Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => French Royals => Topic started by: Dmitry Russian on August 06, 2006, 10:40:37 PM

Title: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 06, 2006, 10:40:37 PM
Excuse me, but somebody has photos of Luis Alfonso and its wive Maria Margarita?
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: britt.25 on August 12, 2006, 10:51:21 AM


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/Louis20.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/louisbourbon1974-2.jpg)



(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/b-kings1.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/05c74_DL112059_007.jpg)


....But do not forget that he is a cousin of Charles Napoleon!!! ;D He has many same ansistors ;D
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Lucien on March 06, 2007, 01:10:51 PM
The couple are the happy parents of a baby girl,Eugenia.



 
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Dmitry Russian on March 06, 2007, 04:51:19 PM
Oh, I so am glad! I hope, the future Louis XXI will be born by 2010!!!  :)
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Yseult on March 06, 2007, 05:40:15 PM
Oh, I so am glad! I hope, the future Louis XXI will be born by 2010!!!  :)

Congratulations!  ::)
But...are you sure do you want Luis Alfonso as your king? Think about the Queen Mother Carmencita... :P And the grand-mother Emanuella...too much!!
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Dmitry Russian on March 07, 2007, 06:05:21 PM
Yes, I would like to see this fine prince and its charming wife king and queen of France.
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: britt.25 on March 08, 2007, 02:50:35 AM
Rather impossible and even if so, they would only have representative functions, like the Bonapartes...Sorry to say that. :-[ :-\
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: britt.25 on March 22, 2007, 02:00:57 AM
It´s sweet. It´s a girl? She comes a lot after the mother, especially on the big picture, we´ll wait how it will be later.  :D Congratulation to the parents! They look very happy! ;)

Do you know, where they exactly live? Is it their chateau, what we see?
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Yseult on March 22, 2007, 05:46:44 AM
It´s sweet. It´s a girl? She comes a lot after the mother, especially on the big picture, we´ll wait how it will be later.  :D Congratulation to the parents! They look very happy! ;)

Do you know, where they exactly live? Is it their chateau, what we see?

No, Britt. If I´m not wrong, these pictures were taken in the house that Maria Margarita´s parents own in Palm Beach, Florida. Remember the baby was born there. In a few weeks, the couple, with the little one, will return to their home in Venezuela.
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Dmitry Russian on June 18, 2007, 06:56:09 PM
I am sorry, but I have some questions.
Have you such an idea as a morganatic marriage?
It seems that you have not such an idea as a morganatic marriage.
The morganatic marriage is a misalliance or an unequal marriage.
The morganatic marriage is the marriage of princes of royal blood or aristocrats and girls who come from simpler and modest families. Let’s consider a genealogy of Prince Luis Alfonso de Bourbon who is legitimist pretender to the French throne. His great grandfather, Spanish King Alfonso XIII, was married to English Queen Victoria’s granddaughter. I think that their marriage was equal. One from their sons and grandfather of Luis Alfonso, Don Jaime, has married Elisabeth Dampier. Elisabeth Dampier was a daughter of the French nobleman. But has she got any royal blood? Is their marriage equal or morganatic? At last, the son of this prince and Elisabeth Dampier, Don Alfonso de Bourbon, was married to the granddaughter of Generalissimo Franco. The granddaughter of Generalissimo Franco was not a princess of royal blood, too. Was the marriage of Don Alfonso de Bourbon and Generalissimo Franco’s granddaughter equal or morganatic? Finally, himself Luis Alfonso de Bourbon married the daughter of the Latino American millionaire. Is this marriage equal or morganatic? What is the conclusion? Luis Alfonso has a royal father, a grandfather and a great grandfather, but he also has a morganatic grandmother, a mother and a wife. So I have a question. Can the man who has the closest and morganatic relations claim the French throne?

Still I would do a little remark concerning the present descendants of the Russian Imperial family. I have an acquaintance with one Russian monarchist from very serious monarchist organization. This monarchist told me that all descendants of the Russian Imperial family are morganatic now. So they cannot claim the Russian Imperial Throne.
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Lucien on June 19, 2007, 02:29:40 AM
I am sorry, but I have some questions.
Have you such an idea as a morganatic marriage?
It seems that you have not such an idea as a morganatic marriage.
The morganatic marriage is a misalliance or an unequal marriage.
The morganatic marriage is the marriage of princes of royal blood or aristocrats and girls who come from simpler and modest families. Let’s consider a genealogy of Prince Luis Alfonso de Bourbon who is legitimist pretender to the French throne. His great grandfather, Spanish King Alfonso XIII, was married to English Queen Victoria’s granddaughter. I think that their marriage was equal. One from their sons and grandfather of Luis Alfonso, Don Jaime, has married Elisabeth Dampier. Elisabeth Dampier was a daughter of the French nobleman. But has she got any royal blood? Is their marriage equal or morganatic? At last, the son of this prince and Elisabeth Dampier, Don Alfonso de Bourbon, was married to the granddaughter of Generalissimo Franco. The granddaughter of Generalissimo Franco was not a princess of royal blood, too. Was the marriage of Don Alfonso de Bourbon and Generalissimo Franco’s granddaughter equal or morganatic? Finally, himself Luis Alfonso de Bourbon married the daughter of the Latino American millionaire. Is this marriage equal or morganatic? What is the conclusion? Luis Alfonso has a royal father, a grandfather and a great grandfather, but he also has a morganatic grandmother, a mother and a wife. So I have a question. Can the man who has the closest and morganatic relations claim the French throne?

Still I would do a little remark concerning the present descendants of the Russian Imperial family. I have an acquaintance with one Russian monarchist from very serious monarchist organization. This monarchist told me that all descendants of the Russian Imperial family are morganatic now. So they cannot claim the Russian Imperial Throne.

Your post is rambling,as usual.I'm surprised they let people on the pc's in asylums these days.
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: umigon on June 19, 2007, 03:41:43 AM


Both Emanuela (and not Elisabeth) de Dampierre and Carmen Martínez-Bordiú have been seen as unequal wives by the traditional Spanish laws of Succession, which are no longer standing as valid, although they were still running the family when both Alfonso de Borbón y Dampierre and his son Luis Alfonso were born.

However, as far as I know, there's not a specific rule for the French Royal Family in what refers to morganatic marriages (remember Louis XIV and Madame de Maintenon and the Grand Dauphin and Emilie Joly de Choin). So, I guess that given that renunciations are sometimes politically based and not totally decisive (remember that we're talking about the rights that Felipe V might have transmitted; Felipe! the same one whose grandmother María Teresa and great-grandmother Ana had also renounced to their rights for the Spanish Succession for them and their descendants!!), Luis Alfonso does have the better claim to the French throne. Although the possibilities of a restoration of the monarchy in France are non-existent.
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Dmitry Russian on June 24, 2007, 03:52:17 PM
Have the French laws of the succession to the throne got such a specific idea as a morganatic marriage? I read that the heir to the French throne must have Roman Catholic parents and must be born in France. Is it correct? If the French legitimists have not such an idea as a morganatic marriage, why madame de Montespan or marquise de Pompadour become not French queens, but the Spanish and Austrian princesses become wives of the French kings?
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: tecklenburg on October 12, 2008, 02:04:27 AM
Hello everybody !

I got one question, maybe you could help me.
I read that Alphonse de Bourbon or Alfonso de Borbon (I never know how to write him arghh it's terrible...)
was engaged to Erzherzogin Constanza von Österreich, Prinzessin von Ungarn, granddaughter of the late Kaiser & König Karl I (IV) &  Zita
Is it true ?
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Yseult on October 12, 2008, 04:54:08 AM
Yes. I remember it was a great surprise. A very well-known spanish magazine published as an exclusive after the tragical death of the duke of Cadiz that Alfonso was to marry Constanza of Habsburg. Almost everyone was shocked...after his divorce from Carmen Martínez Bordiu, Alfonso had a long standing relationship with an actress named Mirta Miller (the real name of the woman is María Jovita Bungi Chatar). Later in time, when Mirta was sejourning at her native country, Argentina, Alfonso had another short relationship with the french noblewoman Anne Laure de Bourbon-Busset, but the romance ended when a spanish photographer obtained some pictures of the bride to be of Alfonso, Anne Laure, with another man, and Alfonso returned to the arms of Mirta Miller. No one here expected the duke being secretly engaged to an austrian archduchess...
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: tecklenburg on October 12, 2008, 09:17:41 AM
Thanks Yseult :-)

Have you got some pictures showing Duque d'Anjou & Cadiz with Erzherzogin Constanza ?
It must have been terrible for her at Alfonso/Alphonse 's death. Has she kept contacts with the actual Duque d'Anjou?
I remember her on a picture at St denis when Louis XVII's heart was back. I may be wrong but I remember a picture of her, but where?
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Yseult on October 12, 2008, 10:46:10 AM
No, I don´t have such a picture. But if I find any, I´ll post it.
About the second question you put, yes, Constanza keep contacts with the son of Alfonso. If I´m not wrong, Constanza and her husband were invited when Luis Alfonso married Margarita...
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: REMI on October 12, 2008, 11:56:08 AM
In his book:" Los Borbones incomodos"(2000), Juan BALANSO published a photo showing Duke of  Cadiz with Archduchess Constanza. In the same book, Balanso writes: "Una mujer enlutada sollozaba en los funerales del Duque de Cadiz: era l'archiduquesa Constanza de Austria".
The translation would be:" A woman mourning was in tears at funeral of the Duke of Cadiz: it was Archduchess of Austria Constanza".

REMI
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: REMI on October 12, 2008, 12:17:03 PM
Add that Luis Alfonso de Borbon was Constanza's godfather at her marriage with Franz Joseph von Auerspeg.

REMI
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: tecklenburg on October 12, 2008, 01:00:47 PM
Wow big thanks Remi & Yseult
what a nice attention from the young prince to Constanza...admirable.
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: tecklenburg on November 16, 2008, 02:27:10 PM
Hi everybody !

I found a picture on website http://www.noblesseetroyautes.com/nr01/
showing the princess of Auesperg Trautson (born Konstanza, Erzherzogin von Österreich, Prinzessin von Ungarn) with Duchess of Segovia & the royal family
how faithfull these people are through all heir sorows ! wow
The prince must be very king hearted toward the princess his wife to take part to Bourbon's events, wow
They should be given some title by the Duke of Anjou for everything ! This would be my small suggestion
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Lucien on May 29, 2010, 10:00:05 AM
HRH Prince Louis Alfonso,legitimate claimant to the Throne of France,became a father of twins yesterday:
Louis,entitled Duc de Bourgogne and Alphonse,Duc de Berry.

The twins were born in NYC.
Title: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Lucien on May 13, 2012, 11:39:10 PM
The Dowager Duchess 'd-Anjou,Victoire Jeanne Joséphine Emmanuelle Pierre Marie de Dampierre,passed away aged 98 at the Palazzo Massimo,Rome.The Dowager Duchess was the grandmother of HRH The Duke 'dAnjou.
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Gabriel Antonio on October 12, 2013, 10:39:38 PM
HRH Prince Louis Alfonso,legitimate claimant to the Throne of France,became a father of twins yesterday:
Louis,entitled Duc de Bourgogne and Alphonse,Duc de Berry.

The twins were born in NYC.

Are the titles for these children considered "legal" in any way, or are they considered private family titles of ancestors which can be used by descendants? I mean no disrespect to anyone by asking this.
Also, am I correct King Juan Carlos of Spain does not like these titles being used by his cousin's family, along with the title Louis XX?
The last Duc de Bourgogne I know of was the oldest grandson of Louis XV, Louis (1751-1761.) And, before that, Louis XV's father Louis (1682-1712)
The last Duc de Berry I know of was Charles Ferdinand (1778-1820) the younger of two sons of Charles X, King of France. And, before that, Louis XVI was known as the Duc de Berry from his birth in 1754 to his ascension as king in 1774.
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Превед on October 13, 2013, 03:24:59 AM
Are the titles for these children considered "legal" in any way, or are they considered private family titles of ancestors which can be used by descendants?

In French law they are treated like family heirlooms, for practical purposes accessories to surnames, which enjoy a certain legal protection. Which means that these dukes can sue you in French courts if you start calling yourself Duc d'Anjou, Berry, Bourgogne etc., the courts will find in their favour and may punish you. The general consensus is that the French Republic has abolished nobility, but not noble titles. So it's quite similar to the modern German custom, where titles are just surnames, though the system is less streamlined in France, where the original rules as to inheritance and use apply, something which also seems to avoid the abuses (by dubious adult adoptees and divorcé(e)s) seen in the German system.

See heraldist François Velde's excellent explanation. (http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/noblesse.htm#Name)
Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Gabriel Antonio on October 13, 2013, 12:03:29 PM
Thank you. (I cannot use your name because I do not know the Cyrillic alphabet. Excuse me.)
I appreciate your explanation, and also the link you kindly provided to heraldist Velde's explanation- which is very interesting, detailed and fascinating to read through the historical periods in French history.

The questions/comments I ask next are made with respect to everyone in these families, currently living or not, including Louis Alphonse's immediate family members who tragically died in the 1980s.
 My follow up questions are (for anyone to respond)
Prior to these twin boys born in 2010, have these titles been used "legally" by anyone, Duc de Bourgogne after 1761 to 2010, and Duc de Berry after 1820 to 2010?
Are the legalities of these titles why Louis d"Orleans (1773 -1850) King of the French from 1830 to 1848 and head of the Junior Orleans branch (this is what I had always thought it was called) of the French royal family, did not give titles to his several sons born between 1810 and 1824 the Senior French branch of the Bourbon dynasty had been using prior to 1789? If I am wrong and these titles have been used- please correct me.
For example, Louis Alphonse's title Anjou, and those he has designated for his sons born in 2010; I do not believe these have been used for many, many years. Another example-wasn't Louis XVII the Duc de Normandy from 1785 to 1793 and this title of the last French Bourbon son born prior to 1789 has not been used since?

Could any grandsons, great grandsons, etc. of King Juan Carlos of Spain descended through his son also be given these titles if someone currently alive is not using them? It seems to me they could, considering Louis Alphonse's title and those given to his twin sons.

 I am not trying to create a debate here- (instead, a discussion) but I believe there are those who may consider Louis Alphonse, Duc de Anjou (interesting this was also the title of the first French born Bourbon King of Spain in 1700) a member of the Spanish royal family (descended from Phillip V up to Alphonso XIII as is King Juan Carlos- if I am wrong please correct me) and not of the deposed French royal family. Or, there are those, despite the renunciation by Phillip in 1700 to the French throne,  who may consider the entire Spanish royal family (since the Senior French branch descended from Phillip's older brother- Louis, Duc de Bourgogne- died out out in 1883) also the deposed Senior French royal family as they are all descended from Louis XIV through his second grandson Phillip V while the Orleans branch are descended first from Louis XIV's younger brother. (I know they are also descended from Louis XIV through his legitimized daughter in the next generation.)
If anyone is asking what point I am trying to make here-
I am wondering how these possible differing (legal) opinions regarding persons being considered descendants of French and/or Spanish (from French) Bourbon Royalty relates to the potential legalities of these ancient and revered titles being used in the 21st century.




Title: Re: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)
Post by: Превед on October 13, 2013, 12:38:36 PM
Thank you. (I cannot use your name because I do not know the Cyrillic alphabet. Excuse me.)
That's all right. It transcibes as Prived, a Russian Internet meme.

As regards your further questions, the Orléanist claimants traditionally only use titles that have been linked with the Duchy of Orleans. The Legitimst claimants have traditionally used Spanish titles, because they played a more prominent role as Carlist claimants. A notable break with this happened when the current Orléanist pretender, the Count of Paris, made his nephew Duc d'Anjou in 2004. BTW the current Legitimist pretender's father was titled Duc de Bourgogne, the same as his infant grandson.

François Velde has lots of info about this too. (http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/)