Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Anastasia Nicholaievna => Topic started by: tatianolishka_ on October 05, 2006, 09:07:23 PM

Title: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: tatianolishka_ on October 05, 2006, 09:07:23 PM
Hi,

I can't seem to find many pictures of Anastasia (or Olga, for that matter) with her dogs. As you can tell, I love dogs and I think it would be easier if we had all of the photographs of Anastasia and her dogs all in one topic, just to save us the stress of using the search engine all the time :).

Post away!

TatOlia.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 07, 2006, 11:36:09 AM
i have the full one of her and her "teddy"  ;)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/fencergirl_42/Black%20and%20%20White/th_ana34.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/fencergirl_42/Black%20and%20%20White/ana34.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: Holly on October 07, 2006, 04:17:42 PM
The Dog in the first picture, Jemmy, wasn't really Anastasia's. It was actually Tatiana's. And the second picture is with (I'm 99% sure)her dog Shvibzik, it wasn't a "teddy" or doll, it's a real animal.  ;)
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 07, 2006, 04:44:32 PM
i thought jemmy was Nastyas

didn't he die with them in the basement?
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: tatianolishka_ on October 07, 2006, 05:02:09 PM
i thought jemmy was Nastyas

didn't he die with them in the basement?
Jemmy did in fact belong to Tatiana, but she already had Ortino. So Jemmy sort of turned to Anastasia for love and affection.

Wether it was Ortino or Jemmy that was killed was discussed, and I believe that yes, Jemmy had died with them.

Any other pictures? Isn't there one of them on the Standart where Anastasia's holding on to Shibzik with a leash?
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 07, 2006, 07:44:31 PM
oh i never knew about that

there is a picture of them on the standart? i've never seen this
maybe sarushka can find them
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: tatianolishka_ on October 07, 2006, 07:58:53 PM
I think I've found it... Its in "Olishka's Journal" page three of the albums. It's on the second row, fourth picture. The caption is "Bored on the Standart".

http://www.livadia.org/olishka/album3.html

TatOlia
Woof!
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: tatianolishka_ on October 07, 2006, 08:22:26 PM
That does sound plausible, but there's just one thing missing. Only the body of one dog was found, and that was believed to be Jemmy. No one knows what became of the other dog (Ortino). I like to believe it ran away and found someone to care for it, but that's a one in a million chance, right? ???

Other than that, I agree with you completely.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: Holly on October 07, 2006, 11:36:35 PM
I'm pretty sure the dog that Anastasia was holding on a leash on the Standart was not Shvibzik. Shvibzik died of cerebral inflammation in mid 1915. Which was about the same time as when the picture of Anastasia in the motorcar with a dog was taken. Shvibzik was also a type of pomerianian dog which is what the "teddy" is. The dog in the Standart picture is clearly not.

There is no proof that Jemmy was killed IN the cellar with the family and Yurovsky gives no mention of any dogs present at the actual executions, however, I remember reading that Jemmy was making so much noise with her barking and everything that they did kill her. Her body was found frozen in a mineshaft on June 25, 1919, very well preserved and was positively identified as Jemmy by Pierre Gilliard. When found her, forensic pathologists did an autopsy which showed that the dog had been dead for no more than a week when it was discovered. So, it couldn't have died with Anastasia. Jemmy was given to Tatiana as a gift from Anya Vyrubova after she left the family. Since Anastasia did not have a dog but loved them very much, she played with Jemmy all the time and kind of took her under her wing. Her legs were so short that she had to carry him up the stairs and Anastasia often referred to her as "My Jim." But it still was not technically hers. I read that Ortino was killed on the staircase and from the extra bone fragments, is believed to have also been burned along with the others. Joy survived the Ipatiev House and lived out the remainder of his life at Windsor, where he is now buried.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 08, 2006, 09:34:23 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/fencergirl_42/Black%20and%20%20White/th_TandA.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/fencergirl_42/Black%20and%20%20White/TandA.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: Holly on October 08, 2006, 09:39:11 AM
thanks holly for the information
in the Kitchen Boy jemmy's head was squashed

but that is fiction   ::)
i believe Jemmy died with Nastya
and Oritino got away

i only thought one dog was with them in the arrest not two.. but it does make sense.
But Jemmy couldn't have died the same day as Anastasia did if when they found him a year later and he had been dead only a week.  ::) It's highly unlikely Ortino could have run away or anything like that. Bits of bone they found which had been burned, that didn't go anywhere else, is thought to have been the remains of Ortino.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: tatianolishka_ on October 09, 2006, 11:35:21 AM
Hmm... then who is the dog with her on the standart?  ??? I was almost certain it was Shibzik!
D'OH!

TatOlia.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 09, 2006, 04:37:06 PM
didn't alix have a dog?
but i thought it was smaller.. maybe it was MFs?

hmm i suppose your right.. but still that is very lucky
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: RealAnastasia on October 09, 2006, 10:39:21 PM
   The one found by the whites was Jemmy. I think that it is even a photo of the remains of the dog, that is more close to Jemmy than to Ortino who was a black French Bulldog.

   If you read "Fate of the Romanovs", by Penny Wilson and Greg King they made a very complete account of the family's death, and they mentioned that the one who was killed by a bayonette was Ortino. Later, some little bones where found by Sokolov researchers among some remains of human fat, human skin and ashes. Some historians believes that these bones could be these of Ortino. Others, thinks that there were just chicken bones, for Yurovsky and his men could have been eating chicken right there (Yuck!  :P)

   And Robert K. Massie mentiones ( in "Nicholas and Alexandra" and in "The Romanovs; the Last Chapter") that Jemmy was in Anastasia's arms. She was carrying him. When the shot started, the animal jump out Anastasia's arms, and he got his head crushed by a rifle's butt. I think this explains all.

     Joy was the only one too lucky to get away . It's very sad  and paradoxal that he was the only one of the Imperial family that could reach England and ending his days there, happily...like the Tsar had wished. :'(

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: Sarushka on October 10, 2006, 11:08:53 AM
there is a picture of them on the standart? i've never seen this
maybe sarushka can find them
These are the only photos I can think of with a dog on the Standart. I think it's probably MF's dog, though. It only appears in photos with her...
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Standart/th_scan0007.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Standart/scan0007.jpg)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Standart/th_6-138.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Standart/6-138.jpg)


Alexandra did have a dog -- some kind of terrier named Eira. I'm sure you can find a photo of her (I've seen it, but I don't have it) on this thread, which AGRBear maintains rather faithfully:
Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Link List (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,2541.0.html)
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: tatianolishka_ on October 10, 2006, 05:17:26 PM
Neat!

Even if it's Marie F.'s dog, it's really cute! Thanks Sarushka!

TatOlia
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: tatianolishka_ on October 10, 2006, 07:10:16 PM
Well, it's not Joy (somewhere it was discussed...), it's not Shibzik, definatly not Eira or Ortino... the photo looks 1914-ish, so... that leaves us with Jemmy or the Tsar's dog.
I'm thinking Jemmy now... but didn't he come until around 1915?
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 11, 2006, 07:30:35 PM
right...

so.. it must be the tsar's dog. but did he even have a dog?

i saw some pictures of him hunting with a dog, but was that his?
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: Holly on October 12, 2006, 04:11:03 PM
right...

so.. it must be the tsar's dog. but did he even have a dog?

i saw some pictures of him hunting with a dog, but was that his?
The Tsar had MANY dogs! Lots and lots of them. He had a whole pack of collies and there is a cute anecdote in which one of the collies jumped on Tatiana's back and she started to cry. Then the nanny said, "He was only trying to say hello." And Tatiana said something like, "Well he could have said it to my face instead of my back!" ;D
The picture from the Standart definetly isn't Jemmy. For one thing, at the time the picture was taken, it wasn't even theirs yet! And Jemmy was a very tiny King Charles Cavalier Spaniel. The dog in question is definetly not that! I'm not sure what dog it was but just because it wasn't Shvibzik or Jemmy, it doesn't mean it didn't belong to Anastasia! She loved dogs and she could very well have had another that we don't know about.

I'm curious to know why some people think that Jemmy died in the cellar with them since Yurovsky and many others mention no dogs at all were brought down that night and Jemmy's body says that when they found him he had been little more than a week.  ???
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: tatianolishka_ on October 12, 2006, 06:07:40 PM
Aw, how cute! Does anyone have it in B&W?


so.. it must be the tsar's dog. but did he even have a dog?

i saw some pictures of him hunting with a dog, but was that his?

The tsar had Iman, Selika(?) (the sheltie dog in the anecdote) and several dogs.  The Tsar was a huge dog lover, and the Empress sounded more like a cat lover. But I don't know; Cat's aren't my specialty.

So chances are it's one of the Tsar's dogs or like Holly said, a dog who just hung around with the IF.

I'm sorry, I just have to get this out of my system: DOGS RULE! GO BOW-WOWS! ;D
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: koloagirl on October 12, 2006, 06:20:24 PM
 :)

If I'm not incorrect -- this picture is actually of GD Anastasia and one of the "Standart's" ships cats.   See the black and white below.  Altho' the picture is very faded, it doesn't appear to be a dog.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Koloagirl/1000932.jpg)

Also -- this is a sad picture, but this picture is of "Jemmy" who was pulled from the mine shaft.   
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Koloagirl/JemmyRemains.jpg)

Janet R.



Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: tatianolishka_ on October 12, 2006, 06:26:08 PM
That's so sad!

The tail doesn't give much of a hint... spaniels and bulldogs both had curly tails. But you can't see his ears. That would have been a good indicator of who's remains they were. Could it possibly be just a dog that had fallen into the shaft and died there?

Stupid questions. They're the best ones.  ;)

I'm sorry to say, but the photo is definatly of a cat. The way the eyes are positioned and how her hand is, I'm guessing it's a cat. D'OH!
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on October 12, 2006, 10:06:43 PM
They actually have a picture of Jemmy? Excuse me if I'm being stupid, it is getting very late at night, but when was this taken? It had to have been soon after the murder, because he isn't decomposed.  ???
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: koloagirl on October 12, 2006, 10:33:21 PM
 :)

I know that this particular story about Jemmy's condition (his body) has been discussed in great depth -- because apparently it was in very good condition after such a long time -- the thought is that it was "planted" by the Reds as I recall to throw off the time of the murders.  Meaning that Jemmy was alive at the time of the murders but then was subsequently killed later and thrown in the pit.  At least that is one theory.  But apparently Pierre Gilliard identified Jemmy's body.

I know there is a thread about this --- just trying to remember -- I'm sure AGR Bear would know!!   ;D

Janet R.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 13, 2006, 08:23:19 AM
i'm sorry but to me it kinda does look like him.
well the size does.

it is common for those little dogs, spaniels, to have their tail cut off
so it looks like a little nub.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: Holly on October 13, 2006, 04:40:54 PM
http://livadia.org/ana/1907-1912/8.jpg (http://livadia.org/ana/1907-1912/8.jpg) Theres a link to a clearer B&W of Anastasia and the animal. It still looks like a puppy to me and the tail is too short to be a cat, plus the legs don't resemble a cat's either. I've read that it was a dog somewhere that's why I believe it is.  :)

Clock, Jemmy wasn't very decomposed because he at the time he had only been dead around a week. He was not killed on July 17, 1918 obviously.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: tatianolishka_ on October 13, 2006, 05:18:00 PM
Hmmmm... Looks like a mystery... but for another topic.

Are there any more pictures of Anastasia and her creatures? Cats, dog, emus... ??? :D

Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: Holly on October 14, 2006, 08:15:29 AM
http://livadia.org/ana/1907-1912/6.jpg (http://livadia.org/ana/1907-1912/6.jpg)
Here's a picture from a series of pictures taken of OTMAA and little kittens on the Standart. I'll post another later if no one else has already done it.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: tatianolishka_ on October 14, 2006, 09:24:25 AM
I've found two pictures from (I think) Tolbosk that show Anastasia with a dog on her lap. I'll try and find a clearer verson, but this is the best I can do.
http://www.livadia.org/mashka/images/otma1917_1.jpg - Tatiana has a dog in this picture too.
And I can't find the other one! D'OH!

Here's one from the Standart; you can just barely see the dog with Anastasia on the Standart.
http://www.livadia.org/mashka/images/aotma1915_1.jpg

Does anybody have the second Tolbosk picture I'm talking about?

TatOlia
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: Holly on October 14, 2006, 11:02:30 AM
The pictures were taken while they were under house-arrest at the Alexander Palace, not Tobolsk.  ;)
Anastasia has Jemmy and Tatiana is holding Ortino. I know the picture you're talking about but I don't have time to search for it.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 14, 2006, 11:08:59 AM
here is a picture of TA with oritino.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/fencergirl_42/Black%20and%20%20White/th_TandA-1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/fencergirl_42/Black%20and%20%20White/TandA-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: tatianolishka_ on October 14, 2006, 07:49:35 PM
Cow?
When did Anastasia get this cow? Did all of the girls get one?

I've seen some photos of the Imperial Cows in one of the websites here: Tsarskoe Selo 1910, I think.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: Holly on October 14, 2006, 08:22:20 PM
I don't think it was all the girls, just Anastasia. All I know is that she was given a cow by the president of France at the time and it was kept at the Imperial Zoo.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 14, 2006, 09:26:41 PM
i've never heard of the Cow

but alexei did get a donkey! 8)
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: Sarushka on October 22, 2006, 08:54:06 AM
didn't alix have a dog?

Here's a thread about Alix's dog, Eira:
Eira Alexandra Feodorovna's dog (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,1293.0.html)

And a photo:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/NAOTMAA%20assorted/Animals/roenasd023.jpg)

Alix also had an Italian greyhound as a child, which was stuffed after he died. It was auctioned off a few months ago...
Auction for "Cony", Pr. Alix's stuffed greyhound (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,6951.0.html)


i've never heard of the Cow

but alexei did get a donkey! 8)
And don't forget the elephant!
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: blessOTMA on November 19, 2009, 09:23:52 AM
I think I've found it... Its in "Olishka's Journal" page three of the albums. It's on the second row, fourth picture. The caption is "Bored on the Standart".

http://www.livadia.org/olishka/album3.html

TatOlia
Woof!

I always thought that dog was Joy....certainly the same breed. They had so many dogs that perhaps a dog lover like Anastasia,
would take one along  for a trip.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: NAOTMAA Fan on November 20, 2009, 06:24:40 PM
i thought jemmy was Nastyas

didn't he die with them in the basement?

Wether it was Ortino or Jemmy that was killed was discussed, and I believe that yes, Jemmy had died with them.



It was in fact Jemmy, as is often reputed, who died on the night of the execution. I've always believed he was in the cellar with everyone, but there are accounts that say otherwise. You can see the animal has long, matted hair, a trait more akin to a King Charles Cavalier Spaniel than a French Bulldog.

(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x232/KeeganYoung/th_scan0001-2.jpg) (http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x232/KeeganYoung/?action=view&current=scan0001-2.jpg)

(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x232/KeeganYoung/th_oaf12252qm-1.jpg) (http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x232/KeeganYoung/?action=view&current=oaf12252qm-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: NAOTMAA Fan on November 20, 2009, 07:12:55 PM
i thought jemmy was Nastyas

didn't he die with them in the basement?

Wether it was Ortino or Jemmy that was killed was discussed, and I believe that yes, Jemmy had died with them.


Ignore that last bit...

I've always felt it was Jemmy, as is often reputed, who died on the night of the execution. I've also thought she was in the cellar with everyone, but there are accounts that say otherwise. You can see the animal has long, matted hair, a trait more akin to a King Charles Cavalier Spaniel than a French Bulldog. The chapter that the below image is taken from talks a lot about the dog being "planted" and goes into detail about the amount of decomposition the body should have endured after 11 months submerged in water (this animal was found in June 1919). It also goes on to say that this proves the Romanovs had been spirited out of Ekaterinburg and only the servants executed. So I can't really make a sound decision, based on this author and his "evidence", whether the corpse is definitely Jemmy or not :| But I mean, strange things can happen, and I honestly think it is her.

(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x232/KeeganYoung/th_scan0001-2.jpg) (http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x232/KeeganYoung/?action=view&current=scan0001-2.jpg)

(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x232/KeeganYoung/th_oaf12252qm-1.jpg) (http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x232/KeeganYoung/?action=view&current=oaf12252qm-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: Sarushka on November 20, 2009, 08:29:15 PM
Two of the executioner's accounts mention Anastasia carrying a small dog to the cellar. One was Strekotin, which nena quoted in another thread:

With them came Yurovsky, Nikulin, Medvedev, and Ermakov, the last one I knew from the Dutov Front. All of the arrested ones were dressed in the usual manner, and were clean and neat. The Tsar carried his son in his arms. Anastasia carried a little dog. The ex-Empress leaned on the arm of her eldest daughter, Olga.


Even if the 1919 canine corpse is not Jemmy, that doesn't mean Jemmy wasn't killed with the family. IMO, she was indeed in the cellar, and died there with Anastasia.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: Holly on November 20, 2009, 09:41:28 PM
It's obvious that Jemmy didn't live past 1918 but I wouldn't say for sure if he was in the cellar with them or not. As NAOTMAA Fan said, there isn't enough proof that he was. Too many different accounts on the execution to know for sure. Personally, I can't see Anastasia leaving Jemmy behind. She cared for Jemmy too much to just leave her there alone. But I don't know for sure.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: blessOTMA on November 20, 2009, 09:57:45 PM
Quote
Even if the 1919 canine corpse is not Jemmy, that doesn't mean Jemmy wasn't killed with the family. IMO, she was indeed in the cellar, and died there with Anastasia.

I agree with that...it's not a detail someone bothers to creates and I don't see her leaving Jemmy. I wonder what the family was told about the other dogs...they would be brought to them later??
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: NAOTMAA Fan on November 20, 2009, 10:17:56 PM
Was Ortino already dead by the time of the executions? The only thing I've ever read of his death was in Carolyn Meyer's Anastasia: The Last Grand Duchess. Not exactly a reliable or primary historical source I dare say : \

I'm glad though to see the majority of people agree with my opinion on Jemmy's presence in the cellar, I thought there might be some opposition. Given that, does this mean Ortino was the dog who was seen "shivering" on the staircase and then impaled on the end of a soldier's bayonet? Did that actually happen do you think? I mean I'm going to have to believe the canine corpse from 1919 was Jemmy, only because I couldn't explain where else her corpse may have gone. And having said that, if Ortino was also killed that night, where did his body go?
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: nena on November 21, 2009, 05:26:32 AM
Well, Ortipo aka Ortino was seen in GD Tatiana's arms, by Pierre Gilliard, upon arriving at Ekaterinburg Railroad Station. What happened with Frenchy, we can only guess. I am believer that Jemmy was presented in the cellar room, and apparently stabbed by soldier, the one saying 'Dogs die like dogs'.

However, I will do all my efforts to find out something more, on Russian web about dogs. I am almost sure that Anastasia carried her little pet on the final night,Yurovsky states also. Dog was found on June 25th 1919 at Mine.

Heh, me using a lot of metaphors?

This little part refers on Ortipo, but it is not enough *translated*:

It remains to find out what happened to Ortipo. It is not found among the living, but has not found among the dead. Most likely it is she howled, left in an empty room, one on the top floor of the house. Joey was silent, and Jimmy was sitting on his hands Anastasia and was unlikely to howl. It turns out, howling little French bulldog guard Kabanov with fear of the howling of several dogs! Ah, yes Ortipo, ah, yes lad!
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: Sarushka on November 21, 2009, 07:42:26 AM
Was Ortino already dead by the time of the executions? The only thing I've ever read of his death was in Carolyn Meyer's Anastasia: The Last Grand Duchess. Not exactly a reliable or primary historical source I dare say : \

I'm fairly sure Ortipo was present in the Ipatiev house. I'll check Alexandra's diary and see if there's any mention of her.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: blessOTMA on November 23, 2009, 02:18:17 PM

(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x232/KeeganYoung/th_scan0001-2.jpg) (http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x232/KeeganYoung/?action=view&current=scan0001-2.jpg)

(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x232/KeeganYoung/th_oaf12252qm-1.jpg) (http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x232/KeeganYoung/?action=view&current=oaf12252qm-1.jpg)
[/quote]

I have been looking at this photo of the resting Imperial children for many years and just now, because of the size of it, I can see that under thier sweaters, Anastasia and Tatiana  have on blouses I have seen from thier Crimea  trip of 1914... It's always jarring to see a something from thier royal lives show up in thier prison lives . But thank you for that big file!

As to the dogs body,  Pierre Gilliard identified it as Jemmy. As to the condition of Jemmy's  body when found , well
 it had spent most of that time frozen solid certainly. That would preserve it remarkably. It was placed there in high summer and retrieved in high summer, but we are talking about Siberia.

 As to the idea of the body being planted... it didn't seem the murders were that together at all. That might be given them too much credit for brains or time. It would mean Jemmy was living in the area well after the family. That hardly seems likely. And how many toy dogs would there be around there who were close enough to Jemmy to fool Gilliard ?

 Also it seems to me  tiny Jemmy could be easily killed in the botched mayhem the murder scene became.  It wouldn't take much, someone falling on him, or even stepping on him, much less the  bullets  flying everywhere. Jemmy could have been dead already when the guard with the baynet flicked him into the truck. The guard may have used  his baynet as a means to pick up and carry the poor dog.

Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: Sarushka on November 23, 2009, 02:24:51 PM
While we're on the topic...

Does anyone have a reliable source for Jemmy's gender? I only know that the canine corpse found in 1919 was female....
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: nena on November 23, 2009, 03:35:59 PM
If dog's gender found at Mine in 1919 was female, and if it was Jemmy, then it is more than obvious that Jemmy was female.

BUT, Anastasia, in letter(s) reffers to Jemmy as 'MOI' on April 28th 1918, not 'MOYA', and 'Moi's is said for expressing male gender, unlike in English 'My' may reffer to both genders. So it is logical that it was male. Dude, why those contradictions must happen...?

A.A. Tegleva:

I saw a dog that is extracted from the mine. This positive, Jimmy, a little dog of Anastasia's. It was her dog, which almost could not walk because she could not, for example, it is to climb the ladder, even the stairs inside the house. Anastasia always held her on her hands.

But simply Tegelva is repeating examination done by the Whites, who said that the dog was female.
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: Holly on November 23, 2009, 04:42:35 PM
Well, regardless of how she referred to her in a letter, the dog was Jemmy and the dog was female. Perhaps Anastasia referring to Jemmy as he/him was just an error? That happens a lot with pets. I'm not an expert on Russian grammar but is it possible that it was merely a mistake? Doesn't the use of "my" change with the subject of the sentence regardless of the gender of the speaker? Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.  =)
Title: Re: Pictures of Anastasia with Jemmy, Shibzik, etc.
Post by: NAOTMAA Fan on November 23, 2009, 09:20:41 PM

As to the dogs body,  Pierre Gilliard identified it as Jemmy. As to the condition of Jemmy's  body when found , well it had spent most of that time frozen solid certainly. That would preserve it remarkably. It was placed there in high summer and retrieved in high summer, but we are talking about Siberia.


Siberian temperatures is usually the argument I use when trying to explain the remarkable condition of the dog's corpse. However, in the chapter entitled "The Corpse of a Female Dog" in Summers and Mangold's The File on the Tsar, it blathers on endlessly about how the dog's organs would have turned to mush after two weeks in water, and after a month or two the hair would have completely loosened from the skin (which you can see around the hind legs). However, if the body was able to become encased and/ or sunk into mud/ sediment at the bottom of the mine (which could be possible if it had been thrown in first and then had eleven bodies tossed on top of it), this easily could have acted as some kind of shield from the elements; frogs do the same kind of thing during winter months to hibernate and keep from freezing to death. If this had happened, the mud would have frozen in the mine, as well as any water, and preserved the dog in it's own natural refrigerator. The mine itself was only about 30 meters deep, so it's quite possible for freezing to have happened. In addition, winter cools a body of water and the river bed, leaving it near frigid temperatures throughout most of spring and into the summertime after it has thawed. This would have kept temperatures in the mine relatively cold. Most woolly mammoths found today are in the remarkable state of preservation because of the fact they were encased in mud or tar in the same manner. Here's an article about a baby mammoth which has been deemed one of the most well preserved/ intact mammoths to date: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/05/mammoths/mueller-text

Anyways, when all is said and done, I personally believe the corpse belongs to Jemmy, and that Jemmy died inside the cellar room on the night of the executions. As to the argument of Jemmy's gender, she is commonly referred to as male (at least in most books read throughout my earlier youth). I do however believe that most anecdotes taken from letters refer to the dog as female. I don't have any readily available of course. In any case the corpse, being a female, kind of brings an end to any dispute. I can also say that from the photograph, the dog looks very much like some kind of black/ toy breed/ spaniel: aka Jemmy who was a King Charles Cavalier Spaniel. Trust me, I know my dog breeds. I own about 30 of them : D