then, but still given special treatment).  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 07, 2007, 08:43:57 PM
Not that this is the Camila thread but what does that comment mean? 'Inspecting the future digs'? 'Digs' implies a home or residence--she was at the V&A, a museum.  ???
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 08, 2007, 08:14:13 PM
I think what she meant was future poccessions. At that time, Camilla was still only a "mistress" but thuus given special treatment over the Duchess of Devonshire.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on August 29, 2007, 11:10:13 AM
I thought I would bump this thread up by asking the questions:  Whom do you have the most sympathy for Wallis or Camilla?

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on August 29, 2007, 04:03:56 PM
I would have to say Camilla.  By agreeing to marry Charles (aka 'Arthur' at certain pivotal times), she has said goodbye to her own life basically.  She now has a husband who loves her but, by his nature and position, is domineering and a position she must know she shouldn't really be in - a long term mistress who replaced a much loved royal whose crown she will wear.  She will never be completely accepted by the public and will forever be at the mercy of the savage British press. 

The Windsors at least had the freedom to live as they wanted (though Edward claimed he wanted a 'proper job') and the public hatred of Wallis seemed to evaporate - probably because they were not allowed back into England for a many years afterward.

Both women chose to marry these men so I don't feel 'sorry' for them as such, but Camilla has a far more difficult road ahead of her than Wallis ever did, in my opinion.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on August 29, 2007, 05:17:06 PM
I agree Grace.   Camilla is on the front line - a position, I believe, not of her choosing.   She is handling it well considering she was pushing 60 when her entire life was turned upside down - the only constant being her new husband and long-time lover.   She has come along way since the day she tentatively walked down those endless steps at St George's Chapel, Windsor.

The Duchess of Windsor might never have been given an HRH, but she and her husband appeared to live a reasonably contended life and he had a personal freedom which the Prince of Wales cannot imagine.   Of course the intervention of the war impacted on their relationship with the UK.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Mari on August 30, 2007, 02:33:20 AM
Interesting here's my take:
Wallis....why? I know that Americans at that time were really naive about marrying into titles and especially the Royal Family. She would have seen this as a great Adventure and Fairy Tale of the strongest kind.  The outrage ,the uproar and hostility toward her would have been so surprising and the fact that the Family immediate never accepted her... that they were put into a very comfortable but still an exile.

She had to be happy...She had the Man who loved her...that would be forever the Expectation. I imagine shouldering his Disappointments exp. the Day he found out they weren't going to call her Your Royal Highness I have read he cried. Of course He would have taken that very personally...i

She was used to a lot of freedom and used to leaving when She was unhappy and now after he abdicated a Throne it was till Death.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 30, 2007, 02:09:41 PM
To me, Wallis deserves more sympathy while Camilla is more the sympathic character.

Both women burst onto the scene, knew what they wanted, and fought for it.

Wallis got sidelined because of "rules" imposed by a system foreign to her and controlled by traditions and the polictics of the day, as well as inter family hostility. So, her life was forever altered because of what others did to her.

Camilla, pitifully, was party to a breach of tran-snational, trans-religious, trans-cultural marriage protocol that SHE had the opportunity to control, and chose the path she did. Her destiny is the veritable "you made your bed, now sleep in it" for which I have little sympathy, but some level of pity. To me, her whole demeanor wreaks of 'the other woman', with no sense of remorse or shame. More than Diana (who was a mere teenager when she got married), Camilla had been around the block so many times she had no treads left on the sides of her tires and knew EXACTLY what was in store. She can't even claim the mafia-wife-syndrome of 'I don't know anything about my husband's business, but what do you think about my gorgeous new diamonds?'. Everything negative, she did to herself.

Wallis, on the other hand, defrayed and overcame the long-term animosity dumped on her by the royal family and their loyalists. She became an icon and celebrity in her own right, garnering the awe from the worlds of art, fashion, society, and politics. The large snub her in-laws gave her was only to cause pain, which it did, but she rose valiantly to overcome. "The only unforgiveable sin is deliberate cruelty...", and I agree. Hence, Wallis has my sympathy vote, indeed.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: dmitri on August 31, 2007, 08:56:31 AM
I have more sympathy for Wallis. Camilla knew what she wanted and now has it. Wallis never gained what Edward wanted for her. Wallis was also far more chic.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 31, 2007, 09:36:06 AM
Edward wasn't the only one that wanted it. Wallis was desperate for the title of Queen or at least HRH. She never lived that down. I have to say there is a lot of hypocrisy going on here. Wallis was a married women when she became involved with Edward (she stabbed Lady Furness in the back) and wasn't she carrying on with a used car salesman at the time she was seeing Edward??!!

I think I know who I prefer.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: dmitri on September 01, 2007, 10:11:17 AM
Yes Wallis was far more decent. She did not break up any marriage of Edward or affect any children. That counts for a lot in my book!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on September 01, 2007, 01:31:27 PM
Dmitri have you forgotten that Ernest Simpson divorced Dorothea to marry Wallis in 1928? She also stabbed poor Thelma in the back by becoming Edwards mistress.

Clearly Wallis did break up a marriage ;) She also had affairs when married to her first husband Win. I really wouldn't call Wallis "Decent". :)

I rest my case. ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Beautiful B.C on September 01, 2007, 07:35:07 PM
I'm now on a search to find proof that Wallis broke up Ernest and Dorothea marriage. As to date I have not read anything conclusive. The same for the Guy Marcus Trundle affair. I have read the articles on the affair and the ones that debunk it. As for Thelma, in 1934 on her way back to England after her trip to the States, she had an affair with Prince Ali Khan on broad the, "Bremen."  Her devotion for the Prince seems a bit thin. I do believe Wallis and her affairs while married to Win happened when they were separated. Again, I shall search for documented proof.

Don't you think that Wallis wanted the title of HRH because of and for Edward.  Please don't get me wrong I'm not taking away from the fact that she would have enjoyed the title herself. It was not just a slap in her face but, one would have to acknowledge, a bigger slap to Edward.

Wallis and Camilla - Wallis has my sympathy.

I look forward to many more discussions on this forum. I have been reading along with you for a few years and I am happy to be writing among you now.

Cheers
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: dmitri on September 01, 2007, 11:04:14 PM
Wallis definitely had more class.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on September 02, 2007, 02:49:48 AM
Don't you think that Wallis wanted the title of HRH because of and for Edward.  Please don't get me wrong I'm not taking away from the fact that she would have enjoyed the title herself. It was not just a slap in her face but, one would have to acknowledge, a bigger slap to Edward.

I agree with you BeautifulB.C. - I think Wallis was an ambitious woman for social position, clothes, jewels, a wonderful home etc. but not for a royal title particularly, other than for the sake of David - she acknowledged herself before she married him she had virtually no idea of how the royal system worked anyway. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Beautiful B.C on September 02, 2007, 11:07:08 AM
Grace, I agree with you completely and you too Dmitri. Her social position,clothes,jewels and wonderful homes became her full time job. She carried them all out with such unique style and class. There was a youtube post awhile back of an intreview done with the Duke and Duchess - what a treat!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Beautiful B.C on September 03, 2007, 06:07:19 PM
Just a quick foot note to the above statement. I believe Wallis took taking care of Edward very seriously as well. She made sure his homes were comfortable and beautiful, as he was accustomed too - that his days were full and busy, although to not the degree as when he was Prince or King. I also believe she made him very happy during the greater part of their marriage. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: dmitri on September 04, 2007, 02:18:13 AM
Yes I agree totally with you. Wallis did have a lot of class. I think that history will treat her far more kindly in the future than Camilla.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on September 04, 2007, 03:49:26 AM
I also doubt Wallis would have bought a home of her own as a 'bolthole' - incidentally costing the British tax payer £2,500,000 (i.e. $5,000,000) a year to protect.   Also the British tax payer had to pay for the construction of a house in the grounds where security service personnel on can stay.   I also doubt that Wallis would have taken several holidays a year without David.

These are changed days, but I think for Wallis Simpson Duchess of Windsor, David the former King Edward VIII was much easier to live with and much less difficult to handle than Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall will experience with Charles, the Prince of Wales.

Times have changed, but these facts might be worth reflecting upon when comparing the two women or the two marriages.   

Wallis was unconditionally adored by her husband.   Camilla is adored by her husband - on his terms.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: dmitri on September 04, 2007, 04:09:02 AM
Yes it is quite contemptuous of the British public that they had to fork out even more to build a security building on a property not even owned by the taxpayer. If this was not bad enough Camilla even had her own food trucked in when she was in hospital, a hospital where both The Queen and the late Queen Mother never had any qualms about eating the food on offer.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on September 04, 2007, 08:30:55 AM
What a great idea, Tampa.  Such an interesting notion.

I have to start by saying that I don't think that either of these women either need or would want our sympathy.  Compared to the lot in life of most people, the existences of these two women are most enviable.

I don't think that any sympathy should be expended on the Duchess of Cornwall.  all in all, she has done pretty well in life, all things considered.  And if having to deal with a pampered, egotistical, insular husband is the price for what she has gained, then I am sure that she would agree that the deal was a good one.

The same could very well be said about Wallis.

Where these women differ is in their appeal.  After so many years, the appeal and profile of Wallis appears different to what she might have enjoyed in the late 30's and 40's.  From our modern perspective, we can appreciate her taste and style, her wit and glamour; those who felt that she stole our King must be few in number now.

Camilla naturally is still perceived as the third party in the Wales marriage.  The woman who helped to choose Diana as wife for Charles because the the theory was that the latter could be 'managed'.  The woman who enjoyed the kudos of her royal connection with none of the responsibilities.  In short, 'the other woman'.

I am sure that in about seventy years or so, the negative perception of Camilla will have faded.  I do doubt that anyone will remember her for her style, wit or taste in the way that Wallis is remembered and even admired by some, but perhaps Camilla's legacy is more likely to be a feeling of general wonder at how she ever managed to snare a Prince in the first place......
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on September 04, 2007, 04:35:30 PM
Martyn - what a brilliant observation - and probably worthy of a thread of its own - What attracts/ed Charles The Prince of Wales to Camilla Shand?   Anyone think there is any mileage in this?

Its totally off-topic here, but WOW has Martyn hit a nerve?

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: dmitri on September 05, 2007, 06:32:15 AM
I think love must be totally blind as I cannot imagine what attracts Charles to Camilla. To think he could have had anybody in the world and he chose her. Her must have rather unusual tastes to say the least.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Beautiful B.C on September 05, 2007, 12:35:40 PM
For four decades Wallis made the, "Best Dressed Listed" - equaled by no other woman. In the 1960's Diana Vreeland managed to convince Wallis to donate many of her gowns to the Costume Institute at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City - over the next decade dozens of suits and dresses made their way to New York, including her wedding dress by Mainbocher. Was a book ever produced to document these garments?
Wallis also loved costume jewelry. Stanley Hagler designed a fabulous bracelet in the early '50's. I've seen the replica but I was wondering if any one had a picture of the original? It was a hinged bracelet encrusted with seed pearls - with a flower motif design, rather stunning. I found it fasinating how Wallis', "real" jewels metamophosed from their original settings into redesigned gems - it ensured she remained at the height of fashion.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on September 06, 2007, 08:09:11 AM
Martyn - what a brilliant observation - and probably worthy of a thread of its own - What attracts/ed Charles The Prince of Wales to Camilla Shand?   Anyone think there is any mileage in this?

Its totally off-topic here, but WOW has Martyn hit a nerve?

tsaria

Thank you Tsaria - too kind.

I'm not sure that such a thread is such a good idea; as we have seen things can get heated when discussing the duchess, probably in much the same way as people discussing Wallis at the time of the Abdication.........what do you think?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on September 06, 2007, 11:32:34 AM
I agree. Such a cheek to say Charles must have unusual tastes because he has chosen Camilla. Who are they to judge.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on September 06, 2007, 12:31:09 PM
I agree. Such a cheek to say Charles must have unusual tastes because he has chosen Camilla. Who are they to judge.

Agree with what?

And it's not about judging, it's about discussion.  If Tsaria thinks that it is a fit topic for discussion, then that's good enough for me.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on September 06, 2007, 12:51:13 PM
Exactly. Discussions fine. But to say someone must have have unusal tastes because they have chosen a certain person to be there wife is awfully judgemental.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on September 06, 2007, 04:13:26 PM
Taken in isolation perhaps so.

However, the discussion relating to the Prince's attraction for C P-B is a valid one, as to some the appeal is not immediately evident, and to some it may never be so.  An exploration of this might help some to understand just what it is that binds them together, or it might simply confirm the ideas already held about them.

Either way, it would be a discussion.  Plus, it might be interesting.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on September 06, 2007, 08:02:46 PM

And it's not about judging, it's about discussion. 

To all Posters.

Is this not the whole point of the Ally Pally Forum;  Freedom of Speech in a polite and refined armosphere.

Tampabay
Title: Japanese royal Visit in 1922?
Post by: nerilka on September 20, 2007, 03:46:28 PM
Hello! does any one have any paticulars about this Photo or more similar to this? I love Japanese history and British History, so I really like this!It was Taken in 1922, So it was a state visit right? Also, that  hat is wild!

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Empress_Sadako_with_Prince_of_Wales_in_1922.jpg)
Title: Re: Japanese royal Visit in 1922?
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 20, 2007, 04:25:18 PM
The Prince of Wales visited Japan in 1922 to celebrate a treaty between Japan and Britain.
Title: Re: Japanese royal Visit in 1922?
Post by: eejm on September 20, 2007, 05:38:17 PM
I'm guessing the man with the Prince of Wales is the future Emperor Hirohito, but who is the woman?  Hirohito and his wife were not married until 1924.

Although the PoW was never a large man by any means, he looks very thin in this picture.
Title: Re: Japanese royal Visit in 1922?
Post by: grandduchessella on September 20, 2007, 08:43:34 PM
I've have some info on it (I have the Illustrated London News for 1922) but can't access it right now.

What I can say is that it was part of a series of escalating visits. Prince Hirohito represented his country for the 1911 Coronation, Prince Arthur of Connaught (Jr) visisted Japan and in 1918 Prince Hirohito returned the visit.

When the POW reached Japan, he was greeted by about 1/2 million people and cries of 'Banzai' and multiple playings of the British National Anthem.

Amongst his stops was one to the city of Nikko which the papers described as " Most Beautiful In All the Empire. It contained a famous temple and a memorial to the founder fo the Shogunate. It was a "magnificent Work of Japanese Art" and contained 20 miles of Buddhist shrines. In an incident that never would've happened to his father or grandfather, he was caught without the proper article of clothing. The old-fashioned ceremonial frock coat and Japanese official reverence for that beskirted garment, almost forced the Prince of Wales to remain on the outside looking in at the royal garden party given in his honor at the ShinJuku palace.

While it was 100 miles away from him, a severe earthquake (the worst there in 30 years) hit Japan while the Prince was still in the country. (He expressed disappointment at missing the sensation.) He also missed a fire at his hotel in Tokyo--he was at a garden party at the time. The fire destroyed the older portion of the famous Imperial hotel, and damaged tile temporary annex to the hotel. There wa at least one death and 300, mostly members of the staff of the Prince of Wales, and visitors who came to Tokyo and from various parts of Japan in connection with the visit of the prince, were rendered homeless. Their effects were partly destroyed.

His visit lasted 4 weeks. A film was made of the visit which was shown at Covent Garden. The King and Queen were also out of the country at the time, visiting Belgium.

The female could be the Empress (about 38 at the time) and is ID'd as such on the wikipedia page (which has the photo) but they're not always correct. The face shape seems different from the future Empress (though she and Hirohito were engaged in 1919 according to Wikipedia).

Here is the Empress

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Empress_Teimei_at_coronation_in_1912.jpg)
Title: Re: Japanese royal Visit in 1922?
Post by: nerilka on September 20, 2007, 09:16:13 PM
Thank you! Very cool info! Such costume made you by default move slowly and elegantly, I would think 8) but your right, It dosen't look like her...It's hard to tell, but women in pic next to POW dosen't look 38 to me...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on November 09, 2007, 12:17:43 PM
Kindly posted by maryjo on the GREMB.  Some great pics.  Click on the first small picture for a gallery of larger images.
My rough understanding of Spanish would lead me to believe there is an exhibition of some type in Madrid.  Who wants to go and take notes and pictures for all of us?


http://www.hola.com//moda/joyas/2007/11/07/windsor-exposicion/ (http://www.hola.com//moda/joyas/2007/11/07/windsor-exposicion/)


I must add that I looooooove the tiara mock-up. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Mari on November 10, 2007, 01:54:56 AM
Quote
Specifically, it is a retrospective of the jewels that, in their day, were owned by the Duke of Windsor, Edward of England and Wallis Simpson.

Broaches, rings, necklaces ...made by Cartier between 1935 and 1956 and which are accompanied by graphic documents of the couple, as well as sketches of some of these pieces. For all lovers of luxury jewelry and they can be visited from yesterday the 7th until the next Nov. 23.
 They may see designs which after the death of the Duchess, in 1986, were owned  by Sotheby's. Subsequently, the Company put in the auction and they were acquired by Cartier.


I translated a condensed version (the important parts) of the Spanish as I read it!  The glasses are really unusual aren't they? I would love to see Wallis wearing them in a photograph if anyone has one.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on November 10, 2007, 05:55:07 AM

Specifically, it is a retrospective of the jewels that, in their day, were owned by the Duke of Windsor, Edward of England and Wallis Simpson.

The glasses are really unusual aren't they? I would love to see Wallis wearing them in a photograph if anyone has one.


I doubt there is a picture as thery are opera glasses.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: royal_netherlands on November 15, 2007, 02:20:59 PM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/29549.jpg)

The Duke and Duchess of Windsor in a rather nice portrait.
Wallis is wearing some nice jewellery and proofs again with this picture she is stylish, elegant and a woman with class.

A smile from Holland,

RN
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Beautiful B.C on November 16, 2007, 10:54:23 PM
What a lovely picture. Thank you for the post.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on November 19, 2007, 08:05:09 AM
That is a great image........I haven't seen that one before.

Walli's dress detail is a witty touch, in that it complements the shape of her ruby and diamond necklace.  I do think that hairstyle really suited her - she looks at ease and quite soft, in marked contrast to the occasionally brittle Wallis whom we sometimes see gazing out from her posed portraits.......
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Beautiful B.C on November 19, 2007, 07:14:56 PM
I was wondering if anyone had a picture of the bracelet that Wallis is wearing in the post? I can't make out which one it is? It's rather lovely.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on November 20, 2007, 08:20:35 AM
I was wondering if anyone had a picture of the bracelet that Wallis is wearing in the post? I can't make out which one it is? It's rather lovely.

Presumably it is the bracelet that is ensuite with the ruby and diamond necklace?  Wallis does not however seem to be wearing the earrings from this parure........
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Beautiful B.C on November 20, 2007, 01:39:50 PM
Thank you Martyn. I do so enjoy reading your posts - they are filled with style, charm and knowledge. I am still trying to place the bracelet -  I'm pretty sure it isn't the "Hold Tight" bracelet. Granted my eyes are not what they used to be.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ChristineM on November 20, 2007, 04:40:10 PM
Beautiful B.C. -

Martyn, is a stylish man in addition to being both charming and knowledgeable.   His contribution to this forum over the years has been invaluable - informative, witty, acutely observant, thought-provoking, all backed up with insight and erudition... and always worthwhile.

tsaria
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ashdean on November 21, 2007, 03:24:15 AM
I was wondering if anyone had a picture of the bracelet that Wallis is wearing in the post? I can't make out which one it is? It's rather lovely.

Presumably it is the bracelet that is ensuite with the ruby and diamond necklace?  Wallis does not however seem to be wearing the earrings from this parure........
The earrings in the pic were no doubt the original ones....which like so many other gems Wallis had reset later in her ceaseless quest for perfection and to be up to date!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Mari on November 21, 2007, 04:47:47 AM
There is a close up of this Ruby and Diamond necklace and Bracelet on page 3 of this thread. Rather lovely on Wallis....
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Martyn on November 21, 2007, 07:24:37 AM
Beautiful B.C. -

Martyn, is a stylish man in addition to being both charming and knowledgeable.   His contribution to this forum over the years has been invaluable - informative, witty, acutely observant, thought-provoking, all backed up with insight and erudition... and always worthwhile.

tsaria

Tsaria, Beautiful B.C. - thank you both so much - I'm blushing........and not really deserving of such fulsome praise, as there are many far more knowledgeable than I.

We all benefit from the contributions of our erudite and learned members here, but at the end of the day, it is the quality of the contributions of all that makes it so worthwhile participating here.......
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Beautiful B.C on November 23, 2007, 12:49:12 PM
Thank you Mari - It is the "Hold Tight" bracelet. Martyn, you are more then welcome and Tsaria, I agree with you 100%.
 I love all the black and white photos of Wallis dressed to the nines with all her glorious jewels, please keep them coming. Along with the coloured ones too!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lisa on July 23, 2008, 10:46:20 AM
Hi all!
I'm looking for the dresses of Wallis's trousseau, especially the gowns made by Mainbocher and Schiaparelli, except the weeding dress and the lobster dress.

Do you have any pictures/drawing/sketches of the outfits themselves or of the duchess wearing it?

Thanks!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: CHRISinUSA on July 24, 2008, 08:25:11 AM
yes, a strange world indeed. However, it is a different world, too. Camilla will never acheive the heights of "fame" and attention that Wallis garnered during her decades in the limelight. Wallis had style and and elegant panache that would be fairly impossible for camilla to come close to duplicating. so, while it is a strange world and Wallis never had the title, heaven is the great equalizer and I am sure Wallis is looking down with a regal smirk on her charming face.

More and more people now think that Prince Charles has no intention of honouring the statement he made on his marriage to Camilla that she will be known as the 'Princess Consort' when he ascends the throne but will be 'Queen Camilla' in the full sense of the term.  If so, why would Wallis be looking down with a regal smirk on her charming face?  She may have bagged a king but it seems like Camilla has bagged a king and the title to go with it!  This will far usurp anything Wallis achieved!  ;)   

Frankly, when comparing the two, I think Wallis got the best end of the deal.  She had the man, the funds, the jewels, the clothes, the perks, yet NONE of the responsiblities and ALL of the freedoms. 

Yes, a Queen Camilla would have even better jewels, even more funds, more perks.  But, in contrast, she would have to spend her golden years hosting receptions and dinner parties for strangers, making witty small talk with ministers and foreign dignitaries, cutting ribbons and otherwise "putting on the show" - each and every day. 

Ironically enough, Wallis and Camilla would probably have preferred to trade places with each other's lot in life!  I could see Camilla preferring to spend the rest of her days at a chateau in the country, and Wallis preferring to get dressed up and putting on the show.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 25, 2008, 10:08:48 AM
Camilla was more of a country woman and less of a city girl like Diana and Wallis...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Le Roi Soleil on October 16, 2008, 08:35:27 AM
The Bahamian valet, in evening livery of the Bois de Boulogne, in the home of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, standing with their pug dogs - Mr. Disreali, Mr. Chu, Trooper, Imp, and Davy Crockett - on a Bessarabian carpet in a room with a Louis XIII chair, and an 18th century English console set with sunflowers and a crystal candelabra.1964
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p33/LeRoiSoleil_2006/buck_palace/duke%20of%20windsor/CN00031255.jpg)

Sotheby's auction of the contents of the Paris residence of the Duke Windsor

(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p33/LeRoiSoleil_2006/buck_palace/duke%20of%20windsor/0000330294-015.jpg)

(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p33/LeRoiSoleil_2006/buck_palace/duke%20of%20windsor/0000330294-016.jpg)

(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p33/LeRoiSoleil_2006/buck_palace/duke%20of%20windsor/0000330294-024.jpg)

(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p33/LeRoiSoleil_2006/buck_palace/duke%20of%20windsor/0000330294-023.jpg)

The Abdication Desk where King Edward VIII signed the Instrument of Abdication

(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p33/LeRoiSoleil_2006/buck_palace/duke%20of%20windsor/TheAbdicationDeskwhereKingEdward8th.jpg)



Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Le Roi Soleil on October 16, 2008, 08:36:20 AM
Does anyone can post photos of David's and Wallis' bedrooms at their Paris mansion, 4 Route du Champ d Entrainement
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 16, 2008, 11:40:23 AM
I think it wasin the Hugo Vickers book on their world.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Le Roi Soleil on December 03, 2008, 02:06:02 AM
Interesting info about the 18th-century french furniture and china that the Duke and Duchess gave to Versailles

http://versailles.forumculture.net/les-meubles-et-objets-d-art-f34/hommage-a-la-duchesse-de-windsor-t2103.htm (http://versailles.forumculture.net/les-meubles-et-objets-d-art-f34/hommage-a-la-duchesse-de-windsor-t2103.htm)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on December 03, 2008, 07:56:14 AM
Love the black and red oriental matching cabinets.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 03, 2008, 08:33:43 AM
They are indeed beautiful.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on December 04, 2008, 10:06:37 AM
Several pages of HQ photos of the Windsors and their home.

http://images.google.com/images?&hl=en&q=duchess++windsor+source:life&&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=20
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 04, 2008, 10:27:53 AM
Thanks ! lovely link and photos. They did lived tastefully...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Rani on January 01, 2009, 12:15:06 PM
I was a little bit shocked:

Munich, 1937

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/BE033703.jpg)

With Hitler
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 02, 2009, 12:06:39 PM
It was an official visit. The details of the gas chambers was not known then.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 02, 2009, 04:16:28 PM
It was an official visit. The details of the gas chambers was not known then.

That's because there were no gas chambers in 1937. The 'final solution' holocaust, largely via gas chambers came into effect in 1943. Prior to that time, exterminations in concentration camps were carried out in other murderous ways.

The murders in the concentration camps were started in 1942. So, when Wallis and David visited Hitler in 1937, it was a year after the very successful Olympics, two years before the start of the war, and during the period that England was cow-towing to Hitler.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 03, 2009, 11:11:26 AM
Not to condone Wallis & David, but a lot of those suffered under the economic depression after WW I saw Hitler was a great success in turning a country around. In fact quite a lot of British Aristocracy (Like two of the Mitford sisters (Diana & Unity)) admired Hitler. The truth had not came out yet. Jews were still allowed to leave Germany.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: tom_romanov on January 03, 2009, 03:42:49 PM
I agree with Eric although Hitler was an bad, even evil man, Germany was in a desperate time, the people were looking for a solution any soultion and in the early days before the war HItler was seen, by some, as the savior of Germany. Also I do believe there are more photos of Edward & Wallis and Hitler ( one where Wallis is shaking his hand? )

A interesting fact (interesting, but , useless ) - Hitler recieved more fanmail than the beatles and madonna put together!

anyway back to the Duke & Duchess....
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 03, 2009, 03:51:47 PM
in the early days before the war HItler was seen, by some, as the savior of Germany.

..including the likes of Winston Churchill, Charles Lindbergh, and Joseph Kennedy, to name a few.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: tom_romanov on January 03, 2009, 03:54:30 PM
well I never knew about Charles lindbergh! thank you HerrKaiser , I guess you do learn something new everday!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 03, 2009, 04:06:57 PM
Yes...I am tired that everybody thought the Duke & Duchess of Windsor acted in opposition to everybody, but in truth there was strong support for appeasement (even those like Baldwin & Chamberlain who plotted to push Edward off the throne). The Duke of Wondsor belonged to the generation who saw war and tried to stop it at all costs. He wasmisguided but not evil that is all.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: tom_romanov on January 03, 2009, 04:13:51 PM
I agree, I often imagine that if you actually met Edward & Wallis they were nicer than the public speculated e.g don't judge a book by it's cover
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 03, 2009, 04:19:03 PM
Wallis was a poor girl turned rich, it was hard for her to relate to others (apart from her Aiunt Bessie). Edward VIII was a self-centered man groomed by courtiers who see him mas their future. When he abdicated they all dropped him (including her beloved brother George and Dickie Mountbatten of course). He became insecure about his pocessions and sought to make money. At the end they became pitiable figures.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: tom_romanov on January 03, 2009, 04:23:35 PM
with their pug dogs
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 03, 2009, 04:26:01 PM
Whom they were devoted to.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: tom_romanov on January 03, 2009, 04:37:37 PM
hehe  :) didn't they have little Cartier statues of them? like Tatiana had Faberge ones of Oritino ? I'm sure I've seen a picture somewhere....
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 04, 2009, 11:15:35 AM
Would love to see it !
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: tom_romanov on January 04, 2009, 11:52:42 AM
I'll have it for tomorrow
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 04, 2009, 12:30:38 PM
Great !
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on January 04, 2009, 04:13:04 PM
Here are the Duke & Duchess with their actual pugs:

(http://eppsnet.com/~paulepps/images/duke-and-duchess.jpg)

(http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/3302919.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=BAA3E61C514E7EC62A3DD52396AD5830A55A1E4F32AD3138)

(http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/3294846.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=C06051C8BA2A5A2C03E4D6730BFC30A5A55A1E4F32AD3138)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 05, 2009, 08:44:15 AM
Cannot see them...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: tom_romanov on January 05, 2009, 02:29:37 PM
here is that picture I promised - "http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/img139.jpg"
(you can see two dogs on either side of the table)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: belianis on January 13, 2009, 03:04:29 PM
From what I have read about Edward VIII, it seems that he was never happy about becoming King and Emperor; certainly his portraits from when he was Prince of Wales always show him with sad eyes and with an obviously strained smile that communicates neither joy nor satisfaction with his situation.
Why, then, didn't he resign his position as crown prince when he still had the chance? He had plenty of brothers, so the survival of the Windsor line did not depend exclusively on him.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 13, 2009, 04:11:53 PM
Responsibilty. One does not disgard that easily...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on January 13, 2009, 04:16:00 PM
Responsibilty. One does not disgard that easily...

Well, he did!

Perhaps as Prince of Wales, he thought his father, King George V, would go on forever.  Often we think this about our parents - that they are invincible - even though we know deep down they are not.  Edward tended to ignore those aspects of his life he didn't want to face up to.  This was likely one of them, in my opinion.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 13, 2009, 04:22:01 PM
I don't think one should judge him too harshly. He had wanted to wed the woman he loved. What iswrong with that. The people actually supported him ,but the politions said no. It was a coup.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on January 13, 2009, 04:30:27 PM
I don't think one should judge him too harshly. He had wanted to wed the woman he loved. What iswrong with that. The people actually supported him ,but the politions said no. It was a coup.

It could be said that his responsibility was to put duty before personal happiness.  Not an easy thing.  The people supported Edward in that they wanted him to remain their King but did they really want him with Mrs. Simpson as future Queen?  And did they really know at the time that his devotion to duty was not what it should have been?  Very doubtful.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Le Roi Soleil on January 14, 2009, 04:53:54 AM
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p33/LeRoiSoleil_2006/fort/Mill_bedroom.jpg)

Duchess of Windsor's  bedroom on the attic floor of the Moulin De La Tuilerie ("The Mill")
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: mcdnab on January 14, 2009, 09:15:56 AM
Support for Edward VIII and his wish to marry Mrs Simpson did exist in large numbers amidst the populace as some released records have shown. However Edward's popularity as Prince of Wales and as King was a combination of his own talents in public (he was like his sister in law very good with people) and in his last weeks as King largely whipped up by the Beaverbrook press (who were anti Stanley Baldwin). It would be interesting to know how the unemployed miners and their families he visited in Wales would have felt if far from "summoning his ministers" and insisting "something must be done" on his return to London he was busy ordering yet more jewellery for Wallis and telling dinner party guests he "approved of splendour".

There is a problem with a fair assessment of him at this period because so many of his courtiers disapproved of him. Whilst his own section of society (Lady Cunard and her circle for example) adored him, another perhaps more traditional part of society deplored his behaviour (sacking his father's servants and behaving badly in their view). Whilst his tendency to modernity was admirable his other faults put almost everyone at court and in Government against him.

The main problem wasn't Mrs Simpson's character or her behaviour (the only people who really objected to her personally where the King's family - who didn't like the way she behaved towards him) it was the fact that she was twice divorced and that divorce still carried a deep social stigma.

Divorcee's weren't received at court and they couldn't remarry in the Church. Edward VIII was not only Head of the Church of England, but he ruled an Empire which still included Roman Catholic Ireland and Canada and Australia both with significant Roman Catholic populations - Baldwin was never able to make him see the problems he might cause by marrying a divorcee.

Once Edward determined to marry Wallis - even his supporters like Churchill urged him against it - and told Baldwin his intentions he had to act on the advice of his ministers and they were almost all opposed at home and abroad.  The Dominion telegrams whilst their opinions might have been directed by Baldwin were pretty clear - in fact the Australian Prime Ministers view was that it had gone too far and even if he would give Wallis up he'd damaged the monarchy so much he still should abdicate.

Personally I've always believed that the utterly spoilt and indulged man he was, he thought up to the last moment he could marry her and make her Queen Consort and Empress of India. But i've also thought the idea that he was forced by the cabinet into abdicating was myth, the chaos of the final weeks of the crisis don't suggest that the Government was "jockeying" him out of his throne - whilst granted that has largely been the arguement both the Windsors used in their memoirs, the same way they preferred to put the blame for their subsequent treatment on the two Queen's Mary and Elizabeth and depicting George VI as hen-pecked (rather ironic given the way the Duchess treated the Duke).
His subsequent behaviour was what largely destroyed his relationship with his family, though its true that his mother in particular could never understand why her son was willing to put his personal desires ahead of his duties and responsibilities as King.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 14, 2009, 11:27:39 AM
It is now been established that the common people far from oppose the marriage actually supported King Edward VIII in the matter of his personal happiness. It was the courtiers and people in the government that could not stand the fact that he wanted to marry Mrs Simpson. The government withhold facts from the king and made him believe that the people did not support him. Had there been a reforndum on the subject, Edward might have won. The tragedy was repeated in the case of Princess Margaret.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: mcdnab on January 15, 2009, 10:44:34 AM
Eric I don't doubt for one minute that the King had considerable support from ordinary people. There are numerous letters in the Windsor Archives and the PRO from people about it expressing their support and most people had had quite enough of Baldwin and his ageing government. But those letters and records are not a majority. Public opinion had had little time to form given that the British Press had censored any mention of Mrs Simpson until the Bishop of Bradford's "recall to religion" speech (widely misinterpreted as an attack on Edward VIII's relationship with Wallis) and that the subsequent crisis lasted such a short time in the public spotlight. It is therefore difficult to get an accurate portrayal of public opinion.
On the other hand we also have the "number" of unpleasant letters that the Duchess of Gloucester received after she and the Duke met the Windsor's in France in 1938 (another attempt to test public opinion).
It is also worth bearing in mind that for twenty years the British public (and the greater public in the dominions) had been treated to newspaper and newsreel reports that were glowing in their flattery of the Prince of Wales and glossed over everything that showed him in a rather less flattering way (which is why so many of his own and his father's courtiers didn't think much of him). His fondness for other men's wives (Freda Dudley Ward and Thelma Furness spring to mind) his pleasure in Cafe Society and his rather low boredom threshold (which for a future King Emperor was a problem - given that the role largely embraces a life of ritual boredom) had all made his parents, the court and significant sections of the government doubt his sincerity and his understanding of the constitutional role he was expected to fill.

On a personal note when we were doing this at school (more years than i care to remember) our teacher asked us to visit our elderly relatives who'd lived through the thirties and ask them about a variety of topics from the depression, to appeasement, to the abdication and the outbreak of war. My grandmother and her sisters  who in the thirties were young women living in Yorkshire were still 50 years later utterly opposed to the idea that their King should marry a divorcee - true we found a more diverse range of opinions when we visited a local Old People's home. I suspect that opinion was far more divided than official records allow.

I have little doubt that quite a number of politicians were glad to see the back of Edward VIII - the released records of Baldiwn's conversations with the King do suggest that Baldwin pushed him into a position where Edward was forced to tell the prime minister he intended to marry Mrs S, when she were free, therefore obliging him to accept his Government's advice on the matter. However it is also clear that Edward up to the last was prepared to use unconstitutional methods to get his own way on the matter - there was a lack of trust on both sides which were hampered by Baldwin's rigid view (backed by his cabinet) that the public wouldn't accept a "Queen with two living husbands" and Edward's view "that his private life was his private life". The Cabinet and Baldwin's attitude had been hardened by the way in which Edward behaved in his official duties following his father's death - his late hours, his obvious boredom on official occassions, his preferrences for certain foreign dignitaries over others, his dictats about foreign policy, the way he treated his staff, the way he'd treated his father's servants etc - all of that to a certain extent undermined and weakened his position as king when it came to the issue of marrying Mrs Simpson.

Was it a tragedy that he was forced to abdicate - we'll never really know what kind of King he would have made or what kind of Queen, Wallis would have made - no children though which would have made his reign almost pointless - his brother might have lived long enough to succeed him without the pressures of the Second World War which encouraged him to smoke and drink more either way his eventual heir would have been the present Queen. He had many strong points as did she - neither of them were particularly intellectual though and Edward like the rest of his family could suffer from extreme prejudices. One problem would have been the area of foreign policy in the lead up to the Second World War, he'd received a dressing down from his father over interferring in politics by giving a speech saying the Germans should be "our friends" a few years earlier, though I don't share the idea that either of them were particularly pro-nazi though he was pro-german. (dating to his visit to Germany in 1913 and like many of his generation a determination to avoid a repeat of the carnage of the 1st World War.) We might have had less pomp and circumstance a bit less of the archaic traditions of his father's court, but we'd have had a few redecorations of the Royal Palaces and a more Cafe Society circle than the Aristocratic Country House style of court that George VI and Queen Elizabeth created for themselves.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 15, 2009, 03:53:43 PM
Indeed. I think the situation wasnot as simple as it was. The people at court and government got it wrong. I think Wallis would have made an ok queen. Anyway she did not want to be Queen at all. Like Camilla Parker Bowles today, she just wanted to be with the King. In Denmark and Russia, they have the morganetic marriages.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on January 15, 2009, 06:36:09 PM
I don't think one should judge him too harshly. He had wanted to wed the woman he loved. What iswrong with that. The people actually supported him ,but the politions said no. It was a coup.

It could be said that his responsibility was to put duty before personal happiness.  Not an easy thing.  The people supported Edward in that they wanted him to remain their King but did they really want him with Mrs. Simpson as future Queen?  And did they really know at the time that his devotion to duty was not what it should have been?  Very doubtful.

You see I really think, aside from the whole nature of the British monarchy, it's basically a case of him giving up a job he only kind of wanted for his girlfriend. That's really what being king is, a job. A glamorous if rather difficult job you get because you happened to have been born into the right family at the right time.


People do things like that all the time. My mother is a modeling agent who once placed one of her girls in Paris. She signed a contract for five years and a lot of money from a French agency and my mom was expecting to get a nice mother agency fee off of it. A week after she left she found out her boyfriend couldn't get out of his job and come with her. So she took the next flight home and basically abandoned this really great opportunity that would've made her rich and famous so she could be with him. The got married shortly after and my mother found it really ironic that he ended up leaving her two years later for a younger and prettier model he met on a trip to New York. Random OT story aside, this was a girl who had dreamed her whole life of being a model and gone to hundreds of auditions and basically starved herself to achieve it. I highly doubt Edward VIII ever wanted to be king that much.

In fact, I'd bet if they had some sort of American Idol style auditions to be king Edward probably would've shown up ten minutes before they started seeing people, seen how long the line was, shrugged, and then walked away. If Edward VIII didn't believe in the whole divine right/royal duty thing his mother felt so strongly about then he probably just saw it not only as a job but as a job he didn't even want enough to make sacrifices for.

Throughout history there have been hundreds of pretenders to various thrones and succession wars where more than one person desperately wants to be king, but interestingly enough if you look at all the men who have been designated heir to the throne from birth and are expected to take over without conflict, most of them don't seem to want it all that much, especially in recent years.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 16, 2009, 09:19:55 AM
Yes the most recent being Prince William.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Leuchtenberg on January 16, 2009, 10:34:02 AM
I think Wallis would have made an ok queen. Anyway she did not want to be Queen at all. Like Camilla Parker Bowles today, she just wanted to be with the King.

HAHAHAHA.

You make them seem like quiet, unassuming, little homebodies.    Which is quite the opposite of their scheming and manipulative natures.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 16, 2009, 10:45:42 AM
And, they were hopeless "party people", not at all conservative, self effacing, humble devotees of public service.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on January 16, 2009, 10:56:42 AM
I think Wallis would have made an ok queen. Anyway she did not want to be Queen at all. Like Camilla Parker Bowles today, she just wanted to be with the King.

HAHAHAHA.

You make them seem like quiet, unassuming, little homebodies.    Which is quite the opposite of their scheming and manipulative natures.

Actually, Wallis's letters and the accounts of her friends at the time indicate she really didn't want to be Queen. She didn't want the responsibility. She would have rather been a morganatic wife, which wasn't legal in England, or just an official mistress, which the morals of the time wouldn't stand for and Edward didn't want anyway. Not to say she would've turned down the crown had it been offered to her, but I think she would've rather been with the king not as a queen that been with the king as queen.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 16, 2009, 01:38:03 PM
I think Wallis would have made an ok queen. Anyway she did not want to be Queen at all. Like Camilla Parker Bowles today, she just wanted to be with the King.

HAHAHAHA.

You make them seem like quiet, unassuming, little homebodies.    Which is quite the opposite of their scheming and manipulative natures.

Beautifully put Leuchtenberg.
For the Duke to refer to his own mother as an "ice-veined bitch" shows what a ghastly man he was. The only good thing he ever did was abdicate and be replaced by a wonderful King & Queen.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on January 16, 2009, 02:41:25 PM
Have to agree here with Eddieboy.  Edward exiting to make way for the stable (at least publicly) and dutiful King George VI and Queen Elizabeth was the best thing he ever did!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on January 16, 2009, 06:25:43 PM
I think Wallis would have made an ok queen. Anyway she did not want to be Queen at all. Like Camilla Parker Bowles today, she just wanted to be with the King.

HAHAHAHA.

You make them seem like quiet, unassuming, little homebodies.    Which is quite the opposite of their scheming and manipulative natures.

Beautifully put Leuchtenberg.
For the Duke to refer to his own mother as an "ice-veined bitch" shows what a ghastly man he was.

Well, to be fair, Queen Mary wasn't a very good mother to him and they didn't have a good relationship. She always took her husband's side over her son's and she refused to even meet Wallis Simpson. Part of it was the way she was brought up and she just wasn't very maternal, but you can see why he might've had bad feelings about her.


Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 16, 2009, 06:35:53 PM

For the Duke to refer to his own mother as an "ice-veined bitch" shows what a ghastly man he was.

It does show that Edward was ill mannered, but for a man to be moved to such language also shows that Mary was a witch of a mother. As has been stated before, Mary would never have been nominated for "mother of the year". She could have met Edward and Wallis half way, but her willful and stubborn insistence on 'her way or the highway' created an unnecessary rift that was regrettable.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on January 16, 2009, 09:35:41 PM
It does show that Edward was ill mannered, but for a man to be moved to such language also shows that Mary was a witch of a mother. As has been stated before, Mary would never have been nominated for "mother of the year". She could have met Edward and Wallis half way, but her willful and stubborn insistence on 'her way or the highway' created an unnecessary rift that was regrettable.

No, she wouldn't have been nominated for "mother of the year" but she was no witch either.  How could she have met Edward and Wallis "half way"?  The whole abdication saga occurred because there WAS no half way in the situation.  Queen Mary knew from the outset that Wallis Simpson was a totally unsuitable match for her son in his position - it was nothing to do with "her way or the highway".  I'm sure you would be aware that she did meet up with her son some years after his marriage but the royal family as a whole did not accept Wallis and Mary's duty was always there first and foremost.  That did NOT mean she didn't care about her children.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 18, 2009, 01:03:15 PM
Thank you Grace. I wish people would get there facts straight. Queen Mary was never unmaternal. Lady Airlie wrote that QM and GV were not stern and unloving & she remembered them as more conscientious and devoted to their children then the majority of parents in that era, but felt neither had any understanding of a childs mind.

Queen Marys behviour during the abdication crisis and after was exemplary. The Duke was just an incredibly selfish man that wanted his way no matter what. I feel sorry for Bertie who had to put up with him for all those years. It's well known he lied to Bertie to get what he wanted. In fact Sarah Bradford wrote that the Duke never gave any impression that he felt any grief at Bertie's death and only seems to have gone to his funeral for no other reason but to be seen publicly & to obtain a continuance of his allowance under the new regime.

My least favourite royal by far!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ashdean on January 18, 2009, 03:37:43 PM
Thank you Grace. I wish people would get there facts straight. Queen Mary was never unmaternal. Lady Airlie wrote that QM and GV were not stern and unloving & she remembered them as more conscientious and devoted to their children then the majority of parents in that era, but felt neither had any understanding of a childs mind.

Queen Marys behviour during the abdication crisis and after was exemplary. The Duke was just an incredibly selfish man that wanted his way no matter what. I feel sorry for Bertie who had to put up with him for all those years. It's well known he lied to Bertie to get what he wanted. In fact Sarah Bradford wrote that the Duke never gave any impression that he felt any grief at Bertie's death and only seems to have gone to his funeral for no other reason but to be seen publicly & to obtain a continuance of his allowance under the new regime.

My least favourite royal by far!
AS always Eddie you say Exactly what I myself think..but put it far more Eloquently...Q Mary was not the bad mother her son made out...Edward was a very selfish,spoiled deceitful man
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 18, 2009, 04:25:29 PM
Queen Mary was not a bad mother, but she was not a warm and loving mother too. Even Vicky commented on her coldness to her babies. Also she suffered in comparison with her mother-in-law who was a lovey dovey kind of mother.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 18, 2009, 04:52:20 PM
I don't think it is a question of 'getting facts straight'; rather how one interprets a lot of varying data that relies on subjective analysis. There are many QM fans, I am not one of them, per se. Edward was not a perfect fellow, but he was POW and that position has an inherited power that gives the title holder a broader reach to affect his future.

going back to the comment that he was said to have made, again, a loving mother in a good relationship with her eldest son would not have caused such a comment to be made.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 18, 2009, 04:59:37 PM
Indeed.It seems that most of her sons have to find strong women as spouces maybe an indication of her inability to relate to her children.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 19, 2009, 11:13:14 AM
Thank you Grace. I wish people would get there facts straight. Queen Mary was never unmaternal. Lady Airlie wrote that QM and GV were not stern and unloving & she remembered them as more conscientious and devoted to their children then the majority of parents in that era, but felt neither had any understanding of a childs mind.

Queen Marys behviour during the abdication crisis and after was exemplary. The Duke was just an incredibly selfish man that wanted his way no matter what. I feel sorry for Bertie who had to put up with him for all those years. It's well known he lied to Bertie to get what he wanted. In fact Sarah Bradford wrote that the Duke never gave any impression that he felt any grief at Bertie's death and only seems to have gone to his funeral for no other reason but to be seen publicly & to obtain a continuance of his allowance under the new regime.

My least favourite royal by far!
AS always Eddie you say Exactly what I myself think..but put it far more Eloquently...Q Mary was not the bad mother her son made out...Edward was a very selfish,spoiled deceitful man

So sweet, thank you ashdean!! I wish my writing was eloquent!!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: mcdnab on January 19, 2009, 11:21:07 AM

George VI and Edward VIII only ever really trusted their wives and as Eric says did indeed choose women who were quite maternal and were strong individuals in their own right, perhaps looking for the strong female support they perhaps felt was lacking in their own mother. In George VI case it was exemplified very much in the happy, contented family unit that resembled his wife's childhood rather than his own.
As has been said Lady Airlie (who was very close to the royal family) didn't think of them as particularly cruel or neglectful just lacking in any real understanding of children. York Cottage was dominated by George V his prejudices and his opinons and an obsession with behaving in the "right" or "correct" way and it certainly had an appalling effect on the behaviour and characters of all his children. The Queen with her strong sense of duty and devotion to the British crown appears to have always given way to her husband whether she considered him right or wrong. The idea that she was cold and unmaternal is that she clearly had a disaste for the whole business of pregnancy and childbirth unlike say the Empress Frederick and Queen Alexandra.
The thing about this that is perhaps most odd is that both George V and Queen Mary were themselves the products of homes dominated by very loving and affectionate mothers so its rather bizarre that they turned out to be poor parents to their own.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 19, 2009, 11:21:31 AM
Queen Mary was not a bad mother, but she was not a warm and loving mother too. Even Vicky commented on her coldness to her babies. Also she suffered in comparison with her mother-in-law who was a lovey dovey kind of mother.

For once we agree! However I believe Vicky mistook coldness for shyness. Lady Airlie knew Queen Mary better than most and I feel her thoughts carry a lot of weight. Queen Mary seems to have enjoyed a good relationship with Bertie and George particularly, and appears to have been close as they grew older. Queen Mary's diary entrys following the lose of 3 sons is also very revealing.

Sorry I don't mean to turn this into a Queen Mary thread, I just have tremendous respect for her, her life and what she did for the monarchy!

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: royal_netherlands on January 19, 2009, 11:46:13 AM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/QueenMaryandhersonGeorgeVI.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 19, 2009, 12:50:30 PM
Well...I had tremendous respect for Queen Mary for her duty and dedication to her country, people and also a good wife. However that did not make her a loviong mother, she seems to be cold and only able to express her love through art and lovely objects. That is why Georgie Kent was the closest to her. In the documentary, Author Sophie Weston says "He was close to Queen Mary because he was the easiest for her to love. He shared her love for antigues, art and music."David did had a strong case against Queen Mary as she was too duty driven to be a"real mother" to her children. However in her later years, Queen Mary softened and even added a message and a string of pearls to Wallis. I think that was the best she could do.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LillyO on January 23, 2009, 06:06:54 PM
It is true that a mother can feel and act very differently towards each of her children. For any person to make a comment such as icy veined bitch - regarding his mother, the person was more than likely than not subjected to some behaviours by the mother to lead him to his conclusions. I believe Mary was a cold mother to Edward VIII.

OK - What I really want to know is this - What do you think of the way the royal family treated Wallis - mainly in how they seemed to go out of their way to hurt her?  The beloved Queen Mum/Elizabeth especially was just relentless in her cruelty towards Wallis. I think any flowers she may have sent Wallis later in life, were to ease her own guilty conscience in remembering her petty and vindictive and unnecessary cruelness toward Wallis. Age does have a way of doing that to people.

Also, I read that the royal family treated Wallis like crap when she went back to England to bury the Duke of Windsor. Wallis apparently remarked at the gravesite that there was barely enough room for her (she was also to be buried there). I also read that when Wallis was buried, the service was very hurried and her name was never mentioned.

Wallis was said to have taken a liking to Prince Charles - so after the Duke of Windsor died, the family sent Charles to visit Wallis at her home in Paris. It is my understanding that his "mission" was to recover anything he could that might belong to the royal family- sort of like picking the bones of the dead. Is this true?
Charles was supposed to have once said that the Duchess of Windsor was "a horrible woman"  - and when asked how did he know? -  he commented that "because my Grandmother told me!"  Didn't Charles Grandmother also say that Camilla was a horrible woman?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 24, 2009, 07:45:14 AM
I believe Mary was a cold mother to Edward VIII.


Lilly, I think we will believe Lady Airlie over you dear.

As for your other opinions, I think they our joke; i.e. Charles being sent on a mission to see what he could scavenge (!!) the QM attempting to ease a conscience (When it's a fact that by Edward abdicating it sent GVI to an early grave), Wallis receiving crap treatment (Despite staying at BP)

And as far Wallis's name never being mentioned at her own funeral, that's hilarious. :)

Please read a good book on the subject.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LillyO on January 24, 2009, 08:52:40 AM
Oh My!  I did not expect that! What a slap across the face!!

If you bothered to REAd what I posted, you would have realized that I was asking a question, NOT asking anyone to believe anything. I asked for information, not a brow beating!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: imperial angel on January 24, 2009, 01:35:59 PM
We really enjoy new posters here, and I enjoyed reading your posts, LillyO. Please continue posting.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on January 24, 2009, 02:04:36 PM
I believe Mary was a cold mother to Edward VIII.


Lilly, I think we will believe Lady Airlie over you dear.

As for your other opinions, I think they our joke; i.e. Charles being sent on a mission to see what he could scavenge (!!) the QM attempting to ease a conscience (When it's a fact that by Edward abdicating it sent GVI to an early grave), Wallis receiving crap treatment (Despite staying at BP)

And as far Wallis's name never being mentioned at her own funeral, that's hilarious. :)

Please read a good book on the subject.


Actually, it wasn't Charles that was sent to scavenge stuff, it was Louis Mountbatten, but the sentiment was certainly the same. Also, George VI was killed because he smoked like a chimney. He smoked long before he became king and I doubt he would've quit had his brother stayed on. Whether the stress of being king helped it a matter of opinion, but if he hadn't been king there still would've been a war and most likely bombings going on and he might've still been under stress.

The Queen Mother certainly didn't get along with Wallis. It certainly wasn't all dislike on her part; the feeling was mutual. I think the Queen Mother acted nicer to Wallis in the end not because of a guilty conscious but because after her husband died she had more sympathy for Wallis because she was also a widow and I think when she saw how much a mess Wallis was at the funeral (she had to be sedated) she might've realized that perhaps Wallis was a more complex woman who had loved Edward rather than just being the harsh social climbing gold digger type the royal family had always seen her as.

And I know I've read in at least one book that Wallis's name wasn't mentioned at her funeral. Let me look that up.

Oh yes, from Elizabeth by Sarah Bradford, p. 417, first American edition, midway through the second paragraph:

Quote
even more curiously her (Wallis) name was not mentioned even once during the ceremony.


I don't know how good of a source you see Sarah Bradford as, but I've always considered her a decent historian and I know this isn't the only book I've seen that in.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 24, 2009, 02:17:57 PM

 Also, George VI was killed because he smoked like a chimney. He smoked long before he became king and I doubt he would've quit had his brother stayed on. Whether the stress of being king helped it a matter of opinion, but if he hadn't been king there still would've been a war and most likely bombings going on and he might've still been under stress.




Jeniann, I think we will believe Alec Hardinge over you dear;

"As a result of the stress he was under the King used to stay up too late and smoked too many cigarettes-he literally died for England"

Of course he smoked like a chimney - due to the stress he was under.

I fail to see how a funeral cermony can not even mention the name of the deceased!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LillyO on January 24, 2009, 02:38:44 PM
OK -  Thank those of you who sent personal messages and those who posted support for me. I was really shocked to see that anyone would respond so rudely.
In any event, "The Duchess of Windsor The Uncommon Life of Wallis Simpson" by Greg King  this is where I read about Wallis' funeral, page 494 tells of this "hilarious"
ascertation of her name not being spoken. Since this is the only bio I have read about her (and that was several years ago - hence WHY I was ASKING for info) - I knew I had read that someone -THANK YOU JENIANN - had been sent for the purpose you mentioned. Also -  I stated NO OPINIONS before other than that I think Mary was a cold Mother - understand that opinions are subjective and if I think that - you have no right BOY - to call it a joke - anymore than I have the right to call you an idiot if you like the color blue! Icky - Icky I did not come here to be insulted by you!  The issue of it being "FACT" that George VI went to his early grave on account of the abdication - what do you base this "FACT" on?????  How would anyone know that for sure???
Now, I do not know if the author Greg King is credible as it is the only book I have read on Wallis. Please advise me if anyone knows.

Thanks again for your support - I most certainly will continue to post here!!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 24, 2009, 02:42:52 PM
<yawn> oh relax, I only responded to your questions. If you can't handle a debate, then don't enter into one. I'm sorry for being well read.....
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LillyO on January 24, 2009, 02:53:27 PM
No, you did not respond to questions, you behaved insultingly.  Just man up and apologize for your bad bahavior.
And Oh "Yawn" too bad the rest of us are not as well read as you say you are.  (How would you know?)  YAWN

Please stop telling me what to do - I will enter any debate of my choosing! Debating does not include insulting and talking down to people. I do not need your permission.

You "fail" to see how a person's name can be omitted from a funeral service - because you fail to see it does that mean it can't be so?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on January 24, 2009, 03:03:51 PM
OK -  Thank those of you who sent personal messages and those who posted support for me. I was really shocked to see that anyone would respond so rudely.
I'm also kinda new here and I really don't think that sort of attitude is appropriate.

Now, I do not know if the author Greg King is credible as it is the only book I have read on Wallis. Please advise me if anyone knows.


Greg King is a very reliable source. He actually used to post here and I have a book he cowrote on the IF. I read his book on Wallis from the library but the only book I had on me with the source about Wallis's name not being mentioned at her funeral was Sarah Bradford, who I would also consider a reliable source.





Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 24, 2009, 03:19:33 PM
Don't monopolise the thread please. You asked what people thought about certain matters relating to the DoW. I told you what I thought and also backed it up with facts. Some of the matters where hilarious and I told you so. Don't be so defensive.  ::)

A simple search on the Duchesses funeral would have told you the following "There was no funeral address, in accordance with the Duchess's wishes, and at no point in the service was there any mention of her name, or reference to her life." [BBC]

Please lets get back to the Duke & Duchess.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 24, 2009, 03:23:27 PM
By the way Greg King is not a reliable source, read FOTR.

The Duke and Duchesses final resting place:

(http://www.divasthesite.com/images/Diva_Graves/Wallis_Simpson_grave.jpg)
Plenty of room if you ask me...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 24, 2009, 03:32:34 PM
(http://dljh1964.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/wallis-in-palace.jpg)

Wallis at Buckingham Palace during her stay at the time of Edwards funeral.
Not crap treatment if you ask me.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on January 24, 2009, 03:45:12 PM
A simple search on the Duchesses funeral would have told you the following "There was no funeral address, in accordance with the Duchess's wishes, and at no point in the service was there any mention of her name, or reference to her life." [BBC]


Then why did you say

Quote
And as far Wallis's name never being mentioned at her own funeral, that's hilarious.
and
Quote
I fail to see how a funeral cermony can not even mention the name of the deceased!
(even after I gave you a very specific source from a published book by a respected historian)
if a "simple search" would've told you that Lilly and I were right about this?


Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 24, 2009, 03:49:33 PM
Because there was a question regarding it and as usual you expect other people to do the research for you.  ::)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LillyO on January 24, 2009, 03:52:12 PM
 Greg King's Duchess of Windsor - pages 474-75:

"The Duke's burial at Frogmore, sheltered among the trees below the castle, took place immediately after the luncheon. David was interred near the corner of the burial ground, next to a long, low hedge which separated the royal burial ground from the gravel paths leading to Queen Victoria's mausoleum and, further along, Frogmore House where he had spent his childhood summers. The spot was tranquil but seemed much too small to accomodate both Wallis and David. Seeing the size of the plot, Wallis turned to the Archbishop of Canterbury and said "I realize that I'm a very thin, small woman, but I do not think that even I could fit into that miserable little narrow peice of ground."
.........................in the end, Wallis' concerns proved correct, and the hadge indeed had to be moved before her own grave could be dug. "


Regarding Wallis' funeral -
So, regerdless of the circumstances, Wallis' name was not mentioned at her funeral ceremony.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LillyO on January 24, 2009, 03:59:11 PM
Jenian - it's proven in writing with backup sources as to what we have said. This guy is all talk - he has not provided one fact for what he has said  -re-read the posts.
Really inappropriate!


Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 24, 2009, 04:05:45 PM
Lilly dear, you are the one who believes that Prince Charles has nothing better to do than go snooping around the Duchess's home to see what treasures he can find- hilarious! You are the one that wrote Wallis received crap treatment during the Duke's funeral despite being invited to stay at BP!! And you are the one that implied the Duchesses name was not mentioned at her own funeral due to some spite rather than getting your facts straight and finding out what her wishes where.



Please lets get back to the topic and  stop ruining it for everyone else.

Thank you :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LillyO on January 24, 2009, 04:12:38 PM
RE-READ THE POSTS and stop blaming others for your bad behavior.............That is the last I'm going to say to you!  RE-READ THE POSTS
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 24, 2009, 04:15:44 PM
RE-READ THE POSTS and stop blaming others for your bad behavior.............That is the last I'm going to say to you!  RE-READ THE POSTS

Lilly, do you have to ruin the thread for everyone else? Don't ask for opinions on preposterous subjects if you can't handle the response!!! :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LillyO on January 24, 2009, 04:54:50 PM
Jeniann- What authors, whom you trust, would you advise reading on the Duchess of Windsor? I have heard that Charles Highham is an unreliable source. What do you know of this?  Thanks for all your help!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 24, 2009, 05:00:08 PM
LillyO, Greg King is a well respected author, and his research is  quite thourough.  It is a pity that some who have not even read his books  criticise his works. Altough he is probably more well known for his works on the Romanovs, he is  versatile in his topics he writes. I do not always agree with him, I respect his efforts very much.
  As for the Duchess- well, I have little or no sympathy for her,  and he failed to convince me otherwise, BUT, his work was engaging.
 And funerals, well, it is not uncommon to  omit the name of the deceased, is it?  Quite often   he/she is simply referred to as "our brother/sister". She even mentioned that she did not wish to be "memorialised".
 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Vecchiolarry on January 24, 2009, 05:29:14 PM
Hi LillyO,

Yes, I will second Robert's opinion of Greg King.  He is a very good and reliable author.
I have several of his books, not all, and have found him quite authentic!!

BTW, welcome here...
Some of us now a little & some of us know a lot but not all of us knows everything - so, ask any question you want and hopefully, you'll get a respectful and correct answer.

Larry
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Forum Admin on January 24, 2009, 05:57:34 PM
<yawn> oh relax, I only responded to your questions. If you can't handle a debate, then don't enter into one. I'm sorry for being well read.....

Eddiboy,

I've reviewed the thread at the request of several users (who actually haven't even posted here).  While you haven't violated Forum rules, per se, you have treated a newbie rather harshly and unfairly. Anyone coming here with genuine interest and questions should be valued, not dismissed as you did.

I suggest you re read the most recent posts and take an "outsiders" look at how you responded.  I think you may indeed owe LillyO an apology, and I suggest that instead of insulting her, try to TEACH her, and act with kindness instead of sarcasm and insult.

Thanks

FA
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 24, 2009, 06:50:52 PM
I love the book Greg King did on the Duchess, it was reasonable and fair (unlike others who claim she was a German spy, a woman who learn sexual tricks in China or even worst a man !). However some of the stuff on the Romanovs sounds balmy...including a claim Serge might have sexual molested his nephew Dimitri...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 24, 2009, 07:13:43 PM
LilyO- I have 14 books om my shelf regarding the D & D of Windsor. They run the gamut of apolgia to condenation.  But I might  recommend  The Windsor Story byu  by Bryan and Murphy, The Woman He loved by Martin and King Edward VIII by Ziegler.
 There are also MANY  mentions of them in books by Theo Aronson and others.
 Some, as  Eric mentioned, are less than enthusiastic, to be sure.  Dancing With the Devil, by  Wilson is okay, I suppose, if sensationalistic,  and  Royal Feud by Thornton is  not  what I would call  'unbiased" but reasonbly fair.
 To get an objective  pictiure of the famous couple, try to read all views.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 24, 2009, 07:21:18 PM
I read all the books you mentioned but found the Greg King one most sympathetic. The early ones were more condemning of Edward. My view is more of sympatheric to the couple than the traditional blame on them. Recent discoveries found Stanley Baldwin less than fair in his dealings with the Duke. I read the book by Ziegler (who joking refer to himself during a meeting with me as the one who wrote these huge volume of books that people reads) but found it really toeing the tradional line.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LillyO on January 24, 2009, 07:50:39 PM
Thank you for being such an honorable group of people, I am grateful to be among you! Thank you.

Back to topic: Last night I read through 30+ pages of this topic vaguely remembering a few things I read in a book on Wallis several years ago. My post was to ask if anyone knew about these vague things.  I did not come across any discussion about the Queen Mother's treatment of Wallis through the years. The other things were cleared up as I had to find the source in the midst of this discussion. It turned out it was the Greg King book I had read several years ago. Realizing , of course, that since I had only read one book, that I really had no frame of reference,  I decided to ask you all here what you could tell me. I love the book references that you all contributed and reading all views is absolutely right - that is the best advice!! What do you think of the Charles Highham book? Anything about Queen Mum's behavior - did she go out of her way to be nasty and petty and to hurt Wallis whenever she could?? These are but questions - because I don't know - I am trying to learn from you all. Also please do not feel like I want/expect anyone to research anything on my behalf, just conversation of things you know from your studies on the subject. Thank you for all your kindness.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 24, 2009, 08:07:59 PM
Royal Feud by  Thorntom might give you some insight into that issue, LilyO.  I will not vouch for it's objectiveness, however. Like all authors,  he has a slant.
 Another reasonbly decent volume is The Last of the Duchess, by  Blackwood.  That is the one that actually  gave me some sympathy for her.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on January 25, 2009, 08:25:34 AM
I would say the best books on the Duchess are The Woman He loved by Ralph G. Martin, the one you read by Greg King, The Windsor Story by Bryan and Murphy (which gives a more negative perspective to balence the positive ones). Royal Feud gives a great idea what her "problem" was with the Queen Mother. The Last of the Duchess isn't as much of a scholarly one, and I wouldn't cite it but it's an incredibly fun read and gives you an idea who Wallis's friends were, who liked her, who didn't, and a lot of anecdotes about her, both positive and negitive. Also, the whole issue with the crazy lawyer is really bizarre. It's not a biography and it doesn't give an account of her life as much as it gives an account of how people felt about her and what sort of woman she was as well as what happened to her at the end of her life (though there have been questions if Caroline Blackwood exaggerated a bit on some points and she does speculate a lot). I read it in two days and have since reread it as it's a really interesting and addictive book and written like a novel.

I'm not going to discount the Higham one completely. Most of it is gossip and just total crap, but I do like that he does print the gossip (though some times he states it as fact) because it really gives a sense of why so many people disliked her, especially in the royal family. Unfortunately that was the first book I ever read on the Duchess (it was the only one my local bookstore had) and it took a while for me to realize it was inaccurate, so I certainly wouldn't reccomend it unless you've read other books first and realize when you open it that it's not accurate. The Windsor Story is better for a less gossipy negative perspective.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 25, 2009, 12:46:18 PM
I heard the worst of the lot was the one by Frances Donaldson.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 25, 2009, 12:51:33 PM
You may very well be correct, Eric.  I lent the book out before I read it, so really can't comment on it. But the book's reputation is pretty lousey.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 25, 2009, 12:55:52 PM
Indeed...The book was made into a BBC TV series. Lady Diana Cooper saw it declared the lady (Cynthia Harris) was all wrong for Wallis. Frances Donaldson was consultant for that series...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 25, 2009, 01:01:51 PM
Yes, I remember the BBC series.  But was not all that interested in the Windsors at that point.  Not quite sure what did get me interested in them. Perhaps Theo Aronson- he was thinking of writing a book about them, but that was years ago. Anyway, I became interested and still have an unfavourable opinion of them  [Although I will give Wallis the benefit of the doubt, so to say]
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 25, 2009, 01:07:39 PM
Thanks Robert. The truth is now being told that Wallis was really scared out of her wits by the abdication and wished to pull herself out of the picture. It was David who followed her and made the decision to marry. Wallis had her shared her faults but not as awful as Elena Lupasu (wife of Carol II), whom she was sometimes compared to.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 25, 2009, 01:35:19 PM
Oh, I would never put Wallis in the same category as that Lupecu woman.  Both may have been greedy tramps but Wallis had more class, being from  Balitmore...
 And, I agree, Wallis never wanted to be queen. She would have happily remained "royal mistress". At least, that is my understanding.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Janet Ashton on January 25, 2009, 03:56:17 PM
I love the book Greg King did on the Duchess, it was reasonable and fair (unlike others who claim she was a German spy, a woman who learn sexual tricks in China or even worst a man !). However some of the stuff on the Romanovs sounds balmy...including a claim Serge might have sexual molested his nephew Dimitri...

I have a friend who has studied Dmitri in depth for years - in fact, you may have seen him speak. He has heard this tale about Serge too, and not from Greg, who he doesn't know. It came from another Romanov historian; no idea where she heard it first; but I should add that Witte mentions rumours that Serge abused or took advantage of young cadets. My friend had a qualified child analyst consider the claim that Dmitri was abused, and received the opinion that his personality showed definite signs of trauma consistent with something of the kind (depression, moodiness and so on). The clincher - precocious sexual interest in other children - was absent, but I would not be to quick to rule this theory out and label it as crazy. I happen to know this author very well indeed and he is certainly not crazy.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Janet Ashton on January 25, 2009, 03:59:35 PM
LillyO, Greg King is a well respected author, and his research is  quite thourough.  It is a pity that some who have not even read his books  criticise his works. Altough he is probably more well known for his works on the Romanovs, he is  versatile in his topics he writes. 

The Duchess of Windsor book was his best selling and is also his own favorite, and I think it would be a great shame if he gets labelled as a "Romanov historian" and has publishers make offers to him only about them......after a while they'd drive anyone insane.  :D
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LillyO on January 25, 2009, 05:01:53 PM
After getting your reviews on King's book, I am sure I picked the right book as a starting point in my reading on The Duchess of Windsor!  I also realized upon seeing the name Frances Donaldson that she was another author I was told not to depend on to be reliable. Thanks - Great help!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 25, 2009, 07:15:02 PM
The Frances Donaldson made no attempt to be fair to the Windsors, it was mostly a hacket job on them. Many people accused Wallis was self-seeking, but one must remember she had not much of a family. Only her mother and Aunt Bessie and that wasn't much. She had to fend for herself most of the time.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on January 26, 2009, 04:20:39 AM
I always thought Aunt Bessie in particular was a real support to Wallis?  Wallis talked about her a great deal in her book and they seemed quite close.  At least that was the impression I got.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LillyO on January 26, 2009, 05:15:22 AM
I also had the same impression Grace.  How about Wallis' book the Heart has it's Reasons (? I think that's the right title) - has anyone read this? If so, what did you think?

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on January 26, 2009, 05:20:18 AM
It's been a long, long time since I read this book - I think it's in a trunk in my garage - shall have to have another look, I think!  This was where I got my ideas about Aunt Bessie, if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on January 26, 2009, 08:48:03 AM
I also had the same impression Grace.  How about Wallis' book the Heart has it's Reasons (? I think that's the right title) - has anyone read this? If so, what did you think?



I have it. I wouldn't really recommend it. I mean, if you can get your hands on it easily and inexpensively (like from a library or paperbackswap which is where I got my copy) it's a good one to have, but it's hard to find in most places these days and I wouldn't put a lot of time and money into getting a copy. There are only a few cute anecdotes that you can't easily find in other sources but there's a lot glossed over or left out, as people tend to do in memoirs. It seems she was so afraid of making herself look bad that she's freakishly vague about her relationship with Edward and though she mentions she first had feelings for him in 1934 she says nothing at all about when they actually got involved as more than just friends. It pretty much goes from "he would come over for fried chicken sometimes and I went on a trip on his boat" to "and then he met with the Prime Minister to decide how we would go about getting married" without giving much of an idea how they got from point A to point B. I know she had to be pretty PG and censored about the whole thing, but I'm not even talking about like sexual stuff. Just things most women would mention to give an idea how exactly they ended up in a relationship like when the first time they kissed was and when they first admitted to having feelings for each other.

Also, I have the Frances Donaldson book coming from paperbackswap and now I regret ordering it. Is it really that bad? I know it's a bit harsh but I liked the miniseries well enough, though I thought for a couple who were supposedly in love Edward and Wallis really seemed to just live in a state of UST in the whole thing and Wallis needed to grow a backbone. But it was better than the BBC one with Joely Richardson.

I also have the book on Wallis by Stephen Birmingham coming as well. Does anyone know how good that one is? One of my friends said it was pretty balanced. If no one's read it I'll be sure to post what I think of it here when I get it.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 26, 2009, 11:05:39 AM
Actually there is no right or wrong answers. Most of the early books written earlier were either idealised or condemned the couple depending from which angle you took. I think the couple is still waiting for a balanced view of their lives, failures and weaknessesof course but also sympathy from where they came from.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 26, 2009, 11:14:46 AM
Wallis' book was ghost written [as was the Duke's] so I would not put much trust into them. They are basically apologias, of a sort.
  I think Birmingham is pretty good, but it has been a while since I read that one.
  I also think both Eric & Grace are correct. That is, Wallis did not have much of a family  but Aunt Bessie was her most reliable friend. As I recall, she even brought her aunt to Europe for support.
 IMO, King's book is still the best. Even though he is a tad slanted in favour of the Duchess.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: mcdnab on January 26, 2009, 12:46:13 PM
Even after all these years I think it is still difficult to find a fair account of the abdication and the subsequent relationship between the Windsors and the rest of the Royal Family. Of all the characters involved we've only ever had the actual accounts of the Windsors in their memoirs which to be fair aren't the most reliable historical records but nor should they be entirely ignored.
As far as the family were concerned i think it would be fair to say that they preferred to overlook "dear David's" failings and preferred instead to blame Wallis for his behaviour and the abdication.
The rift between the two sides - based on their surviving letters and the recollections of most courtiers involved with both sides - sugests that the fault lay on both sides. Edward's obsession with money and his determination to maintain his lifestyle to avoid suggestions that he'd lost "caste" by abdicating and then marrying Wallis (hence his incessant demands over form, his obsession with the HRH issue and his general fear of taxation, his desire for maintaining some kind of public profile hence his ill advised trip to Germany and speech from Verdun ahead of George VI's departure for Canada and America) on the other side George VI's determination that Wallis should not be HRH, his fear of being overshadowed by his brother, his desire for them not to return, his anger over his brother's behaviour in exile and his fury over what he considered his brother's lies over their financial agreements (which dated back to George V's will and the fact that Edward VIII didn't disclose his private savings when his brother promised him an allowance after the abdication).
To answer the question about the influence of Queen Elizabeth - she certainly had considerable influence on her husband (despite the image she preferred to present to the world) and there is enough evidence to suggest that she disliked Wallis (like Queen Mary and most of the Royal Family they were convinced his behaviour was all "that womans" fault) - I don't believe as has been often posited that she "hated" her. I don't doubt that the Queen as Duchess of York was possibly aware of how Wallis and David referred to her, but I suspect that if she had known she wouldn't have been as angry as her husband (who adored his wife) and Elizabeth was also known to have a certain fondness for the odd bitchy comment herself. Granted in the early years of their reign Elizabeth was determined to keep them as far away as possible (she was perhaps more aware than most of how the Duke's brothers had always admired him, feared the effect of how her husband would be compared to the Duke if they returned and she is on record as being rather uncharitable towards the Duchess), but to blame the Queen for the entire attitude of the court and government isn't accurate. It was their new Prime Minister Chamberlain who was most disgusted with the Duke of Windsor over the financial settlement and his subsequent behaviour, and even the Windsors' old ally Churchill quickly fell out with the Duke after he assumed the premiership over his demands and behaviour during and just after the fall of France and his subsequent behaviour in the Caribbean. Most people who knew the late Queen Elizabeth suggest that whilst she certainly didn't like or approve of Wallis she didn't hate her (most of those quoted on this did know the Queen well and weren't at all unwilling to criticise her behaviour).
I think someone mentioned the family scrabbling around to try and get back "royal" items that David had given Wallis - the only person who seems to have carried on "dropping" in was Louis Mountbatten and its highly unlikely that it was at either the Queen or the Queen Mother's suggestion - in fact one of the few things that the Queen Mother and Wallis agreed on was a shared distrust of "Dickie" Mountbatten.

Over time these kind of things become myths don't they - there's an element of truth in all the oft repeated arguements about the abdication and its aftermath - but it's not necessarily the truth.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 26, 2009, 01:06:29 PM
I agree. Even Queen Mary soften her stance against Wallis when she inquire about "your wife" in a letter and a strand of pearls (which Wallis wore at the Duke's furneral). In "Royal Feud" the tone was more vendatta and more personal in the case of Elizabeth, The Queen Mother towards Wallis. However by the end of the book, she reconciled with Wallis (although by that time Wallis had begun her decline into darkness...).
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LillyO on January 28, 2009, 04:14:55 PM
BBC On This Day         Here You can find actual footage (broadcast by the BBC) of the funeral's of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.  (each is just a few minutes long)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 29, 2009, 09:46:26 AM
Yes...Princess Diana and the Queen Mother attended the furneral of the Duchess of Windsor.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on January 31, 2009, 08:03:58 PM
I got the Stephen Birmingham book on Wallis in the mail a few days ago. Not the best book I've read on her and it seems to rely on interviews with people who knew the Windsors quite a bit, and a lot of the people they talked to obviously didn't like Wallis very much, thus there's a lot of gossip printed as fact, like the idea that the Windsors never had sex though at the end they quote Diana Cooper who says she's "perfectly sure" that they did. That's not the only inconsistancy, so I wouldn't reccomend it if you've never read a better book. Tons of interesting anecdotes and quotes, though. Sone of which you won't see in most other books. Not a lot of pictures, but some I'd never seen before.

The best part is the last chapter which goes into the author's dealings with Suzanne Blum. Considering this book was written after Caroline Blackwood's but published before it (and thus neither author could've copied the other's claims), this certainly helps make the case (for me at least) that she was nuts and had an unhealthy obsession with her client. He also quotes Maitre Blum as saying Wallis was just like Queen Mary and that David forced her to marry him and claiming that she had some kind of letters or journal that would completely back up her increasingly implausible claims but refusing to produce any of it.

Wallis does not come off in a very good light. Then again, if you look at all the people who he went into because of their relationships with her, no one comes off looking very good.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lucien on February 16, 2009, 12:22:02 PM
Madonna is to play Wallis in new film...... ::)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 16, 2009, 12:37:08 PM
From the Daily Mail:

Madonna has written to the Queen for permission to make a film about the former Prince of Wales and his affair with Wallis Simpson.

The popstar is rumoured to have her heart set on starring as Wallis, whose affair with King Edward VIII - the Queen's uncle -  sparked a royal crisis after he abdicated his throne to marry her. Madonna reportedly 'sees similarities' between herself and the twice-divorced beauty as they were both from the U.S. and married Englishmen.

The 50-year-old singer is said to have researched the role heavily and covered a wall of her London home with articles on the socialite. A friend told The Sun: 'Madonna sees Wallis Simpson as her next big project. She is as passionate about it as she was about playing Eva Peron in Evita. 'Madonna said she is fascinated about this American commoner who refused to conform or offer explanations for her tangled love life.'

Madonna has written to the Queen for permission to make a film about the former Prince of Wales and his affair with Wallis Simpson. The popstar is rumoured to have her heart set on starring as Wallis, whose affair with King Edward VIII - the Queen's uncle -  sparked a royal crisis after he abdicated his throne to marry her. Madonna reportedly 'sees similarities' between herself and the twice-divorced beauty as they were both from the U.S. and married Englishmen.

The 50-year-old singer is said to have researched the role heavily and covered a wall of her London home with articles on the socialite. A friend told The Sun: 'Madonna sees Wallis Simpson as her next big project. She is as passionate about it as she was about playing Eva Peron in Evita. 'Madonna said she is fascinated about this American commoner who refused to conform or offer explanations for her tangled love life.'

Madonna reportedly put plans to make the film on hold during her tumultuous divorce, but is still very much interested in picking up where she left off. 'It was all systems go until the divorce, when everything was put on the back burner. ' When things in her life settle down this year, she's keen to get things going again.'

Madonna was quoted back in Apr 2008 in Elle magazine saying that she's read every book on the Duke & Duchess.  :-X
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 16, 2009, 01:16:47 PM
Madonna! Well, at least Evita was a musical. But Wallis ? There must be a new definition of "beauty" because Wallis was not beautiful and she freely admitted it. She did the best with what she had. Money. And Wallis was indeed a "socialite" whereas Madonna is pretty much a recluse when not performing. That is, she rarely socialises.
 It certainly would be a curious creation.  I do not think any of Madonna's films did very well, despite her legions of fans.
 I am no fan of either woman but I do not despise them either.
{actually, I rather liked Evita, but I know I am in a minority on that}
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: alixaannencova on February 16, 2009, 01:45:56 PM
I thought Madge had 'promised' not to appear in another acting role again after 'Swept away.' Personally I did not think she was at all bad in 'Evita' but then again that was more like a very long and very lush music video. I suppose Madge wouldn't have to worry about getting the accent right in a Wallis film, which would mean she could focus more on her acting!!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 16, 2009, 01:58:47 PM
I actually like "Evita" a lot. Madonna as Wallis...She may need more time study her accent and research in Baltimore than London for the early years. Yes I think there was a parallel here. Wallis Simpson's first husband Win Spencer and Madonna's first husband Sean Penn were both abusive personalities...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 16, 2009, 02:06:36 PM
You are right about Evita  Alixa... But, Wallis had a very distinct Southern accent with a "posh" twist to it that came off to me as being rather affected. Can Madonna do it? A couple of actresses have, Cynthia Harris and Joely Richardson for instance, but I think they are British.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 16, 2009, 02:11:26 PM
Yep. Madonna shared Wallis belief in money and security in a large measure.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: alixaannencova on February 16, 2009, 02:13:16 PM
Hadn't thought about the southern aspect of Wallis' clipped transatlantic accent! I have heard Madonna impersonate cockney as well as Estuary, and she isn't that bad at them. I have heard some Americans even complain that Madonna has gone 'affected' since she married Guy Ritchie, and that her accent is no longer quite natural anymore.

Perhaps she really has been practicing for longer than she is letting on!  
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 16, 2009, 02:15:11 PM
Yes...Madonna had went Brit long time ago...in accent. A hard Southern accent may require some work.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 16, 2009, 02:25:43 PM
In addition to being a poor actress who has shown an inability to put on any accent other than a patently fake British one, she's 10 years older than the Duchess when she married and, while thin, is too muscled and botoxed to convey an impersonation of her.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 16, 2009, 02:29:11 PM
I think she has to thin up to get the part right. Remember Angela Basset as Tina Turner ? She was so muscular that she look like she could beat up Ike any time...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: alixaannencova on February 16, 2009, 02:59:52 PM
Perhaps she should just bite the bullet and stay behind the camera if this project gets the green light. I mean as a producer, Madge has the clout to bring together a superb team of artists, writers, cast etc. If she tried to act again in the film, she'd probably be shooting herself in the foot!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 16, 2009, 03:19:40 PM
Meryl Streep would make a better Wallis, IMO, but I do not think she would work with Madonna.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Vecchiolarry on February 16, 2009, 03:28:57 PM
Hi,

Do we really need another Wallis movie.  I remember Jane Seymour did a TV one and she was pretty bad and she's a much better actress than Madonna.  And, probably a better singer too!!
Madonna is just an over-hyped dirty girl, much like Paris Hilton (only Paris is prettier)....  Both are no talent bores!

Larry
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: alixaannencova on February 16, 2009, 03:56:25 PM
I always thought Kristin Scott Thomas would have made a good Wallis.....that brittle steeliness is there. But really the part if there is any truth in this tale of a letter being sent to the Queen, the part should really go to an American actress who 'can' act!


Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 16, 2009, 04:06:27 PM
I tend to agree with Larry.  There have been so many Wallis & Edward films already, what more is there to say ? I heard some years ago that ALW was considering a musical about them, but apparently nothing came of it.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Terence on February 16, 2009, 05:58:22 PM
In addition to being a poor actress who has shown an inability to put on any accent other than a patently fake British one, she's 10 years older than the Duchess when she married and, while thin, is too muscled and botoxed to convey an impersonation of her.

Come on, tell us what you really think. :)

All very true, but they do share something...an attitude, both think/thought they should be considered royalty and treated as such!

T
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Cozy aka Susan Flanders, Writer of Queens on February 18, 2009, 06:21:58 AM
She might be able to pull it off! It seems she is pretty obsessed with the story. With the correct clothing, hair, attitude and script..she might be the person to do it. Should be interesting. She has a slight frame, like the Duchess had...and an angular face these days.  It was definitely "Wallis against the world" and "Wallis in Wonderland." This might be up Madonna's alley. Wallis was a pretty tough broad. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: CHRISinUSA on February 18, 2009, 12:18:43 PM
Meryl Streep would make a better Wallis, IMO, but I do not think she would work with Madonna.

I thought Madonna did an adequate job with Evita; however, it was a musical after all.  I hardly think she has shown the depth or skills required to play the Duchess of Windsor.

Meryl is a superb actress and would be a much better choice than Madonna, but there is little physical resemblence between her and the slight Duchess.  I agree with Alix - Kristin Scott Thomas would be an excellent choice - she seems to have the skills, the physicality, and the steely reserve required for the part.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 18, 2009, 12:51:03 PM
Perhaps you are right Chris. But remember, miracles happen behind the screen in making a movie! Of course I have no idea if Meryl Streep would even be interested in doing Wallis, but make up magic and prosthetics can to the visual, and there is no doubt about her versatilty and talent as an actress.  Didn't one of the Windsors play the piano ? If so they [whomever "they" are] Could make it a musical and as Streep has recently demonstarted, she could even pull that off!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 18, 2009, 01:48:37 PM
Lets see how the project goes first. I agree Madonna might pull it off.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on February 19, 2009, 12:47:26 PM
If it's a musical I think Madonna would be great. If not and she just has to rely on her acting talents I don't think it would be very good at all. One of the reasons she was so good in Evita is that it was almost like an extended music video and she was judged more by how she sang and what sort of visual she could provide rather than how well she could actually act.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 19, 2009, 01:14:42 PM
It would be  too camp to hear  Wallis belting out "the man that got away" but a musical about the Windsors does sound like fun. That is, if anyone went to see it. Cher also comes to mind. She is a fine actress among her other talents and she has not been in a film for some time.  She is most likely too old and too tall, but then, movie magic can fix that.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 19, 2009, 02:33:53 PM
Cher as Wallis...A long shot. Maybe Bette Miidler can play Cookie.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 19, 2009, 02:38:40 PM
that would be way camp Eric! I love it! A "Half Breed" Wallis and a Jewish QM. Sounds like a drag show.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 19, 2009, 02:40:56 PM
Exactly !
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 19, 2009, 03:09:41 PM
Now, let's work on David and  Quuen Mary...how about Graham Norton and Lily Savage.? Or maybe Dame Edna ?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 19, 2009, 04:00:28 PM
Dame Edna would make a good Emerald Cunard...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 19, 2009, 04:13:56 PM
That would be cool.  We need to find a role for Danny LaRue... This could be quite a show, to say the least! Wallis & David go Panto...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 19, 2009, 04:45:55 PM
He could be Queen Mary, he look good in gems and a wig (Queen Mary wore one in her later years).

I think Madonna would make it into a musical, much easy to handle than a bio film.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: emeraldeyes on February 19, 2009, 08:01:14 PM
I always thought Kristin Scott Thomas would have made a good Wallis.....that brittle steeliness is there. But really the part if there is any truth in this tale of a letter being sent to the Queen, the part should really go to an American actress who 'can' act!

You are right on the money with that one!  When I saw Kristin Scott Thomas recently on the Golden Globes I said to my hisband immediately that she would make a great Wallis.


(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a190/emeraldeyes1969/84515311.jpg)

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 20, 2009, 11:58:32 AM
Yes...She was closer in looks. She could do a good job. Now...Madonna...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 20, 2009, 03:00:18 PM
Besides the looks, Madonna is simply a lousy actress. She might do a great job of producing such a project, though.
 Who would paly Wallis, though,would depend on what part of her life the film is concerned with, I think.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 21, 2009, 02:07:32 PM
Madonna is a good stage performer. She can sing and dance and do a fab show. I am her fan on stage. But she was no dramtic actress. Her performance was best in "Desperately Seeking Susan", "Evita" and "Dick Tracy".
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 21, 2009, 02:30:47 PM
I would agree, Eric. Madonna has a lot of spirit and energy. She was brilliant in Evita. Wallis  had it as well. But even with movie magic, I think it would hard for her to pull it off.  If there must be a new film on the D&D of Windsor, I would hope a really talented actress takes the role of Wallis. It is interesting, British actresses can  do an American accent better than Americans can a British accent. And there are many of both [accents as well as actresses, of course]
 As the real people are so familiar to so many of us, all around the world, casting  should be a critical factor. Madonna may immerse herself in the role, like she did  with Evita, but unless it is a singing and dancing event,  I honestly do not think she could draw the audience to pay for it. And, when it comes down to it- "money makes the world go 'round".
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 21, 2009, 02:35:57 PM
I agree. I just have to see what plans Madonna come up with this project. We are all speculating here. I do not think American actress cannot do a British accent. Remember "Bridget Jones' ? Even the British handed to Rene on the mastery of her take on the role.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 21, 2009, 02:46:42 PM
True, Eric, some can. [the accent] but it is usually rather perfunctory. Not specific. Now, Wallis was an an American from Baltimore, of course, and had a distinct accent of her own. It came from her schooling and her affectations. She worked at it, so to speak, not natural.
 You are quite correct, we are just speculating. This project is just being talked about. It is not even in pre-production stages. However, if it does go into production, I would hope it does justice to the people involved- Wallis, David, etc. I may not be a big fan of the Windsors, but I do appreciate a job well done, especially in films about history.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 21, 2009, 03:41:13 PM
Yes. Although drama has not been truthful to history these days. Just look at "The Tudors"...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 21, 2009, 04:03:13 PM
Well, since we are discussing the film media,  a lot of artistic licence would necessarily be taken. And since all the main players in that dram are dead,  even more so.
 I agree, the Tudors was dreadful, but not at as bad as the Coppola version of Marie Antoinette a few years ago. I think the best historical drama I have seen lately,other that documentaries, was The Queen, with Helen Mirren. That is the sort of treatment I would enjoy seeing about the Duchess of Windsor.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 22, 2009, 03:13:51 PM
The Queen was made by BBC. I dread the Madonna treatment on Wallis...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: alixaannencova on February 23, 2009, 01:21:32 AM
The Queen was made by BBC. I dread the Madonna treatment on Wallis...

Was it made by the BBC Eric...the last I read, it was actually made by Granada Productions which is one of the UK's ITV companies! One of my sources is www.itv.com what are yours for stating that 'The Queen' was made by the BBC Eric? I don't mean to sound like a know-all, but tut tut, that is the second time today I have felt obliged to question your sources!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 23, 2009, 03:57:44 AM
I think, perhaps, that Eric actually made in Britain, not lettrally the BBC. I checked my DVD copy and therte is no BBC logo or credit on it.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on February 23, 2009, 08:39:21 AM
I always thought Kim Cattrall would make a good Wallis. She doesn't look that much like her, but her voice and some of her mannerisms make me think she could do a really good job. She also has a mole on her chin just like Wallis did.

I really think it'd be nice to get an American in the role as Wallis has already been portrayed by British actresses. Jane Seymour was pretty good, but I really didn't like what Joely Richardson did. It seemed like she was trying so hard to do an American accent that didn't sound like Julia McNamara she ended up just sounding like Julia McNamara in a community theatre production of A Streetcar Named Desire. The only non-American actress who I think could really pull it off is Cate Blanchett. She played Katherine Hepburn really well and can do a lot of accents convincingly and really becomes her character. She also really became Elizabeth I in the Elizabeth movies even though I felt the writing wasn't that great and she really wasn't given much to work with. Cate Blanchett doesn't really remind me of Wallis, but I think she could play almost anyone convincingly.

Slightly OT, but did anyone else think that ring Angelina Jolie wore at the Oscars last night looked a lot like Wallis's engagement ring?


Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 23, 2009, 02:58:31 PM
Yes with the big green earrings too...

I agree Cate Blancett would be the best to play her.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lindelle on April 09, 2009, 08:10:42 AM
Hi everyone-I'm a newbie and still learning to roam this forum. But soooooo pleased to have found the discussion about Edward and Wallis. Has anyone any photo's of the home they lived in? I've searched a lot of sites and come up with nothing  :-*
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 10, 2009, 10:57:00 PM
I think the home in Neuilly which was bought by Dodi's father had been published. There is a book on their style written by Hugo Vickers, full of pictures.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on April 11, 2009, 12:03:04 AM
Hi everyone-I'm a newbie and still learning to roam this forum. But soooooo pleased to have found the discussion about Edward and Wallis. Has anyone any photo's of the home they lived in? I've searched a lot of sites and come up with nothing  :-*

You're right, Lindelle.  Photos of the exterior of the home seem quite rare while many have been published of the Duke and Duchess's interior decor.  Here is one where it was used as a backdrop to a fashion shoot, hence the posing model.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Obesemia/Windsor.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lindelle on April 11, 2009, 02:31:20 AM
Thanks so much friends for the info and pics. So the interior pics are easy to access? :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on April 13, 2009, 07:26:24 AM
You will certainly find some if you "google" around a bit.  Some were posted here on the forum, from memory, but I can't really remember where.  Sorry.  Someone else might be able to help.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: tom_romanov on April 13, 2009, 07:47:53 AM
Thanks so much friends for the info and pics. So the interior pics are easy to access? :)

Are we on about the villa on the Bois de Boulogne? If so I have quite a few. I will post them later as I'll have to scan them.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: tom_romanov on April 13, 2009, 08:58:52 AM
Well here they are :-

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/hall.jpg"  - The entrance hall.

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/bluedining.jpg"  - The Blue dining room (sorry for the crease).

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/bluesalon.jpg" - The Blue Salon.

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/libarary.jpg" - The Library.

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/libcouple.jpg" - Edward and Wallis (and a pug) in the Library.

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/dukebedroom.jpg" - Edward's bedroom.

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/duketable.jpg" - Edward's bedside table (notice all the picture of Wallis)

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/dukebathroom.jpg"  - Edward's bathroom ( the bath is covered by a board because he always took showers)

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/duchessbedroom.jpg" - Wallis' Bedroom (sorry for the crease)

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/duchessbathroom.jpg" - Wallis' Bathroom

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/img139.jpg" - A table in Wallis' bedroom
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Vecchiolarry on April 13, 2009, 09:17:11 AM
Hi,

Thank you Tom;  these pictures are great and very revealing, I think....
Notice all the photos of her - in portraits and pictures on his bedroom table, as you pointed out.
But, she has none of him - only those ugly pugs everywhere.  Ugh!!
It says a lot about them both, doesn't it??

Larry
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: tom_romanov on April 13, 2009, 11:52:39 AM
Your quite right Vecchiolarry, it speaks alot about their characters, all those pictures of Wallis- even in the bathroom! But then, times and people are different but those pugs! (I doubt I'd be able to sleep in Wallis' bedroom with all those teddies at the end of the bed).
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on April 13, 2009, 12:15:34 PM
She looks so elegant in this photo, meriting the reputation of being one of the best-dressed women of her time...........

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Wallisinbibnecklace.jpg)

Lots of pictures on this thread.  This is my favorite picture of Wallis.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on April 13, 2009, 12:17:13 PM
The lovely sapphire and diamond jarretiere bracelet - David's wedding gift to Wallis. I wonder if it made up for the lack of the HRH status that he had asked for her, or the small scale of their wedding celebrations?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Wallissapphirebracelet.jpg)

This is MY bracelet!

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 13, 2009, 12:36:34 PM
Wallis was more of a realist than sentimentalist. I think she grew to love him and depended on him (more than she realise). She did not need photos of Edward, since she saw him on a daily basis. Edward on the other hand (like most of Queen Mary's sons) had this "mother" complex that needed reconfirmation on a daily basis (interesting that Camilla seems to be doing that role for Charles now). It was no joke when Wallis told her friends that it is not easy to live out "the romance of the century". She was expected to be the strong one, the keeper. Even Queen Mary, later in life realised this trait in her sons, and made a final gift of reconciliation of a pearl necklace to Wallis. I think the old Queen would have liked to tie up the loose end with her eldest son, but did not due to consideration for King George VI and Queen Elizabeth (Queen Mum). It was perhaps fate that the Winsors's first official appearance in Britian was to open a plack dedicated to Queen Mary. She most certainly would have approved.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on April 13, 2009, 12:40:46 PM
Hi,

Thank you Tom;  these pictures are great and very revealing, I think....
Notice all the photos of her - in portraits and pictures on his bedroom table, as you pointed out.
But, she has none of him - only those ugly pugs everywhere.  Ugh!!
It says a lot about them both, doesn't it??

Larry

Actually, she did always have at least one picture of him on her bedside table, IIRC, but it's not visible in these pictures. She did have more pictures of the dogs than he did because they were her 'babies'. Kind of like Paris Hilton and Tinkerbell.

There are three great books with more pictures. The Private Life of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor by Hugo Vickers, The Windsor Style by Suzy Menkes, and the Sotheby's Auction guide from 1997. I have the last one which my mom got on ebay for a steal and I've checked the other two out of the library at various points. The pics tom romanov posted give the general idea, though. The whole place was very royal looking, though I think the pug pillows were rather tacky.


Our scanner is crap and gave out on me but I'll upload more as soon as I can, but here's what I got:

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/5504/windsorstudybooks.jpg

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5958/windsorbooks.jpg  (okay, this one is upside down, sorry!)

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/9149/windsordinner.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6939/windsorsalon.jpg

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/5866/windsorscanfoyerstairs.jpg

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/8839/windsordesk.jpg

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4462/windsorsalon2.jpg

Wallis was more of a realist than sentimentalist. I think she grew to love him and depended on him (more than she realise). She did not need photos of Edward, since she saw him on a daily basis. Edward on the other hand (like most of Queen Mary's sons) had this "mother" complex that needed reconfirmation on a daily basis (interesting that Camilla seems to be doing that role for Charles now).

I agree that she loved him very much, she was just more independent than he was. She was in love with him and she liked being spending time with him but she didn't need to be around him all the time to be happy. But he needed her and thought about her every second she wasn't with him. It definitely had something to do with his relationship with his mother that he was so dependent on her. He would get fidgety and frustrated when she wasn't with him while she didn't need him all the time. If you look at her letters (especially from after they were married) she missed him when she had to go a while without seeing him but on the flip side there were times when she really wanted time to herself and got a bit claustrophobic with his constant attention. It reminds me of one of my favorite songs "Leave Me Alone, I'm Lonely". (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7JCcHOnMyw)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 13, 2009, 12:50:37 PM
Anyone have a scan of the famous Bib necklace ?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on April 13, 2009, 01:49:53 PM
Anyone have a scan of the famous Bib necklace ?

I think it was posted earlier on this thread, but the picture may not be showing up anymore... On the subject Amy Adams wore something that reminded me a bit of that necklace to the Oscars. It's one of those pieces that looks rather ugly when you see a picture of it, but when worn properly with just the right outfit it looks really edgy and cool.

http://z.about.com/d/accessories/1/0/K/K/-/-/amy-adams-oscars-2009.jpg
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 13, 2009, 01:57:07 PM
Yes. That piece is very "Cartier".
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: CountessKate on April 13, 2009, 01:59:36 PM
Quote
Anyone have a scan of the famous Bib necklace ?

There's a picture here: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=7635.420 about halfway down the page.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 13, 2009, 02:03:14 PM
Not the same. The other one was set in gold with multi colour stones...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lindelle on April 16, 2009, 07:01:02 AM
Thanks Grace :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lindelle on April 16, 2009, 07:11:31 AM
And Tom, thankyou so much for the pics. It quite surprised me as I imagined their home to be light and airy. Apparently (if we dare to believe so) Dodi took Diana through this house and she didn't like it. Yet that may be a rumour. But wow, what a place to live in, different hey? Thanks again :-*
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Douglas on April 17, 2009, 12:23:02 AM
I used to think their life in exile was exciting and fun.  But now I look at that faux Paris palace and their life during those years and  I feel suffocated and sad.

 I suppose given their background and state of mind, that is about all that could be expected of the two.

Douglas
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on April 17, 2009, 07:11:40 AM
Douglas,

I think you are correct in your evaluation of their live then.  However, if the were alive today and in their prime (40s-60s) they would fit right in with the celebrity culture of today.  Think Sarah Ferguson. 

They would be offered a reality TV show.  They would be on the cover of all the magazines.  They would lunch with P. Ditty and Ivana Trump.

I think the Duchess loved and coveted the quiet, reserved life of the old moneyed rich a la Jackie Kennedy and Brook Astor but I think the Duke coveted the spotlight and all the attention.

Just my humble opinion.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Tsaritsa on April 17, 2009, 09:29:36 AM
I just finished reading the thread.  I really enjoyed everyone's thoughts and insights into Wallis and David.

I saw a picture years ago of David and Wallis on New Years.  I assume it was New Years.  Anyway.....they were both wearing party crowns.  I Google'd it and came up empty.  Does anyone have the picture or know anything about it?  I thought it was rather sad.  They were older in the picture.  They just seemed so miserable.  Though with David's perennial woebegone expression who can tell? 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on April 17, 2009, 09:48:17 AM
I think David was more miserable than Wallis in that her life offered her more outlets for her talents.

I never understood what the Duke's talents were.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Keith on April 17, 2009, 11:58:32 AM
I've seen the picture also. Not sure if I saw it in one of their bios or not.

If I remember correctly it was at New Years 1953 and the crowns were worn as it was the coronation year.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Tsaritsa on April 17, 2009, 12:44:21 PM
Thanks, Keith.  I thought it was New Years.  I would love to see to again.  I'm sure it was in a book or magazine.  I hope to see it soon. 


Douglas,

I think you are correct in your evaluation of their live then.  However, if the were alive today and in their prime (40s-60s) they would fit right in with the celebrity culture of today.  Think Sarah Ferguson. 

They would be offered a reality TV show.  They would be on the cover of all the magazines.  They would lunch with P. Ditty and Ivana Trump.

I think the Duchess loved and coveted the quiet, reserved life of the old moneyed rich a la Jackie Kennedy and Brook Astor but I think the Duke coveted the spotlight and all the attention.

Just my humble opinion.

TampaBay

Sounds fun and exciting doesn't it?  To party and have the cash to live how you want and do what you please.  Be on all the magazine covers.  Maybe to some.  Not to me.  I agree with you Tampa.  I think Wallis wanted peace and quiet.  David on the other hand liked the spotlight.  I wonder if it had anything to do with being POW.  He certainly was adored and used to preferential treatment.  After stepping down he wasn't always accorded that.  It must have been difficult for him.  He wanted it for the Duchess.  In their home of course she was addressed as HRH.  I think he was on a never ending search to regain what he had lost.  From the public and Cafe society yes.  From the Royal family no.  Or at least not for Wallis.   
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on April 17, 2009, 05:12:53 PM
I just finished reading the thread.  I really enjoyed everyone's thoughts and insights into Wallis and David.

I saw a picture years ago of David and Wallis on New Years.  I assume it was New Years.  Anyway.....they were both wearing party crowns.  I Google'd it and came up empty.  Does anyone have the picture or know anything about it?  I thought it was rather sad.  They were older in the picture.  They just seemed so miserable.  Though with David's perennial woebegone expression who can tell? 
(http://i87.servimg.com/u/f87/13/37/91/62/scanfo10.jpg)

http://i87.servimg.com/u/f87/13/37/91/62/scanfo10.jpg

Scanned from Stephen Birmingham's biography of Wallis. This what you wanted?


Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Keith on April 17, 2009, 06:05:53 PM
That's the same one I found.

I'm just curious, do you have the hardback copy of the book. I have the paperback and the picture stops right above Wallis' hands.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on April 17, 2009, 06:16:09 PM
They certainly don't look miserable in this photo to me.  I am frankly surprised that David would have allowed such a photo to be taken, coronation year or otherwise.  I think it rather proves to us all that he did not take the role he was born to with particular gravity - either at the time he inherited the crown or later. 

Of course there will be those who disagree and think I'm being too harsh...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Tsaritsa on April 17, 2009, 06:32:17 PM
Jeniann, thank you so much for posting the picture. 

As I said it has been years since I saw the photo.  You're right Grace they don't look miserable.  I too am surprised that the pair would pose wearing crowns.  My memory is obviously not what it used to be.   ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Douglas on April 17, 2009, 06:51:09 PM
Oldtimers that lived in that era have told me that the party photo was much lampooned in it's day.  Many critics of the pair snidely said that the only crown the former king actually wore was a "paper party crown."

In retrospect,  it does look absurd in an odd garish way.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on April 17, 2009, 07:57:52 PM
They certainly don't look miserable in this photo to me.  I am frankly surprised that David would have allowed such a photo to be taken, coronation year or otherwise.  I think it rather proves to us all that he did not take the role he was born to with particular gravity - either at the time he inherited the crown or later. 

Of course there will be those who disagree and think I'm being too harsh...

I think you're dead-on Grace. It's rather surprising, especially in the Coronation year of a monarch who became Queen because of his actions. He actually looks less woebegone (as someone accurately described him) than usual.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on April 17, 2009, 09:18:09 PM
That's the same one I found.

I'm just curious, do you have the hardback copy of the book. I have the paperback and the picture stops right above Wallis' hands.
Yeah, I have the hardback.

In their defense, apparently it was a party and a bunch of other people were wearing the paper crowns too. Still a bit undignified, though.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Terence on April 17, 2009, 10:08:18 PM
In their defense, apparently it was a party and a bunch of other people were wearing the paper crowns too. Still a bit undignified, though.

For Americans it might help to understand that wearing paper crowns is an old British tradition at the holidays.  I was surpised at this when my wife's family insisted we all wear these goofy things one Christmas.  Her grandma was an immigrant from Scotland.

A bit bizarre that the Duke of Winsor would consent to the 2 of them being photographed that way, but it had been many years since he lost his crown, maybe he just had a sense of humor about it by then.  Who knows since none of us was there at the moment.

T
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: RichC on April 18, 2009, 01:20:22 PM
In their defense, apparently it was a party and a bunch of other people were wearing the paper crowns too. Still a bit undignified, though.

For Americans it might help to understand that wearing paper crowns is an old British tradition at the holidays.  I was surpised at this when my wife's family insisted we all wear these goofy things one Christmas.  Her grandma was an immigrant from Scotland.

A bit bizarre that the Duke of Winsor would consent to the 2 of them being photographed that way, but it had been many years since he lost his crown, maybe he just had a sense of humor about it by then.  Who knows since none of us was there at the moment.

T

I have numerous British relatives but I've never heard of this particular custom around Christmas.

Edward VIII and Wallis (to whom I am distantly related by marriage) weren't very nice people.  She was a gold digger, pure and simple, and he was a fool with the maturity of a teenager. 

I think I read somewhere that she was a dominatrix.  Has anyone else ever heard that story?  Maybe that's why Madonna wants to portray her in the movie!  LOL
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Douglas on April 18, 2009, 02:17:10 PM
The pulling of Christmas crackers often accompanies food on Christmas Day. Invented by a London baker in 1846, a cracker is a brightly coloured paper tube, twisted at both ends, which contains a party hat, riddle and toy or other trinket. When it is pulled by two people it gives out a crack as its contents are dispersed.

The wearing of the paper hats and crowns is a British tradition that is often seen in films of that era.  And yes, it's looks goofy to us today.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on April 18, 2009, 04:23:28 PM
The pulling of Christmas crackers often accompanies food on Christmas Day. Invented by a London baker in 1846, a cracker is a brightly coloured paper tube, twisted at both ends, which contains a party hat, riddle and toy or other trinket. When it is pulled by two people it gives out a crack as its contents are dispersed.

The wearing of the paper hats and crowns is a British tradition that is often seen in films of that era.  And yes, it's looks goofy to us today.



It does?  Lots of people still wear paper hats at Christmas and birthdays where I come from.  Not crowns though. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on April 18, 2009, 09:23:17 PM
The pulling of Christmas crackers often accompanies food on Christmas Day. Invented by a London baker in 1846, a cracker is a brightly coloured paper tube, twisted at both ends, which contains a party hat, riddle and toy or other trinket. When it is pulled by two people it gives out a crack as its contents are dispersed.

The wearing of the paper hats and crowns is a British tradition that is often seen in films of that era.  And yes, it's looks goofy to us today.



My English grandmother used to have those at Christmas dinner, but they never had paper hats. Usually there was a little toy and maybe a piece of candy.

Of course this was much later in the 1990's. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: tom_romanov on April 19, 2009, 06:31:40 AM
I have no idea how this topic went from Edward and Wallis to party hats/crowns!  ;D However if you are referring to the tissue paper crowns you get in Christmas crackers, along with a joke (what sits at the bottom of the sea and shivers? - a nervous wreck! hilarious ::) ) and a little toy ( four dominoes - wow!) then my family still put them on for about 5 minutes then they get discarded or put on the dog  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: TampaBay on April 19, 2009, 08:02:21 AM
One of the things Wallis wore very little of after 1940 based on pictures was hats.  This is a departue from most Royal women of the time.

However, Wallis made up for it in the Jewelry department.  The bib neklaces and chunky jewelry are just as fashionable today as they were in her hey day as member of the international best dressed list.

TampaBay
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on April 20, 2009, 03:35:13 PM


Personally, I think it was the right decision for her. She didn't look good in the kind of big hats the Queen Mother and Queen Elizabeth II have been known for. Also, IMHO some of the hats the women of Windsor have worn are just way too much, to the point of being tacky. When Wallis did wear a hat it was always simple and not overdone.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lucien on July 16, 2009, 01:25:18 PM
Britain's Nazi King:

http://library/digiguide.com/lib/uk-tv-highlight/Britain's-Nazi-King+-+Revealed-7558/Documentary/

Tonight on five at 08.00.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: joan_d on August 28, 2009, 04:03:44 AM


As is the usual custom for an out-of-town dignitary, "entertainment" was arranged: a woman of the Stuart Line, through the Kirkpatricks and the Potters. They spent most of the weekend drinking.  Most of it.

I was born nine months later.   And it took nearly forty years for that Army nurse to come clean with the whole story.

Hi. I'm the Duke's illegitimate daughter, born in his fifthtieth year, 1944.  Nice to meet you.

Surprise, surprise!   Believe me, I was more than surprised at all this.

I'm now old enough to care, and to go back into history to understand what happened and why.



mg width=219 height=151]http://www.holyconservancy.org/images/chil/edwardat22.jpg[/img]

Oh dear - I can recommend a good therapist.


Emily Elizabeth Windsor-Cragg, age now 65.


Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 28, 2009, 03:32:23 PM
Xmas crakers?  Sure, I have them every  holiday for over 30 years.  Sometimes  on birthdays- especially if in December. Yhe hats are just tissue paper cutouts and just for a brief bit of fun. Destined for the recycle bin. The more  one spends, the better the  "surprises". The Windsors probaby came from Hatchards, I prefer Fortnum & Mason.most folks probably got them from Woolworths- or cheaper even. The last time I was at Windsor castle, they were selling them. They probably had crowns. The Windsors may have been at a nightclub  with jimmy donahue!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: joan_d on August 30, 2009, 11:34:19 AM
The pulling of Christmas crackers often accompanies food on Christmas Day. Invented by a London baker in 1846, a cracker is a brightly coloured paper tube, twisted at both ends, which contains a party hat, riddle and toy or other trinket. When it is pulled by two people it gives out a crack as its contents are dispersed.

The wearing of the paper hats and crowns is a British tradition that is often seen in films of that era.  And yes, it's looks goofy to us today.




Crackers !!!   Certainly the right subject for this thread.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: mcdnab on August 31, 2009, 10:24:17 AM
Well the idea of some conspiracy to remove Edward VIII is hardly new, however the official paperwork and the numerous accounts from letters and diaries of the period suggest several things none of them leading to a "plot".
It is also worth bearing mind that Britain is a "Parliamentary" monarchy - a monarch that is unacceptable to Parliament can't stay on the throne without a clash.
Edward backed himself into a corner - once he'd informed Baldwin of his determination to marry Wallis either on or off the throne he'd given the Prime Minister and himself no room for any alternative option.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Beautiful B.C on August 31, 2009, 02:32:48 PM
Vicker Hugo has a new book scheduled for release September 2010 titled, "Behind Closed Doors : The life and death of the Duchess of Windsor."
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Beautiful B.C on August 31, 2009, 03:40:04 PM
I'm sorry for the mistake...... Hugo Vickers!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Forum Admin on September 01, 2009, 03:28:11 PM
I have tossed out the lunatic pressing claims to be the illegitimate bastard child of the Duke of Windsor and a paid prostitute.  We brook no tolerance for unsubstantiated claims, more so today when a cheap DNA test can conclusively prove or disprove the claim.

I admit I was at first willing to allow her to post, without any reference to her claims of paternity until I saw her own website.  That made my decision easy. This is a place of genuine historical discussion, backed up with facts, not wild assertions.

Thanks to the person who gave me the heads up about this.   This lunatic is banned, like all the rest.

carry on

FA
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LillyO on September 01, 2009, 04:16:22 PM
Thank You FA!  I saw that website also and applaud your actions.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 01, 2009, 05:45:32 PM
3 cheers indeed. These people are so tiresome. A waste of time.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: RoyalWatcher on September 01, 2009, 05:50:00 PM
Oh thank goodness. It was quite disturbing.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 01, 2009, 06:11:32 PM
Back to the Windsors..I meant Harrod's when talking abouth their xmas crackers, of course. Hatchard's is a bookstore on Piccadilly. And TB, Wallis was not royal, so why should she wear the same thing they wore, especially those hats.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: CountessKate on September 04, 2009, 06:18:51 AM
Quote
One of the things Wallis wore very little of after 1940 based on pictures was hats.  This is a departue from most Royal women of the time.

Actually, it was a departure for a woman to wear no hat outside the home generally at that time - I have a photo of my mother dressed in a very chic outfit with a smart beret and white gloves all ready to go on a plane journey in the 1950s.  And she was by no means from an upper class or moneyed family - it was just the correct way to dress.  I don't think it was really until the 1960s that hats really went out as part of dressing 'properly'.  Wallis was well ahead of the trend.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lindelle on September 26, 2009, 06:56:16 AM
Well here they are :-

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/hall.jpg"  - The entrance hall.

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/bluedining.jpg"  - The Blue dining room (sorry for the crease).

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/bluesalon.jpg" - The Blue Salon.

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/libarary.jpg" - The Library.

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/libcouple.jpg" - Edward and Wallis (and a pug) in the Library.

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/dukebedroom.jpg" - Edward's bedroom.

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/duketable.jpg" - Edward's bedside table (notice all the picture of Wallis)

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/dukebathroom.jpg"  - Edward's bathroom ( the bath is covered by a board because he always took showers)

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/duchessbedroom.jpg" - Wallis' Bedroom (sorry for the crease)

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/duchessbathroom.jpg" - Wallis' Bathroom

-<"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/img139.jpg" - A table in Wallis' bedroom
Lovely, Thankyou so  much Tom :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Rani on January 08, 2010, 01:16:17 PM
Edward with siblings (Mary and ?)

(http://i48.tinypic.com/24uwyh3.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on January 08, 2010, 05:28:51 PM
...little Bertie (later King George VI, Queen Elizabeth II's father).
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: RoyalWatcher on January 09, 2010, 10:28:13 AM
David's facial features are so unique as compared to the other York children. He obviously takes after the Teck side of the family, but who specifically? Grandduchessella, do you have any ideas?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 09, 2010, 02:47:12 PM
Definitely not Francis Teck . Maybe his mother ?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on January 10, 2010, 10:09:07 PM
David's facial features are so unique as compared to the other York children. He obviously takes after the Teck side of the family, but who specifically? Grandduchessella, do you have any ideas?

I really don't. It's hard to say what the Duke of Teck's mother looked like since there are so few portraits of her and I don't think that he resembled the Duke's Wurttemburg father. The few pictures I've seen of the Duke's sisters, they seem rather heavy featured. It seems his fairer coloring came from Queen Mary who seemed to get it from her mother rather than her darker father. So perhaps David resembled the Cambridge side of the family?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 10, 2010, 10:33:08 PM
Yes. May was a blond but her brother Frank was dark & handsome.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LivingInDFW on February 09, 2010, 08:40:11 PM
Hello, all.  I'm new to this forum. I don't consider myself a royal lover nor a monarchist, but I have a strong interest in the history and, yes, even some of the gossip. While I'm not an expert by any means, I do have my opinion which I'm eager to share. It's so interesting to read this forum and realize that there are still many people deeply moved by the subject of Edward VIII and his short reign.

While in hindsight it may seem the Duke of Windsor would not have made a good King, we cannot ever be certain.  Had he been allowed to carry out his duties as King and marry Wallis, he may have stopped his obsession and concentrated on his duties. I'm not saying he would or would not have made a good King; I'm merely pointing out that one cannot be sure how history would have played out.  Further, it is my understanding that he wanted his family to receive his wife, as well as carry out some official royal role as Duke.  Had the Duchess of Windsor been accepted by his family and the Duke given his royal 'job,' perhaps the ceaseless globetrotting and parties would not have been their chosen path.  Who's to say?  At any rate, Elizabeth II would still be Queen today.

George VI and his Queen were the right pair for the job for the times.  I do not like the way they treated the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.  It's ridiculous that he could never take his wife home.  It's not only mean-spirited, there is an unspeakable cruelty about an ongoing grudge match.  I don't care how good you are at your job or if your loved 'by your people'--the Royals behavior spoke volumes about their overall character.  It's petty and un-Christian for the Head of the Church of England and his family to set that example.

As the son of a twice-divorced American woman, I know only too well how disapproving family can damage not only the relationship, but the self-esteem of the individuals being made to feel less- or not-equal-to others.  It's shallow and has no place in my life.

Now, don't take this as an endorsement of the D&D of Windsor, they behaved badly, too.  However, they'll always be remembered, and people are still talking about them.

Thanks for reading.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 09, 2010, 10:15:32 PM
Welcome to the forum.  :)

The closest evidence we have to how they might have carried out royal duties if they'd been accepted into the royal family is their time when the Duke was the Governor of the Bahamas. Reports of personal and professional behavior wasn't exactly to their credit. Wallis, for instance, was heavily criticised for her extravagant shopping trips to the United States, undertaken when Britain was under rationing and blackout and referred to the natives as "lazy, thriving n*****s" in letters to her aunt. Churchill had to complain when the planned to tour the Caribbean on a yacht owned by a Swedes believed (incorrectly it seems but the appearance was there) of pro-German leanings and again over a defeatist interview given by the Duke. The Duke referred to the Bahamas as "a third-class British colony" andsaid of Étienne Dupuch, the editor of the Nassau Daily Tribune: "It must be remembered that Dupuch is more than half Negro, and due to the peculiar mentality of this Race, they seem unable to rise to prominence without losing their equilibrium." He was praised for his resolution of civil unrest over low wages in Nassau in 1942, even though he blamed the trouble on communist agitators and draft-dodging Jews. Everything points to both of them 'just not getting it'. Some of these attitudes were reflections of the time but the British royal family had been known for being pretty open-minded and tolerant of different races and religions--to the despair of some of their friends and relations.

Divorce was also unthinkable back then--obviously divorcees are more welcome in the royal family in today's climes. There were a myriad of reasons for the grudge between the couples and, while I don't condone all the behavior, I don't blame them for it either. Edward VII broke a sacred trust in the family by choosing personal happiness over duty. It might seem ridiculous that one couldn't have both but the reality was in that time, one couldn't. He made his choice and was forced to live with the consequences.Even knowing before his marriage, via the Letters Patent, that Wallis wouldn't be HRH, he spent the early days of his brother's reign (not like his brother had anything going on) haranguing him daily via phone about the matter. And whatever feelings he might have had, I have trouble believing that Wallis would have really preferred a life ala the Gloucesters or even the more soignee Kents to the jet-set life they enjoyed. I just have trouble picturing her in an endless round of ribbon-cutting and hospital opening.
 
I remember a quote from Kenneth Rose's book that basically said Queen Mary told him that his countrymen had sacrificed so much during the War and the aftermath that they should be able to expect the same sense of sacrifice from their monarch.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 09, 2010, 11:08:26 PM
Ella you talk of sacrifice in the event of world war...or least use it in a comparison via quote reference to WWI!


May I just clarify whether or not it is a fact that Eleanor Rooselvelt or a member of her entourage intimated that QETQM flouted the rationing restrictions during WWII? Also, Queen Mary moved from London, literally requisitioned Badminton and spent the war overseeing the culling of ivy all on an annuity of 60 thousand pounds + a year! I do find the ethos of sacrifice in such cases rather difficult to swallow!


I do think that the freezing out of the Windsors was taken to extreme! It was almost personal! I thought the Monarchy strived to be about the People!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 10, 2010, 08:46:19 AM
Ella you talk of sacrifice in the event of world war...or least use it in a comparison via quote reference to WWI!


May I just clarify whether or not it is a fact that Eleanor Rooselvelt or a member of her entourage intimated that QETQM flouted the rationing restrictions during WWII? Also, Queen Mary moved from London, literally requisitioned Badminton and spent the war overseeing the culling of ivy all on an annuity of 60 thousand pounds + a year! I do find the ethos of sacrifice in such cases rather difficult to swallow!


I do think that the freezing out of the Windsors was taken to extreme! It was almost personal! I thought the Monarchy strived to be about the People!

WW2 hadn't happened yet so when QM made the comment about sacrificing personal happiness because of the sacrifice of the citizenry of the country during WW1 and the Depression, I believe it was apprapos. I think the bottom line of her comment was that the Duke of Windsor consistently put himself ahead of his country and countrymen.

And the freezing out wasn't 'almost personal', it was very personal.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 10, 2010, 08:51:47 AM
I agree the D&D didn't show much promise during the Governorship of the Bahamas.  Obviously, neither was pleased about the location of their exile, but stronger characters would have done their duties and kept complaints to themselves.

The racist comments the Duke made were in line with his rearing, though.  It was his father, George V, who remarked during the Titanic inquiry that men who purchased 1st class passage on the vessel should have been guaranteed a seat on the lifeboats (ahead of women and children of 2nd and 3rd class bookings).  That doesn't make any of the comments acceptable, but the sense of entitlement and social order was a dominant theme in their lives.

I had never heard that--where did you read it? And yes, if true, it would reek of unacceptable entitlement but not the racism that permeated much of the comments of the Windsors.

Bottom line, I detest the Duke of Windsor for a myriad of reasons, though growing up I thought him such a romantic figure and was a big fan. The more I read of his private writings about his family (esp his brother John), his personal and private conduct and so on, the less and less I cared for him.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 10, 2010, 09:38:35 AM
I think there are too Davids...The one before his abdication and one after. I think his negative side came out more after he was sidelined. I actually liked the Duchess better. She was a no-nonsense girl from Baltimore who was calputed into a situation.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on February 10, 2010, 03:08:07 PM
Completely agree with you, Eric!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 10, 2010, 04:05:49 PM
Thanks. I think he is a bit complexed in character. He love Britian but did not have the confidence that it can win the war against Germany. I would say more misguided than treasonable.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: mcdnab on February 11, 2010, 04:41:46 PM
The reference in the letter of Queen Mary was to the sacrifices made in the First World War.
 During the Second World War the King was insistant over his mother's objections that she should go somewhere safe (she wanted to stay in London as she had no great affection for the country) - Badminton was the choice because it was the home of her niece (who had married the Duke of Beaufort). The annuity she received was her civil list payment which she received as Queen Dowager. She made numerous local engagements throughout the war and often stopped her car to pick up passing servicemen and women. There wasn't much more a woman approaching her 80's could do really.

Eleanor Roosevelt was impressed by the pretty unpleasant conditions at Buckingham Palace on her visits - and several other people in society thought the Royal Family "Very ration concious".

The grudge between them all has long been over exaggerated - David in exile was a man who had been deferred to and listened to throughout his entire adult life and he never really understood just why his family felt they couldn't accept Wallis. Their attraction to unsuitable characters, the fact that he lied to King George VI about his financial assets, the fact that he attempted to upstage his brother on several occassions before the outbreak of war just made things worse and hardened attitudes in London (and it wasn't just the Royal Family even former allies like Churchill found the Duke and his constant demands an irritant). I think that the general view of the hatred directed towards them which they encouraged has very little basis in fact...their useless post war life was largely their own fault - Edward wanted to move to the States in the 40's (he had no great affinity for France or the French) however he was desperate to be attached to the British Embassy so as to avoid having to pay Tax. The Government view was that he shouldn't have any official position so he stayed in France!

Ella you talk of sacrifice in the event of world war...or least use it in a comparison via quote reference to WWI!


May I just clarify whether or not it is a fact that Eleanor Rooselvelt or a member of her entourage intimated that QETQM flouted the rationing restrictions during WWII? Also, Queen Mary moved from London, literally requisitioned Badminton and spent the war overseeing the culling of ivy all on an annuity of 60 thousand pounds + a year! I do find the ethos of sacrifice in such cases rather difficult to swallow!


I do think that the freezing out of the Windsors was taken to extreme! It was almost personal! I thought the Monarchy strived to be about the People!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 11, 2010, 05:53:26 PM
I think The Duke had a legitimate grudge against his brother for not allowing Wallis to be HRH. The law is quite clear that Wallis should be an HRH, to deny her the title basically reduce her to a morganetic marriage, which the wife cannot hold the same dignity as her royal husband. Queen Victoria once said "We don't have this (morganetic marriages) in our country, if a prince marries a peasent girl, she would be considered as royal as any princess." One of the most famous was Queen Elizabeth Woodville, wife of King Edward IV. Also the newswas given to the Duke on his wedding day (he burst into tears), which should be the most happy day of his life. He gave up the throne for Wallis, but couldn;t even give her a proper title. I think that is unfair legally on the part of the Royal Family. All the bad blood came from this insensitive act.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 11, 2010, 07:09:07 PM
Simply put, Eric, you are mistaken. There is no  "law" about this.  The only rule that would apply is "the soveriegn is font of all honours". As such, it is up to that sovereign- and  only him  or her to grant an HRH.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 11, 2010, 07:45:39 PM
According to the Lord Chancellor, Viscount Jowitt in a letter to the Prime Minister Clement Attlee written in 1949 and pertaining to the deprivation of the HRH status from Wallis, Lord Jowitt maintained that the basis for the deprivation as implemented from the Letters Patent of 27th May 1937 "are founded upon a complete misapprehension of the law." But this became an irrelevant point of observation as the then Prime Minister Baldwin had acquiesced and the deprivation was carried out with the sanction of the elected Government Cabinet in May 1937.


Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 11, 2010, 09:39:12 PM
Simply put Wallis was entitled to the HRH which did not seem to be a problem at the time of the abdication. David thought Bertie & Elisabeth (particularly) stabbed him at the back, hense he became a loose cannon. In this case, I do feel that the Royal Family was not totally straight forward with the Duke & The Duchess.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 11, 2010, 10:11:34 PM
Actually Eric I have to agree!

When David abdicated he was I believe no longer subject to the terms of the Royal Marriage Act 1772 as he was no longer in the line of succession! Therefore the issue of his marriage and the titles of his future wife did fall outside the remits of the original act! It is a very interesting issue which I did not really understand until recently! Actually I am still not certain of it to be honest....but I do gather that David was under the impression that Wallis would be an HRH upon marriage because of his unique position having abdicated.

With the prospect of marriage I think the decision to deprive Wallis of the HRH was a crafty chicane move as well as a way to ensure that any issue David and Wallis had would be excluded from any rights or aspirations to the throne! I must say though I do not know.....did David abdicate not only for himself but also for any lawfully begotten issue he may have had in the 'future' when he signed the instrument in December 1936 or was it just a word of mouth agreement that later had to be cast in vellum so to speak by the Master of the Rolls!


I am very unsure of all the legalities but I do see where you are coming from on this Eric....although as the Prime Minister and Cabinet of the day sanctioned the deprivation I can not see it as illegal! Saying that, was what Blair did in 2003 with the approval of his Cabinet legal! NO NO NO Margot Stop it!!!!! Naughty Margot!!!!!.... Sorry I slipped into another issue there I do beg everyone's pardon!


Back to the HRH title....hmmmmm....I do wonder!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 11, 2010, 11:48:20 PM
OK, get this  straight,  Wallis  WAS Duchess of Windsor  by virtue of her marriage to the Duke.  [Mrs. Duke]  That is a title. The STYLE HRH is by the sole virtue of the sovereign.  By the exact same token.  Diana  WAS Princess of Wales, after the divorce she was no longer HRH. No one deprived her of anything, she was simply not married to  an HRH any longer.
 In Wallis' case,  she married after he abdicated and had no  power to endow the STYLE. IF she had married him before,  she might  gain the HRH but it did not happen that way, did it? Edward [David] was an HRH  because of his birth,  Wallis was not. In any case, all parties are dead now and what difference does it make? I am not saying Cookie was blameless in all this, but Wallis did not seem to really care one way or the other.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 12, 2010, 12:45:14 AM
Robert I quite see where you are coming from! I do honest!

I just wanted to put my tuppence in about David not being covered by the Royal Marriages Act 1772 and that his postion and that of his future wife as HRH Prince Edward was different from any other member of the family past, present or future!

The fact I find so interesting, was the necessity as I understand it, for the Letters Patent of May 27th 1937 to somehow have to state in so many words that Wallis was to be Duchess of Windsor but that she was not to be styled HRH!

The case of Diana always irks me as in Britain as the divorced wife of a Duke may style her say Margot, Duchess of X but she loses the right to known officially as Her Grace the Duchess of X or even simply as Your Grace. This is why after the divorce it was decided that Diana's style and precedence should follow the example set of divorced Duchesses of the realms! Hence no HRH in a way similar to divorced Duchesses sans the Your/Her Grace' style!

As you say Robert it is old hat anyway....a curious and outdated issue of precedence!



Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 12, 2010, 01:03:21 AM
People bowed & scarped their forlocks  for Diana, ... she remained  Princess of Wales,  [until she remarried] just as a divorced  MRS remained a Mrs [even if  former] She also remained "Highness,  just not a royal one. Sadly, fate made the whole issue mute. [I am not sure about the "Grace business, but think  that iss reserved for  non-royal dukes and senior clergy- bishops]
 In the case of Wallis,  It was not really a matter of precedence, so much- people tend to address you as you like to be. A lot of people call me "Lord Hall". Big deal.  I do not run around  using that moniker. I think Wallis was quite happy  just being a  common Duchess. It certainly did not bother her as much as it did the Duke.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 12, 2010, 02:42:57 AM
I think you may be right Robert about the depravation of the HRH style in the case of Wallis. I hope that she did not let it eat away at her like it seens to have done the Duke of Windsor.

As a side note as soon as Charles and Diana's divorce was through Diana lost the style of HRH and had no right to bear the the style of HH either. People may have felt she was still a Princess but she no longer was and she was never technically or officially 'Princess Diana' but rather HRH the Princess of Wales during her marriage. After the divorce she reverted to Diana, Princess of Wales without any right to the style of HRH or Highness. If anything she was entitled by right to revert and become known formally as Lady Diana Spencer, Princess of Wales. She was not permitted to be known officially as Her Highness Diana, Princess of Wales.

Very off thread sorry....but I did not bring Diana into this!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on February 12, 2010, 07:20:26 AM
Margot has summed up Diana's position admirably.

As to the abdication, Parliament gave formal effect to Edward VIII's Instrument of Abdication by His Majesty's Declaration of Abdication Act 1936, which went through both Houses the next day. This, inter alia, provided that Edward was no longer covered by the 1772 Act, and that neither he no any 'iisue of his body' had any rights of succession to the throne.

In my view, wives of HRHs are styled HRH purely as a matter of courtesy, in the same way as wives of peers are styled 'the Countess of X' or whatever. As a matter of the royal prerogative, George VI was quite entitled to stipulate that the Duchess of Windsor should not be styled HRH. In my view, this was done mainly because it was thought unlikely that the marriage would endure, and there was the possibility of a divorced Duchess of Windsor running about, but also because, in plain English, the Duchess was a severe embarrassment to the royal family, and likely to remain so.

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 12, 2010, 02:24:22 PM
Ta very much Ann for clarifying the point about possible issue of the marriage! I had no idea about that bit!

Right I think I get what is what now with regards to David and Wallis and the HRH thing! I just do not think that the law as set in ink and vellum provided for the event of a King abdicating and therefore being exempt from the Royal Marriages Act! Anyway I am not a lawyer nor am I an expert on constitutional legalities but I think we can safely say that King and Cabinet made a decision and thus that decision was legal!

Anyway as Robert pointed out, it does not appear to have bothered Wallis that much!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 12, 2010, 02:52:43 PM
As David/Edward seems to have been sexually dysfunctional  and Wallis  unable to  have children, [various sources] I think the idea of issue was rather irrelevant. However it apparently meant something in the  time. I personally do not care much for either of them,  but I like Wallis' style and determination. Edward, to me, was just a whinny, greedy wimpy, always feeling persecuted.  one of those people who blame all their problems on everyone but themselves. Wallis got what she wanted- a glamorous life, if not very productive. Beautiful homes, and  first class travel. BTW, she refused to fly, so was really a "jet-setter"  But preferred  the liners.  That I can  understand, I hate to fly as well, it is such a chore. I think she would be horrified of the likes of Easyjet if she were still alive. I know she flew back to England  for David's funeral, but it was like pulling teeth to get on the plane! But, by then, she was a broken old woman.  She had quite a colourfull life, to say the least. She made David shine,  even if he was an imbecile.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 12, 2010, 03:57:19 PM
Really Robert I did giggle when I saw Wallis and Easyjet in the same sentence......what a picture it conjures up!!!! And I think we now all know how you feel about the Duke in particular!

I stayed on the Queen Mary a couple of years ago and had a good snoop through the staterooms the Windsors used when they travelled on the 'Mary' to travel back and forth to the States! I was rather pleased to see that the owners of the hotel have done well to try and preserve as many of the original fittings as possible in the staterooms and the one I had too! I loved the hot, cold and sea water options in the baths!

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 12, 2010, 04:11:53 PM
That poor old Queen Mary in Long Beach ?  I have been there several times over the years but never saw the Windsor suite.  The place was pretty much a mess at the time, I do not think the new owners knew  quite what to do with it. My partner & I   have a crossing on the QM2, however, 2 years ago. I could see how  they   preferred that to flight travel. I hated the dress up though.  I feel odd in a tuxedo!
 '
 Yes, I am rather outspoken on the  Duke. but this thread is a passing fancy, so to say.  Other than Wallis'  jewels and  dresses,  it does not get much attention, it seems.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 12, 2010, 04:21:48 PM
I know what you mean about the disorder and question marks about the Queen Mary....but the staterooms and First Class dinning Saloon are amazingly intact! Didn't bother with all that paranormal tour guff though!

 As to 'dress up' every evening today aboard QM2......imagine in David and Wallis' day it was 7 days a week, 52 weeks of the year, decade after decade! Times are very different now! Maybe some things are better now, or at least more practical in some ways! I would go spare having to change for dinner every night! Jewels and all!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 12, 2010, 07:45:32 PM
I don't think Wallis was like that at all. She was pure curtesey per se to the Royal Family. Most of the British Royal Family even the members of parliment then expressed their condolenses to her. They even welcome her to stay in Britian if she so wished. That was a far cry from the press at the time of the abdication. It was the Royal Family's treatment of her that looks petty. Wallis showed them that she had class and do need their crumbs of reconization. She said of the possibility of her finally getting HRH. "I don't need it, if it was during David's life time it would have meant something, but now it is finished."
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: CountessKate on February 13, 2010, 01:23:46 PM
According to Sir Harold Nicholson, the Duke referred in conversation to "Her (gasp) Royal (shudder) Highness (and not one eye dared meet the other)" so he had obviously decided to ignore the fact she didn't actually have the HRH style.  The frisson Nicholson described seems to indicate it genuinely meant something to people at the time - that she wasn't entitled to it, and that the Duke was ignoring that fact.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 13, 2010, 01:42:21 PM
I think the people were tired of the long exile that was strapped on the old and sick couple. It was then the RF began making overtures to the Windsors in France. As for the HRH, after the death of the Duke she never talked about it again. Surprisingly one of the most attentive towards Wallis was the Queen Mum ("Cookie" to Wallis). She guided her disoriented rival through the long furneral service and spoke to her for a while. She was heard to say "I know how you feel. I have been through that myself." Her many acts of consideration (sending of flowers and offer to visit Wallis in France) later were meaningful ways of reconciliation. That I am impressed.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 13, 2010, 01:45:44 PM
Didn't Wallis  keep referring to the Duke as "the King"  long after the abdication, or am I thinking of Magda and Carol II ? I know she expected royal treatment, whether or not she behaved like one or was entitled to it. Still, I do not mind her,  like I said, she had style- her own which  complimented her meagre  physical assests,  and had the money to do it. David  could deny her nothing. Talk about besotted.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 13, 2010, 01:52:31 PM
Why would they want to leave Paris? They were quite comfotable, their friends were there, they could afford excellent medical care. And, the British people had long forgotten them.  They had passed their shelf life  in England. In  France, they were stiill "high society".
 Wallis' end was quite sad though, I felt sorry for her at that point.
 All the riches still turns one into dust, doies it not?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 13, 2010, 01:56:48 PM
I think that was Karol's Magda ! Interestingly Wallis was more of a free spirit than Edward. Imagine her going from Balitimore to California to Beijing ! She was realist and enjoyed a good run with Edward. When the situation became too much, she did genuinely offer to give up the King and leave. She was even prepared to stop the divorce to Ernst. She felt trapped and obligated when Edward gave up his throne for her. It was a daunting aspect to live up to this grand passion.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 13, 2010, 02:00:11 PM
I don't think the British people ever forgotten about them. The couple were greeted with cheers and warm smiles when they visit Britian from time to time. They were the romantic couple who defied society and establishment. The late 50's and 60's were all for that if you remember.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 13, 2010, 02:03:29 PM
According to James Lee Milnes The Queen was seen to actually cry during the internment of Wallis' coffin at Frogmore! If this is true I think it reveals a rather interesting emotional aspect to the whole thing! If it had been QEQM who had been crying 'crocodile' would have come to mind or that perhaps she had got a speck of earth in her eye and was dabbing at it with a hankie!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 13, 2010, 02:12:47 PM
The Windsors were just a footnote in  history, in Britain. I do not know where you got the cheering crowds from,  but that  was a fantasy. They were never "exiled" they just chose to live  in luxury in France.  David/Edward was discredited, rightly or wrongly for his   support for Hitler- that stayed with him. And Wallis was simply disliked and an American adventuress. Also, rightly or wrongly. But she made the best of it, lived the good, if vacuous life.
 As an aside, I have made her supposedly famous "Baltimore Fried Chicken" on several occasions, and it  is pretty good, better than KFC any day!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 13, 2010, 02:23:01 PM
I very much doubt that, Margot. The Queen never shows any emotion and she was not at all close to the Windsors. Cookie,  yep, if she had any feelings, I can imagine her weeping a bit- but she didn't.
 And, who is James lee Milnes? I have 15 books on the Windsors and he is not one of them. If I am missing something, I would like to add it to the library.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: CountessKate on February 13, 2010, 03:03:08 PM
James Lees-Milne was a very well-known diarist and biographer (not of the Windsors) and his biography by Michael Bloch (who himself is a biographer of the Windsors) has just come out.  I believe the reference to the Queen appearing to shed tears at the funeral of the Duke of Windsor would have been in his diaries, though I can't recall if he was actually there or whether he was just reporting it.  I seem to recall he had a few social encounters with the Windsors via Emerald Cunard though he was by no means a socialite/courtier - his wife Alvide had more glamorous connections, but he wasn't really a Chips Channon.  Bloch's website on him is here: http://www.jamesleesmilne.com/index.html
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 13, 2010, 03:09:01 PM
Thank you, Countess Kate.  He comes to mind now, but just not in the Windsor  context.  I probably have something by him here, but it is not prominent on the shelves.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 13, 2010, 03:18:31 PM
I think you got it wrong Robert. The Windsors were exiled immediately after their wedding. When he wanted to come back, The King and the prime minister did not permit them to come back (even for the war effort). That is history not fantasy. The tax thing did not come up as an issue until later.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 13, 2010, 03:23:30 PM
I don't think the Queen cried at the furneral (she was not close to her uncle at all). She did cried when the Britiannia was chucked. Princess Margaret & Princess Michael of Kent seemed to be nicer to the Old Duchess than the Queen. Another moving thing was that Wallis, Edward & Marina did reconciled later in life. She invited them for lunch after the unveiling of the plack of Queen Mary. Georgie Kent was the Duke's favourite brother.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 13, 2010, 03:54:54 PM
 Eric. they were  only asked to stay away for a while.  They made several return visits, including the infamous jewelry robbery, which is still suspect. NO British citizen can be exiled. I think  David was asked to leave  to avoid contention at that time. It was a mutual agreement and he cashed out.  After all, there can only be one king at a time in modern Britain.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 13, 2010, 04:41:24 PM
"Asked" is quite a nice word to use, command is more like it. The Duke was allowed to visit not to stay in Britian. He had wished to retain Fort Belvedere and come back to live as aRoyal Duke like his brothers. But the government knew how popular he was and vetoed the idea. Lets say that he was not "invited" to stay in his homeland. I believe the new King and government was not overly friendly towards the Windsors. They want them (stark reminders of the abdication crisis) to leave indefinitely so that they can wipe the slate clean. It was then Edward (like Diana years later) became a loose canon. I agree that the Duke is no saint, but the realities of life after the abdication (cut off from family & country) did brought out the worst in him. When he was POW, he was very generous, but afterwards he became very petty in money matters.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 13, 2010, 09:24:59 PM
Thank you, Countess Kate.  He comes to mind now, but just not in the Windsor  context.  I probably have something by him here, but it is not prominent on the shelves.

He's been the source of some other stories--some given wide credence even though he's the only source and his info second or third hand at that--that are widely credited in books on the royals. One such, not to divert topic, was on GV's supposed comments about homosexuals shooting themselves. That's been widely quoted in books but when one tracks down the source, it's Milne's diary and he records it as hearsay. The comment, amongst other things, seemed wildly naive for someone who was in the British Navy for many years and was very close to both George of Greece and his Uncle Waldemar. Anyone, as I said, that's off topic but I use it as an example where a quote that he's the sole source for (ie the Queen crying at the funeral) might not be the most credit-worthy.

The Queen maybe does shed more tears than is credited, though I do doubt about this story. Queen Mary, who she resembles in temperament, did cry at the funeral of her brother Francis but that was a much closer relationship.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on February 14, 2010, 04:24:35 AM
I Wallis showed them that she had class and do need their crumbs of reconization.

I really don't think Wallis and class go together. She was rather vulgar. Certain friends where disgusted how she treated the Duke in public, at time she could really humiliate him. Wallis loved the prospect of a title and status which is why she went after him in the first place!!  You say she "did genuinely offer to give up the King and leave" where do you get that from? Charles Higham branded her "compulsively ambitious" !!

I think if she had "class" she would not have been rude about both Queen Mary & Elizabeth and shown respect.  Remember her behaviour at the ball to celebrate Princess Marina's engagement, she wore outre violet apparently, trying to upstage the prospective bride - very crass!!

I don't think the Queen mother had any interests in a "reconciliation" why would she? The Queen Mother was hardly interested in her and and she always blamed them for the premature death of George VI. At the funeral i think she was just offering a sympathetic hand, she did have a very kind side after all. Though she did send flowers with a card, "In Friendship, Elizabeth".

I think Wallis And Edward made a perfect couple as they where both very selfish and appear greedy!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on February 14, 2010, 04:26:28 AM
The Queen is of course not known for showing her emotions in public. I can only think of three occasions that she has. The decomissioning of the royal yacht (very sad), the memorial service to the victims of Sept. 11 & at the Queen Mothers funeral.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 14, 2010, 10:01:55 AM
Will miracles never cease? I actually agree with Eddie UK! I said Wallis had  "style" not class, and she was rather vulgar She was certainly ambitious but had to settle for her lot once married to the Duke. She had the resources to  attain the very best in couture to make her otherwise homely features  look   good. Plus those jewels! Although her donation  of the proceeds from their sale to AIDS research was admirable,  I wonder if that was her initiative or Madame  Blum...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on February 14, 2010, 10:24:24 AM
'The Windsors were exiled immediately after their wedding. When he wanted to come back, The King and the prime minister did not permit them to come back (even for the war effort). That is history not fantasy. The tax thing did not come up as an issue until later.'

That the Windsors were required to stay out of the country is really not surprising (in fact, Edward left immediately after abdicating). A living ex-king is always going to be an embarrassment and potential threat to his successor (except in places like Holland, where monarchs routinely  abdicate in order to retire). Edward had been a popular figure before abdicating, and George VI was in a very awkward position, needing to establish himself and his style of kingship. There is also the recent Romanian precedent whereby Carol II renounced his rights, Michael became king, then Carol returned and took over! The only other two contemporary ex-kings I can think of are Ferdinand of Bulgaria and Constantine I of Greece, both of whom abdicated  in favour of their sons and went into exile (constantine did so twice). Constantine died within months of his second exile, but Ferdinand lived a comfortable life in Coburg for 30 years (did he ever visit Bulgaria during Boris's reign?)

Perhaps if the Duke and Duchess had been prepared to stay out of the limelight, they might have been allowed back eventually, but it seems they were not. And they didn't exactly inspire confidence in their discretion and good judgement either in the late 1930s or during the war.

I am reminded of the current Duchess of York expecting the royal family to welcome her into their midst after all the embarrssment she has caused (reports in the British press this weekend that she is seriously in debt once again).
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Vecchiolarry on February 14, 2010, 11:45:13 AM
Hi,

I don't know if this is "Off Topic" or not but:
Did David and Wallis ever entertain or 'hobnob' with cousin Carol and Magda?
Now, there's a fearsome foursome!!!
Would they like each other or compete?
How would the two adventuresses appear to 'upstage' each other?

Oh I can see a movie script about this!!

But seriously, did they ever know each other?
Weren't they all together or in close proximity in Portugal at one time?

Larry
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 14, 2010, 02:12:41 PM
It is a just a guess on my part, but I would not be at all surprised if they did   know each other socially, at least. Portugal was the home of several  ex patria royals and most of them were "party people".
  Plus, I know I am being pedantic, but "exile" is not  proper at all. That  means a permanent ban from the country. That was  definitely not the case with the Duke of Windsor.  It was indeed best for all concerned the he leave the country Considering his actions after leaving,  it makes perfect sense. As I said before,  one cannot "exile" a British citizen, or  "subject" as the term was then. And, after all, he  was a subject after his abdication...to his brother, GVI.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 14, 2010, 02:32:35 PM
If you don't like exile, maybe expelled or banned would be a better word. Yes, he was asked to leave so that he would not overshadow his brother. Even in the midst of war, the Windsors were not permitted to come back. After many options, they were shipped off to the Bahamas to be "out of harms way". So one cannot say that he was allowed to come back to Britian when he was NOT permitted to come. That is a historical fact.

Yes. Even I was surprised to read that The Queen Mum did went out of her way to be nice to Wallis after Edward's death. It seems she had softened towards her old rival and wanted to chose the chapter on the abdication. It was Wallis who lost the heart for it especially her health has deterioated. She only managed to meet Princess Margaret & The Kents for short period of times.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 14, 2010, 02:45:41 PM
 As  he, the Duke, traveled on a diplomatic passport, he was definitely not exiled. Very  few, if any abdicated sovereigns  remain in their  [former] realm,  most leaving with   generous compensation, earned otherwise.
 BTW, Charles visited them did he not?   He was also in regular contact with his mother & brother, by telephone I  suppose,  probably calling them reverse charges!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 14, 2010, 02:52:04 PM
Yes. But BANNED from living in Britian again. That is quite a punishment not to be allowed to live in your homeland again. King Leopold III of Belgium and Queen Wilhelmina of Holland both abdicated but both were allowed to live in their homeland. What do you say about that ? Charles never seen his uncle until years later.The Duke kept up comminication with his mother through letters and sporatic meetings. Another family member who remain close was the Princess Royal (Mary).
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 14, 2010, 04:08:19 PM
Queen Willamina  retired with full honours, as did Juliana. Leopold III abdicated at the will of the people. [a plebiscite as I recall] Edward  was a totally different case. Closer to Carol II of Romania, pressure over his personal and political issues.
 And he was not exactly  "banned" from returning to the UK, He was quite comfy in France. They [the Windsors] would never have had the social life they had  there.
 Wallis thought the country dull and uninspiring- which I obviously disagree with, as often as I go back,  and Edaward/David  felt shunned by society.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 14, 2010, 04:36:09 PM
He was banned from the country. At least he was not allowed to live there. This has been the case for many years. Edward was not comfy in the begining and had to wrung a financial consideration from his brother, King George VI. It was almost like we pay you not to come back. No wonder he felt cold shouldered by the ruling class. All those who was close to him were given the cold shoulder including Emerald Cunnard. Wallis would have returned to England at the drop of a hat had her husband was allowed back.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 14, 2010, 04:51:25 PM
He was not banned, Eric, he was asked to stay away for a while,  to avoid contention. This was quite understandable. The war, of course intervened and they had [the Windsors]   loved their life in France. Who would not?  Posh houses,  nice income, most of it comp't,  and I take it English is not your first language because he did "wrung" anything, he sold Sandringham and Balmoral   to   his brother.  Why they wanted those piles is beyond me, but, so be it.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 14, 2010, 05:43:29 PM
A while seems like a month or a year. You are talkining about years. They were "persona non gratas" in the Royal Family. To be cut off from one's roots was a very big price to pay for one's happiness. The House in Paris was filled with momentoes from his life before the abdication. The Duchess was a gypsy (Baltimore, Beijing, London), so that did not bother her too much. Edward was raised on tradition, so the exile or forced living aboard hit him very hard. He loved his life togather with Wallis, but he also missed England. I don't think you understand tradition, pomp and circumstances (which is the trappings of royalty), so what Edward lost you cannot comprehend. I lived in a British Colony and went to a British school so I understand it much better than you. I take it that you are American. Money is not everything.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 14, 2010, 06:16:50 PM
I am lost for words! If 'tradition' was so important to Edward VIII I dare say he may have thought twice about abdicating wouldn't he?

Eric your arrogance leaves me cringing! How dare you use this forum to claim a better understanding of tradition, pomp and circumstances than another poster! I can not believe your audacity!

I hardly think living in a British Colony like Hong Kong or attending a British School gives you the right to claim to be able to comprehend what 'Edward lost.' Really Eric! I do wish you would stop writing such shallow nonsense! If you're not adding pointless inane polluting one liner such as 'Breathtaking,'... 'Indeed. I agree' and 'Very Elegant. Thank you'  type posts you come out with the above sort of post which is utterly contemptible, disgracefully rude and revoltingly conceited! If you have nothing of any serious or constructive kind to add to the threads why don't you just be quiet instead of posting ceaseless rubbish! By the way, you do realize that no matter how many posts you manage to send you will never graduate any further than Velikye Knyaz?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 14, 2010, 06:40:11 PM
Quite a lot of words from a newbie.

I don't think I am arrogant at all. I think it is so easy to think that money solves everything. People do not understand what he had lost when he abdicated. If this thread's sole purpose is to trash the Duke & the Duchess I will stay silent as I do not share this view at all. They were not perfect, flawed in their own way. However they were victims of circumstances as well. I read enough biographies about them to know there is two sides to every story. Many authors I read agreed that the HRH thing is quite petty and not culculated to improve relations between the Windsors and the Royal Family. The invitation to the Queen Mary memorial plack was the ice breaker. There after there were overtures from both sides to bury the hatchet. However it was the Queen Mother who made the best effort emotionally to be helpful to Wallis. She was attentive to her during the furneral and even prepared to visit her in Paris. It was cancelled at the last moment by the Duchess. She continue to reach out and the final note was through flowers "In Friendship, Elizabeth". What better way to end a feud than that. The Queen Mum even attended the furneral ceremony in person (Interestingly Princess Diana also did).
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 14, 2010, 07:18:54 PM
I can't say I really blame the British royals for not wanting the Windsors in England, at least in the beginning for a variety of reasons. The family was personally appalled by the act, the public was reeling as the press had remained silent up until almost the last minute, it was felt that the new king needed space to establish his identity , that it would be very awkward to have 2 living Kings in the country at the same time and what on Earth would the former King's role eventually be. It was unprecedented in modern British history, or modern royal history. It would up going well in the Neterlands but that was later and under very different circumstances. I think there were great and legitimate fears about the stability of the monarchy, no matter how popular it had been. It modern times, it has basically existed upon the good will of the populace and popularity can be a fickle thing. Edward's parents were aware of this and did their utmost to keep the popularity going, they never coasted or assumed that it was something that was to be taken for granted. Even today, witness the effects of Charles's relationship with Camilla and the immense harm caused, despite the Queen's popularity and dutifulness over decades of service. With thrones still relatively precarious in 1936 (the Spanish monarchy having been tossed over just a few years prior) I can only imagine what was going through everyone's mind. PM Baldwin's informed the King that  "... the Queen becomes the Queen of the country. Therefore in the choice of a Queen the voice of the people must be heard."

Edward had also undercut himself from some of the pillars of potential support. While George and Mary had made inroads towards making the monarchy more accessible, being very visible and amongst the people, dealing well with the Labour governments and so on, there was no doubt they were traditionalists to the core, just ones who recognized the need to change in order to survive. It was viewed that Edward would prefer sweeping change and demonstrated a disdain and contempt for traditional notions--though he might not have been as radical as feared since he publicly referred to left-wing politicians as 'cranks'. Some ministers felt he would try to meddle in politics and Ramsey MacDonald wrote that "These escapades should be limited. They are an invasion into the field of politics & should be watched constitutionally." He also made speeches that ran counter to governmental positions and butted heads with his ministers over the Italy/Ethiopia situation, even refusing to receive deposed Emperor Selassie. Many influential members of society, the Church and the political class also felt his set an extremely bad moral standard for the public. The role as Defender of the Faith and marrying a twice divorced woman undermined him with the Church--this  issue was still potent in the case of Charles 60 years later. Wallis's first divorce wasn't recognized by the Church of England and while, if challenged, this might have annulled her marriage to Ernest Simpson, the same problem would've existed with the King. He showed tone-deafness with his subjects in Scotland following his refusal to open a new wing of Aberdeen Royal Infirmary, claiming he could not do so because he was in mourning for his father. On the day after the opening he was pictured in the newspapers cavorting on holiday with Wallis. All this in addition to what the government feared about Wallis--both true and untrue--especially regarding any German sympathies. Many reports were given credence at the time, however, so the thought that this woman (whatever the rest of her faults) could become consort would have been frightening to many in power and extremely damaging.

On 13 November 1936, the King's private secretary, Alec Hardinge, wrote to the King warning him that: "The silence in the British Press on the subject of Your Majesty's friendship with Mrs Simpson is not going to be maintained ... Judging by the letters from British subjects living in foreign countries where the Press has been outspoken, the effect will be calamitous." Media silence was maintained until a Bishop seemed to make reference to it on 1 Dec, stating that the King needed to be more aware of his need for divine grace. After that, bets were off and Wallis fled the country by the 3rd. I once bought an old scrapbook on ebay that was pretty much devoted to the situation and the difference in coverage was remarkable. The American press wasn't shy at all about comments or photographs. It's remarkable to think how much silence could be maintained in Britain when one is living in today's 24 hrs, instant news coverage. Those photos would have hit TMZ and video would have been splashed all over YouTube within hours nowadays.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 14, 2010, 07:29:11 PM
Quite a lot of words from a newbie.



How dare you use such a patronizing tone Eric! You will find such a remark may well offend many members of the forum, especially Newbies!

I hope (in vain no doubt) you get banned for being so rude and insinuating your obvious contempt for posters of Newbie status so blatantly!

On the issue of Wallis. Does anyone know what piece Princess Michael inherited/received? I would love to know more about these pieces if any one would be kind enough to help!

By the way Thanks so much for your really interesting post Ella....very much appreciated!

 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 14, 2010, 08:38:42 PM
Glad you liked it Margot. : )

On the subject of pieces Princess Michael inherited, I don't know if any of that info is listed on the Windsor jewel threads or a search of the Duke & Duchess of Windsor threads? I know that the Duchess's jewelry has been discussed quite a bit in the past and the issue of the Kents has come up in them.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 14, 2010, 08:44:00 PM
Cheers Ella...I will have a rootle!

Apropos of my offended sensibilities pertaining to Eric's evident contempt for Newbies I would like to suggest that if the powers that be do not wish to ban him because of his outright contempt for Newbies, then maybe he should be given his very own thread. Something along the lines of 'The Lowe Down' perhaps...that way he will not have to associate with 'riff raff' like me and countless other Newbies!

 Better still he could be 'confined' to his very own thread and posters could visit him at leisure! Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated and I am sure Eric would love to have his very own thread too!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 14, 2010, 09:00:11 PM
Any actions such as these would have to be undertaken by the FA. No mods have the power to ban anyone--otherwise we'd probably be drunk on power!  ;) So any issue that any poster has with another member, that cannot be resolved, needs to be taken to him.

I would just recommend to all posters that we remember that the FA doesn't lay down a lot of rules for governing the site but chief amongst them is to respect others and to try and conduct our disagreements in a civil manner. No one ever wants to see anyone banned--that's always the FA's last choice.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Vecchiolarry on February 14, 2010, 10:50:09 PM
Hello,

Eric, you may be surprised to learn that "Margot" is not quite the "Newbie" that you perceive her to be.
And also, that she knows quite a lot about the various royals around the world.

Further, you contemptably surmise by your tone that 'Newbies' know nothing or next to nothing...
I was once a 'Newbie' here, and I can tell you I know quite a good deal about royals - and first hand too about some of them.
I do not know everything;  but what I do know, I do know and what I don't know, I ask politely and hope to be informed.

Most everyone on here is informed about something and intelligent and polite enough to share it.  And, this is an information board and a polite society.
personally, I have learned a great deal over the months from "Margot" about a variety of different subjects;  and she is quite knowledgeable...

If you were a gentleman, then you would apologize to "Margot" and all 'Newbies' for such a salacious remark presuming her and their "stupidity"...

Larry
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Vecchiolarry on February 14, 2010, 10:59:16 PM
Hello Again,

Also & furthermore, I have met Robert Hall and can tell you that he know what "tradition" is and means.
And, he knows far more about royalty than I will ever know and what he says & writes are pretty much a 'given' as to fact.

I wouldn't want to be sparing with him, if I were you, Eric...

Larry
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Vecchiolarry on February 14, 2010, 11:02:18 PM
And, Hello Yet Again,

As far as I'm concerned "The Windsors" (Duke & Duchess of) were just a bad comedy act..
The clown makeup and costumes were classy but the act was 'crap fest' and atrocious...

The only class act in the whole "fam damnly" is The Queen and for the most part, The Queen Mother...

Larry
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 15, 2010, 12:40:44 AM
Eric, I am adding to the chorus here. I am offended as well. I went to British schools,  had British as as well as French teachers and have  spent the past 30+ years going back and forth from the US and  the UK And you seem to consider me a tourist? I  heave interest i in  2 properties in England. . I dare say you are  prejudiced and disrespectful of other posters.  You owe all of of us an apology, to say the least. And, your inane postings, as has been noted, are indeed annoying. You might try looking at yourself.
 However, back to the Windsors-  I have never been all that interested in them, but have read all these books  AND know [or knew] people who  were also personally involved, one way or the other with them. My view is based on  that reading and the experience of others, some of whom you might be surprised at.
 I still maintain   Edward was NOT exiled,  but simply asked to stay away, is that so hard to understand?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on February 15, 2010, 03:42:21 AM
I am not offended on my own behalf, but on Margot's behalf. Margot is currently a 'newbie' for purely technical reasons, and even if that were not the case, her contributions are always interesting and based on knowledge. In any event, most people who join the forum do so because of a serious interest in the subject and many years of reading about royalty.

As to 'class acts', can I add Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester to the list. There was a dignified, hard-working lady who was still doing the odd royal duty when nearly 100 (receiving senior officers from her regiments), and never caused a moment's controversy. Her surviving son and daughter-in-law are working away quietly too, and her grandchildren seem to be sensible young people who get on with their lives out of the public eye.

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 15, 2010, 11:21:18 AM
I never found 'newbies' to be any more or less intelligent contributors than any other postings simply due to their status. After all, a royal author such as Charlotte Zeepvat, should she join the Forum, would automatically be a 'newbie' simply because she's new, yet I don't think her contributions would be discounted. Similarly, posters can be around forever and amass quite an elevated status and yet not contribute anything meaningful--and this isn't aimed at any poster in particular. We were ALL 'newbies' once. And I used to look back at some of my own early posts and just feel like 'yikes!'.  :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Rani on February 15, 2010, 04:56:17 PM
(http://i50.tinypic.com/33tt3kz.jpg)
   
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Rani on February 15, 2010, 05:04:35 PM
(http://i49.tinypic.com/evbf4o.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 15, 2010, 05:48:11 PM
Thank you Larry.  I agree,  they were sort of a "clown act"  But, considering they had nothing to do, I suppose it was understandable, in a way. Instead of  working for nonprofits,, they spent their time shopping, nightclubs, socialising and traveling- first class. I did like Wallis' style, she knew how to work herself into something  she would not  likely be perceived as, but Edaward/David, what a useless waste of time, IMO. He never expressed any desire to return to live in England,  he took everything he wanted with him!  That was why the Paris house had so many of his things-  AND the Nazis protected it while looting almost everyone else.
 Now, Wallis' jewels....I think  Princess Michael  has a couple of things of hers. I do not really know if she actually inheretied  them of bought them in the auction. I have that catalogue,  but  there is no list  of who got what. Elizabeth Taylor   has or had the famous leopard, if I am not mistaken, but she has been selling off her collection to benefit her AIDS Foundation. So who knows where that is ? I think most probably ended up in Middle Eastern  royal [or otherwise] families. But those jewels are  a bit vulgar indeed  for the Queen.
 Al Fayed owns the Paris house, last I heard, but no one lives there except caretakers. As for their other assets, I do not think they had that much left.  Everything was sold, one way or the other, wasn't it? They really have not much of a physical legacy, IMO.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 15, 2010, 06:11:04 PM
In dealing with the legacy. One must not forget the things & papers that the Duchess gave back or those taken by Mountbatten back to England. They are now locked up in the archievs in Windor Castle.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 15, 2010, 06:26:38 PM
Gosh Robert what a pertinent and rather haunting point you have made about Wallis and David's lack of a tangible legacy!

I also think that Wallis' jewels were a tad vulgar and some were downright hideous IMHO as well, I particularly loathed those bibs she had a thing about in the 50s! They were like breast plates! But it does seems incredibly hollow that ones jewels are about all that is left as a legacy!

I also find it really interesting that over the last twenty years there seems to have been a perceptible shift in opinions toward Wallis! I guess this may be due to the resources that have begun to trickle out so to speak! In the old days Wallis seems to have been vilified in a Disney-esque fashion as a cross between Cruela de Vil, Maleficent (The evil fairy in Sleeping Beauty) Medusa (The Rescuers) and the Queen (Snow White).....amazing how many female baddies there are in Disney films! Anyway as to Wallis....she was popularly portrayed as a cut and dry gold digging, serial adulteress femme fatale but it is David who is now more commonly thought of as the real villain of the piece so to speak!

I think personally Wallis seems to have been very sensible! Her position must have been a daunting one! But it seems to me that David caused endless problems with his grumbling and whining about money! He never seems to have made any sort of an effort to do anything useful with himself! I always wondered why David didn't get involved in international charity work of some kind! He always professed to care about the working classes and yet he never seems to have considered joining or encouraging charitable causes! With his name he could have done some good....but it appears he was just too selfish and too self absorbed and preferred to spend the money he did have (when he wasn't moaning about being so poor and worrying about keeping the wolf from the door) on jewels for Wallis, traveling first class to and from America where they stayed at the expense of friends or at very expensive hotels and keeping himself occupied with his golf swing by day and at night clubs by night!

The Windsors lead the most mind numbingly dull and vacuous lives! It is a shame that he never made an effort to do something worthy! I tend to think that Wallis could do little because of her black name so to speak, but David could and should have done something to at least try and rehabilitate his name and restore some degree of honour to his tarnished reputation! What makes it even more galling to me is is that he does not even appear to have considered trying and all one ever seems to here about is how aggrieved and wronged he felt! Goodness me....the more I hear about David's weak will and his moaning self pity the more I feel relieved that he did abdicate as IMHO he would have probably proved a dreadful monarch anyway!

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 15, 2010, 06:30:06 PM
Indeed Edward VIII was a total loser and we should be glad that vulgar Wallis took him away ! The Queen Mother believe in that too. She & her husband were fated to be King & Queen. They were just Britian need at that point.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 15, 2010, 06:41:40 PM
I would like to suggest the you take the time to reads Posts # 864,866,867,868,869,870,871,872,873 Eric!

As you have just posted another comment I think it really does reveal just how much contempt you have for not only myself but also for others here!!

I really do look forward to your response but then again, maybe you will just ignore this post and not feel obliged to stoop so low as to deign to reply! Thus revealing yet another example of your contempt towards others!

As for David's position! I remember hearing somewhere that he used to grumble that he was side lined and not given a job to do! Which makes me wonder whether charitable causes were perhaps frightened off the idea of inviting him to join them? Just a musing!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Beautiful B.C on February 15, 2010, 06:53:01 PM
Rani,

Thank you for posting the pictures of the Windsor Princes and Edward alone. I do so enjoy the pictures when posted. If you have more please post!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 15, 2010, 07:15:00 PM
I think Margot if you have something to say about me you can email to me privately. I am really flattered that I am important enough for your attention. Please let this thread to be about the Windsors (pro or against). Thank you.  :)

Sorry to be off topic. Rani does posted some interesting photos. I do appreciate his sharing them with us all.

Prince Edward did became important early in his life because of his position (Prince of Wales) and good looks. She later became known as a ladies man. I remember the BBC Production of "Edward VIII and Mrs. Simpson" (Which Cynthia Harris & Robert Fox took the lead roles). The program started with the song "I dance with a man who dance with a girl who dance with the Prince of Wales." I wonder who sang that song ?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 15, 2010, 07:28:15 PM
The song was written in 1927 by Herbert Farjeon and the girl that inspired the song was Edna Deane, a ballroom dancing champion.

:I've danced with a man, who's danced with a girl, who's danced with the Prince of Wales.

:It was simply grand, he said "Topping band" and she said "Delightful, Sir"

:Glory, Glory, Alleluia! I'm the luckiest of females

:For I've danced with a man, who's danced with a girl, who's danced with the Prince of Wales.


:My word I've had a party, my word I've had a spree

:Believe me or believe me not, it's all the same to me!

:I'm wild with exultation, I'm dizzy with success

:For I've danced with a man, I've danced with a man-

:Who

:Well, you'll never guess


:I've danced with a man, who's danced with a girl, who's danced with the Prince of Wales.

:I'm crazy with excitement, completely off the rails

:And when he said to me what she said to him -the Prince remarked to her

:It was simply grand, he said "Topping band" and she said "Delightful, Sir"

:Glory, Glory, Alleluia! I'm the luckiest of females;

:For I've danced with a man, who's danced with a girl, who's danced with the Prince of Wales.

You can find the song over the credits of Edward & Mrs Simpson here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjogyfx-mFk

I found no info on imdb.com on who sang the song for the production or whether they grabbed an old recording.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 15, 2010, 07:40:13 PM
 The Windsor  archives are  not "locked up". They are available to  recognised authors and researchers.  However from the bits  i  have seen, they are  fairly useless. As far as I know, the Duchess left nothing except "thank you notes".  She was not what we might call  a  prolific writer. And the Duke----- well , not the brightest  light on  the xmas tree, was he?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Emperor of the Dominions on February 15, 2010, 08:49:42 PM
I am lost for words! If 'tradition' was so important to Edward VIII I dare say he may have thought twice about abdicating wouldn't he?

Eric your arrogance leaves me cringing! How dare you use this forum to claim a better understanding of tradition, pomp and circumstances than another poster! I can not believe your audacity!

I hardly think living in a British Colony like Hong Kong or attending a British School gives you the right to claim to be able to comprehend what 'Edward lost.' Really Eric! I do wish you would stop writing such shallow nonsense! If you're not adding pointless inane polluting one liner such as 'Breathtaking,'... 'Indeed. I agree' and 'Very Elegant. Thank you'  type posts you come out with the above sort of post which is utterly contemptible, disgracefully rude and revoltingly conceited! If you have nothing of any serious or constructive kind to add to the threads why don't you just be quiet instead of posting ceaseless rubbish! By the way, you do realize that no matter how many posts you manage to send you will never graduate any further than Velikye Knyaz?
I can stay silent no longer and must add my support to Margot's analysis of Mr Lowe and his remarks. I am also counted a 'Newbie', although i've been a member since 2006 and have made 87 posts. Unlike Mr Lowe I am not a regular poster, as I refrain from adding benal comments such as 'I agree' or 'how interesting' etc. I 'read' posts, and for the most part find them eminentley interesting and informative. Hence I am still a 'newbie' and not a 'Velikye Knyaz'. Before anyone wishes to question my nationality, I am happy to confirm that I am British, born in London, where I remain.
I can remember being complimentary on the consistency of the present Queen's 'Italianesque' hair-style, to be informed by Mr Lowe that it was as a result of a "hair piece she always wore!". Of course, when questioned more closely Mr Lowe was unable to reference this 'fact' and remained quiet for a few posts; completely ignoring other posters requests for evidence of this 'fact'. After the 'heat' had died down, he switched subjects and started asserting 'facts' about some artwork he couldn't reference either!
I for one feel that this has gone for far too long, and Mr Lowe should either be banned or have his posts 'reviewed' before they appear. He detracts from the excellent posts of the Grandduchessella and those like her, who make this site and forum a pleasureable and informative destination.
So Mr Lowe, perhaps like 'the Windsors', you should be banished from the realm! OUT! OUT! OUT! I say - Be GONE!!!!

R.I.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 15, 2010, 09:10:09 PM
Gosh Emperor.....I wouldn't like to tread on your tail! Goodness it's the quiet ones that one has to watch out for! Anyway thank you so much for your beautifully worded post!

I think we had better get back 'on topic' otherwise we may get reprimanded. Just to be 'open' though, I have pm'd Eric Lowe as he suggested!

Now then where were we....oh yes I remember the Windsors......

I read somewhere but can not for the life of me remember where, that it was believed that Wallis gave or willed pieces of jewelry to the Duke and Duchess of Kent and Princess Alexandra as well as Prince and Princess Michael! Does anyone know if this was just a rumour or a fact!  
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 15, 2010, 09:49:27 PM
At the risk of adding just a 'thank you', I still must do so and thank Emperor of the Dominions for his kind words. It is the kindness of people on this Forum like himself and so many others that I've 'met' over the years that have made this Forum such a joy to come to day after day for so many years. So thank you very much. : )

As to Margot's query about the Windsor jewels and Princess Michael, I found this:

From Vanity Fair: "Tomorrow, Christie's in London (the King Street location, not the South Kensington one) will hold a much publicized auction that includes jewelry belonging to Princess Michael of Kent. Our favorite lot is a gorgeous pair of emerald-adorned Cartier earrings in the shape of growling leopards, which were gifted in 1978 to the Princess by the Duchess of Windsor on the occasion of the Princess's wedding. They are estimated at more than $80,000."

theroyalforums.com notes  Princess Michael wearing the "Cartier "Cherries" brooch given to her by the Duchess of Windsor as a wedding gift whilst the Princess honeymooned in Paris with her husband in July 1978.The brooch compromises numerous cabochon rubies; uncut emeralds and brilliant diamonds and was worn by the Duchess of Windsor in the 1950's and 60's as a pendant on a large gold chain. Princess Michael recieved other pieces from the Duchess on the same visit including huge cabochon emerald earrings (below) due to the close relationship Prince Michael established with the Windsors in the 1960's."

Greg King's book on Wallis notes that the hope that some pieces would be left to Charles was sabotaged by Lord Mountbatten's aggressiveness in campaigning for various pieces of jewelry and objects d'art had left Wallis bitter. “In these last years, Lord Mountbatten became a frequent – if not altogether welcome – visitor to the Windsor Villa in the Bois de Boulogne. Wallis had never particularly cared for him, and even David by now was angry at the way he seemed to inspect the house, examining papers and souvenirs. ‘Who are you going to leave that to?’ he would ask the Duke, pointing at some object. ‘I think that should go to Charles.’ ‘How dare he!’ David declared after one such visit. ‘He even tells me what he wants left to him.’” King notes that many Kents were left pieces--Princess Alexandra, the Duchess of Kent and Princess Michael.

King's book also notes Charles pre-visit attitude towards Wallis: "“When Prince Charles was asked about his great aunt the Duchess of Windsor – whom he had never met – he declared, ‘She’s a dreadful woman.’ He was asked why he said this. His chilling reply left no doubt about the source of his animosity: ‘I know because my grandmother says she was.’”"

Suzy Menkes notes that “Flattered and charmed by the attentions of the vibrant new Princess, the Duchess of Windsor gave to Marie-Christine [Princess Michael] some prized pieces of her jewellery as a wedding gift. This was, understandably, never made public, but caused a frisson within her circle.”  She also noted in an article that the jewels the Duchess of Windsor gave Princess Michael included: “a gold sunburst suite set with pearls and a pair of emerald panther earrings.” In “The Royal Jewels” there are two photos – one of the Duchess of Windsor in 1948 wearing a pair of distinctive panther earrings – designed by Cartier – consisting of two cabochon emeralds of 54.04 and 50.42 carats; the other picture is of Princess Michael of Kent wearing what appear to be the exact same earrings in 1985, the year before the Duchess of Windsor’s death. As the panther earrings were not among the Duchess’ jewels auctioned off in 1987 or 1997, it seems entirely plausible that the earrings Princess Michael has worn did indeed belong to the Duchess of Windsor. As it turned out, the Kent family fared well with the Duchess of Windsor as, evidently, Princess Alexandra of Kent and the Duke and Duchess of Kent also received gifts of jewelry from the Duchess. Suzy Menkes noted that this was probably due to an appeal by Lady Monckton who “promised the Duchess that she would escort her body to the royal mausoleum at Frogmore, on the Windsor estate. In return, she suggested a fair distribution of the jewels among the younger members of the royal family.” As far as is known, however, no other members of the royal family received any of the Duchess’ jewels by bequest, so perhaps her early friendly associations with Prince George, Duke of Kent, had played a role in her few select legacies."
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 15, 2010, 09:55:14 PM
Ella you are an absolute angel! Many many thanks

I forgot I have a picture of MC's cartier leopard earrings from the auction catalogue from last year! They failed to reach there reserve if my memory serves me right! I wonder if those earrings were from Wallis! The ones MC was trying to flog...I mean? They were not really that attractive IMHO! Also I think on the first page of this thread there is a photograph of the raspberry/strawberry fruity pendant thingy!?!

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 15, 2010, 10:00:01 PM
You're very welcome, Margot. Make sure to re-read the post as I added a bunch more information while you were typing your post.  ;D  You were just too quick for me.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 15, 2010, 10:42:42 PM
Thank you, GDElla.  I was not all sure about the jewels,  but sure thought Charles had visited the Duke, at least, towards the end of his life. I can see his animosity towards the Duchess, however.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Vecchiolarry on February 15, 2010, 11:43:39 PM
Dear Emperor of the Dominions,

I like you!!  I really like you...
You have summed up 'Mr. Lowe' very succinctly - he's a dolt...

He's also a post totaller, which means he likes to run up his number(s) on the board with inane drivell...

EotD - Please post more;  you will be kindly read and appreciated!!!

Larry
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on February 16, 2010, 01:38:55 AM
I second that Larry!! Remember when Eric implied that poor Thora was a lesbian with no friends and no tiara, which was of course disproved! And then Ducky was forced ino her fist marriage by QV etc etc. There have been many many other incidents such as this. So much that Eric comes out with really is nauseous to say the least.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on February 16, 2010, 03:28:26 AM
The best that can be said of Mr Lowe is that some of his postings can be quite amusing.

Back to the Duke of Windsor. Yes, he could have got involved in charitable work, both before and after his abdication. After the abdication, it might have had to be behind the scenes for a time, but he could have done it (and he was hardly short of money, which he could have used for something more constructive than decking the Duchess out with jewels). In fact, it was George VI who took a practical interest in the working classes. The Duke of York's camps might seem a bit quaint now, and were a fairly small-scale operation, but they were quite forward-thinking at the time.

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 16, 2010, 12:15:18 PM
First of all. I want to apologize to all who felt I was attacking them through the newbie comment. I was a newbi too, so I have no qurarel against the status. My disagreement is only with Margot. If any other people felt this comment had hurt them, I want to make sure that it was not intended.

Secondly why I would not appologize to Margot is because I felt he insulted my background, when I was trying to make a point about what I personally felt about the pomp and circumstances in Edward's situation. It is very personally and heart felt. I guess Margot has no idea how hurt that stung. I was the Queen's subject for more than 2 decades and proud of it. I would not post no more on this thread.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 16, 2010, 01:13:41 PM
"Back to the Duke of Windsor. Yes, he could have got involved in charitable work, both before and after his abdication. After the abdication, it might have had to be behind the scenes for a time, but he could have done it (and he was hardly short of money, which he could have used for something more constructive than decking the Duchess out with jewels). In fact, it was George VI who took a practical interest in the working classes. The Duke of York's camps might seem a bit quaint now, and were a fairly small-scale operation, but they were quite forward-thinking at the time. "


I don't think they seem they quaint--rather a combination of today's Boy Scouts (which obviously still exists) and the more modern Boys and Girls Clubs--which are popular here in the States as a way to keep kids off the streets and engaged in more wholesome activities such as sports, crafts, gaming, etc... They ran from 1921-1939, obviously WW2 brought them to an end. Does anyone know why they didn't pick back up under perhaps one of the junior Dukes?

Princess Mary was active in the UK version of the Girl Scouts (was it called that?) as were the Duke of Connaught and the Prince of Wales

(http://www.scouting.milestones.btinternet.co.uk/coroimages/hrhelwes02.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 16, 2010, 02:11:35 PM
GDElla, the UK girls scouts are called Giirl Guides. I think Princess Margaret was also a patron and now Princess Anne-  she is  the most "outdoorsy" lass in the family.
 It just seems to me that the Duke & Duchess of Windsor were   simply too vacuous, indolent and selfish to  do much for anyone. After all, they  associates were all rich and did not need anything and they were notoriously cheap with their staff, which was not unique to them alone by any means.
 Even the Duke's famous "something must be done"  comment  was just  for PR. nothing was ever done {that was regarding conditions in the coal mines and the workers)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 16, 2010, 04:07:29 PM
Thanks, Robert. I thought it was perhaps Girl Guides but wasn't sure. Yes, the 'something must be done' always just irritated me. He maybe had some good intentions but what really could he do? He didn't make policy and even making public statements would've constituted monarchial meddling in politics--he either knew that already or just didn't care (witness the fears ministers had about his potential meddling). The best he could have done is continue to bring attention to it by visiting the sights and keeping them in the public mind.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Greenowl on February 16, 2010, 05:00:12 PM

I for one feel that this has gone for far too long, and Mr Lowe should either be banned or have his posts 'reviewed' before they appear. He detracts from the excellent posts of the Grandduchessella and those like her, who make this site and forum a pleasureable and informative destination.
So Mr Lowe, perhaps like 'the Windsors', you should be banished from the realm! OUT! OUT! OUT! I say - Be GONE!!!!

R.I.

Could not agree more. Very well said. That famous quote from the Duke "something must be done" seems highly appropriate in the present context. I do hope that the moderators take note and perhaps delete a few thousand of those irritating one-line posts from Mr. Lowe that take up so much space and say absolutely nothing.

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on February 16, 2010, 05:06:38 PM
Greenowl you are so wise!! I volunteer to do it! Oh PLEASE PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE WITH A CHERRY ON TOP Please lovely moderators and oh Sage FA.......let me at 'em! It would be my pleasure and I'll do a very good and thorough job....I promise! You wouldn't hear another word out of me for simply ages which I am sure some people might find an appealing prospsect too!

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 16, 2010, 05:37:19 PM
 The "pomp & circumstance" comment was also rather  out of place,  as  David/Edward Hated that without question. He liked the privileges but  not the duty to earn them, it seems to me. Most royals do.  It reminds me of HM the Queen  at a a photo session   with Annie Leibowitz [sic?] when there was some sort of delay, and she said "I do not get dressed like this every day!" and marched back to her apartment. I think she was all done up in  Order robes with a tiara The delay, as I recall, was due to London sunlight, which can be  "iffy" at best.  Later, when Leibowiitz asked her to remove the  tiara, her dresser told her that it would take time, as it was not just  plopped on her head and pins, claps and such . They dropped that idea.
 And, I have been to 2 Jubilees,  many Troopings, Opening of Parliaments and  State visit processions etc..  Personally, I feel  the Queen does an excellent  job with her sense of duty, but it must be extremely tiring.  Charles has also made  some pretty uncalled for comments  towards the media that gives him so much attention.
 David always made it seem such a burden to himself. Never  paying attention to all the  work  done for him by others. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 16, 2010, 06:08:12 PM
A little off-topic but have you read Annie Liebowitz at Work, Robert? I just bought it for the library and as I was cataloging it, I was reading the section on her portrait session with Elizabeth II. Annie seemed quite intimidated but rather impressed with her no-nonsense nature. As a side, AL also noted that Elizabeth II got rather snappish when she (AL) made a comment about liking the Dorothy Wilding photos taken of the Queen. EII replied that Dorothy Wilding didn't even take them, 'some man' did. I guess Wilding was sub-contracting some of her work at that point. Quite an interesting book.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 16, 2010, 06:32:43 PM
No, I have not read that, GDElla.  I have been slow on book purchases lately.  Much preoccupied with other matters.
 The Queen has been at this for a long time, so she knows her business and I am sure she puts up  with little  nonsense!- Just GET ON WITH IT, so to say.
 I do not remember if David/Edward   went to Royal Ascot  [I did once and was bored to tears!] but that seems to be HM's  bigest pleasure.
 And  speaking of the Windsors,   I was thinking- none of my British friends  pay much, if any attention to them, of the "pomp & circumstances" superficiality with even the current royals.  They just take the monarchy for granted. Most have only knowledge of the current sovereign anyway.  Unless one reads about them, the D&D of Windsor never even come up in conversation.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Forum Admin on March 07, 2010, 10:22:53 AM
Forgive the OT intrusion.  I have been contacted privately by several users about the sub-topic conflict between Eric Lowe and several other users. I have spent the better part of an hour reading this entire thread, and looking at others referenced. I must confess I rarely read the Windsor threads, GDE does such a good job of mod here, and they are not high priority on my personal interest list.

GDElla is quite corrrect, as usual, that I give the greatest of latitude for the free and unfettered expression of opinions and discussions here. As it should be, according to Bob. EVERYONE should be able to participate in a reasonable and enjoyable fashion. I lay down few express rules. One is that statements alleged as FACTS must be supported by evidence. The other is that ALL PERSONS ARE TO BE RESPECTED IN PUBLIC. In other words, feel free to disagree with the statements but RESPECT THE POSTER.

ERIC LOWE: You have indeed crossed the line. This is not up for discussion. You have been rude, condescending, arrogant and simply disrespectful of other users. Consider this your one and only warning. I hate to ban users, and will always give everyone the benefit of doubt and chance to behave before taking such a drastic action. However, Eric there will be no further warnings.  Feel free to privately contact me if you have any questions. Also, I am asking that you publicly apologize to Margot and Robert Hall specifically.

I hope this is the end of this matter. Please contact me directly should anyone have any further questions or issues. 

Thank you for you support of our Forum. Carry on!

Rob
FA
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: royal_netherlands on March 07, 2010, 05:39:58 PM
I second that Larry!! Remember when Eric implied that poor Thora was a lesbian with no friends and no tiara, which was of course disproved! And then Ducky was forced ino her fist marriage by QV etc etc. There have been many many other incidents such as this. So much that Eric comes out with really is nauseous to say the least.

Sorry for being a little bit off-topic, but I just want to give my little public support towards in first Margot and the other posters that brought Eric back to earth. My god I'm still recovering from the Toria fight I (and Grace) had wit Eric some time ago. And I remember the Thora stuff too. I respect every poster (newbie or higher), but like an absolute mo narchie, an absolute poster like Eric has to be faced with their misstakes the hard way I suppose.

That was that and I truly enjoy the discussions! Int ressing historical phenomenon those Windsors (the Duke and Duchess I mean)....O god! Going to bed now...a early college in the morning is awaiting!

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kimberly on March 25, 2010, 03:49:21 AM
Cheque books at the ready girls........and boys.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1260048/Shoes-jewellery-owned-Thirties-style-icon-Wallis-Simpson-expected-fetch-250-000-auction.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1260048/Shoes-jewellery-owned-Thirties-style-icon-Wallis-Simpson-expected-fetch-250-000-auction.html)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on March 25, 2010, 04:10:43 AM
I wonder what size feet Mrs Simpson had.

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on March 25, 2010, 05:27:32 AM
I thought someone said she took size five!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on March 25, 2010, 05:44:44 AM
That sounds about right.

Someone as obsessed with her appearance as the Duchess couldn't possibly have big feet!

Ann (5ft 6 but size 8 feet!)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kimberly on March 25, 2010, 11:37:41 AM
The article states that the shoes are size 5 ...........a tad of a squeeze for my size 9 (left), and size 10 (right)..........
UK sizes of course.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on March 25, 2010, 11:58:54 AM
Glad to hear that I'm not the only one here with big feet!

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Emperor of the Dominions on March 25, 2010, 08:45:22 PM
Forgive the OT intrusion.  I have been contacted privately by several users about the sub-topic conflict between Eric Lowe and several other users. I have spent the better part of an hour reading this entire thread, and looking at others referenced. I must confess I rarely read the Windsor threads, GDE does such a good job of mod here, and they are not high priority on my personal interest list.

GDElla is quite corrrect, as usual, that I give the greatest of latitude for the free and unfettered expression of opinions and discussions here. As it should be, according to Bob. EVERYONE should be able to participate in a reasonable and enjoyable fashion. I lay down few express rules. One is that statements alleged as FACTS must be supported by evidence. The other is that ALL PERSONS ARE TO BE RESPECTED IN PUBLIC. In other words, feel free to disagree with the statements but RESPECT THE POSTER.

ERIC LOWE: You have indeed crossed the line. This is not up for discussion. You have been rude, condescending, arrogant and simply disrespectful of other users. Consider this your one and only warning. I hate to ban users, and will always give everyone the benefit of doubt and chance to behave before taking such a drastic action. However, Eric there will be no further warnings.  Feel free to privately contact me if you have any questions. Also, I am asking that you publicly apologize to Margot and Robert Hall specifically.

I hope this is the end of this matter. Please contact me directly should anyone have any further questions or issues. 

Thank you for you support of our Forum. Carry on!

Rob
FA

OT I know -  but I should like to point out, that despite being recently active on the site, Mr Lowe does not seem to have taken the opportunity on this thread to make amends and publicly apologise to Mr Hall and Margot as requested. Am I the only one that believes this shows total contempt for our valuable forum, its members and moderators? Should Mr Lowe continue to maintain his silence; I say again BE GONE! All those in favour????
R.I.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on March 25, 2010, 11:13:32 PM
I thought someone said she took size five!

Does anyone know if that's current sizing or what it was when the shoes were bought? American or British sizing?

I do think the sizes have changed over the years. I have bought vintage shoes with sizes both much larger and smaller than current sizes, depending on where the shoes were originally made. Either way they probably wouldn't fit me... But those shoes are fierce. I could see them on Carrie Bradshaw.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lindelle on March 27, 2010, 05:14:58 AM
How is it that Wallis was so chic?  I know she had the money to do so, but did she have a personal dresser?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on March 27, 2010, 01:13:35 PM
How is it that Wallis was so chic?  I know she had the money to do so, but did she have a personal dresser?

Some people just have the gift. I have a friend like that who's worked as a model and stylist. I'm trying to learn from her. See also, Dita von Teese (http://jezebel.com/tag/ditavonteese/).
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lindelle on March 27, 2010, 05:54:16 PM
Hey Jeniann thanks for that! :)

She certainly DID have the gift of the gab and it must have come naturally to her before she met Edward. After that though, do you think she may have had a personal dresser? She did have more formal engagements to attend and I wonder how she put it all together.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 27, 2010, 06:38:26 PM
Wallis was usually dressed by her designers. They know how  to make her look her best.  She also had a personal maid who looked after  the clothes and helped her dress.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on March 28, 2010, 04:29:41 AM
Let's be honest, she had a doting husband who showered jewllery on her, and nothing else to do but look decorative.

Did Mrs Simpson ever do anything useful in her life?

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on March 28, 2010, 04:37:11 AM
Well she helped keep various couture houses, cordwainers, milliners, haberdashers, hosiers, cobblers, numerous Jewel houses and whatnot in business for decades! Come on Ann, let's not make out that she didn't 'do' anything for enterprise, business and commerce! Even Dior tried to dress her in his early post war collections and that was less than successful, not that it did his house any harm in the long term! Just kidding...but I am sure you get my drift?

With regards to style and why the Duchess managed to always seemed to be able to look fab! I think the Duchess of Windsor tended to know her own style boundaries and that Dior's New Look was about the only silhouette that she simply could not carry off, she did some of later lines far more successfully  including the H line! The Sixties era could have proved her downfall, but Wallis stuck with the classic adaptations and became a loyal patron of Givenchy who created some spectacular garments, which Wallis snatched up and made her own including that wonderfully memorable blue and white striped dress that to this day is timeless! Even into her seventies Wallis seemed able to sense what was good on herself! Love her or hate her one has to admit she had "It" with a huge capital 'I' when it came to image, clothes and how to make them work for her!!!!!!

Interestingly I think Wallis made mistakes but she always managed to rebound and adapt, in this I think Diana, Princess of Wales was very similar as an 'Icon' of fashion! Both had pretty unlimited funds and both made mistakes but ultimately both found their niches ,which are and will no doubt remain timeless in the relevance to them and what they did and wore! Wallis was tiny, Diana a comparative Amazon and yet both achieved their own status as the ultimate exemplars of how clothes can be used in an image conscious world! Couture was probably, in Waliis' case the only way she knew how to fulfill her role as the Duchess of Windsor! No one would or could ever criticize her for not looking the part! Diana eventually used popular designers to make everyone realize that here was woman who could really carry off those spectacular creations such as those by Versace et al! She didn't actually need to be a Princess to do it! That is the parallel!


 


Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 28, 2010, 05:14:36 AM
Ann- Yes, she did. She saved the UK from a  dreadfully selfish and potentially divisive monarch, and got themselves out of the country
Margot, you forget her hairdressers-   Alexandre in Paris  and  some one at the Waldorf Astoria when they were there.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Margot on March 28, 2010, 05:17:03 AM
Ann- Yes, she did. She saved the UK from a  dreadfully selfish and potentially divisive monarch, and got themselves out of the country
Margot, you forget her hairdressers-   Alexandre in Paris  and  some one at the Waldorf Astoria when they were there.

Omigod I can't believe I forgot the HAIR!!!!! Ooooops!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on March 28, 2010, 05:37:36 AM
Robert

I agree. She did perform a considerable service for the British monarchy, albeit unintentionally. Where would we have finished up had Edward VIII stayed on the throne?

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Michael HR on March 28, 2010, 09:33:39 AM
Robert

I agree. She did perform a considerable service for the British monarchy, albeit unintentionally. Where would we have finished up had Edward VIII stayed on the throne?

Ann


I could not agree more. Edward as it turned out was not it seems suitable and seems to have put self before Crown, country and it's people. George VI was a superb monarch and the right man for the time. Elizabeth II has never put a foot wrong and understand the meaning of duty as well.  Had Edward remained I am not sure he would have been a liked and respected King, sadly. He had as a young man shown such promise and was loved. I always remember my Mother saying when he came back here to be buried that she said "he was our King" butt that was before the selfish side came out.

Michael

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Marc on April 08, 2010, 08:28:41 PM
Does anyone have other version of this photo where Duchess is standing?I know I posted it on this board a while ago but now couldn't find it...thnx!

http://www.princessdianabookboutique.com/images/?src=Wallis_Simpson_book_09.jpg&width=300
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: primrose on April 09, 2010, 04:13:51 PM
Does anyone have other version of this photo where Duchess is standing?I know I posted it on this board a while ago but now couldn't find it...thnx!

http://www.princessdianabookboutique.com/images/?src=Wallis_Simpson_book_09.jpg&width=300

This photograph was taken by Cecil Beaton at Chateau de Candé, 25 April 1937, about six weeks before their wedding. The photograph appears on the cover of Sotheby's The Jewels of the Duchess of Windsor auction catalogue which was held in Geneva in 1987. At that time I ordered the book and was swept away by it... it is a gorgeous publication and if you can get your hands on a copy it's worth spending time over, not only for the photographs but for the history it gives.

I actually made a couple of bids on very small things but didn't even come close to the sale prices. Most lots sold for at least 10 times the estimated price and the big winner was the Pasteur Institute in Paris where much of the profits went for AIDs research.

Oops... realize I didn't answer your question about a standing figure but if you check out Cecil Beaton's work online you should find it~
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Marc on April 10, 2010, 05:23:17 AM
Thank you for giving me a clue :-)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lindelle on April 10, 2010, 06:10:35 AM
Robert

I agree. She did perform a considerable service for the British monarchy, albeit unintentionally. Where would we have finished up had Edward VIII stayed on the throne?

Ann


I could not agree more. Edward as it turned out was not it seems suitable and seems to have put self before Crown, country and it's people. George VI was a superb monarch and the right man for the time. Elizabeth II has never put a foot wrong and understand the meaning of duty as well.  Had Edward remained I am not sure he would have been a liked and respected King, sadly. He had as a young man shown such promise and was loved. I always remember my Mother saying when he came back here to be buried that she said "he was our King" butt that was before the selfish side came out.

Michael




Michael, maybe your Mother was a wise woman. I agree, things would've been so different if ONLY he'd had a chance.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on April 10, 2010, 05:47:04 PM
He had a chance, HE was the one who decided to throw it all away when he couldn't have things the way he wanted them.  Not as if he was "sacked"!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Michael HR on April 12, 2010, 12:12:34 PM
I agree, in Mrs Simpson he showed his true colours and the throne was much better off without him as it turned out. Duty before everything else is not something Edward VIII was comfortable with.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Emperor of the Dominions on April 12, 2010, 08:18:26 PM
I agree, in Mrs Simpson he showed his true colours and the throne was much better off without him as it turned out. Duty before everything else is not something Edward VIII was comfortable with.

Perhaps he saw himself as the direct opposite of his mother, and eventually rebelled? One imagines his influences were mostly from his mother in his formative years, as his father appeared more distant to him. No doubt he had seen and heard how much she had given of herself to Crown and Country, first to Eddie then Georgie. Clearly his heart was more important to him than the good of Britain.

His comment about his mother having "iced water running through her veins" rather than the passion that identifies with warm blood and with which he seemed more comfortable, is perhaps the key. Additionally, it would have been clear within informed circles that by late 1935 his duty to the nation would have to intensify, as the storm clouds gathered apropos Germany, therefore his exit visa was guaranteed by his 'love' of Wallis.

There can be no doubt however that when George VI and Queen Elizabeth stood forward to be counted, Britain was saved from the effects of fascism. Today we can see their daughter as our Queen, demonstrating how duty is all important in the role of constitutional monarch within the United Kingdom. One can only conclude that the abdication was a blessing in disguise, saving us from a King who has decided self gratification was the order of the day and who lacked backbone.

R.I. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 12, 2010, 09:23:18 PM
I guess he should have listened to his distant ancestress the Electress Sophia's grandson King Friedrich the Great of Prussia: "Seine Pflicht erkennen und tun, das ist die Hauptsache.", To realize one's duty and do it, that's what it's all about. Old Fritz was homosexual, but still he faced up to his duty to the state and killed a lot of people. (Or was that Ernst Röhm?) Good old Prussian values, that's the best remedy against fascism, if malum malo medicari.

Just chatting aimlessly away, as this topic has been discussed ad nauseam. I just never realized how popular Queen Mary was in Britain for her Prussian sense of duty.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: royal_netherlands on April 26, 2010, 05:12:35 PM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/MaryBertieAlbert.jpg)

Little 'Bertie', Mary and Albert in the year of the death of their great-grandmother Queen Victoria (1901).
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: royal_netherlands on April 26, 2010, 06:10:58 PM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/MayDavidBertie.jpg)

Three years earlier than the photograph posted above, this one was taken of 'May' and her two oldest sons: 'Bertie' and 'David' in 1898. The festivities of The Diamond Jubilee of Queen Victoria was just behind them.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lindelle on April 26, 2010, 06:18:35 PM
Just look at that waist!
She must be really pulled in tight.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: RoyalWatcher on April 26, 2010, 07:27:33 PM
I'm really pleased that the tradition of having young boys wear dresses is no longer in fashion. When I first looked at the wonderful photo, which I had never seen before...thank you, Royal_Netherlands, I thought it was Mary not Bertie!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: belianis on May 30, 2010, 04:30:58 PM
... so why didn't he resign his rights while he still had the chance?
He had three brothers, so obviously the survival of the dynasty did not depend solely on him.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Emperor of the Dominions on May 30, 2010, 06:30:24 PM
Because assuming that is true, and you may be right, Mrs Simpson was the extra catalyst he needed. To incur the wrath of the Royal Family just because he didn't want to fulfill his birthright would be a tremendous weight to bear on his own, with Mrs Simpson he found his get out clause and therefore did not shoulder the blame alone. Indeed she bore the brunt of all the bad feeling as she 'stole our King'. The abdication was unprecedented, and not a move to undertake just because he didn't feel up to it, or want the Throne.

R.I.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyCathy on May 30, 2010, 11:25:06 PM
I must respectfully disagree.  Edward VIII was too afraid of his father to do anything before the King died.  Once the King was dead he showed himself to ba neglectful King.  He left state papers lying around and returned them with liquor stains and cigarette burns.  He hated Buckingham Palace and said it was "very draughty."  He could have married Wallis before he was crowned but he chose not to.  He left his country, his people and his family not so much because of the woman he loved but because he was a true Nazi sympathizer and the government did not want him to be King.  He was a loose cannon.  Wallis was monitored by British Intelligence going in and out of the German Embassy and both of them consorted openly with the fascists.  By threatening to abdicate the DOW played right into Baldwin's hands, giving him the opportunity to get him off the throne and out of the country.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on May 31, 2010, 03:03:07 AM
Despite persisting rumours, what genuine evidence has ever been found that he was a "true Nazi sympathizer"?  Surely if that was the case then he would have aligned himself with them once he was free to do so and evidence just doesn't support that he ever did, as far as I can see.  Personally, I think he was a weak and self-centred man, but not a traitor.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: mcdnab on May 31, 2010, 03:46:47 AM
It is an interesting debate -
Certain members of the establishment believed that he didn't want to succeed by the mid thirties and one person has been quoted as saying he was convinced that Edward had intended to elope with Mrs Simpson but his father's health and imminent death had come to soon.
Another source suggests that Edward initially believed that his succession would make his marriage easier (which on paper it did given that the RMA doesn't apply to a reigning monarch - although the Protestant Oath given the church's view of divorce in 36 soon put paid to his view on that). I do believe that until very late he thought despite the opposition of his family and the establishment (there was some considerable public support for him and the marriage) that he would get his own way - Queen Empress of India the whole bage of tricks as he put it - but with his threat to go if he couldn't marry he played into Baldwin's hands.
I think we have to be extremely careful about allegations of being pro nazi when were talking about the late 1930's. Firstly many many people at all levels of society in Western Europe had appalling memories of the First World War and were exceptionally reluctant to even contemplate a Second one. Secondly the true horror of Nazi Germany was not widely known, was sometimes considered to be exaggerated and if we're being entirely honest there was in a large part of society still a large amount of prejudice about people from Jewish backgrounds. Even the American Government in 1936 was or allowed itself to be conned into letting its athlete's compete in the Olympics despite a strong campaign for a boycott.
George VI, Queen Elizabeth and Queen Mary were as much pro-appeasement as Edward VIII. Being anti war or pro german in the late 1930's didn't automatically make you a fascist.
Edward's pro-german tendencies were in part based on his experiences in France during the First World War (although he was kept very far from the front line), his visit to Germany in 1913 and his relationship with some of his german cousins.
His decision to visit Nazi Germany after the abdication was in part motivated by his desire to still occupy some kind of role - his staff and those of George VI found that he had trouble coping with the change from being someone whose every hour was planned out to days of idle pleasure - and Germany was one of the few places that invited him. He wasn't the brightest individual and was desperate for someone to show Wallis some kind of public acknowledgement.
They also got involved with some highly dubious characters in the late thirties - in part this was because they'd been cut adrift and had little support from the Foreign office (in the way other British VIP's abroad wouldn't have been) - how much either of them new about the political views and opinions of some of those individuals is hard to prove. Edward in particular was so bitter about his treatment by the government of first Baldwin and then Chamberlain (who disliked Edward and was exceptionally fond of King George and Queen Elizabeth - he once described her as the only Royalty he found he could get on with) and the Royal Family that he was seen as pretty much on easy target by those people who thought to use him.
During the period before the abdication and particularly after his accession Wallis was considered a safe route to the King - she wasn't politically aware and even the most sympathetic of biographers have admitted that her knowledge of how a constitutional monarchy worked was simplistic - the German authorities were well aware of Edward's own personal views (he'd seen some of his cousins including the Duke of Saxe Coburg Gotha during his father's funeral) and Ribbentrop was definately encouraged to court "the lady". But so did huge sections of what we would probably call high society - more importantly treating Wallis in this way pleased the King who had a rather sincere sense of chivalry about her and how she was treated.
During the war his behaviour wasn't much better and there are a number of accusations against Edward in particular - some very dodgy currency deals in the Bahamas for example, his lack of discretion and his actions during and after the fall of France which annoyed Churchill in particular. Unfortunately much of this allowed him to be labelled as pro-nazi - his brother King George VI doesn't seem to have taken that too seriously - in fact he joked once about his "Quisling brother".

PS Almost the entire Royal Family dislike Buckingham Palace! George VI and Queen Elizabeth hardly ever stayed there during the war (spending their nights at Windsor and only returning to the Palace during the day. You can't blame them if you read Eleanor Roosevelt's account of conditions there during the War.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on May 31, 2010, 05:39:36 AM
Well he went to Germany to meet Hitler on at least one ocassion and tehre were a number of other proofs that he was  sympathetic when he was in France and had Nazis guarding the chateau for him
One of the reason that he was shifted to become governor of Bermuda was that noone trusted him in Europe or Britain and it was well known that he have been approached by the Nazis and told that if Britain lost the war, they would reinstate him as king

http://iconicphotos.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/article-1024798-01840df300000578-512_468x358.jpg
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on May 31, 2010, 06:50:14 AM
İ found the following in an article about old Life pieces
In 1936, Edward VIII abdicated to marry the woman he loved, a divorcee Mrs Wallis Simpson.However, the Guardian claimed that the king’s decision was due to Mrs. Simpson being a Nazi sympathizer and this was totally unacceptable to the prime minister at the time, Stanley Baldwin. The former Austrian ambassador, Count Albert von Mensdorff-Pouilly-Dietrichstein, who was also a second cousin once removed and friend of George V, believed that Edward himself favoured German fascism as a bulwark against communism.

In 1941, while they were holidaying in Florida, the exiled former king and his consort, now the Duke and the Duchess of Windsor, were spied upon by the FBI on the orders of President Franklin D. Roosevelt. These FBI files, written in the 1940s and now released under America’s Freedom of Information Act, detailed that the Duchess might have been passing secrets to a leading Nazi with whom she was thought to have had an affair and that His Majesty’s Government had known for the fact for some time.

Following Edward’s accession, the German embassy in London sent a cable for the personal attention of Hitler himself. It read: “An alliance between Germany and Britain is for him (the King) an urgent necessity.” In October 1937, the Windsors visited Nazi Germany, met Hitler at his Obersalzberg retreat (above), dined with his deputy, Rudolf Hess, and even visited a concentration camp. The camp’s guard towers were explained away as meat stores for the inmates. The visit was against the advice of the British government and during the visit the Duke gave full Nazi salutes.

At the outbreak of war, the duke served as a military liaison officer in Paris. Hitler made an abortive attempt to bring Edward and his wife to Nazi-sympathetic Spain, and greatly alarmed, the British establishment finally packing the duke off to the Bahamas from 1940-45. Deeply disenchanted by the society that had spun him, the Duke made his Nazi sympathies explicit, once telling a journalist that “it would be a tragic thing for the world if Hitler was overthrown”. In another break from his usual unassuming boyish behavior, he remarked, “After the war is over and Hitler will crush the Americans. We’ll take over. They (the British) don’t want me as their King, but I’ll be back as their leader.”

After the war, the duke and duchess returned to France. He died there in 1972, while the Duchess lived on until 1986.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on June 01, 2010, 05:44:09 AM
I'm not sure whether the Duke of Windsor was an active Nazi sympathiser. However, as a man who was both embittered and lacking in judgement he was an obvious target for approaches from the Nazi leadership, and his actions did nothing to dispel suspicions.

It is really not surprising that George VI, Churchill etc wanted to keep him well out of the way in 1940-45.

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: damaskrose on June 01, 2010, 10:00:09 AM
Does anyone know what any children they might have had would have been titled, with regard to HRH or Prince/Princess?

If I remember reading right, any descendents of David and Wallis would have no title of any kind.   This "errant branch" of the royal family tree was to be pruned off where it split.

There was that rumor that they briefly considered adopting a child, and possibly naming him "David Windsor."  My guess is the feeling behind the thought had little to do with the desire to nurture and raise a child, but probably for other reasons less sincere.   Probably a good thing nothing came of it.  The child would have been raised by nannies, and shipped off early to boarding school.  The dogs were their substitute children, and no doubt satisfied whatever, if any, parental leanings David and Wallis had.********Thank you for this opportunity to respond.Wallis stated in her autobiography "The Heart has it's Reasons"that her one deep regret in her life was her inability to bear children.I believe in her sincerity in this regard.The children of the Duke and Duchesses friends,relatives and staff were treated not only to the Duchesses gaiety and sense of humour,but her kindness,gentleness and generous nature.The Duchess loved especially an old fashioned traditional Christmas celebration.There is no reson in my opinion to believe The Windsors would not have been superb parents.Perhaps even as in many cases,would have changed their lives for the better.

**
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on June 01, 2010, 10:12:39 AM
His Majesty's Declaration of Abdication Act 1936, which gave formal effect to the abdication, specifically excluded any children the Duke might have from the royal succession and royal titles. Presumably any natural children he might have had would have had the ordinary courtesy titles accorded to the children of a Duke. The Adoption Act 1926 makes an adopted child the legal offspring of the adoptive parents, except for inheriting titles (so the adopted son of the late Earl of Swinton did not succeed to the earldom and is plain Mr Cunliffe-Lister).

I can't help thinking that it was a good thing the Duke of Windsor didn't have any children.

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Vecchiolarry on June 01, 2010, 10:33:06 AM
Dear Ann,

I can't help thinking that her famous statement, "One can neither be too rich nor too thin" would be altered to "But, with a baby-bump not so good"!!!!!

Larry
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyCathy on June 01, 2010, 05:12:20 PM
He was also well aware that if Hitler won he intended to depose George VI and Queen Elizabeth and reinstate the DOW on the throne along with his Queen, Her Majesty Bessiewallis Warfield Spencer Simpson Windsor.  David loved his German side.  His host when he went to visit Hitler was his cousin Charles Edward, Duke of Coburg, Prince Leopold's son.  This man was a rabid Nazi and vicious anti-Semite.  He was made head of the Old
Comrade's Association, a group of men who had been followers of Hitler from the beginning.  He was also made head of the German Red Cross.  As such he was fully aware of the euthanasia being practiced on the mentally ill, retarded and socially unacceptable citizens of Germany.  I also read somewhere that he had run a concentration camp but am unable to find the reference.  When Germany went down in defeat, the Duke of Coburg was immediately arrested, tried, convicted and imprisoned for war crimes.  Due to crippling arthritis he was released after a year but fined within an inch of his life and relegated to living in a small cottage adjoining the stables of his castle.  His wife, Princess Victoria Adelaide, had to walk miles to find food for them both and they were sometimes seen scrounging on garbage dumps.  The Dukes' sister, Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone who was married to Queen Mary's brother, went to Germany and saw to it that he eventually got easier living conditions and his wife closer access to food.  I personally have no doubt that the DOW would not have fought on Germany's side in the war, but I do think he saw an opportunity to get what he wanted most--his wife as Queen of England.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on June 01, 2010, 06:51:37 PM
Well there seems to be documented proof of Wallis passing information to the Germans and of close collaboration when Edward was living in France
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: damaskrose on June 02, 2010, 10:41:00 PM
There was never any proof that the Duke and Duchess of Windsor were Nazi sympathizers or collaborated with the Third Reich.Wallis explains in detail her impression of their trip to Germany and David's indignation on the subject of German expansion .There will always be division on the subject of The Windsors.However to exile them for 36 years was unnecessary.Only welcoming their lifeless bodies for burial.There were deep and hurtful injustices done to EdwardVIII.Perhaps in the minds of many to portray him as some weak minded simpleton  makes his mistreatment deserved.That it makes the laws broken to deny his wife her lawful title acceptable.That it justifys his estrangement from his flesh and blood.There is plenty of blame to go around in this situation.Not all of it rests squarely on the shoulders of The Duke and Duchess of Windsor.imo
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on June 02, 2010, 11:19:07 PM
There was never any proof that the Duke and Duchess of Windsor were Nazi sympathizers or collaborated with the Third Reich.Wallis explains in detail her impression of their trip to Germany and David's indignation on the subject of German expansion .There will always be division on the subject of The Windsors.However to exile them for 36 years was unnecessary.Only welcoming their lifeless bodies for burial.There were deep and hurtful injustices done to EdwardVIII.Perhaps in the minds of many to portray him as some weak minded simpleton  makes his mistreatment deserved.That it makes the laws broken to deny his wife her lawful title acceptable.That it justifys his estrangement from his flesh and blood.There is plenty of blame to go around in this situation.Not all of it rests squarely on the shoulders of The Duke and Duchess of Windsor.imo

I agree. There's not much in the way of solid evidence for the Nazi thing. I don't know what happened; I wasn't there. But I feel like in some ways if the exact same stories had gone around (with the same level of evidence) for some less "scandalous" royals who weren't black sheep or anything it wouldn't have been nearly as widely believed.

I did a multi-part post on Wallis on my blog. Well it was originally on Jezebel, but I made a blog for it. Still researching some stuff and fixing errors, but if anyone wants to read it, feel free. I'm probably not right about everything, though.
http://ladytudorrose.blogspot.com/2010/05/wallis-part-1.html (http://ladytudorrose.blogspot.com/2010/05/wallis-part-1.html)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on June 02, 2010, 11:29:38 PM
Well I am sure that if those memoires were written after the war, I am sure she would have reconstructed her memories but if you look at the picture taken of them with Hitler all you can see is pride and ecstasy.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on June 03, 2010, 03:56:04 AM
Damaskrose

There was nothing unlawful about denying Mrs Simpson the HRH. The courtesy titles of members of the royal family are a matter of prerogative power, and just as there is a power to allow them, there is a power to deny them.

As to keeping the Duke and Duchess out of the country, an ex-king is by definition a potential embarrassment to his successor and best kept out of the way - someone has noted on another thread that Boris III of Bulgaria never allowed his father, the ex-king Ferdinand, to visit Bulgaria. And let's face it, the actions of the Duke and Duchess between 1937 and 1945 hardly show them to be reliable people who would be content to live quietly in Britain and stay out of the public eye. There is an element of vicious circle here, but it was inevitable that George VI and later the present Queen were going to tread carefully where the Duke was concerned and keep him out of the way.

It is rather like the Duchess of York expecting to be welcomed into the bosom of the royal family after a lengthy succession of gaffes (to put it kindly).

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on June 03, 2010, 04:53:30 AM
Anyone who thinks there is no evidence that the Duke and Duchess of Windsors were Nazi sympathisers or more should read this.  it was published in the Guardian.
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/6-29-2002-21438.asp
there are a lot of other articles floatinag around the internet.  The sources for this story are British government sources and the FBI
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: CountessKate on June 03, 2010, 07:21:29 AM
There isn't an iota of actual evidence in the whole farrago.  It was simply a collection of unverifiable assertations from unamed sources, much of it clearly smutty gossip.  (Wurttemburg monks for heaven's sake!  Tacking on a possible connection to the Duke's mother and uncle hardly makes this a credible source).  And if the FBI were indeed under the impression that the Duchess of Windsor's pro-German sympathies gave them "strong reason to believe that this is the reason why she was considered so obnoxious to the British government that they refused to permit Edward to marry her and maintain the throne" they certainly had no clue as to the realities of the situation.  Undoubtedly the Duke and Duchess had displayed pro-Nazi sympathies before the war, and the Duke had made a rather indiscreet comment about Britain's abilities to beat the Germans, but the rest looks like the usual wartime hysteria and completely unsubstantiated.  What happened when the Windsors were actually under the direct eye of the FBI?  An "English socialite" (Who?  Why was the FBI so coy about revealing this person's name to their boss, unless it was someone with either a grudge against the Windsors, or completely unreliable) "had told an informant" some old rubbish which apparently had "definite proof" which was not produced.  This is the best evidence the FBI could come up with for more treasonous activity?  I'd say the Duke and Duchess would be laughing.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on June 03, 2010, 07:48:09 AM
The FBI would have had the source recorded but separately.  Considering the position of Edward, it is highly unlikely that the FBI would have been catalogueing unsubstantiated gossip nor M15.  And the Duke of Wurtemburg comes up again and again.  Just because you disagree with it doesnt discount everything.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on June 03, 2010, 07:50:42 AM
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/foi/images/0,9069,1443560,00.html
here is the original
there are two more
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on June 03, 2010, 07:59:00 AM
I am cautious about the pro-Nazi tales and suggestions that the Duchess was passing information to Ribbontrop. However, their activities from 1937-40 show a clear lack of judgement at best, and raise the possibility that the Nazi leadership could have made use of them for their own purposes - or at any raise tried to.

Is anything much known about this 'Father Odo'?

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on June 03, 2010, 09:09:20 AM
Here is something on him before he assumed that disguise
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albrecht,_Duke_of_W%C3%BCrttemberg
that may be Father Odo's fathers bio
I have read a few things that say Father Odo was sent by the Nazis and some that say he was exiled by the Nazis.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyCathy on June 06, 2010, 07:08:21 PM
All I know is that David and Wallis were consorting with the Mosley fascists for years.  British Intelligence had plenty of people who were monitoring who went in and out of the Germany Embassy.  Dudley Forwood, King Edward VIII's equerry, stated unequivocally that after a meeting David would tell Wallis what had gone on and Wallis would go to the German Embassy and tell Ribbentrop.  What business did Wallis Simpson have with the Germany Embassy?  I do not believe for one minute that David Windsor would have sided with Hitler if his country was being bombed.  I do believe that his dearest wish was for his wife to be Queen of England and he would have gone along with just about anything to have that happen.  This includes deposing his brother, King George VI and Queen Elizabeth and his two nieces, Elizabeth and Margaret.  I believe that the Queen Mother kinew this, although it must have been very hard for Bertie to accept.  I hope I am not offending anyone, but he was really an exceptionally stupid, uneducated, spoiled man, who was totally obsessed with his wife and what he could give her so she would keep loving him.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Douglas on June 06, 2010, 09:08:24 PM
I looked  recently through Wilson's book,  "Dancing With the Devil" for the secret of their marriage .

As for Wilson's other blockbuster revelation -- that the duchess was genetically male -- that's also a secondhand thought, taken from Bloch, who heard it from a long-dead gynecologist in London, who heard it from a physician who had treated the duchess.

 According to this theory, Wallis Simpson had androgen insensitivity syndrome, a hormonal irregularity that causes a genetically male body to develop as a woman, although without fully developed sex organs. "When they reach maturity such women exude certain male characteristics and can have unusually strident personalities," Wilson tells us. "Such people cannot bear children and unless aided by surgery, often cannot experience sexual intercourse."

 There has also been plenty of rumors that the Duke and Duchess  never had sex in the normal sense. Their romantic life was of the type that is called 'oral'.  "No man is allowed to touch me below the Mason-Dixon Line," the duchess once said.

We must remember that Wallis had no children as a result of her three marriages.  As a romantic couple, I always admired them.  They made the best of an unusual life.  Vapid, narcissistic, pointless, of course...but what would you expect from such a union.  

The Duke as an intellectual?  Not really, his father and mother discouraged him from intellectual pursuits.   His pursuits centered on the territory below the Mason-Dixon line.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on June 06, 2010, 09:47:30 PM
I heard that she was a hermaphrodite, which is probably another way of saying what you did.  It is very sad to think that Edward gave up his royal responsibilities for good sex.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Greg_King on June 06, 2010, 10:07:07 PM
And people wonder why Wallis has a bad reputation? She's been vilified more often and frequently than just about any other royal figure I can think of.

So let's put this nonsense straight to bed: In 1998 I interviewed Dr. Jean Thin, the personal physician to the Duke and Duchess in Paris, for my biography of Wallis, and asked him directly about what Bloch had said regarding Wallis's sexuality. Thin said that it was nonsense-he'd personally done cervical examinations of the Duchess-and specifically asked that I QUOTE HIM that she had :normal female sexual organs" on this as dispelling it. Later I contacted Bloch who admitted that it was all rumor. Just stop for a second and consider everything that's been said-she was a prostitute, she was a hermaphrodite, she was a man, she had (according to British Intelligence) "genitalia knotted like grapes" that prevented intercourse (and this from "people who had "seen" her in childhood, no less). Consistency demands that at least some of these cannot be true if others are-and there is absolutely NO evidence for any of this nonsense about her being a man, having deformed genitalia, etc. She DID have a hysterectomy in 1933 or 1934 that Barbara Cartland told me about-and Wallis had told her about it; Aline, Countess of Romanones, also confirmed this to me. I feel really confident in stating that there is absolutely no truth to these tales
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on June 06, 2010, 10:21:49 PM
 Re Reply #959 and Douglas:  Was there not a quote that made the rounds, attributed to Wallis stating that as for having progeny, the Duke  "was not "Heir-conditioned?'"  Seems to have been enough mis-connects to spread blame around!  (Perhaps it has been mentioned before on one of these threads.)  Additionally, some other rude/crude (and unprintable) remarks about his comparative "development" are allegedly from fellow military officers  housed in somewhat close quarters with the (at that time) young Prince, or either from changing room members of sports teams in which he participated. (And, yes, I know the typical "rejoinder" retort that is usually proffered in reply, but I'm not certain that HE had that "ready response"!)   Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Douglas on June 06, 2010, 10:53:58 PM
Re Reply #959 and Douglas:  Was there not a quote that made the rounds, attributed to Wallis stating that as for having progeny, the Duke  "was not "Heir-conditioned?'"  Seems to have been enough mis-connects to spread blame around!  (Perhaps it has been mentioned before on one of these threads.)  Additionally, some other rude/crude remarks about his comparative "development" are allegedly from fellow naval officers  housed in somewhat close quaters with the (at that time) young Prince.    Regards,  AP.

I just don't know for sure anything about this royal pair, Alexsandr.  You read and hear all kinds of rumors about their private life.  I agree with Greg that Wallis was certainly female.  But beyond that,  all we have is speculation and gossip.  Everyone who has studied this pair have heard the rumors about Wallis favorite sex act, that it was this act that cemented the Duke to her for life and was the occasion of many of his jewelry gifts to her.  Wouldn't surprise me at all, if it were fact but who really knows.  Stranger things have happened.

 Complex and lovely a pair as they were, I wouldn't doubt that some rumors were true.  Plus, we can't forget the famous Duke, Duchess and Donahue aventure.  What was that really all about?  Knowing men and women as I do, I can imagine many things in the mix.

Confidently yours,.

 DH

PS:  Greg writes: "So let's put this nonsense straight to bed"......did you really mean to say that..??

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyCathy on June 07, 2010, 07:00:24 PM
This is what I believe.  Wallis was a woman.  She had a hysterectomy and therefore had female "parts."  She did sleep around and may have developed cervical cancer which necessitated a hysterectomy.  The Duke of Windsor was probably sterile having had the mumps as a school boy.  If a baby had happened I think the Duke would have been head over heels with the baby as he, along with all of King George V's children were great parents and very sweet with kids.  Just my own thought here is that I am glad they had no children as who knows what kind of problems would have cropped up about hereditary kingship etc.  I am glad they showered all their parental love on their terrible dogs who were spoilt beyond belief, and I tend to think that Wallis would not have made a good mother, but that is just me and I may be wrong.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 07, 2010, 10:08:57 PM
I have tossed out the lunatic pressing claims to be the illegitimate bastard child of the Duke of Windsor and a paid prostitute.  We brook no tolerance for unsubstantiated claims, more so today when a cheap DNA test can conclusively prove or disprove the claim.

I admit I was at first willing to allow her to post, without any reference to her claims of paternity until I saw her own website.  That made my decision easy. This is a place of genuine historical discussion, backed up with facts, not wild assertions.

Thanks to the person who gave me the heads up about this.   This lunatic is banned, like all the rest.

carry on

FA


Yes, this person made the following claims as well which I found on an *ahem* 'newsgroup':

"Queen Elizabeth is Hitler’s Niece says King Edward’s daughter

Queen Elizabeth’s father, King George VI, was also Adolph Hitler’s half-brother (not father as initially reported) according to Emily Elizabeth Catherine Josephine Mary Windsor-Cragg, [illegitimate] daughter of Edward VIII Duke of Windsor.

“Hitler was born in 1889 five years before Edward VIII, when "Georgie" (Victoria's favorite) was 23, long before his marriage to May Teck. He was brought up and abused as the eldest son in Bavaria, and Kaiser Wilhelm, the idealist, was in touch with him. The Duke of Windsor met his older half-brother for the first time in Germany in 1937; however, I have a document that shows Hitler was an intel agent for the British in the 1920's, so he probably KNEW Wallis,” she says.

“Edward VIII Duke of Windsor was routed out, scapegoated, bankrupted, exiled and labeled as Not-See because his wife, unbeknownst to him on his wedding day, was an MI-5 agent of his Father, the King George V,” she says.

“Edward VIII [my dad] was never allowed to marry anybody he liked; only ditsie royal women were permitted to him. So, of course, a black intel ops woman was very attractive, if only because he was so isolated from marriageable women,” she continues.

“The whole story is held at Windsor Library in the Royal diary archives near where my father made his home before he was kicked out of England,” she adds.

Kaiser Wilhelm was exiled and Czar Nicholas was slaughtered by the Cocaine addicted bully George V because they knew the secret about Hitler’s parentage, says Lady Windsor-Cragg.

This information about Hitler contradicts the results of an Austrian Parliamentary investigation and other testimony by close Hitler aides that his father was the Baron Rothschild. Hopefully authorities in the UK will act promptly to check the Royal diary archives to confirm Lady Widnsor-Cragg’s assertions before the evidence is hidden."


Ah--so now we know the REAL story (about so many things) !  ::)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on June 07, 2010, 10:50:48 PM
Well it is certaing nice to go to bed one night thinking you know the truth and then to be smacked in the face with the truth and have that  revellation turn your world upside down.  Does anyone have Ms Craig-Windsor's contact details, we have her room ready at Chateau Sans Mentis, an elegant little spa.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on June 08, 2010, 03:22:21 AM
This is the most far-fetched tale I've seen this year!

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lindelle on June 08, 2010, 05:17:15 AM
Maybe they just chose not to have children.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on June 08, 2010, 06:11:40 AM
If the Duchess had a hysterectomy in 1933-34 then she could not have had children by the Duke - whether he was sterile or not. That she had no children by her first two husbands suggests that either she was barren in any case, or, alternatively, that she wasn't particularly fertile and the limited contraceptive methods available at that time worked for her.

As to the Hitler tale, for there to be any truth in it, one or other of Hitler's utterly obscure parents would have had to have had a fling with one or other of George VI's (presumably the drunken bully Alois Schicklgruber with the refined Queen Mary). How unlikely can you get?

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on June 08, 2010, 07:12:38 AM
Dear Kalafrana
               Nice of you to give the Hitler story some credence.  I have some waterfrong property for you at knockdown prices.  Viewing is limited to low tide but can arrange  quick transfer for £15 million.  The Kazakhstan deal fell though.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on June 08, 2010, 07:40:11 AM
Constantinople

Let me talk to my bank manager.

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Vecchiolarry on June 08, 2010, 09:08:05 AM
Hi,

Well I had to have a good laugh today - and this was it!!!
They should make this into a bad movie - something like "Scary Movie" only call it "Idiots Movie"...  Paris Hilton could play Hitler (after all she's startng to grow a mustace!!) and Pauly Shore as Wallis (he needs the work!)....
OK, well I told you it was called "Idiots Movie" - what else can I say....

You can scream now!!

Larry
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on June 08, 2010, 09:24:31 AM
The clock is ticking Kalafrana

I have a better name for you Larry
How about

Drum roll

The Turd Reich
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Vecchiolarry on June 08, 2010, 03:50:21 PM
Hi Constantiople,

Yea, I like it - "Da Turd Reich"......

You get the prize today for wittiest comment!!

Larry
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 17, 2010, 11:31:14 AM
The duke with Charles Chaplin. He looks very...hmm unconfortable (or surprised!)

(http://i49.tinypic.com/34yw8bt.jpg)

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 17, 2010, 06:25:50 PM
I wonder who were the women ?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on June 18, 2010, 03:39:53 AM
arm candy?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 18, 2010, 09:14:41 AM
The duke with Charles Chaplin. He looks very...hmm unconfortable (or surprised!)

(http://i49.tinypic.com/34yw8bt.jpg)



Is one of them one of the Furnesses? Charlie Chaplin had a dinner party for the Prince of Wales in Biarritz one evening. Thelma Furness introduced Charlie to the Prince of Wales when they were all vacationing in France. They were guests of Lord & Lady Auckland. Charlie would also have tea with the Duke of Connaught through mutual friends at Cap Ferrat.

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 18, 2010, 09:16:42 AM
I think the one beside Charlie could be Thelma and not the other one.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 18, 2010, 09:18:47 AM
thelma could be the women in the left but im not so sure. Anyway, here is a picture of her with  the duke

(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3372/3293176.jpg) (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/3293176.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 18, 2010, 09:20:56 AM
I think the one beside Charlie could be Thelma and not the other one.  ;)

Whoops. Meant to say one of the Furnesses not to indicate one of the women at the table. The one on the right obviously isn't one of them.

And perhaps David looks uncomfortable because he just remembered that he had an affair with Chaplin's 1st wife (albeit after they were divorced) Mildred Harris in 1920 or 1921.  :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 18, 2010, 09:22:06 AM
What was the date of this photo ? I wonder....
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 18, 2010, 09:27:10 AM
What?!!! thats new for me! i had no idea that David an an affaire with Mildred Harris!!

Date of the picture? i think its early 1930s.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 18, 2010, 09:28:50 AM
Thanks for the dating.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ashdean on June 18, 2010, 03:04:40 PM
thelma could be the women in the left but im not so sure. Anyway, here is a picture of her with  the duke

(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3372/3293176.jpg) (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/3293176.jpg/)

 
Thelma is the lady...she is wearing her famous black pearls.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lindelle on June 18, 2010, 03:09:27 PM
Famous as in they were the only ones she wore?
Or famous for another reason?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: ashdean on June 18, 2010, 03:21:19 PM
Famous as in they were the only ones she wore?
Or famous for another reason?
Famous because they were a particulary costly double row which surpassed in price the rope of natural coloured  pearls given her sister by HER mother in law Alice Gwynne Vanderbilt and said to be worth $100,000.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lindelle on June 18, 2010, 03:23:58 PM
WOW!
Who then gave her the black pearls?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Vecchiolarry on June 18, 2010, 06:43:42 PM
Hi,

Just a guess here:
If the picture is taken in the early 30's (30, 31) then the lady on the left could be Lita Grey, Charlie's second wife.
The lady does somewhat resemble Lita Grey....
By 1932, Charlie had hooked up with Paulette Goddard;  but this is not Paulette here...

As with Eric, I'd like to know what year this was taken???


Larry
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 27, 2010, 09:57:48 AM
im not 100% sure but my knowledge about fashion, says its from early 1930s.

Happy couple

(http://i48.tinypic.com/11k9thy.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on June 27, 2010, 10:08:24 AM
That picture is probably from the 1960s or maybe teh late 50s at the latest.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 27, 2010, 10:09:09 AM
Id says sixties, judging Wallis hairdo and make up.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 27, 2010, 11:44:48 AM
You can tell, just by looking at their faces, that they were no longer the young couple they once were. Wallis has that makeup on industrial strength And though she had been around the block not a few times,  the Duke looks rather weather beaten.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: RoyalWatcher on June 27, 2010, 07:07:36 PM
The Duchess kinda creeps me out with her hideous drawn on eyebrows...awful. She reminds me of Joan Crawford in "What Ever Happened to Baby Jane." Disturbing movie.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on June 27, 2010, 10:44:10 PM
Katenka,
            it was you who originally said the pic was taken in the early 30s which is why I made the comment about the date in the first place.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 28, 2010, 09:35:24 AM
The other picture, the one of David with Charles Chaplin, not this one.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on June 28, 2010, 09:52:07 AM
yes I agree with you then.  But why did you put that comment on the other picture.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 28, 2010, 10:22:43 AM

As with Eric, I'd like to know what year this was taken???


Larry
im not 100% sure but my knowledge about fashion, says its from early 1930s.

 

Because of that.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on June 28, 2010, 10:57:09 PM
ok
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Lindelle on June 29, 2010, 06:09:04 PM
im not 100% sure but my knowledge about fashion, says its from early 1930s.

Happy couple

(http://i48.tinypic.com/11k9thy.jpg)


Did she have her mole removed?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 11, 2010, 08:53:43 AM
Young Wallis

(http://i26.tinypic.com/27x1gli.jpg)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on July 11, 2010, 02:38:17 PM
Is it just me or has anyone else noticed a slight resemblance of teh younger Walliis to earlier pictures of Rasputin?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Adagietto on July 11, 2010, 04:23:26 PM
I see what you mean, there is a faint resemblance, I wonder if it would survive if the shrubbery were cleared.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: royal_netherlands on July 11, 2010, 05:29:12 PM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/ThePrinceofWaleswiththeBelgiumRoyal.jpg)

The Prince of Wales with the Royal Family of Belgium (1923) from left to right: Princess Marie-Jose of Belgium, Queen Elisabeth of Belgium, the Prince of Wales, King Albert of Belgium and standing behind Crownprince Leopold and his brother Prince Carl of Belgium
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on July 12, 2010, 12:32:55 AM
One time when I went to the Guards Museum in London.  One of the proctors showed me a uniform of the Duke of Windsor and it was amazing how tiny he actually was, like an adolescent child.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 12, 2010, 07:16:37 AM
Yes!! i wonder from who he inheredit the short size!.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on July 12, 2010, 07:54:37 AM
'Yes!! i wonder from who he inheredit the short size!'

Most of the British royal family at that time were distinctly short. I suspect this was inherited from Queen Victoria who was under 5ft tall. George V was no more than 5ft 6 (in photographs he is clearly shorter than Nicholas II, who was 5ft 7 and much shorter than the Kaiser, who was 5ft 9). I don't know how tall Queen Mary was - can anybody help?

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 12, 2010, 08:03:09 AM
She looks very tall!, at least taller than George.


 Well...i knew that George V was short as his cousin Nicholas but i never found petite Alexandra or Bertie, that s why i wondered why. But know that you said that QV was a petite lady, i understand where that comes from, Thanks you!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on July 12, 2010, 08:52:21 AM
I don't think Edward VII was all that tall. It's not easy to tell, as in group photos he tends to be with ladies or is sitting down.

George VI was taller than the Duke of Windsor, but I have read somewhere that the Duke of Gloucester was the tallest of George V's sons.

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 13, 2010, 01:28:59 PM
This made me laugh. In 1945 the Duke went to visit his mother, later Queen Mary wrote "Very nice he was, quite like old times; very well informed...but still persisting about receiving his wife when he promised he'd never mention the subjct...his lasts words when going away - "Well goodbye" -and don't forget: I am a married man now."  Don't forget indeed; as if one ever could!"  ;D ;D ;D!!!!!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 17, 2010, 02:58:37 AM
Quote
He and the Duchess were able to enjoy leisure and luxury for the rest of their lives.

Quite the opposite.  George reneged on the financial settlement. In 1938 he granted Edward 25,000 pounds per year, pension, for life, at the point the Duke was so desperate for funds he agreed to any terms at all.

In 1972, the year he died, Edward was receiving the equivalent of the salary of a retail store manager in the USA.  If the French Government hadn't given them a place to live, free, I don't know what the Duke would have done.  As it was, he had to spend a great deal of time pandering to rich friends.

You see, the story they tell is not the story he tells.  And you can see from his agonized eyes, that he is telling HIS TRUTH.

(http://www.holyconservancy.org/papa/1955edwdviii.png)



Sadly the Duke felt the need to lie about his finances. This hurt his brother very much....
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on July 17, 2010, 03:26:55 AM
As a former King, he probably had more right to being financially supported than some of the more distant royal cousins did.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: mcdnab on July 17, 2010, 11:31:16 AM
Traditionally Princes of Wales did not receive any financial support from the state because they automatically receive the revenues from the Duchy of Cornwall (the traditional title of the heir to the throne).
On his death George V left large cash bequests to each of his children but not to his heir - specifically because Edward VIII as Prince of Wales should and had built up large cash assets since he came of age.
The financial agreements made between David and Bertie at the abdication were rushed and were based on David's lie that he had no cash assets (It later emerged that he had around a million in cash some of which he'd already settled on his future wife - that lie was one thing that hardened the attitude of the Palace).
David sold his brother Balmoral and Sandringham (with the payment spread over a number of years) which were his personal property inherited from his father. And Bertie agreed to a set figure each year which if not included in the new civil list he would guarantee to pay David himself.
One of the reasons that the Duke remained in France for much of his life was the favourable tax status he'd been granted there - in all his discussions about a role after the war (he was keen to live in America) was a desire to be in some kind of official diplomatic role in order to gain tax advantages.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Constantinople on July 17, 2010, 12:18:05 PM
thanks for the well researched clarification.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 23, 2010, 02:48:23 AM
Mrs Simpson's jewels are up for sale again!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1296909/For-sale--Wallis-Simpson-jewels-charted-romance-King-Edward-VIII.html
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 23, 2010, 07:48:34 AM
One of the most romantic royal jewels.  ;)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Carisbrooke on March 24, 2011, 03:35:26 AM
MY DARLING FREDIE WEDIE: EDWARD VIII's LOVE LETTER TO HIS FIRST MISTRESS TO BE AUCTIONED
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1368914/Edward-VIII-incurable-romantic-Letter-mistress-Mrs-Simpson-reveals-loving-nature.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1368914/Edward-VIII-incurable-romantic-Letter-mistress-Mrs-Simpson-reveals-loving-nature.html)

Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 30, 2011, 02:06:59 PM
I was reading today on  BBC Entertainment news that Madonna's new film on Wallis & Edward will open in December, in time for Oscar nominations. She is directing it, not starring.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: RoyalWatcher on June 30, 2011, 02:34:00 PM
I also read that the test screenings have not gone well and the movie needs to be re-edited. Apparently, the movie was filmed in a stylized sort of way without the benefit of dialog to explain certain things. Of course, this happens all the time in movies, but from what I read even Harvey Weinstein wasn't too pleased with the results of the test screenings.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 30, 2011, 02:48:11 PM
I really know very little about the project I have nothing against Madonna, and even liked her EVITA, but I am not a big fan of hers.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LauraO on August 17, 2011, 01:11:26 PM
sorry if there's somewhere  better i should have put this or this has previously been talked about, but i was reading in a magazine today that letters from wallis simpson to her ex husband (or the husband she was  in the process of divorcing at the time) had been unearthed, telling him that she basically regretted getting involved with the future king and that she loved him and was very lonely etc. and had got herself in too deep. I found this interesting as i'd never really thought of the story along those lines before. apparently she wanted to leave him but edward threatened to cut his throat if she did. anyone know anything more about this?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kimberly on August 17, 2011, 01:30:12 PM
I think Anne Sebba discusses this in her new bio of Wallis Simpson.
At the Cheltenham Literature Festival in October, Anne Sebba and Hugo Vickers are going to give a talk on Wallis..........just booked my tickets:-)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LauraO on August 17, 2011, 01:34:29 PM
yeah that name rings a bell from the article, apparently the source of the letters could not be told or something, i wondered if anyone had extracts etc?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LadyTudorRose on August 17, 2011, 03:40:44 PM
None of those letters are particularly romantic, and she never writes that she doesn't love Edward or anything about being trapped into marrying him. If she did that would be the part quoted in the articles. It's all just speculation on the part of this Anne Sebba woman  (who also believes Wallis wasn't completely female) and she took bits and pieces from letters to back it up.

If there was anything really lurid or even surprising in those letters it would have gotten out long before now.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: feodorovna on August 18, 2011, 01:12:29 AM
I think Anne Sebba discusses this in her new bio of Wallis Simpson.
At the Cheltenham Literature Festival in October, Anne Sebba and Hugo Vickers are going to give a talk on Wallis..........just booked my tickets:-)


I am SO jealous!!! The tone of these letters is really interestin because I have always maintained that this "love affair" was  totally one-sided. He was besotted and determined to have her. She was his escape-route from a throne he never wanted to occupy, so as far as that goes I don't believe her feelings mattered to him. He very effectively backed her into a corner so tight-arranging a "civilized" divorce behind her back, promising to find her wherever she tried to run to and threatening suicide-she was left with no choice, she HAD to marry him, which is rather different from saying she WANTED to. I suspect there were many occasions when she wished she was still married to Ernest.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LauraO on August 18, 2011, 02:17:51 AM
I think Anne Sebba discusses this in her new bio of Wallis Simpson.
At the Cheltenham Literature Festival in October, Anne Sebba and Hugo Vickers are going to give a talk on Wallis..........just booked my tickets:-)


I am SO jealous!!! The tone of these letters is really interestin because I have always maintained that this "love affair" was  totally one-sided. He was besotted and determined to have her. She was his escape-route from a throne he never wanted to occupy, so as far as that goes I don't believe her feelings mattered to him. He very effectively backed her into a corner so tight-arranging a "civilized" divorce behind her back, promising to find her wherever she tried to run to and threatening suicide-she was left with no choice, she HAD to marry him, which is rather different from saying she WANTED to. I suspect there were many occasions when she wished she was still married to Ernest.

this is pretty much the tone that the letters gave, i wished i'd got the article now but its  at a friends house...
there's a tv show about this on one night next week i think, not sure though...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LauraO on August 18, 2011, 02:20:48 AM
just found extracts from the article:

"None of this mess and awakening emptiness is my doing," she wrote.

In another letter, she proclaimed: "I miss you and worry about you. Wasn't life lovely, sweet and simple?"


Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: feodorovna on August 18, 2011, 04:24:37 AM
For anyone interested, Wallis simpson: The Secret Letters is to be shown Wednesday August 24th on Channel 4 at 9pm. I shall be glued to the screen!!!!!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: CHRISinUSA on August 18, 2011, 07:53:07 AM
It is part of human nature to adopt one slant when addressing one person, and a different slant when addressing someone else.  These letters are basically between Wallis and her former husband, so she may have been slanting her words to reassure him, make him feel better, or to defend her decisions and actions as being "outside my control."  If letters emerged in which Wallis wrote to people other than Earnest saying the exact same sentiments, this story would have greater validity in my eyes.

But even if she was being 100% straightforward with her ex husband, it isn't that surprising that she felt somewhat trapped and handled.  It seems to me that Wallis was a lady used to being in the driver's seat, if you will.  Part of her power was her ability to manipulate the men around her to suit her.  Once he became king, Edward was no longer in control of his own role and life - the British and Commonwealth Governments were.  By extension she lost her ability to control, which to a lady like Wallis would have made the relationship no longer attractive. 

She certainly tried to exit gracefully, but it was too late.  She yes, she was trapped - but never forget it was a cage of her own making.  Perhaps not the exact cage she had imagined, but one she had participated in building by getting involved with Edward in the first place.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Alixz on August 18, 2011, 08:58:26 AM
With her past record of moving about when it suited her, I have always thought that Mrs. Simpson was trapped by her own sense of self importance.

I think she liked being his mistress and the envy of all, but unless she could have been queen, I don't think she wanted to marry Edward VIII.

Once her gave up the throne for her as publicly as he did, I think she was just stuck.  Hoist by her own petard - as it were.

She may have been his way out of taking a throne he didn't want, but I do believe that he loved her.  She, I think, was an adventuress who got caught in her own webs and then was stuck in a marriage she didn't want (perhaps loveless on her part after the first blush) to a man who not only disgraced himself, but his position in the world as well.

Also remember that George V and Queen Mary were not easy parents.  His children did not have a close and easy relationship with either parent and perhaps Edward knew when it happened that Queen Mary had seen to it that George was given the drugs that killed him. 

I would think that knowing that your mother had a hand in killing your father would make you think a lot about taking over the position that your father had had.  Edward had been unsure of wanting the throne for years.  That might have just been the last straw.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LauraO on August 18, 2011, 10:17:01 AM
i completley agree, she always seemed to me in some ways like a poorer american version of the queen mother, in the way that she tried to control and manipulate people and situations- the difference here was that wallis simpson was seen as a goldigger who wanted a place in society, the Queen mother was excellent at doing this- and so maintained her role as a motherly kind lady
thats why i find it so ironic and funny that wallis simpson called her "cook" or whatever it was, because in the end she got what mrs simpson wanted and did it a thousand times better.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 18, 2011, 11:08:30 AM
You mean "Cookie"...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: CHRISinUSA on August 18, 2011, 11:16:29 AM
perhaps Edward knew when it happened that Queen Mary had seen to it that George was given the drugs that killed him.  I would think that knowing that your mother had a hand in killing your father would make you think a lot about taking over the position that your father had had.  Edward had been unsure of wanting the throne for years.  That might have just been the last straw.

I think reaching this conclusion is a bit of a stretch.  George was already dying, the drugs merely hastened that by a matter of hours, a day at the most.  The doctor who administered those drugs reportedly did so (at least in part) so that the death could be reported in the main papers rather than the tabloids, but the real reason was no doubt to ease his suffering.  Given that, I doubt that Edward linked that decision in any way to his desire (or lack of desire) to accept the crown.  
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: LauraO on August 18, 2011, 11:18:47 AM
You mean "Cookie"...

lol, yes :)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on August 18, 2011, 11:46:33 AM
By coincidence I'm in the midst of reading Greg King's biography of the Duchess of Windsor (interesting, but he does seem to interpret everything ambivalent in favour of the Duchess, and seems incapable of realising that George VI had very good reasons for wanting the Duke and Duchess to be out of sight and out of mind!)

It would seem that the marriage to Ernest Simpson was happy enough until Ernest (not surprisingly) started to get jealous of his wife's involvement with Edward. I am also inclined to accept that the Duchess had very mixed feelings (again, not surprisingly) about the whole business of divorcing and remarrying for the second time.

King has a fair amount to say about the Duchess's first husband, who would seem to be a man of some ability ruined by drink.

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 18, 2011, 12:56:42 PM
I think Wallis wanted to be the royal mistress and enjoy the ride. The concept of marring Edward VIII amid the disapproval of family & nation was not her idea at all. When the British government asked her to withdraw her petition for divorce to stop the abdication, Wallis agreed at once. 
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Alixz on August 18, 2011, 01:56:08 PM
I just ordered Greg's book on Wallis this morning.  This thread got me thinking that I hadn't read anything definitive on her for years.  The reviews on Amazon did say the Greg tends to be "softer" on Wallis than most of her biographers, but I usually like his style so I decided to give it a go.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 18, 2011, 02:08:49 PM
I enjoyed  Greg's tome on Wallis as well., but that was 1999 but it did not change  my rather harsh view of the woman, or David, for that matter. It may have softened me a bit but not by much.
 I like his style in writing about historical figures.  Whether it be  Sharon Tate or Mrs Astor. And, of course, the Romanovs.
 I am waiting for the new Vickers book. I bought it in London on my last visit, but it seems to be lost in the post. Now Amazon US has it so I have it in my cart there.
 I have never even heard of Anna Sebba before. But it does look very promissing to me.
 
 And, are these the same Wallis letters  going up for auction ? [maybe they already have ?]
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 18, 2011, 05:14:06 PM
I ment Sebba's book dos NOT look very promising to me. We have heard the  sex story before and there is simply  nothing to support it.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: feodorovna on August 19, 2011, 01:28:15 AM
It is my belief that marriage with Edward never entered Wallis' head as she was content with Ernest. David did all the running because he was totally besotted and because he may have seen her as a means of escaping the throne, something I imagine he kept to himself. David engineered her divorce during a private tete a tete with Ernest, thus removing her last safety net. She was backed into a corner. In the eyes of the world a King had left his kingdom for her-I imagine he reminded her of this fact when he threatened to find her wherever she tried to hide or to end his life-what a dreadfull responsibility for her to carry. Of course, there would have been compensations but I suspect the occasions were numerous that she wished herself still married to Ernest.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on August 19, 2011, 03:25:05 AM
I think Greg King is indeed 'soft' on the Duchess of Windsor, and my opinion hasn't changed much either, though I found the book interesting. He also contradicts his own evidence. Writing of the 1950s, he claims that the Windsors did not seek a free ride and paid the going rate for everything. However, only a few pages earlier they were leasing their house in Paris from the French Government for a nominal 50 francs per year, and a few pages further on they gave up travelling on board the Queen Mary in favour of the United States because Cunard charged them the full fare for their swanky accommodation, whereas the United States on charged them the ordinary first-class fare for accommodation worth three times that! He is also very vague on where all their money came from (the Royal Family were paying the Duke £21,000 per year, a huge sum then, but clearly they weren't living within that).

Ernest Simpson doesn't seem to have been a bad chap.

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on August 19, 2011, 04:58:32 AM
It is my belief that marriage with Edward never entered Wallis' head as she was content with Ernest. David did all the running because he was totally besotted and because he may have seen her as a means of escaping the throne, something I imagine he kept to himself. David engineered her divorce during a private tete a tete with Ernest, thus removing her last safety net. She was backed into a corner. In the eyes of the world a King had left his kingdom for her-I imagine he reminded her of this fact when he threatened to find her wherever she tried to hide or to end his life-what a dreadfull responsibility for her to carry. Of course, there would have been compensations but I suspect the occasions were numerous that she wished herself still married to Ernest.

I totally agree with you, Ann!  Wallis was socially ambitious but not the calculating King-stealer so many made her out to be then and now.  I think she was horrified when David announced he was throwing it all away to marry her but, as you say, she was backed into a corner.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on August 19, 2011, 06:22:58 AM
Hello Grace

The passage you quote is one I agree with but it comes from Feodorovna rather than me.

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: CHRISinUSA on August 19, 2011, 07:44:35 AM
He is also very vague on where all their money came from (the Royal Family were paying the Duke £21,000 per year, a huge sum then, but clearly they weren't living within that). Ann

Out of curiosity I checked an inflation calculator, and it says Edward's £21,000 annual income in 1937 would be equal to £500,000 today.  Not a bad annual stipend when you pay no taxes on it, and your house is provided virtually free by the French Government.

But beyond that, Edward's funds came from several other sources.  He was paid a sizable amount by George VI for Balmoral and Sandringham (which were inherited by him privately and did not pass to George with the crown).  And for 26 years from 1910 to 1936, he was Duke of Cornwall and by his abdication he had amassed a sizable personal fortune from the duchy's income.  (Incidentally, he did not disclose the true size of his wealth during financial negotiations).  Edward also owned a ranch in Alberta, Canada where he later invested heavily in attempts to either mine or drill for oil (I can't recall which at the moment).  Those investments failed and he lost quite a bit. 

On the expenses side - besides paying no taxes, he lived virtually free in Paris courtesy of the French Government, and as mentioned above received a variety of other perks over the years for things like travel expenses, gifts, etc..  Of course there daily living expenses and staff that had to be paid, but beyond that I cannot imagine what other expenses he had  - aside from indulgent items such as jewelry and clothing, vacations and the like.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on August 19, 2011, 08:16:01 AM
According to Greg King, the house in the Bois de Boulogne was completely redecorated (he devotes pages to the interior design!0 but doesn't say whether the Windsors or the French Government paid for this (the house had recently been occupied by General de Gaulle, so presumably was in reasonable condition). The Windsors also bought and renovated a house in the country called 'The Mill'.

There is something of an issue over whether the income from the Duchy of Cornwall, received by each adult Duke until he succeeds to the throne is 'public' or 'private'. In practice it is used both to cover the cost of public duties (currently for Prince wWlliam and Prince Harry as well as the Prince of Wales), and partly for private expenditure. Newspaper articles frequently fail to make a distinction between the two when criticising Prince Charles for 'extravagance'! Presumably the vast amount that Edward spent on jewellery etc for the Duchess before he became king came from the Duchy income.

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Alixz on August 19, 2011, 08:27:27 AM
I know that we all say that Edward didn't want to be king, but I think he also didn't want to get lost in history.  I think he expected to be a diplomat prince or duke and keep being part of the British scene.

We all think that Wallis was caught "between a rock and a hard place" but I think that David found out that he was, too.

I do remember reading that he fought to get Wallis the title of "Her Royal Highness" but the Brits would have none of it and she was (like Diana, Princess of Wales who after her divorce lost her right to be called royal) simply Duchess of Windsor.  Sort of like Kate is now Duchess of Cambridge and won't be a royal highness until she is queen.  (Do I have that right?)
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on August 19, 2011, 08:30:35 AM
Kate is currently HRH the Duchess of Cambridge, folowing normal usage. She is not Princess Katharine, just as Diana was never 'Princess Diana'.

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 19, 2011, 09:10:20 AM
I actually like Wallis much better than David. She was a fighter.  After marrying an officer who was a wife-beater and grew up without money or security, Wallis of course had to fend for herself. If there is a good time to be had, why not ? She supported David's crazy idea to marry her, but when the choice is her & the throne, she backed out. It was David who threw his own destiny and heritage away and she was certainly not guilty of pulling the strings. Evidence confirmed David's speech that "she did everything to stop it" by even dropping her petition for divorce at the request of government ministers. Yes she was most certainly "backed into a corner"...
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: feodorovna on August 19, 2011, 01:36:56 PM
Whilst I have said that I don't believe Wallis wanted marriage with David, the irony is that I also believe her to have been the only woman suitable to be his wife. My reasons for this are as follows. The influential women in his early life had dominated him and gaining their approval required certain behavioural patterns. His nurse would pinch him just prior to handing him to his mother for his daily visit with her and Queen Mary, who had little understanding of small children, was so irritated by his crying that she handed him straight back into the arms of his mentally unstable nurse who was so obsessed with him that she both neglected and starved little brother, Bertie. It was many months before her behaviour was discovered and she was sacked but the damage had been done. In adulthood David would look for, indeed he would probably NEED, a strong, dominant woman to whom he could be subservient. To find that woman in the form of a nice, wellbred "gel" from the aristocracy would have been next to impossible as by nature they showed deference to Royalty. The demure "Miss" who allowed him to speak first and hung on his every word would have had nothing about her to attract him. Wallis, on the other hand, whilst behaving correctly, lacked that formal deference and when she addressed him I feel that the requisite "Sir" was a last minute add on. She was probably the only woman in the world to treat him like any other man and that made her the one woman he could look up to.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Janet Ashton on August 19, 2011, 04:29:51 PM
By coincidence I'm in the midst of reading Greg King's biography of the Duchess of Windsor (interesting, but he does seem to interpret everything ambivalent in favour of the Duchess, and seems incapable of realising that George VI had very good reasons for wanting the Duke and Duchess to be out of sight and out of mind!)


He explains in the introduction that his intention is to shine a light on her pleasanter side, as the opposite has been given so much attention. It literally was the FIRST bio of the Duchess of Windsor to do this, and he explicitly says that he isn't in the business of denying the darker side and suggesting that that she was perfect; he just has no reason to repeat what has been said before. No-one is harder on what he writes than I am if I think that he is making specious claims, but in this case his claim to be giving her the first fair hearing is perfectly justifiable whether you agree with his views or presentation or not. This isn't about "capability" in seeing any particular viewpoint.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 19, 2011, 05:25:31 PM
Sadly to say the sons of George V were quite wimps without the strong hands of their women.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Alixz on August 19, 2011, 06:03:40 PM
Didn't George V say that he had been afraid of his father and his children would damned well be afraid of him?
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Grace on August 19, 2011, 08:43:07 PM
Hello Grace

The passage you quote is one I agree with but it comes from Feodorovna rather than me.

Ann

Apologies to both Feodorovna and Kalafrana (Ann) for this lapse - I will be more careful next time!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: feodorovna on August 20, 2011, 01:15:23 AM
I suspect there to be more similarities between Wallis and Elizabeth than either would care to acknowledge. Both women enabled the men they married to be the best it was possible for them to be.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 20, 2011, 10:27:41 AM
But, Feodorovna,  David/Edward diid not  "be" anything, did he ?  Not a very productive life at all.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Alixz on August 20, 2011, 11:07:29 AM
Robert - I was thinking that, but you put it very well.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 20, 2011, 11:32:29 AM
Pretty much the same with Wallis.   She may have just been born to be a "society hostess" or whatever she was. She was not involved in any  charities that I have read of. Just a hedonistic life of travel, nightclubs and dinner parties. Oh, and shopping, of course.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 20, 2011, 12:35:15 PM
Pretty much the same with Wallis.   She may have just been born to be a "society hostess" or whatever she was. She was not involved in any  charities that I have read of. Just a hedonistic life of travel, nightclubs and dinner parties. Oh, and shopping, of course.

...so true Robert!......you could also add biterness & bitching about the in-laws who where worth a hundred of them!!!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 20, 2011, 12:40:47 PM
Good point, Eddie.  I might ask, though, was she so offended about their treatment towards her, or towards her husband ? After all, she was really content to be the King's  ding-a-long,.rather than his wife.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 20, 2011, 12:56:36 PM
Her primarily! She was to selfish and status conscious and got used to being spoilt by the Duke! As for the Duke he was far to selfish & spoilt, he wasn't used to not having his own way & I don't think he could except that his wife never got her HRH! Of course they saw themselves as the victims didn't they? Never mind anyone else, they couldn't have cared less about the impact on poor George VI & Queen Mary. I mean as if GVI didn't have enough on his plate with WWII and all and there's his brother winging about his wife's title!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 20, 2011, 01:15:58 PM
 A bit harsh, Eddie, but I  must agree. IMO, they wanted and expected the privilege and got it,  but not the responsibility, which was either never offered  or, when it was, they avoided [Bahamas]
 In the end, perhaps  Wallis tried to make amends by giving her jewelry collection   for and AIDS research institution, but even then, was that her, or Maitre Blum who instigated it ?
I do not hate the woman,  I just do not like her very much. She had manipulative talents. I give her credit for that.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: feodorovna on August 20, 2011, 02:57:12 PM
To all of you who responded, the point I was trying (badly) to make was that David was incapable of anything much. I think that Wallis did her best but a silk purse from a pig's ear is impossible to make!!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Alixz on August 20, 2011, 11:30:06 PM
I don't think that Wallis cared very much who or what David became after she married him.  They say she didn't want to be queen, but she didn't plan on 30 plus years of living on the "outside".

I read that on one visit to Canada, David put up a stink about Wallis not being called HRH.  I don't know who it meant more to but it did seem to mean a lot to him.

The one thing that she couldn't avoid though was the marriage after the abdication.  It would have been unthinkable for her to leave him after he gave up the throne for her.  Living on the "outside" with him was better than being shunned for leaving him.

I am looking forward to Greg's book.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: feodorovna on August 21, 2011, 03:42:08 AM
I read somewhere that his first words to her, every morning, were "What am I doing today?"!!! How that must have irritated over time, but the whole of his official life as PoW and briefly, King had been organized and directed. For a while, being free of it may have been a similar feeling to that of being on holiday but when he finally realized that this was going to be his life from now on it could have been something of a shock. The possibilities for him to take up worthwhile and fulfilling causes must have been endless, instead, he chose to irritate his brother, toddle around behind Wallis on endless shopping trips and take holidays-did it become more and more difficult to keep up the pretence of "Isn't life wonderful?" Perhaps he would have been more inclined to usefullness had Wallis not been denied HRH-I think it unlikely-it was convenient to put the blame for his indolence on his brothers' refusal to find him enployment.
I am experiencing some sympathy for Wallis. At times she must have yearned for the comparative freedom that marriage with Ernest gave her instead of which she was tied to a man who required her constant attendance. I wonder, did she ever look in a mirror and ask herself "How the hell did I get here?"
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 21, 2011, 03:53:46 AM
Oh I am sure Windsors had there good points too, a one time personal assistant to the Duke of Windsor passed away earlier this month and her obituary mentioned that the Duke & Duchess treated there staff ver nicely, which is so important I always think! And they looked after there dogs well :) That's all I can think of at the moment.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on August 21, 2011, 07:09:46 AM
Their dogs were abominably spoilt (and insanitary, according to Greg King!)

As I read his introduction, King explicitly set out to write a favourable biography of the Duchess, which worries me. What I would have hoped for was a 'balanced' biography.

I don't think either of the Windsors realised what a shock they had caused to the monarchy, and that they were going to have to keep a low profile and 'earn' a return. As it was, they didn't, and, as someone mentions above, George VI had far more important things on his mind in the midst of WW2 than his brother's constant complaints about his wife being 'denied' HRH.

Incidentally, there is quite an interesting article by Ms Sebba in today's Sunday Telegraph about the 1936 divorce. Certainly the person who comes best out of the whole business is Ernest Simpson! It sounds as though he was something of a snob and social climber but otherwise a decent person. I note that he married Wallis in Coldstream Guards full dress (the picture has come out blue instead of red!) - he had served with them in WW1, but was he actually on the reserve at the time he married? For non-British readers, the Coldstream are a classy regiment to end all classy regiments, with a certain mystique because they don't seek publicity.

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 21, 2011, 07:18:55 AM
Their dogs were abominably spoilt (and insanitary, according to Greg King!)

lol, I can imagine! But anyone who is kind to animals cant' be all bad in my opinion! And pugs are soooooo cute!!!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Alixz on August 21, 2011, 10:29:50 AM
The constant badgering for the HRH must have been insufferable as the war raged and George VI (who truly had no designs or ambition to the wear a crown) did his brother's job.  He did it well.

I have read that Queen Elizabeth II has never forgiven the Duke of Windsor for what she considered her father's "early" death from the stress the Duke caused by his abdication and the additional stress of being king.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 21, 2011, 12:23:39 PM
Alixz, that was supposedly the stance taken by the late Queen Mother. So, if QEII also shared that opinion, it came from her mother.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Janet Ashton on August 21, 2011, 01:09:12 PM


As I read his introduction, King explicitly set out to write a favourable biography of the Duchess, which worries me. What I would have hoped for was a 'balanced' biography.

This is not quite what he says, with its implication of intentional bias.. In the years before starting the book, considering events and evidence, he formed a more favourable view of both the Duke and Duchess than he had hitherto held, and thus he set out to put this down to provide balance in the portrayal of her. He is clear that he had no intention of writing the definitive biography. An honest statement of a book's scope and intention is not something that should "worry" anyone; and you can take his evidence along with anyone else's in forming your own view. A book like this, written by someone who approached the topic cooly and analytically, with no personal emotional investment in it, is actually the sort of biography readers should greatly value. Most of the rest are biased in the extreme, whether they declare it or not, from the nonsense written by people like Charles Higham (sheer common sense dictates that this can't all be true) to Hugo Vickers recent (pro-Wallis) book, in which he implies that he had an obsession with the Duchess from an early age. In talking about his book HV is very wry and funny, but he still seems to go out of his way to present himself as a stalker!!

Anyhow - I don't mean to sound touchy - I have no particular investment in what people think of wallis (though incline to feel that she was more sinned against than sinning); I am a little sensitive about Greg King!
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on August 21, 2011, 01:15:13 PM
Greg King's book is the only one I have actually read about the Duchess herself, so I can't comment on the others.

I was very impressed with Philip Ziegler's official biography of the Duke - now writing that must have been a thankless task!

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 21, 2011, 01:38:22 PM
There most be dozens of books  about the Windsor couple. I alone have 14 with 2 more on the way. No two viewpoints are the same, but I get the impression that there are more "con"  ones than "pros".
 As I see it, Wallis did  the UK a favour by taking Edward VIII off the scene. The consensus seems to be  he would have been a fairly bad monarch, verging on obstructionism.   On the other side, I resent their luxury lifestyle  while so many around them were suffering.  The Nazis even protected their property when they fled France.
 There is another version of the Queen Mary story BTW;  it seems the Cunard crew had expressed objection to the vast amounts of [Louis Vuitton, no doubt] luggage they carried with them. Storage problem or some such.  Wallis retorted  they could take their business to   a rival line and they would reap the publicity. Apparently Cunard back down.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Alixz on August 21, 2011, 03:25:18 PM
No matter how one tries, Wallis comes off as unlikable.  Even the Cunard story makes her seem petty and narrow.

I do think that it was a good thing that Edward VIII was not on the throne of England (unless married to Olga Nikolaevna) during WWII.  I think he would have lived up to the reputation of "liking" the German approach.  I do believe that Wallis was a friend of von Ribbentrop and no one needed that man too close to a weak king.

I don't remember where I read it, but I also read that Edward/David was not a particularly good lover and that was why he went from mistress to mistress.  Each had a way of making him feel like a "whole" person and they did tend to call him the "little man" even before Wallis came on the scene.

Wallis was instructed to "take care of the little man" for his last mistress because she had to be out of the country for some reason.  Take care of him, is exactly what she did.

I have the video version with Edward Herman and Jane Seymour and in that one, Wallis is said to have been in love with "David the man, not David the king."  Perhaps that was true but she is still hard to take no matter what light one puts on her.

I always liked her saying that "one can never be too rich or too thin", if that is the true saying.  However, I never have been able to accomplish either.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Vecchiolarry on August 21, 2011, 11:41:29 PM
Hi,

Poor old Wallis - she does seem to be dragged through the greasy spit of scandal by nearly everybody who writes or discusses her....
I'm kind of happy to hear that Greg King and Hugo Vickers have shone a more favourable light on her.  No one can be all good or all bad and she just seems to have survived either dithering or conniving through life.
She did well for herself in the long haul but ended badly in dementia.  I do feel sorry for her for that.

The lady who asked Wallis to "look after the little man" was Thelma Furness, who in 1934 returned to the USA to support her twin sister in a child custudy battle - the "Little Gloria Case".......

Larry
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Vecchiolarry on August 21, 2011, 11:51:14 PM
Hi Robert,

OFF TOPIC:
I had a good laugh when reading what you wrote about Wallis and her luggage on the Queen Mary - -...

My grandmother and I travelled several times on the Queen Mary between 1946 and 1957 and she usually brought on board 17 steamer trunks and then my luggage too.  She did pay extra but the crew always grumbled and then she sent them a couple of bottles of champagne.
Once when traveliing with Dolores Gray on board, my grandmother was telling about the arrangement she had with her 17 trunks and the crew.  Dolores Gray piped up, "Oh, I have 19 steamer trunks on board!"  My grandmother didn't speak to Dolores ever again.
I, however, became a great friend to Miss Gray and saw her often in NYC over the years...

Now back to the Windsors.......

Larry
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: feodorovna on August 22, 2011, 03:09:07 AM
I think when Wallis was first aware of David's interest she probably felt "Well look at me now, little Wallis Warfield who lived on Uncle Sol's charity and whose mother sewed for money, being escorted to grand places by THE PRINCE of WALES" - what woman would not have thought along similar lines?-she may not even have liked him but I imaginge she felt sorry for him later. I think it possible that she saw each meeting as being the last and by the time it dawned on her that he was serious, it was too late, she was stuck with him.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: Kalafrana on August 22, 2011, 03:20:16 AM
Off topic

Larry
I'm agog to know what was in your grandmother's 17 steamer trunks and how long your grandmother was actually away for! Just for comparison's sake, I went to university with my father's uniform tin trunk and one suitcase - entirely normal for a student, and that included blankets.


Back on topic

Wallis may have been a poor relation, but during her adult life there was always SOME money. It is noticeable in Greg King's book that even at the lowest point in her fortunes she never had to take a job, unlike her mother, and her Aunt Bessie and others were prepared to take her on lengthy trips to Europe.

Ann
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 22, 2011, 09:38:53 AM
Whilst I have said that I don't believe Wallis wanted marriage with David, the irony is that I also believe her to have been the only woman suitable to be his wife. My reasons for this are as follows. The influential women in his early life had dominated him and gaining their approval required certain behavioural patterns. His nurse would pinch him just prior to handing him to his mother for his daily visit with her and Queen Mary, who had little understanding of small children, was so irritated by his crying that she handed him straight back into the arms of his mentally unstable nurse who was so obsessed with him that she both neglected and starved little brother, Bertie. It was many months before her behaviour was discovered and she was sacked but the damage had been done. In adulthood David would look for, indeed he would probably NEED, a strong, dominant woman to whom he could be subservient. To find that woman in the form of a nice, wellbred "gel" from the aristocracy would have been next to impossible as by nature they showed deference to Royalty. The demure "Miss" who allowed him to speak first and hung on his every word would have had nothing about her to attract him. Wallis, on the other hand, whilst behaving correctly, lacked that formal deference and when she addressed him I feel that the requisite "Sir" was a last minute add on. She was probably the only woman in the world to treat him like any other man and that made her the one woman he could look up to.

Charlotte Zeepvat seems to have debunked much of the mistreating nanny tale (given out by David) in either a Royalty Digest article or Cradle to the Crown, I can't remember which. Basically by going over employment records and other documents, she was able to prove that the 'mentally unstable' nanny didn't exist.
Title: Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 22, 2011, 09:53:20 AM
From the Daily Mail:

"The need to ‘keep Ernest in good humour’, she told her aunt Bessie Merryman in a letter, was critical. ‘At the moment, he’s flattered with it all and lets me dine once a week with the prince alone. It all takes a certain amount of tact.’Reassuringly, she added: ‘I think I do amuse. I’m the comedy relief and we like to dance together but I always have Ernest hanging around my neck so all is safe.’...She knew she wasn’t in love with Edward — so why didn’t she step back then? The truth is that she was still convinced that the affair would soon end, and that Ernest loved her enough to resume where they’d left off... Yet she worried about Ernest endlessly, describing him to her aunt Bessie at this point as ‘still the man of my dreams.’...Exhausted, frustrated and even angry, she had just one thing on her mind: she wanted to get Ernest back.

He was now, however, far less pliant. This was at least partly because Wallis had invited her old schoolfriend Mary Kirk over from America to keep Ernest company while she dallied with the King —and her plan had backfired spectacularly. Mary had fallen in love with Ernest — and Wallis was deeply hurt. In a showdown with her friend, she accused her to her face of stealing her husband. Mary promptly packed her bags and moved into a hotel — but she carried on seeing Ernest, and later married him....Laid low by a cold as she read lurid details about herself in the press, Wallis made a belated attempt to break with the King. The time had come for her to return to Ernest and the ‘calm, congenial’ life he offered, she told him, ‘where it all runs smoothly and no nerve strain. ‘True we are poor and unable to do the attractive amusing things in life which I must confess I do love and enjoy. I am sure you and I would only create disaster together.’ The King’s response was to threaten to kill himself. From then on, there was a painful inexorability to Wallis’s fate, as she was carried forward, more or less unwillingly, by his alternating threats, blandishments and jewels. But, as her previously unpublished letters to Ernest reveal, she deeply regretted the loss of her husband. ‘I wake up in the night sometimes and I think I must be lying on that strange chaise longue and hear your footsteps coming down the passage of the flat and there you are with the Evening Standard under your arm!’ she wrote to him. ‘I can’t believe that such a thing could have happened to two people who got along so well.’ She poked fun at the King, calling him Peter Pan — the child who never grew up. And, in another letter, she complained of loneliness. The security that Ernest had offered her suddenly seemed extraordinarily appealing compared with the hate and loathing she increasingly had to face as Edward’s lover."

"Her affair with Edward, however, eventually spiralled beyond even her control. Not because she was passionately in love with him — but because her desperate pleas to be released were met with emotional blackmail. If she tried to leave him, the prince told her, he would either kill himself or pursue her to the ends of the earth. In the end, Wallis had little choice. But even after she married him and became the Duchess of Windsor, she never lost her affection for Ernest Simpson, her beloved second husband.
Significantly, she kept writing to him. And these intimate letters, which have only recently come to light, reveal that even when the world imagined that Wallis