Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Yussupovs => Topic started by: Grand_Duke_Alexei on October 04, 2004, 08:10:48 PM

Title: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Grand_Duke_Alexei on October 04, 2004, 08:10:48 PM
Hey, I was wondering if someone could help me.  I heard that Felix Yussopov was a cross-dresser, and I am not sure if I should take this rumour seriously.  Can someone help me?
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Belochka on October 04, 2004, 08:48:18 PM
Hi Grand_Duke_Alexei,

Felix cautiously alludes to this in his memoir Lost Splendor. ::)
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: ashanti01 on October 04, 2004, 11:58:58 PM
In Greg Kings book about Felix, "The Man Who Killed Rasputin" he does write that Felix took a liking to dressing in womans clothings and applied make up.
In his laters years he would apply so much make up that when he smiled it would crack and fall into his plate. :o ILL....
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Annie on October 05, 2004, 07:55:38 AM
He actually gives some detailed accounts of his cross dressing escapades in Lost Splendor. He was a young teenager and passed for a girl cabaret singer! He didn't mention if he kept it up after he outgrew his mother's clothes;) but he did always wear makeup, especially mascara, even into old age.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Forum Admin on October 05, 2004, 08:49:30 AM
There is a true amusing story about Felix dressing in his mother's gown and wearing her famous Pelegrina pearl necklace to the best restaurant in Petersburg, and he was "acting the part" and twirling the necklace when the string broke and the pearls went all over the place...All the waiters on their hands and knees chasing after the pearls rolling all over the floor...
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Grand_Duke_Alexei on October 05, 2004, 05:14:01 PM
Lol Admin that is a hilarious story!   ;D  Thanks everyone for the book recommendations, I will be sure to read, "Lost Splendor", and "The Man Who Killed Rasputin."
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: aligertz on January 13, 2005, 02:18:24 PM
 :)hello all
just something about the life of Felix that has always stumped me...the prevalent wisdom in the more modern histories seem to suggest the probability that the Prince was a closeted gay man,...they point to his effeminacy,his lavish costume balls,his infatuation with Marie Antoinette and his own pleasure in dressing up in drag.the same wisdom says he was initially drawn to Rasputin because he felt his hypnotic powers could cure him of his homosexual impulses.
first let me declare there is NOTHING WRONG with being gay!
secondly would not Irina have known? :-X
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Valmont on January 13, 2005, 02:23:50 PM

And your point is........??
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: aligertz on January 13, 2005, 02:44:50 PM
my point is simply that IF he were what the contemporary scholars say he were then why did he not pursue psychoanalaysis in exile to continue his struggle to 'free' himself of his 'addiction'.the point is that Felix was a liar all his life,pampered half to death,used Irina,killed Rasputin just to justify his own mundane and unnecessary existence.AND the point in the end is that he is one of the most unpalatable figures in the Imperial saga.
he and the staryets deserved one another! :)
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Valmont on January 13, 2005, 03:05:23 PM
And what is what his contemporary scholars said he was??

Please advise.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Georgiy on January 13, 2005, 03:29:23 PM
Quote
the point is that Felix was a liar all his life,pampered half to death,used Irina,killed Rasputin just to justify his own mundane and unnecessary existence.AND the point in the end is that he is one of the most unpalatable figures in the Imperial saga.


There is probably quite a lot of truth to this, I quite agree that a major part of his motivation to kill Rasputin was to make himself the talk of the town (as it were).

I have heard that Irina knew of his inclinations.  Maybe Yusupov did think Rasputin could help him overcome it. It is after-all a sin in the Orthodox Church. Probably full and frank confession with a Priest would have been of far more spiritual value and help to him than talking to Rasputin though!

If I have offended anyone with this post, I ask your forgiveness.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Johnny on January 13, 2005, 03:34:06 PM
Quote
my point is simply that IF he were what the contemporary scholars say he were then why did he not pursue psychoanalaysis in exile to continue his struggle to 'free' himself of his 'addiction'.the point is that Felix was a liar all his life,pampered half to death,used Irina,killed Rasputin just to justify his own mundane and unnecessary existence.AND the point in the end is that he is one of the most unpalatable figures in the Imperial saga.
he and the staryets deserved one another! :)

Not only I don't find him unpalatable, I find him extremely fascinating. I don't really think he saw Rasputin to cure himself. I admire him for having the courage to persue a totally taboo lifestyle. He was a very refined man. And has it ever occured to you that he might have actually been bi-sexual? There is such a thing, you know? In that case he didn't even lie to Irina. Maybe Irina knew about his past but didn't care as long as he no longer fooled around after their marriage. The guy looked like a movie-star, had taste, was fun, was elegant and filthy-rich. He was cerainly a great catch. Speculating is an easy thing to do. The reality is that we will never know whether he killed Rasputin for other than patriotic reasons.  
As for the two deserving each other, I like Rasputin too. He was much better than many of the royals surrounding him.

Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: aligertz on January 13, 2005, 03:38:29 PM
'contemporary' means today or current.They say NOW he was gay.I say he was a narcissist who used everyone and everything in his path.now as for your 'advise' please advise me as to what you seek and ill do my best to provide  ???
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Valmont on January 14, 2005, 09:49:12 AM
I am not seeking anything, I just want to know  what your point is.
First, you start this thread with a question, You want to know if Felix was gay, then in your first posting you say :
"first let me declare there is NOTHING WRONG with being gay!
secondly would not Irina have known?  ".
As far as I remeber, I do not recall someone in this forum  saying being gay is wrong....but I get the idea that you are somehow defending him, which is ok, but I do not where you want to get with this opinion...
then in your second  post, you said he used Irina and that he killed rasputing to justify himself, so I still do not know what you seek regarding the question  you started this thread with...
I do not know if you know something about Felix Yussupov besides the fact that he claimed he killed Rasputin.
"Lost Splendor" even  thou I think the book is not a very reliable source historically, I think Felix expresed his points of view regarding several things  about his life, or at leat  he describes  the way he wanted things would have been, that I do not know. Maybe if you read it first, then you will have a lot of your questions, answered.

Best regards
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 14, 2005, 10:13:21 AM
I do not think Fekix was ever in any closet. And as for  the opinions of others on being gay, you might check a few former postings about the subject. It got pretty heated.
Cheers,
Robert
[also not closeted]
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: ashanti01 on January 14, 2005, 11:37:13 AM
Felix really did not seem to be in the closet, from what I have read it was basically known.

Irina must have heard things at some point, and more than likely just accepted it. Why? I have never known, she did stay at his side for what over 40 years?

They had a rather odd relationship but what do I know?
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Valmont on January 14, 2005, 11:38:46 AM
I agree with both of you, 100%..
Besides, he seemed to be pretty happy being the way he was...
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: rskkiya on January 14, 2005, 12:48:23 PM
Felix was simply Felix --colourful and perhaps narsistisic, showy, vain, childish and in many ways charming ... It's hard to attach late 20th /21st century "gender identities" to people from the turn of the century Russia.

Is it important?

rskkiya
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Valmont on January 14, 2005, 02:10:31 PM
Not at all... at least not to me..

Best Reagards,

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Janet_W. on January 14, 2005, 02:51:59 PM
Since sexuality is such an important part of who most (if not all) of us are, I think it is of importance in studying a person's life. But I have difficulty thinking that Felix would be in the closet about anything, at least for very long!  ;)  From what I've read, he pretty much did what he pleased. Occasionally he'd become too outrageous, receive a scolding or more severe censure, then subsequently practice a certain modicum of discretion . . . for awhile. A fascinating person, but undoubtedly a headache to his mother, Irina, and others who hoped for some maturity in his personality. I think the combination of war, revolution, exile, comparative poverty, then war again, and of course the trial re: the misrepresentation of Irina in Rasputin and the Empress--plus Felix's love for his daughter and creeping old age--finally accomplished what mere mortals (his parents, tutors, and extended family) could not.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Martyn on January 14, 2005, 03:04:28 PM
Quite so Janet.  Felix's journey through life was both colourful and complex.  Some of us have difficulty with the fact that he killed Rasputin, but we sort of have to take him at his word when he insists that he was acting for the greater good.
As for his relationship with Irina, as we have said in other threads, no one will ever understand what it was that bound those two together so closely.  It is rumoured that they both had their differing love interests, but even if that is the case, they stayed together and were close, almost to the point that their only child felt slightly excluded.
Janet is right when she says that our sexuality defines who we are; I happen to think that you can't define Felix's nonetheless.  Felix came from a world and lived in an age where almost nothing was forbidden to him (and you could argue murder as well). He fully understood his powers of attraction and he enjoyed them to the full.
Personally I can only think of him as Felix the Incomparable..........
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Janet_W. on January 14, 2005, 03:12:45 PM
Yes, in that respect--the breaking of rules--Felix would seem to have something in common with Elisabeth of Romania (the eldest daughter of Queen Marie and King Ferdinand) . . . but, despite his capriciousness, I think Felix would be, by far, the better person to know. He did have some nobility of character--coming through for others who had fallen on hard times, giving money to resistance groups during the Nazi occupation, etc.-- whereas Elisabeth seems to have been--from what others have written--completely without redemption.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Valmont on January 14, 2005, 03:45:58 PM
I agree Janet, After all, whom do you think had a great impact on Poor Old  Uncle Valmont's personality ??
Now you know..
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Janet_W. on January 14, 2005, 04:03:49 PM
The Return of Uncle Val! Huzzah!  :D
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Reed on January 14, 2005, 05:06:43 PM
Having not posted for a while on here...I just couldn't resist this thread.  I think Felix was one of the most fascinating people in Imperial Russia.  He didn't seem to me to be in the closet.  He was open in his books about some of his exploits.  I agree we can never know what attracts two people together and why they may stay in the relationship.  Case in point the recent movie De-lovely about Cole Porter.  He was cultured, good looking, rich and a bad boy at times.....sounds like some of the guys in the press today!!  
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Annie on January 14, 2005, 06:51:25 PM
I think it was pretty much common knowledge, but he never came right out and said it. I heard that at the time he wrote Lost Splendor, admitting to being gay was punishable in France (where he lived) by being sent to labor camps busting rocks in the Pyrannes mountains! No wonder he didn't say it! But when you read his stories, he always mentions things like 'my secret  life' ,'my double life', 'my scandelous reputation' and he did openly admit to cross dressing ;)
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Valmont on January 14, 2005, 07:00:29 PM
So, if you use common sense... would that be "being in the closet"??....
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: aligertz on January 15, 2005, 01:29:50 AM
Dear Friends All'
since i am the one who started this tsunami i should say that,in retrospect,i should have called it 'Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man who was being blackmailed by Rasputin?'AHA! :o a conspiracy theory! :D now whom among you can resist a good juicy one?
Rasputin could well have known of Felix's 'double life' and threatened to start spilling the beans to the Press
and so bring down a House that made this Don Trump guy look like a busboy!
I promise!before i post next time anywhere ill review my notes!

thanks for bearing with me :)

aligertz
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Olga on January 15, 2005, 08:56:22 AM
Quote
And has it ever occured to you that he might have actually been bi-sexual? There is such a thing, you know?


I can confirm this.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Forum Admin on January 15, 2005, 09:56:37 AM
Once again, people in the 21st century are attempting to force historical figures into modern perspectives without examing the actual views and perspectives of the times.  At the turn of the 19th to 20th century, there was no such notion of a homosexual, bisexual or heterosexual person.  It was quite common for married couples to have children together and have "discrete liasons" outside of marriage, with persons of either sex. The film "Maurice" shows a rather accurate portrayel for example.

Do some reading on the subject and you will begin to see that there was much greater "fluidity" for lack of a better term, of sexuality at the time.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: JM on January 15, 2005, 10:03:04 AM
I can't see Felix ever shutting his sexuality in a closet, nevermind becoming "closeted."  I don't know, but he always seemed to me to be quite confident and open minded. Admirable qualities!  :D
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Martyn on January 15, 2005, 12:13:24 PM
Quote
Once again, people in the 21st century are attempting to force historical figures into modern perspectives without examing the actual views and perspectives of the times.  At the turn of the 19th to 20th century, there was no such notion of a homosexual, bisexual or heterosexual person.  It was quite common for married couples to have children together and have "discrete liasons" outside of marriage, with persons of either sex. The film "Maurice" shows a rather accurate portrayel for example.

Do some reading on the subject and you will begin to see that there was much greater "fluidity" for lack of a better term, of sexuality at the time.


Who are you aiming this remark at?  I think that I was trying to suggest that Felix's world was one that is perhaps beyond our comprehension.  Certainly I am not trying to force my definitions onto him.
Is it really so wrong for people to look back with our knowledge and values and try to comprehend what made him tick anyway?  I think that I made it quite clear that Felix was quite simply Felix, who defies all labelling......
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Valmont on January 17, 2005, 09:23:28 AM
I agree Martyn,  He was just Felix...
On the other hand, that theory about Rasputin blackmailing Felix,  is hilarious, at leat to me.  A lot of People knew Felix was  a Cross dresser, even his family, and  that, among other things was   the reason why Sandro and Xenia did not want, at the beggining,  their precious Irina marring this "Character"...besides, based on Felix personality, I do not think he would care much what the press said...  The IF??.. well, that is another story...

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Forum Admin on January 17, 2005, 09:27:03 AM
Quote

Who are you aiming this remark at?  I think that I was trying to suggest that Felix's world was one that is perhaps beyond our comprehension.  Certainly I am not trying to force my definitions onto him.
Is it really so wrong for people to look back with our knowledge and values and try to comprehend what made him tick anyway?  I think that I made it quite clear that Felix was quite simply Felix, who defies all labelling......


Martyn, relax. I was not referencing you at all, rather the discussion about "out of the closet" and blackmail...

FA
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Martyn on January 17, 2005, 11:43:18 AM
Sorry.  Very grumpy when I posted.  Profuse apologies.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Reed on January 17, 2005, 12:04:02 PM
If I remember correctly we had a similar discussion on Felix's relationship with GD Dimitri.  I agree Felix defies classification.  He enjoyed life to the fullest and with his money was able to do so...even after the revolution.  The idea that Rasputin was blackmailing him doesn't seem credible, simply because of the fact that everyone seemed to know what he was doing anyway.  I think I would go more with the idea that he was spurned by Rasputin.  But....who knows!!  The life he experienced would be different because of the times and culture....coming out of the closet meant that you went in to get your coat.....that is, if you didn't have a servant to fetch it for you.  I still say he is one of the most fascinating individuals of the period.  What made him tick, we can only conjecture.  But isn't fun doing it!!!!
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Janet_W. on January 17, 2005, 05:23:40 PM
Hmm . . . wouldn't "coming out of the closet" meant you had just used the facilities?  ;)
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on January 17, 2005, 11:54:39 PM
Quote
Once again, people in the 21st century are attempting to force historical figures into modern perspectives without examing the actual views and perspectives of the times.  At the turn of the 19th to 20th century, there was no such notion of a homosexual, bisexual or heterosexual person....


Umm.  Anyone recall Oscar Wilde?   :-*

But seriously -- according to Theo Aronson in "Prince Eddy and the Homosexual Underworld," the word "homosexual" was coined by a Hungarian doctor in 1869, and enjoyed a wide (and obviously understood) usage in London society as early as the 1880s.  So, deferring to Mr Aronson's research, I think we must question the assertion that "there was no such notion of a homosexual person" at the turn of the last century.  

Additionally, the children's author, Noel Streatfeild, encountered several open and acknowledged lesbian households in London when she arrived there in 1915 to commence her war-time work in the theater. (Angela Bull's biography of Streatfeild -- I forget what it's called...)
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Martyn on January 18, 2005, 05:22:46 AM
Thanks for that Penny - very illuminating.  I still take issue with the assumption that we are trying to impose our definitions and values on a different era; your comments have helped to show that the concept of homosexuality was not entirely unknown.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: DOMOVOII on January 18, 2005, 11:08:12 AM
Quote

Umm.  Anyone recall Oscar Wilde?   :-*





Oscar had a devoted wife called Constance..... what does this clarify? Two sons too.... which contrevenes the notion of the modern gay man.

Perhaps what's confused the issue is that although the Victorians may have had a brave new word for the  "situation", in effect, it was really just a classification; in a social context there was no homosexuality...because it was against the law, for many( the Code Napoleonin France  granted certain allowances and Frederik the Gt, also; "as long as it didn't scare the horses"!?!) and because it defied religious teachings .

Yes "relations"occurred  the within same sex, but beyond that no prospect of a modern "partner-ing" situation. (Living together in a state of union protected under and by law.)

Go back to the start of the question and insert "open" instead of closetted. No is the simple answer. Was he closeted...no is the answer....

If you can't be out and open as a gay man, you can't be closeted either. To my mind, a closet exists only in a society where homosexuals can live openly. Only when Gays and Lesbians are able to choose not to live in fear or shame can other's choose not to live that way.

Besides, Felix pleased himself....many gay men would find the idea of dressing in women's clothing abhorrent, and a love of fine things, though highly attentuated in Gay men particularly is by no means a distinguishing feature... Style, drama, flair the same applies, what defines a gay man is his sexuality, not his sensibilties.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Reed on January 18, 2005, 11:56:36 AM
"Besides, Felix pleased himself....many gay men would find the idea of dressing in women's clothing abhorrent, and a love of fine things, though highly attentuated in Gay men particularly is by no means a distinguishing feature... Style, drama, flair the same applies, what defines a gay man is his sexuality, not his sensibilties. "

Well said DOMOVOII!!
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: DOMOVOII on January 18, 2005, 12:22:37 PM
Thanks... but what I should have said was; a gay man is defined by his sexual identity.

Felix, as far as I have read, did not identify himself as a homosexual or with having "leanings", or having had many experiences to suggest positively otherwise. Many young people have a curiousity towards members of their own sex; a "phase" --which is the very most that could ever be attributed to Felix, and even then with no real certainty.

Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on January 18, 2005, 12:36:57 PM
Quote

... in a social context there was no homosexuality...because it was against the law...


With respect, I disagree.  ::)

The law is an artificial limit set on human nature.  It's necessary, of course, but it doesn't nullify what's already there.  Homosexuality absolutely existed in society, however "underground" it might have been.  The law and other artificial social conventions forced it there -- but these men still existed, and still absolutely were what they were.  It's genetic, not a choice -- they couldn't stop being homosexual any more than I could stop being white.  Sure, I could get a tan, and a Victorian gay man could get a wife -- but we're still respectively white and gay underneath the artiface.

I am so very hesitant to rob these men -- often very brave in the face of their society's norms -- of their identity by accepting the claim that they couldn't have existed because they didn't have our modern verbiage or "enlightened" laws.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on January 18, 2005, 12:46:28 PM
Quote
Felix, as far as I have read, did not identify himself as a homosexual or with having "leanings", or having had many experiences to suggest positively otherwise. Many young people have a curiousity towards members of their own sex; a "phase" --which is the very most that could ever be attributed to Felix, and even then with no real certainty.


I'm not dog-piling on you, Domovoii!  Just another interesting comment to add my two cents to...  :D

I can't recall hearing or reading of Felix ever referring to himself as "homosexual" or any other similar word -- and I'm not sure that he ever would have thought of "describing" himself anyway.  He lived in a non-Oprahfied time, and belonged to a class that didn't think it necessary to explain themselves for the most part.

But Yusupov's "phase" at least lasted until the late 1950s or early 1960s -- I know one man who knew him then and recalled VERY overt verbal and physical advances from the elderly Felix almost every time he visited him.  
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Johnny on January 18, 2005, 03:14:32 PM
Quote


Besides, Felix pleased himself....many gay men would find the idea of dressing in women's clothing abhorrent, and a love of fine things, though highly attentuated in Gay men particularly is by no means a distinguishing feature... Style, drama, flair the same applies, what defines a gay man is his sexuality, not his sensibilties.

Moreover, there are many heterosexual men who are into crossdressing. In fact crossdressing and sexual orientation are not exactly related. I know of a rather well known musician (I will not give his/her name) who was born a man, married to a woman, then had a sex-change becoming a woman, but keeping the genetically heterosexual orientation, therefore becoming a lesbian. I also heard of couple other similar cases.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: DOMOVOII on January 18, 2005, 04:04:31 PM
Firstly Penny I feel I need to explain, when I said that gay people have a choice, I meant that that choice was whether or not to live openly in their community. To be out, not what I think you believe I meant; that these people have to chosen not to be themselves. Not my meaning at all. And yes, the pioneers who advanced the fledgling movement for equality should be applauded, in no way do I want to denigrate those who suffered so that I today, can marry my partner. I thank them sincerely.

I came (read= exploded!!) out over fifteen years ago now,.... easy for me to do, and yes it might have been easy for Felix, today, but in his social circumstances he would still have had a pretty proscribed choice in his own future. Which doesn't mean that he didn't have (from your posting Penny) shall I say, something more than leanings  but he didn't live as a Gay man as there was no option of it.

Incidentally, I had a friend who said he was involved in the Elton John cocaine scandal of the late 80's, I have another friend who'd dated a particularly well known footballer from Man Utd... apparently. The only thing is I'll never know either way if they were really telling the truth.

Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: James_Davidov on January 18, 2005, 10:00:28 PM
I find it annoying when Felix is labeled a homosexual.  I believe from the evidence available he was defiantly bisexual, but to say he was fully gay based on the cross-dressing thing isn’t quite right, I was under the impression that cross dressers weren’t always gay, and that it varied??  I’m not really sure about that whole area for certain, though I defiantly think that Felix would not have been perplexed by whatever sexuality he was (while I think most people would be if they were as out there as him), Felix was “beautiful, wealthy and wise” he could really do what he wanted… I defiantly do not see him as a passionate orthodox type either, based on that, his initial contact with Rasputin probably wasn’t on a spiritual basis, such with Alexandra, but more that the monk was becoming ‘infamously in vogue’
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Reed on January 19, 2005, 10:39:05 AM
I don't think anyone is trying necessarily to label Felix.  That is the interesting thing about him.  He defies classification.  Besides I don't like grouping people into some kind of box.  Every person is an individual and generalities never work well.  Felix was a product of his time and station in life and became a colorful blip in history.  Maybe I'm a little jealous...lol  Again I say he lived his life to the fullest and mostly by his own rules.  The rest of us may be looking at him from the humdrum of our own worlds.    :D
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 19, 2005, 11:03:48 AM
Quote
I defiantly do not see him as a passionate orthodox type either
 

We are also forgetting that he was a murderer.

(had he done what he did in our modern society, not only would he not be viewed as a "passionate orthodox type",  he would be viewed as a violent criminal)....  :-/


Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Annie on January 19, 2005, 11:59:28 AM
Quote
 

We are also forgetting that he was a murderer.

(had he done what he did in our modern society, not only would he not be viewed as a "passionate orthodox type",  he would be viewed as a violent criminal)....  :-/




No, he'd have gotten away with it because he was rich, just like OJ and the Ramseys :(

Despite his interest in the occult and his love for partying, from what I've read of him he did remain devoutly Orthodox, at least technically.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Reed on January 19, 2005, 01:19:01 PM
I suppose whether he was a murderer or a patriot would depend on which side of Rasputin, one would fall, a supporter or detractor.  There were many that felt Felix's act was an act of patriotism....just too late.  And before I get flamed, I'm not condoning the murder of another human being as justifiable or acceptable.  Desperate people do desperate things.  
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 19, 2005, 02:15:12 PM
Quote

No, he'd have gotten away with it because he was rich, just like OJ and the Ramseys :(

I don't think that it's necessarily true... In any case, he was no longer rich after the revolution. But even if he got away with it, we would have still considered him to be a murderer, just like OJ, and the Ramseys (who by the way probably did not do it IMHO  - the Ramseys that it, OJ definitely did it  ;))
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 19, 2005, 02:19:42 PM
Quote
I suppose whether he was a murderer or a patriot would depend on which side of Rasputin, one would fall, a supporter or detractor.  There were many that felt Felix's act was an act of patriotism....just too late.    
I would consider his act, even if justifiable in some way, an act of a vigilante, i.e. he took the law into his own hands because he felt he knew best. No trial, no jury, just a sentence based on personal feelings and opinion. That's murder in my book... sorry.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Valmont on January 19, 2005, 02:30:36 PM
I agree with you, but I think that it also depends on which side are you. For example, do you remember the plot to Kill Hitler?.  The people involved were seen  as traitors by some people, but also some other (who were against Hitler) saw them as heroes. Although is still Murder,  it all depends on  what side you are...that is the way people will see you..
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Reed on January 19, 2005, 02:53:33 PM
I would agree with you Helen.  No one should be allowed to set themselves up as judge, jury, and executioner.  Valmont has an excellent point about Hitler.  The men who tried to assinate him are today viewed as heros.  IMHO many view Felix and the rest as in the same light.  Of course the IF did not.  I still want to be clear that I don't condone in anyway what was done in the name of saving the Empire.  However, I can understand the whys that some felt it was necessary.  
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Reed on January 19, 2005, 02:54:46 PM
That should be assassinate....ooopppsss! :-/
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 19, 2005, 03:25:00 PM
Quote
I agree with you, but I think that it also depends on which side are you. For example, do you remember the plot to Kill Hitler?.  The people involved were seen  as traitors by some people, but also some other (who were against Hitler) saw them as heroes. Although is still Murder,  it all depends on  what side you are...that is the way people will see you..
 This is a good point, although I find it difficult to compare Rasputin to Hitler, but I suppose many people saw him in much the same way at the time - as someone who was ruining the country politically. It's interesting though that they decided to assasinate Rasputin and not the Empress, who was the real culprit if you think about it. That was probably because R was a good scape goat and an easy target. If they were real "heros" as they liked to view themselves later on, they may have done it in a more open manner, not the way they did, first luring this unsuspecting man into Felix's confidence for months, then inviting him to his house under the pretense of having him over for a party. It was really underhanded and sleazy and cowardly the way they went about it. Not many people would be capable of doing something like this, it took a very specific type of a personality to be able to pull it off like that. And after the murder, they proceeded to formulate a whole scenario to make themselves look innocent , even shooting a dog to make it look like that's what it was. It's just really shady. Obviously they knew what they were doing was wrong and were trying to get away with it by lying about it.  Only much later did they admit to what they did, and Felix certainly milked it for all it was worth. The only one who seemed to feel any remorse for the fact of the murder itself was Dmitri who refused to talk about it.

But in any case, this is a whole different topic, I am sorry for digressing!
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Martyn on January 24, 2005, 07:48:33 AM
Quote

  He lived in a non-Oprahfied time, and belonged to a class that didn't think it necessary to explain themselves for the most part.

  


That is absolutely it.  No need to explain themselves.  I am rather tempted to add that this sistill the modus vivendi of some royal families, particularly the British one, which is why the public never fails to be amazed at the truth of their private lives.  They simply did not and do not live according to the same rules, values and principles as the rest of us, and see no reason why they should, or why it should be any of our business.  To quote Alix of Wales - 'Basta'!
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Greg_King on January 24, 2005, 08:40:34 AM
I spoke to quite a few people who knew Felix, before-and especially after-I wrote my book on him, and have no difficulty in stating my absolute belief that he was homosexual.  Openly is another matter, discretion being the dominant element of both the period and of his class.  But the only closet Felix was ever in was his mother's, and that, to steal her clothes.

Greg King
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Reed on January 24, 2005, 10:41:06 AM
LOL...Greg!!  And I understand he made a very attractive woman!!  
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 24, 2005, 02:15:38 PM
He was very popular with the officers at various night clubs.  :D
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: ashanti01 on January 26, 2005, 01:32:01 AM
That is true, and I do believe I read somewhere he caught the attention of a certain King...
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 26, 2005, 08:24:15 AM
Quote
That is true, and I do believe I read somewhere he caught the attention of a certain King...



Yes, it was Bertie of England...  ;)
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: ashanti01 on January 26, 2005, 01:22:25 PM
I keep reading about his relationship with men, but nothing about woman? I'm sure at some point he had to have had a mistress or other love intrest, even if he was a homesexual, right???

Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: ilias_gr on March 13, 2005, 01:04:12 PM
For God's sake!

Couldn't he just have been a bisexual -liking men and women- and had sex with ,men occasionally and that was it?

Why all the debate?

The question is: Do we have any proof or some sort of indication of that?
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Valmont on March 14, 2005, 09:33:13 AM
Proof or some sort of indication..... about what?
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: PucknDC on March 14, 2005, 11:25:08 AM
Let's not forget about Ella's husband as well.....I suppose like anything else, time and rank had a lot to do with whether someone was closeted or not...let's face it, there were (are) prbably other closeted royals, and they are to be pitied really. Another example that Royal life is really like a gilded cage!
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: ilias_gr on March 14, 2005, 04:28:25 PM
Quote
Proof or some sort of indication..... about what?


Proof or indication that he had liaisons with other men
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Valmont on March 14, 2005, 05:44:35 PM
Griff in  another thead (WAS IRINA IN LOVE WITH FELIX?), wrote the following:

"I know of at least one affair that Felix had with the son of a publisher of Russian memoirs.  I became aquainted with the son in NYC and he told me of how Felix had spotted him on the beach in the French Rivera.  Their affair was apparently fairly brief but it was long enough for the son have heard a great many stories about the Romanoffs from Felix."

Make your own conclusions...    

Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Sergei on March 14, 2005, 07:32:38 PM
Quote
For God's sake!

The question is: Do we have any proof or some sort of indication of that?


Edvard Radzinki in his book on Rasputin mentions that St. Petersburg society was well aware of Felix's sexual relationships with men. From memory, society referred to "making mistakes in grammar" as a euphimism for homosexuality. One of the Romanov relations ("Bimbo" ) was convinced that there had been a sexual relationship between Felix and Rasputin.
As someone else on this thread pointed out if you read "Lost Splendour" Felix's own references to his "secret" life, his "double" life are pretty obvious. He would have been more open if those secrets were to do with liaisons with dancers of the Imperial ballet ( a well established tradition with the nobility   ;)) or with women. Reading between the lines I would also suggest that the concerns of the Dowager Empress and GD Ella about his intended marriage to Irinia and his need to assuage these were to do with their knowledge of his sexuality (or of his mistakes in grammar). One could say that their concerns were solely about his champagne-and-dance-till-dawn lifestyle but these were women used to seeing men of their class (GD Michael Alexandrovich, Edward V11...) doing the same thing.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Vera_Narishkin on April 02, 2005, 07:36:19 AM
Felix was not a closet homosexual - he was definitely AC-DC with a preference for beautiful men. I know this as my father, who was Felix's cousin and knew him well, reported that Felix was much eneamoured with my father, but my father not being that way inclined rejected Felix's advances.

I hope this clears things up for you.

:)
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: bluetoria on April 02, 2005, 09:24:43 AM
Quote

I know this as my father, who was Felix's cousin and knew him well, reported that Felix was much eneamoured with my father, but my father not being that way inclined rejected Felix's advances.

 :)


How very interesting!
Apart from his unwanted advances, did your father have many other recollections of Felix which you could possibly share with us? And did your father meet any other members/descendants of the IF? (If you don't mind my asking  :))
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: RichC on April 02, 2005, 11:46:26 AM
Quote
I spoke to quite a few people who knew Felix, before-and especially after-I wrote my book on him, and have no difficulty in stating my absolute belief that he was homosexual.  Openly is another matter, discretion being the dominant element of both the period and of his class.  But the only closet Felix was ever in was his mother's, and that, to steal her clothes.

Greg King


FYI, Believe it or not, not all men who dress in women's clothes are gay, bisexual, etc.  Some are completely heterosexual.  On the other hand, some gay or bisexual men dress up  in women's clothes, make-up, shoes, etc. while others do not.

The point is that a man's cross-dressing proclivities have no bearing on his sexual orientation.  I want people to be clear on that.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Tasha_R on April 27, 2005, 02:17:24 PM
I was under the impression that Felix used to "cross-dress", as some put it, as a method to disguise himself.  Remember, Felix was a  prince, and well-known in his day - similar to the royalty and movie stars of our day.  No doubt it would have been advantageous to be able to disguise oneself to get out, and sometimes, as Felix had done, to act out some mischief or be someplace he oughtn't.

If I remember correctly, the first time he did this, he was quite young and did so at the insistence of his brother and a female friend who wanted to take him out to someplace where he wasn't supposed to be.  Finding out that they were able to get away with it enabled them to become more brazen over time.

I have a picture of my own grandfather doing something quite similar, and I can assure you, he did not have other effeminate tendencies (well... at least to our knowlege :-)).

Sincere regards,
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Valmont on April 27, 2005, 02:35:37 PM
Yes Tasha, The Only difference was that Felix kept doing it even after his parents knew about it. Nicholas, his brother, took the responsability for the first time Felix was caught, But Felix kept doing it afterwards....

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Tasha_R on April 27, 2005, 03:50:30 PM
Because it worked  ;)
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Valmont on April 27, 2005, 05:12:47 PM
I guess because that was what  pumped his tires.... Obviously he kept doing it because he found something he liked about it... I just wish I could come  across one (or ALL) of his diaries...but maybe the world is not ready yet for them...

Arturo Vega Llausás
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Carrot on May 09, 2005, 07:53:02 PM
There is an interesting mention of this subject in Alexander Vassiliev’s book “Beauty in exile” (Harry N.Abrams, 2000). Baroness Anastasia von Nolken, formerly a well-known Parisian model, recalls working at Yusoupoff fashion house Irfe: “Felix Yousoupoff was a very eccentric man… His house was reminiscent of an Eastern palace: all the fitting rooms were lined in grey velvet, as if they were in Turkey. Felix himself received clients in a turban and Eastern robe, looking like a khan with his favorite bulldog. His spouse, on the contrary, was very modest and didn’t like us, the models, to curtsey when we met. Apparently because of his eccentricity, Felix was not averse to trying on one dresses or another to show everyone how it should be worn .” (p.282)
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Tasha_R on May 10, 2005, 09:49:37 AM
Thank you for sharing.

Sincere regards,
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Annette on August 04, 2005, 07:37:42 AM
Hi

I worked with a gentleman years ago who had met Felix at a lunch as a child when my friend was staying with his grandmother in Paris.  He said that Felix was very old, extremely effeminate and wore far too much badly applied makeup.  

Annette
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: imperial angel on October 27, 2005, 10:56:24 AM
Fascinating thread, I have read every post and now I will post my own opionion. I have always believed that, from everything I read that he was gay, in the sense of being attracted too, and having affairs with men. But he was bisexual too, as he was married, had one child, and more than likely had affairs with women too. I think he liked to experment sexually. That was common in his day and age. Edna St. Vicent Millay, the 2oth Century American poet, was oriented towards men, but had flings with women too, when she was young, in her college days. No one has ever called her lesbian. The correct term is bisexual, at least to me. I think Felix was pretty serious about being gay though. As for being closeted, well I think many in Russian society knew of his inclinations.

He was techincally a murderer, because he killed someone. The murder of Raspution needed to be accomplished, no doubt, if not in the way it was done. I think whether he would have gotten away with it depends on what society you are talking about, and in what sense. He might of, but is useless to speculate whether he would have gotten away with it in modern times.

I think people back then did know what streight and gay was, if not in our modern terms. I doubt they knew what bisexual was. I Judge this is the correct term to define Felix. I don't think we should judge people in history unless they were really bad, like Rasputin, or Hitler, etc. I think Felix was a huge character, someone who can interest us today, and be a relevant topic of debate. Whether good, or bad I don't know. The child of money, and blue blood, blessed with a fascinating personality and great looks, I don't think it is our place to judge him.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Valmont on October 27, 2005, 11:59:42 AM
Quote

 I don't think we should judge people in history unless they were really bad, like Rasputin, or Hitler, etc.  


Hitler... I AGREE.... But What did Rasputin did specifically to be considered BAD??..

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 28, 2005, 04:54:07 AM
Hey, i didn't know Felix liked Marie Antoinette!! Did he have any thing that belonged to her?? With his money i would be suprised if he didn't.

Any fellow fan of Marie Antoinette immediately goes up in my estimations  ;D

For the record, back in Felixs days it was called having "Turkish tastes" if you liked men.  ;D
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 28, 2005, 09:00:29 AM
Quote

Hitler... I AGREE.... But What did Rasputin did specifically to be considered BAD??..



If you really think about it - he didn't. To compare him to Hitler is unreasonable. Hitler was a racist megalomaniacal mass murderer (among other  things). Rasputin was just an alcoholic Russian peasant who happened to have strong powers of suggestion and considerable charisma, and who probably meant well most of the time... He was just at the right place at the wrong time and if it weren't for Alexei's hemophilia and Rasputin's ability to somehow resolve (or seem to resolve) his medical issues, the world would have never even heard the name Rasputin... I think that Felix and perhaps others had made him out to be a lot more "evil" than he really was, to justify the fact that they murdered him.  
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 28, 2005, 09:02:27 AM
To get back to the original topic: Felix was not in any way "closeted", he was pretty open about his homosexuality/bisexuality, and talked about it in his memoirs among other places.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: imperial angel on October 28, 2005, 10:17:19 AM
Right, Rasputin was not half as bad as Hitler, I don't think either of them are role models, though. I should have said ''Hitler and.... some other dictator''. That would have been much better. I was in a hurry.  ;)
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: lancashireladandre on October 28, 2005, 11:22:57 AM
Quote
Hey, i didn't know Felix liked Marie Antoinette!! Did he have any thing that belonged to her?? With his money i would be suprised if he didn't.

Any fellow fan of Marie Antoinette immediately goes up in my estimations  ;D

For the record, back in Felixs days it was called having "Turkish tastes" if you liked men.  ;D

The Youssoupoff collection boasted a number of objects that had belonged to the ill fated french Queen.Apart from furniture & ceramic's the most famous item was the huge pearshaped diamond earrings that Princess Tatania Y nee Engelhardt bought from Madame Royale. These were taken abroad in 1919,sold in the 1920's and are now in the Smithsonian in Washington DC, the gift of Eleanor Close Barzin, daughter of Marjorie Merrieweather Post who also owned the Faberge "Youssoupoff box".
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 28, 2005, 12:06:44 PM
Thank you  :)
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 28, 2005, 01:48:33 PM
Didn't Irina, Felix's wife, wear Marie Antoinette's lace veil at her own wedding to Felix?
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 28, 2005, 01:52:52 PM
This is somewhat off topic, but it seems that Alexandra was a big fan of Marie Antoinette too, in fact she often identified with her. This tapestry of MA and her children used to hang on the wall of one of the halls at the Alexander Palace, and still is there...   http://www.gonewark.com/atPlay/Images/stories/AtPlay_InStory1MarieAntoine.jpg

Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: imperial angel on November 18, 2005, 11:53:20 AM
Felix wasn't closeted seems to be the final word on this thread. And that he was either bi-sexual ( I judge this  to be the correct term), or he was gay is the conclusion in that matter.Am I right? ;)
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: imperial angel on November 21, 2005, 10:47:52 AM
I myself conclude he wasn't closeted, I think everybody has always wondered why that word is in this thread. I doubt it was accurate.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Valmont on November 24, 2005, 02:28:37 PM
         I think someone pointed out earlier (I do not recall if it was in this thread) but in those times, such terms as "closeted" or "bi-sexual" did not exist.  General public knew of such behaviors and I recall they  called them  or name them "Grammar mistakes" or something similar. (I am working from memory).

        As for Felix being into our understanding of what a "Closeted gay man"  would be, It think he was not. He braged about his trasvesti adventures  even in his memories. it is known he did not hasitated to wear his designs so he would show the models at "Irfe" how the dresses should be worn. It is known he wore make up sometimes so thick that there's an anecdote about his make up cracking  down and falling into his supper. I think he preffered women as sexual companions if there was not men available. (I do not know if the term homosexual was used in those times, I think it was not.) and he did not care to hide it. I could assume that hidding it was the least he care about. If we were to apply today's terms on Felix's behavior I would have to agree with Greg King when he wrote "The only Closet Fellix ever was, was his Mother's... and that was to steal her clothes".....

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on November 26, 2005, 11:50:09 AM
I know this is sort of an old topic, but I believe the term "homosexual" was used back in the 1910s. I believe this because I'm reading a book called the Diary of Ellen Rimbauer, and it takes place in the 1910s. I know this book is fiction, but it's one of those books where the author tries to fool the reader into thinking it's a true diary. In this book, someone the character knew is gay, and the term "homosexual" was used. If the author wished to fool the reader into thinking it's a real diary, I doubt she would have used a term that that wasn't used back then.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: imperial angel on November 29, 2005, 10:39:13 AM
It would be interesting to know if that term was used, it could have been, but probably not widely nor in polite society.. I doubt Felix would ever have called himself this, but then his inclinations were at least a bit in this direction. They used euphenisms back then, and this seems too straight a term, to me, to have been used widely. We can really debate whether Anastasia was gay, but we have to say that Felix was inclined towards men, with some women inbetween.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Richard_Cullen on December 01, 2005, 06:48:58 AM
Hi

The term 'homosexual' in legal parlance has certainly been around since the early 19th century and could be applied in Tsarist Russia.  More unpleasantly the terms 'sodomy' and catamite were used to describe males involved in same gender sex.

I think from looking at lots of books you will find references to depraved and carnal habits when it can only mean gay sex.  The reason it was spoken so much was that so many of the aristocracy were enagaged in gay sex.

If you look at the biography of Reginald Second Viscount Esher you can see how rife it was in Voctorian England.

Despite the fact that gay sex was illegal even between consenting men many of those who purported to be 'straight' and were married were in fact gay.

Richard
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: imperial angel on December 01, 2005, 09:53:03 AM
thanks for letting us know they used that term back then. ;)
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 02, 2011, 10:33:32 PM
I think it was pretty much common knowledge, but he never came right out and said it. I heard that at the time he wrote Lost Splendor, admitting to being gay was punishable in France (where he lived) by being sent to labor camps busting rocks in the Pyrannes mountains!
Well, in that case you heard wrong. Homosexual relations between consenting adults in private have been legal in France since 1791.

BTW heterosexual transvestites are autogynephiliacs, i.e. men who get off on imagining themselves as women. They are generally rather respectable members of society. The other group of transvestites, the homosexual ones like Felix, often display criminal behaviour, like Felix's, from a young age, according to Blanchard's transsexualism etiology. That they usually also have lower than average IQ and come from the lower social classes does not fit with Felix, though.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Leslie.R on June 22, 2012, 10:10:05 PM
I hate to be rude. But I feel that in Irina case she married him and it was her duty to stay with her husband. She simply could not and would not divorce him, this meant she must stay with him and learn to deal with his behavior. I personal do not feel that he was gay but if he was it is not my place to judge him on it. He lived in a time were that was looked down upon so if he was homosexual then he delt with it. I personal do not feel he was, due to the fact that once the problems of his past were dead and gone why would he stay with his wife? If you would gay and your family and surroundings where changed in that way wouldn't you then divorce her and move on with life? I know that I would. I come from an old russian family and I am homosexual and I know my family does not approve of it but as long as I am respectful they just simply dismiss it. I know that if I were to marry a woman then my family was killed off and the society that I live in was no longer running my life I would look to my lover for comfort and leave my wife so that I might be with my lover full time. So in my mind I do not feel he was gay. I just keep thinking why stay with Irina all that time if he was?





If I have offended anyone with this post, I ask your forgiveness please.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Russian Art Lover on June 25, 2012, 04:51:02 PM
Hi

The term 'homosexual' in legal parlance has certainly been around since the early 19th century and could be applied in Tsarist Russia.  More unpleasantly the terms 'sodomy' and catamite were used to describe males involved in same gender sex.
Richard


I know that the term "bugger" was definitely used at that time, because when GD Sergei Alexandrovich was governor of Moscow, they used to have a play on words based on the Russian word for a small hill (bugr).

They said that Rome stood on seven hills ("bugrs"), but Moscow stood on only one "bugger" (i.e. Sergei!).



Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: feodorovna on June 26, 2012, 02:19:56 AM
I hate to be rude. But I feel that in Irina case she married him and it was her duty to stay with her husband. She simply could not and would not divorce him, this meant she must stay with him and learn to deal with his behavior. I personal do not feel that he was gay but if he was it is not my place to judge him on it. He lived in a time were that was looked down upon so if he was homosexual then he delt with it. I personal do not feel he was, due to the fact that once the problems of his past were dead and gone why would he stay with his wife? If you would gay and your family and surroundings where changed in that way wouldn't you then divorce her and move on with life? I know that I would. I come from an old russian family and I am homosexual and I know my family does not approve of it but as long as I am respectful they just simply dismiss it. I know that if I were to marry a woman then my family was killed off and the society that I live in was no longer running my life I would look to my lover for comfort and leave my wife so that I might be with my lover full time. So in my mind I do not feel he was gay. I just keep thinking why stay with Irina all that time if he was?


LeslieR, you sound as if you come from a position where you care, something I don't feel able to say of Felix. I believe he stayed married to Irina because it suited them both for him to do so. They made an exquisitely beautifuland probably superficial, couple and I have no doubt that each revelled in being admired by both sexes. I don't imagine it to have been a conventional marriage. Importantly, there was enough money to support and sustain whatever they chose to do. I sense yearning behind the desire to  "look to my lover for comfort and leave my wife so that I might be with my lover full time". I can't credit Felix with having that depth of emotion, I think, for him, it was more about "I want it and I will have it," and I imagine that when things on an emotional level, became to hot for him to handle, it was to Irina that he turned. I believe she placed few, if any, emotional demands on him and he was happy with things as they were. Marriages are based on so much more than sex-they had a child, it happened once-and I think they were each others best friend.





If I have offended anyone with this post, I ask your forgiveness please.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: feodorovna on June 26, 2012, 02:20:11 AM
I hate to be rude. But I feel that in Irina case she married him and it was her duty to stay with her husband. She simply could not and would not divorce him, this meant she must stay with him and learn to deal with his behavior. I personal do not feel that he was gay but if he was it is not my place to judge him on it. He lived in a time were that was looked down upon so if he was homosexual then he delt with it. I personal do not feel he was, due to the fact that once the problems of his past were dead and gone why would he stay with his wife? If you would gay and your family and surroundings where changed in that way wouldn't you then divorce her and move on with life? I know that I would. I come from an old russian family and I am homosexual and I know my family does not approve of it but as long as I am respectful they just simply dismiss it. I know that if I were to marry a woman then my family was killed off and the society that I live in was no longer running my life I would look to my lover for comfort and leave my wife so that I might be with my lover full time. So in my mind I do not feel he was gay. I just keep thinking why stay with Irina all that time if he was?





If I have offended anyone with this post, I ask your forgiveness please.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 25, 2012, 04:47:12 PM
To me, on my historical and point of view, of Prince Felix.

He was raised an aristocrat, known to be vain, snobby and imperious and also charming to though he likes. And use to get everything he wants, as a typical spoiled rich boy as his family was FABULAOUSLY Wealthy, richer then the ruling house.

In the 1900s to the end of the Russian Empire, for Russian aristocrats boys like him, being flamboyant and cross dressing were all the rage! And as being rich, thought to be immortal, like any rich or famous person now.

As been gay, I think he was more “Bi-sexual” since most gay men would then and even now would not consider marring and less mating with a woman; as a outgoing as he was I really doubt he’ll hid such as his gender and sexuality.

As for his wife Princess Irina, they were good friends and greatly understand each other which made their marriage last and happy enough. They both had love affairs (him with both men and women) after their daughter was born.  He did say once, that Irina married him for his money, and he married her out of pride, think of it, he married the Emperor’s ONLY niece (by blood). Their marriage may not be passionate love but it was successful.

As for murdering Rasputin, I did remember reading once- in his memoirs, that he thought (and many even agree with him) that Rasputin and the Empress was destroying Russia’s government and he in his mind it was his duty to get rid of Rasputin for good.
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Kalafrana on July 26, 2012, 06:00:21 AM
I can't help thinking that Yussupov thoroughly enjoyed shocking people! Certainly he was very theatrically and his appearing on the stage as a woman was part of that.

Ann
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Stardust on July 26, 2012, 07:55:26 AM

As for his wife Princess Irina, they were good friends and greatly understand each other which made their marriage last and happy enough. They both had love affairs


 
 I didn't know that Irina had a love affair.  Does anyone have any details about that?
Title: Re: Was Prince Felix a closeted gay man?
Post by: Stardust on August 04, 2012, 03:23:08 PM
Hey guys I was just reading Felix bio and does anyone know if there's any truth about King Edward vii taking a interest in Felix ( even though he didn't know it was actually him in a drag) 
at the theater?