Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Windsors => Topic started by: ChristineM on October 16, 2006, 04:36:07 PM

Title: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: ChristineM on October 16, 2006, 04:36:07 PM
A whimsy of a topic inspired by a rather (I suspect) tongue in cheek question as to whether one should curtsey to the Marchioness of Douro.

Nowadays it is not considered an obligation to curtsey.   The Queen, is, I understand, not particularly concerned whether or not those who meet her make this move.   I have had the privilege of meeting HM on more than one occasion.   Curtseying seemed to me entirely appropriate even automatic.   I also curtseyed on being presented to the Duke of Edinburgh.   When in the company of PssMoK, I have to confess, the very idea of curtseying did not enter my mind.

As portrayed in "The Queen", 'Cherie Blair' agonised over making a curtsey to 'The Queen'.   An avowed republican, her knees appeared to sieze up - it was a very funny moment.   How do posters feel about making this act - curtsey or bow - of respect?   To which royal - British or European - would you feel inclined to make this mark of respect.

tsaria 
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Dennis on October 16, 2006, 04:43:28 PM
According to Miss Manners, Americans should not courtsey or bow to anyone.  In her words, "That is why we had the revolution."
But, it is always a personal choice.

Having said that, the only persons I could see giving this courtesy to would be the Head of State and possible the spouse.

Otherwise, they are treated very politely with respect.
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Taren on October 16, 2006, 04:54:45 PM
Though I'm an American, if presented with the oppurtunity, I would curtsey to HM The Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh. Prince Charles maybe -since he is heir to the throne. The rest -I doubt it. I would consider it an act of respect to a thousand plus year institution that I know I, personally, hold in high esteem. Not only that, but I admire HM the Queen as well, as a monarch in her own right. I know that as an American, I wouldn't be expected to curtsey, and obviously no one should be forced to. It would be on the same par when meeting the President. I wouldn't show up to the White House wearing flip flops and yelling out "hey Dubya". You show up dressed like you weren't raised in a barn, you shake the man's hand, and call him Mr. President -even if you don't necessarily agree with everything he's done.
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: ChristineM on October 16, 2006, 05:01:48 PM
...and look where the revolution led - George W Bush!   What does Miss Manners make of him?   Of course, Americans are 'citizens' - we are 'subjects'.

I am perfectly happy being a loyal subject of HM Queen Elizabeth II.   To meet this remarkable little lady is a privilege in itself, well deserving a curtsey.   This is only one small gesture, but it conveys so much meaning - more than can be expressed in words.

tsaria

Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: ChristineM on October 16, 2006, 05:04:25 PM
Delightfully expressed Taren.   I think your attitude is echoed around the world.

tsaria
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Taren on October 16, 2006, 05:14:59 PM
Delightfully expressed Taren.   I think your attitude is echoed around the world.

tsaria

Thank you, Tsaria, but apparently it's not. The flip flop reference actually happened. A female sports team was visiting Washington and invited to the White House. Many showed up wearing flip flops and shorts. It was in the news for a little while, with many people remarking that the idea of etiquette has gone down the drain. It's the same thing on the IMDB message board for thr queen film. I'm sure most that post these things are just trying to get a reaction, but you wouldn't believe the amount of posts that say something like "if I met the queen I'd just be like 'hey b****"'" or "she's so old, why doesn't she just die already?". it's depressing.
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: ChristineM on October 16, 2006, 05:20:11 PM
I'm so glad I don't go there.   Perhaps I'm living my life in a romantic bubble.

tsaria
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: emeraldeyes on October 16, 2006, 06:21:26 PM
If I ever had the privilege of meeting HM, I would definitely curtsey, possibly to the Duke of E, probably to the Prince of Wales, and if I did curtsey to the POW, I would definitely curtsey to the Pincess of Wales, sorry  - Duchess of Cornwall.

I think it is a rather quaint way to show respect and to remind ourselves of a more genteel time, when manners meant more than just not posting on the internet in all caps. 
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Dasha on October 16, 2006, 06:40:59 PM
I would have to agree with the posters on the issue of curseying.  I would definitely curtsey if given the opportunity to meet Her Majesty, and her husband.  It is a sign of respect for the institution of Monarchy and ought to be observed, regardless if one is American, or British or what have you. 

Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Marlene on October 16, 2006, 08:45:32 PM
It is not against the law for Americans to curtsey.  In fact, I was raised to curtsey to my German relatives until I was 12.   I have been presented to the Queen, as well as other members of the RF, as well as several European sovereigns and other royals ... Actually, the British ceased to be subjects some years ago ..when the wording of the British nationality act changed subject to citizen.

...and look where the revolution led - George W Bush!   What does Miss Manners make of him?   Of course, Americans are 'citizens' - we are 'subjects'.

I am perfectly happy being a loyal subject of HM Queen Elizabeth II.   To meet this remarkable little lady is a privilege in itself, well deserving a curtsey.   This is only one small gesture, but it conveys so much meaning - more than can be expressed in words.

tsaria


Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Leuchtenberg on October 16, 2006, 08:52:18 PM
I would definitely bow to The Queen and to the Duke.  I am a British subject, so I've never considered what I would do in the case of say, the Queen of the Netherlands.  I am not her subject, but I would probably bow to her as well.

Would I bow to the Prince of Wales?  Doubtful.  Would I bow to him after he becomes King?  Probably.  Would I bow to Mrs. Simpson, er, I mean the Duchess of Cornwall?  No.    Would I bow to her after she becomes *insert whatever name the PR people decide to call her when Charles becomes King*?  No.

Bowing to Princess Michael?  Migosh, I'd probably just laugh at her.

I think it was Stephen Barry who wrote that Prince Charles instructed his girl friend at the time that she was NOT to curtsey to Princess Michael when they met her at some function.
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Leuchtenberg on October 16, 2006, 08:55:59 PM
It is not against the law for Americans to curtsey.  In fact, I was raised to curtsey to my German relatives until I was 12.   I have been presented to the Queen, as well as other members of the RF, as well as several European sovereigns and other royals ... Actually, the British ceased to be subjects some years ago ..when the wording of the British nationality act changed subject to citizen.

Canadian citizens whether or not they also  hold British citizenship are still considered subjects of HM.  When joining any branch of the civil service one must still make an oath to The Queen as a subject.
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: grandduchessella on October 16, 2006, 10:29:38 PM
...and look where the revolution led - George W Bush!   What does Miss Manners make of him?   Of course, Americans are 'citizens' - we are 'subjects'.


It also led to Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Franklin and Theodore (my favorite) Roosevelt. To them and to any president I would dress properly and show the proper respect and decorum. I've only met one President--Clinton--and it was a quickie handshake. That flip-flop attire at the White House created a minor firestorm and many people were like 'oh, what's the big deal?'. Well, it's the fact that you were being honored at a meeting at the White House and to get your sorry rear-end in proper attire and stand up straight, don't crack gum or your knuckles, and be on your best behavior.  ::)

If I met the Queen/King and her/his consort, I would curtsey. For non-crowned heads, I wouldn't think so. However, since I'm not liable to meet any of them, I guess it's a moot point for me.  :)

I just don't think there's anything wrong with basic manners and showing some class and dignity. As Emeraldeyes said, showing respect and harking back to a more genteel time.
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: basilforever on October 17, 2006, 04:29:45 AM
I'm so glad I don't go there.   Perhaps I'm living my life in a romantic bubble.

tsaria

I try to live my life in a romantic bubble.  :) The IMDB message-boards must be avoided, I see.

If I met the Sovereign of any land, and unless I deemed them evil, I would curtsey to them. Especially to my own Queen - EII -  I would curtsey to her and to the Duke of Edinburgh.

However if I was living in the regin of Victoria - I would curtsey to HM as well as the Prince and Princess of Wales and also of course I would curtsey to their precious first son and heir the Duke of Clarence.  :-*
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Grace on October 17, 2006, 05:49:43 AM
You'd do more than that, I think!  I'm imagining you throwing yourself at his feet, to begin with.  ;D ;D ;D 
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: basilforever on October 17, 2006, 05:59:56 AM
Ha ha.  ;D Well not in pubic I wouldn't throw myself at his feet. But in private - well I would try to behave with restraint and serenity.  ;D :D ;)
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: CHRISinUSA on October 17, 2006, 08:44:26 AM
I would definitely bow to The Queen and to the Duke.  I am a British subject, so I've never considered what I would do in the case of say, the Queen of the Netherlands.  I am not her subject, but I would probably bow to her as well.

Would I bow to the Prince of Wales?  Doubtful.  Would I bow to him after he becomes King?  Probably.  Would I bow to Mrs. Simpson, er, I mean the Duchess of Cornwall?  No.    Would I bow to her after she becomes *insert whatever name the PR people decide to call her when Charles becomes King*?  No.


Leuchtenberg, I'm confused by the logic. If you bow to the Queen and DoE, isn't it because you are showing respect to the kingly office, rather than to the individuals?  I mean, Elizabeth Windsor is by all accounts a lovely lady, but I doubt you'd bow to her were she a shopkeeper.

When Charles and Camilla ascend the throne, they will be holders of the same kingdly office.  Will that office be any less deserving of your respect than it is today when occupied by Elizabeth and Phillip?
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Marlene on October 17, 2006, 08:45:26 AM
Here is a link to the story.

None wore shorts

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/07/19/flipflop.flap.ap/


Delightfully expressed Taren.   I think your attitude is echoed around the world.

tsaria

Thank you, Tsaria, but apparently it's not. The flip flop reference actually happened. A female sports team was visiting Washington and invited to the White House. Many showed up wearing flip flops and shorts. It was in the news for a little while, with many people remarking that the idea of etiquette has gone down the drain. It's the same thing on the IMDB message board for thr queen film. I'm sure most that post these things are just trying to get a reaction, but you wouldn't believe the amount of posts that say something like "if I met the queen I'd just be like 'hey b****"'" or "she's so old, why doesn't she just die already?". it's depressing.
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Marlene on October 17, 2006, 08:46:28 AM


With this post I hope you will act with restraint ...

 :o

Ha ha.  ;D Well not in pubic I wouldn't throw myself at his feet. But in private - well I would try to behave with restraint and serenity.  ;D :D ;)
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Leuchtenberg on October 17, 2006, 10:36:06 AM
I would definitely bow to The Queen and to the Duke.  I am a British subject, so I've never considered what I would do in the case of say, the Queen of the Netherlands.  I am not her subject, but I would probably bow to her as well.

Would I bow to the Prince of Wales?  Doubtful.  Would I bow to him after he becomes King?  Probably.  Would I bow to Mrs. Simpson, er, I mean the Duchess of Cornwall?  No.    Would I bow to her after she becomes *insert whatever name the PR people decide to call her when Charles becomes King*?  No.


Leuchtenberg, I'm confused by the logic. If you bow to the Queen and DoE, isn't it because you are showing respect to the kingly office, rather than to the individuals?  I mean, Elizabeth Windsor is by all accounts a lovely lady, but I doubt you'd bow to her were she a shopkeeper.

When Charles and Camilla ascend the throne, they will be holders of the same kingdly office.  Will that office be any less deserving of your respect than it is today when occupied by Elizabeth and Phillip?

Yes,  the monarchy will be less deserving of my  respect because Charles and Camilla have made it so.   I have respect for the institution of the monarchy.  But once that institution has changed hands, so to speak, and become run into the ground....why should I respect it?

The monarchy is about, among other things, duty, selflessness, sacrifice, and dignity.   I'm sorry, but Charles and Camilla seem to have fallen short of the mark, very much so.

I don't expect Royalty to be perfect.  They are humans after all.  But, I do expect monarchs to do their best.   The Queen and the Duke are not perfect, yet they DO their best.  The Queen is about the monarchy.  However, unless the Prince of Wales does a complete turnabout when he becomes King, he will continue to behave as though the monarchy is all about him.   I don't dislike Charles at all.  I don't think he's evil.  But, he is selfish.  So how will he adequately be able to devote himself to duty and the people when what matters to him is only what he wants.  Qui vivra, verra.

The institution of monarchy will only be as good as the monarch who serves it.  And in the past few decades, Charles serves only himself.   :(

Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: basilforever on October 17, 2006, 10:37:43 AM


With this post I hope you will act with restraint ...

 :o

Ha ha.  ;D Well not in public I wouldn't throw myself at his feet. But in private - well I would try to behave with restraint and serenity.  ;D :D ;)

I did! There's no reason to be shocked. I was only joking besides!  :)
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Marlene on October 17, 2006, 10:57:53 AM
I was referring to the mispelling of a word    ???



With this post I hope you will act with restraint ...

 :o

Ha ha.  ;D Well not in pubic I wouldn't throw myself at his feet. But in private - well I would try to behave with restraint and serenity.  ;D :D ;)

I did! There's no reason to be shocked. I was only joking besides!  :)
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: basilforever on October 17, 2006, 11:01:42 AM
Oh God, I didn't notice that!  :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ I meant public of course.  :-[ :-[
Sorry, what a bad typo to make.
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Grace on October 17, 2006, 02:28:33 PM
That's rather comical, isn't it?!  ;D  - I never noticed it either, until the eagle eye of Marlene swooped!  :D :D 
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Marlene on October 17, 2006, 02:54:46 PM
oh, it just jumped out at me.

That's rather comical, isn't it?!  ;D  - I never noticed it either, until the eagle eye of Marlene swooped!  :D :D 
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Grace on October 17, 2006, 02:58:20 PM
Quote

Yes,  the monarchy will be less deserving of my  respect because Charles and Camilla have made it so.   I have respect for the institution of the monarchy.  But once that institution has changed hands, so to speak, and become run into the ground....why should I respect it?

The monarchy is about, among other things, duty, selflessness, sacrifice, and dignity.   I'm sorry, but Charles and Camilla seem to have fallen short of the mark, very much so.

I don't expect Royalty to be perfect.  They are humans after all.  But, I do expect monarchs to do their best.   The Queen and the Duke are not perfect, yet they DO their best.  The Queen is about the monarchy.  However, unless the Prince of Wales does a complete turnabout when he becomes King, he will continue to behave as though the monarchy is all about him.   I don't dislike Charles at all.  I don't think he's evil.  But, he is selfish.  So how will he adequately be able to devote himself to duty and the people when what matters to him is only what he wants.  Qui vivra, verra.

The institution of monarchy will only be as good as the monarch who serves it.  And in the past few decades, Charles serves only himself.   :(

I agree with every word of Leuchtenberg here.  Charles is not a bad man.  In fact, he is a very earnest and well meaning person on many issues.  But I think he is planning to change the monarchy in ways we don't know about now when his time comes - and it will change to suit him, in my opinion, not because he believes it's best for the people or what the people want. 
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: basilforever on October 18, 2006, 04:14:10 AM
oh, it just jumped out at me.

That's rather comical, isn't it?!  ;D  - I never noticed it either, until the eagle eye of Marlene swooped!  :D :D 

Well, everybody makes typos. Most people make them far more than me!
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Prince_Lieven on October 18, 2006, 10:42:40 AM
It's only a joke, bforever . . .
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Viscount on October 19, 2006, 02:58:17 PM

Just to throw a spanner in the works.....  in my humble and personal view - I dont see how you can pick and choose who to "show respect to" - the whole idea of a bow or a curtsey is to show repsect to their ROYAL rank and not the individual person's popularity.....  and surely popularity contests should be left to the press ??? 

Im sure that this will be unpopular but regardless of my personal thoughts, I would ALWAYS bow to PMOK as she is an HRH and should be afforded the same respect as any other ROYAL, be it HM, HRH, HSH, HH etc.....  and the same would apply to other foreign royals!


The Viscount



Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Grace on October 19, 2006, 03:52:07 PM
I would treat all members of the royal family with courtesy, but now that protocol has deemed bowing/curtseying optional, I would apply this only to those of the RF I deeply respect, such as Her Majesty and Prince Philip. 

These days, with this change in protocol, we are seeing this deferential act less and less but I still think it is appropriate for the Queen to be accorded this honor.  She has given her life to serving the monarchy and is above reproach.  Prince Philip is not exactly above reproach but his devotion to duty and his support of the Queen in her role cannot be questioned. 

The same cannot be said for any other members of the current RF, in my opinion.  I think people will pick and choose related to the esteem in which they hold the individual royal personage.



       
Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: emeraldeyes on October 19, 2006, 04:23:42 PM

Just to throw a spanner in the works.....  in my humble and personal view - I dont see how you can pick and choose who to "show respect to" - the whole idea of a bow or a curtsey is to show repsect to their ROYAL rank and not the individual person's popularity.....  and surely popularity contests should be left to the press ??? 

Im sure that this will be unpopular but regardless of my personal thoughts, I would ALWAYS bow to PMOK as she is an HRH and should be afforded the same respect as any other ROYAL, be it HM, HRH, HSH, HH etc.....  and the same would apply to other foreign royals!


The Viscount


I have to say that you raise a valid point.  It also seems to me that no matter what most of us claim we would do should we have the opportunity of meeting members of the RF, that we would probably be completely awed at the actuality of it, and would be curseying right and left la Mette Marit!  :P
Just the fact that all of us are here, posting and reading in this type of forum shows our fundamental repect/interest in royalty in general, and I believe this would ultimately be manifested in our behaviour.



Title: Re: The courtesy of the curtsey
Post by: Leuchtenberg on October 20, 2006, 03:14:05 PM
I would treat all members of the royal family with courtesy, but now that protocol has deemed bowing/curtseying optional, I would apply this only to those of the RF I deeply respect, such as Her Majesty and Prince Philip. 

These days, with this change in protocol, we are seeing this deferential act less and less but I still think it is appropriate for the Queen to be accorded this honor.  She has given her life to serving the monarchy and is above reproach.  Prince Philip is not exactly above reproach but his devotion to duty and his support of the Queen in her role cannot be questioned. 

The same cannot be said for any other members of the current RF, in my opinion.  I think people will pick and choose related to the esteem in which they hold the individual royal personage.



       

VERY well put, Grace.   I feel exactly the same.

Anyone suggesting  that Princess Michael merits the same respect and reverence as The Queen ought to reassess their standards.   :(