Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Having Fun! => Topic started by: Caleb on October 01, 2006, 09:52:25 PM

Title: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Caleb on October 01, 2006, 09:52:25 PM
Do you think that names can affect who a person can be when they get older? Personally, I think they can. I can just imagine how a girl I heard about felt, being named "Enough." Then again there are names that you associate with certain people. For example, I associate anybody named "Carrie" with my aunt-by-marriage, or "Audrey", with my Aunt Carrie's sister, who's a farmer's wife in rural Rock Island County, Illinois. Even historically, I can associate names with people. I usually associate the name "Alexander", as someone being tough, like Czar Alexander III. How about you?
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Taren on October 01, 2006, 10:57:02 PM
John Stossel on 20/20 did a report a few weeks ago that said a person's name influenced their career. He said most Dennis' become dentists and Georges become geologists. Also, that you tend to be interested in those with names similar to yours: like Paris Hilton and Paris Latsis or Tom Cruise and Penelope Cruz. Considering neither couple is together anymore, I wouldn't put much stock in that.

My name, often misspelled and mispronounced, makes me want to give any future children of my own something easy to spell and pronounce. I definitely think people associate certain names with people that they're familiar with, either personally or through reading. A lifelong favorite name of mine is Elizabeth, because of the positive connotation to the many great Elizabeths, past and present. I consider Angelina to be a nice name, but it makes me think of homewreckers.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Prince_Christopher on October 02, 2006, 06:19:55 AM
I agree with you, Caleb, names can make a big difference in a person's life. 

One of my pet peeves is parents who give their children self-created, wierd names.  Or parents who give their children regular names but spell them wrong, or parents who name their child a diminutive, such as naming a child "Bobby" or "Bettie" instead of Robert or Elizabeth.

There are thousands of beautiful names out there, all a person has to do is look.  There are enough names out there for parents to be original and creative, without having to makeup or misspell a name.  Going through life is hard enough without a person being saddled with a misspelled name or having to constantly reapeat one's name for others.  Names from history or mythology are great, I can even deal with nature names, but as an elementary teacher, I can say that I've seen many unfortunate choices.

Sometimes I don't know what these parents are thinking.  I guess they think it's "cute", but giving a child a handle that makes no sense is ridiculous.  Names should have a meaning, either in the history of the name itself, or because it comes from a special person who is remembered by giving that name. 

Really, there should be laws governing naming of children....
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Prince_Lieven on October 02, 2006, 09:34:32 AM
I agree, I'm not a fan of 'makey-uppy' names. I think it's cruel to saddle a child with a ridiculous name like (for example) 'Brooklyn'.  :P
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Ortino on October 02, 2006, 10:36:13 AM
I HATE how parents try and alter common names in order to make them more "unique." Ashley, Ashleigh, Ashlee.....Brittany, Britany, Brittanie.... good grief! In fact, I hate common names in general. There's no reason to have three or four Ashleys or Johns in one class.

I also dislike very odd names, particularly those of celebrities.... Moses, Apple, Suri, Coco....  They may sound cute on kids, but what happens when they grow up?!

I think that children can have more unique names like Rowan, Blaise, Harper, Terence etc. without suffering for it, but parents should take care to name their kids something appropriate.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Sarushka on October 02, 2006, 11:00:21 AM
The book Freakonomics (http://www.amazon.com/Freakonomics-Rev-Economist-Explores-Everything/dp/0061234001/ref=ed_oe_h/104-9605731-7136755?ie=UTF8) has a very interesting chapter on this very subject -- check it out!  ;)

In short, his theory is that parents' socio-economic status plays a significant role in the names they choose for their children. So in reality, it's the children's socio-economic background, not the connotations of their goofy name, that most reliably predicts their future and/or holds them back.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Raegan on October 02, 2006, 11:07:27 AM
I hated my name when I was growing up. I wanted a "normal" name, like Jessica or Emily. However, now that I'm grown, I have become very fond of Raegan and I wouldn't change it for anything. I have heard more and more parents name their babies Raegan/Reagan in recent years, and I fear that it will become common sometime down the road. This upsets me because now I want the name to stay somewhat unique.

I love Russian names (like Tatiana, Alexei and Natasha) as well as "classic" names, such as Elizabeth and Katherine. One thing is for sure, no child of mine will be named after a fruit!

Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: CelticTomboy on October 02, 2006, 11:47:26 AM
I was the same way. I have a very common name, Chrysteene... but obviously it isn't spelt the "normal" way. I don't mind that it is spelt the way it is... especially considering that 6 of my 7 siblings have common names but theirs are also spelt differently. I wouldn't name any of my children any of the new celebrity names, like Apple, but I see nothing wrong with being creative with the spelling of your child's name, unless there is some uncertainty of what their name is.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: imperial angel on October 02, 2006, 11:51:24 AM
I think names can become an important part of a person's identity, certainly. I think if you have a name that doesn't suit you, that you are just not that name, then that is wrong. Often, parents choose whatever name is fashionable at the time, thus stamping you with the decade that you were born in, and little individuality. It not only sounds dated, but there are plenty more out there with the same name. So, you can't really be unique having that name, and most likely it doesn't suit you. Personally, I like Victorian names popular from the 1870s through the teens of the 20th century. My name, Grace was popular from the 1870s through the '20s. I like to have a name from that era, although when I was born ( the '80s), it wasn't used. It has been in the past six/seven years more. I also like foreign names sometimes, especially Russian names despite having no family background there. I don't much like Russian male names, but I like Russian female ones. Irina is much more elegant than Irene to me. Often these days, parents try to be too trendy naming their children, although the full effects of this is never known until those children have to dal with the issue in adulthood.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Prince_Lieven on October 02, 2006, 02:06:07 PM
I hated my name when I was growing up. I wanted a "normal" name, like Jessica or Emily. However, now that I'm grown, I have become very fond of Raegan and I wouldn't change it for anything. I have heard more and more parents name their babies Raegan/Reagan in recent years, and I fear that it will become common sometime down the road. This upsets me because now I want the name to stay somewhat unique.

I love Russian names (like Tatiana, Alexei and Natasha) as well as "classic" names, such as Elizabeth and Katherine. One thing is for sure, no child of mine will be named after a fruit!



I know what you mean - I have an aunt called Marie who has always pronounced her name 'MAR-ee' rather than the more usual 'mar-EE'. She used to hate it because people mixed it up so often, but now she likes it because it's unique.

I used to dislike my name because no other young people had it. Now, though, it's apparently quite popuar for babies, especially in England.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: emeraldeyes on October 02, 2006, 03:34:43 PM
It's quite popular here in Canada as well.   :)


Personally, I dislike the way people are mis-spelling names in an attempt to be creative.  I often find myself wondering if the person just doesn't know how to spell it properly. 

Then there's this little gem: http://www.wallace.net/sheep/legal/phph.html (http://www.wallace.net/sheep/legal/phph.html)


And am I the only one here who thinks it is incredible that Condoleezza Rice has managed to overcome her name?  She has accomplished so much in her life- but I'm betting there aren't many parents naming daughters after her!

Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Margarita Markovna on October 02, 2006, 04:16:35 PM
tee hee http://www.notwithoutmyhandbag.com/babynames/index.html
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Justine on October 02, 2006, 04:41:59 PM
Oh thanks God in polish mis-speling name is almost impossible. But it annoy me very much when I see some names, i.e. in English and they mean same when speling this name is different. Sometimes I really don't know how to say that.
I hate when parents give some strange names. My parents were normal in that way but I didn't like my name much(Justine) in early years, and it wasn't popular name in 90's when I was born.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: emeraldeyes on October 02, 2006, 06:15:34 PM
Ritka, that link is hilarious!  I could only read hte first couple of pages cuz I'm trying to eat right now, and the lettuce keeps flying out of my mouth!

And Grand Duchess Ash, Justine is a beautiful name! :)

Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Prince_Christopher on October 02, 2006, 06:35:49 PM
I agree, I'm not a fan of 'makey-uppy' names. I think it's cruel to saddle a child with a ridiculous name like (for example) 'Brooklyn'.  :P

I hate this name, too.  There are two of them in the class next door to mine, one spelled Brooklyn and the other spelled Brookelin.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Taren on October 02, 2006, 06:41:39 PM
I agree, I'm not a fan of 'makey-uppy' names. I think it's cruel to saddle a child with a ridiculous name like (for example) 'Brooklyn'.  :P

Gee I wonder to whom you could be referring?  ;D

Celebrity baby names are the worst as far as "unique" names go. Pilot Inspektor? Moxie Crimefighter? Fifi Trixiebelle? On what planet would those names be considered tasteful? There's nothing wrong with having a normal name that doesn't stick out. Chances are your kid is going to be teased anyway, so why give the other children ammunition? This coming from someone whose first name is used by at least two porn stars....
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Prince_Christopher on October 02, 2006, 06:42:31 PM

And am I the only one here who thinks it is incredible that Condoleezza Rice has managed to overcome her name?  She has accomplished so much in her life- but I'm betting there aren't many parents naming daughters after her!



I read that Condi's parents, being musicians, named her after the Italian musical term "con dolcezza" meaning "with sweetness," which I think is ok, being that it reflected their love and profession.  However, the contrived spelling was not such a good idea, in my opinion.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: emeraldeyes on October 03, 2006, 01:29:06 PM
I read that Condi's parents, being musicians, named her after the Italian musical term "con dolcezza" meaning "with sweetness," which I think is ok, being that it reflected their love and profession.  However, the contrived spelling was not such a good idea, in my opinion.

I hadn't been aware of that, so I really thank you for pointing that out.  I will tell my husband (who is studying for his gr 9 piano) and that will be one Italian term he will always be able to remember.   ;)
I think 'Dolcezza' would be a lovely name on its own however, and when pronounced properly by a gentleman caller would be absolutely swoon-inducing.    ::)     

 Dol - chayzaaaahhh , mi amore... (faints)
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: imperial angel on October 04, 2006, 11:57:06 AM
Is anybody here just plain interested in names in general as I am? It doesn't have to be for any good reason, it can just be that you are interested.I am fascinated by names, especially Victorian ones. I like foreign names as well. I am interested in names, even more than their connotations.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 04, 2006, 05:26:52 PM
Dear Imperial Angel,

I am interested in onamastics* just as you are. Let me give you some examples of some Victorian names from my own family that now sound unusual:

Philomenia Catherina - my maternal grandmother's given names. Born 1888.

Georgius - My maternal grandfather's middle name. Born 1881.

Josephine - mother of Philomenia Catherina. Born 1856.


David

* Onamastics is the study of names and naming practices.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: grandduchessella on October 04, 2006, 06:27:48 PM
I enjoy onamastics (thank you for supplying the term, David) etymology and history of first names as well and just the plain old discussion of why a certain royal had his/her name.

My own great-grandmother was Josephine.  :)

When it came time to name my own children, I looked into our family trees but all the grandmothers have very 'grandmotherly' names--Florence, Shirley, Geraldine and Marion.

My husband always laughs at how I decide on the first and middle names. I like one or both to reflect our ethnic roots (Irish, Scottish, English, German), a family connection, our Catholic background (ie a Saint's name) and a historical and/or literary figure that I enjoy. It helps with narrowing it down some but I have enough names picked out for about 15 kids I  wish the old days of giving the kids more than 2 names was still commonplace.  :)
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 04, 2006, 08:12:26 PM
There is no rule against a third given name, so give your children three names. By the way my paternal grandmother was named Violet. Born 1899. This is not a very common name presently either.

Did you notice that the man who shot the Amish children yesterday had redundant first names, Charles Carl? Who is so stupid not to known that this is the same name in different languages both originating from the ancient name Carolus?

David
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: grandduchessella on October 04, 2006, 09:13:07 PM
Believe me, I considered going around the 'just 2 names' rule but I'm too hidebound, I suppose.  :)

I predict that Violet will undergo a renaissance in the next few years due to the fact that Ben Affleck & Jennifer Garner picked it for their baby--I think it was one of their grandmother's names. Celebrity has that affect--especially if the moniker isn't too out-there. I don't foresee a boom in the name Pilot Inspektor or Moxie Crimefighter--and the fact that I know which celebrities those children belong to is rather disturbing.  ;)
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Caleb on October 04, 2006, 09:24:50 PM
My sister & brother-in-law (Chris & Audrey Hohenboken) chose Swedish & German names for their three boys (however the oldest boy is named Jeff; aka JJ) then there's Wilmarth (Marty) Lars (Lonnie) & Karsten (Kit) Speaking of Germanic sounding names, one of my great-grandmothers was named Wilhelmina.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Prince_Christopher on October 04, 2006, 10:06:43 PM
There is no rule against a third given name, so give your children three names. By the way my paternal grandmother was named Violet. Born 1899. This is not a very common name presently either.

Did you notice that the man who shot the Amish children yesterday had redundant first names, Charles Carl? Who is so stupid not to known that this is the same name in different languages both originating from the ancient name Carolus?

David

I think Violet is a lovely name....

The redundancy of names is interesting to me too.  I did notice the Charles Carl thing.  Also, giving two forms of the same name to two children in one family is very irritating, unless there are extenuating circumstances.  I know a family with brothers James and Jimmy, another with brothers Bobby and Robert, and yet another with sisters Patricia and Patsy.  I also know an unfortunate little girl whose name is actually Vicky Victoria.  It is listed on her birth certificate that way!  :-\

An ancestor of mine named a younger son William, after an older son (also named William) who had died in (I think) the Civil War.  I think that is an exception to the rudundant name thing....
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 04, 2006, 10:23:10 PM
I think Violet is a lovely name....

The redundancy of names is interesting to me too.  I did notice the Charles Carl thing.  Also, giving two forms of the same name to two children in one family is very irritating, unless there are extenuating circumstances.  I know a family with brothers James and Jimmy, another with brothers Bobby and Robert, and yet another with sisters Patricia and Patsy.  I also know an unfortunate little girl whose name is actually Vicky Victoria.  It is listed on her birth certificate that way!  :-\

Where is it that you are from? Oklahoma, West Virginia, Alabama?

Here are a few official names on birth certificates that I despise: Sonny, Buddy, Junior, Woody and Gordy.

David

Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 04, 2006, 10:32:39 PM
An ancestor of mine named a younger son William, after an older son (also named William) who had died in (I think) the Civil War.  I think that is an exception to the rudundant name thing....

This is an acceptable practice in some cultures but seen as bad luck in other traditions. Usually it is a nephew that is named after a deceased uncle as in my case, my middle name is Ashley after my uncle First Lieutenant Ashley Filer Pritchard USAAC (1922-1943), who was shot down by Japanese anti-aircraft fire not far from the South Pacific island of Guadalcanal. A younger cousin of mine was also named after the Army Air Corps pilot, Ashley William Pritchard, William being our paternal grandfather's middle name. As for my first name David, my great grandfather's brother was David Pritchard as was my great grandfather's uncle. Until a few years ago, I had a novogenarian great uncle, Wesley Filer, and cousin Wesley Pritchard who was named after him. It would seem that for the past five generations or at least from around 1800, the male members of my family have been given recycled first and middle names.

David
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Taren on October 04, 2006, 10:33:51 PM
UGH - I DESPISE giving nicknames or shortned names as actual names. I also can't stand Lee/Leigh and Lynn as middle names. It's like the parents didn't even try. Charlie Sheen's daughter is named Sam. Would it have killed him to make it Samantha, but call her Sam? Courteney Cox and David Arquette's daughter's name is Coco. It sounds like a name you'd give a poodle. I understand why they couldn't name her Courteney, like they wanted, but maybe they could've gone with Sarah or Katherine or something. Johnny Cash's brother was Jack, so the family had a John and a Jack. I honestly think that before parents name children, they should have to have the name voted on by a panel to see if it is suitable or not. Don't some countries have laws about naming children? I know in Spain you can't give your kid a name that is gender neutral -apparently this was going to be a problem with one of the Beckham boys.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 04, 2006, 10:42:46 PM
In Germany, given names are strictly regulated to prevent any children from being named Moon Unit. I believe that Finland and Sweden have similar laws.

David
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Prince_Christopher on October 04, 2006, 11:27:50 PM
I honestly think that before parents name children, they should have to have the name voted on by a panel to see if it is suitable or not.

LOL, Taren, but so true....
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 04, 2006, 11:37:31 PM
Believe me, I considered going around the 'just 2 names' rule but I'm too hidebound, I suppose.  :)

You have introduced me to a new word, 'hidebound', I had to look it up because I thought that you were wanting to write 'herd bound'. Either word would have worked in the sentence but they have different meanings. Where did you learn this uncommon word?

David
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: grandduchessella on October 05, 2006, 06:58:03 AM
I don't know where I first picked it up--maybe from my late grandmother who was born in 1902. I didn't even realize it was unusual! People have teased me since I was a child for using words that are old-fashioned.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Prince_Lieven on October 05, 2006, 08:09:54 AM
This is a good site when it comes to researching names: http://www.behindthename.com/ (http://www.behindthename.com/)

My grandparents (all born in the 1920s/30s) are called John, Mary, Nuala and Patrick - all very typical of the time, but not very popular any more.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on October 05, 2006, 08:56:14 AM
Nuala is a very pretty name, Liam! You can tell your nan that from me!

Victorian names are so en vogue in the UK at the moment.  I work with kids over the summer, and I met so many 'old lady' named children.  Alice, Kitty, Flora, Stella, Ruby, etc.  Apparently the names to go for now if you want your child to be different are 1950's names.  Susan, Patricia, etc.  They're coming back!! I know of a baby called Brenda even..

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Prince_Lieven on October 05, 2006, 10:25:51 AM
Lol, thanks Rachel, she'll be delighted. I think it's a dimunitive of 'Fionnuala'.

I done some work experience in a primary school two years ago, and I found Irish names very popular - Tadge (is that how you spell that??), Rianna, Ailbhe etc. Also, my sister's name (Emma) is apparently hugely popular in the US at the moment.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: emeraldeyes on October 05, 2006, 12:00:04 PM
I also can't stand Lee/Leigh and Lynn as middle names. It's like the parents didn't even try.

 Courteney Cox and David Arquette's daughter's name is Coco. It sounds like a name you'd give a poodle.


My middle name is Lynn.  So is my sister's.  So maybe they didn't really try that hard. 

My older cat is named Coco - after Coco Chanel, naturally.

My husband's family had a tradition of naming the first born son of the first born son Henry.  This lasted until my husband's eldest brother - Henry Daniel - named his first son Jesse.  He would have been the ninth I think.  Such a shame to see a long tradition lke that go down the tubes. 




Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: grandduchessella on October 05, 2006, 03:48:57 PM
As traditional as I am (or hidebound as it were  ;) ), I chucked that tradition. I wasn't against my husband's name, Robert, except that they are all over both sides of our family, but his middle name is Norman.  :-\ His brother is James Orville Jr and he ditched it as well.  ;) My brother is William Wallace III but he didn't have a son--yet!
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Caleb on October 05, 2006, 06:19:28 PM
My paternal grandmother's first name is Amilee (pronounced like "Emily") I'm assuming it's a southern name. My grandma was a farm girl in Georgia.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: imperial angel on October 10, 2006, 10:36:24 AM
I love Victorian names.. it's nice to know that they in vogue now in the UK. I like them so much, but they are seldom used. My own name is largely overused now, although it was more unique to begin with. I don't like any current names, one way or the other. I like foreign names, but most people don't, sadly. I do like my first name, but have never cared for my middle one. I also dislike being called Gracie, which people have before. It isn't even a nickname, I might point out, because it isn't shorter. ;) I have often been told by people they like my name, which is great. No one seems to dislike it, although that is perhaps because Grace has been overly popular in the past few years.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Prince_Lieven on October 10, 2006, 03:48:08 PM
Does a nickname have to be shorter? Mine include Liamo, Liamee and Liamee-eye-oh (all admittedly horrible  ;D)
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Kimberly on October 10, 2006, 03:56:10 PM
Grace is extremely popular in my neck of the woods as is Ruby, Hope, Poppy, Maisie....... these are such a refreshing change from Codee-lee, Tanishkaah et al (and with these "madey-uppy" names I so often hear "oh, I don't know how we spell it :o)
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 10, 2006, 09:27:55 PM
I was able to break open a name this afternoon. All that was inside were a few pieces stale candy, a quarter and some pocket lint. Who would have ever known!
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: imperial angel on October 11, 2006, 08:09:28 AM
Well, we sure are going on and on about names on these threads.. ;)
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Penny_Wilson on October 11, 2006, 01:29:36 PM
Some more fuel for the fire:  "Baby's Named a Bad, Bad Thing: A Primer on Parental Cruelty"

http://www.notwithoutmyhandbag.com/babynames/

Who could help but shed a tear for the little boy named "Toolio DeSac"?

+++++++

For almost the whole of 1999/2000 school year, I was a long-term substitute teacher in a private middle school (the kids were about 11-13ish).  On my first day, as I was doing roll-call, several of the "fancier" names posed pronunciation difficulties, but nothing I couldn't handle.  Until I got to the "S"'s in the alphabet -- there was ONE name that I can't write here because it's spelled like a popular eight-letter word -- plus an "e."  Suffice it to say, the (very jaded) little girl informed me that her name was pronounced "Shee-THAY-dee," and no, she had no idea what her parents were thinking about.

I almost called them to ask...  ::)

+++++++

Oh!  Edited to add another one:  When I was in high school biology, my lab partner was named Stewart Stuart.  Or maybe it was Stuart Stewart.  I don't know what was going on there, either.

Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Janet_W. on October 11, 2006, 02:50:25 PM
My reply to the question used in this thread's title (with thanks to "Bill" Shakespeare): A lot is in a name . . . and a lot isn't. In other words, while first impressions are important, people can determine how others will perceive them via their conduct, and a name that might seem awkward, unattractive or even heinous can be neutralized, or even made attractive, if the owner of that name is a decent person.

On the other hand, parents often give a child a name out of their own questionable sense of humor, or for reasons of ego, or due to family pressures, or whatever. But they don't think of the child, and what effect this will have on the child. And that, to me, is Consideration #1.

P.S. As for a bizarre name giving a person character, as is considered via the "Boy Named Sue" song . . . you'll note that at the end of that song, when the father informs his son  the difficult name has made him stronger--a real man--so isn't he glad he was given that name . . .  the otherwise forebearing narrator replies with a resounding "NO!"   ;^)
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: grandduchessella on October 11, 2006, 02:56:47 PM
I knew of a child who was named Ampersand (&, &, &, &), also commonly called an "and" sign.  :o :P

There was a Saturday Night Live sketch about 15 years ago where Nicholas Cage was the guest host. In it he and his 'wife' were discussing baby names for their soon-to-be-born child. She puts out names like William and Peter and he shoots them down with the taunting rhymes, etc... that the child might be subjected to. It goes on for a while until they are interrupted by a knock on the door. He opens it and it's a guy with a telegram for an 'A**wipe Johnson'. Cage replies haughtily that it's Os-wee-pay. You had to actually see it but it was funny as hell.

You can see the transcript here:

http://www.cagebypage.com/images_art/snl/snl_3.html
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: emeraldeyes on October 11, 2006, 04:14:51 PM
ROFLMAO!  I totally remember that sketch and Reyn and I both roared!  Thanks for reminding me.   :)


Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Duchess Georgiana on October 13, 2006, 01:07:59 AM
I remember reading about a name on that notwithoutmyhandbag site, where a teenage girl just had a baby and spelled her baby's name as as*hole but it's pronounced as Ashley...  ::)
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 13, 2006, 06:46:05 AM
About fifteen years ago there was a news report about a woman who had given birth to fraternal twins. Using the full capacity of her mental faculties she named the son Male, pronounced Mali as in the country and her daughter Female, pronounced Fem'ali. This was an act of blatant child abuse and a precursor for the future care of the children. The woman should have had the children removed from her care and the mother sent to a prison.

It is obvious from all of our stories on this thread that there is a base and semi-feral human population loose within general society, breeding without supervision or even occaissional oversight. These people need their indiscriminate mating regulated and the naming and rearing of thier spawn supervised.

David
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Grand Duchess Kimbo on October 13, 2006, 07:11:53 AM
Lol, thanks Rachel, she'll be delighted. I think it's a dimunitive of 'Fionnuala'.

I done some work experience in a primary school two years ago, and I found Irish names very popular - Tadge (is that how you spell that??), Rianna, Ailbhe etc. Also, my sister's name (Emma) is apparently hugely popular in the US at the moment.


There's an Irish football player over here--his name is Tadhg(i think!) and now I know of a few people who have named their boys that.


My great-grandparents were named Gladys, Percival, Euphie(Euphemia) and Noam(jewish. i only just found this out!). My grandparents were Elaine-Beryl and James, Eileen and Matthew.


Typical Australian names kinda frustrate me--take Bindi, for example, or DANYLE(not daniel.)
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Duchess Georgiana on October 13, 2006, 11:15:29 AM
David!  She had twins and that's the bext she came up with?  She needs to be slapped.

GD Kimbo, I like Percival actually.  Reminds me of the headmaster from ther Harry Potter books.  His whole name being Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore... ;D
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: emeraldeyes on October 13, 2006, 11:52:36 AM
It is obvious from all of our stories on this thread that there is a base and semi-feral human population loose within general society, breeding without supervision or even occaissional oversight. These people need their indiscriminate mating regulated and the naming and rearing of thier spawn supervised.

David

I could not agree more. 
People need licences for all sorts of inconsequential things - but no one makes sure that a person is actually fit to become a parent. 

A bit o/t but there used to be a rant board called 'Brats' that frequently explored that very topic...
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: grandduchessella on October 15, 2006, 10:16:18 PM
Hopefully they'll realize they can have their name changed. David Bowie's son, birth name Zowie, changed his to Thomas, I believe. David Carradine & Barbara Hershey inflicted a similar punishment on their offspring but I can't remember what it was changed to/from.

Names were always a favorite topic at various baby showers and one person supplied the story (which they swore was true and I don't doubt it) named their daughter Vagina and called her Gina. I think that's definitely grounds for a child abuse claim.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Taren on October 15, 2006, 10:38:02 PM
Hopefully they'll realize they can have their name changed. David Bowie's son, birth name Zowie, changed his to Thomas, I believe. David Carradine & Barbara Hershey inflicted a similar punishment on their offspring but I can't remember what it was changed to/from.

Names were always a favorite topic at various baby showers and one person supplied the story (which they swore was true and I don't doubt it) named their daughter Vagina and called her Gina. I think that's definitely grounds for a child abuse claim.

I looked up the Hershey/Carradine baby up and now I wish I hadn't -his name is Free!  ::) He later changed it to Tom. Zowie changed his name to Duncan Zowie Heywood Jones (Jones is David Bowie's real last name). I think most celebrity baby names are probably some of the best examples of why you shouldn't take drugs.  ;)

There's nothing wrong with giving your child a unique name, but that doesn't mean it should be one that will embarass them when they're older. Lady Helen and Tim Taylor's children come to mind: Cassius, Columbus, Eloise, and Estella. While none of them are names I would choose, they're unique without being ridiculous.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 16, 2006, 08:44:49 AM
If I remember correctly, Cassius was boxer Mohammed Ali's given name prior to his conversion to Islam.

David

Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: grandduchessella on October 16, 2006, 10:08:43 AM
Yes, Cassius Clay.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: granduchess_leah on October 16, 2006, 12:40:34 PM
i know that my name leah means weary". Alternatively it might mean "mistress" or "ruler" in Assyrian, Irish Gaelic origin that means "The Light of the Sun".
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: David_Pritchard on October 16, 2006, 10:17:15 PM
i know that my name leah means weary". Alternatively it might mean "mistress" or "ruler" in Assyrian, Irish Gaelic origin that means "The Light of the Sun".

But what does your name mean in Klingon?
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: emeraldeyes on October 17, 2006, 08:45:29 AM

Mighty batleth-wielding one
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Alixz on July 08, 2009, 11:06:01 AM
EE - you have me ROTF LMAO -  and it took me three years to stop and read this thread!

My grandparents:   Eva Alberta and William Herbert

                           Georgiana May and William Joseph

All four were born in the late 1800s.

My parents:           Isabell Hildred  and Burrall William

Not too much there to work with in naming children.  

However my husbands grandparents:   Angelina  ?  and Frank ?
                                                      Margaret  ?  and Nicholas Felix

                                                      

His parents:                                      Carol Marie  and Nicholas (no middle name)

In my husbands family the tradition is very Italian.  The first son is named after his paternal grandfather and the first girl is named after her maternal grandmother.

So our son should be Nicholas William - which he is.  If we had a girl she should have been Isabell Carol - which would not happen.  (Although Isabell - Isabelle and Isabella are beginning to be very popular again.)

And speaking of being careful - we even worried about the initials and what they might spell.  Not a lot of people worry too much about that.

Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Greenowl on July 09, 2009, 05:57:41 PM
What lovely names!

My grandparents had boring names (or at least I think so): Agnes Clare and John Joseph // Marianna and Franz, although my mother had the slightly more exotic name of Philomena Frances and my father was called Carl (sometimes changed to Karel/Charles) Josef but known as "Charlie".
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 13, 2010, 07:20:35 PM
I think ranting against experimental names Ó la Moonshine Money is a rather short-sighted, from an onomastic point of view. If you look at the etymology of most names, most of them meant equally obvious and mundane things to the people who started to use them in their original language.

E.g. NAOTMAA:
Nicholas: People's Victory (Greek)
Alexandra: Men's Defender (Greek)
Olga: Sacred (Old Norse)
Tatiana: Unknown meaning, from a Roman surname.
Maria: Beloved, perhaps. (Semitic)
Anastasia: Resurrection (Greek)
Alexei: Help (Greek)

Would you have named your children Sacred, Resurrection and Help?
BTW I had never realized how pointed the meanings of the IF's individual names are, given their characteristics and fates. Perhaps nomen est omen after all?


Speaking of names, but of noble surnames:
Are there anybody else who thinks the mad Russian Civil War figure Baron Roman von Ungern-Sternberg showed good taste when he quite incorrectly adopted the form Baron Roman Ungern von Sternberg? Anybody else who thinks double-barrelled noble names sound too bourgeois, modern and too little feudal: E.g. that Count Danneskiold of Sams°e sounds better than Count Danneskiold-Sams°e?

And which country has the coolest noble names? Anyone who agrees that the:
- Spanish (e.g. de Villanova), German (e.g. von Neudorf) and French (e.g. de Neuville) ones are too boringly obvious, although the French ones do well in Anglo-Norman disguise (e.g. Neville)?
- That the British, Italian and Russian aristocracies had shockingly common and nondescript names in many instances, not at all distinguishable from commoners?
- That perhaps the best noble surnames are the ornamental surnames of the Scandinavian nobility derived from canting arms? E.g. Pistolkors of Romanov fame?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/PistohlkorsWappen.jpg)
The name means "pistol cross" in Swedish.

Which came first, the name or the arms?
Probably at the same time - in 1645, when Queen Kristina of Sweden ennobled the Lieutenant J÷ran Olufsson of the Karelian Cavalry. He, like so many Scandinavians ennobled by letters patent, obviously emulated the "armorially derived surname" of the ancient Scandinavian noble families like Vasa, Oxenstierna, Rosenkrantz, Gyldenstierna, Gyldenl°ve, Gedde, BanÚr, Bielke, Sparre, Stenbock, Natt och Dag, Leijonhuvud etc. But simultaneously he needed canting arms to derive that surname from!

In Scandinavia (particularly Norway and Denmark) where so many people have farm names as surname, territorial surnames (or titles) are not much used by the nobility, in stark contrast to both Britain, but especially France and Germany.  But unlike in Russia (and Britain), any surname can't be seen as noble, they are usually either foreign (mostly German, e.g. Wedell, Von Essen) or "ornamental surnames" derived or pseudo-derived from arms, like Pistolkors. Often with the connection to heraldry being explicitly mentioned, as in Danneskiold, Danish Shield, whose arms are a variation on the arms of Denmark.
Most non-Scandinavians would probably associate these types of surnames with Jewishness, e.g. Rothschild (Red Shield) and Goldenblatt (Golden Leaf).
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Alixz on April 15, 2010, 10:30:32 AM
I have thought about names of cities, not just children.  Corpus Christi in the state of Texas mean Body of Christ.  Can you imagine saying, I took  trip to Body of Christ last week?  And yet that is what we are actually saying.

Cabo San Lucas - End of Saint Luke

Sangre de Christo - Blood of Christ

But back to names, I have been researching my family's genealogy and I have found several unusual names.

My favorite is      Sit N Wait Lewis    (I don't know if the mom was talking to the child or her husband).

Of course being good Puritans we have our share of    Thankful and Silence and Patience and Prudence.  A couple of Jerusha's and one Salinda.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Constantinople on April 15, 2010, 11:27:02 AM
My favourite is the Houston philanthropist and art collector Ima Hogg
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Alixz on April 15, 2010, 02:47:03 PM
My favourite is the Houston philanthropist and art collector Ima Hogg

How about that other well know Texan - Armand Hammer
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Constantinople on April 15, 2010, 03:07:44 PM
and then there was the well know rare book collector Paige Turner

and the wandering Grand Duke Ilbee Romanoff
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 21, 2010, 01:31:58 AM
Did you notice that the man who shot the Amish children yesterday had redundant first names, Charles Carl? Who is so stupid not to known that this is the same name in different languages both originating from the ancient name Carolus?
The redundancy of names is interesting to me too.  I did notice the Charles Carl thing.  Also, giving two forms of the same name to two children in one family is very irritating, unless there are extenuating circumstances.  I know a family with brothers James and Jimmy, another with brothers Bobby and Robert, and yet another with sisters Patricia and Patsy.  I also know an unfortunate little girl whose name is actually Vicky Victoria.  It is listed on her birth certificate that way!  :-\

My favourite redundant (full) name is Amber Bernstein... :-)

Of course, with all our patronymic surnames, we also get to tackle that issue in Scandinavia: It's usually avoided, but a classmate of my brother was called Jens Jensen. And of course Thomas Mann immortalized a certain Hans Hansen in the ur-Schleswig-Holsteinian novel "Tonio Kr÷ger".

Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Alixz on April 21, 2010, 09:54:07 AM
I worked with a woman whose family tradition was to name the children a variation of the same name.  The woman I worked with was Lorette and her sister was Lorie.

Lorette named her son Christopher and her daughter Crystal.

She never told me why this was a tradition, but I always thought it must have been confusing at times.  Especially with the two girls.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: nena on April 22, 2010, 08:10:06 AM
Perhaps nomen est omen after all?
Definitely. Every name has a meaning. It is not said for nothing. We can freely put the sign '=' between names and omens/meanings.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 23, 2010, 04:38:42 AM
No thoughts on this?
Are there anybody else who thinks the mad Russian Civil War figure Baron Roman von Ungern-Sternberg showed good Šsthethic-onomastic taste when he quite incorrectly adopted the form Baron Roman Ungern von Sternberg?
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Constantinople on April 23, 2010, 05:07:38 AM
Does it justify thought?
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Grace on April 23, 2010, 05:56:21 AM
You mean pondering this insoluble dilemma hasn't had you tossing and turning at night, Constantinople?
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Kalafrana on April 23, 2010, 07:47:31 AM
I have to admit that I find it more interesting that this gentleman, whatever his name, had been thrown out of two military schools and two regiments by the age of 25!

Ann
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 23, 2010, 08:49:52 AM
Yes, this evil chap could certainly do with a thread of his own.

Considering the number of threads devoted to the question of whether this or that RF has a surname or not, I think such a question as Von Ungern-Sternberg (a mere double territorial designation) vs. Ungern von Sternberg is not out of place.
Why did this brute want a proper surname?
Was he inspired by his fellow Baltic Germans, the Dukes of Courland, who despite being of very ancient nobility had the bourgeois-sounding surname Kettler. (Derived from their arms, which show a kettle hook. And Empress Anna Ivanovna can be said to have become Mrs. Kettler, when she married the Duke of Courland :-) Or lay the attraction for this self-proclaimed Dictator of Mongolia in the (erroneous) belief that "Ungern" indicated descent from Hungarians, at one time also an Eastern nomadic people? (Though most likely it's derived from a Baltic river.)

BTW a joke in Nazi Germany was that the anti-Semitic baron was ungern Sternberg, not willingly Sternberg (which was a typical Jewish name).
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Kalafrana on April 23, 2010, 09:03:53 AM
There are quite a lot of historical figures I would like to have met (Gustav Mannerheim for one), but the mad Baltic baron is definitely someone I would avoid!
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Constantinople on April 23, 2010, 12:42:54 PM
Grace
the answer to your question is no.  and because this is a polite forum, I can't discuss what makes me toss and turn at nights but it certainly isn't rhetorical questions.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 24, 2010, 09:50:32 AM
Quote
What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Or bad....
The name on all educated lips these days is of course Eyjafjallaj÷kull. (Or "that Icelandic volcano" on less educated lips.)

The Russians write it Эйяфьядлайёкюдль because it is actually pronounced [ˈeiːjafjatlajťːkʏtl̥], or /Eh-ya-fyat-la-yuh-cuttle/ in English orthography.

Icelandic shares so-called segmentation with Faroese and Western Norwegian dialects, including my own native one*: A long sound, like the double consonant /ll/, is segmented into two sounds: /tl/ or /dl/. Old Norse fjall, mountain, thus becomes fjatl. BTW Eyjafjallaj÷kull means Glacier** of the Island Mountains. The ey part, meaning "island", is the same as the first part in English "island", which is pronounced according to its Germanic origin /'ailŠn/ (compare Dutch eiland), but the spelling is influenced by Old French isle.

* While still going strong on Iceland and the Faroe Islands, it is rapidly disappearing from Western Norwegian dialects, though. Soon we will be back to the original Old Norse system, which we started to mess with 1000 years ago.
** J÷kull, glacier, is cognate with English "icicle"!
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Kalafrana on April 24, 2010, 09:58:48 AM
Fyodor

You never fail us!

Ann
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Alixz on April 24, 2010, 10:13:47 AM
Or never fail to show off.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Kalafrana on April 24, 2010, 10:20:52 AM
I am giving FP the benefit of the doubt.

Ann
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 24, 2010, 01:34:09 PM
My target audience is always fellow nerds with a geeky love of sharing useful as well as useless knowledge and playing intellectual parlour games.
To others I may appear pathetic and arrogant and frankly I don't care.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Kalafrana on April 24, 2010, 02:48:00 PM
Fear not. My head is stuffed full of obscure information and I have an irrestistible compulsion to share it with the world.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Constantinople on April 24, 2010, 03:19:01 PM
I dont think he cares if you share your knowledge just that he wants to imbue others with his esoterica.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 24, 2010, 03:30:48 PM
I dont think he cares if you share your knowledge just that he wants to imbue others with his esoterica.

Answer some of the questions in this thread (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=14659.msg425458#msg425458) and I will love you as a fellow geek. :-)
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Margot on April 26, 2010, 09:22:06 AM
Let's be honest FP's posts are always beautifully written and he is never rude or ill-mannered! His contributions may go over many of our heads and may sometimes make one feel a little out of one's depth, but what he shares here is quite amazing and sometimes quite interesting! I for one, am saddened that others would react with hostility to another person wanting to share their encyclopedic knowledge here with us! I agree with Ella and Ann! I will admit that sometimes I do skim FP's more 'complex' posts, but others may find them useful and interesting! Everyone is different! Contempt for a source of such knowledge is to me, the antithesis of what this forum is all about!!!!
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Alixz on April 26, 2010, 09:33:00 AM
I never mind someone sharing their "encyclopedic knowledge", I am opposed to the way in which it is done.

I will now ask for sources for all of the information, just as we do in other sub forums and thread. 

No more posting without confirmable sources in English.  This is forum policy.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Kalafrana on April 26, 2010, 09:34:13 AM
Some of FP's posts go over my head as well, but the Forum would be the poorer without them! And FP can cope with having his leg pulled (which is the crucial test).

Ann
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Alixz on April 26, 2010, 09:45:32 AM
The crucial test for what?  Whose leg is being pulled?

And if the information posted goes over one's head then nothing is being learned or passed on.

I agree with Constantinople:
I don't think he cares if you share your knowledge just that he wants to imbue others with his esoterica.

Lets get back to the topic at hand.

Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 12, 2011, 09:50:25 PM
How do my esteemed fellow forum members feel about the fact that when HM Queen Margrethe returns to Marselisborg at Easter, the city surrounding it, known as ┼rhus the last time HM visited, will have renamed itself Aarhus, for the sake of keyboard-challenged foreigners who allegedly couldn't be bothered to write ┼rhus when googling business and vacation opportunities and/or were ever so confused as to whether ┼rhus, Aarhus and the typo Arhus were different cities?

(Granted, the city was called Aarhus untill 1948, when the letter combination aa (originally a long /a:/ or ah sound, but in modern times the sound /o:/, as in English "raw") was replaced with the originally Swedish letter ň. (The ring represents a small superscript a, just like the dots in ÷ and Ř represent a small superscript Gothic e.)

Originally the name ┴rh˙s means "house by the stream", from the genitive case of ß, aa or modern Danish ň, stream (cognate with French eau and with the same pronunciation) and hus, house. Both Aarhus and ┼rhus are pronounced : [ˈ ɒː huː ːˀs], simplified /'o:r'hu:s/ or in English orthography somewhat like Awr-hoos.

Just appropriate in a modern English-dominated globalized world, unpatriotic catering to foreign sensibilities or a sad loss of something that makes Denmark Danish?

The theme also extends into the naming of the new royal twins. Fat chance they will be called J°rgen, S°ren, J°rgine or Hj°rdis....
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 13, 2011, 03:44:59 PM
It is sort of like the stupidity during the first Gulf War when Americans started calling French Fries Freedom Fries because the French would not send troops into combat at that time. (Americans didn't stop eating the fries, though.)

Too bad the Surgeon General didn't take it as a great propaganda opportunity in the War on Obesity and demand they be renamed Fatness Fries!
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on February 18, 2015, 05:11:51 PM
Quote
What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...

It's interesting that the rather mundane Boris Yeltsin's surname is rather exotic (from a Turkic word (elši) meaning envoy, messenger, herald), while the more dignified Mikhail Gorbachev's surname is rather mundane, derived from горбатый, gorbatyi, meaning humpbacked or hunchbacked!

Kruschev's earthy name seems more apt: It's derived from xрущ, cockhafer / May bug.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on March 01, 2015, 02:03:21 PM
Two "mutes" silenced on the same day:
Leonard "Spock" Nimoy -  Nimoy (oral form of nemˇy) meaning "mute".
Boris Yefimovich Nemtsov - Nemtsov, from nemets, German or West European, originally meaning "mute.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on March 21, 2015, 05:27:54 PM
Just found out that as a surname Romanov is not the genitive plural of Roman, but the so-called possessive singular of Roman. You can actually say cемья Романов, sem'ya Romanov, meaning "Roman's family".
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Rodney_G. on March 22, 2015, 11:04:25 PM
Genitive plurals as in the possessive of several Romans (Romans'), (Latin " Romanorum")? Since the 'ov' form appended to proper names is so common in Russian, I'm surprised you're learning this at this stage in your knowledge of Russian. Not that I knew this. On the other hand , wouldn't this form be self-evident, since it's so common, linguistically long-standing, and well , obvious in context, deriving from some individual Roman in this case, or some Stepan (ov), or Mark (ov), etc.?
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on March 23, 2015, 05:19:16 AM
Genitive plurals as in the possessive of several Romans (Romans'), (Latin " Romanorum")? Since the 'ov' form appended to proper names is so common in Russian, I'm surprised you're learning this at this stage in your knowledge of Russian. Not that I knew this. On the other hand , wouldn't this form be self-evident, since it's so common, linguistically long-standing, and well , obvious in context, deriving from some individual Roman in this case, or some Stepan (ov), or Mark (ov), etc.?

The thing is, "Romanov" as a surname is NOT the genitive plural, but the possessive singular. (Makes sense, as there was only one Roman Zakharin-Yuriev (himself named with the two other forms of the possessive!) for the Romanovs to be descendants of.) The possessive seldom gets much mention when you learn Russian, as it's termed archa´c and / or colloquial. (Now that's an interesting combination.) But apparantly the possessive -in suffix for names and nicknames ending in -a or -ya is still productive in modern Russian, so the name of the Russian ambassador in Denmark who threatened to nuke, Vanin, is still used as the possessive of Vanya, i.e. syn Vanin = Vanya's son.



Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Rodney_G. on March 23, 2015, 03:24:30 PM
Genitive plurals as in the possessive of several Romans (Romans'), (Latin " Romanorum")? Since the 'ov' form appended to proper names is so common in Russian, I'm surprised you're learning this at this stage in your knowledge of Russian. Not that I knew this. On the other hand , wouldn't this form be self-evident, since it's so common, linguistically long-standing, and well , obvious in context, deriving from some individual Roman in this case, or some Stepan (ov), or Mark (ov), etc.?

The thing is, "Romanov" as a surname is NOT the genitive plural, but the possessive singular. (Makes sense, as there was only one Roman Zakharin-Yuriev (himself named with the two other forms of the possessive!) for the Romanovs to be descendants of.) The possessive seldom gets much mention when you learn Russian, as it's termed archa´c and / or colloquial. (Now that's an interesting combination.) But apparantly the possessive -in suffix for names and nicknames ending in -a or -ya is still productive in modern Russian, so the name of the Russian ambassador in Denmark who threatened to nuke, Vanin, is still used as the possessive of Vanya, i.e. syn Vanin = Vanya's son.





Am I missing something here, or being too literal in reading this? The possessive in Russian ..."is termed archaic and/or colloquial?" Not according to Russian grammars I've read. And while it's possible to express possession in more than one word ("of",or "belonging to"), those formulae would be awkward at best in many languages. This  wouldn't ever be called the reply of Rodney or the reply belonging to Rodney, but rather Rodney's. I do appreciate the usage of -in and -a or -ya as you note, but that seems pretty limited for the possessive function.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on March 23, 2015, 04:19:49 PM
Am I missing something here, or being too literal in reading this? The possessive in Russian ..."is termed archaic and/or colloquial?" Not according to Russian grammars I've read.

LOL, I read that in a (Penguin) Soviet-era grammar from 1961. Got any older?
My 1916 Russian grammar says the possessive is "sometimes used, especially in the popular language", but doesn't treat the -ov forms as non-productive. It also lists an -iy form as applying to a whole group, species, e.g. волчий. wolves', wolfish, of wolves, lupine.

NB I'm not saying that the genitive case forms are becoming obsolete in Russian, that is quite something else. If your name was Rodion, your reply would be "oтвет Родиона".

Quote
And while it's possible to express possession in more than one word ("of",or "belonging to"), those formulae would be awkward at best in many languages. This  wouldn't ever be called the reply of Rodney or the reply belonging to Rodney, but rather Rodney's.

In many Germanic languages: German, Dutch, Norwegian etc. this is happening as we speak, i.e. the language is going from a synthetic form (Rodneys), now mostly reserved for writing, to an analytical form with a preposition (von / van / til Rodney), which is very common in the oral language, and increasingly also in the written language. It never struck me untill now that English may be developing in exactly the opposite direction? Perhaps we tend to use pronouns to express this orally just as much prepositions: Rodney seine Antwort/ zijn antwoord / sitt svar, i.e. "Rodney his answer".

In Romance languages this happened centuries ago, already in Vulgar Latin time. Classical Latin was a synthetic language just like Russian (thus responsum Rodneii if we Romanized your nomen barbaricum to Rodneius :-). But in most modern Romance languages you express it analytically, with a preposition: la rÚponse de Rodney. The odd exception is the isolated Romanian (which also has been in close contact with Slavic languages): Maria, Regina RomÔniei - Maria, Queen of Romania.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on March 23, 2015, 05:03:44 PM
The possessive (which strictly speaking is categorized as a kind of adjective) also neatly explains why the Alexander Palace is Aleksandrovsky dvorets, when it was built for just one Alexander! And why a female's palace must be Mariinsky dvorets.

Just to clear things up:
Genitive (case): pодительный (падеж)
Possessive (case): притяжательный (падеж)
Possessive adjective: Притяжательное прилагательное

You know it's a fairly synthethic language when the genitive of a possessive has its own form, e.g. Vanina - "of Johnnie's". Starts reminding me of Finnish....
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Sanochka on March 23, 2015, 08:13:17 PM
The possessive (which strictly speaking is categorized as a kind of adjective) also neatly explains why the Alexander Palace is Aleksandrovsky dvorets, when it was built for just one Alexander! And why a female's palace must be Mariinsky dvorets.

Just to clear things up:
Genitive (case): pодительный (падеж)
Possessive (case): притяжательный (падеж)
Possessive adjective: Притяжательное прилагательное

You know it's a fairly synthethic language when the genitive of a possessive has its own form, e.g. Vanina - "of Johnnie's". Starts reminding me of Finnish....

Fascinating explanation.  Thank you!
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on April 03, 2015, 08:02:11 AM
THE name in the news the last weeks, of the German murder pilot, Lubitz, is unmistakenly Slavic. (Probably due to emigration from more or less Polish-speaking areas of the German Empire westwards (e.g. Franziska Schanzkowska), to the industrial Ruhrgebiet.) Although his ancestors could hail from L÷bitz in Sachsen-Anhalt, it is more likely they were from Neu- or Alt-Lobitz in southeastern Pomerania. (Records show that some people who emigrated from Alt-Lobitz called themseles Lubitz.) Neu-Lobitz is an abandoned village called Nowy Łowicz and Alt-Lobitz is a village called Łowicz Wałecki. Łowicz is a name derived from łˇw (noun) / łowić (verb) meaning hunt, chase, trap. (Co´ncidentally, but fittingly the noun is pronounced "woof" in modern Polish!) So it means something like "Of the Hunt" or "Of Hunters". The Russian cognate of the verb is ловить. The sound change from b > v is quite common (as the development of the Greek and Russian в shows), so the German form Lobitz / Lubitz probably reflects an original more Western, Pomeranian form. The most famous Łowicz is nevertheless the city further south, in Russian Poland, which gave title to Princess Lowicz (księżna Łowicka-Romanowska), morganatic wife of Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on May 08, 2015, 10:23:46 AM
OK, so Labour leader Ed Miliband is on his way out of politics, after a catastrophic election result, but after learning that his father was a leading Marxist theoretician and his ancestors Polish Jews, I'm wonder what the origin of his name is. Is it Polish, Yiddish or Hebrew? In Polish miły means "lovely". But band? Band / bend is "ribbon" in Yiddish. NB both in Polish and Yiddish Miliband would be pronounced Milibant. Anyone who can shed light on this fading name?
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on May 08, 2015, 02:13:20 PM
OK, so Labour leader Ed Miliband is on his way out of politics, after a catastrophic election result, but after learning that his father was a leading Marxist theoretician and his ancestors Polish Jews, I'm wonder what the origin of his name is. Is it Polish, Yiddish or Hebrew? In Polish miły means "lovely". But band? Band / bend is "ribbon" in Yiddish. NB both in Polish and Yiddish Miliband would be pronounced Milibant. Anyone who can shed light on this fading name?

Although it's strange that this is the only form where the r has disappeared, it could be a not exclusively Jewish, but a quite common name for Germans hailing from Pomerania, in the various form Milbradt, Milbrandt, MŘhlbrandt, MŘhlbradt, Milenbrandt etc.
It means "mild / dear brother" - either from Germanic mildi or Slavic milo / mily + berath / brat. Could originally perhaps indicate a monk or lay brother, perhaps a similar religious function among Jews?

Alternatively from Miłobądz (Polish ą is pronounced dark and nasalized), a town in Pomerania, although i instead of o is then strange.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on May 08, 2015, 03:59:17 PM
Other, typical variations on the Jewish Miliband name are Mileband and Milenband.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on September 05, 2015, 02:40:40 PM
The genuine, Polish form of Franziska Schanzkowska's last name is Częstkowska. This originally noble name must be derived from one of the two Pomeranian villages called Częstkowo, meaning "of Częstkowo". The name Częstkowo (Kashubian: CzŃstkˇwˇ) shares its etymology with the famous Polish shrine Częstochowa, with the first syllable being the short form (Częstko, Częstek or Częstoch) of names such as Częstomir (often peace), Częstobor (often fight) etc. Częstkowo is thus "Częstko's place". Często (czŃsto in Kashubian) means "often" in Polish and is часто in Russian. A fitting name for someone who often changed her identity!
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on September 26, 2015, 08:35:01 AM
Interesting to see that one of the sentimental cradles of the Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov dynasty, the Holsteinian estate Rohlfshagen, in RŘmpel just southwest of Bad Oldesloe, where Peter III's father died and he himself must have spent some time as a boy, lies right on the Limes SaxoniŠ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Saxoniae), the early medieval border zone between Saxons and Slavs (Wends), surrounded by obviously Slavic names such as the river Barnitz (bara (swamp > poodle in modern Serbian) + nica = swampy place) and the hamlets P÷litz (pole, field + nica) and Neritz (na + reka > rece = by the river).
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on September 26, 2015, 02:03:33 PM
the river Barnitz (bara (swamp > poodle in modern Serbian) + nica = swampy place)
Lol, should be "puddle", not "poodle".

Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on January 05, 2017, 09:08:54 AM
One of the strangest aristocractic female names ever:
Lady Feodorowna Cecilia Wellesley (1838 - 1920).
In Russian ears, a girl called Feodorovna as a first name sounds like a girl named Johnson in Anglophone ears, doesn't it?
She was the daughter of the British diplomat Henry Wellesley, 1st Earl Cowley, who was British ambassador to France 1852ľ1867, i.e. during a most anti-Russian period (the Crimean War). But I don't know where he was posted when she was born i 1838. In Russia, with Empress Alexandra Feodorovna as godmother?

The empress condescending to be godmother to a grandniece of the Duke of Wellington is perhaps not so unlikely. Lady Feodorowna married Francis Bertie, 1st Viscount Bertie of Thame, another wartime British ambassador to allied France (1905 - 1918). They had one son with a similar odd name: Vere (ancient aristocratic surname) Bertie, which sounds like it should have been reversed: Bertie Vere!

Even though Feodora was the name of a few 19th-century German princesses, the names Feodora (Theodora) and Feodosia (Theodosia) don't seem to be in use in Russian anymore, but are archa´c or monastic.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Ceridwen on February 07, 2017, 01:47:01 PM
I think names do matter.

One of my pet peeves about name is trying to be very creative and original with the spelling.  Its one thing when there are two or three recognized spellings of a name (ex:Stephen/Steven  Catherine/Katherine/Kathryn  Rachel/Rachael) but spellings like Bryttanai, Hayleah, Erynne, and Kathrynne just bother me. A child with a name like this always has to correct the spelling and hear people comment on it.

I wouldn't give my a child a diminutive name like Susie, Katie, or Lizzie. I love the name Katie but were I to have a daughter I would name her Katherine and call her Katie.  That way if when she became an adult she could go with the full name rather than the diminutive. 
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Kalafrana on February 07, 2017, 04:02:40 PM
I agree with every word you say!

I would add that there are some names which sound reasonable on a child but silly on an adult, and struggle with Russian diminutives, some of which, especially for men, sound dreadfully babyish to my ear.

Ann
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: TimM on February 07, 2017, 05:07:06 PM
Quote
I wouldn't give my a child a diminutive name like Susie, Katie, or Lizzie. I love the name Katie but were I to have a daughter I would name her Katherine and call her Katie.  That way if when she became an adult she could go with the full name rather than the diminutive. 

There was a server at a restaurant that I frequent named Jenny.  Not Jennifer, just Jenny. 

It happens.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on February 14, 2017, 02:36:08 PM
There was a server at a restaurant that I frequent named Jenny.  Not Jennifer, just Jenny. 

In my part of the world, Scandinavia, Jennifer (either with original English pronunciation or adapted to Yennifer), like so many Anglo-Saxon names imported within living memory (post-WW2) has certain trashy connotations. (I.e. only used by people who primarily consume Hollywood movies, soaps etc.) Whereas Jenny (pronounced only Yenny), which must have been imported in the 19th century (along with Fanny, Henny, Harriet, Maud, Olga, Dagmar, Alva, Alma, etc.) is totally comme-il-faut (even a little bourgeois-bohemian) with nostalgic overtones of Edwardian / Oscarian great-grandmothers, the novel "Jenny" by Nobel laureate Sigrid Undset and Jenny Lind.
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on February 14, 2017, 03:37:04 PM
One of my pet peeves about name is trying to be very creative and original with the spelling.

Also known as ornamental or Baroque spelling: Love of voluminous pomposity, bizarre contrasts, ornamentations and horror vacui. Add to that a Romantic fascination for the exotic and nostalgia for bygone ages.

Quote
spellings like Bryttanai, Hayleah, Erynne, and Kathrynne just bother me.

Lol, Bryttanai, that's almost going etymological, from the Ancient Greek sources speaking of πρεταννικαὶ νῆσοι, pretannikai nesoi, Britannic isles. I wonder if there are any Prettneys running around, because p is much prettier than beastly b and besides it's both Greek and Welsh (Ynys Prydain - could be become a hit name!)
Hayleah is interesting, as it's the more correct etymological form of the original place name (meaning "hay field"), later surname Hayley.

The medievalesques who love to substitute y for i (Kathryn ye Qwyn of Womyn), are they perhaps really ypsilonistic devotees of Pythagoras worshipping the mysteries of the two-pathed Samian letter? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upsilon#Symbolism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upsilon#Symbolism) :-)
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on February 18, 2017, 03:22:04 PM
EbenbŘrtigkeit - does it sound as fearfully Teutonic and draconian in Russian: равнородство (ravna-rˇdstva)?
Title: Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
Post by: Превед on March 03, 2018, 07:04:11 AM
The word the Danes use in their epitaphs of him [the late Prince Henrik of Denmark] is sjov*, as in en sjov mand, a fun / funny man.
* Pronounced [ɕɒwˀ], with a Russian-style shcha (щ - voiceless alveolo-palatal fricative), then a typically Danish and English semi-diphtongized vowel and a glottal stop (Danish st°d, also typical of Cockney, Estuary and Australian English) at the end.

The same sound [[ɕ] is the first one in the name of XÝ JýnpÝng [ɕǐ tɕţn.pʰǐŋ], the president of China who is about to make himself dictator for life and virtual emperor. Strange then, that his name is rendered Си Цзиньпин in Russian instead of Щи Цзиньпин. Is it because it's disrespectful to call the Chinese president щи, shchi, cabbage soup?