Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: rskkiya on October 08, 2004, 04:20:07 PM

Title: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on October 08, 2004, 04:20:07 PM
No.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Janet_W. on October 08, 2004, 04:56:50 PM
Jeremygaleaz, we know that the bullets were deflected by certain garments worn by the Grand Duchesses; these garments had small precious jewels sewn into them. But Alexei did not wear any such garment.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Greg_King on October 08, 2004, 05:39:48 PM
We ran across a claim in part of Isai Rodzinsky's unpublished testimony that Alexei did have some kind of jewelry on underbeath-if so, this explains Yurovsky's statement that Nikulin emptied his cartridge clip into Alexei, who simply sat there, and was not dead after being shot at close range, having to be finished off with head shots.

Greg King
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: JonC on October 08, 2004, 05:48:08 PM
Greg.

I know this is not about Alexei but speaking of head shots..do you know if the others were also shot in the head? JonC.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Janet_W. on October 08, 2004, 06:25:16 PM
My gosh. I stand (actually, sit) corrected.

And now I have to confess that although I've read most of FOTR, I haven't yet finished reading the section re: the final minutes of the massacre. I started, and then . . . the visual images, the horrific brutality to those that despite the chasm of time I have come to know almost as friends . .  . I couldn't continue. I will do so later, when I'm feeling stronger and have the whole day ahead of me to contemplate man's inhumanity to man, then can follow that contemplation with some hard exercise.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Greg_King on October 09, 2004, 01:23:39 AM
Quote
Greg.

I know this is not about Alexei but speaking of head shots..do you know if the others were also shot in the head? JonC.


No shots were fired after the execution ended (i.e., while the corpses remained in the basement, or were being loaded onto the truck in the courtyard).  So we know therefore the following people died in that room, as they were shot in the head:

Alexandra Feodorovna
Eugene Botkin
Olga Nikolaievna
Tatiana Nikolaievna
Alexei Trupp

Nicholas II was shot multiple times in the chest and by all accounts died in that room

Ivan Kharitonov is mentioned in all accounts as having died in the first volley, but because his remains are so fragmented and incomplete it is impossible to say where he may actually have been hit by the bullets.

As Alexei's remains are missing, all we are left with is the evidence of the executioners-that he was repeatedly shot, but did not die, and was "finished off" by Yurovsky and by Ermakov with bullets and a bayonet.

Demidova, Anastasia, and Marie had no head shots.  All accounts agree that Demidova was pursued and stabbed with bayonets-probably enough to kill her.

According to Yurovsky's unpublished 1922 account, Anastasia and Marie were "finished off" with head shots in the room, yet we also know that both sat up alive some 15-20 minutes later, and that Marie, at least, had no indication of having been shot in the head-therefore the claim that they were "finished off" in this manner is not supported by the facts.  Marie certainly died that night.  As with Alexei, it is impossible to determine the nature of Anastasia's wounds as (as Penny Wilson and myself wrote in "The Fate of the Romanovs") we believe her remains still missing.

Greg King
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 09, 2004, 01:50:46 AM
Greg: Thank you for the factual summation.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: aislinn_24 on October 18, 2004, 12:54:48 AM
i was just reading the previous forums because eairlier i watched  a movie on pbs about the royal family, since i have always been fascinated with topic and i was wondering if Nicholas II was abdicated also for his son why were they killed in the first place? couldnt they just have gone living normal lives?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on October 18, 2004, 07:42:22 PM
aislinn,

There is a thread which talks about:

Why They Killed Them.

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=revolution;action=display;num=1093821836

Hope this helps answer some of your questions

AGRBear :)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: aislinn_24 on October 18, 2004, 08:16:15 PM
THANKS
ANOTHER QUESTION, I WAS ALSO WONDERING IF ALEXI WAS SITTING IN THAT CHAIR THAT OTHER  FORUM MEMBERS MENTIONED, STILL ALIVE, AND HE COULDNT WALK HOW WAS IT POSSIBLE FOR HIM TO GET OUT? SINCE THE CHAIR WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROOM.
 DO YOU THINK HE DIED IN THE ROOM OR WHAT?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Alexandra_Romanova on October 26, 2004, 04:03:19 PM
Here is a link to Yurovsky's Account of the Murders:

http://victorian.fortunecity.com/rembrandt/571/yurovsky.html

And, I think that Alexei may have died in the room, but they took his body a buried it somewhere else. That way, the bodies could not be identified right away as the Royal families remains. That theory is from a friend.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 09, 2005, 01:02:30 AM
My friend and I have discussed Alexei's survival and IF he actually survived! i thought that there was no chance of that because someone with Hemophilia couldn't of survived getting shot and then being burned!

And then my friend found out that a way to heal a cut or a wound of a bleeder is to burn it! So if Alexei was shot and then thrown into a fire the bleeding could of stopped!

I've read a survival store about Alexei where the man who claimed to be Alexei  had rolled away from the fire where he was thrown with the rest of his family!

So what do all of you think, could have Alexei survived getting burned or not?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on February 09, 2005, 06:45:54 AM
It would be nice to hope, but by the time they got to the forest he would have already been dead if he wasn't already. It took them  a long time and the truck broke down or got stuck in the mud several times. Also, if he was burning, he couldn't just get up and go, oh okay, I'm cured now, and walk away. Besides that he couldn't walk anyway because of his fall down the stairs in the sled.

If anyone else disagrees with me please post your opposing ideas.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Denise on February 09, 2005, 07:04:56 AM
Yes, Annie, you are correct!  I saw this question on the thread called "Alexei" when another of our younger posters posed the same question.  There are responses to this there that go into greater detail....

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on February 09, 2005, 01:49:08 PM

Welcome to our forum.

Since young Alexei did have hemophilia and if he was hurt with bullets and bayonets,  he would not have survived had he rolled through a fire to stop the bleeding.  

Hemophilia hurts a person because they can't stop bleeding so these kinds of  wounds would have gone too deep and  the fire couldn't have reached.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 09, 2005, 02:44:11 PM
You have a good point AGRBear!

Ya I also thought that it would have been impossible for him to have survived!

 I know this is nonsense but maybe some miracle could of hap pend and Alexei may have survived, because I've hesrd of some pretty amazing things happened to people close with God and I have family that has witnessed these miracles, so I'm not saying that this is true but maybe he might of survived with God leading his way!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Candice on February 09, 2005, 03:27:00 PM
'Nicholas II' The Last of the Tsars, written by Marc Ferro a historian. Marc Ferro writes several pages on a possible theory that Alexandra and her four daughters survived and the uncertainty of Nicholas and Alexis survival. I thought I'd share that with you.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 09, 2005, 05:51:45 PM
Well i can't believe that Alexandra and OTMA survived, their bone were found, and it is known by many that they ARE dead!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on February 09, 2005, 06:21:03 PM
Not all of OTMA were found, Anastasia is also missing along with Alexei.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 09, 2005, 07:08:05 PM
Ya true Annie!

But what i've just found out is that Yurovsky tried burning Alexei and Anastasia not the lady in waiting!And he burried them seperatly! So that could be the anwser to the missing Grand Duchess!

Please correct me if i'm wrong!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 09, 2005, 07:09:11 PM

I don't think Alexis could have survived..period. As much as it would be nice to think, seeing what a frail boy he was, I don't think he could have gotten far. Like Annie said, with the accident down the stairs, he couldn't walk at all... which is a major handicap for someone wanting to make a swift escape
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Lanie on February 09, 2005, 07:09:28 PM
It's either Tatiana, Maria or Anastasia who's missing.  *shrug*

The whole burning things that's bleeding -- well, that was done ages and ages ago for medical reasons after a limb was amputated, burning to kill infection and cauterize the blood vessels.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on February 09, 2005, 07:12:25 PM
Yes that's true, there is a question over which GD is missing, but one is for sure. And "missing" doesn't necessarily mean "survived"  :'( It's a body that's missing, and the girl didn't escape.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 09, 2005, 07:25:28 PM
Were all the people who claimed to see Anastasia after the murder lying? And the question is why would they say that they saw her? i just don't get it!  ???
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Denise on February 09, 2005, 07:30:43 PM
Check out the thread on Testimony of Sightings after July 18, 1918.  We talk about that.  

They may not have been "lying" but were simply mistaken.   It is also possible that some of the rural Russians did not know well enough what the Romanovs looked like.  Others may have been telling investigators what they wanted to hear.  Others may have been Bolshevik plants, trying to disguise the fact that the Imperial Family had been killed.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on February 09, 2005, 07:33:46 PM
Quote
It is also possible that some of the rural Russians did not know well enough what the Romanovs looked like.  Others may have been telling investigators what they wanted to hear.  Others may have been Bolshevik plants, trying to disguise the fact that the Imperial Family had been killed.


All very good points.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: sokolova on April 09, 2005, 12:40:56 PM
 Hi, I'm a new poster.
I'm interested in the story about the Grand Duchesses and the Tsarina being sent to Perm  that was (allegedly) told by AA in later life.

It's interesting because - according to the book 'The File on the Tsar' - there were many contemporary stories  from Perm itself that people had seen the Grand Duchesses imprisoned there.
 
Is this just a coincidence, or did AA know about these stories - OR is it possibly corroboration that she might have been telling the truth? :o
Sokolova
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: stepan on April 09, 2005, 03:38:25 PM
As far as I know AA mentioned the Perm story only after the The File on the Tsar had been published in 1976.
So perhaps she said what people wanted to hear.It seems she changed her story several times.

When the authors of the book visited her in Charlottesville she suddenly told them that "there was no massacre in Ekaterinburg but I can´t tell you the rest". Just to add to the mystery perhaps!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Elisabeth on April 09, 2005, 04:16:29 PM
Summers and Mangold, the authors of The File on the Tsar, interviewed Anna Anderson for the book. This is when she made the infamous "there was no massacre" in Ekaterinburg remark. For obvious reasons. She would have had to have been either totally clueless or senile not to have realized that these reporters were rewriting the story of the Ekaterinburg murders. I'm fairly sure they even shared a few details of their big scoop with her, since their entire argument supported her claim, and her claim in turn supported theirs. It was probably another example of the "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" principle in action, however unconsciously. I don't think it was done with any deliberate intention to deceive - at least on the part of Summers and Mangold.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on April 10, 2005, 11:56:54 AM
This book was hard to believe when I was a high school freshman when it came out, and now it's outright ridiculous in many ways, knowing what we know now since the fall of Communism.

While I did at one time believe in AA, I never believed the Polish family claimants (my history teacher did though!) and I never believed the Perm stories. Now since I've come to this forum, I found out the reason for the rumors: the Germans, with whom the Russians had just bargained an end to the war, had demanded 'the princesses of German blood' (Alix and OTMA) be delivered safely into their hands. Since they had already been executed, the Bolsheviks had to come up with a story real fast to cover themselves in order not to cause in international incident with the Germans, so they planted all these stories that the girls had escaped and let them spread around. Sadly, these stories are used to this day by those looking for escape theories. So there was word going around that they were alive, seen here or there, but they were all FALSE.

This is not the only time the Bolsheviks did this. When Ella, Prince Paley and the Konstantinovich boys were killed 2 days after the Imperial family, they did not admit it, they went back to the town and rang a bell and spread word that the prisoners had been 'taken away in the night by unknown persons' There is documented evidence of this in the memoirs of the lead assassin, and you can read his testimony in "Nicholas and Alexandra: A Lifelong Passion." So since they did it here, it is very likely they also were capable of making up false stories concerning the other killings. Not only has this caused a lot of wild stories to circulate over the years, it caused at the time a great deal of false hope and grief among the families, especially the mother of the Konstantinovich boys.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Laura Mabee on April 10, 2005, 03:41:20 PM
Wow Annie,
Thanks for posting that!  ;)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 12, 2005, 11:56:34 AM
Despite what some posters continue to say about Summers and Mangold, they did their homework.  They found evidence which had been eliminated from Sokolov's Report.  Some of the reports missing were those of the earlier investigators who had found eye witnesses who claimed they had seen Alexandra and her three daughters in Perm.

One particular investigator wrote in his report that he had thought the entire execution had been staged by the CHEKA.

Summers and Mangold's book THE FILE ON THE TSAR  is outdated since it was written in the 60s but this doesn't mean there still isn't good information in the book.

Time and time again I've asked the posters who place posts that trash Summers and Mangold to give me evidence that these two men had fabricated any of their evidence.  They can't.  In fact, there is a poster who use to work for them who tells us several times on other threads that Summers and Mangold were very good in this task of discovery.

I don't have time this morning to post some of the evidence which Summers and Mangold found but I will.

AGRBear

PS Testimony of Sightings After 16 July 1918 is a good place to start, I think:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1091994509
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on April 13, 2005, 10:06:54 AM
Quote
Time and time again I've asked the posters who place posts that trash Summers and Mangold to give me evidence that these two men had fabricated any of their evidence.  They can't.


No one ever asked me that specifically, but I never said they 'fabricated' any of it. I do not think, and never thought that they outright lied. I do think they were incorrect in their theories, and that they got a hold of some incorrect information. I also think there are things they assumed that were not right.


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Denise on April 13, 2005, 04:19:55 PM
Quote

No one ever asked me that specifically, but I never said they 'fabricated' any of it. I do not think, and never thought that they outright lied. I do think they were incorrect in their theories, and that they got a hold of some incorrect information. I also think there are things they assumed that were not right.




This is quite true Annie.   I have NEVER heard you say that the book was a fabrication, just that it was outdated.  Saying the information is incorrect (as it is, based on CURRENT research) does not equal the book being a lie.  

I just received this book from Laura Mabee, and have paged through it.  Despite the obvious errors because of recent findings, it is an interesting viewpoint of the alternate theories.  Given, of course, that you accept that the book's theory that the IF escaped has been denounced by the finding of the bodies.

A roundabout way to say I support Annie on this one!  ;)

Denise
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 13, 2005, 06:41:58 PM
Annie. can you give me an example of the incorrect information to which you refer?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on April 14, 2005, 08:30:03 AM
Thanks Denise :)

Well, Bear, the family was killed in Ekaterinburg and the bodies (all but 2) were found and identified. So if there is any info contrary to that, it's incorrect. Also I was referring to their assumptions made into stories, such as the hair story. Hair was found, and they assumed OTMA had cut off their hair to disguise themselves as the fled and and they made a story about it, describing how they laughed as they cut each other's hair, etc, (they even mentioned how Alix refused to cut hers!) when in reality, they didn't even have long hair anymore since their heads had been shaved the year before! The hair found was something to do with that and not an escape, yet they used that as a story and it wasn't true. Again, I don't say they lied, just that they had some theories and assumptions that are not true. I am really tired of talking any more about this 28 year old book. It's been proven wrong and it's not important anymore.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 14, 2005, 10:34:31 AM
Annie, we've gone through the "hair" discussion on another thread.  And, what Summer and Mangold told us was about  all of the of "hair" discovered.  There  wasn't just talk about the hairpieces,   there was also evidence that hair was cut ....   I think Nicholas II either trim his mustach and beard that day or a few days earlier, I forget at the moment.

You should go back and reread  that part of the book because you lumped togather a number of things.

And, if the IF did escape*, and that is what the Perm evidence they discovered seems to indicate when they were talking about the Perm evidence, so the speculation about the cutting of hair was important since it would change the look of those who escaped.


I'll look for what I already posted on this subject and bring it back here.  If it's in one of the locked down threads,  it might take me some time to find it or I might have to rewrite a new post about the "hair".

AGRBear

*Correction in my Post: reply #16, which is below.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 14, 2005, 11:10:08 AM
THE FILE ON THE TSAR by Summers and Mangold  pps. 67-68:

"Nametkin began work, as one might expect of a professional, by making minute inspection of the Impatiev House.  he was accompied by Captain Malinovsky of the Officers' Commission, and again by Chemodurov and Dr. Derevenko.  Togather they made a painstaking inventory of all the seemed to be left of the Romanovs...."

Their inventory of the hair/hairs found were:
(1) short pieces of hair cuttings in the bathroom
(2) in the vestibule outside the imperial quarters "more strands of hair"
(3) in a box "cut hair of four different colors to which was added by Summers and Mangold "Chemodurov later identitifed the hair as coming from the four grand duchesses"

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on April 14, 2005, 12:59:27 PM
Quote
Annie, we've gone through the "hair" discussion on another thread.  And, what Summer and Mangold told us was about  all of the of "hair" discovered.  There  wasn't just talk about the hairpieces,   there was also evidence that hair was cut ....   I think Nicholas II either trim his mustach and beard that day or a few days earlier, I forget at the moment.

You should go back and reread  that part of the book because you lumped togather a number of things.

And, if the IF did escape, and that is what the Perm evidence they discovered seems to indicate when they were talking about the Perm evidence, so the speculation about the cutting of hair was important since it would change the look of those who escaped.

I'll look for what I already posted on this subject and bring it back here.  If it's in one of the locked down threads,  it might take me some time to find it or I might have to rewrite a new post about the "hair".

AGRBear


1. The IF did NOT escape or go to Perm.

2. I never said anything about hairpieces, just hair saved after their heads were shaved. If there were short cuttings of hair and moustaches in the bathroom, I seriously doubt this was done to alter anyone's appearance, or that it would have altered it that much. They wore hats anyway. But none of this matters, since they were shot in Ekaterinburg and were never in Perm.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Denise on April 14, 2005, 01:29:03 PM
Quote

1. The IF did NOT escape or go to Perm.

2. I never said anything about hairpieces, just hair saved after their heads were shaved. If there were short cuttings of hair and moustaches in the bathroom, I seriously doubt this was done to alter anyone's appearance, or that it would have altered it that much. They wore hats anyway. But none of this matters, since they were shot in Ekaterinburg and were never in Perm.


I have to agree with Annie here, Bear.  Using ANYTHING found in Ekaterinburg as evidence that the IF escaped to Perm is an obvious fallacy considering current events.  Yes, there may have been hair trim,med before the night July 16/17, but they still didn't go to Perm. The slight matter of a grave in the forest with 11 bodies dispells that myth.  

Perhaps had the Perm stories told only of one daughter and Alexei being sighted they would hold more weight today.

JMHO....

Denise
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 14, 2005, 01:57:39 PM
No, the bodies in the mass grave doesn't change the fact that that members of the family may have been in Perm after 16/17 July 1918.

Alexandra and the girls could have been murdered later.  Maybe after the Whites left Ekaterinburg.

By the layers of the bodies we know who was placed in the grave first and the layers of bones shows us that Alexandra and the girls were not placed in the grave first.

We all know that nine of the eleven ended up in the grave in Pig's Meadow.  We know that they were buried approximately in 1918-1920 because of the age of the surface of the ground in some parts.

We know the grave has been opened more than once before 1979.  Just as we know some of the bones and skulls were removed then returned in a box after the opening in 1979.

As for the "hair",  this was evidence and Summers and Mangold speculated.  And, they thought it may have had some kind of connection to the "sightings" in Perm.  

Summers and Mangold gives evidence through eye witnesses' account that Alexandra and the girls were prisioners of the CHEKA in Perm and not free and roaming the streets.

And, they mentioned the fact that some of the witnesses didn't see four daughters but three.  So, there was mentioned that Anastasia may have tried to or did escape.

Remember, there was still a lot of people still believing that AA was GD Anastasia.  So, they were probably looking for evidence that might give Kurth and Lovell something new to work.  If I remember, however, they do say in their book that they didn't think AA was GD Anastasia.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 15, 2005, 10:53:42 AM
*Correction NOTE on my Post "Reply #11:

I just reread my post above and this is in error.  

"And, if the IF did escape, and that is what the Perm evidence they discovered seems to indicate when they were talking about the Perm evidence, so the speculation about the cutting of hair was important since it would change the look of those who escaped."

The Perm evidence doesn't show an escape from the Ipatiev House, it shows the CHEKA and Ural Soviets may have taken the Alexandra and the four girls to Perm.

They do, however, talk about witnesses saying that the Reds were looking for "Anastasia", who may have attempted escape twice from the CHEKA, in the woods near Perm .

The authors writings around the "hair" stuff was showing, I assume, that someone or all, might have changed their appearance earlier that day of the 16th of July.

Sorry for the mix up.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on April 15, 2005, 11:37:41 AM
Quote
No, the bodies in the mass grave doesn't change the fact that that members of the family may have been in Perm after 16/17 July 1918.

Alexandra and the girls could have been murdered later.  Maybe after the Whites left Ekaterinburg.



And what would the point be?  By every even halfway credible account they all  were shot at once, in the basement. Now knowing the 'princesses of German blood' story makes it far even LESS likely that Alix and the girls would have been shot later! Once they found out that, they wouldn't have shot them, but they already had so they were covering for it!

AND- IF and what a BIG IF they were killed later, what are the chances that they would bother to travel all the way back to the same spot, through the mud where the truck got stuck, to territory the Whites were capturing, just to deposit them in the SAME grave?? Wouldn't it have made more sense to find yet another obscure hiding place? That would be much better, and throw off the trail of the Whites even more! So see, none of the Perm story even makes any sense!

Quote
Summers and Mangold gives evidence through eye witnesses' account that Alexandra and the girls were prisioners of the CHEKA in Perm and not free and roaming the streets.


This 'evidence' is only because of the false stories circulated by the Bolsheviks to cover the fact that they were indeed already dead. It all came from that.

Also, as someone mentioned awhile back, how many average people would have recognized the IF if they saw them on the street, especially in shabby clothes? Perhaps the Tsar, his face was well known, but remember, with the war, and the fact that most people far from St. P and Moscow rarely even saw a picture of the family, the last one being the 1913 tercentenary portaits, doesn't that make it more than a stretch? They didn't have the internet and haven't spent much time staring at and evaluating pics like we have. Most of the people out there probably hadn't seen many, if any, pics of the girls in the newspaper and I doubt there were any books on them at this time. So no, I don't believe they could have been accurately recognized by your average Ural area Russian, this in addition to the likelihood everything else was just rumor and sensationalism.



Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Denise on April 15, 2005, 12:37:59 PM
Quote

And what would the point be?  By every even halfway credible account they all  were shot at once, in the basement. Now knowing the 'princesses of German blood' story makes it far even LESS likely that Alix and the girls would have been shot later! Once they found out that, they wouldn't have shot them, but they already had so they were covering for it!

AND- IF and what a BIG IF they were killed later, what are the chances that they would bother to travel all the way back to the same spot, through the mud where the truck got stuck, to territory the Whites were capturing, just to deposit them in the SAME grave?? Wouldn't it have made more sense to find yet another obscure hiding place? That would be much better, and throw off the trail of the Whites even more! So see, none of the Perm story even makes any sense!


This 'evidence' is only because of the false stories circulated by the Bolsheviks to cover the fact that they were indeed already dead. It all came from that.

Also, as someone mentioned awhile back, how many average people would have recognized the IF if they saw them on the street, especially in shabby clothes? Perhaps the Tsar, his face was well known, but remember, with the war, and the fact that most people far from St. P and Moscow rarely even saw a picture of the family, the last one being the 1913 tercentenary portaits, doesn't that make it more than a stretch? They didn't have the internet and haven't spent much time staring at and evaluating pics like we have. Most of the people out there probably hadn't seen many, if any, pics of the girls in the newspaper and I doubt there were any books on them at this time. So no, I don't believe they could have been accurately recognized by your average Ural area Russian, this in addition to the likelihood everything else was just rumor and sensationalism.





Well said, Annie.  You covered all the points I was going to bring up as I read Bear's response.  

I think the major point Annie makes that completely debunks the Perm stories is that the women's bodies would have had to be brought back to enemy territory to be buried with the remainder of the imperial party.  Seems completely unlikely if not impossible.  

And why the telegrams to Moscow that the rest met the same fate as the head if they were alive and romping around in Perm?  If they had been in Perm the last thing you would expect is for the Cheka to allow others to see them.  Think how those spectators around the Ipatiev house were threatened for loitering?

Denise
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 15, 2005, 01:07:27 PM
Quote

And what would the point be?  By every even halfway credible account they all  were shot at once, in the basement. Now knowing the 'princesses of German blood' story makes it far even LESS likely that Alix and the girls would have been shot later! Once they found out that, they wouldn't have shot them, but they already had so they were covering for it!

AND- IF and what a BIG IF they were killed later, what are the chances that they would bother to travel all the way back to the same spot, through the mud where the truck got stuck, to territory the Whites were capturing, just to deposit them in the SAME grave?? Wouldn't it have made more sense to find yet another obscure hiding place? That would be much better, and throw off the trail of the Whites even more! So see, none of the Perm story even makes any sense!


This 'evidence' is only because of the false stories circulated by the Bolsheviks to cover the fact that they were indeed already dead. It all came from that.

Also, as someone mentioned awhile back, how many average people would have recognized the IF if they saw them on the street, especially in shabby clothes? Perhaps the Tsar, his face was well known, but remember, with the war, and the fact that most people far from St. P and Moscow rarely even saw a picture of the family, the last one being the 1913 tercentenary portaits, doesn't that make it more than a stretch? They didn't have the internet and haven't spent much time staring at and evaluating pics like we have. Most of the people out there probably hadn't seen many, if any, pics of the girls in the newspaper and I doubt there were any books on them at this time. So no, I don't believe they could have been accurately recognized by your average Ural area Russian, this in addition to the likelihood everything else was just rumor and sensationalism.


Annie:  >>Now knowing the 'princesses of German blood' story makes it far even LESS likely that Alix and the girls would have been shot later!<<
Bear Ans.:  I do not know to what you are referring.  Please explain.

Annie: >>..AND- IF and what a BIG IF they were killed later, what are the chances that they would bother to travel all the way back to the same spot..<<
Bear Ans:  The spot was created by Yurovsky so  it would stand to reason that once Alex. and the three girls were executed that they'd take the bodies back to where they had said they were buried to cover up their lies....  Some think the bodies were actually buried elsewhere and then up dug up and then reburied in Pig's Meadow because of the various bones missing which occurs in a reburiel....

Annie: >>Wouldn't it have made more sense to find yet another obscure hiding place?<<
Bear Ans.:  That is what they should have accomplished in July of 1918, but they didn't, they  reported the buriels were  in Pig's Meadow and this is where they needed to be found by Soviet officials if they came looking for themselves....


Annie:  >> ...none of the Perm story even makes any sense!<<
Bear Ans.:  This was war time and a lot of events don't make sense when looking at them in 2005.  But, I see no reason why the CHEKA wouldn't have taken Alexandra and the girls to Perm just as they had announced.... And, if they did, then executed them later, I doubt they would have made a public annoucement of having killed them after if the Whites during their investigation had already declared them having been executed on 16/17 July.

Annie: >>...how many average people would have recognized the IF if they saw them on the street, especially in shabby clothes<<
Bear Ans.:  I thought it was agreed by some of you that aristocracts were easily reconized because of their attitude toward the peasants and others who were beneath them in the social ladder, so, it didn't matter what they wore.  And, too, the moment they opened their mouth, their Russian would be reconized as being one that of an educated person.

Annie: >>most people far from St. P and Moscow rarely even saw a picture of the family, the last one being the 1913 tercentenary portaits, doesn't that make it more than a stretch?<<
Bear Ans.:  I'm not sure why people believe people who lived in small villages be it near Odessa, Kherson, Ekaterinburg or Tifilis didn't have newspapers, which had carried pictures of the Royal Family, or magazines, which had carried pictures of the Royal Family, or that the image of Nicholas II wasn't familar even though it it hung in school rooms and govt. buildings....  There were even postcards of the Royal Family sold in stands in Ekaterinburg .....  Remember the magazines AA saw in the asylum? And this was in Berlin not even in Russia.  A stack of them saved and read over and over.  Ekaterinburg was a busy city and connected to the west and the east because of it's position along the rail lines and it's ecomony.  Also, people were no different then they are, now. Our forum is a good example because it shows many of us have an interest in the IF.  It was no different then.  And, perhaps even more so then.  Wasn't it a dream of every little girl to grow up and marry a prince, and, I bet there were many hoping  Tsarvich Alexei would walk into their lives....  Just as the little girls and young women had in Nicholas II's time...

I remember my one grandmother who lived in one of those distant village talk about how they horded the magazines and how the girls would view the the royals and their clothes.  She often copied the fashions worn by he Royals found in magazines.  She was born in the 1880s.

I've got to go and do some work.  

I may have made some errors but I'm being  suddenly told to rush....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on April 15, 2005, 11:35:15 PM
I am not being sarcastic here so pleasedon't take it that way. Let's say they were executed somewhere else? What does that tell us? Does it matter? Please explain.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 15, 2005, 11:52:43 PM
Quote
small villages be it in Odessa....or Tifilis....


Bear, Odessa is not by any means a "small village", it is a large port city, one of the most cosmopolitan in Russia (or rather the Ukraine) - population 1.5 million. Tiflis is the capital of Georgia, hence not a "small village" either.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 16, 2005, 11:15:47 AM
Yep Odessa is a large sea port city, etc. etc..

I should have said small villages "near" Odessa, etc. etc. and have gone back to my post and incerted the word "near".  Thanks for making me aware of this.

AGRBear  :)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 16, 2005, 11:36:38 AM
Quote
I am not being sarcastic here so pleasedon't take it that way. Let's say they were executed somewhere else? What does that tell us? Does it matter? Please explain.


I think it's possible that  Yurovsky was  telling us  lies about the night of the 16/17th of July in the Ipatiev House.  I may be alone in this opinion, however,   I find that it is important to discover if he did and if he did, it's just important to find out why.

What does it matter?  I don't like being told lies and I'd like the truth of what happen to be known.  

The nine were found in the mass grave, so, they obviously didn't survive.  I guess to some, it doesn't matter what night they died. But it does to me.  If they were executed later, then all the reasons given why they killed Alexandra and the childrren by Yurovsky and later the CHEKA, Soviet Urals, communists and KGB were lies.  This would place them in even worst light, I think.

We don't know about the two missing.

How can we know and start looking in the right places for answers  if we can't untangle the lies from the truth of what happen that night???

For all we know, one of the girls may have survived.  Even Alexei may have survived up and into probably his twenties.

Now, remember, I don't think AA was Anastasia, nor do I think any claimant I'm familiar with have proven they are children of Nicholas II and Alexandra.

It's just I can't seem to get past all those drunken guards and all those people who were said to have been a part of the various buriels but  just handful of men have given testimonies, which, in fact,  differ in some of the key facts.

Am I "netpicking"?  I don't think I am.
Am I looking for the truth?  Yep.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on April 16, 2005, 11:48:01 AM
Bear, I am eternally tired of you claiming you are looking for 'the truth' while calling most everything we already know 'lies'- so where will it end? And for the 85th time, what will it take to make something the 'truth' to you?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 16, 2005, 12:04:35 PM
While Annie rests up for my "eternal" search for the truth, let me pull over some of the evidence which I found interesting:

Quote
I had to look up who Alexander Kirsta was and I had forgotten about him and how he was invovled in the investigation.

According to File On the Tsar p. 326 Summers and Mangold tell us that it was Kirsta, the Head of Military Control on 8 March 1919 and on 2 April 1919 takes the testimony of the nurse Mutnykh.   He backed this statement five others who were (1) Ivan Girschfeld, a German, (2) Sibiryev, local postal clerk, (3) Yegeniya Sokolova; (4) Glafyra Malysleva, who had a napkin from the royal family's "stuff",  (5) name unknown, listed as a patient from a local invalid hospital....

Mutnykh's story tells us, also,   she was not alone when she saw Alexandra and three of her daughters.  With her was Anna Kostina, the secretary to  Grigory Zinoviev.  [Note: she said three daughters, not four.]

This testimony,  let me note, again, wasn't until March and then again in April of 1919.  This was some seven and eight months after July 1918.  

Was side tracked on Mutnykh's story.

Back to Kirsta.

On page 323,  Summers and Mangold tell us that Kirsta was part of General Gaida investigation which was not part of Sokolov's.  Gaida was a member of the Ugolovny Rozysk  [CID = Criminal Investigation Division].....  Gaida didn't trust the Whites who quickly declared the Royal Family as being executed and were probably the source who were spreading the "rumors" about the daughters and Tsarina having been raped, etc. etc..   Gaida's collection did not include the White Army investigators collection.

If the Perm witnesses were part of some kind of conspiracy,  I wouldn't know.  Greg indicates this may have been the case.  But,  Gaida wasn't new at investigations.  And,  if you ask my opinion, until I'm given good reason to change my mind,  I think Gaida's data might  be more accurate than the Reds or the Whites about what happen to the Royal Family and the others.

Greg,  what do you have on Gaida and why is his data, in your opinion,  considered as being not as accurate as other investigators?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on April 16, 2005, 10:12:06 PM
Quote

Am I looking for the truth?  Yep.

AGRBear


Are you searching for truth or facts?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 17, 2005, 07:37:46 AM
Quote

Are you searching for truth or facts?


Shouldn't they be one and the same?  Sometimes I wonder if Bear realizes that...  

I guess it just depends on whose "truth" you're is searching for, eh Bear ;) ?  8)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 17, 2005, 11:28:05 AM
Quote

Shouldn't they be one and the same?  Sometimes I wonder if Bear realizes that...  

I guess it just depends on whose "truth" you're is searching for, eh Bear ;) ?  8)


I have given you some facts, and, if you care to talk about them instead of Bear then let's talk about them. If you do not, I guess the facts are without challenges, therefore the facts from Summers and Mangold  I've mention will stand as true.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on April 17, 2005, 12:26:31 PM
Oh please! Summers and Mangold stand as true? Sure, and aliens took Marilyn Monroe away and replaced her with an android too ::) The family, other than Mikhail, was NOT in Perm. They were in Ekaterinburg, where they died. That's a historical fact. And once again, we can't all have our own 'truths' in cases where there is only one right answer. The truth is the truth, everything else was just incorrect guesses. (like File on the Tsar!)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 17, 2005, 12:53:49 PM
Annie's  remark, "....aliens took Marilyn Monroe away and replaced her with an android."

Does this remark present a challenge to Summers and Mangold's findings?  I don't think they mentioned aliens, Mariyln Monroe or androids.  I am quite sure, Annie's remark has nothing to do with facts showing us that  these seven people, who gave testimony,  were lying about what they saw in Perm.  And, we know she certainly is NOT telling us the Summers and Mangold fabricated evidence.

Does anyone have proof these seven were lying or just speculations?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on April 17, 2005, 01:07:55 PM
Sigh. How many times to I have to say it? No one was lying, however, there were rumors, many intentionally planted by the Bolsheviks to cover up the fact that Alix and the girls had been killed (and surely you do remember the Princesses of German blood story, it is well documented here. Perhaps FA can repost it) The family was NOT in Perm. This is silly. The family were killed in Ekaterinburg and buried in the forest. There is no way anyone would take them to another town, shoot them the next day, then dump them in the SAME hole! It is absolutely illogical and ridiculous. Can you produce proof that all accounts of the family being killed in Ekaterinburg on July 16 are lies? If not, I guess they must stand as true! :D
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 17, 2005, 01:42:35 PM
Quote
Sigh. How many times to I have to say it? No one was lying, however, there were rumors, many intentionally planted by the Bolsheviks to cover up the fact that Alix and the girls had been killed (and surely you do remember the Princesses of German blood story, it is well documented here. Perhaps FA can repost it) The family was NOT in Perm. This is silly. The family were killed in Ekaterinburg and buried in the forest. There is no way anyone would take them to another town, shoot them the next day, then dump them in the SAME hole! It is absolutely illogical and ridiculous. Can you produce proof that all accounts of the family being killed in Ekaterinburg on July 16 are lies? If not, I guess they must stand as true! :D


Annie:  >>No one was lying<<
Bear:  Okay

Annie:  >> however, there were rumors, many intentionally planted by the Bolsheviks to cover up the fact that Alix and the girls had been killed<<
Bear:  There are wittnesses who said members of the IF were taken to a waiting train.  Of course, these people didn't know where the train was headed.  I assume away from the Whites who were on all the tracks to the east and south and north.  So, the train took them west and probably to Perm where the Bolsheviks Red Army had contol.  And, [this shouldn't be a surprise], it's in Perm where other eye witnesses claim they saw them.

Annie:  >>remember the Princesses of German blood story<<
Bear:  You've asked me this before and I'm sorry I don't know the story

Annie:>> The family were killed in Ekaterinburg<<
Bear:  That is what the Bolsheviks want us to believe and if there was evdience that this did not happen they had 61 years to erase all evidence before the bodies were publicly dug up in 1979.

Annie: >> and buried in the forest.<<
Bear Ans:  Yes, at some point in time nine were buried in Pig's Meadow.

Annie: >> There is no way anyone would take them to another town, shoot them the next day, then dump them in the SAME hole! It is absolutely illogical and ridiculous.<<
Bear:  According to the your speculation, I'd agree.  But according to these eyewitnesses the timeline is different and shows a  lenght of time had passed before they vanished from Perm and their actual execution.  What is illogical is the speculation that if Alexandra and the girls were executed later that the Bolsheviks would have announced this fact.  The Bolsheviks were already caught in a tangle of lies such as did they or didn't they send them away or did they or did they not kill them on the night of 16/17 th of July stories already circulating.

Annie: >>Can you produce proof that all accounts of the family being killed in Ekaterinburg on July 16 are lies?<<
Bear:   I think that is what I'm trying to discover and was hoping for some interesting challenges to the various evidence like the people's testimonies who claim they saw Alexandra and three/four of her daughters in Perm.  And, I do believe this thread is about  the Perm stories.

I was not the one who started this thread, it was sokolova who said she was interested in the "story about the Grand Duchesses and the Tsarina being sent to Perm that was (allegedly) told by AA in later life".

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Denise on April 17, 2005, 04:25:39 PM
Fact is, Bear, if AA told stories of the IF being in Perm, it is an even bigger reason to doubt them. Honestly, the woman told stories reflecting whatever anyone wanted to hear.  

A am not saying that AA was not believable in her day.  But when you look back over 60 years of claims, it seems that she changed her story to get an in with whoever she was talking to.  With Summers and Mangold, it was the "nobody died but I can't say more" story.  Of course she couldn't say more, she didn't want to make up a story that would contradict the stories of the past 50 years!  

Are there any other sources besides S&M that talk about Perm?  And, if the Perm story were true, which I doubt, where is a single witness claiming to know how the daughters and empress were killed?  As mangled and jumbled as the many accounts may be of the IF murder, they all speak of the same 11 people dying in the cellar that night.  

Denise
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 17, 2005, 05:07:00 PM
To whom and when did AA claim this?  

Was this before or after Summers and Mangold talk about it in their book?

Source, please.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Georgiy on April 17, 2005, 05:39:34 PM
It was in the book File on the Tsar.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 17, 2005, 06:41:17 PM
I do not recall Summers' and Mangold's book telling us that  AA  talked about being in Perm.

They talked about the possibility that GD Anastasia was in Perm and that she might have tried to escape once or twice.

It was  sokolova who said:
Quote

...[in part]...
I'm interested in the story about the Grand Duchesses and the Tsarina being sent to Perm  that was (allegedly) told by AA in later life.

Sokolova


So, I am wondered: Where does it say that AA told this story [Perm] in later life?

If not in Summers and Mangold then where?

Or, if I'm wrong, do you recall the page.

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Denise on April 18, 2005, 06:45:47 AM
Quote

I was not the one who started this thread, it was sokolova who said she was interested in the "story about the Grand Duchesses and the Tsarina being sent to Perm that was (allegedly) told by AA in later life".

AGRBear


I was not taking it as fact Bear, that AA said the IF was in Perm.  I based it on the sentence you have above from sokolova.  

My point being that AA was not a reliable witness for anything.  I'll pull out FOTT and see what I can find.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on April 18, 2005, 08:36:27 AM
It seems I remember Helen A. posting once that AA had changed her story to the "no one died I cannot tell you more" tale AFTER "The File on the Tsar" came out. This would make sense, since IF it had been true (which it certainly wasn't) she'd have looked the fool for saying all those years that the family was killed, so she had to say that to cover herself- just in case. As Denise said, she couldn't 'tell you more' because she really didn't know anything and didn't want to contradict other stories and show herself up! Now, whether AA honestly thought this up herself or someone told her to do it, we will never know.

Edited to say: as far as I've seen, the 'cannot tell you more' comment was not in a book, but in a video and audio clip of her speaking sometime in the late 70's (after the book came out in 1976.) I have seen this clip myself many times, but do not know how to find it now.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Elisabeth on April 18, 2005, 09:00:55 AM
The quote is from Summers and Mangold, FOTT, p. 239. They write:

In 1974, when we were with her in Virginia, she suddenly exclaimed, "There was no massacre there... but I cannot tell the rest."

As I recall FOTT made something of a stir when it came out, and as a result, there were some TV interviews of Anna Anderson done around this time, where she might have made additional comments along the same lines. But this quote from FOTT is the original quote.

By saying this to Summers and Mangold, AA was obviously taking care to cover every possible base. It could not have escaped her that they had new information about Ekaterinburg - they might even have shared some of it with her, since they were specifically interviewing her for their new book. As I've said elsewhere, I don't think there was any deliberate attempt on the part of Summers and Mangold to deceive their readers, although AA was no doubt trying to deceive them.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Denise on April 18, 2005, 09:02:26 AM
Quote

Edited to say: as far as I've seen, the 'cannot tell you more' comment was not in a book, but in a video and audio clip of her speaking sometime in the late 70's (after the book came out in 1976.) I have seen this clip myself many times, but do not know how to find it now.


Thanks Annie!!  I knew that someone would know more on that particular quote.  There are so many books, posts and TV interviews/documentaries I have seen or read that getting the exact source in hand can be frustrating.  

And overall, despite her pretence of being AN, I find AA so pitiful in a way--always having to come up with new "revelations" to keep her claim of royalty to the forefront.  She never really got to live a real life, free of pretence.  Of course, in later years she had dementia, so it probably didn't matter anymore.  

Now off to look at FOTT to see if there are any chestnuts of truth from AA worth posting!  ;D
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on April 18, 2005, 09:06:08 AM
Quote


Annie:  >>remember the Princesses of German blood story<<
Bear:  You've asked me this before and I'm sorry I don't know the story


Okay one more time: it was later revealed that, as part of the deal with the Germans and the treaty that got Russia out of the war, that 'the Princesses of German blood' would be delivered safely to the Germans. This included, I'm assuming, Alix, OTMA and Ella. But the Ural Bolsheviks, being out of close contact with the head gov't, did not know this. Once they found out, it was too late, they were already dead. So this is why they started spreading the rumors about seeing this or that GD around alive- to hide the fact that they were already dead, and make it look like they went missing and it wasn't their fault! Once I heard this story, recently reported here on this forum by FA, that was a big loose end tied up for me. That explains all the 'sightings' and 'searches' for 'missing' GD stories!

As I also recently posted, as a matter of fact earlier in this thread, this was not outrageous or uncommon. The assassins who killed Ella and the others admitted in their memoirs that they didn't admit to the killings when they happened, they went back to the town, rang a bell, and declared that the prisoners had been 'taken away by unknown persons.' This of course was not true, but it left doubt in most people, some believed it, some wondered, but it wasn't true. So, if it was done for those victims, what is to say that it could not and did not happen with the IF too? That's exactly what happened, there was no one really in Perm, it was just planted rumors to hide what really happened.

The most ironic thing about all these escape stories is that those who buy into them always think that the Bolsheviks were trying to hide the fact that they were alive, when in reality, the OPPOSITE was true, they were trying to hide the fact that they were DEAD! They only admitted to the world to killing Nicholas, and even large newspapers like The New York Times reported it as fact that the Tsar had been shot but the family was safe in an undisclosed location. But this was not true!



Quote
Annie:>> The family were killed in Ekaterinburg<<
Bear:  That is what the Bolsheviks want us to believe and if there was evdience that this did not happen they had 61 years to erase all evidence before the bodies were publicly dug up in 1979.


*screams* I think it's time we got this smilie on this forum:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Olga on April 18, 2005, 09:19:09 AM
Annie, where did you get that smilie?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 18, 2005, 09:20:19 AM
Quote

I think it's time we got this smilie on this forum:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)


Excellent idea! FA, what do you think  ;)?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Denise on April 18, 2005, 09:26:29 AM
OK. Found a couple things from FOTT related to what we were just discussing.  It is obvious from this that S&M did NOT believe AA was GDA.  On page 239:

We have tried to strip away some of the misconceptions, and have included many unpublished details, without attempting any conclusions.  But we note, finally, that the claimant herself has twice declared that the written and courtroom account of her survival is inaccurate.  Anna Anderson's affidavits have been pieced together in good faith by her supporters, who assumed, like everyone else, that the Sokolov version was basically correct.

True to form, her own comments on the fate of the family remain an enigma.  During the sixties she told Prince Frederick of Saxe Altenburg:  "Events in Ekaterinburg were quite different from what they say.  But if I say that, they think I'm mad."

In 1974, when we were with her in Virginia, she suddenly exclaimed: "There was no massacre there...but I cannot tell the rest."


Obviously, chestnuts of truth was stretching it.  As I stated earlier, AA seems to have made a career of adapting her story to the audience.  

Back to the Perm story, already in progress.....


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Denise on April 18, 2005, 09:30:35 AM
Quote

*screams* I think it's time we got this smilie on this forum:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)



I third this motion!  Great smilie....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Elisabeth on April 18, 2005, 09:54:06 AM
Quote
Okay one more time: it was later revealed that, as part of the deal with the Germans and the treaty that got Russia out of the war, that 'the Princesses of German blood' would be delivered safely to the Germans. This included, I'm assuming, Alix, OTMA and Ella. But the Ural Bolsheviks, being out of close contact with the head gov't, did not know this. Once they found out, it was too late, they were already dead. So this is why they started spreading the rumors about seeing this or that GD around alive- to hide the fact that they were already dead, and make it look like they went missing and it wasn't their fault!


There was no "secret clause" in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk that dealt with the fate of the "German princesses." The Kaiser might have cared what happened to his Russian relatives, but the German generals did not, and they were hardly going to make it a sticking point in negotiations with Trotsky for the surrender of a vast portion of the western Russian empire to their forces.

Whatever he pretended to the outside world, Lenin never had any intention of letting the Romanov women fall into German hands. Never. I know the German negotiations theory is the one most frequently advanced to excuse Lenin and his cohorts in Moscow of ordering the murders of the IF, but I have serious doubts as to its validity. Of course there is no definitive proof that Lenin was ultimately responsible for the murders. But look at it this way: he wasn't going to leave a paper trail linking his government to the murder of innocent women and children, especially when the German embassy was making repeated inquiries into the welfare of these women and children. After the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, the Bolsheviks were in no position to give the Germans a flat-out no, all they could do was pretend to be cooperating where the "German princesses" were concerned.

The fact of the matter is, if the Kremlin really was surprised and outraged by the murder of the IF in Ekaterinburg and the Romanovs at Alapaevsk, they were idiots. Only the month before, in June, the Ural Bolsheviks had murdered Grand Duke Michael in Perm. Was there hell to pay on that occasion? No, not even a sharp rebuke from Moscow. Obviously Lenin wanted all the Romanovs dead before they could fall into White - or German - hands. If he could pretend to blame the murder of Michael, and all the subsequent murders, on a handful of renegade Ural Bolsheviks, then all the better.

What's most telling is that Lenin never once punished any of the ranking Ural Bolsheviks involved in the murders. On the contrary, they all flourished under his regime. Cynical? Yes, but that's the way smart tyrants do things. To give the most famous example, to this day there is no paper trail and no direct evidence linking Hitler to the Final Solution. Yet we all know he ordered it!

I wouldn't be surprised if some ranking Moscow Bolshevik like Sverdlov actually ordered the Ural Bolsheviks to spread rumors about the survival of the imperial women, because it was in the Kremlin's best interests to hide the murders. That is, I don't think the Ural Bolsheviks were trying to deceive Moscow, IMO they'd been told by Moscow to deceive both Germany and the approaching White army.

But to return to the "Perm story:" at least three of the "witnesses" who reported sighting the imperial women were linked to the Ural Bolsheviks. The main witness, Natalia Mutnykh, was the sister of the secretary to the Ural Regional Soviet. Another, Glafira Malysheva, was married to a Perm communist, whose mother also testified to the presence of the grand duchesses in Perm. If AGR Bear wants to be absolutely consistent, and continue to dismiss out of hand the evidence of anyone linked to the Bolsheviks, then she has to dismiss the evidence of these three witnesses as well. That leaves a considerable hole in the "Perm story."
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 18, 2005, 10:16:35 AM
Quote
OK. Found a couple things from FOTT related to what we were just discussing.  It is obvious from this that S&M did NOT believe AA was GDA.  On page 239:

We have tried to strip away some of the misconceptions, and have included many unpublished details, without attempting any conclusions.  But we note, finally, that the claimant herself has twice declared that the written and courtroom account of her survival is inaccurate.  Anna Anderson's affidavits have been pieced together in good faith by her supporters, who assumed, like everyone else, that the Sokolov version was basically correct.

True to form, her own comments on the fate of the family remain an enigma.  During the sixties she told Prince Frederick of Saxe Altenburg:  "Events in Ekaterinburg were quite different from what they say.  But if I say that, they think I'm mad."

In 1974, when we were with her in Virginia, she suddenly exclaimed: "There was no massacre there...but I cannot tell the rest."



Denise, I may be interpreting this the wrong way, but from this excerpt you posted, it doesn't sound to me like S & M disbelieve that AA was the Grand Duchess. They are presenting her current side of the story and sort of offering an explanation of why she changed her story now (i.e. her supporters made it up, she didn't, she tried to tell "the truth" but was afraid everyone would think she is "mad", etc.). It seems to me almost as if they are trying to use these AA statements to say, "see even AA says now that the massacre didn't happen"... But it seems to me that they are leaving their decision as to whether AA was AN open.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 18, 2005, 10:26:58 AM
Elisabeth, I agree with what you said above.

Quote
If AGR Bear wants to be absolutely consistent, and continue to dismiss out of hand the evidence of anyone linked to the Bolsheviks, then she has to dismiss the evidence of these three witnesses as well.

This is what I call "selective evidence" approach, which some here are very good at  ;). Good luck reasoning with the Bear about that (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif) (I have a feeling many of us will be using this last smileycon a lot from now on  ;D)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Denise on April 18, 2005, 10:40:05 AM
Quote

Denise, I may be interpreting this the wrong way, but from this excerpt you posted, it doesn't sound to me like S & M disbelieve that AA was the Grand Duchess. They are presenting her current side of the story and sort of offering an explanation of why she changed her story now (i.e. her supporters made it up, she didn't, she tried to tell "the truth" but was afraid everyone would think she is "mad", etc.). It seems to me almost as if they are trying to use these AA statements to say, "see even AA says now that the massacre didn't happen"... But it seems to me that they are leaving their decision as to whether AA was AN open.  


The way I read the chapter in the book, they are in doubt that she is AN.    After meeting her, they state "all we could say on leaving was that we had met a kind, amiable and higly eccentric old lady." pg 200.

And then on page 237:

The greatest weakness to her claim, from the very start of her story in Berlin, has been that she failed to explain convincingly how she alone survived the massacre of her family in Ekaterinburg.  The story of her miraculoys survival, and the melodramatic crosscountry flight to Roumania [sic], lacks credibility and corraboration.  There have been witnesses who testified that one grand duchess was rescued from the Ipatiev house, and that a house-to-house searcg took place in the neighborhood the night the imperial family vanished in 1918.  But the testimony about the escape did not convince the German judges,  and it did not convince us....

The chapter presents many theories trying to fit AA into the known story of AN and what happened in Ekaterinburg.  They say that they don't believe her escape story, but go on to say that all the other evidence (supporters, graphology, the bunions, ears etc ) seem to be beyond coincidence.  I read the chapter as saying that the authors personally may not accept AA as AN, but this evidence may prove it otherwise.  In keeping with this is the quote I placed earlier.  

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 18, 2005, 11:04:54 AM
Oh ok, thanks. I haven't read this book, and was only going by the excerpt you posted earlier...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 18, 2005, 02:16:26 PM
Looks like all that banging of heads has losen the gears in all your heads and, finally, you're starting to offer posts that are interesting and full of information of which I know all of you are capable.

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Denise on April 18, 2005, 03:42:10 PM
Quote
Looks like all that banging of heads has losen the gears in all your heads and, finally, you're starting to offer posts that are interesting and full of information of which I know all of you are capable.

Thanks.

AGRBear


You wound me Bear!!  I was under the impression you thought more highly of me than that!  ;) 8) ;)

Denise
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 18, 2005, 05:13:38 PM
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Annie's  remark, "....aliens took Marilyn Monroe away and replaced her with an android."

Does this remark present a challenge to Summers and Mangold's findings?  I don't think they mentioned aliens, Mariyln Monroe or androids.  I am quite sure, Annie's remark has nothing to do with facts showing us that  these seven people, who gave testimony,  were lying about what they saw in Perm.  And, we know she certainly is NOT telling us the Summers and Mangold fabricated evidence.

Does anyone have proof these seven were lying or just speculations?

AGRBear


Are two of the Perm "witnesses" the women who "recognized" the Empress and some of her daughters in the "weak candle light"?

Don't you think it's a bit of a stretch for a peasant/perhaps worker to not only positively identify someone in very dim light but persons whom they had never had contact with before?  Aside from a few photos?

The Bolsheviks specialized in spread of misinformation, among other things. These witnesses were either part of this program, or (what is far more likely) attention whores with vivid imaginations.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on April 19, 2005, 07:14:47 AM
      I must agree with Vera...How could a local person without the modern benefits of constant media reinforcement be so certain that it was in fact the tsarina and her daughters with no discussion ("Hello, I'm Alexandra Feoderovna and here are my charming children...") in a poorly lit cellar?

HMMMM ....

rskkiya
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Olga on April 19, 2005, 08:30:02 AM
Quote
Looks like all that banging of heads has losen the gears in all your heads and, finally, you're starting to offer posts that are interesting and full of information of which I know all of you are capable.


If that is the case Bear, maybe you could do with some head banging aswell.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 19, 2005, 08:59:12 AM
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Looks like all that banging of heads has losen the gears in all your heads and, finally, you're starting to offer posts that are interesting and full of information of which I know all of you are capable.


Bear, what is your definition of "posts that are interesting and full of information"?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on April 19, 2005, 10:25:03 AM
Quote

Bear, what is your definition of "posts that are interesting and full of information"?


Evidently, nothing in the DNA evidence thread  :(
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 19, 2005, 10:46:15 AM
Quote

Evidently, nothing in the DNA evidence thread  :(


Or nothing else, apparently, that consists of solid or conclusive evidence.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 19, 2005, 11:14:51 AM
Quote

Bear, what is your definition of "posts that are interesting and full of information"?


Posts dealing with the topic were good  ;D

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 19, 2005, 11:23:43 AM
Quote

Are two of the Perm "witnesses" the women who "recognized" the Empress and some of her daughters in the "weak candle light"?

Don't you think it's a bit of a stretch for a peasant/perhaps worker to not only positively identify someone in very dim light but persons whom they had never had contact with before?  Aside from a few photos?

The Bolsheviks specialized in spread of misinformation, among other things. These witnesses were either part of this program, or (what is far more likely) attention whores with vivid imaginations.


Vera: >>Are two of the Perm "witnesses" the women who "recognized" the Empress and some of her daughters in the "weak candle light"?<<
Bear Ans:  Yes

Vera: >>Don't you think it's a bit of a stretch for a peasant/perhaps worker to not only positively identify someone in very dim light but persons whom they had never had contact with before?  <<
Bear Ans:  [I'll return with this information because it's important to know who they were and why they would believe they saw Alexandra and three daughters]  See Post #61 below......

Vera: >>The Bolsheviks specialized in spread of misinformation, among other things.<<
Bear Ans:  True

Vera: >> These witnesses were either part of this program, or (what is far more likely) attention whores with vivid imaginations.<<
Bear Ans:   I don't think they were "whores with vivid imaginations".

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 19, 2005, 11:34:19 AM
Vera: >>Don't you think it's a bit of a stretch for a peasant/perhaps worker to not only positively identify someone in very dim light but persons whom they had never had contact with before?

Quote

....[in part]...

...the main witnesses for the "Perm story" are also linked to the Ural Bolsheviks. Indeed, the most "credible" witness (according to Gaida) of the "Perm story," i.e., the story that the imperial women survived Ekaterinburg, was Natalia Mutnykh, who just happened to be the sister of the secretary of the Ural Regional Soviet. Gosh, I wonder who was feeding her information? Two other so-called witnesses, Glafira Malysheva and her mother, were also related to a Perm communist. So if you are going to be consistent and discredit all "Bolshevik"-linked information, you have to discredit their testimony, too ... which leaves a huge hole in the "Perm story," as even you must admit.


On the other hand, because these women were related to these men in the know, then why shouldn't we believe them?   Remember, these testimonies were given to the White investgators after it was announced that all the IF and the others had been executed by the Bolsheviks and the Whites.  So, what would be their reason to continue a fabrication of Alexandra and the three girls being in Perm?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 19, 2005, 11:39:30 AM
Quote

Vera: >> These witnesses were either part of this program, or (what is far more likely) attention whores with vivid imaginations.<<
Bear Ans:   I don't think they were "whores with vivid imaginations".

AGRBear



I am so happy you responded in this matter because it helps me illustrate the point that you have a severe tendency (at least on this forum as I have observed for a number of months) to take others words, be they authors, scholars, or amateurs, and switch them around to fit your particular interests, your particular "truth."

I am not saying this to pick on you specifically, I am commenting on extensive and thoughtful observation of your writing style and the way you apparently look at history.

If you would please note, in my post I did not say the supposed women of Perm were whores.  I said they were likely attention whores, and this is something decidedly different from an individual who sells their physical wares.

However, true to form, you have literally reversed and removed my original statement to suit your own opinions. Why do you do this so consistently?  Have you ever seriously thought about this mindset? Perhaps you are not aware of it.  Others here have attempted to discuss this issue with you, but are promptly ignored. The behavior continues.  You are very determined not to examine your very flawed historical methods.
Why is it so important to you to avoid acknowledgement that yes, you do read into things and yes, you do misconstrue and misinterpret (sometimes quite literally as in this case) others' words.

The women in question, in Perm, were members of a Red family, and as I said before, were either encouraged (they may have needed no encouragement whatsoever, as Red women were extremely devoted to their cause, blindingly so) to make the reports of seeing the Imperial types, or were simply caught up in the excitement of possibility (rumors were flying all over Russia in those days) and wanted a moment of (even local) fame for themselves.  This is very simple and the most logical explanation. Weak candlelight, views, and subsequent "identification" of people who were utter strangers to these women is implausible.  There is nothing whatsoever to indicate that these women should be relied upon in their "testimony" and every single reason to believe it was fabricated.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 19, 2005, 11:44:28 AM
Vera:
Please note that I placed in my post what you said:
----
Vera: >> These witnesses were either part of this program, or (what is far more likely) attention whores with vivid imaginations.<<
Bear Ans:   I don't think they were "whores with vivid imaginations".
----
And you are right, I should have stated that I don't think they were "attention whores with vidid imaginations".  Gosh, I wasn't even thinking in that direction which you did .... Anyway, I stand corrected.

Anyway, these women were in close assocation with people who were the people who would have taken part in the imprisionment of Alexandra and the girls, if the Perm story is true.  And, I do think their testimony is important and should be looked at more closely.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 19, 2005, 11:59:54 AM
You have much to learn about the mindset of Bolshevichki. Or even Russian women associated in any way with Bolsheviks.

You can examine their "testimony" all you wish, you are not going to find what you're looking for.  

Your hypothesis that because these women were supposedly associated with men guarding the Imperials they would have special information and or access to see for themselves and then tell tales of what they saw, is extremely flawed.

You really must learn more about the way Bolsheviks and Bolshevichki operated before pursuing this further. Unless you want to continue in the vein of irresponsible historical method.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 19, 2005, 12:10:46 PM
Huh?  :-/

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Georgiy on April 19, 2005, 04:27:21 PM
Bear, I think what she is trying to say is that the Bolsheviki and their associates put out that much disinformation that you mustn't accept their statements as being the gospel truth - indeed, be mistrustful of anything that comes from a Bolshevik source unless it can be verified independantly - they wnated to confuse people, and are still succeeding. Take everything they say with a massive grain (or several) of salt. :)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 19, 2005, 07:17:49 PM
Not exactly what I meant, though somewhat related. I would trust the word of a Bolshevik just as much as the word of an Imperialist, in other words, not at all.  I was referring in one instance quite specifically not to "Bolsheviki," (plural of Bolshevik) but of "Bolshevishki" (Female Bolsheviks).

Their ardent, martyr-like devotion to the Bolshevik cause made these women (whether "official" Bolshevishki or otherwise) willing to say and do virtually anything that would forward the party's efforts.

Some people on this forum have not studied female Russian revolutionaries and supporters of same.  If  they had, they would look at the Perm women's testimony in a very different light. They literally would have no other choice but to do so.

But it is, as usual, much easier to draw assumptions based on one's own cultural experiences and outlook. This is what is historically irresponsible, and often observed in the comments of the conspiracy theorists here.  Or those who believe works of melodrama, such as this Rescuing the Tsar fiction.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 19, 2005, 07:30:59 PM
Okay, if this is true, why didn't these two "Bolshevishki", the label Vera gave them,   sound more like Ermakov who never stopped telling everyone how much pride he held because he and the Bolshviks and executed all of them that night of the 16th/17th of July 1918???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 19, 2005, 08:22:59 PM
Quote
Okay, if this is true, why didn't these two "Bolshevishki", the label Vera gave them,   sound more like Ermakov who never stopped telling everyone how much pride he held because he and the Bolshviks and executed all of them that night of the 16th/17th of July 1918???

AGRBear


I have no idea if the women were true Bolshevichki (vishki), but if they were, as it seems to be the case, associated with Red types who were obstensibly "guarding" the Imperials, they likely shared the views of their male family members, especially if they were of the worker or peasant class.

As to why they did not rant like Ermakov (he really is in a class by himself, so that is not a very good comparison), isn't it obvious?

Why don't you think about that for a little while before asking for someone else to figure it out for you.

Think!! This isn't difficult.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on April 19, 2005, 10:25:43 PM
Quote

Okay one more time: it was later revealed that, as part of the deal with the Germans and the treaty that got Russia out of the war, that 'the Princesses of German blood' would be delivered safely to the Germans. This included, I'm assuming, Alix, OTMA and Ella. But the Ural Bolsheviks, being out of close contact with the head gov't, did not know this. Once they found out, it was too late, they were already dead. So this is why they started spreading the rumors about seeing this or that GD around alive- to hide the fact that they were already dead, and make it look like they went missing and it wasn't their fault! Once I heard this story, recently reported here on this forum by FA, that was a big loose end tied up for me. That explains all the 'sightings' and 'searches' for 'missing' GD stories!

As I also recently posted, as a matter of fact earlier in this thread, this was not outrageous or uncommon. The assassins who killed Ella and the others admitted in their memoirs that they didn't admit to the killings when they happened, they went back to the town, rang a bell, and declared that the prisoners had been 'taken away by unknown persons.' This of course was not true, but it left doubt in most people, some believed it, some wondered, but it wasn't true. So, if it was done for those victims, what is to say that it could not and did not happen with the IF too? That's exactly what happened, there was no one really in Perm, it was just planted rumors to hide what really happened.

 The most ironic thing about all these escape stories is that those who buy into them always think that the Bolsheviks were trying to hide the fact that they were alive, when in reality, the OPPOSITE was true, they were trying to hide the fact that they were DEAD! They only admitted to the world to killing Nicholas, and even large newspapers like The New York Times reported it as fact that the Tsar had been shot but the family was safe in an undisclosed location. But this was not true!




*screams* I think it's time we got this smilie on this forum:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)




I love that simile!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on April 19, 2005, 10:38:07 PM
Quote
Not exactly what I meant, though somewhat related. I would trust the word of a Bolshevik just as much as the word of an Imperialist, in other words, not at all.  I was referring in one instance quite specifically not to "Bolsheviki," (plural of Bolshevik) but of "Bolshevishki" (Female Bolsheviks).

Their ardent, martyr-like devotion to the Bolshevik cause made these women (whether "official" Bolshevishki or otherwise) willing to say and do virtually anything that would forward the party's efforts.

Some people on this forum have not studied female Russian revolutionaries and supporters of same.  If  they had, they would look at the Perm women's testimony in a very different light. They literally would have no other choice but to do so.

But it is, as usual, much easier to draw assumptions based on one's own cultural experiences and outlook. This is what is historically irresponsible, and often observed in the comments of the conspiracy theorists here.  Or those who believe works of melodrama, such as this Rescuing the Tsar fiction.


Vera, You have made very good points here as in your other posts. It is very important to realize when one studies history, that our view is colored by our own experience, culture and times.  Please correct me if I am incorrect here, but it would seem highly illogical consdering the time and the events to assume that because these women were close to certain party members or men, that they had some inside information.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on April 19, 2005, 10:48:04 PM
Quote

Are you searching for truth or facts?


Sorry. the question was philosophical in nature and probably inappropiate in this forum. But now, truth and fact are not always the same, imho
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 19, 2005, 11:04:29 PM
Quote

Vera, You have made very good points here as in your other posts. It is very important to realize when one studies history, that our view is colored by our own experience, culture and times.  Please correct me if I am incorrect here, but it would seem highly illogical consdering the time and the events to assume that because these women were close to certain party members or men, that they had some inside information.


No offense, but once again the decided lack of knowledge concerning Bolshevik and Russian revolutionary history is again evident.  It was Russian women, Bolshevichki and otherwise-revolution/reform-minded, who carried on a VAST amount of work for the revolutionary cause. They served in some leadership roles, but predominantly they were the movement's devout foot soldiers. There is every reason to believe that the women in Perm were doing what they perceived -- and let me be very clear about this -- not only perceived but believed completely and wholeheartedly, to be doing their duty. This could come in a variety of roles: serving as spy, performing administrative work, "going to the people" in factories and farms, terrorist plans (and enacting those plans), spreading misinformation to protect revolutionary interests or divert attention from acts that would harm the movement.
The role of women in Russia's revolutionary movement (from the mid 19th century thru the early 1920s) was profound on every level and cannot ever be overstated.

If you supposed otherwise and do not have a background in this area, it is understandable. It was only in Russia that women played such a large role in revolutionary/reform activities.  Was this your assumption: that women simply would not be involved on a level expressed by the women in Perm?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 20, 2005, 12:43:37 PM
Quote

I have no idea if the women were true Bolshevichki (vishki), but if they were, as it seems to be the case, associated with Red types who were obstensibly "guarding" the Imperials, they likely shared the views of their male family members, especially if they were of the worker or peasant class.

As to why they did not rant like Ermakov (he really is in a class by himself, so that is not a very good comparison), isn't it obvious?

Why don't you think about that for a little while before asking for someone else to figure it out for you.

Think!! This isn't difficult.


Vera:  >>I have no idea if the women were true Bolshevichki (vishki)...<<

You have no idea if these women were true Bolshevichki nor do we know anything else about them accept what Summers and Mangold has written.  And, this is my point.  Why don't we know more about any of these witnesses?  What else don't we know?  How many more testimonies were taken which we don't know about and probably will never find???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 20, 2005, 12:51:43 PM
Quote

No offense, but once again the decided lack of knowledge concerning Bolshevik and Russian revolutionary history is again evident.  It was Russian women, Bolshevichki and otherwise-revolution/reform-minded, who carried on a VAST amount of work for the revolutionary cause. They served in some leadership roles, but predominantly they were the movement's devout foot soldiers. There is every reason to believe that the women in Perm were doing what they perceived -- and let me be very clear about this -- not only perceived but believed completely and wholeheartedly, to be doing their duty. This could come in a variety of roles: serving as spy, performing administrative work, "going to the people" in factories and farms, terrorist plans (and enacting those plans), spreading misinformation to protect revolutionary interests or divert attention from acts that would harm the movement.
The role of women in Russia's revolutionary movement (from the mid 19th century thru the early 1920s) was profound on every level and cannot ever be overstated.

If you supposed otherwise and do not have a background in this area, it is understandable. It was only in Russia that women played such a large role in revolutionary/reform activities.  Was this your assumption: that women simply would not be involved on a level expressed by the women in Perm?


Vera:  >>There is every reason to believe that the women in Perm were doing what they perceived -- and let me be very clear about this -- not only perceived but believed completely and wholeheartedly, to be doing their duty.<<
Bear Ans:   I'm sure the investigators were well aware of these women, who they were and that the were tied to the causes of the Bolsheviks,  but still they thought them credible witnesses and took their testimonies and came up with the conclusion from these testimonies and who knows how many others that the excution of Nicholas II and the others might have been staged by the CHEKA.

Vera: >>If you supposed otherwise and do not have a background in this area, it is understandable...<<
Bear Ans: Vera, you don't even know me, so, I'm  sure you are not aware where I've gone to school or my educational background.  Heck, I might have been one of your classmates or your teacher for all you know.  So, don't assume what I know and what I don't know, please.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 20, 2005, 12:51:44 PM
Quote

Vera:  >>I have no idea if the women were true Bolshevichki (vishki)...<<

You have no idea if these women were true Bolshevichki nor do we know anything else about them accept what Summers and Mangold has written.  And, this is my point.  Why don't we know more about any of these witnesses?  What else don't we know?  How many more testimonies were taken which we don't know about and probably will never find???

AGRBear


You know, over in that nasty absurd FS/AA/AN who the *$#% cares thread, you are BIG on inference, Bear.
The same inference can be drawn about these women in Perm.
Circumstances:  1. State of Ural, major Red center. Probably only a handful of Imperialists there. 2. Women closely associated with supposed Red guards -- very likely Bolshevichki or Bolshevik-sympathetic.  3. The climate was not friendly to types OTHER than Red supporters.  4. Even if they were not revolutionaries or sympathizers, they fed off of rumors flying around and decided to make a moment of fame/gossip for themselves.

These types of circumstances are IDENTICAL to the ones pushed on the "identity" threads.  You would not accept the same here, would you?  Of course not (doesn't fit with the fantasy, I know).

You really do live in a la la land, Bear. Good for you!
Happy Trails
Vera
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 20, 2005, 01:09:35 PM
Quote
...[in part]...

The same inference can be drawn about these women in Perm.
Circumstances:  1. State of Ural, major Red center. Probably only a handful of Imperialists there. 2. Women closely associated with supposed Red guards -- very likely Bolshevichki or Bolshevik-sympathetic.  3. The climate was not friendly to types OTHER than Red supporters.  4. Even if they were not revolutionaries or sympathizers, they fed off of rumors flying around and decided to make a moment of fame/gossip for themselves.

....Vera


Vera: >>1. State of Ural, major Red center. Probably only a handful of Imperialists there<<
Bear Ans:  The White had taken control of the area and would have control of Ekaterinburg area for about a year and that is when most of the early investigators talked to the eye witness.  I think Summers and Mangold mention the dates but I don't have the book next to me at the moment.  But if any wants it, I can find it later.

Vera: >>Women closely associated with supposed Red guards -- very likely Bolshevichki or Bolshevik-sympathetic. <<
Bear Ans:  I agree it is highly possible

Vera: >>3. The climate was not friendly to types OTHER than Red supporters.<<
Bear Ans. :  At that time they were surrounded by Whites which have been the reason behind their answer if it was a lie but this testimony was backed by five others who were not Reds or as closely connected as these two women

Vera: >>4. Even if they were not revolutionaries or sympathizers, they fed off of rumors flying around and decided to make a moment of fame/gossip for themselves<<
Bear Ans: Again, I'll agree.  There were a lot of rumors flying.  So, where and when do we start sorting out the "red herrings" and the "white herrings"?  On this thread and others?  I think we can.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 20, 2005, 01:39:35 PM
Quote

Vera: >>1. State of Ural, major Red center. Probably only a handful of Imperialists there<<
Bear Ans:  The White had taken control of the area and would have control of Ekaterinburg area for about a year and that is when most of the early investigators talked to the eye witness.  I think Summers and Mangold mention the dates but I don't have the book next to me at the moment.  But if any wants it, I can find it later.

Vera: >>Women closely associated with supposed Red guards -- very likely Bolshevichki or Bolshevik-sympathetic. <<
Bear Ans:  I agree it is highly possible

Vera: >>3. The climate was not friendly to types OTHER than Red supporters.<<
Bear Ans. :  At that time they were surrounded by Whites which have been the reason behind their answer if it was a lie but this testimony was backed by five others who were not Reds or as closely connected as these two women

Vera: >>4. Even if they were not revolutionaries or sympathizers, they fed off of rumors flying around and decided to make a moment of fame/gossip for themselves<<
Bear Ans: Again, I'll agree.  There were a lot of rumors flying.  So, where and when do we start sorting out the "red herrings" and the "white herrings"?  On this thread and others?  I think we can.

AGRBear


Proper historical method demands evidence.  There is none, only hearsay, with regard to the Perm stories.  They are of course, intriguing, but in the light of the evidence we DO have (that the entire family were killed in Ekaterinburg 7.16-17), the discovered remains, the DNA, the stories cannot be taken seriously. There is so much wistful, wishful thinking in this case. It is a typical human trait to feel this way, but history is not about feelings and wishes and wants. It's about facts. I personally do not buy into the psycho-history theories, which is kin to the inferences drawn in this case.

I believe these stories should be set aside, and if evidence ever does turn up, they may prove valuable. Until then, they are only speculations, and not part of serious historical discussion.

However, those who never evolved from the fantasy stage of learning history, I'm sure it is a marvelous past time!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 20, 2005, 02:08:01 PM
There were a lot of rumors flying.  So, where and when do we start sorting out the "red herrings" and the "white herrings"?  On this thread and others?  I think we can.

As to witsful or wishful thinking, no, not hardly my thoughts.  I think the execution of Alexandra and the three girls, maybe the fourth, was horrific no matter if it occured in the Ipatiev House or later  by the mass grave.

This thread is about the Perm Story.

And, I thought Vera was being very nice with her information on the women who were part of the Bolshvik Counter Revolution.  And, I'm sure others would like to hear more about the possible mind set of these two women witnesses who gave testimonies.

AGRBear

 
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 20, 2005, 02:30:13 PM
Quote
There were a lot of rumors flying.  So, where and when do we start sorting out the "red herrings" and the "white herrings"?  On this thread and others?  I think we can.

As to witsful or wishful thinking, no, not hardly my thoughts.  I think the execution of Alexandra and the three girls, maybe the fourth, was horrific no matter if it occured in the Ipatiev House or later  by the mass grave.

This thread is about the Perm Story.

And, I thought Vera was being very nice with her information on the women who were part of the Bolshvik Counter Revolution.  And, I'm sure others would like to hear more about the possible mind set of these two women witnesses who gave testimonies.

AGRBear

 


~~sigh~~ Again, attempting to sort through rumors with no evidence to back them up from any direction, is an exercise in futility.  Until, and unless something more definitive turns up, it's just gossip and fantasy.

And that's just not my cup of tea, at least with regard to history.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 20, 2005, 02:36:55 PM
 I continue to think Vera was being very nice with her information on the women who were part of the Bolshvik Counter Revolution.  And, I'm sure others would like to hear more about the possible mind set of these two women witnesses who gave testimonies.

Just as I'd like to know why these two women would lie about seeing Alexandra and her three daughters if everyone already knew that the Whites and the Bolsheviks had already claimed they had been executed on the 16th/17th.

In my mind, it just doesn't fall into the list of evidence which should be ignored and only pulled it out later if needed...

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 20, 2005, 10:53:05 PM
Quote
I continue to think Vera was being very nice with her information on the women who were part of the Bolshvik Counter Revolution.  And, I'm sure others would like to hear more about the possible mind set of these two women witnesses who gave testimonies.

Just as I'd like to know why these two women would lie about seeing Alexandra and her three daughters if everyone already knew that the Whites and the Bolsheviks had already claimed they had been executed on the 16th/17th.

In my mind, it just doesn't fall into the list of evidence which should be ignored and only pulled it out later if needed...

AGRBear


The Perm story comes from the investigation of Kirsta. Since we cannot cross examine the testimony of the two women, we have to analyze the data that is available. Since no Romanov remains have been found in the environs of Perm, there is no non-Bolshevik confirmation of this information (the sighting of the Empress and her daughters) that can make this report more credible. When added together with the fact there were remains of those sighted  found elsewhere (i.e. Koptyaki Forest) AND that the testimony came from women with ties to the Reds, this means the reports are most likely false.

Therefore, the mindsets of the women giving testimony is irrelevant in determining the accuracy of their information. People may or may not be interested in their mindsets, but it is no less irrelevant.

As to why the women would lie, the fate of the Imperial women was NOT widely known immediately after the murders. The remaining Ural Reds had many reasons to mislead the Whites. Even without these reasons, the Bolsheviks were a regime founded on lies - IOW, they would often lie for sport.

I don't think anyone is "ignorning" the testimony of the two women, nor do I thing anyone is suggesting it be saved for later. Rather, these women's testimony has been - correctly I think - determined to be unreliable, therefore most likely false. Surely you are aware in a situation such as this that there will be false as well as truthful statements!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 21, 2005, 10:34:34 AM
Quote

The Perm story comes from the investigation of Kirsta. Since we cannot cross examine the testimony of the two women, we have to analyze the data that is available. Since no Romanov remains have been found in the environs of Perm, there is no non-Bolshevik confirmation of this information (the sighting of the Empress and her daughters) that can make this report more credible. When added together with the fact there were remains of those sighted  found elsewhere (i.e. Koptyaki Forest) AND that the testimony came from women with ties to the Reds, this means the reports are most likely false.

Therefore, the mindsets of the women giving testimony is irrelevant in determining the accuracy of their information. People may or may not be interested in their mindsets, but it is no less irrelevant.

As to why the women would lie, the fate of the Imperial women was NOT widely known immediately after the murders. The remaining Ural Reds had many reasons to mislead the Whites. Even without these reasons, the Bolsheviks were a regime founded on lies - IOW, they would often lie for sport.

I don't think anyone is "ignorning" the testimony of the two women, nor do I thing anyone is suggesting it be saved for later. Rather, these women's testimony has been - correctly I think - determined to be unreliable, therefore most likely false. Surely you are aware in a situation such as this that there will be false as well as truthful statements!


Lisa:  >>Since no Romanov remains have been found in the environs of Perm, there is no non-Bolshevik confirmation of this information <<
Bear Ans:  The bodies of Alexandra and three daughters were found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.  I never said they were not.  But this doesn't mean they were not taken to Perm before exeuction.  If indeed these four were taken to Perm and then executed, this would make the CHEKA look even worst than they were when claiming they had executed them in the Ipatiev House because they feared the IF rescue by the Whites

Lisa: >>...the testimony came from women with ties to the Reds, this means the reports are most likely false.<<
Bear Ans.:  There were five other people who testified they saw Alexandra and the three daughters.  There were others who saw the person they thought might have been Anastasia found in the woods, with REDs along a train track, etc. etc.,  Some thought Anasatasia attempted two escapes.... Some described Anastasia correctly.  There were others who did not and this is probably because more than one person was captured by the various groups of Reds searching for the "missing" Anastasia.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Olga on April 21, 2005, 10:41:51 AM
Bear, why is this the only place in which you will believe the word of a Red?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 21, 2005, 10:47:17 AM
Because you've told me that I should believe some of them some of the time  ;D

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Olga on April 21, 2005, 10:56:57 AM
No, you believe them now because what they say fits in with your theories.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 21, 2005, 11:50:57 AM
And you don't believe them because it doesn't fit your opinions.

Not true?

So tell me: Why don't you believe them?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 21, 2005, 02:48:18 PM
One thing about the Bear I already observed - she has a syndrome called "selective evidencinitus".  ;D
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Georgiy on April 21, 2005, 03:58:30 PM
I have a feeling that people who probably only ever saw the glamourous formal photos of the Imperial Family would be extremely poorly placed to judge what the Empress and her daughters would look like after a couple of years imprisonment, and in poor lighting. They'd have been wrecks, and mere shadows of their former selves.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 21, 2005, 04:16:03 PM
Quote
I have a feeling that people who probably only ever saw the glamourous formal photos of the Imperial Family would be extremely poorly placed to judge what the Empress and her daughters would look like after a couple of years imprisonment, and in poor lighting. They'd have been wrecks, and mere shadows of their former selves.


This is probable true.  So what / who was it that made them ALL think they were Alexandra and her  daughters?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 21, 2005, 08:53:40 PM
Quote

This is probable true.  So what / who was it that made them ALL think they were Alexandra and her  daughters?

AGRBear


Perhaps they were put up to it by the Bolshevik party.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Olga on April 21, 2005, 11:38:25 PM
Quote
So tell me: Why don't you believe them?


Because it would be extremely hard to identify five women be candlelight, in a fleeting glimpse. On top of that, this woman had never met the five before and  probably didn't know what they looked like, to a point of accuracy.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Alice on April 22, 2005, 03:05:50 AM
Quote
I have a feeling that people who probably only ever saw the glamourous formal photos of the Imperial Family would be extremely poorly placed to judge what the Empress and her daughters would look like after a couple of years imprisonment, and in poor lighting. They'd have been wrecks, and mere shadows of their former selves.


Also, I have read that Alexandra aged considerably during the family's imprisonment. The girls were growing and they were also re-growing their hair after having their heads shaved because of illness.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 22, 2005, 09:41:03 AM
Someone else will have to answer Alice's question about the hair.  I've forgotten what the majority believe the length of their hair might have been.  But I think it had grown down passed their ears.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on April 22, 2005, 12:03:46 PM
agrb,
  Just which theory do you agree with -- the Perm survivors? The AA type "secret survivor" of the execution? (HERR XXX?)
Also,  who or what did you mean by "they ALL believed" ? ?  
 Massie's last book " The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" discussed all the rumours 'east and west' 'red and white' so you might want to look therefor more information.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on April 22, 2005, 12:24:23 PM
Quote

...[in part]... 
  Massie's last book " The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" discussed all the rumours 'east and west' 'red and white' so you might want to look therefor more information.


It's been awhile since I looked at their book.  I will.  Thank you.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on June 12, 2005, 12:12:51 AM
How far is Perm from the Koptyaki Forest?
How far was Koptyaki Forest from the Impt. house? And how far was the Im. House from Perm?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on June 12, 2005, 12:34:07 PM
I've taken this question over to this thread which is about the Perm Story:

Quote
Bear, I have some questions.
1. How and by whom wawa it discovered that these testimonies used in Summers and Mangold were purposely eliminated from Sokolov's book?

2. Who was the  investigators who wrote in his report that he thought the scene of execution was staged in the Ipatiev House. Is it accessible? Where can I read it?

Looks like I need to get busy reading to participate in this discussion. Thanks for your help.


Summers and Mangold found the original Sokolov Dossiers in the Hoover Institution in California.  There were letters between Professor Mirolyubov, Pulbic Prosecutor of Kazan Assizes, and his collegue, Prosecutor Jordansky.   See Mangold and Summers TH FILE ON THE TSAR p. 322.

Summers and Mangold, also, discovered the White General Gaida [find more information on him in the Russian Revolution section on Whites and Reds section] was the first to enter Ekaterinburg.  Gaida launched his own investigation ....These findings were not given to Judge Sergeyev.

p. 323:
"The investigators who worked for General Gaida were members of the Ugolovny Rozsk --Criminal Investigating Division (CID).  Of all the investigators, they were probably best placed to operate in a war situation.   Many CID men were civilians, drawn from the network of agents who had operated for the old tsarist Ministry of Interior....In the first few months of 1919, there investigation uncovered evidence and testimony that points inexorably to the fact that the surviving Romanov women were taken, alive, to Perm."

p. 332-3:
Kirsta was part of Gaida's investigation:
"In the spring of 1919 Kirsta's investigators, puzzling over the accumulated testimony, found repeated references to a strange new element--the story of the escape of one of the Romanov daughters.  The imperial fugitive seems to have been the Grand Ducness Anastasia."

No one is sure why the various testimonies about the Perm story is not found in his book.  We can only guess.  (1) He didn't think the Perm stories were worth mentioning; (2) He'd been told not to mention the possibility of escape or that members of the royal family may have been alive after 16 July; (3) The publisher may have told him to make cuts to keep the lenght at a certain point; (4) Actually, Sokolov had died before the book was published and Prince Orlov then held control and he may have eliminated some parts....



AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on June 12, 2005, 01:09:16 PM
The White Army takes Ekaterinburg and in 1918 and one of  the first investigators  Capt. Malinovsky concluded :  "As  the results of my work on this case I became convinced that the imperial family was alive.  It appeared to me that the Bolsheviks had shot someone in the room in order to simulate the murder of the imperial family, had taken them away in the night along the Koptyaki road, also, with the purpose of simulating a murder....  That is how I thought, and it also seemed to me that everything I had observed during the investigation was a simulation of murder."
 
This was written by a man who was actually there.  And,  he never changed his mind about what he saw.

Source p. 69 THE FILE ON THE TSAR by Mangold and Summers.


You can also find information in the Havard collection.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on June 12, 2005, 03:28:05 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/5X7.jpg)

I've placed this map on the White and Red Army thread and thought I'd bring it over here so you can see for yourself the distant between Ekaterinburg and Perm.

Perm was the stronghold where many of the Red Army generals, officers, supporters  went after Ekaterinburg was lost.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 12, 2005, 07:27:38 PM
Congratulations, Bear! Your post are always plenty of useful information, and -over all things - critical analyze. This is historical, and not keep saying, and saying: DNA...DNA...DNA. You are trying to discover things BEYOND DNA, and it's fine, for people today is too much used to accept things that they watch in TV shows, or read in papers, and magazines. I knew about cases of manipulated DNA, and not only in my country. I add this for someone here said very disdainfull to me, that "This could happen in Argentina, but not in America", as I live in an awful not-developped country. You must know that Argentina is very developped country in matters of science and knowledge. Or Universities are great, and our scientifics are called by other countries as EEUU, France, England, Spain, etc. Search in the net and you'll see...But science is not our God. We are raised in ours schools  , to analyze things and criticize facts.

  All this to said: no; I'm not convinced by the DNA results, for even if AA could have not been ( I think she was) AN, it's very hard to me to believe she was FS. How could a DNA match with the family of a woman who didn't ressemble in features to the Polish factory worker that some people said she was? How could a DNA match with the relatives of someone much taller and big in body features than AA? You must grew taller, and get fat, but if your bones are big, they remain big, I assure you...And finally...How could AA DNA match with the family member of a dissapeared woman whose story was manipulate by the Duc of Hesse himself? Knopf accepted the whole thing some years after the "FS case" was known all over the world. He openly said he was payed to made up the "FS case"...So...Or Knopf was lying or the whole DNA matter must be earnestly contested.

  I repeat: I respect science, but I doubt (and a LOT) about the scientist. They are human beings, and they may make mistakes, or even make up a result. Is not the first time in history they do it, and it would be like this in the future. Nazis have the German scientist under their rule, and we are not supposed to believe that Nazis scientifics told us (They made up the weirdest biological , genethical and racist theories you could imagine). And even if you'll shout with anger toward me, scientist are not at all neutral nowadays.

  So, Bear, you are a genius. You keep trying to know the truth (and better than me, for I'm pretty convinced that AA was she claimed to be  ;D and this could deny me to see real things with a more objetive eye), and not giving up, even if all people said over and over: the case is closed, we know already what happened.

  Congratulations again!

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on June 12, 2005, 08:50:17 PM
A total of 12 different scientists, working in four different laboratories on the SAME samples each came up with the SAME results. AA was NOT AN... that much even dear old Bear does not dispute anymore. No one argues that point anymore, at least those who understand the basic science and have read the actual test results for themselves.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 12, 2005, 09:05:36 PM
Old Bear will continue to research as me will do. And actually many people I know argues about this issue. I imagine you'll read all threads about "survivors", "claimants", "Final Chapters" etc. I'm not the only one who "argues" and "doubts".   Many serious people does...Sorry; I'm not a rude person and I don't mean to be so. If I'm rude or stupid, or anything, you may always close the thread...

Keep in mind I'm not a anti-science or a AA fanatic. It's only that I still have question about this issue , and until I can't anwer all of them, I'll keep wondering about them. Sorry again.  :-[
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on June 12, 2005, 09:10:45 PM
I didn't think this thread was about AA/AN. I thought it was about the stories from Perm.   ??? ???
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Georgiy on June 13, 2005, 04:51:10 PM
Yes, but AA has an uncanny knack of working her way into almost every thread on the survivors section ;)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on June 13, 2005, 07:16:44 PM
Quote
Yes, but AA has an uncanny knack of working her way into almost every thread on the survivors section ;)

So it seems
;)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on June 13, 2005, 08:42:46 PM
In Marc Ferro's Nicholas II, the last of the tsars pps.  258-9,  he tells us a little more about Malinovsky's report:

"...a number of persons had been shot in the Ipatiev house in order to simulate the execution of the imperial family, that the family had been taken along Koptyaki road and there undressed, and their clothing burnt, after which they were given peasant clothing and taken to some other place. 'These were my impressions as a result of my obersations and considered thought,' he wrote.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 13, 2005, 08:49:02 PM
Hi, Bear!:

                 I would like to know more about Marc Ferro's book. I saw it some years ago, but when I started to read it, I thought it was a complete rambling and I didn't bought it...What do you think about it? I remember that Ferro wrote about a "Maria" pretender who went to a trial and spoke about her sisters being alive, but perhaps I'm wrong. Was this Maria one of Michael Goleniewsky's "sisters".  ???

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on June 13, 2005, 08:52:14 PM
Ferro's book p. 259:

"...the first magistrate, Sergeyev, who was enrusted with the investigation by the public prosecutor, was removed ..by General Dietertichs, .... "

Sergeyev was interviewed by Herman Bernstein of the NEW YORK TRIBUNE and the article appeared 5 Sept 1920:

"I do not believe that all the ... people, the Tsar, his family and those with them were shot there.  It is my belief that the Empress, the Tsarevich and the Grand Duchesses were not shot in that house.  I believe, however, the the Tsar, Professor Botkin, the family physicians, two lackeys and the maid, Demidova, were shot in the Ipatiev House."

Sergeyev was shot and killed 23 Jan 1919.

I think when looking at the skeletons in the mass grave, that the people Sergeyev mentions are the ones found under the bones of Alexandra and the Grand Duchesses.  

I'll need to color the bones in my sketch.

I think Penny had told us once the order but I don't recall where or if it is still in any thread after she had eliminated so many of her posts that one time.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on June 13, 2005, 11:55:31 PM
Quote
Ferro's book p. 259:

"...the first magistrate, Sergeyev, who was enrusted with the investigation by the public prosecutor, was removed ..by General Dietertichs, .... "

Sergeyev was interviewed by Herman Bernstein of the NEW YORK TRIBUNE and the article appeared 5 Sept 1920:

"I do not believe that all the ... people, the Tsar, his family and those with them were shot there.  It is my belief that the Empress, the Tsarevich and the Grand Duchesses were not shot in that house.  I believe, however, the the Tsar, Professor Botkin, the family physicians, two lackeys and the maid, Demidova, were shot in the Ipatiev House."

Sergeyev was shot and killed 23 Jan 1919.

I think when looking at the skeletons in the mass grave, that the people Sergeyev mentions are the ones found under the bones of Alexandra and the Grand Duchesses.  

I'll need to color the bones in my sketch.

I think Penny had told us once the order but I don't recall where or if it is still in any thread after she had eliminated so many of her posts that one time.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Abby on June 14, 2005, 09:24:53 AM
Quote
Hi, Bear!:

                  I would like to know more about Marc Ferro's book. I saw it some years ago, but when I started to read it, I thought it was a complete rambling and I didn't bought it...What do you think about it? I remember that Ferro wrote about a "Maria" pretender who went to a trial and spoke about her sisters being alive, but perhaps I'm wrong. Was this Maria one of Michael Goleniewsky's "sisters".  ???

RealAnastasia.



Goleniewsky met with Eugenia Smith, the Chicago Anastasia claimant, and they supported and recongized each other at their 'reunion' but then later denounced one another's credibility.  I don't recall hearing about this Maria claimant, (the Granny Alina is about the only one that sticks in my head) but maybe he did write about it. I used to have his book, and while it gets negative criticism by reviewers, I didn't find anything horribly bad about it, but it wasn't exceptional in its content, either. I think it just restated much of the material which I already knew, and managed to mis-label a few people in the photo section  ;)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on June 14, 2005, 11:26:39 AM
I have never read the book of Ferro's from cover to cover and so I am guilty of not being able to comment on his style.  I do, however, use the indexes of these kind of books that do seem to be repeats of other books, therefore, I just use his for ref. to find additional information...

I did copy the GD Marie claimant's photo and placed it over under the thread of "claimant lists".  Reply #72:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=loonies;action=display;num=1097613572;start=50#50




AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 14, 2005, 03:29:13 PM
Thank you, Bear: I enjoyed the photo, for I didn't know it. The only Maria pretender I know by photo is "Granny Alina". Besides, the Mar Ferro book I saw was a cheap edition without any photo in it.  :-[

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on June 15, 2005, 01:01:34 PM
I suppose we should be talking about claimants over in the section provided.

So, back to the stories about Perm on this thread.

While looking around for more information on Malinovksy,  I found in Wilson and King's book p. 348 the following:

"To assist Nametkin, Kutuzov appointed Captain Dimitri Malinovsky, the White Army officer who had previously been involved with Dr. Derevenko in attempting to orgnaize a rescue attempt."

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on June 15, 2005, 01:08:17 PM
AGRBear,

You were going to show us something about the placement of the skeletons in the grave.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on June 15, 2005, 01:15:30 PM
I was hoping to find Penny's post then work from there and colorize the skeletons so we could discover which body was placed first then second....

And, you are right,  I have not accomplished this task, yet.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on June 15, 2005, 05:44:54 PM
Besides the absolute codswaddle absurdity of the White Officer's statements(he must have needed some R and R)...how did the bones of various IF relations end up buried nearby...?...An unfortunate group of  Romanovs just happened to wander by....wrong place....wrong time....?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on June 15, 2005, 08:05:19 PM
Quote
Besides the absolute codswaddle absurdity of the White Officer's statements(he must have needed some R and R)...how did the bones of various IF relations end up buried nearby...?...An unfortunate group of  Romanovs just happened to wander by....wrong place....wrong time....?


Off topic I know, but I find the word "codswaddle" so interesting. It's sounds so British. Don't hear it up here in the northeast.

Is it anything like "Codswallop"?

See below.............

I see You do never stop. Heino Tammet’s native-born name was Ernst Wiermann. He was Estonian guy, who wont to be better than he was. Before II World ware he ganged he’s name to Heino Tammet. He was my grandfathers youngest brother and NO RUSSIAN, NO TSAREVITSH, NO ROMANOV.  
Please stop this codswallop.
 



Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 15, 2005, 08:31:58 PM
Hi, Inquiring_mind! I'm so surprised for the things you said about Mr. Tammet! Are you sure that you are not the same guy who posted a similar message, only under a different name?  ::)

RealAnastasia.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tasha_R on June 15, 2005, 09:09:43 PM
I believe Inquiring Mind is actually trying to quote the very note you mentioned.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on June 16, 2005, 10:23:57 AM
Quote
Besides the absolute codswaddle absurdity of the White Officer's statements(he must have needed some R and R)...how did the bones of various IF relations end up buried nearby...?...An unfortunate group of  Romanovs just happened to wander by....wrong place....wrong time....?


The reports were about the execution site in the basement of the Ipatiev House.  

The entire family or just Alexandera and the G Duchess, according to the many Perm reports,  might well have been spirited away on the night of 16 July 1918.

Since their bodies, with the acception of two, have been found in a mass grave, this means they were executed.

What we don't know is when they were executed and placed in this mass grave.  I assume between 17 July 1918 and 1920.

If you believe what Yurovsky testified then all he bodies should be found where he said they were, including the two bodies which are presently missing.

Because the two bodies are missing then everything Yurovsky said can not be taken as the truth.

Where do we draw the line between the truth and the lies?

We can't untill we've seen all the evidence.

Sokolov eliminated some of the evidence from his reports/book.  Why?  I've given those reasons and will, again:
(1) He didn't agree with the reports
(2) He was told by his superiors to place most of the weight on  the evidence which provided the scenario of the execution in the bsement because the Whites wanted to use their deaths to prove what kind of monsters the Reds were.
(3)  His publisher told him he had to cut down on the size of his book
(4)  After his death,  Prince Orlov who was in charge of the Sokolov book which was not yet published, and took it upon himself to eliminate the testimonies which he thought were "red herrings".....

AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 16, 2005, 09:03:37 PM
Quote

The reports were about the execution site in the basement of the Ipatiev House.  

The entire family or just Alexandera and the G Duchess, according to the many Perm reports,  might well have been spirited away on the night of 16 July 1918.

Since their bodies, with the acception of two, have been found in a mass grave, this means they were executed.

What we don't know is when they were executed and placed in this mass grave.  I assume between 17 July 1918 and 1920.

If you believe what Yurovsky testified then all he bodies should be found where he said they were, including the two bodies which are presently missing.

Because the two bodies are missing then everything Yurovsky said can not be taken as the truth.

Where do we draw the line between the truth and the lies?

We can't untill we've seen all the evidence.

Sokolov eliminated some of the evidence from his reports/book.  Why?  I've given those reasons and will, again:
(1) He didn't agree with the reports
(2) He was told by his superiors to place most of the weight on  the evidence which provided the scenario of the execution in the bsement because the Whites wanted to use their deaths to prove what kind of monsters the Reds were.
(3)  His publisher told him he had to cut down on the size of his book
(4)  After his death,  Prince Orlov who was in charge of the Sokolov book which was not yet published, and took it upon himself to eliminate the testimonies which he thought were "red herrings".....

AGRBear



Well, Bear you always saids thinks better than myself. It's just for all the info you quoted that I would keep searching WHAT happened this 16-17 July 1918. I doubt about Yurovsky's reports, and (yes, yes...shame on me, poor conspirative mind!  ;) ) I also doubt about Sokolov one . And I 'll try to find the truth...If possible in a single human being life.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on June 16, 2005, 11:30:28 PM
I've read just about every book that exists on the topic of the  Romanovs, including "The File on the Tzar".  
In my opinion (which is worth EXACTLY as much as the paper this isn't written on!) it isn't that they invented facts at all.  It's the CONCLUSIONS they drew that are now proving to be false.
You can give different groups of people the same set of facts.  Some groups will put them together and draw "National Enquirer" type conclusions.  Some will come up with nothing conclusive.  Others will come up with more questions and ask for more facts.  Still others will come up with theories that sound reasonable.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on June 27, 2005, 11:53:51 AM
I find it interesting that the investigator Alexander Kirsta, Chief of the military in Siberia, used the magazine Neva published in 1913 and 1915 which had photographs of the IF [imperial family] to show the eye witnesses he and his men found in Perm to see if they could indentify the young woman they saw as GD Anastasia.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 27, 2005, 07:18:05 PM
Quote
I've read just about every book that exists on the topic of the  Romanovs, including "The File on the Tzar".  
In my opinion (which is worth EXACTLY as much as the paper this isn't written on!) it isn't that they invented facts at all.  It's the CONCLUSIONS they drew that are now proving to be false.
You can give different groups of people the same set of facts.  Some groups will put them together and draw "National Enquirer" type conclusions.  Some will come up with nothing conclusive.  Others will come up with more questions and ask for more facts.  Still others will come up with theories that sound reasonable.


You said a very intelligent thing, Finelly. And perhaps is exactly for this that we are still discussing those topics in Forums like this one. We have all the same amount of information, we know the same facts and we come to different conclusions.
Now, we know WHY we must keep discussing facts .

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on June 27, 2005, 08:06:43 PM
Quote
I find it interesting that the investigator Alexander Kirsta, Chief of the military in Siberia, used the magazine Neva published in 1913 and 1915 which had photographs of the IF [imperial family] to show the eye witnesses he and his men found in Perm to see if they could indentify the young woman they saw as GD Anastasia.

AGRBear


Thanks for mentioning a particular publication and date. I am constantly looking for "old paper". I have a wide circle of dealers but you have to know what to ask them to find.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on June 28, 2005, 11:18:44 AM
Are you collecting stories on the Romanovs and if you are what kind of collection do you have?  Any old photographs you'd care to share someday with us here or  in a book?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on June 28, 2005, 11:47:59 AM
Quote
Are you collecting stories on the Romanovs and if you are what kind of collection do you have?  Any old photographs you'd care to share someday with us here or  in a book?

AGRBear


My interest in paper collectables stems from being married for nearly 32 years to a man who collects first edition books, vintage paperbacks and magazines for their artwork or photos, baseball cards etc....etc

Since we can never go anywhere in the world without including a visit to what is usually a musty cluttered shop ;D , I sometimes find my own treasures.

My interest in the IF is relatively new so I don't have much yet of real interest. My husband and I have been putting out feelers and found a retired school teacher with a sizable personal collection. We are looking into it but it is merely my personal interest.  No book deal here. :-* It's just a way we "invest" our disposible income.


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on June 28, 2005, 07:41:17 PM
Good luck on your hobbies.  Let us know if you find a Romanov gem in your search.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on June 28, 2005, 07:51:01 PM
Quote
We know the grave has been opened more than once before 1979.  Just as we know some of the bones and skulls were removed then returned in a box after the opening in 1979.

AGRBear

I have seen this comment posted on various threads and wondered where I could go to learn more about it? Thanks
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on June 28, 2005, 07:52:08 PM
Quote
Good luck on your hobbies.  Let us know if you find a Romanov gem in your search.

AGRBear


This board will be the first to know. I will willingly share any info I feel may be of interest. What you share comes back ten times.

My computer tech son is teaching me how to go digital. He is bringing me into the 21st century. I actually learned to take a picture with a phone and post it on the net today.

And they say you can't teach an old girl ....


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on June 28, 2005, 07:59:33 PM
Quote

My interest in paper collectables stems from being married for nearly 32 years to a man who collects first edition books, vintage paperbacks and magazines for their artwork or photos, baseball cards etc....etc

Since we can never go anywhere in the world without including a visit to what is usually a musty cluttered shop ;D , I sometimes find my own treasures.

My interest in the IF is relatively new so I don't have much yet of real interest. My husband and I have been putting out feelers and found a retired school teacher with a sizable personal collection. We are looking into it but it is merely my personal interest.  No book deal here. :-* It's just a way we "invest" our disposible income.



Inquiring_Mind,
My husband also collects first edition books etc and has for many years. As a result, I have been looking for first editions of some of the book mentioned on this thread. They aren't as difficult to find I a thought they would be. What are you looking for?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on June 28, 2005, 08:23:00 PM
Quote
Inquiring_Mind,
My husband also collects first edition books etc and has for many years. As a result, I have been looking for first editions of some of the book mentioned on this thread. They aren't as difficult to find I a thought they would be. What are you looking for?


Not for first editions....I can get the same info from a used copy someone read in the bathtub.

I am looking for the rare and unusual. I am looking for a magazine or newspaper from the time of the captivity to about the 1930's after the execution. I am looking for letters . I would also be interested in any postcards,etc.

I want to see what people were putting in print.

You know how similar Nicholas was to his infamous English cousin?

Well, I thought I had a real find the other day.
I found a shop that had a plate (very faded) from a coronation....it looked like Nick until I got on my hands and knees and discovered  it was the cousin!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on June 28, 2005, 08:31:44 PM
But we have gotten totally off the Perm story.

AA made mention of this whole affair but it is now discounted as a fake?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 28, 2005, 09:11:00 PM
Quote
Are you collecting stories on the Romanovs and if you are what kind of collection do you have?  Any old photographs you'd care to share someday with us here or  in a book?

AGRBear


Hi, Bear:

               I'm a BIG collector of vintage papers and magazines, and some of them have very good insights about Romanovs. But there are Argentinian publications, and, of course, they are in Spanish. If you want , I may send you some scans of them to you to see, for there are some good pics (unfortunaltely, little ones  :-/) in them. I have one review where they show the travel of Nicholas and Alexandra to France, some good ones about Russian-Japanese war , the new about Anastasia's christening, the celebrating of Alexei 4th birthay and other little things, including the 1905 Revolution. I also have a 1920's decade review where they speaks about Anna Anderson travelling to the USA. But the amazing thing is that they shows a photo of the real Anastasia above the article, and in it they always call Anna "GD Anastasia" escaped from the massacre who killed her whole family". In fact, they didn't call her Anna Anderson, I know it's her for she was the only claimant who travelled in the "Berengaria" to the States to live in Xenia Leeds house! For the journalist who wrote the article it was clear that this woman was indeed Anastasia. Only in the end of the article, he wrote: "Some of the Romanovs relatives of Anastasia in Europe doesn't believe that she is really who she claims to be".

I also have a Spanish Paper were a journalist depicted Romanov's death, and he claims that only the Tzar and the Tsarevich were killed in Ipatiev's cellar...Of course, the girls and the Tzaritsa were bring to Perm...

If you wants I may send all this to your private mail, to you to scan here for all Palace Members to see. I haven't a photobucket account, so I'm not able to post things here...If you may do it for me, I'll be grateful.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 11, 2005, 06:52:59 PM
I'm starting this new thread in the hopes that people who enjoy discussing various theories and presenting information will participate in an objective, non-hostile way.

My only requirement is that people remain courteous and refrain from personal attacks, baiting, and other disruptive posting.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 11, 2005, 06:56:45 PM
Penny Wilson recently posted on another thread about the chimera theory.  It was the first time I'd seen a detailed description of this theory.  This could be one topic for discussion on this thread.

I'd also be interested in learning about any other survivor theories that exist.  I recently re-read the File on the Tsar, which I know is outdated and much disproven, but I'd be interested in some specific refutations of some of their "points" and also whether anything they discovered in their research has been proven to be correct.

I do NOT think this needs to be a forum to discuss whether AA is FS, AN or anyone else, or to prove one way or another who was who and whether anyone survived.  Just a discussion of the theories and evidence is interesting enough.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on July 12, 2005, 02:49:08 PM
In all honesty I can only think of the theory presented by a gentleman from Poland who's name I always massacre... Gorlenuezki (ack) ?  He claimed to be Alexie, and that Yurofski rather than execute them  helped the whole family escape to western Poland...
Alixandra died shortly thereafter, Anastasia went abroad to get funds, and  never returned. :-X The rest of the family he claimed to be in contact with for some time.

Supposedly Nicholas later worked with the Polish resistance  forces during WWII!

rs
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on July 12, 2005, 03:56:15 PM
Quote
In all honesty I can only think of the theory presented by a gentleman from Poland who's name I always massacre... Gorlenuezki (ack) ?  He claimed to be Alexie, and that Yurofski rather than execute them  helped the whole family escape to western Poland...
Alixandra died shortly thereafter, Anastasia went abroad to get funds, and  never returned. :-X The rest of the family he claimed to be in contact with for some time.

Supposedly Nicholas later worked with the Polish resistance  forces during WWII!

rs


This is all soooo amazing...I wish I wanted to believe every piece of information that came down the road..."but you can't PROOVE it's wrong"...and I refrain from mentioning that it's nearly impossible to prove a negative..."Prove that Santa Claus doesn't exist...."....erm....I'll pass.....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 12, 2005, 04:25:22 PM
I don't know about PROVING anything.  I just like collecting evidence and looking at it......

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tasha_R on July 12, 2005, 08:50:33 PM
I understand that there are a number of theories.  Unfortunately, I haven't really read any of them yet... I was coming to this thread to do so  :-/

One, I believe, has to do with Perm.  One is about a Grand Duchess being thrown into a plane (although that may be one and the same; like I said, I haven't read them yet).  One has to do with a battleship coming to rescue the family.  One is about some villagers taking their places and some of the Grand Duchesses escaping while going to church.  At least, these are the snippets I've picked up in perusing the various board threads.

It would be nice to have them all in one place to look at and compare.

By the way, what do you mean about Santa Claus?  Last I knew, he still came down my chimney for Christmas.  At least I know *I* was a very good girl  ;D

Best,
Tasha
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 12, 2005, 09:21:32 PM
Quote

This is all soooo amazing...I wish I wanted to believe every piece of information that came down the road..."but you can't PROOVE it's wrong"...and I refrain from mentioning that it's nearly impossible to prove a negative..."Prove that Santa Claus doesn't exist...."....erm....I'll pass.....



Etonexile...I'm becoming increasingly angry at you...Stop this stupidity. Don't laugh at us. If you think that all of them died, fine. We didn't think you are a bad guy or something like this. You may think exactly what you wants to think. BUT DON'T OBLIGE US TO THINK THE SAME WAY THAN YOU. STOP IT. You coudln't refrain yourself isn't it? If you don't believe that Anastasia, Alexei, Tatiana or anyone else survived, don't write in this thread. Right? I don't write in threads I don't care about... >:(
We'll keep discussing this issue, even if you don't want it. Believe what you wanted to believe, but let us to do the same! Pleaseeee!!!

I don't want to argue with you, etonexile...Indeed! You force me to do it.  :-/

RealAnastasia.

P.S: Oh! Shame on me! I don't believe in Santa Claus. But I believe in God! What a bad Bolshevik I am! And no...Modern world is not for me. I'm a lady of "darker ages" who still believe in family, God, friendship values and such foolishnes out of fashion.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 12, 2005, 10:30:01 PM
Etonexile,
I took no offense to your post and appreciate your sense of humor.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 13, 2005, 12:12:29 AM
If someone has a personal gripe with another poster, please take it to pms.

And if someone is snotty to you, be an adult and ignore it or address it in pms.

This is a place to discuss like mature, intelligent adults the various theories and evidence out there about the Romanovs.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 13, 2005, 08:23:03 AM
Quote
Penny Wilson recently posted on another thread about the chimera theory.  It was the first time I'd seen a detailed description of this theory.  This could be one topic for discussion on this thread.


Finelly,

I can understand why the chimera theory may sound like an interesting idea to you. It is a wild concept, especially because this is real, and it would of course make the AA story even more interesting if this were really the case. Unfortunately, there isn't any way anyone can make the chimera theory fit into the AA situation, or any other claimant's for that matter, no matter how hard they try.

The way Penny Wilson explained the chimera concept on the other thread is very deceptive, because she tried to make it fit into her own theories. If she truly thinks that this theory can be used as an explanation for AA's  contradicting mtDNA results, then this means that she does not even come close to understanding the concept of a chimera. I believe that PW's goal is to to try to prove that AA was not FS by showing that the science may be wrong, therefore she tends to present the evidence in a very calculated way. To those who are not familiar with what she is talking about, it sounds very convincing. However, it is extremely misleading.

Let me now explain why I say that the chimera theory is completely invalid, not to mention kind of silly... I am going to try to make the explanation as simple as I can.

When chimeras are formed, what happens is that two fraternal twin zygotes fuse before they had the chance to develop into an embryo or a fetus. In the end, only one child is born where there were supposed to be two, and there is no evidence of the other child because it has been "swallowed up" - incorporated, by the other. But this child has the DNA of both siblings in different parts of his or her body. This is why some of the organs may have different nuclear DNA sequences, but there are only two different sequences - one from each sibling, not any more than that.

The key here is that we are talking about nuclear DNA, not mtDNA. Since the twins are siblings from the same mother, their mtDNA is still identical. And, since the twins are siblings, their nuclear DNA will still be sibling DNA. This means that if paternity tests are done, both sequences will show to have the same parents.

Now, lets look at Penny Wilson's theory that the reason AA may have had two different DNA sequences is because she was a chimera. First, the two sequences in question (the intestine and the blood slide) are mtDNA. Which means of course that even if, in the extremely unlikely event, AA was a chimera, the two mtDNA sequences should still be identical. Another issue is this: how do we explain the fact that one of the sequences matched Carl Maucher's and Margaret Ellerick's (the child and grandchild of Gertrude Scankowska)? This cannot be explained by AA being a chimera, no matter how you slice it.

Penny Wilson's theory also seems to subtly target AA's  nuclear DNA results, from the tests which were performed on the same intestine sample, when her sequence was compared to that of Nicholas and Alexandra, and when it was shown that AA could not have been the child of the latter two.

Suppose AA was in fact a chimera. Her two different DNA sequences would be hers and her fraternal twin's, who fused with her at early embryonic stage. But both of her DNA sequences would still be those of siblings, i.e. both children of the same parents. So, if AA was Anastasia, even is she were a chimera, both her nuclear DNA sequences, although different from each other, would show up as the child of Nicholas and Alexandra. So even if she were a chimera, AA could not have been the child of N & A.

So what is the point of the chimera theory and why was it presented? I am not sure, as there doesn't seem to be any point. Perhaps it is a "red herring" designed to put doubt into people's minds about who AA was or who she wasn't....

I know this is not supposed to be another AA thread, but you asked about the chimera theory, which was presented for AA, so she had to be referred to.

______________________________________

I do have a couple of AA survivor theories of my own, if we are going to try to make a case against the DNA results and try to explain them away.  

Theory #1

Being desperate for a son and not being able to conceive, Alexandra was artificially inplanted with a zygote of unknown origin. Anastasia was born, and she was N & A's daughter, but she was the biological child of Gertrude Schankowska's mother... And we came to know her as Anna Anderson.  

Theory #2 (would only work with paternity tests)

AA was really Anastasia and the true biological child of Nicholas and Alexandra. But both N & A were chimeras and this is why when AA was tested she was shown not to be their biological child.  

I personally like the second one, the only problem with it is that if mtDNA tests are performed, the results would send this theory packing too. So in order to stick to this theory we would have  to prevent mtDNA tests at all costs   :o 8).
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 13, 2005, 09:07:32 AM
Regardless of anyone's uninformed opinion of my intentions or "agenda," and regardless of any uninformed conclusion of my "deception," I am just researching, like everyone else.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 13, 2005, 09:09:40 AM
Thanks for the explanation, Helen.  My one main problem with the chimera theory is that it cannot be coincidence that one of the two dnas matches the FS family.....

I can't speak for Penny, but I don't think it is her working theory.  It is one that she has explored, but let's not exaggerate its place on the list of possible solutions to the mystery of AA.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 13, 2005, 09:16:37 AM
Quote

I can't speak for Penny, but I don't think it is her working theory.  It is one that she has explored...



Bingo.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on July 13, 2005, 09:50:15 AM
Quote
Thanks for the explanation, Helen.  My one main problem with the chimera theory is that it cannot be coincidence that one of the two dnas matches the FS family.....

I can't speak for Penny, but I don't think it is her working theory.  It is one that she has explored, but let's not exaggerate its place on the list of possible solutions to the mystery of AA.




Well said Finelly, and it is a point that we have been trying to make for quite sometime.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 13, 2005, 10:14:39 AM
Quote
I can't speak for Penny, but I don't think it is her working theory.  It is one that she has explored, but let's not exaggerate its place on the list of possible solutions to the mystery of AA.


In which case, why not try to come up with plausible theories, and not ones that are completely off base?

The two I offered above are a lot more plausible than most of the ones that have been presented and you guys should really consider them.  At least they can explain the DNA results, unlike any of the ones we have so far.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 13, 2005, 11:13:15 AM
Having  old posts dug up and then having to explain those old posts is difficult and sometimes needs clearification  because it was within a thread locked down due to so much passion.

That cleared, let's get back to "survivor theories".

As long as the two bodies  Alexei and Anastasia/Marie are missing, I think it's possible that both escaped at  some time.

As most people know,  I'm not sure Nicholas II and the others were killed that night.  I lean toward an escape on the 16th/ 17th of July since this was the date earlier voiced by the Germans who were setting up a rescue.  

To cover up the escape that night,  Yurovsky and Ermakov may have shot five "Letts" and these were the bodies taken to the Four Brother's Mine....  These bodies were discovered by the early intestigators and this was eliminated from Sokolov's report but later discovered.

Since it appears that the soil over and around the mass grave show the grave to have exist by 1918 to 1922 ish,  there is a time frame in which the nine known dead were found, executed and buried....

Some of the victims  may have been reburied in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.  Why would I think this?  There was an unusual number of missing bones and this fact can not be explained away by the bog or the acid but can be if the bodies were buried elsewhere, dug up and placed in the mass grave.

Remember, the Whites had control of the area for about a year so a group of Reds coming into the area to bury anyone might prove more than a little difficult.

Why would the Reds bother  to place the bodies in the mass grave?  Would it not have best to have the bodies  in other places?  Remember, the CHEKA had a story and they had to stick to one story or else the house of cards would have fallen.

All of the people involved in the possible "cover-up" were scattered a few days after the 17th of July and some were soon prisioners of the Whites....

Certainly,  the Bolsheviks would not report that the royal family had escaped and it certainly would not admit that they executed them without fear of the White Army whom they blamed in their original reason for execution.

I've set up threads that talk about testimonies to naming the  shooters as well as questions about the mass grave....

Through the years the CHEKA, the Ural Soviets, the Moscow Soviets followed by the communists and KGB have made every effort to cover up the truth of what happened.    And, their best weapon has been time, their ability of spreading the stories they want the public to believe and Stalin's purges murdered just about everyone who would have known the truth.

It is a good thing we, now, have DNA tests so we can eliminate or prove a claimant is not or is a desc. of Nicholas II and Alexandra.

AGRBear

 
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on July 13, 2005, 11:24:39 AM
Sorry to all who I might have given offence...I've been British too long for my own good... ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on July 13, 2005, 11:34:48 AM
No offence taken Etonexile  
I do not understand what so bothers Ms. Real Anastasia - I have very strong doubts that she is in fact the Real Anastasia... ;) ;) ;)
However the polish genleman spy mentioned earlier  never seemed to suffer from 'Haemophilia' so thats a give away...Hm?


elfwine
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on July 13, 2005, 11:37:47 AM
Quote
No offence taken Etonexile  
I do not understand what so bothers Ms. Real Anastasia - I have very strong doubts that she is in fact the Real Anastasia... ;) ;) ;)
However the polish genleman spy mentioned earlier  never seemed to suffer from 'Haemophilia' so thats a give away...Hm?


elfwine


Oh...don't let a thing like a lack of haemophilia stand in your way as a claimant.... ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on July 13, 2005, 11:38:13 AM
Quote

 Oh! Shame on me! I don't believe in Santa Claus. But I believe in God! What a bad Bolshevik I am! And no...Modern world is not for me. I'm a lady of "darker ages" who still believe in family, God, friendship values and such foolishnes out of fashion.


This is a silly and irrelevent comment. Should you wish to discuss your religion, madam,  I should guess that there's a thread for that.


elf
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on July 13, 2005, 12:33:53 PM
Quote

In which case, why not try to come up with plausible theories, and not ones that are completely off base?

The two I offered above are a lot more plausible than most of the ones that have been presented and you guys should really consider them.  At least they can explain the DNA results, unlike any of the ones we have so far.


You know Helen this has what has bothered me from the start, IF we want to research along lines other than DNA results then we are somewhere "out there" we have no other desire than to have ALL of the other evidence looked at and all solutions checked, researched, and it doesn't mean because a chimera is or was discussed that it means Penny, Bear, myself or others believe that is the only solution, and from the beginning many have us said these are theories, ideas, or thoughts from the subjective evidence presented in this case.  ALL of these facts need to be looked into, and invesitgated it for history's sake while we have authors who are capable and interested in doing it.
I don't think there is an agenda on anyone's part here, just trying to look at the WHOLE puzzle not just the DNA side of it.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on July 13, 2005, 12:45:49 PM
Is anyone familiar with the claims of a woman from Ohio...I have forgotten her name... was it Eugenia Smith?  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 13, 2005, 01:08:01 PM
Ok, here I a come all confused again/still.
Is this topic supposed to be about specfic survivor theories??? Like who claimed to be a survivor.
Bear, I understand where you are coming from with the idea of escape. I struggle with that too. Here is what I can't set aside. Yes there are many, many bones missing. But the DNA accounted for all but two of the IF. So how did all those accounted for end up in one grave? It would seem if they did escape, they did not survive long.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 13, 2005, 01:10:26 PM
Quote
Sorry to all who I might have given offence...I've been British too long for my own good... ::)

No offense taken by me. I enjoy your sense of humor.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 13, 2005, 01:10:34 PM
For those of us who often get confused about the claimants, there is a list found on the following URL:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=loonies;action=display;num=1097613572;start=0#0

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 13, 2005, 01:19:40 PM
 
Quote
Is anyone familiar with the claims of a woman from Ohio...I have forgotten her name... was it Eugenia Smith?  

Here is what I know.

Eugenia Drabek Smetisko born 1899. D. 1931. She lived in Chicago. She wrote a book, Autobiography of HIH Anastasia Nicholaevna of Russia, in which she claimed to be the GD Anastasia. She came to the U.S. in the late 1920s, maybe 1928 or 29 I can't remember.
She originally told the book publisher that her book was from a manuscript given to her by AN. The publisher ask her to take a lie detector test and she flunked it. It was then that she changed her story and claimed that she was AN. Supposedly, at that point she took a second lie detector test which she passed. She was featured in an article by Life Magazine I think in the 1960s. I don't have a copy of that story.
I don't think she was ever really convincing and there were never any DNA tests.
That's all I know. I would like to know more, like the her story of the escape. I believe she was buried in New York, but could be wrong about that too. Hope this helps and I am sure there are others here that no more.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 13, 2005, 01:22:58 PM
Quote
Ok, here I a come all confused again/still.
Is this topic supposed to be about specfic survivor theories??? Like who claimed to be a survivor.
Bear, I understand where you are coming from with the idea of escape. I struggle with that too. Here is what I can't set aside. Yes there are many, many bones missing. But the DNA accounted for all but two of the IF. So how did all those accounted for end up in one grave? It would seem if they did escape, they did not survive long.


On one of the web sites is the sketch of the skeletons in the mass grave.  They were colored to show the layers.  It is possible that Nicholas II and I think it was Trupp were placed in the grave first....

Apparently it's no longer a theory that the mass grave has been opened two to four or more times.

Bones and skull have been removed and replaced during some of the openings of the grave.

And, yes, I suspect if there was an escape that between that same night and months which followed, the nine were captured.

Nine were executed.

Two are missing.

I have no idea if Alexandera or any of the girls were taken to Perm or anywhere else before they were eliminated.  These are  witnesses Mangold and Summers found in reports which had been elinated from  Sokolov's  book.

Problem with discovering the truth, both the Reds and the Whites seem to deny us all evidence so we, today, can sift through it and come to our own conclusions.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on July 13, 2005, 01:28:34 PM
Quote
I'm starting this new thread in the hopes that people who enjoy discussing various theories and presenting information will participate in an objective, non-hostile way.

My only requirement is that people remain courteous and refrain from personal attacks, baiting, and other disruptive posting.


Okay I will happily post any rumours that I have read but I cannot defend them, as I don't believe them.

rs
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 13, 2005, 01:32:57 PM
Quote
....[in part]....
Without using any testimonies of Yurovsky and the other executioners or buriel crew,  what evidence can you give me that proves the following  nine peoples' bones were  found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow?

The nine people are:
1 Anna Demidova
2. Dr. Evgeny Botkin
3 GD Olga
4. ex-Tsar Nicholas II
5. GD Marie
6. GD Tatiana
7. ex-Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexei Trupp

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/bones5.jpg)

....
AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 13, 2005, 01:48:58 PM
There are 206 bones in a human body.  If there were nine bodies then there should have been 9 X 206 = 1854 bones.  Considering the age and conditions, the following shows the number of "fragments" [parts] of bones found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow, not all should be found.  However, the Russian scientist who was part of the recovery thought there were too few bones despite the conditions.

Quote
Date 11 July 1991: The layers of the grave as the bones were being dug up and removed were:
1.  Top-layer was 30 centimeters
2.  Railroad ties with "redeposited soil" - southern wall of mass grave then stones, branches, rotten wood
3. First bone uncovered was left pelvic bone of human remains at depth of 50 centimeters
4. Found the box with three skulls, sacrum, glass ampoules and viles [human hair and frgments of skin], two lumbar vertebrae, kneecaps, two jaw fragments with teeth, a lower jaw, two loose teeth two vertebra from neck, a right rib bone, two metcarpal bones, a right hipbone, portion of a left shoulder bone,  which had been placed in the pit in 1980 by Ryabov and Avdonin who had returned what they had found and taken out.   The box was taken up and opened.
--

12 July 1991
5.  Determined the dig in 1979 had damaged the integrity of the 1918 grave
6. Pit was widen and deepen
7. More bones found as well as fragments of vessels which is assumed were what had held the acid used in 1918.... rope...
8. The laying of a cable was noticed on the western corner of the pit
9.  See diagram of now the bones were found....

[unclear when the following was found]
10.  firing mechanism from a hand grenade
11.  bullets:   fourteen bullets from the following:
       a. one - 7.63 mm Mauser
       b. four were from:
            Browning
            Colt
            Smith & Wesson
       c. nine were from:
             Russian Nagant revolvers
--

13 July 1991- Exhumation ended

----

For more details see THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS b y Wilson and King  pps. 402-8
----
23 July to 25 July 1991

Bones were taken from the grave and to the Upper Verkh-Isetsk Police Departemnt's shooting range which is on the edge of Sverdlovsk

On ten sheets of plain brown wrapping paper the bones were sorted  [ the tenth were for the "we don't know" pile
----
Days which followed.

Bones were cleaned and washed and it is said that some bones crumbled into dust during this process....
-----
8 Aug 1991
Moscow authorized the formal investigation of the bones under the leadship of Dr. Bladislav Plaskin

All bones were numbered with white paint
-----

End of Sept.
Remains were moved to the Department of Criminal Pathology morgue in Sverdlovsk, third floor and behind a gated and locked door....  Bones were placed on metal autopsy tables and arranged...

Total of 500 bone fragments were left  [there are 206 individal bones in each human body]....

------
Second dig of mass grave

Oct 1991
12.  300 bone fragments were found
13.  13 loose teeth
14. 11 bullets
15. 150 small pieces of fatty tissue
16. fragments of rope and ceramic
----

AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 13, 2005, 01:53:46 PM
Penny gave us addition information about the bones:

>> 
We can absolutely know quite a bit about what happened to the bodies from the physical forensic evidence. To answer your points:
 
1.The bones found in the grave showed no signs of chop marks.  Such bones as there were, were in reasonably articulated positions, with no suggestion of disarticulated limbs jumbled together.  Just look at the diagram that Bear has posted elsewhere.
 
The burned that occured was only the sort of burning (etching) that can be attributed to acid.  No evidence of charring from a fire was found on any of the bones.
 
2. There are two heads missing from the grave -- those of Alexei and Anastasia.  The rest of their bones are missing too.  In addition, only Kharitonov's skull-cap is extant, so I suppose you could say the lower part of his head is missing too.
 
3.They did have acid all over them -- see accounts of etched bones and earth so saturated in acid that it had a distinctive bluish tinge.
 
4.It's impossible to tell from the bones if any were raped.  Draw your own conclusions about the events on the Rus.
 
5. None of the nine bodies/skeletons in the grave was exposed to fire.  We don't have the remains of Alexei and Anastasia to be able to determine what happened to them.
 
6.There were many "relics" found at the site on the Koptyaki Road, both in 1918 and in recent years.  Several books list these relics consistently.
 
7.There is thus far no evidence extant of any murder except the one that occurred in the Ipatiev House basement.
 
The best way of determining what happened is through one's own research.  If you can't physically go to Ekaterinburg and other places to access original evidence and documents, then you're pretty much stuck with relying on what is in the published domain. <<
 
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 13, 2005, 07:36:20 PM
Thank you for posting this info.

Oh, Bear...I have a little question for you. (If you ask it I'll reward you with a HUGE pot of delicious honey).  ;D

Did you think was it possible that those nine people (the skeletons that were found in Koptyaky Wood),or at least some of them, were killed in Perm, and returned to be buried near Ekaterinburg? I'm not a strong believer in "Perm Theories", but it's my duty to know all theories and analyze them.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 14, 2005, 01:02:40 PM
Theories are great.  We can behind this word "theory" and voice all kinds of them.  But which ones should we take as serious?  I assume this is a serious question since a "huge pot of honey" has been offered.

Very few people like the theory of Mangold and Summers presented about Alexandra and her four daughters being held in Perm.

However, like Mangold and Summers, I think Perm is where they would have been taken if under the guardianship of the CHEKA who were acting independently from the Moscow Soviets, or, so we're told by those who think Lenin had absolutely nothing to do with what was happening to the Royal family during this time period.

I'll go find the map which shows the positions of the Reds and Whites at tht time so you can get a better mental picture of who was where and when.

Be right back.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 14, 2005, 01:08:53 PM
Quote
...[in part]...
I posted this map in several other places but it should be incerted here as well.

It gives us a detail map of how much  control the Whites had for a time.....

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/5X7.jpg)



.....AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 14, 2005, 01:23:16 PM
Over in the thread about testimony by witnesses who saw or thought they saw Alexandra and three girls or Anastasia is discussed on the following URL:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1091994509;start=0#0

Also listed there and on a separte thead is the doctor, who's name escapes me.... Dr. Utkin, who actualy testified in the AA trial, is also discussed.

There are other witnesses who claim their trains were searched.

All of this seems to indicate that the Reds were looking for missing Romanovs.

And, too, you must remember, Mangold and Summers didn't fabricate these eye witnesses.  They are in reports written by early investigators [moe than one].  See the Hover collection.  

Many think these reports aren't worth the paper upon which they were printed. I think they are worth viewing just like Mangold and Summers did.

Back to Perm.

Perm was a stronghold of the Reds.

So,  I'd say, yes, this is a possible place the CHEKA and the Ural Soviets might have taken one or all eleven.

Was there any place else?

That is  as sticky a question as my honey.

Let me go dig up some notes.

AGRBear  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 14, 2005, 02:36:55 PM
At the moment I'm digging around for my notes which deal with Lysva.

Why?

The  word "lysv_" is written on the wall in the Ipatiev basement/ execution room.

Over on the thread:   Did any of the Romanov's survived?  we talked about the marks on the wall and Penny sent us a photo:

Quote
Penny's photo:
....See Post #45 below for the smaller version of the photo of "lysv" found.....


There was questions about what lysv could mean.

There is suggestions it was a place:  Lysev or Lysva, where the estate of Count Paul Benkendorff, who was known to have been part of a plot to rescue Nicholas II, was in or near or part of....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 14, 2005, 06:46:49 PM
At the risk of getting rocks thrown my direction    ;D ;D......
Does anyone know if there was a tunnel under or near the Impatiev House? I just finished re-reading Shay McNeal's book. <dodging rocks>(i kept an open mind this time) and find several of her theories worthy of discussion.
She mentions a tunnel. It seems that would be something that someone somewhere know about...if there was a tunnel through which the IF could have escaped.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 14, 2005, 07:15:38 PM
I refuse to allow rock-throwing on this thread.  Any questions should be permitted and any theories can be explored.

Besides, I put this thread on the sand, and there are no rocks.  A few seashells, but they don't hurt when people throw them!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 14, 2005, 09:11:31 PM
Quote
Over in the thread about testimony by witnesses who saw or thought they saw Alexandra and three girls or Anastasia is discussed on the following URL:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1091994509;start=0#0

Also listed there and on a separte thead is the doctor, who's name escapes me.... Dr. Utkin, who actualy testified in the AA trial, is also discussed.

There are other witnesses who claim their trains were searched.

All of this seems to indicate that the Reds were looking for missing Romanovs.

And, too, you must remember, Mangold and Summers didn't fabricate these eye witnesses.  They are in reports written by early investigators [moe than one].  See the Hover collection.  

Many think these reports aren't worth the paper upon which they were printed. I think they are worth viewing just like Mangold and Summers did.

Back to Perm.

Perm was a stronghold of the Reds.

So,  I'd say, yes, this is a possible place the CHEKA and the Ural Soviets might have taken one or all eleven.

Was there any place else?

That is  as sticky a question as my honey.

Let me go dig up some notes.

AGRBear  


And who are the nine skeletons found in the Koptyaky Wood gravesite? Did the Bolsheviks bring the eleven persons to Perm, shot at them and after it, bring them back  to Ekaterinburg? I'm not saying that it's not possible, but it's quite odd. But since your theories are always very interesting I must analyze carefully all you wrote. Of course, Perm theories and the classical Ekaterinburg ones, have a thing in common: two bodies are still missing, and there was witnesses saying that they saw at least one of the girls alive (or the four of them if remember Perm stories correctly).

And remember: you have a huge pot of honey waiting !  ;D

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Abby on July 14, 2005, 09:15:11 PM
Quote
At the risk of getting rocks thrown my direction    ;D ;D......
Does anyone know if there was a tunnel under or near the Impatiev House? I just finished re-reading Shay McNeal's book. <dodging rocks>(i kept an open mind this time) and find several of her theories worthy of discussion.
She mentions a tunnel. It seems that would be something that someone somewhere know about...if there was a tunnel through which the IF could have escaped.


Yep, I remember reading that too. As for the tunnel, I don't know. I highly doubt it though, because that theory was based on a scene in 'Rescuing the Czar' (where Fox secreted the family away out of the Ipatiev house through a tunnel leading to the British Embassy)...and the book later turned out to be a fallcy.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 14, 2005, 09:52:35 PM
Thank you Abby,
However, there was a lot of mining in and around Ekaterinburg and where there is mining there are tunnels. Shay does draw from the book 'Rescuing the Czar." The book was discredited, but I am not so willing to write it off after reading McNeal's book. I have not read Rescuing the Czar...yet. She seems to think there is evidence that in the book that is supported by other evidence she found during her research.
But this topic is not about her work although I think discussing her theories about the alleged escape is fair game.

P.S. could you guys limit the large posts that are already on other threads? It's a slow load if you don't have high speed internet. Thank you.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tasha_R on July 14, 2005, 10:13:02 PM
The estate of Count Beckendorff... now where had I heard that from in one of the claimant threads?  (I'm starting to get confused by the different stories, as you can probably tell!)

Helen, you had an interesting theory there on Alexandra being artificially inseminated and folks knowing from whom the zygote came.  Not that I believe the AA story (indeed, I haven't much looked at the thread here, since when the DNA tests came out, I basically accepted that it was impossible that AA could have been Anastasia), but while I was reading the books about her story, I was always bothered by the fact that the royals generally dismissed her as being someone very specific.  It constantly brought to mind to me several questions:

1) How on earth did they know of this Polish factory worker in the first place?

2) If she were indeed Franczeska, what reason would anyone have to alter one of her photographs so it would look so much like AA?  Indeed, why would there be any reason to alter the photograph at all?

3) How could a Polish factory worker know half of what AA was peported to have known.

I realize that these questions belong on another thread.  I just to say that I found your theory interesting, Helen.  It would make a lot of sense, because if it were known by the family of Anastasia's "actual" parentage (if this were indeed the case), even if she had survived, she probably could not have carried on the line due to this.

Interesting.  Is this theory presented elsewhere where I can read more about it?

Thanks,
Tasha
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 14, 2005, 11:06:38 PM
Quote
The estate of Count Beckendorff... now where had I heard that from in one of the claimant threads?  (I'm starting to get confused by the different stories, as you can probably tell!)

Helen, you had an interesting theory there on Alexandra being artificially inseminated and folks knowing from whom the zygote came.  Not that I believe the AA story (indeed, I haven't much looked at the thread here, since when the DNA tests came out, I basically accepted that it was impossible that AA could have been Anastasia), but while I was reading the books about her story, I was always bothered by the fact that the royals generally dismissed her as being someone very specific.  It constantly brought to mind to me several questions:

1) How on earth did they know of this Polish factory worker in the first place?

2) If she were indeed Franczeska, what reason would anyone have to alter one of her photographs so it would look so much like AA?  Indeed, why would there be any reason to alter the photograph at all?

3) How could a Polish factory worker know half of what AA was peported to have known.

I realize that these questions belong on another thread.  I just to say that I found your theory interesting, Helen.  It would make a lot of sense, because if it were known by the family of Anastasia's "actual" parentage (if this were indeed the case), even if she had survived, she probably could not have carried on the line due to this.

Interesting.  Is this theory presented elsewhere where I can read more about it?

Thanks,
Tasha

Tasha,
There are several threads that about FS AA that address the questions you ask. You will find them under the survivors thread. There is one that compares the similarities between FS/AA, one that contrasts the differences, one that discusses photos all kinds of things. I hope this thread isn't going to digress into yet another FS/AA thread.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 14, 2005, 11:44:20 PM
Well, I've read the Fox book and it was utter balderdash.  Full of conjectures and mysterious sources that could not be traced.  Very "National Inquirer"-like.  And when it talked about that psycho Polish colonel being Alexei, well, they lost me entirely.

From what I hear, Mcneal's done better research and doesn't draw any conclusions about the fate of the Romanovs.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 15, 2005, 02:09:01 PM
Unfortunately, that is the size the photo was copied.

I'll copy the copy and downsize it when I can because I realize it does take up space and it's hard for some of you to load.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 15, 2005, 04:31:08 PM
Stumbled over this a minute ago so thougt I'd bring the quote and images over here.  Saves be the trouble of making up a new photo.

Quote
i found this picture of the basement that the romanovs were killed and that there were theese signs that meant somthing. i'll post a pcture of the signs and some art of the mystic signs. is this real or just made up?

picture of the mystic signs.
(http://www.romanov-memorial.com/Pic/Cellar_Cabalistics_Signs.jpg)
and art of the mystic signs
(http://www.romanov-memorial.com/Pic/Cellar_Cabal_Scene.jpg)

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Kimberly on July 15, 2005, 04:50:13 PM
Hi Bear, do we know what these Mystic Signs mean regards Kim
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 15, 2005, 04:56:47 PM
Quote
Hi Bear, do we know what these Mystic Signs mean regards Kim

All of that is posted under the Mystic Signs thread. You might try looking there.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 15, 2005, 04:59:46 PM
I'll have to look up and see what those who think they were mystic scrawl believe.

The direction I was headed was the following:

To some it appears the   word "lysv_" is written on the wall in the Ipatiev basement/ execution room.

If indeed it is a word, it may be referring to  a place:  Lysev or Lysva, where the estate of Count Paul Benkendorff, who was known to have been part of a plot to rescue Nicholas II, was in or near or part of....

Who was Count Paul Benckendorff (1833-1921)?  He had been the Grand Marshal of the Imperial Court and remained loyal to Nicholas II to the end,  or so I'm told.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 15, 2005, 05:20:45 PM
Mangold and Summers FILE ON THE TSAR pp. 76-77 wrote:


>>On the same wall there was another enigma.   Just above the level of the planking, was a second odd inscription comprising four smbols which have never been satisfactorily interpreted.<<

[scrawl shown]

>>In the Biritsh Museum there is a curious little booklet called  Sacrifice, devoted to deciphering these signs.  The author...under the pseudonym of Enel, decided that three of the symbols were the letter "L" in its Greek, Hebrew and Samaritan versions.  Since these were the three languages of Jewish history, Enel deduces that the writer was a Jew.<<

There is thought that this scrawl and the poem of Heine's which in part is also on the wall is blaming the death of the imperial family on the Jews.  OR,  they were Jews who wrote these words and symbols.  The truth is,  at this time, no one knows.

And, as I'm about to write about is that the scrawl when viewed in a mirror seems to spell "Lysv '_", which is place name.

Or, as Penny and Greg have discovered there was a secret Bolshevik group who were called "L----"  [can't recall the exact word which was similar as "lysv"] who were sent to assasinate the "unwanted" outside of Russia.  I'm not sure that post is around anymore.   If I remember correctly, Greg had discovered this group in an article....


AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 15, 2005, 05:51:20 PM
"Since these were the three languages of Jewish history, Enel deduces that the writer was a Jew."

The problem with this theory is that Samaritan was never a Jewish language.  The Samaritans were vehemently hated by Israelites and not accepted as Jews.  The thought that a Jewish person would use the Samaritan written language like this is absurd.

Nor was Greek really a Jewish language.  It was the language of the occupiers.  It would be akin to a Jew writing a swastika on something.......
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 15, 2005, 06:07:15 PM
Does that mean Enel's theory can be placed in my "I doubt it box"?

Is Lys or Lysv a word in Hebrew or Russian or any other language?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 16, 2005, 12:08:53 AM
Yep, toss that theory into the "baloney on toast" basket.

And it's not a Hebrew word....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on July 16, 2005, 09:11:03 AM
Enel was the pen name of a known antisemite, I will look up his real name if you want it.

Ok
Not Gorlinueski
Not Eugenia Smith
There were a number of stories of supposed surviving family members hiding in the hills/convents/caves but they are all FOAF tales (urban legends) that can never be tracted down or examined.
I read of some woman claiming to have been the daughter of Anastasia who was abandoned in an American Convent when a child.
There are lots of tales of secret children and grandchildren who often claim to have had secret meetings with people like Dan Quale...

Or maybe the aliens collected the family in the
mothership.



Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 16, 2005, 09:30:14 AM
"Or maybe the aliens collected the family in the  
mothership."

Now that's just plain RUDE.  It's "Mother Ship".  Capitalized.

I find some of the theories about Ekaterinburg and Perm to appear to have some merit.  I suppose it is possible that the events in the cellar were not as described by the assassins.  However, this would mean that, if for example the family was separated and killed or died apart, all of the bodies (except 2) would have had to have been collected and buried in the same place.  That seems rather implausible.

Has anyone seen an explanation for why the calendar in the Romanov quarters at the House of Special Purpose was not on the same date as the execution?

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 16, 2005, 10:18:46 AM
Quote
"Or maybe the aliens collected the family in the  
mothership."

Now that's just plain RUDE.  It's "Mother Ship".  Capitalized.

I find some of the theories about Ekaterinburg and Perm to appear to have some merit.  I suppose it is possible that the events in the cellar were not as described by the assassins.  However, this would mean that, if for example the family was separated and killed or died apart, all of the bodies (except 2) would have had to have been collected and buried in the same place.  That seems rather implausible.

Has anyone seen an explanation for why the calendar in the Romanov quarters at the House of Special Purpose was not on the same date as the execution?
 


Taking the bodies back to bury them does seem "rather implalusible" doesn't it.  But then it depends how important it was to the CHEKA to continue their "cover-up" of what happened.  

Who knows, maybe, only the Ekaterinburg CHEKA and a couple of the Ural Soviets were aware of the mess the CHEKA had created or the rescue.

Nothing would surprise me about what happened that night.

What date was the calendar?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 16, 2005, 10:23:59 AM
I believe it was two weeks before the execution....lemme check. It's in the File on the Tsar....

Just checked.  Ten days.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 16, 2005, 10:30:29 AM
I had forgotten that fact.

23 June / 6 July  [Page 68 THE FILE ON THE TSAR] p. 67: >>... from Investigator Nametkin's "minute inspection of the Ipatiev House".  He was accompanied by Captain Malinovsky of he Officer' commission and again by  Chernodurov and Dr. Derevenko.  Together they made a painstaking inentory of all that seemed to be left of the Romanovs....<<

Anyone else mention this in other books?

Checked Alexandra's diary:

... [ in part...]
"Yurvsky and his assistant are beginning to understnad just what kind of people we were surrounded by, who stole from us as they guarded us."

No entry in this book for the 26 or 27 June / 7 or 8 of July.

The last entry in my book which mentions Nicky's diary is "21 June/ 4 July -Ekaterinburg"

AGRBear

PS Remember, now, that it was  Captain Malinovsky who  thought the execution was staged.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on July 16, 2005, 11:22:56 AM
Hands trusty cricket bat to lexi4...to bat away bricks,stones,Volvos...or whatever is thrown in her direction...


Teddy has ordered her a Pimm's Cup Royal in the pavilion....and a few for himself.....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 16, 2005, 11:41:39 AM
Pimms cup arrived....thank Teddy.
Appreciate the cricket bat....Now, how do I swing it?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 16, 2005, 11:47:59 AM
Quote
Thank you Abby,
However, there was a lot of mining in and around Ekaterinburg and where there is mining there are tunnels. Shay does draw from the book 'Rescuing the Czar." The book was discredited, but I am not so willing to write it off after reading McNeal's book. I have not read Rescuing the Czar...yet. She seems to think there is evidence that in the book that is supported by other evidence she found during her research.
But this topic is not about her work although I think discussing her theories about the alleged escape is fair game.

P.S. could you guys limit the large posts that are already on other threads? It's a slow load if you don't have high speed internet. Thank you.


McNeals' book has not been discredited and is full of theories.  Some quite interesting.

The RESCUING THE CZAR was a fictional book and McNeal used it to discover information about the person/persons [at the moment I don't recall if there was just one author]  who wrote it,  the people mentioned in it....  McNeal was researching new ground and her conclusions may be different than your own....

 One of our posters was married into the family of the man who published the book and becomes quite upset when McNeal's book is mention.  There is a group who agree with her. I'm not going to get in the middle of that disagreement.

As for myself,  I found some of the new information in McNeal's worth my attention and because she was very good in  stating her  sources, I was able  to go to those sources, if avaliable in English,  and was able to make up my own mind about the various "theories".

To me, it does appear that the author/authors of RESCUING THE CZAR knew people or people who knew people who might have been invovled with one or more plots to rescue Nicholas II.  

The tunnel scene with Alexei running and digging  in RESCUING THE CZAR is not believeable because we know, and obviously the author/authors did not,   about Alexei's difficult recovery, his lost of weight and that he was just starting to walk.   This could mean that the author/authors never was able to speak to those who knew what happen in the actual event, if one occured, or,  like an author of fiction does,  he just wrote what he knew and filled in the rest and hoped the book would sell.

If there was/is an actual tunnel,  I don't know.

There was minning....  Cistern tunnel ???  Escape tunnel built for the Ipatiev House???  No idea if there was one.

On one of these threads is the URL where RESCUING THE CZAR can be found and read.  I suggest going to the book section where McNeal's book is  hotly discussed.


AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on July 16, 2005, 12:01:29 PM
Quote
Pimms cup arrived....thank Teddy.
Appreciate the cricket bat....Now, how do I swing it?


..how do I swing it...?...("Wildly")...just to be on the safe side....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 16, 2005, 12:03:19 PM
Speaking of McNeal,  her book probably has something in it about "lysva".  If I have time today or in the next few days,  I'll dig her book out and see what she says.

Meanwhile,  my pesky notes on lysva are in a box which must have been mismarked.  [Yes, rskkiya, still in boxes.  If you are iritated in hearing this just think how I feel.]

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 16, 2005, 12:07:57 PM
Sorry bear, poor choice of words on MeNeal's book. I should have used the word criticized. Thanks for catching that, it left the wrong impression. And I do think her theories are worthy of discussion.
I have read the thread on the book. Many times. I do not have the book Rescuing the Csar, but have ordered it.  I posted about her book because I thought if the topic was about survivor theories, escape possibilities could be part of the discussion.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 16, 2005, 12:08:27 PM
Quote
Soory bear, poor choice of words on MeNeal's book. I should have used the word criticized. Thanks for catching that, it left the wrong impression. And I do think her theories are worthy of discussion.


Thanks for the change "discredited" to "criticized", unfortunately for McNeal "discredited"  is a word some of the other posters  do use.  

Glad to see that you, too, think some of her theories are worthy of discussion.

There were three or was it four fellows who were also interested but didn't want to waste their time  in defending their posts from those who were getting too personal rather than sticking with the subjects such as theories of survivors.  Several of them know McNeal and atleast one has dug into the actual files just being discovered....  So, we've lost their knowledge which was a whole lot more than I know.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: JonC on July 16, 2005, 12:56:40 PM
Bear...what can I say, you are wonderful!

I don't think this forum would be as informed without you. I have learned so much from your posts that I look forward signing on just to read what you have posted.

You are tireless in your detail, a lesson for me. You humble the self aggrandized with facts, possibilities, and calm, straight talk. Thanks, JonC.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 16, 2005, 01:38:53 PM
Reading REscuing the Tsar is like reading the Weekly World News.  Just warnin' ya!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 16, 2005, 04:36:33 PM
Thanks for the warning ;)

Looks like I don't have to but it, it is online http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/12983

Isn't modern technology wonderful?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 16, 2005, 05:55:07 PM
Quote

There was questions about what lysv could mean.

There is suggestions it was a place:  Lysev or Lysva, where the estate of Count Paul Benkendorff, who was known to have been part of a plot to rescue Nicholas II, was in or near or part of....

AGRBear


I found a book today on the net written by Count Paul Beckendorf in 1927 called "Last Days at Tsarkoe Selo". It is described as a detailed account starting from the abducation of Nicholas ll. It might make an interesting read.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 16, 2005, 06:03:24 PM
Thanks for telling us about the book.  Can you tell us where you found it?

Does anyone already have this book?  If so, does it say anything about the estate near/in Lysva?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 16, 2005, 06:32:06 PM
I did a Google on the Count ;D That sounds rather compromising, doesn't it?

This is the only relevant thing that I found:

http://www.geocities.com/vienna/9463/library.html

I will see if I can find it for sale.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 16, 2005, 07:20:49 PM
So far, my attempts to locate the book have been unsuccessful.  :'(
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 16, 2005, 07:28:48 PM
"Last Days..." is a Royalty Digest reprint. You might ask them for availabilty.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 16, 2005, 08:29:46 PM
Thank you, Robert. I will check it out. I found nothing looking in all the usual places.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 16, 2005, 08:32:33 PM
I found it at Royalty Digest as Robert suggested.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 16, 2005, 10:08:31 PM
Since the is about survivor theories, I will present this one.

On Dec. 23, 1918 there was a front page story in the New York Times written by Carl Ackerman. The document Ackerman used for his story reportedly came from the American Consul in Ekaterinberg. (according to Shay McNeal p. 146 The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar. This is also from Summers & Mangold.
Ackerman's papers are on file at the Library of Congress. This is from the document he used according to Summers & Mangold.
The theory is that only the Tsar was executed.

"Later it proved that nobody, exept his wife and son, of all his beloved were allowed to bid farewell to the former czar. Nikolai Alexandrovitch, his wife and son remained together till there appeared still other five soldiers of the Red army with the chairman of the Soviet and with two members of it --workmen, "Put on your top-coat!" resolutely commanded the chairman of the Soviet. Nikolai Alexandrovitch, who did not lose his self-possession, began to dress, kissed his wife, son, the lacky, once more made the sign of the cross over them and addressing the men who had come for him, said in a loud voice: "Now I am at your disposal..." Nikolai Alexandrovitch was taken away, nobody knows where, and has been shot in the night of the 16 July by a group of soldiers of the Red Army consisting of 20 men. Before the dawn of the day the chairman of the Soviet again came tothe room where Nikolai Alexandrovitch had been heldk, and with him some soldiers of the Red Army, a doctcor and the commissar of the guard. The doctor gave assisstance to Alexandra Feodorovna and to Aleksei Nikolaievich. Then the chairman of the Soviet asked the doctor: "Is it possible to take them at once?" "Yes." "Citizen Alexandra Feodorovna Romanova and Aleksei Romanov --get ready, you shalle be forwarded from here. You are allowed to take with you only the most necessary things, not over 30 - 40 pounds." said the chairman. Mastering themselves but tumbling from side to side mother and son got ready. The chairman did not permit them to bid farewell to their beloved ones, hurrying them all the time....Alexandra Feodorovna and Aleksei Nikolaievich were at once taken away in an automobile -- it is now known where."
Apparently this is called the Domnin account. It was written by Parfen Domnin, a man who did not exist although there are theories about who he really was assuming he was using a fake name.

Just a theory. Shay McNeal also writes about this in her book The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar.
Ackerman was a well-respected journalist who helped found the Columbia School of Journalism in New York. According to McNeal he also worked for the State Department.
In his bio on the unversity's web site, he is described as: "Ackerman had entered the school as a fourth-year student and had earned a degree in 1913 with the school’s first graduating class. In the First World War, Ackerman made a name as a foreign correspondent, initially with United Press, covering the conflict from both sides, and was one of the first on the scene of the execution of the tsar and his family in the Bolshevik Revolution. "
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 05:57:16 PM
Since Ackermann was a veteran journalist,  I wonder why he believed this version five months later:

>>On Dec. 23, 1918 there was a front page story in the New York Times written by Carl Ackerman. The document Ackerman used for his story reportedly came from the American Consul in Ekaterinberg. (according to Shay McNeal p. 146 The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar. This is also from Summers & Mangold. <<

By this time,  the Whites were claiming that all eleven were murdered.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 17, 2005, 06:05:36 PM
Quote
Since Ackermann was a veteran journalist,  I wonder why he believed this version five months later:

>>On Dec. 23, 1918 there was a front page story in the New York Times written by Carl Ackerman. The document Ackerman used for his story reportedly came from the American Consul in Ekaterinberg. (according to Shay McNeal p. 146 The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar. This is also from Summers & Mangold. <<

By this time,  the Whites were claiming that all eleven were murdered.

AGRBear

Help me out Bear, I don't understand your question.

I should also mention that Shay McNeal uncovered evidence that Ackerman worked for the State Department which would help explain his ability to travel easily to Russia.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 17, 2005, 07:02:08 PM
It is so interesting to me that the stories which report a different scenario than the Ekaterinburg murders are not just unsubstantiated verbal rumors, but are based on DOCUMENTS.......to spend the time putting things down in writing (other than a one-line gossip item) requires some belief in the veracity of the story.

This leads me to wonder about the motives of all of the affidavits as well as the reports issued in this case.  Why did the executioners prepare and sign affidavits?  Are they any more verifiable than any other written report?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 11:20:44 PM
Ackermann wrote a story:

>> Nikolai Alexandrovitch was taken away, nobody knows where, and has been shot in the night of the 16 July by a group of soldiers of the Red Army consisting of 20 men. Before the dawn of the day the chairman of the Soviet again came tothe room where Nikolai Alexandrovitch had been heldk, and with him some soldiers of the Red Army, a doctcor and the commissar of the guard. The doctor gave assisstance to Alexandra Feodorovna and to Aleksei Nikolaievich. Then the chairman of the Soviet asked the doctor: "Is it possible to take them at once?" "Yes." "Citizen Alexandra Feodorovna Romanova and Aleksei Romanov --get ready, you shalle be forwarded from here. You are allowed to take with you only the most necessary things, not over 30 - 40 pounds." said the chairman. Mastering themselves but tumbling from side to side mother and son got ready. The chairman did not permit them to bid farewell to their beloved ones, hurrying them all the time....Alexandra Feodorovna and Aleksei Nikolaievich were at once taken away in an automobile -- it is now known where." <<

This was dated 23 Dec 1918.

This was five months after the 16th of July 1918 when the family is historicaly believed have been executed.

By this time, the Whites under Gen. Dieterickh [sp., will correct then I get back home] was already pushing investigators  into saying all eleven died in the basement of the Ipatiev House.

If Ackerman was a vetern journalist, and, he knew Ekaterinburg, then he would have known all the right people to find out the "scoop" of what happened to Nicholas II and the others.  He used the information from the American Consul.

So,  why did the American Consul believed Alexandra and Alexei were still alive as late as  23 Dec 1918?  

True, the CHEKA and the Ural Soviets claim they wanted the world to think that they had only killed Nicholas II and not the others.

But the world wasn't in Ekaterinburg where the  the drunken Ermakov and others were bragging they had killed Nicholas II and all the others.....  

Surly,  the executioners bragging words must have reach those who were there to listen to men like Ermankov,  so, I would assume  this would have reached the ears of the Americans just as it must have reached a lot of other ears.  So, why would they continue to think just Nicholas II was executed?

By the way, does anyone know who  the American Consul was in Ekaterinburg?

My problem is:  How do we know which stories to believe because someone must be spreading "red herrings" or "white herrings" or "green herrings" or whatever kind of herrings they were which covered up the truth.  Because someone isn't telling the truth because there are two bodies missing and not where we are told they are suppose to be found.

So, until we find the bodies,  I'll continue to look around for clues which might help solve this mystery.

This means that we need to go back and look at old records which others thought were not important at the time.

AGRBear




Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 17, 2005, 11:35:02 PM
There is alot more information about Ackerman and the Parfen Domnin report in  McNeal's book as well as Summers & Mangold. I will see what else I can find. I believe it was McNeal who found some type of document that shows that Ackerman worked for the State Departmen.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 11:37:59 PM
I probably won't be near any of my books in the next few days so I'll have to depend on everyone else until I get back home.  So, if you would, please, let it know what else is said about them.

Thanks.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 17, 2005, 11:43:26 PM
Will do my best to get more information posted for you.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 11:48:52 PM
>>Apparently this is called the Domnin account. It was written by Parfen Domnin, a man who did not exist although there are theories about who he really was assuming he was using a fake name. <<

If the story of Ackermann's follows the CHEKA and Ural Soviet report then why is it tagged the "Dommin account" written by Parfen Domnin???

And, so, on top of all this, we're told that Parfen Domnin didn't exist or was an allias.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Abby on July 18, 2005, 07:45:35 AM
Yeah, I remember reading in either 'File on the Tsar' or 'Rescue of the Romanovs' that Domnin might have been an alias of one of the Tsar's footmen, but it couldn't have been Kharitonov or Trupp, because they were in the basement with the family on July 16/17. I was really confused by the whole Domnin thing -- someone was obviously covering for something, if Parfen Domnin didn't exist.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on July 18, 2005, 09:35:16 AM
I just found David Frances' reference in his memoirs. He was the last US ambassador to Imperial Russia. He wrote a letter on Sept. 23, 1918 :
"The Emperor was shot by the Bolsheviks on the 16th of July, last, after having been removed from Tobolsk to Ekaterinburg.  He was killed by order of the local soviet, whose action was subsequently approved by the Central Soviet at Moscow.  A courier from the American Counsel at Ekaterinburg to myself, who left Ekaterinburg August 2, and after many vicissitudes arrived in Archangel [where Frances had evacuated to after leaving Petrograd] August 24th, told me that the Emperor was shot July 16, but nobody knew it until July 18, when it was officially announced.  He said that the disposition of the body was not known, bu the rumor was that it had been thrown into a coal mine and burned.  He said that the members of the Red Guard or Red Army who were ordered to shoot the Emperor refused to do so, and a detachment of Lettish soldiers was ordered to shoot him, but when they found it was the Emperor, they declined to shoot and thereupon the local Commissar himself shot him."

Clearly, the ONLY information the American Cousel in Ekaterinburg had was the "official" Bolshevik announcement and nothing more. "but nobody knew it until July 18, when it was officially announced.  All the New York Times was reporting was this same "official party line" story.  No great revelations or genuine information here folks. The Bolsheviks made up the story to disassociate genuine responsibility for the executions and this was the story released and repeated.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 18, 2005, 11:24:03 AM
Quote
Yeah, I remember reading in either 'File on the Tsar' or 'Rescue of the Romanovs' that Domnin might have been an alias of one of the Tsar's footmen, but it couldn't have been Kharitonov or Trupp, because they were in the basement with the family on July 16/17. I was really confused by the whole Domnin thing -- someone was obviously covering for something, if Parfen Domnin didn't exist.



Parfen Domnin was alleged to have been Terenty Chemodurov, the valet dismissed from service by Nicholas shortly after arrival in Ekaterinburg.  Chemodurov was quite elderly at this time, and had fallen ill, though some accounts claim that his illness was the on-set of some form or other of senility.

On leaving the Ipatiev House, Chemodurov was taken to the city hospital, where he was lodged in a regular ward, rather than the prison ward -- thus he escaped the notice of the Ural Bolsheviks and was not taken to Perm and later murdered like other members of the Imperial Suite and Household.

Chemodurov was replaced in the Ipatiev House by Alexei Trupp.

Following the murders and the fall of Ekaterinburg to the White Forces, Chemodurov left the hospital and provided some assistance to the first investigators.  Later, he returned to Tobolsk, where his wife was living, and he died there in 1920.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 18, 2005, 12:15:51 PM
Evidently,  I still haven't made myself very clear.

Ackermann's story was written 23 Dec 1918 some five months after the execution.

"five months"

By this time, the Whites were declaring ALL the family had been executed , so, why would Ackermann, a veteran journalist, use an old story, which was already out, and write it again for world wide news, which told the readers only Nicholas II was shot?  And, why would the NY  Times print an old story?

Thanks everyone for the information on consul and who Domin might be.

So what else does this "Domin Report" tell us?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on July 18, 2005, 12:19:34 PM
Quote
I just found David Frances' reference in his memoirs. He was the last US ambassador to Imperial Russia. He wrote a letter on Sept. 23, 1918 :
"The Emperor was shot by the Bolsheviks on the 16th of July, last, after having been removed from Tobolsk to Ekaterinburg.  He was killed by order of the local soviet, whose action was subsequently approved by the Central Soviet at Moscow.  A courier from the American Counsel at Ekaterinburg to myself, who left Ekaterinburg August 2, and after many vicissitudes arrived in Archangel [where Frances had evacuated to after leaving Petrograd] August 24th, told me that the Emperor was shot July 16, but nobody knew it until July 18, when it was officially announced.  He said that the disposition of the body was not known, bu the rumor was that it had been thrown into a coal mine and burned.  He said that the members of the Red Guard or Red Army who were ordered to shoot the Emperor refused to do so, and a detachment of Lettish soldiers was ordered to shoot him, but when they found it was the Emperor, they declined to shoot and thereupon the local Commissar himself shot him."

Clearly, the ONLY information the American Cousel in Ekaterinburg had was the "official" Bolshevik announcement and nothing more. "but nobody knew it until July 18, when it was officially announced.  All the New York Times was reporting was this same "official party line" story.  No great revelations or genuine information here folks. The Bolsheviks made up the story to disassociate genuine responsibility for the executions and this was the story released and repeated.



David R. Francis (1950-1927) was the Ambassador to Russia from the US under President Woodrow Wilson. Secretary of the Interior under Grover Cleveland,  and 27 Gov Of Missouri.   He was also the head of the 1904 St. Louis  Worlds Fair, he is buried here in St. Louis at the Bellefontaine Cemetery.

I don't think that Yurovsky and his guards could have executed the Tsar seperately, we are forgetting about the rush for time, and the disposal issue.  I still think they were all executed same room, same day, same place, same time, same bat channel.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on July 18, 2005, 12:24:44 PM
Quote
Evidently,  I still haven't made myself very clear.

Ackermann's story was written 23 Dec 1918 some five months after the execution.

"five months"

By this time, the Whites were declaring ALL the family had been executed , so, why would Ackermann, a veteran journalist, use an old story, which was already out, and write it again for world wide news, which told the readers only Nicholas II was shot?  And, why would the World Press print an old story?

Thanks everyone for the information on consul and who Domin might be.

So what else does this "Domin Report" tell us?

AGRBear



Bear, I think that one of the reasons is that there were so many stories and theories floated about during that time frame, that Ackerman could have believed the alternate theories, some of the people proposing them could have been quite credible.  

However I think the evidence of the basement room, the disappearance of the entire family and them being subsequently traced to the the Four Brothers mine and beyond that to Pigs Meadow, shows that they were all executed at the Ipatiev House that evening.

HOWEVER, considering the political climate in Russia at the time, wouldn't it have been wise of the Bolsheviks to throw the hounds off of the scent with a few distractions, it gives them time to get their house in order so to speak, if those looking for the IF are sent running in 20 different directions.  The Bolsheviks were experts at this sort of thing, it was their forte.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 18, 2005, 12:24:57 PM
Does anyone know what story the New York Times or a London news or Russian carried this first story that only Nicholas II was executed?

Surly it was before 23 Dec 1918.....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on July 18, 2005, 12:31:17 PM
From NY Times:
LONDON, July, 20.--Nicholas Romanoff, ex-Czar of Russia, was shot July 16, according to a Russian announcement by wireless today.

The former Empress and Alexis Romanoff have been sent to a place of security. [then goes on to reprint the entire text of the Boshevik announcement]

There have been rumors since June 24 that ex-Czar Nicholas of Russia has been assassinated.  The first of these stated that he had been killed at Yekaterinburg by Red Guards.  This report was denied later, but this denial was closely followed by a Geneva dispatch saying that Nicholas had been executted by the Bolsheviki after a trial at Yekaterinburg.  This report seemed to be confirmed by advices to Washington from Stockholm.

The next report was what purported to be an intercepted wireless message from M. Tchicherin the Bolshevik foreign minister, in which it was stated that Nicholas was dead.  Still ontgher report was to the effect that he had been bayonetted by a guard while being taken from Yekaterinburg to Perm.  Of all these reports there was no direct confirmation.

There seemingly is no question that yesterday's dispatch is authentic.  It comes in the form of a Russian wireless dispatch, and as the wireless plants of Russia are under the control of the Bolsheviki, it appears that it is an official version of the death of the former Emperor." Pg 1, cont on pg 8
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 18, 2005, 12:44:16 PM
Quote

Bear, I think that one of the reasons is that there were so many stories and theories floated about during that time frame, that Ackerman could have believed the alternate theories, some of the people proposing them could have been quite credible.  

However I think the evidence of the basement room, the disappearance of the entire family and them being subsequently traced to the the Four Brothers mine and beyond that to Pigs Meadow, shows that they were all executed at the Ipatiev House that evening.

HOWEVER, considering the political climate in Russia at the time, wouldn't it have been wise of the Bolsheviks to throw the hounds off of the scent with a few distractions, it gives them time to get their house in order so to speak, if those looking for the IF are sent running in 20 different directions.  The Bolsheviks were experts at this sort of thing, it was their forte.


Yes,  sending people in 20 different directions is what the CHEKA, which later became known as the KGB, were very good in  doing and all of this was for misdirecting traffic as they saw fit.

That is my point, exactly.  

So, which direction to we look?  All 20 different directions.  And, maybe,   more than 20 different directions.

What we have for our main source is Jacob Yurovsky, the man who was in charge of the execution.  And,  if something did go wrong, do you think he'd tell the truth?  He'd work his tail off to make sure no one knew something went wrong, such as an escape of one or two or all and then having to find them all and execute them, again, and then burying them where they were suppose to have been buried.  The story he told the Ural Soviets.....  And all this time the early White group is pouring into Ekaterinburg and the White Army is but a few days from entering the city....  

I assume most of the eleven were found quite quickly.  

So,  what was the CHEKA to do with eleven living perons?  They couldn't keep this a secret so probably someone had to tell the Ural Soviets and then someone had to tell the Moscow Soviets....

Where did Yurovsky head?  Moscow.

I have no idea what happened.  I'm just sniffing and digging looking for his  morsels that I might digest or I'll just pop them into the   "I don't think so" box.

AGRBear






Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 18, 2005, 12:53:47 PM
Quote
From NY Times:
LONDON, July, 20.--Nicholas Romanoff, ex-Czar of Russia, was shot July 16, according to a Russian announcement by wireless today.

The former Empress and Alexis Romanoff have been sent to a place of security. [then goes on to reprint the entire text of the Boshevik announcement]

There have been rumors since June 24 that ex-Czar Nicholas of Russia has been assassinated.  The first of these stated that he had been killed at Yekaterinburg by Red Guards.  This report was denied later, but this denial was closely followed by a Geneva dispatch saying that Nicholas had been executted by the Bolsheviki after a trial at Yekaterinburg.  This report seemed to be confirmed by advices to Washington from Stockholm.

The next report was what purported to be an intercepted wireless message from M. Tchicherin the Bolshevik foreign minister, in which it was stated that Nicholas was dead.  Still another report was to the effect that he had been bayonetted by a guard while being taken from Yekaterinburg to Perm.  Of all these reports there was no direct confirmation.

There seemingly is no question that yesterday's dispatch is authentic.  It comes in the form of a Russian wireless dispatch, and as the wireless plants of Russia are under the control of the Bolsheviki, it appears that it is an official version of the death of the former Emperor." Pg 1, cont on pg 8


Like I said,  23 Dec. 1918 was "five months" later,  OLD NEWS, so why print old news and use it was a front page headline???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on July 18, 2005, 01:01:51 PM
Alexei reported dead by NY Times on July 25, 1918. "Succombed to exposure shortly after his father's death". August 26, 1918: EX-CZAR'S SON SHOT, RUSSIAN RRINCE SAYS; Bolsheviki Killed Him As Boy Wept When Told of His Father's Execution.

Sept. 6, 1918: Madrid, Sept. 5. A dispatch was received here from London reporting the assassination of the former Russian Empress and her daughters...

Sept. 12, 1918: "Killing of Ex-Czar's Family by Bolsheviki Again Reported"

That's why. Oh, and Ackerman's first such story was filed Nov. 21, 1918, but not printed until Nov. 28.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on July 18, 2005, 01:05:16 PM
Quote
Alexei reported dead by NY Times on July 25, 1918. "Succombed to exposure shortly after his father's death". August 26, 1918: EX-CZAR'S SON SHOT, RUSSIAN RRINCE SAYS; Bolsheviki Killed Him As Boy Wept When Told of His Father's Execution.

Sept. 6, 1918: Madrid, Sept. 5. A dispatch was received here from London reporting the assassination of the former Russian Empress and her daughters...

Sept. 12, 1918: "Killing of Ex-Czar's Family by Bolsheviki Again Reported"

That's why.


Isn't it interesting that the delay in reporting the execution of the rest of the family.  I wonder if the delay could have been due to the fact that the Bolsheviks didn't want to be seen as inhumane by foreign governments or they were not sure of what type of backlash the execution of AF & daughters would bring?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on July 18, 2005, 01:11:45 PM
Michael,
This was answered elsewhere. The main reason was twofold. First, the Germans were negotiating with the Bolsheviks at the time, and has expressly demanded the safety of "all princesses of German blood" meaning Alexandra and the GDs. So when the Ekaterinburg soviet killed them, Moscow had to pretend they were all still fine. Secondly, there was indeed much international demand for their safety. The King of Spain was also trying to negotiate with Moscow for the safe release of Alexandra and the girls. To save face, Moscow issued the fake story.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 18, 2005, 01:21:08 PM
Interesting....but why so MANY fake stories?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Abby on July 18, 2005, 03:59:16 PM
Quote


Parfen Domnin was alleged to have been Terenty Chemodurov, the valet dismissed from service by Nicholas shortly after arrival in Ekaterinburg.  Chemodurov was quite elderly at this time, and had fallen ill, though some accounts claim that his illness was the on-set of some form or other of senility.

On leaving the Ipatiev House, Chemodurov was taken to the city hospital, where he was lodged in a regular ward, rather than the prison ward -- thus he escaped the notice of the Ural Bolsheviks and was not taken to Perm and later murdered like other members of the Imperial Suite and Household.

Chemodurov was replaced in the Ipatiev House by Alexei Trupp.

Following the murders and the fall of Ekaterinburg to the White Forces, Chemodurov left the hospital and provided some assistance to the first investigators.  Later, he returned to Tobolsk, where his wife was living, and he died there in 1920.



Thats right ! Chemodurov....the name escaped me. Thank you for that, Penny.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on July 18, 2005, 04:14:34 PM
Here is the first paragraph of the November 28 Ackerman story EKATERINBURG, Russia, Nov. 21.--Did the Bolsheviki execute the Czar and his family? Here at Ekaterinburg I have been through the house where he is supposed to have been killed, and have talked with many inhabitants and foreigners. None possessed proof that the family were executed.

Further the article goes on to say that while bullet holes were found in the basement, and no one ever saw any of the IF after July 16, on July 20 ONE and only one person in Ekaterinburg said "the Czar and his family were hiding in an inner room" of the Ipatiev House. He then couples this one report with the "fact" that there were no bodies found or other "specific evidence" of their murder to be the ENTIRE basis for his belief that they ALL survived.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on July 18, 2005, 08:31:59 PM
Quote
Interesting....but why so MANY fake stories?

To distract and confuse!
If noone was sure what was true and what was a rumour, then noone would be able to make a definative claim to the "throne" or to rally forces around one individual figure ...
The daughter were alive but missing/ the whole family was sent abroad/ The Widowed Tsaria was put on a train/The Tsar was shot/Alexie was wounded/ The family members are all in various remote locations...

Brilliant really.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 18, 2005, 08:48:12 PM
Were you ever scared and it forced you to lie?

And the lie took on insane proportions?

I learned my lesson early on in life.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 18, 2005, 10:10:12 PM
sure.  But it didn't result in a lot of people I didn't know also telling lies......
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 18, 2005, 11:28:48 PM
So all we really know for sure is that Nicholas, Alexandra, Olg, Tatiana and either Marie (or some would say Anastascia) were killed. That they were all buried together.
But do we know for sure that it all happened in the cellar? Do we know for sure that Alex and her daughters were killed when Nicholas was killed? I know some of you are going to answer yes to those questions, which is cool. But since this is a thread about survivor theories, I figure it is ok to discuss theories. That's all they are...theories.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 18, 2005, 11:33:49 PM
THe only hard and cold, irrefutable facts are, indeed, Lexi, that N, A and 3 of their daughters were killed by gunshots and ended up in the same grave...

There is evidence that they were all shot together in the semi-basement room.  There is evidence to the contrary.

I wish Bear, who is the ultimate fact-reminder, would list the various stories about how the family died, all in one post.  <hint hint!>
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: JonC on July 19, 2005, 10:24:27 AM
Quote
THe only hard and cold, irrefutable facts are, indeed, Lexi, that N, A and 3 of their daughters were killed by gunshots and ended up in the same grave...

There is evidence that they were all shot together in the semi-basement room.  There is evidence to the contrary.

I wish Bear, who is the ultimate fact-reminder, would list the various stories about how the family died, all in one post.  <hint hint!>


Hi Finelly.

I can't leave it said that way, I'm sorry! The jury, that's been paid off by me, is still out on this issue.

When one considers how the 'bones' were burried, the grave site found several times, the skull(s) taken on a trip(s) to Paris and stashed under the bed for years, the contaminated evidence, the poor science known at that time the MtDNA profiles were taken, the accusation that fresh blood was added to fill in missing DNA positions...on and on...!

The question still comes up in anyone's mind. Who belonged to those bones? Was it the industrialist's family who fit the description of the Romanovs who did live in that area?

Nuclear testing showed a 'family was burried there but NOT the IDENTITY of that family. Such testing is hard to fabricate since one needs many related samples to all be in the same place. So was it the industrialist's family?

MtDNA on the other hand, as per Dr. Melton, can very easily be manipulated since the two tests are independent of each other and performed from separate samples. MtDNA tells us who they were.

Did the said scientists manipulate the findings? I hope not and there is no evidence they intended to do so BUT since these tests were done in 1992 or so when testing was primitive compared to today's advancements why can't they be performed again by different, reputable organisations who are not part of a proffessional mutual admiration society group.

Why hasn't the Gill team released the MtDNA studies on all the characters? Why hasn't Dr. Ginther released his studies on the Romanovs?

If they do perform the MtDNA tests again I hope that the use Dr. Lee the famed pathologist who would insist on a preserved environment and a re- examination of the bones with skull reconstruction to find out if they even are the Romanovs. Oh! I forgot. The skulls were so smashed in that non of them could be identified and so someone read the tea leaves and said they belonged to the Romanovs..I see!

Maybe that's how Dr. Levine, the dental expert, who was responsible to determine identity by examining the teeth found or 'given' to him from the site.

When I asked him, by phone while he was at his office at the NY State labs in Albany, how did he determine the teeth to be from the Romanovs? Since their dental records have never been found. His answer was that since some of the fillings were Platinum the only people who could afford them must have been the Romanovs!

When I asked him if he new that there was an industrialist family living in that area, who could possibly afford such fillings, who also had disappeared. His reply was no that he didn't know and if he had known he would not have concluded the teeth to be Romanov! Bingo!

Such is the extent and the sum of the studies done on the so-called 'Romanov bones'. Personally I don't understand how people could accept such 'expert' science. JonC.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on July 19, 2005, 10:50:02 AM
Quote


When one considers how the 'bones' were burried, the grave site found several times, the skull(s) taken on a trip(s) to Paris and stashed under the bed for years, the contaminated evidence, the poor science known at that time the MtDNA profiles were taken, the accusation that fresh blood was added to fill in missing DNA positions...on and on...!


 Nuclear testing showed a 'family was burried there but NOT the IDENTITY of that family. Such testing is hard to fabricate since one needs many related samples to all be in the same place. So was it the industrialist's family?

 MtDNA on the other hand, as per Dr. Melton, can very easily be manipulated since the two tests are independent of each other and performed from separate samples. MtDNA tells us who they were.

Did the said scientists manipulate the findings? I hope not and there is no evidence they intended to do so BUT since these tests were done in 1992 or so when testing was primitive compared to today's advancements why can't they be performed again by different, reputable organisations who are not part of a proffessional mutual admiration society group.



I can not let "disinformation" go here. PLEASE do the research before you make such "sweeping" statements. Per Dr. Melton, the mtDNA work done then is EXACTLY the same as today. The work done then was NOT "poor science" in fact, it set the scientific standard which remains today and these tests are cited today by peer review journals as ACCURATE and reliable.

PER Dr. Melton, NO "fresh blood" was added by any of the teams working independantly of each other, who all got the same results.

AND, don't forget, the heteroplasmy of Nicholas II was confirmed later by the testing on his brother George and found to match PRECISELY. So, we DO know that Nicholas II was in the grave.

and, I got this straight from Dr. Melton personally "The reason that the tests are not being re done is THAT THERE IS NO REASON TO. they are as reliable today as they where then. (emphasis added).  If you don't believe me, go call her yourself.

FA setting the record straight.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: JonC on July 19, 2005, 12:29:51 PM
Quote


PER Dr. Melton, NO "fresh blood" was added by any of the teams working independantly of each other, who all got the same results.

AND, don't forget, the heteroplasmy of Nicholas II was confirmed later by the testing on his brother George and found to match PRECISELY. So, we DO know that Nicholas II was in the grave.

and, I got this straight from Dr. Melton personally "The reason that the tests are not being re done is THAT THERE IS NO REASON TO. they are as reliable today as they where then. (emphasis added).  If you don't believe me, go call her yourself.

FA setting the record straight.



A couple of points here.

With all due respect to you FA and to Dr. Melton, whom I admire very much, the so-called 'record' couldn't be more obtuse since its sharpness is lost in the way the 'evidence', the 'bones', were identified, examined, manipulated and handled which would make any self respecting scientist then and now cringe!

Dr. Melton has never mentioned to any of my associates that she knew, personally, that fresh blood was not added to the samples.

She may have expressed her faith in her collegium of professionals that no fresh blood was added but she wasn't there when the Russian Government authorities collected all the material and dispensed it to the differrent groups doing the studies.

I have some notes on the ' heteroplasmy' issue. I believe it was either Greg King's views expressed on the Peter Kurth site or Shay McNeal who wrote that this heteroplasmy was an invention to try and explain why there was no match for Nicholas.( Please excuse me if I got this wrong) I have to check it.

Greg King does mention on the Peter Kurth site that the scientific methods then were almost archane compared to those of today. Specifically concerning the number of STR's obtained then were about six(6) compared to today's twenty-two (22) or more thus giving a better result.

Also we would be less in need of 'filling in' the missing sections of an old and irrecoverable DNA strand today than geneticists would have been then.

It is my impression( just my belief) because of the above that the scientists filled in the missing sections of the DNA strand with sections which matched the 'historically' known family ties not maliciously but to achieve the 'expected' result. Much like Dr. Levine's 'Platinum teeth' must belong to the Romanovs because they're expensive conclusion. It clearly is not over yet. JonC.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on July 19, 2005, 12:35:42 PM
I won't hold my breath.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on July 19, 2005, 12:55:17 PM
    About all the posible survivor theories...
Well, sometimes it's a 'lie' (disinformation) and sometimes it's a story that you heard that seems plausible ...an urban legend or a FOAF (friend of a friend) story that can take on a life of its own!

  Regarding the examination of the bones, I will take the information presented byy the FA as more credible than the 'tampered' theory ...
A family of merchants (?) with the same dna/the same number of non related companions/ the same height/ weight/ teeth as  N, A, three daughters and family attendants?

I doubt it...

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: JonC on July 19, 2005, 02:11:01 PM
rskkiya,

I read your quote and want to add, if I may, that;

'If you speak the truth heaven would stand firm but hell would be confirmed.'

Where did you get your little anecdote?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 19, 2005, 05:41:31 PM
Quote
THe only hard and cold, irrefutable facts are, indeed, Lexi, that N, A and 3 of their daughters were killed by gunshots and ended up in the same grave...

There is evidence that they were all shot together in the semi-basement room.  There is evidence to the contrary.

I wish Bear, who is the ultimate fact-reminder, would list the various stories about how the family died, all in one post.  <hint hint!>


Be careful what you ask for  ;)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 19, 2005, 07:37:11 PM
That would be cool Bear.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on July 19, 2005, 07:50:04 PM
Quote
rskkiya,

I read your quote and want to add, if I may, that;

'If you speak the truth heaven would stand firm but hell would be confirmed.'

Where did you get your little anecdote?


I thought it up- but no doubt wiser souls than mine may have said it....
I cannot comment on heaven/hell as I don't believe in them. By heavens I wished to imply the 'sky falling' (a la Chicken Little?) or the truth transending all other notions: a la Gallaleo's "nevertheless they (the planets) move" comment...  

ok?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Donielle on July 19, 2005, 08:58:44 PM
After reading What Jon C. has stated,I have one question.Are his statements credible?The answer I would give is a resounding ,yes.There was evidence mishandled and scattered.The crime scene was destroyed.The burial site contaminated beyond reason.If that is indeed ,where the bodies were buried at all.There is a margin,a large margin of doubt here.I for one would like to believe the remains have been found and that they are indeed the remains of The Romanov family.However,we must acknowledge that we are relying on the stories of their captors, and assassins for the truth. :-/
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on July 20, 2005, 11:42:17 AM
Donielle
Why should they lie about this?
Why should we believe evidence that is not reliable if it comes from a faithful supporter simply because it comes from a supporter?
   Yes the exhumation was not perfect. Nevertheless the notion of a merchant family being executed - a family that PERFECTLY matched all the requirements- age/height/weight/gender of members of the IF is a bit contrived ...
    I do not think that even with the faulty exhumation process that there was a 'conspiracy' to doctor evidence ...if so why not just not exhume any bones at all!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on July 20, 2005, 11:47:31 AM
The MAJOR problem with the "mis handling" theory is  simply this. IF there was some purported "contamination" HOW was it contaminated with mtDNA that EXACTLY matched the Victoria's daughters line AND with DNA containing a VERY rare heteroplasmy exactly found in both the Nicholas II remains AND his brother George?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Donielle on July 20, 2005, 11:58:04 AM
Good points Rssk and F.A.Very , good points.-D
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Donielle on July 20, 2005, 12:10:20 PM
Quote
The MAJOR problem with the "mis handling" theory is  simply this. IF there was some purported "contamination" HOW was it contaminated with mtDNA that EXACTLY matched the Victoria's daughters line AND with DNA containing a VERY rare heteroplasmy exactly found in both the Nicholas II remains AND his brother George?
This is the most compelling evidence,in my opinion as well.How can THIS evidence be refuted?In all fairness ,the most skilled forensic scientists, conducted these tests,correct?Truthfully,I would be a fool to suggest I know more than they do, in this field.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 20, 2005, 12:35:31 PM
Not to mention the fact that Peter Gill, et al, extracted this DNA from samples that came from deep inside the bones. This is common practice in forensic science, used precisely for the purpose of avoiding contamination. If you would like to read more about this, check out the DNA RESOURCEs thread...

Such theories as the above are invented by people who are desperate to put doubt into the science that positively identified these bones (the identity of which is now without any shadow of a doubt) and will basically say anything in order to do that... Trouble is, they are barking up the wrong tree.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on July 20, 2005, 01:00:05 PM
AND not to mention, as I said earlier:
Per Dr. Melton, the mtDNA work done then is EXACTLY the same as today. The work done then was NOT "poor science" in fact, it set the scientific standard which remains today and these tests are cited today by peer review journals as ACCURATE and reliable. The experts who understand this science far better, I think, than anyone who posts here (no offense to the AMAZING talents of Helen A., please ;D)
is, the reason they have not done a new set of tests is that there is NO NEED to re-test as the original results are scientifically valid and reliable. Period.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 20, 2005, 01:10:26 PM
Quote
Not to mention the fact that Peter Gill, et al, extracted this DNA from samples that came from deep inside the bones. This is common practice in forensic science, used precisely for the purpose of avoiding contamination. If you would like to read more about this, check out the DNA RESOURCEs thread...

Such theories as the above are invented by people who are desperate to put doubt into the science that positively identified these bones (the identity of which is now without any shadow of a doubt) and will basically say anything in order to do that... Trouble is, they are barking up the wrong tree.


Helen,
I don't agree: "Such theories as the above are invented by people who are desperate to put doubt...."
I love discussing the survivor theories. With this thread, I have read and re read different books to present some of the theories that have been recorded. The theories are part of the history of the whole thing. Disussion theories is just that. There were theories, then and now. It's part of the story. I am not trying to cast doubt and I would not say anything to make others doubt. I do not think the DNA was contaminated...or that the DNA experts pulled a fast one...
But this thread was supposed to be a place where we could discuss the different theories or plots...Does that lead to what if? Indeed. Does that, at times, disgress, indeed. That is all part of discussion and debate. Am I barking up the wrong three because I like discussing survivor theories/plots to save the IF. I am not. Does that mean I am desperate to cast doubt? No. Does that mean I don't believe the DNA results, it does not. Would I like to think that they did survive? Yes.
I just thought this would be a post where we could discuss the theories without everyone jumping in to prove them wrong. Obviously, I was mistaken.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 20, 2005, 01:28:29 PM
Quote

Helen,
I don't agree: "Such theories as the above are invented by people who are desperate to put doubt...."
I love discussing the survivor theories. With this thread, I have read and re read different books to present some of the theories that have been recorded. The theories are part of the history of the whole thing. Disussion theories is just that. There were theories, then and now. It's part of the story. I am not trying to cast doubt and I would not say anything to make others doubt. I do not think the DNA was contaminated...or that the DNA experts pulled a fast one...
But this thread was supposed to be a place where we could discuss the different theories or plots...Does that lead to what if? Indeed. Does that, at times, disgress, indeed. That is all part of discussion and debate. Am I barking up the wrong three because I like discussing survivor theories/plots to save the IF. I am not. Does that mean I am desperate to cast doubt? No. Does that mean I don't believe the DNA results, it does not. Would I like to think that they did survive? Yes.
I just thought this would be a post where we could discuss the theories without everyone jumping in to prove them wrong. Obviously, I was mistaken.


Lexi, I am sorry, I must not have made myself clear. By "such theories as above" I was referring only to the theory that "fresh" DNA was sprayed onto the bones found in Ekaterinburg in order to prove them not to be those belonging to the IF. I was not talking about the theories that are being discussed here of possible survivors.
Helen
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 20, 2005, 01:38:46 PM
Thank you Helen. I apologize, I misunderstood your post. Glad we cleared it up :)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2005, 01:39:52 PM
Quote

Helen,
I don't agree: "Such theories as the above are invented by people who are desperate to put doubt...."
I love discussing the survivor theories. With this thread, I have read and re read different books to present some of the theories that have been recorded. The theories are part of the history of the whole thing. Disussion theories is just that. There were theories, then and now. It's part of the story. I am not trying to cast doubt and I would not say anything to make others doubt. I do not think the DNA was contaminated...or that the DNA experts pulled a fast one...
But this thread was supposed to be a place where we could discuss the different theories or plots...Does that lead to what if? Indeed. Does that, at times, disgress, indeed. That is all part of discussion and debate. Am I barking up the wrong three because I like discussing survivor theories/plots to save the IF. I am not. Does that mean I am desperate to cast doubt? No. Does that mean I don't believe the DNA results, it does not. Would I like to think that they did survive? Yes.
I just thought this would be a post where we could discuss the theories without everyone jumping in to prove them wrong. Obviously, I was mistaken.


I agree.

Quote
So all we really know for sure is that Nicholas, Alexandra, Olg, Tatiana and either Marie (or some would say Anastascia) were killed. That they were all buried together.
But do we know for sure that it all happened in the cellar? Do we know for sure that Alex and her daughters were killed when Nicholas was killed? I know some of you are going to answer yes to those questions, which is cool. But since this is a thread about survivor theories, I figure it is ok to discuss theories. That's all they are...theories.


I agree.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 20, 2005, 03:13:30 PM
For me, I think the variety of myths, legends, facts and theories surrounding the final chapter are fascinating, and I could think, read and talk about them forever, not because any or all or only one of them are true, but because the vagueness is part of the mystery.

On the other hand, there's really not much for me to say about the idea that someone sprayed dna or otherwise implanted dna on the bodies......that, to me, is as far-fetched as the idea that the Mother Ship came down and took Anastasia/Maria and Alexei and transported them to Planet Uggah Buggah, where they now reign happily over the Oompa Loompahs.

HOWEVER........if there was some EVIDENCE not only of MOTIVE but of OPPORTUNITY to contaminate the samples, well, that would pique my interest.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2005, 10:26:52 PM
Quote
...[in part]...
Donielle
 Why should they lie about this?
 Why should we believe evidence that is not reliable if it comes from a faithful supporter simply because it comes from a supporter?
....


Why would they lie about the execution?  Two of Nicholas II's children are missing.  A cover-up story was needed.

Why should we believe the evidence is not reliable?  Two of Nicholas II's children are missing but we're told that they were buried near the mass grave and apparently they were not.  The cover-up story has been proven to be just that, a cover-up story.

So, did two of Nicholas II's children escape?



AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on July 21, 2005, 08:47:57 AM
Dear Bear,

WHY can not the "cover up" story be a "cover up" for the murder of the ENTIRE family instead of the just the Tsar? There is no doubt that this occurred (see the NY Times articles of the period).  I think when you look at the chronology this is self-evident. NO ONE KNEW that two bodies were missing for years, so why create the story from day 1?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 21, 2005, 10:39:41 AM
So,  why would I think anyone knew someone escaped after the 16th of July 1918?

It seems there were eyewitnesses who were interviewed who give us the kind of information which indicate what they heard and saw which tells us someone did escape.  See the thread on testimonies sighting the IF after 16 July 1918 for the sources.

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1091994509;start=0#0

There was a person who believed they saw  Alexei being found and placed in a carriage.

There are people who claim their trains were stopped and searched for Alexei.

There are people who claim they saw Reds searching woods for Anastasia.

There are people who claim they saw Alexandera and three of her daughters being held in Perm.

What is interesting, these sightings were not just individual witnesses but often there were more than one person seeing the same event.

The two names often mention were Anastasia and Alexei.  And these are the two bodies missing from the mass grave.

Several of these  eye witnesses were people who were connected to the CHEKA of men involved as well as  people who were foreigners and had no connections....

Even the testimony of the two women who claimed to have seen Alexandera in Perm voiced they saw only three daughters not four daughters.

So convinced was some of the early investigators that there were surviviors that a search began for interviewing possible claimants.

Dr. Uktin's testimony carried him all the way to Berlin to testify in AA's trial.  Why?  He claimed he had treated Anastasia after the 16th of July 1918.

Several of the early investigators believed the scene of execution were staged.

Remember, these particular investigators were there just days later.  Days.  Not weeks.  Not months.  Not years.  Days later.

All this said,  I think it is necessary to discuss various theories of possible survivors because the two bodies missing are the two most often mention by those eye witnesses mention in their testimonies.

I am not sure why we need to continue to discuss why some of us would like to discuss possible survivors when this thread is about theories.   I suggest we get back to these theories.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tasha_R on July 21, 2005, 10:46:28 AM
I would like to offer my support for Bear's request here.  I happen to agree with her.  There were far too many possible "sightings" from the very beginning, alerts to search out possible escapees, and a willingness to believe on the royal family's part (enough of which to have some come and look for themselves) to simply dismiss the possibility.

Sincere regards,
Tasha
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 21, 2005, 10:48:53 AM
I just had the most brilliant idea.......

How about if those people who want to continue to discuss survivor theories do so right here on this thread....

and people who do NOT want to discuss survivor theories or who do NOT believe there were survivors and don't want to hear about it stay AWAY and post elsewhere!

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on July 21, 2005, 12:30:53 PM
Quote
I just had the most brilliant idea.......


and people who do NOT want to discuss survivor theories or who do NOT believe there were survivors and don't want to hear about it stay AWAY and post elsewhere!

stay AWAY?
Thats hardly 'polite' or 'civil' Finelly... We are not 'calling names' or insulting each other ...why will you not consider letting some skeptics remain?  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 21, 2005, 12:36:52 PM
Oh, skeptics are great!  Keep us on our toes!

But people who keep complaining about the fact that we are having a discussion?  It's not rude to remind them that they don't have to be here......
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 21, 2005, 12:41:18 PM
Ignore ryskkiya and anyone elses  attempt to continue the avenue away from the discussion on the "survivor theories" which is the topic.

So, why did Yurovsky go into such details about the buriel of the two missing bodies?  And remember  he misidentified the female which creates even more doubt in my mind.   And, why did he tell us where they were buried near the mass grave, if they were not.  Cover-up.  Yep.  And, not a good cover-up story.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on July 21, 2005, 12:50:29 PM
thank you agrbear.... you are always so polite.

Ok, about Yurofsky  - it is posible that - considering the fact that it took over 72 hours to execute and eventually dispose of the bodies (FOTR), and that he seems to have not slept in that time, that he may have simply gotten things mixed up, and that his recollection of the event changed gradually over the years...

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 21, 2005, 01:09:32 PM
72 hours is a mighty long time isn't it?  Guess he forgot to mention he might have slept through some of the events and really didn't know everything that occured.  Then there is Ermakov whom we are told was too drunk to remember everything.  

AGRBear

PS:

Sorry if I offended ryskkiya.

I'm trying to keep us on the topic.





Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on July 21, 2005, 01:12:15 PM
Did Ermakov leave a us a 'version' that was different from Yurofsky's? Update me bear please -I thought it was Yurofsky's story here.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 21, 2005, 03:07:44 PM
Over under Questions About the Testimony of Yurovsky and Others  I have the following:

Quote
... [ in part]....

I think Pavel Medvedev was the first of the group of executioners who was interviewed by the Whites from 21-22 Feb. 1919.  He stated he wasn't part of the shooting because he had been sent out of the room.  



A different story.  Yep, you could say it was.

For his testimony and others,  take a look and maybe some of your questions have been asked and debated.

Meanwhile,  I'm trying to come up with a topic where we can compare the testimonies side by side in some kind of Timeline.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 21, 2005, 06:46:05 PM
Quote
72 hours is a mighty long time isn't it?  Guess he forgot to mention he might have slept through some of the events and really didn't know everything that occured.  Then there is Ermakov whom we are told was too drunk to remember everything.  

AGRBear

PS:

Sorry if I offended ryskkiya.

 I'm trying to keep us on the topic.






I don't think we know for sure that he went 72 hours without sleep. One witnessed testified that after the exectution, Yurocsky went back to the office. And his own testimony changed from the 1920 note at the conference in 1934.
In 1920 he said he left the mine at 10 or 11 a.m. In 1934, he says he did not leave the mine until 2 p.m.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 21, 2005, 07:22:23 PM
"The Fate of the Romanovs" has probably the best-researched description what probably transpired, but also the various accounts recorded by the participants.

There are all kinds of discrepencies.  Lots of people were exhausted, drunk, unclear on what was going on.  Stories changed over the years.  

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 21, 2005, 09:13:54 PM
One theory, discussed in The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar, is that The Hudson Bay Company was consrutcting a house in Murmansk that was to be a safe house for the IF. The IF apparently had a floor plan at the house that was smuggled out. According to Shay, a copy was among Gibbes' paper, (PP.57-59 McNeal) She sites as her source "Trewin, J.C. Tutor to the Tsarevich: an Intimate Portrait of the Last Days of the Romanov Family," Compiled from the Papers of Charles Sidny Gibbes, Macmillian, London, 1975 pp 88-91.
I was wondering in anyone can add anything to this theory. I wonder what happened to the house, is it still there etc.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Lanie on July 21, 2005, 09:46:36 PM
Quote
One theory, discussed in The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar, is that The Hudson Bay Company was consrutcting a house in Murmansk that was to be a safe house for the IF. The IF apparently had a floor plan at the house that was smuggled out. According to Shay, a copy was among Gibbes' paper, (PP.57-59 McNeal) She sites as her source "Trewin, J.C. Tutor to the Tsarevich: an Intimate Portrait of the Last Days of the Romanov Family," Compiled from the Papers of Charles Sidny Gibbes, Macmillian, London, 1975 pp 88-91.
I was wondering in anyone can add anything to this theory. I wonder what happened to the house, is it still there etc.


The plan she uses as her "source" is of the Governor's House in Tobolsk. :P
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 21, 2005, 10:03:32 PM
thank you Lanie. I must have misinterperted that. My apologies. I still wonder about Murmansk.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 21, 2005, 11:24:01 PM
Started, as suggested, a thead dealing with the various testimonies and their differences as well as their similarities through a Timeline.

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1121980360

This should pull in the questions about Yurovsky being awake for 72 hours and other facts, questions and debates.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 21, 2005, 11:48:59 PM
Quote
The main reasons for the Allied intervention in North Russia and Siberia were a desire to keep Russia in the war, fear of Bolshevik domination, and the possibility of German submarine bases being established in North Russia.  Allied military stores falling into the hands of the "Reds" was also a concern.  In May 1918, the old cruiser USS OLYMPIA (Admiral Dewey's flagship at the Battle of Manila Bay, 1898) arrived in Murmansk to assist British forces already there (Royal Navy and Royal Marine Light Infantry).  Sailors from the OLYMPIA were engaged in firefights with Bolsheviks south of Archangel.  They were eventually joined by elements from the American 85th Division (339th Infantry Regiment, 1st Bn 310th Engineers, 337th Field Hospital and the 337th Ambulance Company).  The force would eventually number 5500 men.  The troops were withdrawn in June 1919 after suffering numerous casualties from combat and disease.  The 31st Infantry Regiment served in Siberia (Vladivostok) alongside troops from Britain, France and Japan.

It is interesting to note that the bulk of American infantry were armed with the Russian Moisin-Nagant 7.62 rifle, large quantities of which were manufactured by the Remington and Westinghouse companies in the United States for the Imperial government.  British Lewis guns and Vickers machine guns were also used.

Coldstream



>> In May 1918, the old cruiser USS OLYMPIA (Admiral Dewey's flagship at the Battle of Manila Bay, 1898) arrived in Murmansk to assist British forces already there (Royal Navy and Royal Marine Light Infantry).<<

Tells us what was going on in and around Murmansk so it seems that a "safe house" for someone could be made available.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 21, 2005, 11:57:14 PM
Quote
The mysterious house near Murmansk was built for a  naval officer whose ship was part of the British fleet involved in the northern contingent of  countries who came to the aid of the Whites.  Oddly, his family had seven members.  He wished to bring his family to this post anticipating a longer stay than was actually the case.  It was either never lived in or  was lived in only briefly.  So much for the Czar's House and, co-incidentally, so much for the claptrap about Rescuing the Czar.  A work of fiction as attested to by its two authors in their voluminous correspondence 1919-1921 which is selectively quoted by McNeal to bolster her case.  E


Quote
I would be delighted to see Elizaveta's source for the Naval Officer with a family of seven.  I would find it hard to think of a worse place for anyone to wish to take their family at any time.

On the other hand the reference to the house being connected to the Royal family comes from British National Archives (Public Record Office) Admiralty File ADM137/1714 p138 which reads (in part):

"Following received via Christiana from Naval Attache Petrograd for SNO Murmansk begins:

"I have received from Mr Browd on behalf of the Murmansk Scientific Industrial Coy. the offer of the building to be erected on the Dived Company's land near the British Consulate Murmansk FORMERLY INTENDED FOR THE LATE CZAR" (my capitalisation).

The telegram is dated 10th August 1918.  I have a copy of it on my desk.  I stumbled upon it about 10 years ago and it has been partly responsible for convincing me that there was more going on than is commonly realised.

This is a Royal Naval telegram addressed to the Senior Naval Officer at Murmansk and comes from the British Naval Attache at Petrograd, Francis Cromie, a man plotting the overthrow of Lenin & Co and sabotage of the Baltic Fleet.  This telegram is not a mistake.

Phil Tomaselli


Quote
Phil,

As to your comments I located the Times of London Review:#11
Sunday Times (UK)
3 June 2001
Book Review
Bones of contention
By John Crossland


THE PLOTS TO RESCUE THE TSAR:
The Truth behind the Disappearance of the Romanovs
by Shay McNeal


On a humid July night in 1918, the former imperial family of Russia, together with their servants, were ushered into a basement room of a mansion in Siberia. The door burst open to reveal 11 assassins, one for each victim.
Their commander, Yacov Yurovsky, read out the death sentence and a stunned tsar had time only to plead, "Why, oh why?" before a shell from Yurovsky's
Colt spun him off his feet, split seconds before the assassins' fusillade turned his family into bloody, broken marionettes.

Such has been the generally accepted version of the end of the Romanovs, popularised by the film Nicholas and Alexandra, and enshrined in the Russian official inquiry into the putative Imperial remains found in a
Siberian forest in 1979, secretly reburied and unearthed again in 1991.

Doubts, however, have always remained about the massacre. When the Bolsheviks first proclaimed, within days of the alleged shootings, that they had executed Nicholas II, the announcement was greeted by a wave of scepticism - not least because the tsar's wife and children were specifically excluded from the death notices. Investigations in the 1970s by two BBC
journalists, Anthony Summers and Tom Mangold, asked further questions, in particular of the Sokolov Report, the White Russians' forensic exercise in 1919 which has
formed the basis for the massacre theory. Their powerful case, argued In The File on the Tsar (1976), found much of the evidence implausible.
But Summers and Mangold received a setback with the publication of the Yeltsin Commission's findings in 1991 and with the unmasking of Anna Anderson, the Anastasia claimant, as a fake.

Now Shay McNeal provides a further twist to this inscrutable tale. An American former political consultant turned archival researcher, McNeal was not satisfied with the 1991 commission's verdict, and believed that
Yeltsin had merely wished to close a sordid chapter in Russian history, ensuring the DNA and forensic evidence fitted a politically correct solution. Reopening
the Summers and Mangold line of inquiry, McNeal has drawn on newly declassified files in American and Russian archives in an attempt to prove the existence of a plot (or plots) to rescue the imperial family.


To do that, she needed to discredit the critical scientific tests that were the cornerstone of the 1991 Commission's argument for closing the case on the
Romanovs. McNeal cites an American expert who claims that the clinching evidence, the mtDNA match of the Duke of Edinburgh with the tsarina Alexandra and her children, could not be accepted as proof of identity. It is a claim, incidentally, that Home Office forensic scientists vigorously deny, although they do concede that DNA is never taken as conclusive evidence by itself, but
in conjunction with other tests on the bones, preferably soon after exhumation. These, McNeal asserts, were not done and a question persists about the Russians' handling of the material.

So, a reasonable doubt remains over whether there was a massacre. What case does McNeal make, then, for the family's survival? Her trawl of American Secret Service documents has revealed a string of incidents and relationships between shadowy individuals, apparently innocuous in themselves but which
taken together point to an international plot to save the tsar and dish Bolshevism.

Her important new lead on the Romanov mystery has come from the Hudson Bay Company records, which show a strange obsession among Allied intelligence
operatives with building a luxurious house in Murmansk for seven (the family's number). In June 1918 a company trouble-shooter also working for MI6, and Jonas Lied, a Norwegian Arctic shipping merchant, set up a rescue bid on orders from "C" (Britain's Secret Service head), aimed at spiriting the family up the Siberian river system, then to Murmansk and finally
to England in a motor torpedo boat. That rescue attempt apparently misfired because the "snatch" by their Russian confederates was anticipated by
the local Soviet.

Meanwhile, says McNeal, Sidney Reilly, "the Ace of Spies", was busy arranging a £500,000 ransom to Lenin for the family - bidding against the Kaiser. The most incredible claim ever made for the tsar's escape was in a book, Rescuing the Czar, published in a limited edition in San Francisco in 1920 and withdrawn from circulation almost immediately due to "pressure from on high"
(the British Library has a copy). Although it has hitherto been dismissed as pure fantasy (with its claim that the Romanovs were smuggled out of their prison, via a secret tunnel, to the British consulate across the
street, and thence to Shanghai, via Tibet, ending up with assumed identities in Ceylon) McNeal has applied some lateral thinking to the thesis and discovered
that there was more to it than anyone has realised. She says, "it mirrors many events that we now know had really taken place but which in 1920 could only have been known of by someone who was on the ground at the time".

But does her fascinating search, which includes mysterious Tibetan lamas, disappearing Yangtze gunboats and secret missions by George V's cousin
to Japan, lead us to the tsar? Unfortunately the trail peters out in Ceylon. For all her hard work (including proving that the "execution" Colt revolver was,
according to its serial number, at a Kentucky army barracks at the time), McNeal gets no closer to a definitive answer than anyone else. Perhaps Yacov
Yurovsky was right when he claimed that "the world will never know what we did with them!"

The greatest mystery of the 20th century remains unsolved.


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Donielle on July 22, 2005, 10:30:11 AM
Why would anyone admit to orchestrating the murders of unarmed men ,women ,and children,in a basement at 1:00 in the morning,if it were not true?Diaries found in the upstairs bedroom reveal last entries at this date.Evidence in the basement indicates massacre.Stories from the guards ,themselves tell the story.They had nothing to prove.All their belongings were left,even one of the family dogs(Joy).Why would they fabricate the story of the dead spaniel(Jemmy)?As much as anyone ,I would like to believe they may have survived,but in my heart,I know they did not.They were murdered at Impatiev house,in the basement,all of them.-D
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 22, 2005, 10:54:39 AM
Actually, I believe Nicholas stopped writing in his diary several days before the 17th.

The calendar in his bedroom, which had pages torn off each day, remained at a date 10 days earlier than the 17th.

There are discrepencies in testimony about the condition of the room in which the massacre allegedly took place.

We already know that some of the testimony about the removal and burial of the bodies is incorrect, to wit: the corpse of the dog Jemmy was not put in the mine shaft until much later, the bodies were not burned.

We know that many of the affidavits and statements by the participants differ as to what exactly happened during the shooting.

We know that the secret grave was not very secret and that, in fact, it had been opened several times before the "discovery".

I'm re-reading The Fate of the Romanovs and the description of the massacre there, which is based on all of the newly discovered reports and statements, plus the old info, seems to me to be reasonable.  On the other hand, I can also see that perhaps the Romanovs were killed at different times or places and then their bodies put together......
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 22, 2005, 11:00:29 AM
Poor Jemmy.

It's been proven that even Jemmy, the IF's dog,  was not killed on the night of 16th/17th.  Jemmy was  killed  more than 11 months later.
The estimated death was May to early June of 1919.

Summers and Mangold's book FILE ON THE TSAR was the first to discover this fact.  And, it's an important one.

By this time, we're not sure if the Reds planted the dog or it was the Whites who were just about to leave Ekaterinburg.

Remember, this thread is about theories  about surivors and since two bodies are missing,  this could have been possible if we haven't been told the truth and the stories we know were meant to cover-up the truth.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Donielle on July 22, 2005, 11:35:07 AM
 .Just the saddest story.So many theories so many rumours.The story of a possible escape to Ceylon IS compelling.Would there be evidence,in Ceylon to support this claim?I was under the impression that alixs'last diary entry was the night of the massacre.There are so many stories.I guess we are all picking and choosing the stories we personally feel are most palatable.Those of us who believe they may have survived are vehement in the defense of their research and theory.Those of us who believe they perished at Impatiev house,equally so.Some believe they all escaped,some believe only two may have survived.The theory they were buried together,another the women may have been removed only to be executed later and buried withthe others,another theory is two of the grndduchesses were cloistered as nuns'where they lived out the remaining years.....WOW.All I can say is please,please,please,let us refrain from saying anyone is NOT entitled to their personal belief, on this issue.When some one posts to the contrary of what we believe ,let us not immediately try to disprove what they believe in order to suit our personal agenda.ALL the evidence here ,is suspect in my opinion.I just know what my gut instinct tells me.That they all died.Although AA had me going right up till the end,that was a good one ;D
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 22, 2005, 12:07:43 PM
Yep, Alix made a diary entry the night of the massacre.

Unlike some, I don't have a particular theory about which I am adamant.  I enjoy exploring them all, though some I lend less credence to than others.

I don't think anyone made it to Ceylon or Hong Kong or wherever.  I do wonder what happened to the two missing people and/or their bodies.  I doubt Alexei could have survived anything at all.  From the descriptions of the night in question, based on the newly-discovered reports, I think it is possible that either Maria or Anastasia survived.

What puzzles me, actually, is this:  if one of the girls survived, would they have tried to contact family, or lived a secret life in quiet for fear of Bolshie assassins?  And if someone had survived and heard of AA, wouldn't that person have tried to contact AA in the hopes that she WAS a missing daughter?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on July 22, 2005, 12:55:40 PM
For what it's worth there is a photograph of what I believe to have been the "Tsar's House" at Murmansk in General Maynard's book "The Murmansk Venture" (Hodder & Stoughton) no date in my copy, opposite p80.

It is described as "General Headquarters at Murmansk" but I reckon it's the same place.  This does not, of course, actually prove anything other than a house existed in Murmansk......

Phil Tomaselli

ps No use asking if I can load the picture I am a technophobe and techno-incompetent.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Donielle on July 22, 2005, 01:08:42 PM
Good questions,There is also that puzzling story of the bodies of two children being burned separately,why?These remains at some point being held somewhere as holy relics.Once again,stories ,about stories,about stories.Layer upon Layer.It is fascinating,isn't it.As we get older(I'm 47)as the older ones'pass away we fall further away from ever finding truth.The most sensible route for me would be to go back to the initial reports and access the reports made immediately after the disappearance of the family.Also any statements made by the IF in exile.Is it true that Dowager Empress Marie always refused to believe they were dead?This is interesting Why?She believed Michael had been executed,correct?And Ella?Why would the family of her son Nicholas have been an exception?She was not senile or crazy.Could she have known more?Believing they were not dead,she still refused to meet with AA,this might mean she knew AA was an imposter,because she  knew where they really were?You see more  and more suppositions arise,ones we most probably will NEVER know the answers to.To many long years have passed and key figures passed away.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 22, 2005, 01:12:30 PM
Could that not simply mean that ANY government building anywhere technically "belonged" to the Tsar ? Not that he actually used the place ? I imagine this was especially the case in the far-away places, as a sort of way to remind all that everything belonged to him.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Donielle on July 22, 2005, 01:14:03 PM
Quote
For what it's worth there is a photograph of what I believe to have been the "Tsar's House" at Murmansk in General Maynard's book "The Murmansk Venture" (Hodder & Stoughton) no date in my copy, opposite p80.

It is described as "General Headquarters at Murmansk" but I reckon it's the same place.  This does not, of course, actually prove anything other than a house existed in Murmansk......

Phil Tomaselli

ps No use asking if I can load the picture I am a technophobe and techno-incompetent.  Sorry.
For what it's worth Phil metoo.I have books I am unable to scan from because I don't have the correct equipment.-D :)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 22, 2005, 02:20:56 PM
Any more theories guys????
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on July 22, 2005, 03:26:08 PM
Good point from Robert - there was a "Tsar's Hunting Lodge" south of Archangel that was occupied by British troops in 1919 that was part of an estate owned by Nicholas.  The British called it that so it is conceivable that the Murmansk house name is from the same kind of derivation.

The house in Murmansk was, however, in the process of being built in late 1917 (I have copies of some of the Hudson Bay Company records) and the British Admiralty telegram previously quoted says "formerly intended for the late Czar" which I read as meaning it wasn't actually his.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 22, 2005, 04:26:21 PM
Thank Phil, So can we assume that the house was being built as a safe house for the IF? Was that just until they could get out Russia?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 22, 2005, 04:47:50 PM
Personally, I do not think we can assume anything. LIke I mentioned, it was probably just another government building, given the applelation "Tsar's House" by the locals. Whether or not it was ever actually intended for use by him or any other "tsar" is  simply conjecture. Much the same as so many places are called "royal" all over the world even though no royal ever came near them.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on July 22, 2005, 05:36:37 PM
Quote
Yep, Alix made a diary entry the night of the massacre.

Unlike some, I don't have a particular theory about which I am adamant.  I enjoy exploring them all, though some I lend less credence to than others.

I don't think anyone made it to Ceylon or Hong Kong or wherever.  I do wonder what happened to the two missing people and/or their bodies.  I doubt Alexei could have survived anything at all.  From the descriptions of the night in question, based on the newly-discovered reports, I think it is possible that either Maria or Anastasia survived.

What puzzles me, actually, is this:  if one of the girls survived, would they have tried to contact family, or lived a secret life in quiet for fear of Bolshie assassins?  And if someone had survived and heard of AA, wouldn't that person have tried to contact AA in the hopes that she WAS a missing daughter?


We discussed this in one of the locked threads on this topic.

Two theories abound in my mind on this subject. At some point in the burial of the bodies, two were not accounted for, however Yurovsky and his men would have to play CYA on this, or they would be the next ones facing a firing squad.  So they lied and held the lie for over 50 years,  OR this was done deliberately to throw the White investigators off the track or trail.

I really do believe that Alexei could have NEVER survived the massacre.  He didn't have the shield of the jewels that the girls had.  His hemophilia, would have made it almost an impossibility for him to survive.

As far as one of the daughters go, it looks like it is down to Anastasia being the one that is missing, and the one whose remains are unaccounted for.

I would suggest reading the excellent; "Fate Of The Romanovs" by Greg King & Penny Wilson,  and "The Last Tsar" both of which illuminate on Yurovsky's letter's on the asassination of the family, and some subtle changes from version to version.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 22, 2005, 06:19:32 PM
Just in case there are those of you who do not know where Murmansk is.  I dug up a map from a book on an US private who was serving in this area in 1918.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/MurmanskMp.jpg)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 22, 2005, 09:35:17 PM
Thank you Bear.
It looks like it would have been easy to get to Finland from there.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 24, 2005, 10:33:22 AM
Quote

...[in part]...
I really do believe that Alexei could have NEVER survived the massacre.  He didn't have the shield of the jewels that the girls had.  His hemophilia, would have made it almost an impossibility for him to survive.

As far as one of the daughters go, it looks like it is down to Anastasia being the one that is missing, and the one whose remains are unaccounted for.

I would suggest reading the excellent; "Fate Of The Romanovs" by Greg King & Penny Wilson,  and "The Last Tsar" both of which illuminate on Yurovsky's letter's on the asassination of the family, and some subtle changes from version to version.


If there was a rescue before the execution, then Alexei would not have been struck by bullets or bayonets and  might have lived another ten or more years...

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 24, 2005, 12:26:41 PM
Yes, if there was a rescue before the execution, Alexei would have avoided being hit by bullets.

He was, however, according to most accounts, pretty frail while in the Ipatiev House.  Would he, after rescue, been provided the IMMEDIAT rest and medical care he needed by experts, or would he have had to travel and hide and go thru that stress without access to the drs?  IF the latter, he might not have survived at all........

But if there were doctors available with expertise in the treatment of hemophilia (for that time, not modern, of course), he might have been able to make it.

Which leads me to the next question:  Did N and A seek out expert medical care for Alexei when he was a babe/boy, or did they rely solely on Botkin?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 24, 2005, 04:36:21 PM
Could someone please post Alix's dairy entry from the night of the execution?
Finelly, I don't think they relied only on Botkin, but I may be wrong. I'll check it out since I can't recall off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on July 24, 2005, 05:27:18 PM
16 July:
Tuesday. Grey morning, later lovely sunshine.  Baby has a slight cold. All went out 1/2 hour in the morning.  Olga and I arranged our medicines. T read Dukhovnoye Chteniye.  They went out.  T stayed with me and we read...Every morning the Command comes to our rooms, at last after a week brought eggs for Baby.  Supper.  Suddenly, Lyonka Sednev was fetched to go and see his uncle and flew off, wonder whether it's true and we shall see the boy back again.  Played bezique with N. 10 1/2 to bed. 15 degrees.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 24, 2005, 07:03:49 PM
I often wonder if that whole episode with Maria and the guard was the ticket for her escape.  A birthday gift to remember and rue for the rest of one's life.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 24, 2005, 09:11:57 PM
Ah, yes.  And of course that birthday incident was the climax of a period of time when the captives were becoming ever closer to their captors.  The captors were apparently losing their revolutionary zeal and would probably have helped an escape, if given more time......
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 24, 2005, 11:44:47 PM
Thank you FA.
So how did Marie and the guard pull off the escape??? Any theories on that?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on July 25, 2005, 03:11:45 AM
Back to the subject of "The Tsar's House" at Murmansk.

It's a good point that any government building might have such an appellation but I'm not sure it was ever actually called this locally, more likely it's a shorthand used by Shay McNeal when referring to the house built by the Hudson Bay Company & paid for by the British Admiralty.

The Admiralty certainly referred to it as "formerly intended for the late Czar".

Building of the property, if I read the set of accounts I have from Hudson Bay records aright, commenced in October 1917, long after Nicholas had abdicated.  

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 25, 2005, 11:25:55 AM
A guestion just poped into my head.

Had Nicholas II or any other members of the Romanov family ever visited Murmansk within the last 25 years before 16 July 1918?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 25, 2005, 11:33:09 AM
Quote

The Admiralty certainly referred to it as "formerly intended for the late Czar".



Would this have been in connection to the Jonas Lied affair? I seem to recall Lied discussing his dealings with the Admiralty in his book "Sisu: Even Through A Stone Wall."
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on July 25, 2005, 12:02:05 PM
Not near any books today.

Could someone explain who Jonas Lied was?

I think I remember but not well enough to post accurate data.

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 25, 2005, 12:14:03 PM
Quote
Could someone explain who Jonas Lied was?

I think I remember but not well enough to post accurate data.



This is about where I am -- it's been a long time since I've thought about Jonas Lied...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on July 25, 2005, 05:51:13 PM
My money is still on those chaps with guns....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 25, 2005, 06:27:09 PM
Quote
My money is still on those chaps with guns....


Well that is fine, etonexile, but the real question is where is Teddy's money.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on July 25, 2005, 07:38:34 PM
Teddy's dosh is in Paraguayian War Bonds...If a Uraguayan postal inspector should happen across the the border while hunting snipe....fire just ONE shot...then Teddy will be a multi-bazzillionaire by this time tomarrow....his mind is that of an Onassis... ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 25, 2005, 07:48:50 PM
Quote
Teddy's dosh is in Paraguayian War Bonds...If a Uraguayan postal inspector should happen across the the border while hunting snipe....fire just ONE shot...then Teddy will be a multi-bazzillionaire by this time tomarrow....his mind is that of an Onassis... ::)


OMG Teddy drinks vodka and has investments? Is he single?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 27, 2005, 12:45:51 AM
On another thread, Richard Schweitzer posted the following:

Let me remind all what the scientists actually said - the mtDNA data and comparisons to a 300 person data base (no Kashubans?) "support the hypothesisthat" the subject tissue came from FS.

Despite my own prejudice, let's keep in mind that the
factual determination is an hypothesis.

I don't know if it is because it's late at night, or because I'm just not as bright as I thought I was, but I don't quite understand what he is saying.

Could a few people please explain this to me in simple language?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on July 27, 2005, 01:20:07 AM
Quote
On another thread, Richard Schweitzer posted the following:

Let me remind all what the scientists actually said - the mtDNA data and comparisons to a 300 person data base (no Kashubans?) "support the hypothesisthat" the subject tissue came from FS.
 
Despite my own prejudice, let's keep in mind that the
factual determination is an hypothesis.

I don't know if it is because it's late at night, or because I'm just not as bright as I thought I was, but I don't quite understand what he is saying.

Could a few people please explain this to me in simple language?



I know he is referring to the validiity of the tissue sample from Martha Jeffeson Hospital in VA. used in the DNA tests.    I didn't quite understand it all either.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 27, 2005, 01:41:39 PM
Michael,
Are there questions about the validity of the tissue sample? I thought that a strand of hair from AA was also used. Am I correct?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 27, 2005, 01:56:37 PM
Quote
Michael,
Are there questions about the validity of the tissue sample? I thought that a strand of hair from AA was also used. Am I correct?



The hair was hair that had been trimmed. Some say that it needs to be hair with the root. It came from a book that was in a box that a bookseller had gotten that came from the Manahan's.

I think the hair was not very useful. I can't remember if it matched or not.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Finelly on July 27, 2005, 09:25:29 PM
As I recall, there was sufficient dna in the hair samples, and it confirmed Gill's results.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 27, 2005, 10:23:15 PM
I think you are correct Finelly. I'll see if I can find documentation unless someone else can before I have time.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on July 27, 2005, 10:29:47 PM
Quote
Michael,
Are there questions about the validity of the tissue sample? I thought that a strand of hair from AA was also used. Am I correct?



Not being in the medical or science field would hair be considered a tissue sample as was referred to in the original post?  I assumed the tissue sample being referred to is the intestinal tissue sample which was used for DNA purposes.  However I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on July 27, 2005, 10:38:12 PM
No, I think you are right.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on August 23, 2005, 06:48:44 PM
I'd just like to get a very basic sense of where folks stand on the survivor issue. I'm NOT looking for discussion or debate, or even reasons why you feel the way you do -- just your opinion on these questions. Please, just answer yes or no!

1. Do you believe anyone survived?

2. Do you believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia Nikolaevna?


As for me, my answer to both questions is no.
Thanks,
Sarah
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on August 23, 2005, 07:22:55 PM
99% NO

100% NO
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 23, 2005, 11:24:36 PM
I think they were survivors. But I don't know WHO survived and who didn't.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 23, 2005, 11:26:11 PM
I forgot a question:

2- Yes; for me AA was AN.


RealAnastasia.

P.S; And no; I'm not a fairy -tale believer.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Kimberly on August 24, 2005, 03:12:05 AM
1) No.
2) No.
Regards Kim.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Belochka on August 24, 2005, 04:25:53 AM
Hi sarahelizabethii,

I presume you mean the I. F.'s fate in Ekaterinburg?

My replies to your query are:

1. NO - no one survived.

2. NO - (see above).

Thank you for your question.

Regards,

Belochka
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Rachael89 on August 24, 2005, 04:29:34 AM
Hi  :)

1.) Yes

2.) 75% yes (I'm not 100% certain!)

Rachael
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on August 24, 2005, 08:54:10 AM
110% Absolutely, positively NO to both questions.

Counts twice as Bob A. is of same opinion.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on August 24, 2005, 08:54:56 AM
Quote
I forgot a question:

2- Yes; for me AA was AN.


RealAnastasia.

P.S; And no; I'm not a fairy -tale believer.


RA...You are a most interesting person....

<<"NOOOOOOOOO">> to both questions.....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Merrique on August 24, 2005, 11:57:26 AM
Absolutely Positively NO to both questions.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on August 24, 2005, 01:35:52 PM
Any survivors - 95% sure not, but it's the 5% that keeps me interested......

AA = AN - as above but not really that interested

Phil T
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Vicki on August 24, 2005, 02:11:26 PM
1. No (even though I'd like to believe someone survived, I don't think anyone did)
2. No
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Lanie on August 24, 2005, 02:36:41 PM
Absolutely not for all questions.  C'est impossible!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Georgiy on August 24, 2005, 05:00:04 PM
No to both.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Olga_Anna on August 24, 2005, 05:10:42 PM
1. NO!  

2. NO!

(Counts 3 times. My mom and dad but say NO!)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on August 24, 2005, 08:53:44 PM
1st  one  Most  Likely Not  2nd  95 persent
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on August 24, 2005, 08:55:56 PM
95 % percent  she was
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on August 26, 2005, 06:04:35 AM
Let me add 101% NO for both my teenagers who always make fun of me for even fighting about it.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Marialana on August 26, 2005, 06:19:31 AM
Two definite No's for me.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 26, 2005, 08:44:14 AM
No, to both.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on August 26, 2005, 12:12:56 PM
NO-NO...X...NO-NO...DNA evidence and such....and yet...there are....THOSE....who will ever believe.... Would that I had their phone numbers to sell life insurance at 9PM....sigh....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on August 26, 2005, 01:50:18 PM
No to both...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on August 26, 2005, 05:00:34 PM
Absolutely  NO survivors.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mobar on August 27, 2005, 02:53:00 AM
No to both.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Candice on August 28, 2005, 07:13:43 PM
Yes - survivors

No - AA was definitely not AN
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on August 28, 2005, 07:45:19 PM
Dear Sarah,

'If' I could honestly place my trust in the facts given of those whom gave history their testimony as to the night of the murders of TIF, then I would be able to state a yes or no.

As I have stated in other forums on this wonderful website: In regards to the communists, and 'their history', it has been so twisted, corrupted, disjointed, that it is hard to believe that the correct streets were named so anyone could get to their destinations, it at all possible, during their 80 years of occupation.

Don't know if it would have been a curse or a blessing if a any member of TIM survived that horrific murder spree.

In defference to their memories, all I can offer is a prayer for each and every member of TIH, and always, if forever, an added prayer that such brutality never again be visited again on any peoples or country.

Tania
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on August 28, 2005, 09:19:03 PM
Whether or not I believe them, I find it interesting to read new or more obscure theories on what happened to the family or any member of. Candice, Tania, anyone else with any new or lesser discussed tales, I'd love to hear them!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 29, 2005, 08:37:34 PM
Of course, there are several theories about the IF fate. But basically, I think there are three of them: 1- there was a massacre in the Ipatiev House in July 1918 and some of the members of the IF escaped. The thing that changes in all the cases I know is the number of members of the IF who managed to escape almost always, very wounded. There are claimants who said that they were the only ones who escaped; other pretenders claimed that two or three, or even four members of the IF could go away. We may analyze all the cases of the people who claims to have escaped AFTER the Ipatiev massacre. 2- There never was a massacre. The entire IF or only the women (I mean the Tsarina and the Tsarevnas) escaped. Here you may find the "Perm Theories". Some of these claimants said that even the Tsar managed to escape. Michael Golenievsky, a "Tsarevich Alexei 's pretender" stated that his entire family escaped to Warsaw. If we believe Golenievsky's claim, the Tsar died in 1952, being an elder man of 84 years old. The Tsaritsa died in 1925 and all the Grand Duchess were alive and kicking...You may read the entire story in the "Michael Golenievsky" thread in the "Claimants Forum" 3- There was a massacre but some of the IF members escaped BEFORE it. This is the case of Margda Boodts claim, but there are more of them.

We may discuss all these stories, other than AA's one. There are quite interesting. Golenievsky's one is perfect to start. What do you think?

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on August 29, 2005, 08:50:52 PM
No way...he and his mother were pretenders...the time line doesn't fit.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on August 30, 2005, 10:47:44 AM
I think Annie's intent is a good one, however, mixing in the claimants escape stories will make this thread very complex.  Instead of just talking about the possibilities of various escapes this thread is constantly going to run into  the "I don't believe so-and-so was Alexei or Anastasia or Maria.   If I may throw out a suggestion,  perhaps it would be best just to discuss the various theories as well as the various stories given by claimants as to the facts directed toward just their escape story and if it was possible or not possible.  Similar to what we were doing over on the other thread about AA's [Anna Anderson's] story about her being in a cart and being taken to Bucherest.  

I don't believe Annie meant this to be a thread about the claimants themselves, just about their escapes and/ or theories of escapes IF [a big if] some member of the IF family had done the impossible, escaped the horrors of that night.

What do you think, Annie?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 30, 2005, 07:46:57 PM
I agree, Bear. Perhaps my bad English doesn't allow to understand what I was trying to say. I'm not encouraging a discussion about the claimants, but about the theories of the fate of the IF. Some of the claimants told amazing stories about the IF escape or survivors theories. Is only THIS what is interesting to me about pretenders. The only theory that I wouldn't discuss here is "Anna Anderson's Story". Too many threads about her.

But we may inestead discuss other "survivor" theories.

1- Michael Golenievsky's one
2- Eugenia Smith (Smetisko's) one.
3-Larissa Feodorovna's one.
4- Marga  Boodts one .
5-Heino Tammet one
6-Filipp Grigorievich Semionov...
7-Filatov's one.
8- Tatiana Michaelis one's
9-Tatia Romani's
10-Nadezhda Inavona Vasilievna'a
11-Mlle. Berditch's...

I'm sure I'm forgotting some claimant. So, help me to enlarge the list.

Remember that WE ARE NOT discussing if these people was the true thing or fake ones. We are only recalling and listing here their escape theories. Resuming: we are discussing the way that these pretenders claimed to have escaped Ekaterinburg...not themselves as true Romanovs or impostors. And remember another thing: no Anna Anderson here.  ;)

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Lizameridox on August 31, 2005, 07:16:55 AM
1.  Filipp Grigorievich Semyonov -- did not sound consistent when he told his story.  But it boils down to a gravely wounded Tsarevich, who had been unable to walk for several days, being left for dead, coming around, waking up and walking on his own to the nearest outpost of civilization.

2.  Tammet -- Yurovsky deliberately misses when appearing to shoot him in the head and arrangements are made through distant relatives of family servants to nurse him back to health, as he is apparently still gravely injured.  Takes on the identity of a child around his age who had recently died of some disease.  'Alexei' is depicted as a bargaining chip which, strangely enough, the Bolsheviks or Lenin appear not in fact to have used.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on August 31, 2005, 10:16:26 AM
Not sure why...but all these theories seem vaguely insulting to those who were most certainly butchered...It's as if imposters were granted the beauty and grace of life that the dead might have enjoyed...But if wild theories amuse most....Go for it...Just don't take them seriously....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on August 31, 2005, 03:05:49 PM
Quote
Not sure why...but all these theories seem vaguely insulting to those who were most certainly butchered...It's as if imposters were granted the beauty and grace of life that the dead might have enjoyed...But if wild theories amuse most....Go for it...Just don't take them seriously....


I never meant for this to be about actual claimants but about wild and more obscure general rumors of escape.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on August 31, 2005, 07:44:00 PM
Quote
Not sure why...but all these theories seem vaguely insulting to those who were most certainly butchered...It's as if imposters were granted the beauty and grace of life that the dead might have enjoyed...But if wild theories amuse most....Go for it...Just don't take them seriously....


As long as the two bodies are missing, there will be theories that Anastasia and/ or Alexei escaped.

etonexlle has been around long enough to know some of us are prone to be arm chair detectives which gets us away from a variety of events occuring in our lives.  If you do not wish to join us in this new adventure which Annie has created,  that's fine, we'll understand why you don't post and we'll see you over on other threads which you find more to your liking.

Meanwhile,  back to theories on escape or survival of G D Anastasia, Alexei, and others.

I think the first thing we need to agree upon is the THEORY that Yurovsky's testimonies were not completely true and that something else occured in the Ipatiev House that night.

AGRBear  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 31, 2005, 08:01:57 PM
I must agree with Annie. We are NOT DISCUSSING CLAIMANTS AUTHENTICITY, but ESCAPE THEORIES. All these pretenders claimed to have escaped from Ekaterinburg in some oscure way. We are supposed to tell those stories here and analyze them.

Here we go:

1-MICHAEL GOLENIEVSKY: He claimed that the entire family escaped, helped by Yurovsky. No massacre here.All the IF went away Ekaterinburg together to Warsaw, Poland.  I'll quote Robert K. Massie in "The Romanovs; The last Chapter":

"...Inestead of shooting the family in the cellar, according to Golenievsky, Yurovsky had helped them to escape. He shepherded them disguised as poor refugees out of Russia. After months of travel through Turkey, Greece and Austria, they found their way to Warsaw..."

The Tsar choosed Poland for there were so many Russians there. He shaved her beard and mustache and nobody recognized him. In 1924, all of them moved from Warsaw to a little country village named Poznan, near German border. In the same year (I wrote wrongly that she died in 1925. Sorry for the mistake, guys and girls  :-/) the Tsarina died, and the tsar send Anastasia to America, to withdraw funds from a bank in Detroit. She never returned to Poland. Olga and Tatiana moved to Germany. Nicholas, Alexei and his sister Maria remained near Poznan through the WWII, and for a time the Tsar served in Polish Underground. Golenievsky spent his teenager years in Poznan and in 1945, some friends arranged his admission into the Polish army, and he began his careen in intelligence. Nicholas II died in 1952, having eighty-four. Golenievsky said to Eugenia Smith, who he recognized as his sister Anastasia, that he had buried their father with his own hands. So Mrs. Smith said very touched:

"-He knows, he knows. He is my brother, Alexis. My darling, my darling."

And this is Michael Golenievsky "story" about his escape.
We may resume it like this, in some points:

a)- No massacre.
b) Yurovsky help them to go away.
c)The entire family escaped.
d) They lived in Poland (Warsaw and Poznan)
e) The Tsaritsa died in 1924 in Poznan.
f) The Tsar died in Poznan in 1952 and he is buried there.
g) The five Romanov Children "were alive" when Golenievsky told his  story.


And that's all. Remember that the notice above DO NOT MEAN that I believe in Golenievsky authenticity.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Robby on September 02, 2005, 10:36:39 AM
Yes i believe someone survived and no i don't believe AA.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 02, 2005, 01:28:42 PM
1. Do you believe anyone survived?

Extremely unlikely.

2. Do you believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia Nikolaevna?

Definitely not.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: jeremygaleaz on September 03, 2005, 08:18:59 AM
1. Survivors? No. I really think the two missing bodies are simply buried much further away from the burial spot of the other 9 then we realize.

2. Not at all.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: pentetorri on September 03, 2005, 08:41:44 AM
YES  to both questions.

P.S. By the way how can anyone be sure 110%? oh, I know infallibility......
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Margarita Markovna on September 03, 2005, 10:31:07 PM
No to the first question, though it breaks my heart.

HECK NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
to the second question.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on September 04, 2005, 09:25:57 AM
Remember...we should think with our heads...not our hearts...Sadly,that's how the real world works....Not as romantic and glamourous...but that's how it is.....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 04, 2005, 12:26:07 PM
I really wish that someone had survived and I wish that the survivor were recognized so to an extent wish AA were ANR.

However, these are wishes. Facts are much different, and it is a scientific opinion that no one could have survived murders so brutal, so no, I do not believe that there were survivors.

It is obvious to me that it was known that there were missing bodies, and it is the fact that there are missing bodies that has led to the many survivor stories.

Scientific evidence also excludes AA as being related at all to the Imperial Family. As a rational person, I cannot "believe" that she was ANR. However, there are several people I love dearly who believe she was also not Schanzkowska.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Margarita Markovna on September 04, 2005, 02:12:32 PM
Quote
Remember...we should think with our heads...not our hearts...Sadly,that's how the real world works....Not as romantic and glamourous...but that's how it is.....



Well, this is why I said "no".
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: joan_d on September 06, 2005, 11:08:04 AM
No to both questions - none of the Imperial Family came out of that cellar alive.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Elocin on September 06, 2005, 11:21:04 PM
1) A slim very slim possibility of survivors. Really like 99.89% sure that the answer is no survivors.

2) Definitely not!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Margarita Markovna on September 07, 2005, 08:15:53 PM
By the way, there's a pretty long thread on this a little further down. It's more of a discussion than yes or no, though.

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1122682324

:) Ritka
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: reashka on September 07, 2005, 11:18:41 PM
1.) no
2.) NO.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Penny_Wilson on September 08, 2005, 10:39:10 AM
Quote
I'd just like to get a very basic sense of where folks stand on the survivor issue. I'm NOT looking for discussion or debate, or even reasons why you feel the way you do -- just your opinion on these questions. Please, just answer yes or no!

1. Do you believe anyone survived?



"Survived" is a big and loaded word.   8)

Do I think that someone left the basement room alive? Well, based on my FOTR research, I believe that at least two and perhaps as many as four people left that room alive.  

Eyewitness testimony -- and I see no reason to doubt it -- tells us that two "girls" sat up and struggled to get away in the truck.  The candidates are: Marie and Demidova, whose skulls, unlike those of the other women, do not bear evidence of headshots.  I think it not unreasonable to assume that those others, who obviously sustained massive brain lacerations, died in that room or soon after, and were pretty unlikely to have been able to sit up and fight.

Another candidate for sitting up and struggling in the truck was Anastasia -- we simply have no idea what sort of wounds she sustained, so she must remain a possibility.

Alexei was not a "girl," but because we do not have his body, we cannot say conclusively that he died in the basement room.

So I believe that up to four people "survived" the basement:  Some combination or a totality of Alexei, Marie, Anastasia and Demidova.

Did any of them survive the night?  Well, I don't believe that Marie or Demidova did -- I accept that their bodies were found in that grave in the Stenbock-Ferner woods.

As for Anastasia and Alexei -- I don't know.  I am open to the possibility that either or both survived, though for how long, again, I don't know.  But survival isn't impossible -- stranger things have happened.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on September 08, 2005, 10:58:49 AM
That's an excellent point, Penny, about the varying definitions/levels of "surviving" that are possible in this case.

Perhaps a more accurate way to state the sentiment behind my original question is: Did anyone live to tell the tale?

As for myself, I can accept the possibility that someone could have left the cellar alive. I still tend toward the belief that no one made it through the night.

Ritka -- thanks for the reference to the other thread. I've been watching it from time to time, and I think I'll be adding my two cents' worth soon. I'd still like this thread to be devoted to basic opinions, since there are so many extended discussions in process already.
Sm
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Margarita Markovna on September 08, 2005, 01:31:41 PM
Sarahelizabethii- of course- a lot of threads are just long discussions. If you want one of this subject, that's one (and I saw you posted in it). :) I personally like the idea of a yes or no (or NO!) thread.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: jeremygaleaz on September 13, 2005, 10:10:56 PM
Quote

"Survived" is a big and loaded word.   8)

Do I think that someone left the basement room alive? Well, based on my FOTR research, I believe that at least two and perhaps as many as four people left that room alive.  

Eyewitness testimony -- and I see no reason to doubt it -- tells us that two "girls" sat up and struggled to get away in the truck.  The candidates are: Marie and Demidova, whose skulls, unlike those of the other women, do not bear evidence of headshots.  I think it not unreasonable to assume that those others, who obviously sustained massive brain lacerations, died in that room or soon after, and were pretty unlikely to have been able to sit up and fight.

Another candidate for sitting up and struggling in the truck was Anastasia -- we simply have no idea what sort of wounds she sustained, so she must remain a possibility.

Alexei was not a "girl," but because we do not have his body, we cannot say conclusively that he died in the basement room.

So I believe that up to four people "survived" the basement:  Some combination or a totality of Alexei, Marie, Anastasia and Demidova.

Did any of them survive the night?  Well, I don't believe that Marie or Demidova did -- I accept that their bodies were found in that grave in the Stenbock-Ferner woods.

As for Anastasia and Alexei -- I don't know.  I am open to the possibility that either or both survived, though for how long, again, I don't know.  But survival isn't impossible -- stranger things have happened.


What is your opinion on question #2?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Penny_Wilson on September 13, 2005, 10:49:07 PM
Quote

What is your opinion on question #2?


I'm not prepared to answer this one fully at this time -- so I won't.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: jeremygaleaz on September 13, 2005, 11:10:20 PM
Quote

I'm not prepared to answer this one fully at this time -- so I won't.


Okay! ;)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Czarevna Colleen on October 08, 2005, 07:29:39 PM
Okay, you can laugh at me all you want, but here goes:

1. Yes.  (Too many things just don't add up).

2.  I'm kind of torn about that.  DNA evidence seems to have proved otherwise, but there were so many things about her and things that she knew that just seemed impossible for anyone who wasn't at least close to the family to have knowledge of.

There's my two cents.  I'll shut up now. ;) ;D 8)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: palatine on October 09, 2005, 11:55:44 AM
1.  Yes, I think it is possible that someone survived.

2.  I am undecided about whether Anna Anderson was Anastasia or not.

Just my humble opinion...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Czarevna Colleen on October 09, 2005, 06:12:31 PM
Well, at least I'm not alone!!! :D 8)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on October 09, 2005, 06:30:00 PM
No survivors.
If one accepts them as Orthodox saints, then the notion of survivors seems anathema.
If one examines the detailed accounts of the execution, the chances of excape are virtually nil.
If there is "secret evidence that has yet to be shared" - then I am oblidged to judge using the information at hand.

No survivors.

rskkiya
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Denise on October 09, 2005, 07:15:05 PM
1.  No one survived the night in the cellar.  Some were alive as they were carried from the cellar per the eyewitness accounts, but the extent of injuries on the bodies that were recovered leaves me no doubt that the two missing bodies more than likely suffered injuries at least as bad.  

2.  No, AA was not ANR.  

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sian_Turner on October 10, 2005, 07:15:27 AM
1.  Yes I believe that there were survivors

2.  Yes I believe that Anna Anderson was the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaevna.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Georgiy on October 10, 2005, 07:28:30 PM
For once Rsskiya and I concur!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: bigbi on October 13, 2005, 04:37:37 AM
I believe Anastasia was bayanoted and hit by rifle butts on her head, but as Yakov ordered the bodies checked, a certain solider did notice Anastasia still to be alive. With the guards all drunk and the room filled with smoke, it would have been quite easy for him to take the young girl's body away. He stuffed her in his cart. As Anna Anderson later stated, the first thing she remembered seeing were stars. They were the stars of that night. She was later raped and had a baby. She used the jewels sown in her clothes to bribe guards to let her and her kidnapper cross the border. Her husband would be shot, her baby would given to an orphanage, and the guard's brother would help her to Berlin. While in Berlin, depressed by the loss of her family, she tried to drown herself in the canal. You know what happened after that. Yes, I do believe that her lips did indeed alter slightly, but she always did have a fat bottom lip as a child. As far as what happened to the body of Alexei, I don't think we will ever really know.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on October 13, 2005, 01:10:14 PM
Bigbi,
You need to read up on the actual evidence of the evening. Greg and Penny did excellent research into the events. First, the guards weren't drunk. Second, Yurovski puzzled for quite a while how to get all the bodies out of the basement. They were counted, checked and loaded onto the truck. They were counted again at the mine, and then all stripped naked once the jewels were found.  

This much is WITHOUT DOUBT. Please do more research before repeating the mis-information of Anna Anderson as 'fact'.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Kimberly on October 13, 2005, 01:48:59 PM
O/T but "Fate of the Romanovs" is a must read -Particularly the  harrowing description of the killings in the cellar. Regards Kim.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: bigbi on October 14, 2005, 01:06:08 AM
Quote
Bigbi,
You need to read up on the actual evidence of the evening. Greg and Penny did excellent research into the events. First, the guards weren't drunk. Second, Yurovski puzzled for quite a while how to get all the bodies out of the basement. They were counted, checked and loaded onto the truck. They were counted again at the mine, and then all stripped naked once the jewels were found.  

This much is WITHOUT DOUBT. Please do more research before repeating the mis-information of Anna Anderson as 'fact'.

You take every single thing Yurovosky wrote as a fact it seems. How could they have really checked each of these bodies when the room was so filled with smoke? How could they know that a guard was snatching someone away? Just because Yakov wrote it, dosen't mean it's a fact. I also must say that it was apparent that the killers did not know one grand duchess from another. The report always stated, "one of the grand duchesses" everytime anything occured. Then as the bodies were stripped at the grave, he mentions that Olga, Marie, and Anastasia had diamonds sown into their corsets? Where the hell is Tatiana? Why would she not have diamonds in her corset? Apparently, one of the grand duchesses were missing, as well as Alexis. That is why he wrote in his report that Alexei and Alexandra were meant to be burned, but Demidova was burned instead of the empress. However, Demidova was found in the grave. And don't bother to tell me they mistook Anastasia for Demidova. Anna Demidova was a very tall woman. There could have been no confusion.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on October 14, 2005, 05:39:06 AM
Quote
You take every single thing Yurovosky wrote as a fact it seems. How could they have really checked each of these bodies when the room was so filled with smoke? How could they know that a guard was snatching someone away? Just because Yakov wrote it, dosen't mean it's a fact. I also must say that it was apparent that the killers did not know one grand duchess from another. The report always stated, "one of the grand duchesses" everytime anything occured. Then as the bodies were stripped at the grave, he mentions that Olga, Marie, and Anastasia had diamonds sown into their corsets? Where the hell is Tatiana? Why would she not have diamonds in her corset? Apparently, one of the grand duchesses were missing, as well as Alexis. That is why he wrote in his report that Alexei and Alexandra were meant to be burned, but Demidova was burned instead of the empress. However, Demidova was found in the grave. And don't bother to tell me they mistook Anastasia for Demidova. Anna Demidova was a very tall woman. There could have been no confusion.


Bigbi
PLEASE do read "The Fate Of the Romanovs" the "up to date" information on the actual execution will answer all your doubts.

You are clearly very interested in this, but you need to do some more detailed research.

rskkiya
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: cscomo on October 15, 2005, 03:43:26 AM
1 . Do you believe anyone survived?

No

2. Do you believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia Nikolaevna?

No

Maureen (new member)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: cscomo on October 15, 2005, 04:06:58 AM
I'm new here, although I have read through many of the archived posts - this is my first post.

Do you all remember the "Nova" documentary from maybe 10 years ago called "Anastasia - Dead  orAlive?" ? I think it was a fascinating documentary, and really showed the difference between those who just looked at cold, hard facts, and those who "just knew" that Anna Andersen was Anastasia.

One of the scientists interviewed (I think it was William Maples) made what I think is the smartest remark ever made about the "survivor" controversy. I don't have the exact quote, but it was something like this:

(Talking about the possibility that Anastasia and Alexei may have survived): "I don't believe anyone could have survived. I have seen a lot of execution sites. The "sympathetic executioner" doesn't really exist, in the real world. Those 2 children died with the rest of their family."

There were no survivors among the Tsar's immediate family. They didn't want anyone to survive, and if there is one thing fanatic idealogues and revolutionaries can do, it's carry out their plans, no matter how cold-blooded.

And for Mrs. Andersen's supporters to say, "She was a LADY...there was nothing about her that had anything to do with factories or peasants!" I'm sorry, or maybe I'm just too much of a republican (small R, believe me!) or a US citizen to believe that there is something about the "upper classes" that is intrinsically different than we lowly peasants (something mystical and rarefied). What a silly, elitist attitude!

Ok, I'm climbing down from my soapbox...

BTW, I wish that Anastasia HAD survived...what a tragedy for the children. Nicholas bought and paid for what happened to him, as did Alexandra. But Olga, Tatiana, Marie, Anastasia and Alexei - complete innocents, who followed their parents into exile willingly. They weren't actually under arrest, and they could have left the country (provided they could make it out of St. Petersburg, or past the hard-core revolutionary guards). But they chose to stay with their parents. That kind of devotion is pretty amazing.

Maureen
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Denise on October 15, 2005, 06:55:46 AM
Maureen, welcome!!  And well said.  I agree with you completely.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on October 15, 2005, 08:23:16 AM
Quote
And for Mrs. Andersen's supporters to say, "She was a LADY...there was nothing about her that had anything to do with factories or peasants!" I'm sorry, or maybe I'm just too much of a republican (small R, believe me!) or a US citizen to believe that there is something about the "upper classes" that is intrinsically different than we lowly peasants (something mystical and rarefied). What a silly, elitist attitude!
 



Maureen


I don't even see what was so upper class about her, every video I've seen she seemed very common, even crude at times. She was old, though, perhaps she pulled off the act much better in her younger days.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on October 15, 2005, 10:07:28 AM
Quote
You take every single thing Yurovosky wrote as a fact it seems. How could they have really checked each of these bodies when the room was so filled with smoke? How could they know that a guard was snatching someone away? Just because Yakov wrote it, dosen't mean it's a fact. I also must say that it was apparent that the killers did not know one grand duchess from another. The report always stated, "one of the grand duchesses" everytime anything occured. Then as the bodies were stripped at the grave, he mentions that Olga, Marie, and Anastasia had diamonds sown into their corsets? Where the hell is Tatiana? Why would she not have diamonds in her corset? Apparently, one of the grand duchesses were missing, as well as Alexis. That is why he wrote in his report that Alexei and Alexandra were meant to be burned, but Demidova was burned instead of the empress. However, Demidova was found in the grave. And don't bother to tell me they mistook Anastasia for Demidova. Anna Demidova was a very tall woman. There could have been no confusion.



Bigbi,

Just the other week, I reread FOTR, and the execution most carefully.  It sickened me, and I had to reread it in sections, as it was not the quick execution we had been lead to believe.   It was horrid.  Especially the death of AF.  

As much as you would like to believe it, there was no chance of surviors.  There was also no way a body could have been taken out of the house and hidden.  

As to not being able to name the grand duchess, wasn't easier for the killers to disassociate their act, by saying one of the Grand Duchesses's, instead of using the name of Olga, Tatiana, Marie & Anastasia, it made it less personal with the use of the title, more anaseptic as they were ridding the world of these horrid "Grand Duchesses" rather than killing a person.  Also, they probably couldn't see through all of the smoke and haze very well.

While the children bore no responsibility for the parents misguided reign, they unfortunately were executed with the same cruelty and disregard for decency as their parents, and Anastasia perished with them.  The execution was not some rush into the room and then two minutes later they were all dead.  They made sure they were dead and all on the truck.  Now what happened to the corpses of Anastasia & Alexis, that is another story.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on October 15, 2005, 10:08:58 AM
Quote
For once Rsskiya and I concur!



I am in total shock, one of the FOTR bashers, just reccomended the book, perhaps they were right and the world is flat ::) ::)  ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 15, 2005, 12:50:44 PM
I agree their was nothing Royal about AA!!

I just wish we knew what happened to the missing bodies and put the question of any survivors to bed!!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Elisabeth on October 15, 2005, 01:25:56 PM
Welcome to the forum, Maureen. I completely agree with you on all the points you make.

Quote
One of the scientists interviewed (I think it was William Maples) made what I think is the smartest remark ever made about the "survivor" controversy. I don't have the exact quote, but it was something like this:

(Talking about the possibility that Anastasia and Alexei may have survived): "I don't believe anyone could have survived. I have seen a lot of execution sites. The "sympathetic executioner" doesn't really exist, in the real world. Those 2 children died with the rest of their family."

There were no survivors among the Tsar's immediate family. They didn't want anyone to survive, and if there is one thing fanatic idealogues and revolutionaries can do, it's carry out their plans, no matter how cold-blooded.


We also have to realize that the murderers in this case were not made up of the family's usual guards. In fact they were a special detachment, which had been acquainted with the family for less than 2 weeks - indeed, they were only called into the Ipatiev House on July 8, 1918, nine days before the murders. Even Yurovsky himself only became commandant on July 4 - which no doubt explains his occasional confusion over which imperial daughter was which (for example, in identifying the bodies at Pig's Meadow). None of these men had any time in which to form any kind of personal attachment to the victims, which was surely part of the plan. Those few men who balked at "shooting girls" were excused; we can reasonably expect that the rest of the detachment was highly enthusiastic in its participation.

IMO, believing that anyone could have survived the night of the murders is like believing that someone could have survived the Manson murders. Although superficially the two cases seem to have little in common, the ideological fanaticism of the murderers and their overkill of the victims were much the same.

Quote
And for Mrs. Andersen's supporters to say, "She was a LADY...there was nothing about her that had anything to do with factories or peasants!" I'm sorry, or maybe I'm just too much of a republican (small R, believe me!) or a US citizen to believe that there is something about the "upper classes" that is intrinsically different than we lowly peasants (something mystical and rarefied). What a silly, elitist attitude!


What good points you make. Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of historical examples of "common" women rising to great power and influence through sheer intelligence and perseverance. Look at Nell Gwynne, a down-at-the-heels orange girl who became the mistress of Charles II. Look at Jeanne Poisson, a common peasant who rose to become the mighty mistress of Louis XV and a celebrated patron of the arts in her own right, Madame du Pompadour.

On the other hand, I've always believed the claim that Anna Anderson was somehow innately royal in her behavior was made a mockery by the evidence. The way she lived in the last decades of her life especially - surrounded by garbage and squalor, the ultimate cat lady, frowned upon by all her neighbors who had to put up with the filth and the stench she created - pretty much negates the idea that she was born and bred a "lady." More to the point, I don't see any evidence that any of the real Anastasia Nikolaevna's relatives ever evinced similarly outlandish eccentricities in their old age.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on October 15, 2005, 03:19:02 PM
Quote
Michael
I do not think that FOTR is a well written book but it is insiteful on much information regarding the actual execution .
rskkiya


This is why I am perplexed as to why one of its authors seems to lean toward AN escaping :-/ :P
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on October 15, 2005, 03:22:14 PM
If you mean Penny, the most I have read is that she thinks Anastasia might have been one of the wounded that left the actual execution room alive. Not quite the same thing as "escaping", and of course, we don'rt have the missing bodies of Alexei and Anastasia. This doesn't mean they "escaped", but it does not mean we can say with certainty "how" they died.

Regards,

Simon
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on October 15, 2005, 03:38:43 PM
Quote
Michael
I do not think that FOTR is a well written book but it is insiteful on much information regarding the actual execution .
I am deeply insulted by your unkind and unwarrented 'flat earth' remark. I expect an apology, but I don't know if I will get one.

rskkiya



It wasn't meant as an insult.  It was a joke, and NOT directed at you, but at me, and that you took it as such, perhaps shows a too sensitive nature that will often be offended by remarks on these threads, perhaps you shouldn't post here any longer if that is the way you feel, or develop a sense of humor.

That  we can't lighten up and laugh once in a while on these threads is a shame.

FOTR, is more than well written on the execution, it is insightful, and inside look at the last months of the IF.
Personally I consider it to be the definitive work on this subject.   Much like Greg King's works on Alexandra and on Wallis Windsor, I find that they opened up new insights about the people and their lives and in this case, deaths, for me.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on October 15, 2005, 03:42:18 PM
Quote
If you mean Penny, the most I have read is that she thinks Anastasia might have been one of the wounded that left the actual execution room alive. Not quite the same thing as "escaping", and of course, we don'rt have the missing bodies of Alexei and Anastasia. This doesn't mean they "escaped", but it does not mean we can say with certainty "how" they died.

Regards,

Simon


Well of course she means Penny, who else could she be referring to Simon.  I don't believe Penny has ever stated that she believed AN escaped.  

From her posts she leans towards a the theory that AA may not be FS.  But I believe she has stated that AN did not escape.  If I am wrong then I apologize Penny.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 15, 2005, 07:41:05 PM
Quote
If you mean Penny, the most I have read is that she thinks Anastasia might have been one of the wounded that left the actual execution room alive. Not quite the same thing as "escaping", and of course, we don'rt have the missing bodies of Alexei and Anastasia. This doesn't mean they "escaped", but it does not mean we can say with certainty "how" they died.

Regards,

Simon


Simon, before you got to this board (last year), Penny Wilson made it clear that she believed that Anastasia escaped and that AA was Anastasia (in spite of the DNA evidence). PW argued this point very fervently for a long time, and then one day she suddenly "changed her mind" and said that she now believes the DNA (with a disclaimer - something to the effect of "the way DNA evidence appears at this time"). After that PW went on to delete all the posts where she argued that AA was Anastasia, and this is why you never saw them. So this is what Lilibet's Mole meant by her last post...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on October 15, 2005, 10:39:17 PM
Quote
Michael
Surely by now I thought you would have realized that what you mean as "sarcastic retorts' to Annie [or anyone else with whom you disagree] and that which you intend as FUN are really not easy to separate in your posts.

I do not think that FOTR was completely valid in all the arguements it presented... BUT it did make a heroic effort to collect and examine all the information available about the execution, and to clarify the facts from myth and rumour.

Sadly I really didn't think that you would apologize.

rskkiya


Give it a rest Rskkiya, I think you doth protest too much, way too much in fact.  I am not going to get into a tennis match with you, as it doesn't serve our purpose here.  

Again what points of FOTR weren't valid?? I love the way your praise it in one hand and damn it with the other hand.  However please enlighten me on what wasn't valid about this work.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 15, 2005, 10:58:29 PM
Quote
Aaaahh  Helen, we should call Lilibet Mole, by her name, Annie.  


I am calling her by her new username, why is that a problem?


Quote
 However why don't you put this personal vendetta with Penny aside for once??  


Since when is posting facts a "personal vendetta"?  ??? An incorrect statement was made and I just set it straight, that's all. Penny Wilson indeed fervently believed and argued that Anna Anderson was Anastasia until recently. Just as she currently fervently believes and argues that AA was not FS. You certainly cannot accuse me of lying about this, can you? Just because these posts were deleted, it doesn't mean these things didn't happen. Or is this again the "Olga Alexandrovna lied" type of logic: just because someone doesn't like what I am saying this means I am lying?  ???

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 15, 2005, 11:03:26 PM
Quote

I don't believe Penny has ever stated that she believed AN escaped... I believe she has stated that AN did not escape.


This was the incorrect statement I was referring to.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on October 15, 2005, 11:09:07 PM
Quote

I am calling her by her new username, why is that a problem?



Since when is posting facts a "personal vendetta"?  ??? An incorrect statement was made and I just set it straight, that's all. Penny Wilson indeed fervently believed and argued that Anna Anderson was Anastasia until recently. Just as she currently fervently believes and argues that AA was not FS. You certainly cannot accuse me of lying about this, can you? Just because these posts were deleted, it doesn't mean these things didn't happen. Or is this again the "Olga Alexandrovna lied" type of logic: just because someone doesn't like what I am saying this means I am lying?  ???




I am not accusing you of lying at all Helen, you misunderstand me.  I do think that knowing of the history between yourself and Penny, and how volatile it can get here on these threads, would have forwarded this to Simon by PM.   I am just trying to keep this from developing into a battle.   It has just become much too personal, and I would like a discussion for once instead of an argument.

I truly don't remember Penny stating these things so it may have been before I came to the boards also, which has been about 2 years.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 15, 2005, 11:17:26 PM
Quote
I truly don't remember Penny stating these things so it may have been before I came to the boards also, which has been about 2 years.


She did, and it was less than a year ago, and not only did she state it, she used to have extremely bitter confrontations with numerous people -  with anyone who disagreed that AA was not AN.  It has nothing to do with my history with her - this goes way back.

I would normally send a PM about it, but there were a bunch of posts made about this issue so I had just responded to set the record straight, which is my right. I certainly did not start this.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on October 15, 2005, 11:28:15 PM
Quote

She did, and it was less than a year ago, and not only did she state it, she used to have extremely bitter confrontations with numerous people -  with anyone who disagreed that AA was not AN.  It has nothing to do with my history with her - this goes way back.

I would normally send a PM about it, but there were a bunch of posts made about this issue so I had just responded to set the record straight, which is my right. I certainly did not start this.



I do understand your position, and I don't remember Penny posting it, however even my position has changed on the AA case to a degree, even though I still have doubts about FS being AA.  So I don't think it is so wrong for someone to change their position on an issue.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on October 16, 2005, 07:39:03 AM
Quote


I do understand your position, and I don't remember Penny posting it, however even my position has changed on the AA case to a degree, even though I still have doubts about FS being AA.  So I don't think it is so wrong for someone to change their position on an issue.


Helen is right, Penny did post it. I have even reposted it in other threads as proof. And I don't believe a person necessarily changes their position even when they say they do, especially when actions speak louder than words and everything they try to do here leans toward that conclusion.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on October 16, 2005, 07:51:27 AM
Quote

Helen is right, Penny did post it. I have even reposted it in other threads as proof. And I don't believe a person necessarily changes their position even when they say they do, especially when actions speak louder than words and everything they try to do here leans toward that conclusion.


Helen did answer me regarding this, and that is sufficient, and what you believe or don't holds little weight or consequence with me.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on October 16, 2005, 08:51:52 AM
Quote

Well of course she means Penny, who else could she be referring to Simon.  I don't believe Penny has ever stated that she believed AN escaped.  

From her posts she leans towards a the theory that AA may not be FS.  But I believe she has stated that AN did not escape.  If I am wrong then I apologize Penny.



Dear Michael,

She could have meant Greg King. I have read posts he left  behind. And for the record, I had no idea that VirginiaMole was Annie, since I presume that is why you would assume that I should automatically know VirginiaMole meant Penny Wilson.

Regards,

Simon

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on October 16, 2005, 09:04:56 AM
Quote


Dear Michael,

She could have meant Greg King. I have read posts he left  behind. And for the record, I had no idea that VirginiaMole was Annie, since I presume that is why you would assume that I should automatically know VirginiaMole meant Penny Wilson.

Regards,

Simon



Simon,

You are right she could have meant Greg.  What some who post on this thread fail to realize is that their research is on going, and new information may come to light to change their previous opinions, and with the glut of information that has been made available within the last ten years since the fall of the "iron curtain" previously held opinions may change as data comes to light and is analyzed.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on October 16, 2005, 09:38:28 AM
Quote
I'd just like to get a very basic sense of where folks stand on the survivor issue. I'm NOT looking for discussion or debate, or even reasons why you feel the way you do -- just your opinion on these questions. Please, just answer yes or no!
1. Do you believe anyone survived?

2. Do you believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia Nikolaevna?


As for me, my answer to both questions is no.
Thanks,
Sarah


We have gotten off topic. The founder of this chat wished for very simply answers.
I am sorry for debating an unrelated topic here.

rs
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on October 16, 2005, 09:40:40 AM
Quote


Dear Michael,

She could have meant Greg King. I have read posts he left  behind. And for the record, I had no idea that VirginiaMole was Annie, since I presume that is why you would assume that I should automatically know VirginiaMole meant Penny Wilson.

Regards,

Simon



No, it was Penny, I never saw Greg say it.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on October 16, 2005, 09:45:17 AM
Virginia Mole of Lillibet [VML] is correct.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mgmstl on October 16, 2005, 09:52:37 AM
Quote

     This sort of comment and many others which other posters have remarked on, which add to the nasty tone that too often pervades these sort of threads ...
      MG, yes you are not the only guilty party but I must guess that you are not aware that of this capacity for 'trash talking'. It damages the validity of your arguements and makes you appear bitter and vulgar. I do hope that this is not an accurate description of you, so please consider the way that some of  your posts may be understood  -not as witty- but as abusive.


I have already expressed my views on FOTR which you may read in the "Books" thread.

rskkiya


Rskkiya,

As I said previously I am not getting into a tennis match with you, or into this trap of responding.  If you have something to say on topic, or on the question I asked you then fine.   However I see you have sent me a PM,
and I will respond through that.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on October 16, 2005, 10:02:44 AM
I wondered how long it would take my opinion poll to disintigrate into something like this...
::) :(  :P
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on October 16, 2005, 10:19:01 AM
Quote
I wondered how long it would take my opinion poll to disintigrate into something like this...
 ::) :(  :P



EVERY thread here turns out that way, regardless of original intention. It's happened to plenty of mine too.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on October 16, 2005, 10:19:49 AM
Quote
Virginia Mole of Lillibet [VML] is correct.



Thank you. Here is the evidence:

Quote
...One thing I can tell you absolutely and positively is that Gleb Botkin was no con-man.  He truly and strongly believed in Anastasia Manahan, and he never wavered in this belief. If she was Anastasia -- and I myself believe it likely that she was -- then Gleb and his sister Tatiana were her two truest friends....  


http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1075191962;start=75

also:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.talk.royalty/browse_thread/thread/b8d96eacf3b0d5a/7e5873fc32281168?lnk=st&q=%22Fate+of+the+Romanovs%22+Gutmaker+Anastasia+Anderson&rnum=2&hl=en#7e5873fc32281168

> 13. Do you consider yourself an expert on any particular topic in royal history?

Sticky question. I'd say "no" and "yes." "No" because I have a hard time
coming to grips with seeing myself as an "expert," but "yes" because I DO
have an outsized knowledge of the last year or two of the lives of the last
Imperial Family of Russia. And "yes" again because I have written (with Greg
King) The Fate of the Romanovs,
which I believe is the most up-to-date and
comprehensive look at the last few months of the Imperial Family, and which
includes quite a bit of previously unpublished/ unavailable material.



> 14. On a scale of 1-10 (1 being lowest and 10 being highest), what
> level of interest do you have for the Romanov assassination?


> 15. Do you believe any members of the Romanov dynasty were
> assassinated at Ekaterinburg Russia?


Yes.


> 16. Do you believe that G.D. Anastasia survived the assassination at
> Ekaterinburg?


Yes.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on October 16, 2005, 10:32:49 AM
Annie (much shorter than new name)
PLEASE stop hijacking the thread. I've suspended Michael G who refused to stop and said literally "so then suspend me". So I did.
I expect you ALL to behave. AM I CLEAR?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on October 16, 2005, 06:05:55 PM
I have removed any off topic comments.
Having expressed my answers to the questions posted here -  I will depart.



rs
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 17, 2005, 01:18:34 PM
I have once again pruned in this topic area (getting out my power tools with safety goggles, of course) to remove any items off topic to the discussion of Opinion Poll.

I do apologize if any of these removals offend.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on October 17, 2005, 01:26:28 PM
Pruning much appreciated!

(I hope you wore a mask, too, Lisa -- it was getting rather poisonous in here!)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 17, 2005, 01:56:19 PM
Quote
Pruning much appreciated!

(I hope you wore a mask, too, Lisa -- it was getting rather poisonous in here!)


I did!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Dominic_Albanese on October 22, 2005, 07:20:16 PM
1. Do you believe anyone survived?

I can’t say with certainty that they all died at the same time in the same room, but I've never read anything that makes me think that anyone could have ultimately survived that night.  Most likely they all died at the same time or shortly there-after in my opinion.

2. Do you believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia Nikolaevna?

No, I don't.

dca

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Elisabeth on October 23, 2005, 08:39:29 AM
1. No
2. No

I agree with Dominic's comments. Whether somebody survived the murder room but did not survive the night is a distinction without a difference. The point is, they all died that night.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on October 23, 2005, 10:01:42 AM
Thank you, Dominic & Elisabeth for returning this thread to its original focus!
;)

I also share Dominic's opinion.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on October 23, 2005, 06:58:02 PM
Hello, I am new here. I have been reading this discussion board with fascination and finally decided to sign up. I actually did my Master's degree on the Romanovs, especially the mystery of Anastasia - this was way back before the DNA testing. From the forensic evidence presented at the 40 year court case in Germany, I concluded that Anastasia Tchaikovsky Manahan aka Anna Anderson was  the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaievna. I have continued to study this matter and my opinion has not changed.

In answer to the survey -

1)Yes,  believe there were survivors.

2) Yes, I believe that AA was indeed AN.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on October 23, 2005, 07:22:22 PM
Quote
Hello, I am new here. I have been reading this discussion board with fascination and finally decided to sign up. I actually did my Master's degree on the Romanovs, especially the mystery of Anastasia - this was way back before the DNA testing. From the forensic evidence presented at the 40 year court case in Germany, I concluded that Anastasia Tchaikovsky Manahan aka Anna Anderson was  the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaievna. I have continued to study this matter and my opinion has not changed.

In answer to the survey -

1)Yes,  believe there were survivors.

2) Yes, I believe that AA was indeed AN.


Elena...
So you discredit the MDNA evidence?
Have you read The Fate of The Romanovs?

I'm not meaning to argue with you, I'm just curious about your reasons...

rs
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on October 23, 2005, 07:47:16 PM
Were there survivors of the execution?

I hope NOT!

Was Anna Anderson The GrandDuchess?

Certainly not.

I base this opinion on the most up to date and reliable information available regarding the execution, and on the DNA evidence. Of course should further evidence appear which contests this, and IF that evidence stands up to serious scrutiny, then I may be bound to change my impressions.

It all rather seems like a tempest in a teapot to me.

elf
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on October 23, 2005, 08:04:22 PM
Hi. I am happy to list my reasons; I just don't want to go into issues that are covered in other threads, or in any way disrupt the format of the discussion. I cannot remember if I have read Fate of the Romanovs; who wrote it, please? (I tend to rember things by author.) I don't understand why the DNA did not match up, although I have my ideas, which would take too long to go into here. My reasons for believing that AA was AN are based on all the other forensic evidence, such as Minna Becker's handwriting comparison, in which she found that no two people, not even identical twins, had such similar handwriting as AA and AN, the comparison of the ears, the feet, the hands by the court appointed expert. In the end of the case, AA was given the legal right to use the name of Anastasia Nicolaevna Romanovna, and while they did not rule that she was the daughter of the Tsar, the judges did decide that it could not be proved beyond doubt that AN had indeed died in 1917. This decision was because of the family testimony against her.

The family really was divided. She was recognized by Grand Duke Andrei, the jurist (who married the ballet dancer), Princess Xenia of Russia (Mrs Leeds), the Crown Princess of Prussia and various other cousins, usually the eccentric ones who were on the periphery of the rest of the family (and had nothing to lose.). As for courtiers, yes, Gleb Botkin was a bit of a character, but his sister, Tatiana Botkin, also ackowledged AA as being AN. (The Botkins were with the Imperial Family in Tobolsk and Dr Botkin was shot in the cellar with them) Lili Dehn, close friend of Alexandra Feodorovna, recognized AA as AN. Felix Dassel, bodyguard of MN and AN, acknowleged AA to be AN. There are others, but those are the main ones I can recall off the top of my head.

AA's/ AN's problem, IMO, was that she knew too much and did not know how to keep her mouth shut. She alienated too many people. Telling everyone that she had  been raped and then had a child by a Polish peasant was a big mistake. That was the fate worse than death for a Russian Grand Duchess and for those who loved her, like OA, it was better for her to be dead. The Anastasia that they had known and loved had died, for all intents and purposes. Anyway, AA was in such bad health, no one expected her to live long anyway. But it had nothing to do with money; it had everything to do with family honor of a kind which we today have little concept of. Sorry for the length of this message  and I realize  I am bringing up things discussed on other threads. There is much more I could say, but elsewhere  and at another time.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on October 23, 2005, 08:19:41 PM
THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by Greg King and Penny Wilson - a rather contraversial book. It has VERY exacting information on the day to day situation prior to the execution...guards/routine/food/who slept in what room/daily life..etc. The examination of the actual execution is VERY detailed.

It also has certain very weak points and some poor arguments as well - and it's examined and debated in the AP thread "Books about the Romanovs" here.

elf
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: penguin on October 23, 2005, 09:27:05 PM
hi, i'm new here

i think:

1. either they all escaped together or died together

2. no
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on October 24, 2005, 08:44:47 AM
rsskiya
For some reason, I am reminded of an old saying here in Texas. "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It will just frustrate you and annoy the pig..."  ;D

Not sure why this came to mind, but thought I'd share it.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on October 24, 2005, 06:50:52 PM
Quote
rsskiya
For some reason, I am reminded of an old saying here in Texas. "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It will just frustrate you and annoy the pig..."  ;D

Not sure why this came to mind, but thought I'd share it.

LOL :D ;D
DONT MESS WITH TEXAS!


I do hope that I am neither the singer nor the pig! ;D
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Georgiy on October 24, 2005, 10:15:15 PM
LOL, Rsskiya.

I haven't read much of this in full, and it's a long time since I read a book about AA, but as for the handwriting... Well, I can say that my writing as an adult in my early 30s is very different from what it was in my mid-teens. Sure there are some common characteristics, but it doesn't (to me) look like the same person wrote it, and yet it's my own writing.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: PssMarieAmelie on October 25, 2005, 05:24:08 AM
1.) Nope.

2.) Heck no!!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Alixz on October 25, 2005, 07:26:28 AM
1:  No, but I would like to.  Although it seems that the emotional scars would be hard to recover from in addition to the physical.  Horribly barbarous.

2:  No, but she was almost too bad to be false.  Why would anyone go around pretending to be someone she's not and then alienate those who supported her with such great regularity?

PS:  She certainly believed she was AN.  Where did she get all her private and personal information?

PPS:  I too, believe that the two bodies were just buried farther away.  Perhaps they planned to keep them for trophys (although I would think that Nicky's and Alexis's bodies would be the ones they would want for that).

Such brutality and desperation.  One of the best examples of "man's inhumaity to man".

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on October 25, 2005, 10:39:43 PM
In summation to the whole of the thread in terms of survivors, I keep coming back to this one line you have mentioned in your sharing Alixz, time and time again.

I also come to the bottom line of what you have termed that it was as an experience, horribly barbarous. It certainly stops all mental processes, in just thinking that any human being would be forced to go through such an unthinkable action, let alone survive any of it. I think they started here with the IF, and it continued as an act of defiance, and continued sentence as murder incorporated.

It is as you Alixz, have set into the only words I can think that can if possible define such actions as,

"brutality and desperation.  One of the best examples of "man's inhumaity to man".

I wonder even more, why that "brutality and insane desperation" continues. What on earth, in any man's heart and mind is so important, as to beat with wanton brutality, kill indiscriminately without conscience, justify such abherant actions, and in finality, prop up any government to say it is in the 'people's name'.

I've seen and gone through my share of the upmost extremes of violence, consoled countless victims of extreme violence and torture, whom also have ended up in terrible disabling issues, mentally and physically.

If AA was a con artist, then she was just as awful as those whom pulled the trigger by shooting the IF. It is a terrible inhuman thing to pull on any family or to extended family members.

There is nothing on earth so important, as to kill, maim, destroy, invalidate, any human heart, at any age, only so despots can control and continue to hold human beings hostage.

Your quite right Alixz, the emotional scars will, and do remain, forever. Recovery from such brutal onslaughts, are rare if ever.

I can't even begin to comprehend the horror they must have gone through, against the desperation of those whom believed they were saving Russia, by killing left and right, or offering AA in the end as a survivor, to tell her story...

Nothing of it makes any sense, to those whom are debating why someone would survive such horrific issues, as AA says she did.

But for those whom were staging the most brutal revolution, and ongoing scenerios, it had to be a lasting impression. So, thru their warped thinking, and crazed thoughts, I think this is where they, the revolutionists thought they could pull off the most brazen thrust of all. Remember, they were very desperate people, and had to make sure, that their actions produced the most trying and purposefilled acts of fear, and upset, so their needs could dominate with no ending.


Tatiana

Quote
1:  No, but I would like to.  Although it seems that the emotional scars would be hard to recover from in addition to the physical.  Horribly barbarous.

2:  No, but she was almost too bad to be false.  Why would anyone go around pretending to be someone she's not and then alienate those who supported her with such great regularity?

PS:  She certainly believed she was AN.  Where did she get all her private and personal information?

PPS:  I too, believe that the two bodies were just buried farther away.  Perhaps they planned to keep them for trophys (although I would think that Nicky's and Alexis's bodies would be the ones they would want for that).

Such brutality and desperation.  One of the best examples of "man's inhumaity to man".


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on October 26, 2005, 07:15:43 PM
    Anna Anderson/Anastatsia Manahan was - in my opinion - NOT a con artist  - she was a mentally disturbed woman.

Tatiana mentioned 'Brutality' and 'Cruelty'...Hmmm. There has been plenty of that since the world was new... appearing under many guises, titles and forms.

So everyone has their opinions... but I will hazzard a guess that Tatiana does not think that there were survivors...am I right?  ;D ;D ;D

elfwine
(i need a better icon)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on October 26, 2005, 08:40:09 PM
Dear Elfwine,

I don't have enough to ascertain if she was or was not mentally disturbed. She may well have been, but I thought at best to at least term that she may have been a 'con-artist'.

As to survivors, no, I think not.

Tatiana
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Alixz on October 27, 2005, 03:54:27 PM
Tania  From you post, I get the feeling you are postulating that AA may have been a Soviet "plant"?

I never thought of that, but I suppose that it would make sense to them to have someone apppear to be AN or any of the family if it would either tie up or liberate the supposed fortune of the Tsar in other countries.

Do you think she wa a willing or unwilling "plant" if that is what she was?  I don't suppose that we will ever know if it was a Soviet "plot" or not, but what a way to hurt those of the Imperial Family who were left.  To embroil them in this "survivor's" case and keep the whole story and the whole hurt alive.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on October 27, 2005, 06:56:26 PM
Quote
AGRBear,

You were going to show us something about the placement of the skeletons in the grave.



Quote
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/ColorBonesWeb.jpg)

Diagram of the position of the skeletons in the mass grave.

You can see how one body was placed on top of another....

I colorzied the bones, however, I'm not sure if I put the correct colors on the right bones.  

If you see anything I need to change or add colors to the bones not yet colorized, please,  let me know.  

On the leg bone of #3 is something that looks like part of a skull.  Does that belong to #8??

1. Anna S. Demidova
2. Dr. Botkin
3. GD Olga
4.  Nicholas II
5. GD Marie/Anastasia
6. GD Tatiana
7. Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexsi Trupp

I promised I'd do this on one of these threads but forgotten which one so I placed it here.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on October 27, 2005, 07:02:50 PM
Quote
Starting on p. 403 Penny and Greg tell us about the postion of the bodies in the grave.
 
Penny had earlier written about this in one of her posts.  I can't find it and it may have been one of posts she omited.
 
Anyway,  let's start with the body that they think was the first one placed in the grave.
 
Using the colorized diagram above.
 
I. #4 Nicholas II was thought to have been placed first.  Depth was 107 to 119 centimeters below the surface
II.  #9 Trupp was 100 to 120 centimeters  below the surface
III. #8 Kharitonov was 99 to 113 centimeters below the surface
IV.  #2 Botkin was 90 to 100 centimeters below the surface
V., VI, & VII. #3, #5, & #6 the three GD Duchess  were the same depth of 92 to  100 centimeters below the surface.
VIII. Demidova was at 90 centimeters
IX.  Alexandra was 79 to 96 centimeters
 
 
 
AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on October 27, 2005, 07:13:55 PM
I cannot except the possibility of AA acting as any sort of spy...IT'S ILLOGICAL!!!
Who would tell any sort of anti-soviet counter revolutionary secret to a mentally unstable woman who became notorious for highly irrational behaviour including incidents in which she raved in a public department store of one hosts abuse/wandered about naked on the rooves of houses/occasionally ran away from rooms that she had locked [escaping thru' a window- I guess] leaving her worried "court" behind...  to later be discovered wandering - dirty and dishevelled - living off berries found in the local woods??
The various elements of any Russian anti soviet government abroad do not seem to have taken her at all seriously.
   If she was a plant then it was a very silly plant indeed - more like a shrub...


elf :-X
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on October 28, 2005, 02:20:06 AM
Hello Alixz,

In America, we have a saying, 'there is no honor among theives'. That statement stays true where ever theives thrive...

The Soviet's were very, very, very, desperate people. They had to make sure at all cost, that they were first. History has proven that fact in many things they did...

They were crafty, anything but moral, and truth was far from their thoughts, their actions, their hearts. One of their greatest accomplishments was stealing the trust of their own citizens, so you know right there, it was not a country of safe haven. Countless emigrees have attested to that fact.

In offering a sound start of a government, they had not checks and balances, so if the people themselves were not part of the actual process of governing, then you know right there, tryanny was the Soviets choice of rule.

If you go into the files of esponage, you will find many skilled person's the communist used as decoys, whom took on the role of acting illogically, and so forth. How many heartaches did the KGB cost families across the world? How many did they take down in their own country? What we in the west, or any place else, might think as illogical, was not to the Soviets. They used anything, and anyone to gain what they wanted. They killed wantonly, without reason, and sometimes for reasons we will never understand.

To those who killed millions, causing unrest short and long term to one life, or to many countries, it was one of their many added skills. Remember, many of these agents took pride in causing extreme pain, and suffering.

How do you think the KGB got their start ? How many bodies did they bury, that we will never know ? They were in 'practice' over a wide country, and had many victims. They used children to the elderly to spy. Using this woman, was not out of the ordinary for the Soviets.

I don't think my thoughts are outlandish. Not to take them into consideration, would be overlooking the fact that the Soviets, were more than capable of doing, and completing such fiendish actions.

Tatiana  [Tania]







Quote
Tania  From you post, I get the feeling you are postulating that AA may have been a Soviet "plant"?

I never thought of that, but I suppose that it would make sense to them to have someone apppear to be AN or any of the family if it would either tie up or liberate the supposed fortune of the Tsar in other countries.

Do you think she wa a willing or unwilling "plant" if that is what she was?  I don't suppose that we will ever know if it was a Soviet "plot" or not, but what a way to hurt those of the Imperial Family who were left.  To embroil them in this "survivor's" case and keep the whole story and the whole hurt alive.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on October 28, 2005, 08:57:44 AM
What ever we think of Lenin/Stalin...violent,vicious and focused...they weren't mad...They would not have used this obviously unstable woman,AA/FS, for any spy work...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 28, 2005, 09:17:38 AM
Spy on whom?  ??? The Romanovs? Most of them did not accept her and besides what would that accomplish? If the reds were going to choose someone to impersonate Anastasia as their spy, why not pick someone who looked more like her, someone who was actually Russian and was willing and able to speak Russian (that is assuming she knew how to speak Russian to begin with as some claim, but which many people question), and didn't make some of the really obvious mistakes...

IMO, AA was a mentally disturbed paranoid-delusional woman, no different from hundreds of other such people in these hospitals at that time, who thought they were Napoleon, Cleopatra, King of England, and of couse Anastasia, etc. This is the most common type of delusion - delusion of grandeur. AA just happened to be able to fool some people into believing her... that's the only difference.

As for being a KGB plant, I think we are letting our imaginations run wild and getting a bit delusional ourselves here ... But that's just my own opinion of course  ;).
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on October 28, 2005, 10:43:14 AM
Dear Helen_A,

I used the words 'take into consideration', I did not say they, the soviets, did in effect take her on as a spy. That is not getting delusional. But that is as you say, only, in your opinion. I suppose on your website at yahoo, you will now have others whom at present visit or on the AP website, will make further slight remarks at my being an reactionary, etc. Your all entitled to your opinions, and we are certainly entitled with ours.

I have had friends both in the fbi, and the cia, who told me stories that would make your hair curl. There were stories of course they could not tell me, but they told me, nothing is or was considered out of this world, when one was dealing with the soviets.

So, while we may never know the full story, everything should be taken into consideration, till facts prove absolute truth. It's why we have these threads, to sift through every possible thought, situation, etc. I'm not attacking anyone, nor throwing words to be affrontive to you or anyone. I'm simply offering another way of addressing the subject. Why the inuendo of my being delusional?...

I wish you well, and most of all, peace of mind.  ;)

Tatiana  


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 28, 2005, 01:15:10 PM
Quote

 Why the inuendo of my being delusional?...


Dear Tania,

I am sorry you took my remark as being a personal attack against you - it wasn't. It was a general remark about the idea of AA being a Soviet spy - the theory which (among others) has been brought up several times by someone else on these threads before you even got here. I actually wasn't even thinking of you when I made this remark.

Helen
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on October 28, 2005, 01:32:10 PM
Dear Helen_A,

You are most kind to think of my person. I thank you most appreciatively, and understand the direction of your statement.

I enjoy your input, and thank you again for your responding to my post. I remain most,

Respectfully,

Tatiana

Quote

Dear Tania,

I am sorry you took my remark as being a personal attack against you - it wasn't. It was a general remark about the idea of AA being a Soviet spy - the theory which (among others) has been brought up several times by someone else on these threads before you even got here. I actually wasn't even thinking of you when I made this remark.

Helen

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on October 28, 2005, 08:37:42 PM
 >:( ??? >:( ??? >:( ??? >:( ??? >:( ??? >:( ??? >:( ???

I wish I had an icon of a head banging against a brick wall!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 28, 2005, 08:53:31 PM
 
Quote
I wish I had an icon of a head banging against a brick wall!



Here  you go: (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on October 28, 2005, 09:16:24 PM
You beat me to it! Careful what you wish for, it might just come true!

I actually had that as my avatar for several months.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on October 29, 2005, 12:39:52 AM
Quote



Here  you go:

thank you Helen! 8)

This is how I feel after I read yet another lecture on how bad bad bad bad the bolshevics were. OK?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)

  [ I admit that I'm in a rather bad mood. I was hit by a car as I was walking home this afternoon. I just left the emergency room. ]



an angry elf
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on October 29, 2005, 11:12:17 AM
First let me say,  I hope angry elf is alright and has no more than a few bruises.


Quote
I cannot except the possibility of AA acting as any sort of spy...IT'S ILLOGICAL!!!
Who would tell any sort of anti-soviet counter revolutionary secret to a mentally unstable woman who became notorious for highly irrational behaviour including incidents in which she raved in a public department store of one hosts abuse/wandered about naked on the rooves of houses/occasionally ran away from rooms that she had locked [escaping thru' a window- I guess] leaving her worried "court" behind...  to later be discovered wandering - dirty and dishevelled - living off berries found in the local woods??
The various elements of any Russian anti soviet government abroad do not seem to have taken her at all seriously.
    If she was a plant then it was a very silly plant indeed - more like a shrub...


elf :-X


If AA was a Soviet agent,  evidently,  they chose well since we're still discussing her even after all these years.

Don't you think that it's possible that a slightly crazy acting lady would be better for the part of GD Anastasia because it certainly was not expected that if anyone had suffered the lost of ten other people being killed around you would end up well balanced and show no effects.

Sorry Tania,  Helen's remarks were directed at my many "out of the box" speculaltions.  One of which I suggested that AA was incorporated into a German socialist revolutionary group who often frequented factorys where they knew disgruntled workers lived an breathed their hatred for the upper class "blood suckers".  If people knew their history, they would now that Berlin was a "hot bed" and frequently visited by everyone from Lenin to Felik Dzerzhinsky in those early years when they were forming a strong bond and establishing their agenda in Europe and Russia and hopefully the world.

I will return with URL's where this discussions has occured.

To me and by what I know and my own family has experienced,   it appears that Tania has a better grasp of reality about the Bolsheviki's true character who were not a nice sweet bunch of boys who's ambition were to be the modern "Robin Hoods" of Russia.

Felik Dzerzhinsky, the founder of the Soviet secret police, was very smart, crafty, and never dilusional about his power.  Unlike most of his underlings,  he  had been born in the Polish landed gentry and from a intelligentsia family.  From 1895 he was what we call a "professional" revolutionists.  He escaped his Siberian exile.  He knew Warsaw, St. Petersburg, Moscow and Siberian cities an towns and was placed in many of their prisions where he met his fellow revolutionaries who knew he was a rising "red" star.  He rose to power because he as good at that he did.  In fact, some think it was his brilliance that caused the Red Oct/Nov. Counter Revolution into a success for Lenin.  His success was because he attended everything down to the small details.  Dec. of 1917 he became chairman of the VECHEKA [Combating Counter-Revolution and Sabotage].  His agents stretched to every corner of Russia and into Europe and some think around the world.

If Dzerzhinsky thought GD Anastasia had escaped,  Dzerzhinsky would have been all over the problem like a wet blanket.  So,  please,  don't under estimate this man's abilities or his imagination.  And, don't think Tania's thought about AA being an agent as illogical and silly.

And,  if you think he didn't care about what was happening in the Romanov communities from Paris to China,  you are very wrong.  His special  organization known as the TRUST proves he was very much interested in all of their plans, plots and moves.

We don't have any evidence from the Russian archieves that tell us that AA was ever an agent so there is no proof.  However, there are hints that AA knew some top secret information which may have been given her by someone who fed her information.  I don't know enough about AA to be able to  pull out all of the information to prove the point that she knew secrets.  Perhaps others can.  But not here, of course.   The only one I've ever mentioned as the visit GD Anastasia's uncle Ernie's secret visit to Russia during WWI with a message from Kaiser Wilhelm II.

I've written more than I should have for this thread.

Sorry for pulling the simple "yes" and "no" thread away from what it's creator wanted.  But,  I felt I should defend Tania from those who continue their
head baning against >> (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)<<the wall of truth

AGRBear

PS  Why don't we continue this discussion over on "Grabbing At Straws"

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1103390507;start=375#398
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: P_Wadia on October 29, 2005, 01:57:07 PM
My answers. No and No.


What is mysterious to me is that quite a few people in this forum regard this matter as a "controversy". It is not.

If you think it's a controversy, just check any encyclopedia. For example, I checked the Encyclopedia Britannica (below Ref #1):

It claims it as a "fact" that Anastasia and all other family members were killed in 1918.
It claims it as a "fact" that Anna Anderson was the "most famous claimant" of Anastasia.

Historians are not even arguing about their deaths. As you know, Encyclopedia or authentic books follow a strict rule to articulate the degree of certainty whey they describe a historical event. If there is not sufficient evidence to conclude it,  expressions like “almost certain” or “controversial” are used.  For example, Ref#2 (below) explains how Amelia Earhart was killed. It says "Historians have claimed that she was almost certainly forced down and killed by the Japanese."

The encyclopedia does not state "Historians have claimed that Anna Anderson was almost certainly a claimant". It claims it as a "fact".  Because there is not even a single authentic evidence that suggests otherwise. Anna Anderson was a claimant. 100%.

On the other hand, some part is indeed controversial. For example, "Experts disagreed on whether the missing girl was Anastasia or Marie." But remember, missing remains are nothing to do with survival. I just cannot believe how so many people find any logical connection and/or causal relationship between two dots ("some bones are missing" and "There is a survivor").

Think about it. If your grandmother's tomb was dug by someone, and bones were missing, would it suggest her resuscitation? No!

Anyone is entitled to their opinion and conjecture, but do not state your opinion as a fact. Unfortunately, I see this type of posting quite often. And if you still believe the survivor story, you have to remember that it is as absurd as believing that Elvis is alive or George W Bush is an alien.  Even if you find a new "historical evidence" which contradicts the DNA result, the most straightforward interpretation is that the evidence is a hoax or you are simply misinterpreting the evidence.

Proof of burden is on those who object to the established fact, not on who support the already authenticated fact.

By the way, My rule: I regard any survivor theory without citation/evidence as an Internet troll, and recommend people to ignore it. (Unless it is clearly stated as a fantasy or a wild conjecture.)

*****************Ref #1 *****************************************
Encyclopædia Britannica    


Anastasia Nicholaevna Romanov

(1901–18), grand duchess of Russia, the youngest daughter of Czar Nicholas II and Empress Alexandra of Russia. After Russian revolutionaries murdered the czar and his family in July 1918, rumors began to circulate that his youngest daughter had escaped.  Hoaxes and legends about Anastasia persisted into the 1990s.

Anastasia Nicholaevna Romanov was born on June 18 (June 5 according to the Russian calendar of the time), 1901, at Peterhof near St. Petersburg, Russia. Her sickly younger brother, Alexis, was born three years later. Anastasia and Alexis had three older sisters, Olga, Tatiana, and Marie. Short and plump, Anastasia had blue eyes and reddish blond hair. She was lively and mischievous, with a stubborn streak and a quick sense of humor. She learned foreign languages easily and was a talented mimic.

When World War I began in 1914, Anastasia and her sister Marie were too young to be hospital nurses like their mother and two oldest sisters. Instead, they regularly visited a hospital near Peterhof to cheer the wounded soldiers. The fortunes of the Romanov family deteriorated during the war, culminating in the czar's abdication early in 1917 following a series of riots, and the family's being placed under house arrest in the Alexander Palace.

In August 1917 the revolutionary provisional government sent the family by train to Siberia. They lived under guard in Tobolsk until April 1918, when soldiers transferred them to a house in Ekaterinburg. Just after midnight on the morning of July 17, 1918, the family, their doctor, three servants, and Anastasia's dog, Jemmy, were taken to the basement and shot.

The killers announced that the czar was dead but that the rest of the family had been taken somewhere safe. One report said that the empress and the children had gone to America. Not until 1926 did the Russian government admit to having executed the entire family. Rumors persisted that one or more of the czar's children had escaped, and several women claimed to be Anastasia.

The most famous claimant emerged after German police rescued a young woman who tried to drown herself in Berlin, Germany, in 1920. She carried no identification and had apparently lost her memory. While hospitalized she began to say she was Anastasia, whom she resembled enough to confuse some who had known the grand duchess. A Berlin newspaper identified her in 1927 as a brain-damaged Polish factory worker named Franziska Schanzkowska. Franziska's brothers and sisters said they were not certain the woman was their sister.

The woman later moved to the United States under the name Anna Anderson; after her marriage to an American she was called Anastasia Manahan. A French play in the mid-1950s and a Hollywood film starring Ingrid Bergman in 1956 drew popular attention to Anna's claim to be the lost grand duchess, which no one could prove or disprove. Her story found believers in such reputable biographers as Peter Kurth (‘Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson', 1983) and James Blair Lovell (‘Anastasia: The Lost Princess', 1991). After Anna Anderson's death in 1984, Kurth's book was the basis for the 1986 film ‘Anastasia: The Mystery of Anna'. An animated movie made in 1997 drew loosely on Anna Anderson's story.

In Russia the search for the Romanov remains continued and in July 1991 the bones of nine human corpses and a dog were found in a mine pit outside Ekaterinburg. The bones were subjected to DNA tests, which identified them as the czar's family and associates. Young Alexis and one of his sisters were missing, possibly having been burned shortly after they were killed. Experts disagreed on whether the missing girl was Anastasia or Marie.

Further DNA tests in 1994 confirmed that Anna Anderson had been related to the Schanzkowski family and not to the Romanovs. Another claimant, Eugenia Smith, still alive in 1995, declined offers to have her blood tested for comparison with surviving Romanovs.

"Anastasia." Britannica Student Encyclopedia. 2005. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 25 Oct. 2005 <http://www.search.eb.com/ebi/article-9309838>.

*****************(Ref #2)**************************************
Encyclopædia  Britannica

Amelia Earhart

 
(1897–1937). One of the most intriguing mysteries of the 20th century is: What happened to Amelia Earhart? In June 1937 she and her copilot, Lieutenant Commander Fred J. Noonan, left Miami, Fla., on an around-the-world flight attempt in a twin-engine Lockheed aircraft. On July 2 the plane vanished near Howland Island in the South Pacific. The world waited with fascination as search teams from the United States Army and Navy, along with the Japanese navy, converged on the scene. But not she, Noonan, or the plane was ever found.

As time went on, questions were raised about the flight. Was it simply an around-the-world adventure, or was she perhaps sent to spy on Japanese war preparations for the United States government? Historians have claimed that she was almost certainly forced down and killed by the Japanese.
Amelia Earhart was born on July 24, 1897, in Atchison, Kan. During World War I she worked as a military nurse in Canada, and for several years she was a social worker in Boston. She first gained fame in 1928 when she was the first woman to fly across the Atlantic Ocean—even though only as a passenger. Four years later, in May 1932, she made a solo flight across the Atlantic, followed by several solo long-distance flights in the United States. She was greatly interested in the development of commercial aviation and took an active role in opening the field to women. For a time Earhart served as an officer of the Luddington line, which operated one of the first regular passenger services between New York City and Washington, D.C. In January 1935 she made a solo flight from Hawaii to California.

In 1931 Earhart had married publisher George P. Putnam. After her disappearance he wrote her biography, Soaring Wings, which was published in 1939.

"Earhart, Amelia." Britannica Student Encyclopedia. 2005. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 25 Oct. 2005 <http://www.search.eb.com/ebi/article-9274101>.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on October 29, 2005, 02:00:19 PM
But everyone knows Amelia was actually Tatiana, right Helen?;)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Rachael89 on October 29, 2005, 03:11:35 PM
Sorry to intrude but surely this thread has went badly off course again? It's a worthy subject being discussed so we could probably start a new thread about it, if there isn't one already!

The original questions are:

"Do you beleive there were any survivors?"

"Do you beleive Anna Anderson was Anastasia?"

I'm sorry if anyway feels this is an intrusion on their discussion.

Rachael
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 29, 2005, 03:59:58 PM
Quote
....you have to remember that it is as absurd as believing that ... George W Bush is an alien.


I don't know about anyone else here, but I am leaning towards the idea that George W Bush is indeed an alien.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on October 29, 2005, 04:13:21 PM
Helen  :D
No...George W Bush is not an alien - if he were one then he would be a much sharper dresser and be able to pronounce certain words correctly!... ;)

a bruised elf

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on October 29, 2005, 04:17:37 PM
 agrebear posted this earlier  - in part ...


"But,  I felt I should defend Tania from those who continue their
head baning against >> (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif)<<the wall of truth"

AGRBear


I don't think that it's 'a wall of truth' - it's a 'wall of very intense devotional belief' on your part ...  but not truth.


one sore bruised elf
:D

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Georgiy on October 30, 2005, 03:22:39 AM
Well, the alien one is surely one of the more plausible explainations for George Bush! The old-hands at the forum know that of course Tatiana and Amelia are one and the same! We had a fun thread on that ages ago! ;)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Belochka on October 30, 2005, 03:46:36 AM
Perhaps the initiator of this thread sarahelizabethii may offer us a summation as it stands so far?

It would be interesting to know the progressive result.  ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on October 30, 2005, 09:12:59 AM
Good idea, Belochka -- I'll tally up a list of the votes this afternoon...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on October 30, 2005, 09:30:49 AM
Question 1 - Do you belive anyone survived?
Yes:
RealAnastasia
Rachael89
Candice
Robby
Pentetorri
Colleen
bigbi
Sian_Turner
elena_maria_vidal
No:
SarahElizabethII
Annie (and her teenagers)
Kimberly
Belochka
FA
Helen_A
Margarita Markovna
LisaDavidson
joan_d
reashka
rskkiya
Jay-Ro-Mee
Bob A.
eatonexile
Merrique
Phil_tomaselli
Vicki
Lanie
Georgiy
Olga_Anne
Romanov_Fan19
Marialana
Louis_Charles
Lexi4
Michael G.
Mobar
Denise
cscomo
Dominic_Albanese
elfwine
Grand Duchess Kimberley
Alixz
Tania
P_Wadia

Sorry, Bear -- I didn't wade through your entire post to extract your answer. Post a yes/no, and I'll add it to the tally...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on October 30, 2005, 10:42:15 AM
Question 2 - Do you believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia Nikolaevna?
(Obviously, this only applies to people who answered 'yes' to Question 1!)
Yes:
RealAnastasia
Rachael89
Pentetorri
bigbi
Sain_Turner
elena_maria_vidal

If I've overlooked anyone on either question, PM me and I'll add you to the tally.  :)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on October 30, 2005, 12:03:25 PM
I can see by the adult posts, that it is 'fun' to make fun, and glad you all get off in making fun of others. Thank you for being so thought filled, and considerate  :) of others, and their feelings.

Your Great role models  :-[  for the children who read these posts! Now they know what they can look forward to, but may be more reticent to post, since opinions are not really tolerated...and making fun is the thing to do, and participate in, no matter what the expense of others...

Tatiana



Quote
Well, the alien one is surely one of the more plausible explainations for George Bush! The old-hands at the forum know that of course Tatiana and Amelia are one and the same! We had a fun thread on that ages ago! ;)

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 30, 2005, 01:53:51 PM
Quote
I can see by the adult posts, that it is 'fun' to make fun, and glad you all get off in making fun of others. Thank you for being so thought filled, and considerate  :) of others, and their feelings.

Your Great role models  :-[  for the children who read these posts! Now they know what they can look forward to, but may be more reticent to post, since opinions are not really tolerated...and making fun is the thing to do, and participate in, no matter what the expense of others...

Tatiana





Tatiana: I think you need to lighten up. The people who come here to post do so for a variety of reasons, but I don't know anyone who comes here to be a role model. Some of us enjoy hanging out with our friends and engaging in occasional wit.

You may not appreciate someone's humor, but if that's the case, you can simply ignore the remark or the person who said it.

I also think it's not a good idea to generalize about groups of people. The "adults" here are a mixed bag, as are "the children". We are all individuals here, and I think it's unjust of anyone to form an opinion about one group of people based on the behavior of one or two, don't you?

I am so over hearing how opinions are not tolerated here. If that we the case, Rob and I could just sit at our PCs all day and delete every post with which we disagree. Guess what, we don't.

Finally, this is very off topic so please resume the discussion of the Opinion Poll.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on October 30, 2005, 02:29:02 PM
Ok Lisa,

To wit, to wit...

;D

"Tally No, No"

;)


I'm getting lighter all the time...lol !
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on October 30, 2005, 04:01:47 PM
Tania ....
Georgiy is a FINE role model! He is even tempered, honest, open, patient and an orthodox believer. He is not critical of people who do not agree with him and as far as I know he has never posted any personal, vulgar or abusive comments about anyone!

What's wrong with that? :-/

this elf is getting better. :-*

OH Sorry!  I am 'off topic' ...
Well, it appears that  -of those who responded to the questions- the majority do not accept the possibility of any "survivors" or the notion that  AA was AN.

So what's next?

8)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on October 30, 2005, 05:39:01 PM
elfwine,  I am glad you are getting better.

Close the opinion poll???

There are more than 2,600 who haven't responded.  

Golly, I hadn't realized there were as of today 2,661 members and this doesn't even count the visitors.


AGRBear






Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Kyuriko on October 30, 2005, 05:54:11 PM
1. YES - However, I only believe Anastasia survived.  As far as the whole Alexei thing goes, I'm undecided so that doesn't count towards this.

2. YES - Though I'm not 100% convinced, I do believe that Anna Anderson was Anastasia Nicholaievna.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on October 30, 2005, 07:50:40 PM
Quote
So what's next?


Well, I did start another poll...

Opinion poll -- FS=AA?
(http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1130687676)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Georgiy on October 30, 2005, 08:01:51 PM
Tania, my apologies for putting in a 'childish' comment. I guess everyone has their opinions on George Bush, but seeing as I don't live in America, I just get the pictures that are painted by the press for us, and I know how untrue the press can be at times. Ultimately it was wrong of me to judge someone else, and is a sin I often fall into. :(

As for the Tatian/Amelia Earhart one, there is a long story behind that one. It's in the Tatiana pages, - Helen Azar noticed a striking resemblence between the two of them in certain poses, and (partly by way of making fun of the more ridiculous escape stories) we proposed that Amelia Earhart was in fact Tatiana - though of course it is in no way true.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on October 30, 2005, 08:24:33 PM
Dear Georgiy,

Apology accepted.  :-*

I know it's off topic, but if it's on George Bush, I can't type anything, because it would be unprintable  ;D
I suppose that's a sin right there, but, I'm trying to be truthful...lol.

Look, I don't mind a joke, now and then. But when it comes to me or anyone being the brunt of a joke, and others join in, then it would leave anyone not feeling too good, especially if they don't know what the joke, or story is about, past or presently. It just took me back, that anyone could or would waste not only words, but others on the site, to make folly of another.Now, I don't resemble Amelia, and I don't resemble Tatiana, but I wish I had half of their courage.  :D They were pretty brave women, don't you think? I know they would have loved this website as well !!!!

Well, now that we have that squared away, I'm hopefully not lookin forward to receiving any more slights, but hopefully, real regard on posting replies to actual thread questions, etc.

I hope that we can maintain our opinions, and still try to be mature in how we addres each other, and the subject matters on these threads.

Oh by the way, Elfwine, is absolutely correct in his last post about you : "He is even tempered, honest, open, patient and an orthodox believer. He is not critical of people who do not agree with him and as far as I know he has never posted any personal, vulgar or abusive comments about anyone!"

So, you will accept my apology ?  :-[

Tatiana


Quote
Tania, my apologies for putting in a 'childish' comment. I guess everyone has their opinions on George Bush, but seeing as I don't live in America, I just get the pictures that are painted by the press for us, and I know how untrue the press can be at times. Ultimately it was wrong of me to judge someone else, and is a sin I often fall into. :(

As for the Tatian/Amelia Earhart one, there is a long story behind that one. It's in the Tatiana pages, - Helen Azar noticed a striking resemblence between the two of them in certain poses, and (partly by way of making fun of the more ridiculous escape stories) we proposed that Amelia Earhart was in fact Tatiana - though of course it is in no way true.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Georgiy on October 30, 2005, 08:28:35 PM
There's nothing to forgive! But as we say, God forgives and I forgive.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Belochka on October 30, 2005, 11:43:56 PM
Thanks sarahelizabethii for providing the summation.

It would be interesting to break the tally down further, but we are sadly limited here by our anonymity. 8)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 30, 2005, 11:46:54 PM
Quote
Thank you for being so thought filled, and considerate  :) of others, and their feelings. ...and making fun is the thing to do, and participate in, no matter what the expense of others...


Does George W post here too?  ???  :o
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Belochka on October 31, 2005, 12:55:01 AM
Quote

Does George W post here too?  ???  :o


Well we do know that he read Radzinsky's Alexander II, so maybe?  ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 31, 2005, 09:30:20 AM
Quote

...we do know that he read Radzinsky's Alexander II   ::)


Was it the Little Golden Book version?  

(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/8553/littlegolden9ra.jpg)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on October 31, 2005, 10:45:49 AM
We're far off topic, but then George may not be a survivor...but his underlings post, I've heard.
Time we all get back on topic !

Tatiana

Quote

Does George W post here too?  ???  :o

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on October 31, 2005, 10:47:47 AM
You have strayed WAY too far OT. ENOUGH.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 31, 2005, 11:43:19 AM
Quote
You have strayed WAY too far OT. ENOUGH.


Sorry FA and everyone, mea culpa! Won't happen again.   :)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on October 31, 2005, 12:33:41 PM
Quote
It would be interesting to break the tally down further, but we are sadly limited here by our anonymity. 8)


Well, what did you have in mind...?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Douglas on October 31, 2005, 05:19:23 PM
There is a lot more eye witness evidence that Flying Saucers are real and from outer space than to believe that anyone could  have survived that night in the cellar.

Douglas 8)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on October 31, 2005, 05:55:47 PM
There was rumors that one or all nine of the prisioners were taken to the train at Ekaternburg where they were place in a particular "carriage".  One of the testimonies was that of Vera Karnaukovaya who lived in Perm at that time.

FILE ON THE TSAR p. 324:

>>When I learned from the newspapers and part sources of the shooting of the former soverign in Ekaterinburg, I was very intesrted in the case, and in order to know for sure what did happen around 20 July in Ekaterinburg, I turned to my brother, Fyodor Nikolayevich Lukoyanov, former chairman of the Regional Committe of the Cheka.  I turned to him because he held a high and responsible post in the Ural Region.... My brother said it was not easy to talk about what happened in mid-July at the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg, and he could simply assure me that only the former soverign was killed at Ekaterinburg, and the rest of the family, including the former tsarina, were transferred from Ekaterinburg on the train which carried all the treasure.  There was a passenger carriage amongst the wagons that held the treasure, and it was in tht carriage that the imperial family were held.  The train ws parked at Perm Station II, and strictly guarded..."

This is second hand information.

What do we know about Fyodor Lukoyanov?  

Did anyone else, who was not part of the CHEKA,  indicate that one, a few or all the Romanovs, accept Nicholas II, was seen in route to the train, getting on board of the train, saw them on the train or made reference about the train headed to or in Perm?

Remember, this thread is about the Perm Stories.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Belochka on October 31, 2005, 09:46:44 PM
Quote

Well, what did you have in mind...?


Females vs. Male

Russian vs. non Russians

Adults vs. younger set
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on November 01, 2005, 06:06:30 AM
Well, then, whatever we're comfortable divulging...

Me:
Female
non-Russian
Adult
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on November 01, 2005, 10:45:25 AM
I never laughed so much as I have at seeing a request for, 2,600 to respond yet, to be involved on the opinion poll of survivors for a yes or no vote taking.   :D
.
That being there are 2,661 members, and that does not count visitors, we would never be finished with the polls.
Most people will not go further in giving personal specifics, let alone what country they are from, etc.

Over all on most of the threads, there seem to be more onlookers, than real people of involvement. I think we should be happy we receive the fine dedicated input we receive to date.

I think just the regular yes or no should sufficith.

So my vote remains :

No
No

Tatiana



Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: jolie on November 01, 2005, 11:05:37 AM
no
no




Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on November 01, 2005, 06:39:53 PM
Quote
Well, then, whatever we're comfortable divulging...

Me:
Female
non-Russian
Adult



Ok

No survivors at all

Elfwine - Vital statistics

Adult
Russophilic (English in nationality)
Gender ?
hmmm.....
That will remain my little secret ;)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on November 01, 2005, 06:49:06 PM
No
No

rskkiya
an expat brit
an adult female human being
a socialist
a capricorn
(currently rskkiya is the primary servant of two lovely pusscats!)
Was there anything else?
;)


rskkiya
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Denise on November 01, 2005, 06:50:17 PM
Quote

Females vs. Male

Russian vs. non Russians

Adults vs. younger set


Ok.  I'm game.

Female
Non-Russian (American mid-western to be exact!)
Adult (most of the time!)

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on November 01, 2005, 06:55:22 PM
No and No


Non-Russian, southeastern US
43 years old, female
disillusioned with ALL politics
also own cats
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on November 01, 2005, 06:57:06 PM
Hello Denise and Annie!

Denise
How's your lovely daughter doing?
I love her icon!

Annie
Cats Rule
(dogs drool) ;)

rs
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 01, 2005, 09:48:48 PM
Simon, native New Yorker living in North Carolina, working as a professor of English/theatre, actor, director, trained as a historian. Middle-aged, assuming that I am going to live to be 100. Speak a minimal amount of Russian, more German. Anglo/Irish by heredity, no ax to grind regarding either Imperial Russia or the Bolsheviks. Been working on the Romanovs for most of my post-12 life.

I actually met Anna Andersen, too.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Belochka on November 01, 2005, 10:27:50 PM
Quote

Females vs. Male

Russian vs. non Russians

Adults vs. younger set


1. Female

2. Russian origin

3. Mature adult

Thanks to all the posters who are willing to participate with this breakdown in statistics as received by sarahelizabethii [/i]  :)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: scothistle on November 01, 2005, 10:35:13 PM
I believe what happened in the cellar at Impatiev house was so brutal and executed with such horrific violence that no one survived the massacre.Not even the family dog.Terrible,terrible end that noone should have to suffer.-D- Iam 48,American of Scot/Brit ancestry,woman,who kind of likes cats ...felines are unpredictable in many instances :-/
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 02, 2005, 12:36:46 AM
No and no.

Female, non Russian, adult.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Kimberly on November 02, 2005, 02:33:17 AM
No and NO.I am a 47 year old English laydee and none too fond of cats ;) (sorry, they scare me)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Merrique on November 02, 2005, 06:27:01 AM
No and No.

I'm a 32 year old midwestern American woman so I guess that makes me an adult,most of the time.
I'm also a virgo and fellow kitty lover.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 02, 2005, 06:42:09 AM
No and No!! I think it was virtually impossible for any one to escape that awful affair!! I am a 23 year old English male who doesn't claim to be a laydee  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Vicki on November 02, 2005, 01:54:48 PM
1. Female
2. Non-Russian
3. Adult
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: PssMarieAmelie on November 03, 2005, 05:09:18 AM
Female
Non-Russian(Australian with mostly Irish/German heritage)
Younger set(13 and a fellow kitty lover--have 3 and about to adopt another one).


My three cents.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sian_Turner on November 03, 2005, 06:42:02 AM
Female
British
43
(allergic to cats altho I love them and dogs)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mie on November 03, 2005, 08:54:36 AM
1. I think that nobody escaped... of course it is kind of magical to believe that somebody survived..

2. definitely AA was NOT Anastasya
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 03, 2005, 12:37:35 PM
There is another thread which talks about sightings of the IF after 16 July 1918:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1091994509;start=0
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 09, 2005, 06:15:25 PM
Quote


Etonexile...I'm becoming increasingly angry at you...Stop this stupidity. Don't laugh at us. If you think that all of them died, fine. We didn't think you are a bad guy or something like this. You may think exactly what you wants to think. BUT DON'T OBLIGE US TO THINK THE SAME WAY THAN YOU. STOP IT. You coudln't refrain yourself isn't it? If you don't believe that Anastasia, Alexei, Tatiana or anyone else survived, don't write in this thread. Right? I don't write in threads I don't care about... >:(
We'll keep discussing this issue, even if you don't want it. Believe what you wanted to believe, but let us to do the same! Pleaseeee!!!

I don't want to argue with you, etonexile...Indeed! You force me to do it.  :-/

RealAnastasia.

P.S: Oh! Shame on me! I don't believe in Santa Claus. But I believe in God! What a bad Bolshevik I am! And no...Modern world is not for me. I'm a lady of "darker ages" who still believe in family, God, friendship values and such foolishnes out of fashion.


Real Anastasia, you are not alone!!!!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Belochka on November 10, 2005, 12:44:20 AM
Hi sarahelizabethii,

Maybe it is time to collate these next set of results for your survey?

Thanks!
;D
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on November 10, 2005, 01:16:55 AM
British male...age 8 (32 on a bad day,divorced,one son,9,Eric,total genius...he'll tell you so himself)...lives with Teddy (a.k.a.,"Tedders" and various sundry noms de guerre) in the house of our Granny in deepest,darkest Norfolk(which looks a lot like Tucson,AZ these days)...we have Old Pete the gardener...he isn't nearly as bad as he looks...erm...well...not by much....Tedder's evil twin Tyrell often swings by...as does Mr. Tiny...a chum from Teddy's prison time...
We all play happily in Granny's garden...we wear folded paper hats,carry wooden swords...and fight EVIL...when we recognize it...it can be a tricky beast...oh,yes....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on November 10, 2005, 01:59:49 AM
"Life Is Not A Harlequin Romance"...I have the t-shirt....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Rachael89 on November 10, 2005, 02:30:34 AM
Thankyou for that wonderful insight into your life etonexile...it was most interesting....

Rachael
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Alixz on November 10, 2005, 06:57:15 AM
Wow, its been a while since I read this thread and how it has changed.

I never ever thought of AA being a Soviet "plant" (shrub) before readin Tania's post.

I guess I missed the other thread.  I love anything that starts a "tingle" in the back of my mind and forces me to think "out side the box".

All proofs began as theories.

But what a way to confuse the issue!  And if, AA was the least mentally unstable to begin with, what a way to get the most out of her disability.

FA:  I know off topic.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 10, 2005, 08:41:59 AM
A life without romance? VERY DULL. But we digress.....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 10, 2005, 11:37:03 AM
FILE ON THE TSAR by Summers and Mangold p. 323:

>>The CID linked Perm with that persistent story about the train at Ekaterinburg station -- the one seen on 17 July with it blinds down, and believed to have been carrying members of the imperial family.<<

CID was the Criminal Investigating Division under General Gaida.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 10, 2005, 11:52:28 AM
Quote
At the risk of getting rocks thrown my direction    ;D ;D......
Does anyone know if there was a tunnel under or near the Impatiev House? I just finished re-reading Shay McNeal's book. <dodging rocks>(i kept an open mind this time) and find several of her theories worthy of discussion.
She mentions a tunnel. It seems that would be something that someone somewhere know about...if there was a tunnel through which the IF could have escaped.


Just a few days ago,  I asked a person who knows a great deal about Ekaterinburg.  I presented your question about the tunnel under the Ipatiev House.   This person wasn't sure if there was one right under the Ipatiev House but there were many minning tunnels under the city because of the many mines in and around the city in 1918.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on November 10, 2005, 04:11:39 PM
Alixz,

Please not to ask for merde to make the 'shrub' grow  ;D

Regards,

Tatiana
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: catt.sydney on November 10, 2005, 07:12:45 PM
No survivors at all in my opinion and under no circumstances could Anna Anderson/Anastasia Manahan been a grand duchess.

I am -
Living on the third planet in this solar system
homo sapiens sapiens
(theoretically - I am capable of bearing live offspring)

Catt

I enjoy a nice thick privet hedge to most shrubs.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on November 11, 2005, 07:15:14 PM
Quote
A life without romance? VERY DULL. But we digress.....


That's what's so great about history...we should all just invent facts that make us happy... ;)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on November 11, 2005, 07:27:01 PM
Quote
No survivors at all in my opinion and under no circumstances could Anna Anderson/Anastasia Manahan been a grand duchess.

I am -
Living on the third planet in this solar system
homo sapiens sapiens
(theoretically - I am capable of bearing live offspring)

Catt
 

I enjoy a nice thick privet hedge to most shrubs.


Tedders and I prefer a thick privet hedge as well...makes for a romping fine club house and center for planning world domination...As we are near the high street in our hedge...we can see the legs of many folk who are walking to jobs,school,and the shops....we feel power....oh,yes....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on November 12, 2005, 11:52:21 AM
Ok I admit that I have not been keeping up with this thread...
Nevertheless regarding 'secret tunnels' here are my three Kopecs...
*Why would Citizen Ipartiev build his comfy, upperwardly mobile house on top of a secret tunnel?  :-/
*If the tunnel was not there, but was later dug by the IF - here are a few questions...
How? With spoons?
Where were they depositing all that dirt? :-/

Heads Up!
Tunnels are not just holes. Anyone trying to construct one would need a good deal more than time and a ladle.

LOL
rs

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on November 12, 2005, 01:46:47 PM
Quote
How? With spoons?
Where were they depositing all that dirt? :-/
 

LOL
rs



Ha, it reminds me of when everyone used to say that about Hogan's Heroes! :D
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on November 12, 2005, 07:05:19 PM
Simple....the dirt was being put down the toilet...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on November 13, 2005, 08:38:29 AM
All that boggy dirt down the WC? :-X
Yuck - teddy - yuc!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 13, 2005, 02:17:16 PM
If you can't enter the fenced and guarded grounds of the Ipatiev House from ground level than what would have been another way?  

Underground???  

The city was over minning tunnels. SOOOOOoooooo,  if someone, like the Germans or British or independent rescuers loyal to Nicholas II,  were setting up a resue, wouldn't they consider digging a tunnel since the city was sitting on top of minning tunnels?

I doubt there was any digging  done by the IF  or their servents so there wasn't anyone  flushing down dirt in a toliet in the Ipatiev House in July of 1918.  Then, again, we don't know everything that occured in the Ipatiev House.  

This would not have been the first time rescues were attempted by a tunnel.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 13, 2005, 02:47:04 PM
You may grow weary of me talking about looking for the truth, but the truth of is it,  I am looking for the truth just as I assume you are.

This subject is about the Perm Story/Stories and I assume if  there was an escape or the Reds took part of the IF to Perma it is possible there might be some truth to these stories.

Annie and others may not find these stories interesting but I do and so do others.

Summers and Mangold FILE ON THE TSAR p. 333:

>>There was a mass of consistent testimony about an incident at Siding 37 on the railway line northwest of Perm.  First the evidence of a signalman, Maxim Grigoryev, whose usual routine was interrupted by an exciting episode one chilly day in autumn 1918.  He did not remember the exact date, but other witnesses fix it as on or about 21 Sept [1918], Grigoryev stated:

I recall that at about 12 noon I was at Siding 37 when someone told me that Red Army men had caught a daughter of the tsar in the woods and had taken her to the sentry boss near the siding.  I ran over to see.  A young girl, who looked about 18 to 19 years old, was sitting in the sentry box, near the stove, in a chair.  She was not crying, but yoou could see she was utterly miserable.  She was wearing a shirt--I do not recall the colour--and a white blouse with red bloodstains on the chest.  She had no scarf on her head.  Her hair was croped, and a dark colour.  There was blood on her face...<<

AGRBear

PS  Annie must have removed her post which was just above this post.  Annie claimed I wasn't searching for the truth and that she was growing tired of me claiming that I was.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on November 13, 2005, 02:51:43 PM
Quote
All that boggy dirt down the WC? :-X
Yuck - teddy - yuc!


This might in part explain Tedders poor showing at the local garden fete....sigh.....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 13, 2005, 02:56:01 PM
I'm sure if Teddy was there and a plot was being made and a tunnel needed to be dug, Teddy would have gladly gotten his paws dirty just like bear.  The rest of you, if you would have been there,  might have used shovel, picks and tools which were invented to help humans dig tunnels :)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on November 13, 2005, 06:45:57 PM
Quote
I'm sure if Teddy was there and a plot was being made and a tunnel needed to be dug, Teddy would have gladly gotten his paws dirty just like bear.  The rest of you, if you would have been there,  might have used shovel, picks and tools which were invented to help humans dig tunnels :)

AGRBear


Ok Agr... :-/
 Where are the IF going to get the tools for this "magical tunnel" - are picks & shovels hidden in their underclothes?

  Or did they simply ask their guards for large beams of wood, shovels and other excavation devices politely?

Hmmmm?

LOL
rs
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on November 14, 2005, 09:10:22 AM
Quote

Ok Agr... :-/
  Where are the IF going to get the tools for this "magical tunnel" - are picks & shovels hidden in their underclothes?

   Or did they simply ask their guards for large beams of wood, shovels and other excavation devices politely?

Hmmmm?

LOL
rs


T-heezer...there you go...being logical....the answer surely is...spoons....they would have used spoons... ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 14, 2005, 10:24:32 AM
Quote
If you can't enter the fenced and guarded grounds of the Ipatiev House from ground level than what would have been another way?  

Underground???  

The city was over minning tunnels. SOOOOOoooooo,  if someone, like the Germans or British or independent rescuers loyal to Nicholas II,  were setting up a resue, wouldn't they consider digging a tunnel since the city was sitting on top of minning tunnels?

I doubt there was any digging  done by the IF  or their servents so there wasn't anyone  flushing down dirt in a toliet in the Ipatiev House in July of 1918.  Then, again, we don't know everything that occured in the Ipatiev House.  

This would not have been the first time rescues were attempted by a tunnel.

AGRBear


If I had been in that house and wanted to escape,  I would have used a spoon and butter knife if need be to get my children to a safe place.   But then,  I'm talking about myself who was raised differently than the members of the Royal Family who   weren't  accustomed to doing things on their own so  I doubt they did any digging or even thought about doing it themselves.

Those who might have found shovels and picks might have been the British or the French or the Japense or the Americans or some small group of loyalists or Whites working on their own .....  

The possibility, the opportuniity and the means were there just as there already were the minning tunnels.  

Ekaterinburg had capable miners with maps of the old mines.  And since so many were in need of jobs to feed their families,  I doubt anyone ploting this kind of escape,  would have had any difficulty finding them.

I believe there is a museum in Ekaterinburg which displays not only the maps but all the different precious metals and gems which help create Ekaterinburg into a thriving prosperous town in the first place.

There was probably some active mines in the area.

We're more familar with the abandon ones like the Four Brothers Mine.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: stepan on November 14, 2005, 03:14:09 PM
The idea of an escape through a tunnel comes originally from the book "Rescuing the Czar" by William McGarry. It talked about an"old abandoned tunnel that formerly led from the Ipatiev house to the medical office of a foreign consulate a thousand feet away".
Shay MCNeal wrote about this in her book "The plots to rescue the Czar."  Its all  a piece of fiction I think but It´s interesting to use one´s imagination of possible escape theories. Perhaps there were a lot of mines and tunnels in and arouned Jekaterinburg so perhaps this idea wasen´t so farfetched for the author of Rescuing the Czar.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 15, 2005, 02:44:07 PM
Quote
The idea of an escape through a tunnel comes originally from the book "Rescuing the Czar" by William McGarry. It talked about an"old abandoned tunnel that formerly led from the Ipatiev house to the medical office of a foreign consulate a thousand feet away".
Shay MCNeal wrote about this in her book "The plots to rescue the Czar."  Its all  a piece of fiction I think but It´s interesting to use one´s imagination of possible escape theories. Perhaps there were a lot of mines and tunnels in and arouned Jekaterinburg so perhaps this idea wasen´t so farfetched for the author of Rescuing the Czar.


Yes, the book Rescuing the Czar, a book of fiction that apparently may have been drawn from  acutal people and places who could have been invovled in a plot to rescue the Tsar,  did have the escape occuring through a tunnel.

Rescuing the Czar:  

There is a thread about this book.

(1) http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Books;action=display;num=1089365164;start=0#0

(2) You can actually read the book online at:
http://www.fullbooks.com/Rescuing-the-Czar.html

And,  yes,  it was possible to move under Ekaterinburg in old mining tunnels.  And, maybe, it was part of someone's plot to rescue Nicholas II.  And,  it could have been accomplished if the right people were involved, I think.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Czarevna Colleen on November 15, 2005, 06:57:52 PM
I'm a 26 year old Canadian gal, so that would make me an adult (chronologically, anyway).

I'm an extremely stubborn Taurean, with a lot of interests.

I am of mixed descent - Irish, Scottish, British, German, Swedish and Norweigan.

Yes
And torn with question number two. 8)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 15, 2005, 07:05:29 PM
Quote

If I had been in that house and wanted to escape,  I would have used a spoon and butter knife if need be to get my children to a safe place.   But then,  I'm talking about myself who was raised differently than the members of the Royal Family who   weren't  accustomed to doing things on their own so  I doubt they did any digging or even thought about doing it themselves.

Those who might have found shovels and picks might have been the British or the French or the Japense or the Americans or some small group of loyalists or Whites working on their own .....  

The possibility, the opportuniity and the means were there just as there already were the minning tunnels.  

Ekaterinburg had capable miners with maps of the old mines.  And since so many were in need of jobs to feed their families,  I doubt anyone ploting this kind of escape,  would have had any difficulty finding them.

I believe there is a museum in Ekaterinburg which displays not only the maps but all the different precious metals and gems which help create Ekaterinburg into a thriving prosperous town in the first place.

There was probably some active mines in the area.

We're more familar with the abandon ones like the Four Brothers Mine.

AGRBear





Is there in fact any evidence that Rescuing the Czar contains non-fictional elements?

The image of mining tunnels honeycombing Ekaterinburg is interesting. Is the town itself built over mines? The Four Brothers was some distance from the Ipatiev House, wasn't it? They did need a truck to get there.

I assume that this is speculation. As long as it is clearly labelled as such, okay, but it is too often facile to leap from the idea that because there were mines near Ekaterinburg, "they" must have been tunneling into the Ipatiev House. There were trains running from Perm to Ekaterinburg, so the Imperial Family must have been on one of them. There were airplanes in Siberia, so perhaps there was a plot to land one near the house and rescue the family. There were foreign agents in town, and ipso facto, they were plotting to rescue the family.

For a theory to be credible, there has to be some evidence in support of it. Is there any evidence that an escape was mounted by tunnel other that the novel Rescuing the Czar?

And thanks for the link to the book, Bear. I enjoyed re-reading it. I recommend that anyone who wishes to discuss it as a historical source do the same, and come to your own conclusions.

Regards,

Simon
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 15, 2005, 07:08:17 PM
Where is the picture of OTMAA and Alexandra at Rasputin's burial taken from, a movie, television show or DVD?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on November 15, 2005, 09:17:08 PM
It's from Rasputin: Dark Servant of Destiny, starring Alan Rickman, ian McKellan, and Greta Scacchi.
Here it is on amazon:
Rasputin VHS (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/630415674X/qid=1132110879/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl27/102-1376217-5746506?v=glance&s=video&n=507846)

It was an HBO movie, and eventually released only on VHS in the States, but I've heard it's available on DVD overseas.

I like it quite a lot -- there's the usual historical quibbles, but the acting and portrayal of the relationships between Nicholas, Alexandra, Alexei & Rasputin are excellent in my opinion.
:)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on November 16, 2005, 06:50:44 AM
And some would sneer at my theory of alien abduction of the IF... ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 16, 2005, 09:33:36 AM
Thanks for answering!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 16, 2005, 12:40:20 PM
From what I understand, there is a honeycomb of mines under Ekaterinburg.  Most of the tunnels were dug in a time when Ekaterinburg was a booming mining town and it was said the streets were littered with precious gems falling out of the full pockets of the miners.  

Not sure the aliens knew about Ekaterinburg back then,  but, if they did they would have returned home with some mighty pretty colored stones.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 16, 2005, 12:51:44 PM
I have an old traveling book of 1979 which lists Ekatkerinburg as Sverdlovsky and it tells us p. 356:

"...is called the capital of the Urals... founded in 1821 as a Russian military sronghold and trading centre and called Yekaterinburg....It is an important railway junction with 7 lines radiating from it.....One of Sverdlovsk's many museums is quite unigue; this is the Museum of Minerology where some 20,000 minerals, including precious stones, are on display, all mined in the Urals."

Talks about "mansions" being built by goldmine owners.

I think this part is interesting:
"Across Liebnecht St. is a small stone house which was where the deposed Nicolas II was shot in 1918."

THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO THE SOVIET UNION
by
Victor and Ennifer Louis
Ed. 1979
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 16, 2005, 12:59:22 PM
My old Baedeker book p. 260 [ed, 1971 of his 1912 version] tells us a slight different history of Yekaterinburg:

"...a district-town in the government of Perm, founded in 1721... It is the most important place in te Urals.  Pop. 75,000."

"iron foundary"

"The stones offered by the street-vendors, especially the emeralds, are mostly spurious."

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 16, 2005, 01:09:04 PM
History on Ekaterinburg in English  found on line today:

Photo of Opera House:
http://www.russian-women-info.com/russia-romance-tours/images/yb_operahouse.jpg

Tourist data/ History:
http://flats.h1.ru/ekaterinburg_history.htm

What to see in Ekaterinburg Part One:
http://flats.h1.ru/what_to_see_in_ekaterinburg.htm

What to see in Ekaterinburg Part Two:
http://flats.h1.ru/what_to_see_in_ekaterinburg2.htm

What to see in Ekaterinburg Part Three:
http://flats.h1.ru/what_to_see_in_ekaterinburg3.htm

University of Ekaterinburg Minning School:
http://www.usmga.ru/

See Ice Caves:
http://www.russian-women-info.com/russia-romance-tours/images/yb_icecave.jpg
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 16, 2005, 02:16:19 PM
Quote
From what I understand, there is a honeycomb of mines under Ekaterinburg.  Most of the tunnels were dug in a time when Ekaterinburg was a booming mining town and it was said the streets were littered with precious gems falling out of the full pockets of the miners.  

Not sure the aliens knew about Ekaterinburg back then,  but, if they did they would have returned home with some mighty pretty colored stones.

AGRBear



Of course, Etonexile might have a point --- if the aliens did manage to kidnap the Imperial Family, then they did get a lot of jewelry into the bargain, given the situation with the corsets.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on November 16, 2005, 07:14:29 PM
Quote
And some would sneer at my theory of alien abduction of the IF... ::)

None DARE sneer at you, darling EE - or at the MIGHTY Tedders!
Your theory is as valid as any other so far suggested here... and more original I think!  ;)

PS: Agrbear? "Precious gems falling from the pockets of miners?" Have you been watching Disney's SNOW WHITE again? You do understand that 'jewels appearing from a mine all perfectly polished and faceted' like that, are - ONLY in cartoons don't you... dear?

LOL
rs
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 17, 2005, 11:35:57 AM
Quote
None DARE sneer at you, darling EE - or at the MIGHTY Tedders!
Your theory is as valid as any other so far suggested here... and more original I think!  ;)

PS: Agrbear? "Precious gems falling from the pockets of miners?" Have you been watching Disney's SNOW WHITE again? You do understand that 'jewels appearing from a mine all perfectly polished and faceted' like that, are - ONLY in cartoons don't you... dear?

LOL
rs


The rumors about boom towns were often similar to fairy tales.  I remember the run on California gold fields where it was rumored the streets were "paved with gold".  I suppose with the finding of precious gems the towns invovled the rumors had their  "streets littered with gems".

To deny such rumors would be denying history of some of it's colorfull folkore.

I'm not sure where I mentioned "polished" stones falling out of pockets but then that is how rumors do get started. ;)


AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on November 17, 2005, 05:51:51 PM
Hello Bear,

I have been reminded many times in my long years of life, that rumors sometimes become life's realities, when we least expect it. As long as we may share our real opinions honestly, then we must follow them through till fact remains fact, or it may be taken to the long collection of made up stories.

Your courage to see things through are good to see, though many may not agree. That is what is so great about freedom and open discussions and or theories.

It's easy enough to poke fun at others, but its important to understand, the address of the subject matter, is taken seriously, for many have not even entered into posting their thoughts. In any event, Princely or commonor, these were 'human beings' and to find closure, and truth about such a terrible crime as this, it's only fitting to discuss it in a mature manner, those who are able to, that is.

Daily we see crimes printed, or placed across our tv monitors, our computers, and most human beings are affronted at these daily crimes. Yet as a peoples, and as nations, we stop to pay our respects, and our complete understandings so to make very sure, as a caring society, we are totally against criminals, and any and every outrageous unspeakable crimes as such.

Each human being is important, and as many families who have lost loved ones to murder has,etc., Their constant hope against hope, is that someone has survived. It is just the same with these survivor discussions. At least a semblance of respect might remain, and not hilarity, or thoughtless words thrown out just to be read, not really absorbed.

We may not always agree, but there is a way of offering our thoughts with care. Perhaps no one survived, then again, perhaps they did. All we can do is offer our many respective theories to and in our discussions.

Thanks again.

Tatiana
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on November 17, 2005, 06:51:43 PM
Ok we need to define a possible survivor theory, an improbabale theory and a tall tale.
Stories of miners scattering diamonds/gold dust in their wake is an imaginative metaphore ...It might have seemed that gold/emeralds/diamonds were so thick that they paved the streets of these towns ... but they did NOT -its just a turn of phrase.

Possible survivor theories involve notions such as rescues or escapes. (I don't believe in survivor theories)

Improbable theories involve time machines/aliens/or magic spells.

Anyone want to try a conbination?  ;)

How about  this...

A collection of English witches tunneled thru' to the Hollow Earth (led by EE and Teddy) to meet the IF in the Tunguskah (sp) Forest where an alien space ship awaited them (having arrrived in 1909)! ;D


lol
(remember, LOL means laughing out loud)

a very skeptical elf
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on November 18, 2005, 11:07:05 AM


Improbable theories involve time machines/aliens/or magic spells.

Anyone want to try a conbination?  ;)

How about  this...

A collection of English witches tunneled thru' to the Hollow Earth (led by EE and Teddy) to meet the IF in the Tunguskah (sp) Forest where an alien space ship awaited them (having arrrived in 1909)! ;D


lol
(remember, LOL means laughing out loud)

a very skeptical elf
[/quote]

As you are one very sly elf...near the truth...Tedders and I shall take your "LOL" as a device to throw the clever off the trail of the true,alien abduction...you can't PROVE we are wrong...and in these conservative times...that's all one needs for a theory....

Might the witch from Beccles please return the lace hanky she "borrowed" from Tedders?...MONDAY...paper towel...WEDNESDAY...THURSDAY...etc....just not the same... ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 18, 2005, 11:22:09 AM
Rescuing the Czar by Smyth:

>> My prisoner and I followed
the ladies out into the night, _forgetting_ a jewel or two in our
leisurely departure.... Out in the open WE DESCENDED into the old
abandoned tunnel that formerly led from Ipatievs to the medical office
of a foreign consulate a thousand feet away...."

The fictional book tells us the rescuer and the IF used a tunnel.

It says it was an tunnel that had been abandoned which lead from under the Ipatiev House to the "medical office of a foreign consulate a thousand feet away".

Was there an abandon tunnel or was one newly dug for the rescue from an abandone tunnel?  I don't know.

I know that basements were commonly built in small and larger homes because there was no refrigeration and food was stored in basements dug in the ground.   My different families all had basements of some kind.  

Since the Ipatiev House was built for a man of some wealth,  I assume, that storage of food stuffs for family and staff would have been in a underground basement.  This is not counting what historians call the "basement rooms" which were only partly underground and probably used by the staff.

If the owner of the house believed he needed an escape route,  then a tunnel would have been built since this was a fairly new home and built after several uprisings had occured in Russia.

I have seen homes like the Ipatiev House which did have these "secet" escape routes,  however,  I do not know if the Ipatiev House had one.

Nor do I know if there was proof that one or all of the eleven escaped through a tunnel the night of 16 / 17 July 1918.  If there was any,  it seems to have been eliminated/destroyed or lost in some archive.

So,  we just speculate and toss out theories of possibilities of escape because some of us are not trusting Yurovsky words about what happen and because there are still two skeletal remains of one of Nicholas II's daughters and son  Alexei.  Yes, I know there were nine bodies found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.  However, we do not know if this is where the bodies were first buried and the number of missing bones make it appear that their corpses may have been buried elsewhere and then reburied in Pig's Meadow.  And, there does seem proof the grave was distrubed a number of times from 1918 to the final removal to a lab....  See the thread on Questions on Graves in Pig's Meadow.

So, back to a tunnel.  Was there a tunnel which lead to building of a "medical office of a foreign consulate a thousand feet away" like the one mentioned in the fictional book?  I don't know.  

Was there some kind of  "medical office of a foreign consulate near the Ipatiev House?  I don't know.  Anyone have a map of Ekaterinburg drawn before July 1918?

What we do know, now, is there were a honeycomb of tunnels under Ekaterinburg, a mining town, in the Urals before July of 1918.

If there was a plot to recuse Nicholas II and the others,  it seems possible that someone might have thought of using a tunnel for an escape.  The author of Rescuing the Czar thought of using a tunnel in his book.  I would have,  if I had been in Ekateinburg.  So,  why wouldn't the people wanting to rescue Nicholas II come up with the same plot which would have used a tunnel?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on November 18, 2005, 12:18:39 PM
Some folk just seem determined to clutch at the most bizarre,improbable schemes for the rescue of the IF...you know...those folks who's bones were found decades later...and were a perfect match for known members of the IF today...you know?...erm...Don't you?

I love the the wacky madness of some here-abouts...they just won't let go...they will forever grasp at any ridiculas,romantic theory to keep their imaginations rolling....bless'em all.... :-*
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 18, 2005, 12:48:30 PM
As I pointed out in an earlier post, there is a wonderful novel called A Pride of Royals. The author sets up a German/Anglo joint rescue attempt headed by an American naval officer who actually travels to Berlin in 1916 and meets the Kaiser! In person! And the Kaiser says that he should go recue poor Nicky and Alicky because the Kaiser can see the revolution coming. Of course, when he gets to St. Petersburg the naval officer finds it swarming with agents, all sort of agents, and Bolsheviks too!

Anyway, he actually does rescue the Imperial Family and they flee across the Gulf of Finland in an iceboat. I won't tell you how he actually gets the family out, but it doesn't involve tunnels, even though we know there were tunnels in St. Petersburg in 1917. Some of them probably went all the way under the Alexander Palace, because it was a palace and probably had, you know, tunnels. But they don't use tunnels.

They use iceboats. Now, we know that there were iceboats stored on the Gulf of Finland shores, and we know that the Imperial Family went sailing on the Standart, so they were probably good sailors and all, used to handling things like ropes and stuff that you have on iceboats. So what I am speculating here is that the author of this book is actually disguising something that really happened because (1) there were iceboats on the Gulf of Finland in 1917 (2) the Gulf of Finland actually freezes in the winter so you can use the iceboats and (3) even though it is cleverly disguised as a work of fiction, the author clearly has done his research in A Pride of Royals, and the characters talk and think the way we can assume the Romanovs did. And we know that there were German plots to rescue the Romanovs, so that's alright.

Of course, there is another novel that says that they did escape from the Ipatiev House in a tunnel (not Rescuing the Czar, btw.)  This one is very convincing too --- I'll have to look it up on my bookshelves when I get home from work tonight to remember the title, but I certainly remember thinking, "Yes, Simon, this could have happened this way." Alexei is killed in a grenade explosion, and can't escape with the rest of the family when they fly out of the Urals in a big bi-plane that the American agent that rescues them has secured for the purpose.

The problem is that these two novels contradict each other. But they are each so convincing. And the second one involves tunnels, so maybe . . .

. . .  wait, I am forgetting The Kitchen Boy. That was really convincing too, but it said that only Maria escaped from the basement because she was rescued by the very guard delegated to shoot her!!!!

Look, if there is anything that supports any of these stories --- because that is what they are, stories --- could we please have it cited? Otherwise, what we have here is "I want the Romanovs to have lived, so I will give them  . . . a tunnel! Or an ICEBOAT!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: jolie on November 18, 2005, 02:39:11 PM
I can't BELIEVE none of you has seen the OBVIOUS!!

After reading about the Japanese interest in the IF and suvivors and knowing how the Japanese were experts at tunnels in WWII.......................  :o

It's elementary  ;)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on November 18, 2005, 06:11:40 PM
OK....
How many tunnels are to be located in a SWAMP?? Petersburg is in a lovely but rather nasty swampy area -not  optimal for a honeycomb of tunnels!!

;D

PS:
EE & Tedders
  The linen mentioned is currently being hand washed by our very own High Priestess in holy rose water...sorry about the delay! ;)

rs

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 18, 2005, 06:18:16 PM
Ummmmmmmmm
May I point out one OBVIOUS little "problem" about tunnel rescue? See, Alexandra  wrote a DIARY ENTRY the last night. So, we know she was there until at least bed time, as was the rest of the family (why else bother to write a diary entry like EVERY other day?). THEN, see, we have OTHER eye witnesses, who saw THE WHOLE BLOODY FAMILY alive and together that night. SO, WHEN and HOW was some ludicrous "tunnel" rescue story possible?

OH, one more thing. There was NO TUNNEL UNDER THE IPATIEV HOUSE! There still IS no tunnel under the house. It was NOT FOUND when they tore the house down, nor when they built the new church on top of the old site....

So sorry to intrude some REALITY into this otherwise entertaining fairy tale.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on November 18, 2005, 06:38:28 PM
Quote
May I point out one OBVIOUS little "problem" about tunnel rescue? See, Alexandra  wrote a DIARY ENTRY the last night. So, we know she was there until at least bed time, as was the rest of the family (why else bother to write a diary entry like EVERY other day?). THEN, see, we have OTHER eye witnesses, who saw THE WHOLE BLOODY FAMILY alive and together that night. SO, WHEN and HOW was some ludicrous "tunnel" rescue story possible?

OH, one more thing. There was NO TUNNEL UNDER THE IPATIEV HOUSE! There still IS no tunnel under the house. It was NOT FOUND when they tore the house down, nor when they built the new church on top of the old site....

So sorry to intrude some REALITY into this otherwise entertaining fairy tale.


Brilliant!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 18, 2005, 07:31:29 PM
Quote
Ummmmmmmmm
May I point out one OBVIOUS little "problem" about tunnel rescue? See, Alexandra  wrote a DIARY ENTRY the last night. So, we know she was there until at least bed time, as was the rest of the family (why else bother to write a diary entry like EVERY other day?). THEN, see, we have OTHER eye witnesses, who saw THE WHOLE BLOODY FAMILY alive and together that night. SO, WHEN and HOW was some ludicrous "tunnel" rescue story possible?

OH, one more thing. There was NO TUNNEL UNDER THE IPATIEV HOUSE! There still IS no tunnel under the house. It was NOT FOUND when they tore the house down, nor when they built the new church on top of the old site....

So sorry to intrude some REALITY into this otherwise entertaining fairy tale.



This is the first time I've heard anyone state it was proven that there wasn't  a tunnel under the Ipatiev House in 1918.

Who told you this/or/ where did you read this FA?

Source, please.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 18, 2005, 08:00:49 PM
I assume you will be posting your source that there was a tunnel under the house? Is the source Rescuing the Czar?

Call it a source of "omission". Had there been a tunnel under the house, wouldn't it have been mentioned when it was demolished?

As I recall, earlier on this thread the speculation was that someone "dug" through to them. You have now switched to the idea of a pre-existing tunnel?

Iceboats. They escaped in iceboats.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 18, 2005, 08:00:54 PM
I dont NEED to prove there was no tunnel under the Ipative house. The burden is on YOU to prove that there WAS a tunnel there, beyond doubt. Else, your theory is not better than space aliens or time travellers. Sorry, but that is how the world works. FYI none of the scholarly works about the site ever mentioned a tunnel, so absent any reference, YOU have the burden
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on November 19, 2005, 08:05:10 AM
I do not believe that anyone survived the executions (it was an execution not a murder - but that's not the point).  8)

    However, many people 'want to believe' or 'do believe' in the face of logic/forensics/no tunnels/etc. that there were survivors! Its FAITH that propells them, and this is not something that can be qualified rationally.
    Many people -during the Civil War and after the executions- may well have claimed that there were 'attempts' to rescue the IF - but these were too late/discovered by the Bolshevics/disorganised/poorly funded/etc. We many never know if these claims were sincere or simply 'monday morning sport'.
   So far the Tunnel theory, the Refugee theory, and the Iceboat theory, have one valid point against them - no forensic evidence! If a claimant suggested "thats how I/my father/mother/got out..." there is still no DNA connection between these claimants and the IF!  

    I think that "RTC" is a poor work of pulp fiction from the twenties .... With that in mind, are we now bound to argue about the reality of Sam Spade?

Silly as it is - I like the Aliens/Hollow Earth/Witch theory.

elf
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on November 19, 2005, 09:39:53 AM
Quote
OK....
How many tunnels are to be located in a SWAMP?? Petersburg is in a lovely but rather nasty swampy area -not  optimal for a honeycomb of tunnels!!

 ;D

PS:
EE & Tedders
   The linen mentioned is currently being hand washed by our very own High Priestess in holy rose water...sorry about the delay! ;)

rs



Tedders filled with joy...and stuffing.... ;D
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: catt.sydney on November 19, 2005, 03:46:56 PM
EE and Teddy!
How you do delight me! :-*
I am laughing altogether too hard!

catt
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on November 19, 2005, 04:00:10 PM
See now Teddy...we are the subject of laughter...But you will insist on wearing THOSE shoes... ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 20, 2005, 11:22:57 AM
Quote

If you can't enter the fenced and guarded grounds of the Ipatiev House from ground level than what would have been another way?  

Underground???  

The city was over minning tunnels. SOOOOOoooooo,  if someone, like the Germans or British or independent rescuers loyal to Nicholas II,  were setting up a resue, wouldn't they consider digging a tunnel since the city was sitting on top of minning tunnels?

I doubt there was any digging  done by the IF  or their servents so there wasn't anyone  flushing down dirt in a toliet in the Ipatiev House in July of 1918.  Then, again, we don't know everything that occured in the Ipatiev House.  


AGRBear


Theories are theories and facts are facts.

My theory is, if there was an escape, if only for a short period of times [hours, days, weeks or months] of the IF had occured,  one kind of escape could have been through a tunnel as suggested by Rescuing the Czar and another book, which Louis Charles mentioned.  Louis Charles, please let us know the name of this book when you remember.

I'm not sure why some posters continue to make it appear that I am forgetting the nine skeletal remains found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.  I have not.  Nor have I made any claims that they, the in nine remains found, were not the IF and the others, therefore, they were buried and so they must have been executed or died from wounds or exposure or ....

I am just not sure when they were exectued/ died, or where they were executed/died or if the grave in Pig's Meadow was the second [the first being Four Brother's Mine] buriel place.

Do I think the tunnel was a new one dug by  the Germans or the French or the Japanese or the Americans or the British?   It's possible.     If this were the case, then it was probably an extention from an old mining tunnel.  Also to be considered,  and should be asked, did the owner of the Ipatiev House have one built for his / his family to escape? If this was the case,   then it would have already been in existence.  

To demand that I prove there was a tunnel [old or new] is a burden I must carry, and,  that's fine with me, since I am looking for facts at this time.

So,  what have I discovered thus far?

FA claims there wasn't a tunnel or it would have been found during the time the house was demolished.   But when I asked for a source,  I'm not given a source.   Therefore, this statement is not based on fact but an assumption or a conclusion based on some kind of information not provided to us in his post and may be forthcoming.

So, let me ask FA,  what evidence, such as a source,  do you have which can prove there wasn't any kind of tunnel under or Ipatiev buildings or property?   Let me ask a few other questions.  Did you, in fact, ever visit the Ipatiev House?  If you did,  and you may well have,  were their guides or did you get to roam freely?  Did you see the basement room where the execution took place?   If you did,  were you allowed to take photographs?  If you were,  do you have any to share? If you haven't been there,  have you talked to anyone who did visit the Ipatiev House while it still stood?  

What about the mining tunnels?  Did you go to the museum and see all the various stones or maps?  Are there any to be found that would have shown tunnels in the area of the Ipatiev House?  If not, why not?  Was this area without tunnels because of a rock formation,  or was it swampy or lower than the water table and would have flooded???

Since I wasn't there at the time,  I have no idea what was and what wasn't discovered by the crew and the officials [I assume the communist] when the Ipatiev House was demolished.    Were you there FA?  How about anyone else who is posting,  were you?  Anyone talk to anyone who was?


Let me add, I have no idea what the communist demolished between July of 1918 to the time the house was demolished.  Do you?

In order for my theory to be proven more than a theory,  I find the need to ask for honest answers by all involved in this thread.

If, indeed, you saw an alien and witches with wands that created a tunnel,  please,  let us know so we can know your position.

I for one,  am looking for evdience which proves or disproves tunnels under or near the Ipatiev House or other buildings near the Ipatiev House.

Let, me repeat what I've said many times.  I don't care what direction the truth takes me, so, I haven't a reason nor a need for a tunnel to have existed.  At this point in time,  I am just working under a theory of a possibility.

However, it is true that bears do like caves in which to hiberate.  Man made tunnels are not considered safe and considered hazerous and are usualy frown upon as reliable living space during the winter months.  ;)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 20, 2005, 11:36:22 AM
Quote
...[in part]...
OK....
How many tunnels are to be located in a SWAMP?? Petersburg is in a lovely but rather nasty swampy area -not  optimal for a honeycomb of tunnels!!

 ;D

....


rskkiya,  

To prevent further confusion, please explain to Tedders and the others that Ekaterinburg isn't anywhere near the swampy lands of St. Peteresburg.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 20, 2005, 11:38:01 AM
I didn't visit Ipatiev House, but Bob did and yes was allowed full access. NO tunnels.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 20, 2005, 11:50:10 AM
Quote
I dont NEED to prove there was no tunnel under the Ipative house. The burden is on YOU to prove that there WAS a tunnel there, beyond doubt. Else, your theory is not better than space aliens or time travellers. Sorry, but that is how the world works. FYI none of the scholarly works about the site ever mentioned a tunnel, so absent any reference, YOU have the burden


I am sorry,  I do not know what FYI means.

I, also, do not know to what "scholarly works"  you are presenting as your source.

And,  like I 've said,  I don't mind carrying the burden of discovering facts which may or may not prove a theory of a tunnels exsistence under the Ipatiev House or on the property.

The fact that one or two or all the eleven possibly escaped through a tunnel is the next step which can follow only if the first step of this theory can prove a tunnel's existed in July of 1918.  I may have a wooly brain but even I can understand how one fact can only follow another when proving a theory.  And, only after the various steps are made can any kind of conclusions be made as to if a theory is or is not possible.

However,  I do need help since I have no connections to anyone in Ekaterinburg or the scholars and papers/ letters, books to which FA may be making reference  and I hope he will name these sources so the rest of us can read this information.

Like I've said,  I have never read anywhere which states anyone has proven a tunnel did not exist under or near the Ipatiev House.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 20, 2005, 01:18:43 PM
Quote

I am sorry,  I do not know what FYI means.


FYI = For Your Information

Quote
I, also, do not know to what "scholarly works"  you are presenting as your source.
I think I am correct in assuming that Rob is referring to every single source regarding the Ipatiev House that has appeared in English (Massie, Summers & Mangold, Kurth, Wilson and King, etc.) or translation from the Russian (Fall of the Romanovs).

Quote
And,  like I 've said,  I don't mind carrying the burden of discovering facts which may or may not prove a theory of a tunnels exsistence under the Ipatiev House or on the property.


Since you have created this speculation, who else should carry this self-imposed burden?

Quote
The fact that one or two or all the eleven possibly escaped through a tunnel is the next step which can follow only if the first step of this theory can prove a tunnel's existed in July of 1918.  I may have a wooly brain but even I can understand how one fact can only follow another when proving a theory.  And, only after the various steps are made can any kind of conclusions be made as to if a theory is or is not possible.


You have, and I do mean this as kindly as possible, no more evidence for this speculation, theory, fantasy than Etonexile has for the space aliens. The difference is that he is not seriously putting it on the table for consideration, a fact which seems to have escaped you. I don't understand why you were able to rule out the whole iceboat rescue attempt, either. It was in a novel --- you know, a work of fiction --- that was much better written than Rescuing the Czar. You have yet to present any evidence the enables us to regard this book as having plausible content, despite several requests.

Quote
However,  I do need help since I have no connections to anyone in Ekaterinburg or the scholars and papers/ letters, books to which FA refers and I hope will name so the rest of us can read this information.
.

I suggest that you sequester yourself with as many books as you can find from the list of authors I mentioned above, and gain some information.

Quote
Like I've said,  I have never read anywhere which states anyone has proven a tunnel did not exist under or near the Ipatiev House.


I have never read anywhere anything that proves France is in Asia, but that doesn't mean France is in Asia.

Seriously, what is going on here? This isn't a "quest for truth" or "thinking outside the box" or any of the other high-falutin' phrases you have used to describe your interest in this matter. It is a completely solipsistic view of the universe in which evidence that supports your "theories" is manufactured from novels, and scholarly evidence --- that would be Massie, Wilson and King, Kurth, eyewitnesses, etc. --- is ruthlessly discarded or subjected to the kind of scrutiny which would sink Rescuing the Czar faster than the Titanic. A perfect example: Rob provided you with what you asked for, someone who was at Ipatiev House and confirms that there was no tunnel! Aha! But was he there in 1918? No. But Yurovsky and Sokolov and a raft of others were, and yet there is no mention of the mysterious tunnel.

Honestly, try thinking outside the box for a change --- that the evidence we have is not tainted by an international conspiracy of Bolsheviks, but represents the actual muddled events of the night. Inefficient shooting. Looting. Bodies being carted from one dumping ground to another. And in the end, the Family died. Horribly. This kind of speculation is just morbid, and frankly, silly.
 

Quote
AGRBear



Simon
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 20, 2005, 01:25:40 PM
Quote

rskkiya,  

To prevent further confusion, please explain to Tedders and the others that Ekaterinburg isn't anywhere near the swampy lands of St. Peteresburg.

AGRBear



May I respectfully suggest that you go back and read the post of mine which Rskkiya is addressing with this post, wherein I said that there were tunnels under Saint Petersburg. I was being whimsical, which Rskkiya certainly caught. I think we are all perfectly aware that Ekaterinburg isn't near the swampy lands of Saint Petersburg, thanks.

Simon
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 20, 2005, 01:42:45 PM
Simon,

FA is ROB. not Lisa. Lisa only posts as Lisa. No one posts as FA other than me. Just clearing that up.

ROB (not lisa)  ;D
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 20, 2005, 01:54:26 PM
Rob,

Are you sure? Are there eyewitness accounts of your Robitude?

:-[  Sorry!

Simon
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 20, 2005, 02:39:37 PM
Yes, there ARE eyewitness accounts of my "Robitude", however, they may not be seen as reliable by some users as they could be considered to be fabricating their stories to suit their own evil purposes..... :o
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on November 20, 2005, 04:03:32 PM
Simon!
    I agree with all your points, and while I don't believe that anyone escaped I also must suggest that Agrb give the dreaded 'Tunnel theme' a rest and try wounded escapee's 'body doubles' or drunken incompetent guards neglecting 'bodies' before the 'burial'?

  ONCE AGAIN - FOR CLARITY - I DON'T THINK ANYONE SURVIVED!

   I must make that clear so that Agrbear won't wheel back on me eventually and say that I suggested this.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on November 20, 2005, 05:44:29 PM
NO ONE ESCAPED DEATH...NO ONE LIMPED OFF IN A FILTHY CART TO PLAY HIDE-AND SEEK WITH REALITY...and YES...the caps are intentional....GAWWWWWWD...the "Harlequin Romance" mentality is a dangerous gerbil..... ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 20, 2005, 08:37:57 PM
Quote
I didn't visit Ipatiev House, but Bob did and yes was allowed full access. NO tunnels.


The above post did not show before I wrote my post.  Had I seen it,  I would have written something entirely different.  I would have written:

I am glad that Bob did get full access to the Ipatiev House.  Could you ask him if he went down into the what may have been called the "root" cellar?  A cellar where root vegetables such as potatoes are stored.  Here also would have been stored the canned goods.   I doubt any original jars, baskets and other things used for storage in 1918 would have still existed when Bob visited.

Do you know the year Bob visited?

The "root" cellars at that time were  completely underground.  Once down into the room,  he would have seen rows of shelves and it would have been a room about 20 feet by fifteen feet, maybe a little larger or a great deal smaller.  The height would have been about twelve to fifteen feet high.  

Bob hasn't been the only person to have been in  the Ekaterinburg House.  

AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 20, 2005, 08:50:10 PM
Louis Charles, I cannot comment on "ice boats" since I have not read the book you mentioned.

Quote

...[in part]....

FYI = For Your Information

 I think I am correct in assuming that Rob is referring to every single source regarding the Ipatiev House that has appeared in English (Massie, Summers & Mangold, Kurth, Wilson and King, etc.) or translation from the Russian (Fall of the Romanovs).


....
Simon


I'd also like to point out that  FA did not mention any particular book as you have.  

What I will do is dig out the ones you've mention and others.  I will look under some key words like Rescuing the Czar,  McGarry, Romanovsky, Rumors of Escape or just Escapes, Tunnel and McNeal, since she wrote the most about Rescuing the Czar.  I'll let you know what I do find.  

The first will be Robert Massie's THE ROMANOVS, THE FINAL CHAPTER.

I'm headed off to see Harry Potter with my grandkids so will be back tomorrow with the results and talk about what Massie did say and when I can what the others books tell us or do not tell us about tunnels under the Ipatiev House or on the property.

AGRBear  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 20, 2005, 11:09:54 PM
While you're at it, you might construct an answer to the challenge to Rescuing the Czar as a scholarly work in the matter of the Imperial Family at Ekaterinburg.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 20, 2005, 11:24:56 PM
Quote
Simon,

FA is ROB. not Lisa. Lisa only posts as Lisa. No one posts as FA other than me. Just clearing that up.

ROB (not lisa)  ;D


Rob - I was looking for the post of Simon's that reveals the context of this remark and I cannot find it.

To everyone else - Rob and I have been friends nearly as long as Bob Atchison and I have been friends, which is to say, for a long time.

I can prove his Rob-ness, but it is a subjective proof.

However, he's the FA and I'm a Moderator. I think the confusion comes from the differences between the two jobs.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 20, 2005, 11:34:03 PM
Lisa,

I mistook the Forum Administrator posting responses to Bear as you. Rob kindly revealed his Robitude and showed me the errors of my ways. Despite a critical lack of eyewitnesses to his Rob-ness, I have accepted it, and gone back and changed all of the Lisas in my post to Robs.

Simon
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 20, 2005, 11:37:15 PM
Quote

The above post did not show before I wrote my post.  Had I seen it,  I would have written something entirely different.  I would have written:

I am glad that Bob did get full access to the Ipatiev House.  Could you ask him if he went down into the what may have been called the "root" cellar?  A cellar where root vegetables such as potatoes are stored.  Here also would have been stored the canned goods.   I doubt any original jars, baskets and other things used for storage in 1918 would have still existed when Bob visited.

Do you know the year Bob visited?

The "root" cellar would have been completely underground.  Once down into the room,  he would have seen rows of shelves and it would have been a room about 20 feet by fifteen feet, maybe a little larger.  The height would have been about twelve to fifteen feet high.  At the opposite end of the room he would have seen doors which would have lead into  a smaller room, the ice cave, it would have been called.

Bob hasn't been the only person to have been in  the Ekaterinburg House.  

AGRBear




This is true. Sokolov also went into it, and managed to inspect the place without finding a tunnel. You describe the root cellar as something to which the supposed tunnel  might have been connected. Was there in fact a root cellar, or are you speculating that there must have been one?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 21, 2005, 09:09:30 AM
Bear,
Please go to Sokolov and you will find a detailed plan of the Ipatiev House.  There is no "root cellar".  There is a series of basement level rooms with small windows high in the wall near the cieling.  One of these was the murder room.  

Sokolov was actually the THIRD person to go over the house with a fine tooth comb. Nametkin and Sergeyev did it before Sokolov. We have THREE first hand reports of detailed surveys of the house from 1918 which found no evidence of tunnels.  The year Bob or anyone else may have visited is frankly moot as the people who investigated the house rather thoroughly AT THE TIME found nothing.  SO unless YOU have concrete EVIDENCE to the contrary to support this "theory" it is frankly in the same file folder as space aliens.

Bear, THIS is the reason why so many people get testy with you. You some how think that spinning wild ideas WITHOUT doing the first hand research is "thinking outside the box". It ISN'T. It is simply random speculation. Critical THINKING involves genuine RESEARCH for the fact to support it. PLEASE do your research.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 21, 2005, 09:19:59 AM
Quote
Bear,
Please go to Sokolov and you will find a detailed plan of the Ipatiev House.  There is no "root cellar".  There is a series of basement level rooms with small windows high in the wall near the cieling.  One of these was the murder room.  

Sokolov was actually the THIRD person to go over the house with a fine tooth comb. Nametkin and Sergeyev did it before Sokolov. We have THREE first hand reports of detailed surveys of the house from 1918 which found no evidence of tunnels.  The year Bob or anyone else may have visited is frankly moot as the people who investigated the house rather thoroughly AT THE TIME found nothing.  SO unless YOU have concrete EVIDENCE to the contrary to support this "theory" it is frankly in the same file folder as space aliens.

Bear, THIS is the reason why so many people get testy with you. You some how think that spinning wild ideas WITHOUT doing the first hand research is "thinking outside the box". It ISN'T. It is simply random speculation. Critical THINKING involves genuine RESEARCH for the fact to support it. PLEASE do your research.




The cellar did exist.  No speculation. That is why I asked if Bob had seen it.  If he had not, then he did not see everything.  Nor is this a moot point.

This may not have been the fault of Bob's inability to search every corner.  Bob may not have known it was there and where to look.  Or,  the entry way could have been covered with something or it had been demolished.

Like I've said,  I don't know what the CHEKA, Reds, Whites and communist demolished from 1918 to the time the Ipatiev buildings were completely demolished.  So,  this is why I'm asking questions.   And, that is why I'm wondering when Bob visited the Ipatiev House and what he did see and if he took any photographs. 

I do not have Sokolov's book which seems to always elude me on EBay or the used book stores.  So,  I have no idea everything  he included and did not include in his book.  I do know that he or someone. maybe Orlov or another person who thought he was doing what was best,  did manage to eliminate certain information which did not suit his conclusions after Sokolov's death and before final publication. And, I have read what others have quoted in the books I do have.

I do not know what Nametkin and Sergeyev wrote accept the bites and pieces in books. 

I, also, beg to differ.  Sokolov was not the third person to have gone over the house with a fine tooth comb.  Perhaps,  you meant,  he was one of the main and last Whites investigators who did before the Whites had to evacuate Ekaterinburg before the Reds entered, again, and this time they did not leave.   Perhaps,  you can tell me, if  he stated in his book the date he arrived in Ekaterinburg after he was appointed by the Whites? If he did, could you tell us, please?

You may get testy and you may delete my posts,  but,  my information is not fabricated and I assure you  I'm not working from wild ideas pulled from my imagination nor have I been guided by aliens.

As to Rescuing the Czar,  I've given the web site of this fictional/novel,  and we can talk about it over under it's thread,  if you like.

Meanwhile,  I've just pulled Massie's book of the shelf.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 21, 2005, 10:02:29 AM
Quote



The cellar did exist.  No speculation.
snip

I, also, beg to differ.  Sokolov was not the third person to have gone over the house with a fine tooth comb.  Perhaps,  you meant,  he was one of the main investigators.   Perhaps,  you can tell me, when does he state in his book the date he arrived in Ekaterinburg after he was appointed by the Whites?

AGRBear



"The Cellar", please refer to the maps of the house and identify exactly WHICH basement/cellar room you mean specifically. There is no one specific below ground level room on the maps identified as "The Cellar".

As for the other information, you have asked for this repeatedly before, so please go back and look it up yourself. I'm rather tired of you asking for the same information over and over again from me rather than you doing your own research. Its elsewhere on these threads.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 21, 2005, 10:23:29 AM
Quote

"The Cellar", please refer to the maps of the house and identify exactly WHICH basement/cellar room you mean specifically. There is no one specific below ground level room on the maps identified as "The Cellar".

As for the other information, you have asked for this repeatedly before, so please go back and look it up yourself. I'm rather tired of you asking for the same information over and over again from me rather than you doing your own research. Its elsewhere on these threads.


The cellar is not where the IF were said to have been executed.  

I do not have a complete map which shows the Ipatiev House,  the buildings associated with it nor the grounds which was owned by Ipatiev before it became a prision.  

I do not have maps of the honeycomb of mines under the city of Ekaterinburg.

My source, however, was in the Ipatiev House and on the grounds before anyone even thought of bringing into the investigation Sokolov.  And, my source  left marks on a wall which was later photographed in 1918 so there is  proof  that my source was there in July 1918.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 21, 2005, 10:50:25 AM
The dates I've found which refer to when each investigator became involved in the case of the execution or disapearance of  11 to 13 people, which included Nicholas II and his family on or after the 16th of July 1918:

Quote

..[in part..]

#The Czechs under Gen. Rudolph Gajda, who was part of Kolchak's armies,  entered Ekaterinburg first.

#Alexander Nametkin - Was investigator for the local [Ekaterinburg] justice dept.; appointed Examining Magistrate for Important Cases

#Alexander Kutuzov- Ekaterinburg assistant public prosecutor who named Sergeyev to his post.

#Judge Ivan Sergeyev -  "Judge of the Investigation of Special Importance" came into the case about Nov. 1918 ; released [fired] 23 Jan 1919

# Nikolai Sokolov - Resume Sergeyev's position on or about 23 Jan 1919

#Supreme Commander of the Whites - General Mikhail Diterikhs

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 21, 2005, 11:59:47 AM
The Bolsheviks did not leave Ekaterinburg until July 19/20 1918, but held control of the Ipatiev house until July 21. The Whites entered July 25 and immediately placed the Ipatiev house under full time guard. Nametkin and Sergeyev and Gilliard went into the house on August 2, 1918 to conduct their investigations and the house was locked and sealed. Sokolov followed up April 15-25 1919.

THUS, your "source" if he 'was" in the house in July 1918 had to have been a Bolshevik, and so, by your own admission his testimony must not be reliable.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 21, 2005, 12:38:55 PM
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/forumimages/ipatievmap.gif)

Above is the map of the ground level floor if Ipatiev House. Room 10 is the room of the murders. Which is your "cellar"?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 21, 2005, 01:07:08 PM
Quote
The Bolsheviks did not leave Ekaterinburg until July 19/20 1918, but held control of the Ipatiev house until July 21. The Whites entered July 25 and immediately placed the Ipatiev house under full time guard. Nametkin and Sergeyev and Gilliard went into the house on August 2, 1918 to conduct their investigations and the house was locked and sealed. Sokolov followed up April 15-25 1919.

THUS, your "source" if he 'was" in the house in July 1918 had to have been a Bolshevik, and so, by your own admission his testimony must not be reliable.


My source fought the Bolshseviks and lost four brothers in 1918-1919.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 21, 2005, 01:10:49 PM
Then your source can NOT have been "inside" the Ipatiev House in "July 1918" as you have claimed.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 21, 2005, 01:20:56 PM
Quote



The cellar did exist.  No speculation. That is why I asked if Bob had seen it.  If he had not, then he did not see everything.  Nor is this a moot point.

This may not have been the fault of Bob's inability to search every corner.  Bob may not have known it was there and where to look.  Or,  the entry way could have been covered with something or it had been demolished.

Like I've said,  I don't know what the CHEKA, Reds, Whites and communist demolished from 1918 to the time the Ipatiev buildings were completely demolished.  So,  this is why I'm asking questions.   And, that is why I'm wondering when Bob visited the Ipatiev House and what he did see and if he took any photographs.

I do not have Sokolov's book which seems to always elude me on EBay or the used book stores.  So,  I have no idea everything  he included and did not include in his book.  I do know that he or someone. maybe Orlov or another person who thought he was doing what was best,  did manage to eliminate certain information which did not suit his conclusions after Sokolov's death and before final publication. And, I have read what others have quoted in the books I do have.

I do not know what Nametkin and Sergeyev wrote accept the bites and pieces in books.

I, also, beg to differ.  Sokolov was not the third person to have gone over the house with a fine tooth comb.  Perhaps,  you meant,  he was one of the main and last Whites investigators who did before the Whites had to evacuate Ekaterinburg before the Reds entered, again, and this time they did not leave.   Perhaps,  you can tell me, if  he stated in his book the date he arrived in Ekaterinburg after he was appointed by the Whites? If he did, could you tell us, please?

You may get testy and you may delete my posts,  but,  my information is not fabricated and I assure you  I'm not working from wild ideas pulled from my imagination nor have I been guided by aliens.

As to Rescuing the Czar,  I've given the web site of this fictional/novel,  and we can talk about it over under it's thread,  if you like.

Meanwhile,  I've just pulled Massie's book of the shelf.

AGRBear




The cellar did not exist. There. I put mine in boldface too. Does it make it any the more true?

Look, if you have access to a source that confirms the existence of a "cellar", then let's hear about it. I assume that source is no longer alive? Who was it? Stop posting coy, conversation-stopping remarks like "he lost four brothers fighting the Bolsheviks". If you cannot present the source, then how can we know that he is reliable. Unless it is a she. See what I mean? What have you done, tracked down one of the nuns who delivered eggs? Have you identified a crypto-White on the guard detail?

Furthermore, you are using Rescuing the Czar on this thread as a source, so it is legitimate to ask you to identify the scholarly elements that make it reputable enough to do that on this thread.

And please don't pepper us with any more bulletins about openmindedness and the "search for truth"  from the Hundred Acre Wood unless you are prepared to answer the same kind of questions that you ask everyone else --- what is your source for any of this?

In increasing exasperation,

Simon



Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 21, 2005, 02:42:06 PM
Quote
Then your source can NOT have been "inside" the Ipatiev House in "July 1918" as you have claimed.


Do not tell me that my source was not "inside" the Ipatiev House in "July 1918"  when you don't have the knowledge of the following:

(1) You do not know the names of the Whites already in Ekaterinburg before the 16th of July 1918?  

(2) You can not give me a list of names of all the people who went into the Ipatiev House from the 21st of July to the 25th of July?  

(3)  You can not give me the name of my source even though you have already claimed incorrectly that he was a Bolshevik and  that it was impossible for him to have been in the Ipatiev House in July of 1918.  


AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 21, 2005, 03:45:35 PM
Quote


The cellar did not exist. There. I put mine in boldface too. Does it make it any the more true?


Do you have a source as I do?  No.  

Quote
Look, if you have access to a source that confirms the existence of a "cellar", then let's hear about it. I assume that source is no longer alive? Who was it? Stop posting coy, conversation-stopping remarks like "he lost four brothers fighting the Bolsheviks". If you cannot present the source, then how can we know that he is reliable. Unless it is a she. See what I mean? What have you done, tracked down one of the nuns who delivered eggs? Have you identified a crypto-White on the guard detail?


I could  name  my source but would you be convinced anymore than you are, now?

Quote
Furthermore, you are using Rescuing the Czar on this thread as a source, so it is legitimate to ask you to identify the scholarly elements that make it reputable enough to do that on this thread.


Yes,  I used Rescuing the Czar which talks about a tunnel and I believe I mentioned that it was a fictional book and made no mention of it being a "scholarly element".  I did mention that some of the information seem to mirror real people and real events occuring in 1918.  And, this often occurs when a author or authors have contacts with real people who took part in real events.

My source did not talk about a "tunnel", only a "root cellar".

Quote
And please don't pepper us with any more bulletins about openmindedness and the "search for truth"  from the Hundred Acre Wood unless you are prepared to answer the same kind of questions that you ask everyone else --- what is your source for any of this?


Since my family and friends lived in Russia and have knowledge of real people and real events who did lose family and friends while fighting the Bolsheviks,  I see no reason not to mention them.  And, will continue to do so.

Quote
In increasing exasperation,

Simon


If you think you are exasperated,  just think what I am feeling when I am telling the truth about my source who talked  about the Ipatiev's "root cellar"  which was something every well run household  had  because there wasn't any refrigeration in those days.

AGRBear  



Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 21, 2005, 03:54:19 PM
Quote
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/forumimages/ipatievmap.gif)

Above is the map of the ground level floor if Ipatiev House. Room 10 is the room of the murders. Which is your "cellar"?


It appears you are not aware of the life style which people lived in the 1918 when there was no refrigeration or even ice boxes.  A "cellar" was not a room in the house.  Sometimes there were cellars under a house and therefore a door/entry way might have been in a basement room or outside with steps leading down to the cellar under the house.  Sometimes,  it was not attached to the main house or any of the other buildings.

If you have photographs of the Ipatiev property, I probably could pick out the entry way if it was similar to what other people had.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 21, 2005, 03:57:41 PM
(1) You do not know the names of the Whites already in Ekaterinburg before the 16th of July 1918?

I doubt there WERE any or many Whites in Ekaterinburg before 16 July 1918 as Ekaterinburg was under BOLSHEVIK control until 21 July. Anyone "fighting the Bolsheviks" in Ekaterinburg before 21 July would have been shot.

Given that we have good records of who was involved and around, we could easily see if anyone mentions your "source". Of course, your little cat and mouse game of not naming him but DEMANDING sources from others goes to show that either you are just playing games as you have done in the past or your source is so unreliable you don't want to name it.  What proof IS there that this alleged source actually WAS in Ekaterinburg at all during this or any other time? Why is this source's "word on the subject" WITHOUT QUESTION? You reserve the right to question virtually ALL first hand sources cited to you yet decide that others do NOT have the same right to question YOUR "source"? much less actually KNOW the identity of your source?

More games from Bear. And she WONDERS WHY  no one takes her speculations seriously?
Lord......

PS the map above is COMPLETE. There IS NO CELLAR on ANY plan of the house and there is NO MENTION of a "cellar" by ANY of the people who examined the house in 1918. Gee I wonder WHY? Do you actually think them all so stupid that NO ONE might think to look in the cellar? PLEEEEEEZ...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 21, 2005, 04:41:05 PM
Quote
(1) You do not know the names of the Whites already in Ekaterinburg before the 16th of July 1918?

I doubt there WERE any or many Whites in Ekaterinburg before 16 July 1918 as Ekaterinburg was under BOLSHEVIK control until 21 July. Anyone "fighting the Bolsheviks" in Ekaterinburg before 21 July would have been shot.

Given that we have good records of who was involved and around, we could easily see if anyone mentions your "source". Of course, your little cat and mouse game of not naming him but DEMANDING sources from others goes to show that either you are just playing games as you have done in the past or your source is so unreliable you don't want to name it.  What proof IS there that this alleged source actually WAS in Ekaterinburg at all during this or any other time? Why is this source's "word on the subject" WITHOUT QUESTION? You reserve the right to question virtually ALL first hand sources cited to you yet decide that others do NOT have the same right to question YOUR "source"? much less actually KNOW the identity of your source?

More games from Bear. And she WONDERS WHY  no one takes her speculations seriously?
Lord......

PS the map above is COMPLETE. There IS NO CELLAR on ANY plan of the house and there is NO MENTION of a "cellar" by ANY of the people who examined the house in 1918. Gee I wonder WHY? Do you actually think them all so stupid that NO ONE might think to look in the cellar? PLEEEEEEZ...


Evidently in July of 1918 they did look in the cellar or else my source wouldn't have known about it.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 21, 2005, 06:11:11 PM
Bear.
I have had more than enough of your wholly disingenuous game playing. This subject is CLOSED. Since you seem to wish one set of rules for yourself and a different one for the rest of us, you are now forbidden from proceeding with this discussion. PERIOD. You have had ample opportunity to come clean, and frankly you refuse. SO YOU have left me no other choice. ANY further posting by you on the ludicrous and fully unsubstantiated allegations of tunnels will be removed without notice.

Go find another sandbox for your fairy tales. This one is closed since you can't play by the rules.

This is not censorship. I would treat ANYONE who makes unsubstantiated allegations from un named, un vetted, un substantiated and un proven "sources" exactly the same, and frankly have given you greater latitude than most. BLAME NO ONE BUT YOURSELF AND ANY WHINY POSTINGS OF "BEING MISTREATED OR CENSORED" WILL BE REMOVED.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on November 21, 2005, 06:29:55 PM
OK ...I have heard and read various  FOAF ( that is "friend of a friend" stories or 'urban legends') stories of wounded children escaping into the night.

Is anyone here at all familiar with these myths - where was this story first reported and by whom? Can it be tracked down at all?  I mention this from a purely academic curiousity.  I don't believe in any 'survivors' - but I am interested in the  the sort of legends that can occure -[ aka, what REALLY happened to Jimmy Hoffa/Elvis Presley etc.]  ;)

rs
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on November 21, 2005, 07:12:35 PM
Quote
I could name my source but would you be convinced anymore than you are, now?


Yes.  Provided that the information could be verified, yes.

Please, Bear. The refusal to name your source reduces this to a "take my word for it" situation, and that isn't the way scholarship works.

I am not trying to bait you into a continuation of the tunnel speculation, but pointing out that it is precisely this lack of evidence that undermines your arguments. It doesn't matter if you are persuaded by them --- obviously you are. But on these threads, when a topic is put up for discussion, there has to be more than our personal beliefs on the table, or the thread degenerates into pointless yes/no exchanges.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 22, 2005, 05:44:23 AM
Quote

Yes.  Provided that the information could be verified, yes.

Please, Bear. The refusal to name your source reduces this to a "take my word for it" situation, and that isn't the way scholarship works.

I am not trying to bait you into a continuation of the tunnel speculation, but pointing out that it is precisely this lack of evidence that undermines your arguments. It doesn't matter if you are persuaded by them --- obviously you are. But on these threads, when a topic is put up for discussion, there has to be more than our personal beliefs on the table, or the thread degenerates into pointless yes/no exchanges.



The "root cellar"  has nothing what's so ever with the "tunnel".  It was  just a common ordinary place where the servents place the can goods, the potatoes and other root vegetables,  fruiits,  nuts, floor,  pickles .... etc. where they remain cool from the heat of the summers.

Since the subject of a very common  "root cellar" did not cause me to think it was of any great importance I never asked   where it was located.  Just as I never asked where the stables were or if there had been a cow barn.

I do not even know how large the grounds were nor how many buildings were on the grounds near the "main house".

As to the refusal of my source's name,  let me make this comment.  I did not refuse.  In fact, if you go back and read the posts,  Louis_Charles was the only one who asked for my source.  To him I replied:

Quote
I could name my source but would you be convinced anymore than you are, now?



Would I have reveal his name? Why wouldn't I?  His name would have been found by FA or one of his friends on the high ranking officers list of the Whites who was in Ekaterinburg in July of 1918.
But, that was yesterday morning.  Now, I realize that a name isn't what  FA wants.


 So, under the shadow of a Teddy bear in a straight jacket,  I shall go  elsewhere which I asure you will not be in a sand box.  Bears do not waste their time in sand boxes.  

American-German-Russian Bear
[AGRBear]

From FA: I removed HelenA's photo.  It was an unacceptable personal attack against Bear. HelenA. you WILL refrain from these attacks.









 
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on November 22, 2005, 05:48:09 AM
At the risk of calling down Forum Admin's wrath I have to point out that British Consul Thomas Preston, who certainly was in Ekaterinberg at the time later wrote (in his "Before the Curtain"):

a) that the Czechs captured Ekaterinberg on 26th July (page 107 and page 113)

b) that "a week before they entered Ekaterinberg the Czechs sent their secret agents - members of the Russian Social Revolutionary party - into the town" (p106-7)

c) that on the night of 25th July he had with him, in the Consulate, among others "a British officer in plain clothes (and) a Russian officer" (p110).

There were, therefore, "White" and other anti-Bolshevik persons operating in the town prior to its capture by the Czechs and certainly in the month of July 1918.

Not, of course, that this any proof that any of them were Bear's mysterious informant.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 22, 2005, 08:58:49 AM
Phil,

No "wrath" from me at all, rather quite the opposite. You see, YOU cited an identified source, specifically, giving detailed specific information. UNLIKE BEAR, who offered nothing but an unidentified and DELIBERATELY un named, "source" who "told her" vague and unsubstantiated information which she asserts to be the truth, yet deliberately fails to back up her assertions at every requested turn.

My "wrath" is at Bear's insufferable hypocrisy. SHE reserves the "right" to herself question and suspect every first hand source cited to her, YET when the same is requested of her she plays coy little "games" and refuses.  Well, that childish behavior stops and stops now. Speculation is just that and nothing more. That is all Bear offered. Period.  If someone has REAL evidence then bring it forward. Bear did not.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on November 22, 2005, 11:21:05 AM
Why should we think that those who lived in the Ipatiev house had a "root cellar"?....They weren't peasants, putting away  food stuffs for the winter....They could have bought from the shops as they wished....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 22, 2005, 12:14:08 PM
Not to mention that Sokolov's map of the whole property shows very detailed descriptions of EVERYTHING, including the lavatory, laundry, and even each garden gate, the terrace, every single entry door, but...oh so mysterioso...NO "root cellar"
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on November 22, 2005, 02:20:55 PM
Has Etonexile ever written anything that wasn't faintly snide, unpleasant or disparaging (or just plain rude or stupid)?  

In the late 19th/early 20th century virtually every large British country house had an ice-house where goods were stored in the winter and ice kept in the summer.  No doubt they too could have just popped down to the shops  or sent their servants but for some strange reason decided to do otherwise.

Maybe it's time for me to quit again, this time for good.

Phil T
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 22, 2005, 02:46:17 PM
Well, this was not a country dacha on a working farm, it was a modern city home [for the times] of a prosperous merchant [?] with a small garden. Btw, whatever happened to the Ipatiev family ?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 22, 2005, 02:47:34 PM
Phil,
To be fair, while EE's tone was a bit snide, his point is well taken actually. The Ipatiev House was not an English Country Manor on a large landed estate. Rather, it was built in 1897 as a mansion smack in the deepest heart of the city, with electricity, indoor plumbing, etc etc as the residence of one of the wealthiest merchants of the city.  How many Mayfair, London mansions built in 1897 had such cellars?

The people at this link have done an amazing job of researching the house. Go here and take a look for yourself at the extensive period photos and maps of the exterior and interior of the building. Not a sign of anything remotely resembling a "root cellar" or "ice cellar" or whatever you want to call it.

http://www.romanov-memorial.com/Outside.htm
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on November 22, 2005, 07:08:40 PM
I find very interesting what Bear said to us, and I didn't think she made up the whole thing. I believed she knows a man who was really there in July 1918. Her infos are always very interesting and - a think that makes her an historian - audacious. She has not afraid to present her theories, even if some people laugh at her. But that doesn't matter for me...Sometimes, people who were right were ridiculized and criticized by others.

Keep you chin up, Bear, girl!
RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: elfwine on November 22, 2005, 07:27:40 PM
I have read a LOT of Bear's old posts...Hmmmm...
This is a game he/she loves to play...
"I know something/I have evidence/it's all sealed up with a nice little seal/ BUT I WON'T TELL YOU WHAT IT IS! JUST TRUST ME!!"

I'm not at all surprised that many posters no longer take bear seriously...I'm afraid that I don't anymore.

I don't have secret sources - no 'grandmother stories'...  
All I know about all this stuff can be found in publicly published materials.


Shoot - or put down the rifle- bear!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 22, 2005, 07:50:43 PM
I honestly dont think BEAR made anything up. What I question is the PERSON who told her, or allegedly told her...WHICH she typically refused to divulge so the accuracy could be assessed. Bear plays games, and sadly this is just another.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: CuriousOne on November 23, 2005, 09:47:15 AM
Quote
I have read a LOT of Bear's old posts...Hmmmm...
This is a game he/she loves to play...
"I know something/I have evidence/it's all sealed up with a nice little seal/ BUT I WON'T TELL YOU WHAT IT IS! JUST TRUST ME!!"

I'm not at all surprised that many posters no longer take bear seriously...I'm afraid that I don't anymore.

I don't have secret sources - no 'grandmother stories'...  
All I know about all this stuff can be found in publicly published materials.


Shoot - or put down the rifle- bear!



There is only one time that Bear did not give the name of her source out of some 3,000 plus posts and that is because she has never discovered who the person was.  It took be three hours to find the post, which I believe was one of her first:

Quote
The year was about 1947 and I was about five years old.  It was a Sunday and several men had come to visit my grandfater and his brother, who was, also,  visiting.  They were speaking German with a sprinkle of  Russian.  Now, and then,  my grandfather would tell me a sentence or two in English to keep me from getting bored.  Then,  he pointed at one of the men.  He told me that the man had a story to tell me and that I was supose to pay attention and remember the story.  The man and I didn't stay with my grandfather or his brother,  we took a walk along the old country road.  The man and I chatted about little things. We walked into an  field where a large old oak had fallen.  I remember he had a German accent like my grandfather and brother.  When we reached the fallen tree,  he picked me up and sat me on the old trunk. Then, the man started his story.  He talked about a Kaiser Nicky, his wife and children.  I listened.  The man told a good story and in such a way a child as young as I was would and did remember.  When he was finished,  we walked back to my grandfather's house.  I was told to go inside and have some of my grandmother's coffee cake.  I didn't need to be told twice.

No one ever asked me about the story the man had told me.  I never mentioned it to my parents.  Neither my grandfather nor his brother ever asked me questions or ever reminded me to remember the man's story.

Years passed.  And, I had forgotten about the man and his story.  That is, until I was about fourteen....  

While I was in a high school  drama class,  our teacher handed out our next project.  Everyone was set into pairs and then he handed us play books with a marked section that we were to act. Each pair had scenes from different plays.   For whatever reason,  I was given the part of Anastasia and my counter part was given the part of the Dowager Empress.  The play was from the original screen play of Anatasia.   I had not seen the movie with Ingrid Bergman, which had just come out earlier that same year.   That night I read the play.  I couldn't believe what I was reading.  It was about a woman who claimed she was Anastasia, the youngest daughter of Tsar Nicholas II.  I rushed out to the kitchen where my mother was working and asked her about this women whom everyone knows, now, as Anna Anderson.  My mother explained what she knew from what she had read through the years.  And,  then I voiced, "But this isn't what hapen."  My mother wondered what on earth I was saying.  I told her about the man and his story and that Kaiser Nicky must have been Tsar Nicholas II....

 My mother explained that German-Russians used the term Kaiser instead of Tsar or Emperor....

My ancestors were Germans who had migrated to Russia in the late 1700s or early 1800s then migrated to the USA in the late 1800s or early 1900s ....  The label given them was German-Russians.

My mother couldn't, however, explain why I was told what I was told and who it could have been that told me.  Her father had a great many friends.

So,  here I am, in my 60s, talking about this mystery man and his story on a computer with people I don't even know.  

Anyway,  that's how I became interested in Russia and the Last Tsar Nicholas II and his family.

AGRBear
  


The subsequent post will present to you what Bear related to another poster who asked about this mysterious person
C1


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: CuriousOne on November 23, 2005, 09:55:03 AM
Bear's responce:

Quote
Sorry it took me so long to get back to answer.

I do not know who "the man" was.  For a long time,  I thought I did, but it turns out that  I don't think that was his name.  I, now, just refer to  him as Mr. XXX .

Mr. XXX must have been in Ekaterinburg or knew someone who knew first hand as to what happen in Ekaterinburg on the night of 16/17 July.  I'ver never found evidence that has disproved what I was told about that night.  The part of the story all of you want to know is what he said about Alexis and Anatasia.  He told me in 1947:  "two bodies will be missing"  "the crown prince" [referring to Alexei/Alexis, son of Nicholas II]  and ______  [at this time I will with hold the name because I'm still waiting to see what I know can or cannot be proven, however, I will say it was one of his sisters].

If you have any doubts. let me state:  Back in the 1970s,  I wrote down the place where the bodies could be found and the names of the two Romanovs who would be missing from the grave.  This has been offically marked if it needs be present in a court of law.

I've just recieved the book Fate of The Romanovs and will dash through it to see if they have proof that Mr. XXX's story was true or just another "red herring"....

AGRBear


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 23, 2005, 10:00:40 AM
Only problem here C1 is that bear's 'story' changes over time. Note how this latest 'source' was DEFINATELY in Ekaterinburg in July 1918, while the first "source" "may have known someone...". PLUS she said she KNEW the identity of this latest source. OR if she didn't, why not just say so again instead of playing these games?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: CuriousOne on November 23, 2005, 10:45:29 AM
Quote
Only problem here C1 is that bear's 'story' changes over time. Note how this latest 'source' was DEFINATELY in Ekaterinburg in July 1918, while the first "source" "may have known someone...". PLUS she said she KNEW the identity of this latest source. OR if she didn't, why not just say so again instead of playing these games?


Since I am a friend of Bears,  as you well know,  I can respond with some knowledge. The answer is quite simple,  they are two different men.   Mr.  XXX continues to be a mysterious person and has eluded all of us who have searched for his identity and the officer she mentions in her post who spoke about the cellar is not Mr. XXX.   It is true what Phil tells you, there were Whites in Yekaterinburg in early July of 1918.  One of them was my great uncle Michaelovich, who was a Colonel in the Whites,  who had been in Omsk, and  was a very good friend of  Kappel. One of the people with Michaelovich was Bear's source.  Since I have no right nor have I  Bear's permission to reveal Bear's source's name,  you will have to wait for her return once she has gain her composure.  Then, again, she may not return since you told her to go play in someone else's sand box or whatever it was you demanded.


C1
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 23, 2005, 10:48:56 AM
Frankly, it is typical of Bear to run off in a snit rather than play by the same rules she imposes on the rest of us. I rather don't really care if she returns with her ludicrous and un supported speculation labelled as 'thinking outside the box' to try to give it some credence, despite the fact that it NEVER stands up to genuine critical thinking.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 23, 2005, 02:07:50 PM
I have a personal golden rule which I try to follow and it is:  When I become really angry  I do not respond for at least 24 hours, if it is possible to do so.  This avoids emotional outbursts and posting words I might regret later.

First let me thank FA for these words:

Quote
I honestly dont think BEAR made anything up.


Then let me say,  I understand FA's  demands for identifing sources.  And, he's also right,  I constantly ask others to provide sources.

Quote
What I question is the PERSON who told her, or allegedly told her...WHICH she typically refused to divulge so the accuracy could be assessed.


I have not refused to "divulge" the name of my source.  Nor was it "allegedly" told to me.  Out of 4025+ posts  I have attached my sources and if I did not then I did when reminded, so,   I hardly think I can be accused otherwise.


Quote
Bear plays games, and sadly this is just another.


Unfortunately, this is how you precieve my "out of the box" speculations, and, yes, sometimes I push pass the "dead end" sign.  To this I plead guilty.  However,  I am not doing it just for the sake of annoying FA or anyone else but to make sure all the possibilities are researched.

Although I'm still looking for the identity of Mr. XXX,  I can and will give you the name of my source who was in Ekaterinburg in early July of 1918.

Colonel Orlov.

I need to prune my roses and will be back, I hope.

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!

AGRBear


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on November 23, 2005, 07:04:26 PM
Even if Agr were to actually offer us documentable PROOF which could be independently verified - sadly this dance has gone on for so long that people who once might have supported her have now become very impatient with all the back tracking and hints.

Agr please prove me wrong!
Once and for all - tell us everything that you claim to know [ONE COMPLETE POST - not bits and pieces] MAYBE we can help fill in the missing bits!

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 24, 2005, 12:37:20 AM
Why cannot this thread just be put to rest ? Many of Bear's posts are only re-postings of what she has  posted before ! It is endless. Anyone who has the time to read ALL 4,000+ of her posts has way too much time on their hands IMO.
This issue was put by FA that she did not use the same criteria for her demands that she used herself. So be it.
This is no longer a discussion of survivor theories, it is a tedious re-hashing of nonsense, also -IMO.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: CuriousOne on November 24, 2005, 11:16:37 AM
Quote
At the risk of calling down Forum Admin's wrath I have to point out that British Consul Thomas Preston, who certainly was in Ekaterinberg at the time later wrote (in his "Before the Curtain"):

a) that the Czechs captured Ekaterinberg on 26th July (page 107 and page 113)

b) that "a week before they entered Ekaterinberg the Czechs sent their secret agents - members of the Russian Social Revolutionary party - into the town" (p106-7)

c) that on the night of 25th July he had with him, in the Consulate, among others "a British officer in plain clothes (and) a Russian officer" (p110).

There were, therefore, "White" and other anti-Bolshevik persons operating in the town prior to its capture by the Czechs and certainly in the month of July 1918.

Not, of course, that this any proof that any of them were Bear's mysterious informant.

Phil Tomaselli


Thank you  Phil Tomsaselli for the information.
C1
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on November 24, 2005, 05:05:30 PM

C1
Thanks for that reminder,  but for the moment I will just wait to see if agr will get back to us....
8)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Joy0318 on November 26, 2005, 06:36:07 PM
1. 99%  No (I like to think that maybe just maybe)
2. No.

Female
American South
Adult  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: marguimiceli55 on November 27, 2005, 08:10:21 PM
Hello, I'm new (but have been fasinated w/the R. since I was 9 yrs. old. I'm 50 now.Found this site by accident and feel I'm in Heaven now!!!!Always prided myself  I knew sooooooo much,such is my shame as i see your excellent panel. Myself, I always see  AA as Tatiana.
RA...I was born in Argentina too!!!M
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: margherita on November 27, 2005, 09:34:24 PM
FA ..sorry !! was told by my daughter not not use my real name thus  i  re registered this time as Margherita not  mm55. Truly sorry for the misunderstanding.(mine).
Wonderful site. More than I ever  hoped! Grazie. M
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 29, 2005, 09:10:29 AM
Welcome  margherita to our discussions.

I hope you will enjoy these threads as much as I and others have.

AGRBear

PS  

If you wish to remove a post, above your post are the words "remove", click on it and the post is gone.  Or, if you would like to fix your spelling or some other kind of error, click on "modify" and your post will open and you can do what you'd like to that particular post.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 29, 2005, 09:18:14 AM
Quote

...[in part]...

...MAYBE we can help fill in the missing bits!



Thank you for the offer rskkiya.  

Perhaps you or someone out there know more about Colonel Orlov and the other Whites, Czechs, British, Americans, and Japanese,  who were in Ekaterinburg before the night of the 16th of July 1918.

Or maybe, some of you might know more about the people and their names mentioned in Phil's quote:

Quote
At the risk of calling down Forum Admin's wrath I have to point out that British Consul Thomas Preston, who certainly was in Ekaterinberg at the time later wrote (in his "Before the Curtain"):

a) that the Czechs captured Ekaterinberg on 26th July (page 107 and page 113)

b) that "a week before they entered Ekaterinberg the Czechs sent their secret agents - members of the Russian Social Revolutionary party - into the town" (p106-7)

c) that on the night of 25th July he had with him, in the Consulate, among others "a British officer in plain clothes (and) a Russian officer" (p110).

There were, therefore, "White" and other anti-Bolshevik persons operating in the town prior to its capture by the Czechs and certainly in the month of July 1918.

Not, of course, that this any proof that any of them were Bear's mysterious informant.

Phil Tomaselli


I would especially like to know the name of the Russian officer who with a British officer entered the Ipatiev House on the 25th of July 1918.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Forum Admin on November 29, 2005, 09:24:55 AM
Bear,
Her name is not Grazie M. Grazie is Italian for "thanks" (pronounced Grat-zee-ye)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 29, 2005, 09:26:31 AM
Oooooooops,  sorry.  Shows you this Bear isn't Italian.  I'll go back and "modify".  Thanks FA.   ;D

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: margherita on November 29, 2005, 11:45:57 AM
Bear , Thank -u  ,now I know how to  modify. Yes, FA is correct  Italian  ...500 yrs. of Italian ( I  do mean  500) but grandparents left for Arg.  in 1948 ... anyways  I wanted to know if you are the one that has an envelope  sealed and registered by the USA post office.
I understand that in this manner you have priority to whatever you know or think you know that historians don't. ( I say this in a friendly manner ,with respect,too)What  are you searching for that needs to = what you've wriiten in your letter? Boy oh boy I hoped it was u  that talked about an envelope  if not SORRY!! :D
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 29, 2005, 04:29:53 PM
Quote

...[in part]...

I understand that in this manner you have priority to whatever you know or think you know that historians don't. ( I say this in a friendly manner ,with respect,too)What  are you searching for that needs to = what you've wriiten in your letter? Boy oh boy I hoped it was u  that talked about an envelope  if not SORRY!! :D


You are talking to the right person about the letter....

All my letter does is  prove what I knew when I wrote the letter.

Some of it has been proven to be accurate.  

I have no way of proving what has not yet been proven.

What am I hoping is to discover at this time?   The identities of some of the men who remained loyal to their Tsar and  were in and/or near Ekaterinburg in early July of 1918 as told to me by my mysterious Mr. XXX.

Since I was, if you recall, only five,  I presume, Mr. XXX thought I'd remember the people's names if he gave each person in his story a  nickname which would enforce what their names were.  Unfortunately,  I have never had a good memory when it comes to names.  I do not recall their names, however,  I do recall most of their nicknames.

I'll give you one:  Dodo Bird.  I remembered that name because I had told Mr. XXX  I knew what one looked like because  there was a picture of one in my  Alice and Wonderland book and I had thought it a rather funny nickname.

Curious One suggested the nicknames may not have been nicknames but their "code names".   I don't know.  Would these men have used just "code names" and not their real names?  If this is possible, then  it's possible he never told me their real names.

Unless you're digging through actual documents about the various agents and their activities and find this kind of information,  I doubt you can help me with the names.  Especially since   most of you don't even believe there were any agents / Whites or others in Ekaterinburg before the Whites entered on 25 July 1918.

Meanwhile,  as I wait for replies from my latest inquiries,  I am here, along with you and other posters,  gaining knowledge about the history of  Russia, especially the history which surrounds the time period my ancestors [German-Russians]  lived in Russia which was from the 1700s to the early 1900s.  

Thank you for asking, margherita.

I hope I haven't bored you or irritated FA, again.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on November 30, 2005, 04:55:30 AM
...surreal... ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 30, 2005, 08:15:59 AM
Sometimes, truth is stranger than fiction.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on November 30, 2005, 08:29:22 AM
Quote

...[in part]...
I'd also be interested in learning about any other survivor theories that exist.  I recently re-read the File on the Tsar, which I know is outdated and much disproven, but I'd be interested in some specific refutations of some of their "points" and also whether anything they discovered in their research has been proven to be correct.

I do NOT think this needs to be a forum to discuss whether AA is FS, AN or anyone else, or to prove one way or another who was who and whether anyone survived.  Just a discussion of the theories and evidence is interesting enough.


This is Finelly's creation, not mine, and it is about "theories".  

Do you, the reader,   have any "theories"?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: margherita on November 30, 2005, 08:35:01 PM
Thank you Bear for your explanation. Sounds interesting your puzzle.I too think that  2 or all survived.Even yesterday reading the biography of  of the Duke of Windsor he says he always thought his father had rescue plans.(about the czar).This  is my theory ,of course they (scientists) say it isn't AN ,and they mean it BECAUSE  really it was Tatiana.!!!!!! lastly,I too am sure  many countries were all working for  an escape/rescue  but where to find that I sincerely doubt there is a paper trail to follow .
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on December 01, 2005, 09:44:19 AM
The Russians believe the missing daughter was Maria because they matched photographs with skulls and other reasons, the Americans believe it was Anastasia because the skeletonal bones of those who's DNA match as daughters of Nicholas II and Alexandra were too old in their growth patterns to be the younger Anastasia....  And, you, think the missing daughter is Tatiania.   Why?

Quite some time ago,  I remember there was a group of gals who agreed with you and created a very nice website which gave their reasons.  When I find it,  I'll bring it here.  Found one of the discussions:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1103226282;start=0#0

Quote
Hey guys, Livadia.org has a worked on a research paper with some others on this subject.
 
Here is the link:
http://www.livadia.org/missing/



And, since you think the missing daughter was Tatiania,  how do you think she escaped?

I assume the second person, whom you think escaped, was Alexei.  Is it?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Rachael89 on December 01, 2005, 12:07:45 PM
That site is incredinly interseting Bear, it boggles my mind how they could find out so mcuh information, on the last page there's a guestbook and what soem people have witten is really fascinating, soem took about survivor stories I've never haerd before, all are quite wild but still v. interseting!

Rachael
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on December 01, 2005, 07:02:09 PM
Quote
I have no way of proving what has not yet been proven.

What am I hoping is to discover at this time?   The identities of some of the men who remained loyal to their Tsar and  were in and/or near Ekaterinburg in early July of 1918 as told to me by my mysterious Mr. XXX.

Since I was, if you recall, only five,  I presume, Mr. XXX thought I'd remember the people's names if he gave each person in his story a  nickname which would enforce what their names were.  Unfortunately,  I have never had a good memory when it comes to names.  I do not recall their names, however,  I do recall most of their nicknames.

I'll give you one:  Dodo Bird.  I remembered that name because I had told Mr. XXX  I knew what one looked like because  there was a picture of one in my  Alice and Wonderland book and I had thought it a rather funny nickname.

Curious One suggested the nicknames may not have been nicknames but their "code names".   I don't know.  Would these men have used just "code names" and not their real names?  If this is possible, then  it's possible he never told me their real names.

Unless you're digging through actual documents about the various agents and their activities and find this kind of information,  I doubt you can help me with the names.  Especially since   most of you don't even believe there were any agents / Whites or others in Ekaterinburg before the Whites entered on 25 July 1918.

  
AGRBear

" HUH?  ???
Dodo Bird? OMG! :-X
  If C1 thinks that these surreal nicknames were 'code names' that only proves that C1 is highly imaginative...Did Herr X tell you that they were code names?
 It is JUST POSSIBLE that this was all simply a funny story, told to charm a 5 year old... and NOT actually a Secret History!

rs
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on December 02, 2005, 12:37:30 AM
Quote
" HUH?  ???
Dodo Bird? OMG! :-X
   If C1 thinks that these surreal nicknames were 'code names' that only proves that C1 is highly imaginative...Did Herr X tell you that they were code names?
  It is JUST POSSIBLE that this was all simply a funny story, told to charm a 5 year old... and NOT actually a Secret History!

rs


A story about people being executed is never a "funny story".

AGRBear

 
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on December 02, 2005, 11:35:37 AM
"Funny" as in "Strange" or "Odd"...?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on December 02, 2005, 01:12:38 PM
This is a thread about "surivor theories".

Reading the post about one of our poster believing Tatiana's  was one of the survivors,  reminded me of the story about Tatiana being taken out of Ekaterinburg by airplane.

In several books, which I'll track down and give these sources later, is the mention of an airplane flying over the House of Special Purpose/ Ekaterinburg which caused the CHEKA to have a great concern that a rescue was brewing.

The only author I know who has dug into anything about airplanes and the possibility of this kind of escape was Michael Occleshaw in THE ROMANOV CONSPIRACIES.  There is an entire chapter title SIBERIAN FLIGHT which starts on p. 143 about where a plane may have come from and who might have been the pilot.

Occleshaw admits: >>This legitmate extra layer of secrecy means that tracing the details of events after the rescue is an almost impossible task, but some slight straws of evidence exists which may be worth following.<<

I'm not sure Occelshaw theories took him in the right direction.  See the following post from Phil:

Quote

..i{n part]...
1/  Occleshaw has "Tatiana" flown out of Ekaterinberg by the British.  He doesn't explain how any aircraft got there or how it managed to then fly her to Vladivostok.  I have spoken at some length on this subject with the former editor of "Cross & Cockade International" and we are agreed there was no aircraft at the time could have feasibly done this.

Phil Tomaselli


Please read all of Phil's post when you get a chance since he has listed more than one point on this subject.

Over under the thread of Claimants of Tatiana is the one known as  Larissa Feodorovna whom it is said was rescued by using an airplane:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=loonies;action=display;num=1117643820;start=0#0

Setting aside Occleshaw's theories and conclusion,  I need to ask  the following:  Would it have been possible for a rescue of one or two of Nicholas II's children by airplane?

The trip  doesn't need to take a survivor/survivors all the way to the eastern coast of Siberia.

Where would we go to discover the whereabout of the airplanes available to the Whites and their allies in  the north, Vladivostok or even Odessa?

Right off the top of my head,  I assume two planes would have been needed for two rescues.   Because,  if my assumptions are correct,  there wasn't enough room in the those old planes for two passsengers and a pilot.

Was there a place to land an airplane outside of Ekaterinburg?

I will be be the first to admit:  A lot of questions need to be asked and answered before we can even begin to consider this kind of rescue as possible.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on December 02, 2005, 07:08:50 PM
Quote

A story about people being executed is never a "funny story".

AGRBear

  



I'm sorry. A story with the words "Dodo Bird" in it has comic overtones, unless we are talking about avian mass extinction.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on December 02, 2005, 07:13:50 PM
Quote
This is a thread about "surivor theories".

Reading the post about one of our poster believing Tatiana's  was one of the survivors,  reminded me of the story about Tatiana being taken out of Ekaterinburg by airplane.

In several books, which I'll track down and give these sources later, is the mention of an airplane flying over the House of Special Purpose/ Ekaterinburg which caused the CHEKA to have a great concern that a rescue was brewing.

The only author I know who has dug into anything about airplanes and the possibility of this kind of escape was Michael Occleshaw in THE ROMANOV CONSPIRACIES.  There is an entire chapter title SIBERIAN FLIGHT which starts on p. 143 about where a plane may have come from and who might have been the pilot.

Occleshaw admits: >>This legitmate extra layer of secrecy means that tracing the details of events after the rescue is an almost impossible task, but some slight straws of evidence exists which may be worth following.<<

I'm not sure Occelshaw theories took him in the right direction.  See the following post from Phil:


Please read all of Phil's post when you get a chance since he has listed more than one point on this subject.

Over under the thread of Claimants of Tatiana is the one known as  Larissa Feodorovna whom it is said was rescued by using an airplane:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=loonies;action=display;num=1117643820;start=0#0

Setting aside Occleshaw's theories and conclusion,  I need to ask  the following:  Would it have been possible for a rescue of one or two of Nicholas II's children by airplane?

The trip  doesn't need to take a survivor/survivors all the way to the eastern coast of Siberia.

Where would we go to discover the whereabout of the airplanes available to the Whites and their allies in  the north, Vladivostok or even Odessa?

Right off the top of my head,  I assume two planes would have been needed for two rescues.   Because,  if my assumptions are correct,  there wasn't enough room in the those old planes for two passsengers and a pilot.

Was there a place to land an airplane outside of Ekaterinburg?

I will be be the first to admit:  A lot of questions need to be asked and answered before we can even begin to consider this kind of rescue as possible.
 
AGRBear





I assume that Phil means that there were no airplanes capable of a non-stop flight from Ekaterinburg to Vladivostock. But what about a series of jumps, i.e. flights of shorter length? The plane could put down every hundred miles or so and refuel, right? Assuming that there were, you know, landing strips of some kind and fuel available, right?

So it was Tatiana who escaped . . .that actually makes sense. It was Klara Peuthart who identified Anna Andersen as Tatiana, wasn't it? Maybe she had it right.

Okay. Tatiana got out by plane, according to Occleshaw. Anastasia was wandering around Perm, according to eyewitnesses in Summers and Mangold's The File on the Tsar. Olga was living on Lake Como, according to Prince Sigismund of Prussia.  Botkin, Demidova, Trupp and Kharitonov were probably killed in the Ipatiev House because they weren't imperial, and therefore no one was plotting to rescue them, poor beasts.  That leaves Maria, Nicholas, Alexandra and Alexei. Does anyone have any theories about them?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on December 03, 2005, 10:48:37 AM
My money is still on those fine,brutal chaps with their rifles and pistols...and bayonets...and rifle butts...."NO ONE ESCAPED THAT FILTHTY ORGY OF DEATH"...erm...sorry...odd inclusion of human emotion there....but "GROW UP PEOPLE"...."NO ONE ESCAPED"....These weren't soft,romantic "Boy Scouts" in that Ekaterineburg basement...they were selected and expected to KILL-KILL-KILL...do we see?...Naw, not for the "Harleguin Romance" crowd....

Tedders....I needs a lemon squash ...the hedge....pronto
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on December 03, 2005, 09:45:34 PM
Quote
My money is still on those fine,brutal chaps with their rifles and pistols...and bayonets...and rifle butts...."NO ONE ESCAPED THAT FILTHTY ORGY OF DEATH"...erm...sorry...odd inclusion of human emotion there....but "GROW UP PEOPLE"...."NO ONE ESCAPED"....These weren't soft,romantic "Boy Scouts" in that Ekaterineburg basement...they were selected and expected to KILL-KILL-KILL...do we see?...Naw, not for the "Harleguin Romance" crowd....

Tedders....I needs a lemon squash ...the hedge....pronto


Hi there! Been awhile. I see the same debates rage on. I've missed all of you. Glad to see Tedders is still kicking...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on December 03, 2005, 10:16:52 PM
Finelly asked initially, for ALL, participate in an objective non-hostile way. This has failed to transpire by some posters, who think less, but forge ahead with personal attacks, baiting, and attack with every other way of continuious disruptive behavior.  You know, this is just as stated, 'a debate', but some posters on this thread, have gone far beyond the care or respect of what that word means to those who look to see the real fruits of what a debate is. It's not see these repeated attacks, and to see people abusing others just for the reaction to see that they can, because 'they' think it's ok! It's not. Mature adults, don't act that way in any real forum.

We don't have to agree, or we may disagree, but the intent here is to make it an agreeable understanding to be civil, no matter what your personal feelings are. It's very rude to be demeaning to another etonexile, and that's a true statement, worldwide.  

RealAnastasia has every right to seek answers, because to date, nobody has no real set answers. She has my respect, because I see that she, as well as others, continued and are seriously researching, and adding to what has been pondered all these many years. If you think she is doing the right thing say so. If you think she is not, say it in a civil manner, or go to a website that caters to child like antics, and thoughless reactions. Just my thoughts and I'm glad I have stated them.

Tatiana

Quote

Hi there! Been awhile. I see the same debates rage on. I've missed all of you. Glad to see Tedders is still kicking...

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on December 06, 2005, 01:07:48 PM
If there wasn't some kind of plot to rescue Nicholas II, why did someone build a house for him in Murmansk as told to us my others, including Phil Tomaselli source found in the archives:

Quote
I would be delighted to see Elizaveta's source for the Naval Officer with a family of seven.  I would find it hard to think of a worse place for anyone to wish to take their family at any time.

On the other hand the reference to the house being connected to the Royal family comes from British National Archives (Public Record Office) Admiralty File ADM137/1714 p138 which reads (in part):

"Following received via Christiana from Naval Attache Petrograd for SNO Murmansk begins:

"I have received from Mr Browd on behalf of the Murmansk Scientific Industrial Coy. the offer of the building to be erected on the Dived Company's land near the British Consulate Murmansk FORMERLY INTENDED FOR THE LATE CZAR" (my capitalisation).

The telegram is dated 10th August 1918.  I have a copy of it on my desk.  I stumbled upon it about 10 years ago and it has been partly responsible for convincing me that there was more going on than is commonly realised.

This is a Royal Naval telegram addressed to the Senior Naval Officer at Murmansk and comes from the British Naval Attache at Petrograd, Francis Cromie, a man plotting the overthrow of Lenin & Co and sabotage of the Baltic Fleet.  This telegram is not a mistake.

Phil Tomaselli

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on December 06, 2005, 01:15:12 PM
Quote


I assume that Phil means that there were no airplanes capable of a non-stop flight from Ekaterinburg to Vladivostock. But what about a series of jumps, i.e. flights of shorter length? The plane could put down every hundred miles or so and refuel, right? Assuming that there were, you know, landing strips of some kind and fuel available, right?

So it was Tatiana who escaped . . .that actually makes sense. It was Klara Peuthart who identified Anna Andersen as Tatiana, wasn't it? Maybe she had it right.

Okay. Tatiana got out by plane, according to Occleshaw. Anastasia was wandering around Perm, according to eyewitnesses in Summers and Mangold's The File on the Tsar. Olga was living on Lake Como, according to Prince Sigismund of Prussia.  Botkin, Demidova, Trupp and Kharitonov were probably killed in the Ipatiev House because they weren't imperial, and therefore no one was plotting to rescue them, poor beasts.  That leaves Maria, Nicholas, Alexandra and Alexei. Does anyone have any theories about them?


I'll have to ask Phil what was meant.

 I believe there were claimants for not just the Imperial Family members but also for some of the others, however, they are rarely mentioned.  So, your thoughts about "poor beasts" not being remembered by claimants is in error.

We talked about this sometime ago.  I think someone came up with several claimants but I do't recall which ones.

One of the eye witnesses also saw Alexei with Anastasia.  I'lll have to go over to the Perm thread and find it and bring that data here.


AGRBear

PS  Didn't find my quote in the Perm thread.  Now,  I'll have to remember where I read it and then I'll give you the quote and the source.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on December 06, 2005, 02:18:12 PM
While looking for some information I reread part of the Summers and Mangold book's chapter titled "Perm and Beyond" in File On the Tsar p. 347-7.

They were talking about the Perm evidence found my Kirsta and others:
>>Could all this new evidence relect a complex attempt by the Bolsviks to suggest the Romanov women were alive, when in fact, they had all bee n killed at Ekaterinburg?  The motive would presumably have been to hoodwink German intellliigence in Perm, and thus bolster the diplomatic assurances tey were giving in Moscow.  But since witnesses actually saw a group they "recongized" as the imperial family, we would have to accept that the Bolsheviks went so far as to use actors as understudies for the missing Romanovs, and kept them locked up for many weeks just to create the necessary illusion....The war ended altogether in Novemember. Yes the evidence collected at Perm covers the Romanovs' travels up to and after the fall of Perm to the Whites as late as Christmas 1918; some of the testimony was still turning up in June 1919, a year after the family vanished from Ekaterinburg."

In other words, the evidence of survival at and after Perm covers a period when the Bolsheviks no longer had a motive for deceiving anybody."<<

In fact, Kirsta continued to believe parts of the family were not killed in Ekaterinburg and sent agents to various towns and villages to discover new evidence.

Kirsta fate was  not known when Summers and Mangold wrote their book.  From what they tell us,  Kirsta vanished sometime after June 1919 when Perm fell to the Reds.

General Diterikhs seems to go out of his way to discredit Kirsta's character.

I can't help but wonder about all the data he had collected and how it may have changed our way of thinking today about what happen that night of 16/17 July 1918 in the Ipatiev House.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on December 06, 2005, 02:30:14 PM
THE FILE ON THE TSAR by Summers and Mangold p. 342:

>>...In September, nearer the ate of the incident at Siding 37, a witness called Stefanida Podorova testified to Kiersta that she had heard from a combination of two other people, that a girl and a boy had been arrested on board a train; "the girl who had been caught in the carriage was the daughter of the former sovereign..it was known that a search had been carried out in the train..she had been badly beaten up, her cheek was slashed, she had been beated with a whip, and taken to some carriage which was standing in the road,, together with the boy..."  Out of this grew a rumour that the Grand Ducness Anastasia was on the run with her brother Alexei.<<

A very good witness who proves us with information that the trains were being serached at that time was the chief of the Swedish Red Cross mission, Count Carl Bonde.  See p. 343.  He mentioned that they train was being searched for "Grand Duchess Anastasia, daughter of the Tsar Nicholas II."


AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on December 06, 2005, 05:27:35 PM
Quote

I'll have to ask Phil what was meant.

  I believe there were claimants for not just the Imperial Family members but also for some of the others, however, they are rarely mentioned.  So, your thoughts about "poor beasts" not being remembered by claimants is in error.

We talked about this sometime ago.  I think someone came up with several claimants but I do't recall which ones.

One of the eye witnesses also saw Alexei with Anastasia.  I'lll have to go over to the Perm thread and find it and bring that data here.


AGRBear

PS  Didn't find my quote in the Perm thread.  Now,  I'll have to remember where I read it and then I'll give you the quote and the source.


Dear Bear,

I did post a query about servant pretenders on the appropriate thread months ago, and as of today no one has identified one. You certainly never did. I also didn't say they were not remembered, I said they weren't impersonated. Also, I knew where the appropriate source for the sightings in Perm was --- I think I mentioned The File on the Tsar in my post. What I do not understand is how all of these conflicting reports of sightings and trains being searched can be reconciled.

And while I appreciate the effort to ask Phil, I already know that there were planes that were capable of making the kind of flight I describe in my post by 1918. I accept his expert's opinion that there was no plane capable of making the flight to Vladivostock in one jump. I would also be interested in how you can reconcile Tatiana being flown out with the diaries of Alexandra, the "eyewitness" testimony of the guards (or is eyewitness testimony only accepted when it confirms one of your speculations?) or --- and here comes the hard part --- the fact that both the Russian and American forensic teams identified the remains of Tatiana Nikolaevna as present in the gravesite near Ekaterinburg.

In other words, what are we talking about here? Can we introduce a speculation that Tatiana escaped from England in 1928 and returned to Ekaterinburg and shot herself out of remorse for having survived, but conveniently arranged it so that she would be placed into the grave? Because you addressed none of my questions in your "response" to my post, but set up several unsupported statements as though they were facts. I didn't ask for sources, I have the sources. What I asked is how you reconcile them when they conflict.

I would assume you do it the same way I or anyone else does when presented with contradictory testimonies (Summers and Mangold include Tatiana as one of the Romanov women at Perm, so she couldn't have been bi-planing over the steppes at the time). You weigh the evidence. I noticed in your fairly garbled series of assertions about "Elizabeth" Jefferson Hospital over on the other thread that you seem to regard a request for evidence as an impediment to the search for truth. Things do not happen merely because we say they do. So what I was asking in my post, and what I am asking in this one, is which of these stories do you find credible and why?

Regards,

Simon


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on December 06, 2005, 05:48:48 PM
Remember the Perm 'sightings' were only invented by the Bolsheviks to cover up for the fact that Alexandra and the girls had also been shot after the Germans had said in the treaty that the 'princesses of German blood' be delivered safely to them and they didn't want to anger them. Therefore, they spread rumors they were being seen here and there to throw off suspicion they were dead. According to the memoirs of an assassin who killed Ella and the others with her, they "returned and rang the bell, announcing the prisoners had been taken way by unknown persons!" So this is proof they did lie to cover up they killed people. Ironically, the plan to cover up the fact that they were DEAD ended up causing some to use it to claim they were alive! As you know, I discount "File on the Tsar" and have since it was new when I was only 15. I do not consider it a valid source, and am quite tired of bear quoting it constantly.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on December 06, 2005, 06:05:10 PM
Quote
Remember the Perm 'sightings' were only invented by the Bolsheviks to cover up for the fact that Alexandra and the girls had also been shot after the Germans had said in the treaty that the 'princesses of German blood' be delivered safely to them and they didn't want to anger them. Therefore, they spread rumors they were being seen here and there to throw off suspicion they were dead. According to the memoirs of an assassin who killed Ella and the others with her, they "returned and rang the bell, announcing the prisoners had been taken way by unknown persons!" So this is proof they did lie to cover up they killed people. Ironically, the plan to cover up the fact that they were DEAD ended up causing some to use it to claim they were alive! As you know, I discount "File on the Tsar" and have since it was new when I was only 15. I do not consider it a valid source, and am quite tired of bear quoting it constantly.



I am in a bit of a snarky mood about information, so can I ask for your source for the "reason" for the creation of the Perm sightings? I am familiar with the testimony regarding Ella et alia's executions, but the motive for the dissemination of the Perm stories is not something I have heard before.

Regards,

Simon
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on December 06, 2005, 06:10:10 PM
Quote

Dear Bear,

I did post a query about servant pretenders on the appropriate thread months ago, and as of today no one has identified one. You certainly never did. I also didn't say they were not remembered, I said they weren't impersonated. Also, I knew where the appropriate source for the sightings in Perm was --- I think I mentioned The File on the Tsar in my post. What I do not understand is how all of these conflicting reports of sightings and trains being searched can be reconciled.

And while I appreciate the effort to ask Phil, I already know that there were planes that were capable of making the kind of flight I describe in my post by 1918. I accept his expert's opinion that there was no plane capable of making the flight to Vladivostock in one jump. I would also be interested in how you can reconcile Tatiana being flown out with the diaries of Alexandra, the "eyewitness" testimony of the guards (or is eyewitness testimony only accepted when it confirms one of your speculations?) or --- and here comes the hard part --- the fact that both the Russian and American forensic teams identified the remains of Tatiana Nikolaevna as present in the gravesite near Ekaterinburg.

In other words, what are we talking about here? Can we introduce a speculation that Tatiana escaped from England in 1928 and returned to Ekaterinburg and shot herself out of remorse for having survived, but conveniently arranged it so that she would be placed into the grave? Because you addressed none of my questions in your "response" to my post, but set up several unsupported statements as though they were facts. I didn't ask for sources, I have the sources. What I asked is how you reconcile them when they conflict.

I would assume you do it the same way I or anyone else does when presented with contradictory testimonies (Summers and Mangold include Tatiana as one of the Romanov women at Perm, so she couldn't have been bi-planing over the steppes at the time). You weigh the evidence. I noticed in your fairly garbled series of assertions about "Elizabeth" Jefferson Hospital over on the other thread that you seem to regard a request for evidence as an impediment to the search for truth. Things do not happen merely because we say they do. So what I was asking in my post, and what I am asking in this one, is which of these stories do you find credible and why?

Regards,

Simon


    Simon has made a very insiteful point and posted it without anything even vaguely resembling hostility or abuse of any sort!  :D
*Tania - your efforts to make posters 'behave' have succeeded! You should be so happy! :)*

I must agree with Simon -- I cannot understand what was supposed to have occured regarding this Tatianna and her  "body".
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 06, 2005, 07:41:48 PM
Quote

I am in a bit of a snarky mood about information, so can I ask for your source for the "reason" for the creation of the Perm sightings? I am familiar with the testimony regarding Ella et alia's executions, but the motive for the dissemination of the Perm stories is not something I have heard before.

Regards,

Simon


Simon,

I may be able to answer part of your question, at least in an indirect way. Lenin, et al, seemed a little nervous about letting out the story that all - including children, animals and servants were killed that night. They did not know what kind of a reaction to expect from the rest of the world, and being on shaky ground to begin with they decided to initially create an official story that only the Tsar was killed (with a variation that included the heir), but that the rest of the family was taken to a "safe place".  This was the official story for a while, until they finally felt confident enough in themselves to let the whole story be known, i.e. that all were killed... children and dogs included.

Here is a July 20th, 1918 New York Times newspaper clipping that tells us just that.....

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/helenazar/newspaper.jpg)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on December 06, 2005, 08:01:23 PM
Thanks Helen.

They did not admit to killing the entire family for a long time so naturally they would spread false info about them being alive, like a paper as big as the NY Times being fooled.

As far as it applying directly to the Perm fabrications, it was FA who originally posted the details of what I posted, but with so many threads I don't remember where. Maybe he can post it again if he has time.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on December 06, 2005, 11:10:52 PM
Quote

Dear Bear,

I did post a query about servant pretenders on the appropriate thread months ago, and as of today no one has identified one. You certainly never did.


It was not I who identified the servant pretenders in the first place, it was someone else, although it was I who mentioned someone had when it was brought into the discussion of which you and I were a part.  When going back to some of the threads where I thought I might find the answer,  I did not.  I would have returned to that thread and given you the story about the people involved if I had.  I, also,  had hopes the person who had mentioned them would tell us.  But,  that person may not be with us any longer, unfortunately.  

Quote
I also didn't say they were not remembered, I said they weren't impersonated.


According to the source given earlier by the poster there were people who did impersonate those who died who were not "royal".  And,  this is what I meant.  And, to add to this,  it was probably easier to impersonate a servent than it was a Grand Duchess or an ex-Tsar.

Quote
Also, I knew where the appropriate source for the sightings in Perm was --- I think I mentioned The File on the Tsar in my post.


True.

Quote
What I do not understand is how all of these conflicting reports of sightings and trains being searched can be reconciled.


It can not be reconciled.  The various testimonies provides us with a  number of people with the same kind of stories which tell us that the trains were being searched for "GD Anastasia" and "Alexei" and not for Tatiana or Olga or Maria during that time period.

I believe the stories about GD Anastasia "escape" was told by a variety of people who did not know each other nor were they all closely associated with the Reds or CHEKA.

p. 348 Summers and Mangold tell us:
>>By 7 April 1919 Alexander Kirsta, who had done most of the vital detective work, was convinced he had effectively broken the cases.  He reported to General Gaida:  "I have carried out Your Exellency's order concerning the inquiries into the case of the imperial family, according to the facts available in Perm; and now as far as Perm is concerned there remain some details and a few facts to check to complete the picutre as reconstructed by me."<<

Unfortunately for Kirsta,  the Reds advanced and the White retreated.  And, Kirsta vanished.  How fortunate for the Whites and the Reds.  Both the White and the Reds wanted the world to believe all eleven had been executed.

Apparently, Kirsta believed Alexandra and at least three, maybe four,  of her daughters were held in Perm for a time by the CHEKA and that it was possible that GD Anastasia and Alexei may have attempted an escape or did escape.  We don't know his conclusions since we do not have Kirsta's last report to read.

Quote
And while I appreciate the effort to ask Phil, I already know that there were planes that were capable of making the kind of flight I describe in my post by 1918. I accept his expert's opinion that there was no plane capable of making the flight to Vladivostock in one jump.


To this I merely added some questions of my own which I will ask Phil when I get a chance and some I'll have to dig out some of my books about the pilots and planes being flown in Siberia at that time.

It was not my intent to make it appear that you are not aware of the planes used in 1918.

Quote
I would also be interested in how you can reconcile Tatiana being flown out with the diaries of Alexandra, the "eyewitness" testimony of the guards (or is eyewitness testimony only accepted when it confirms one of your speculations?) or --- and here comes the hard part --- the fact that both the Russian and American forensic teams identified the remains of Tatiana Nikolaevna as present in the gravesite near Ekaterinburg.


The airplane rescue was about Tatiana and not Anastasia or Maria.  This is a different set of theories which I did not invented but merely presented to this forum, again, since it has been discussed earlier.

I believe some CHEKA and later the KGB hired excellent forgers so adding words to diaries was an easy task if it had been necessary.  In fact,  Yurovsky had made a living at forging papers for people who needed them for travel and this included photography.  If one waited for the officials and legal papers,  no one would have  escaped from Russia, including my own ancestors.

Not everyone believed that it was Anastasia or Maria who is missing from the grave.

This was not meant to confuse you.  It was merely a "change of direction" on the same subject matter  "survivors".

Quote
In other words, what are we talking about here? Can we introduce a speculation that Tatiana escaped from England in 1928 and returned to Ekaterinburg and shot herself out of remorse for having survived, but conveniently arranged it so that she would be placed into the grave?[/quote'

There is one daughter missing.   The Americans think it is Anastasia.  The Russians think it was Maria.  And Occleshaw and the gals who put togather a nice website explaining why they believe it was Tatiana [mentioned earlier], also, believed it was Tatiana.  Me,  I really don't know who is missing.

As for returning to Ekaterinburg in 1928,  I am not sure your meaning?  Are you asking if someone dug up the body of the woman Occleshaw claimed was Tatiana and placed it in the mass grave?  The mass grave has been opened a number of times. However, I do not think there has been a suggestion on my part that this is what I thought occured.

Quote
Because you addressed none of my questions in your "response" to my post, but set up several unsupported statements as though they were facts. I didn't ask for sources, I have the sources. What I asked is how you reconcile them when they conflict.


What "facts" have I mentioned without a source being included.  A moment ago you were complaining that I added a source when you had mentioned the source.  What I did  was add the page numbers which I thought some of the posters might like to read for themselves.

How do I reconcile the conflicts?  I haven't and that is why I keep asking questions.

Quote
I would assume you do it the same way I or anyone else does when presented with contradictory testimonies (Summers and Mangold include Tatiana as one of the Romanov women at Perm, so she couldn't have been bi-planing over the steppes at the time).


Summers and Magnold told us there was testimony about four GDuchesses being  with Alexandra in Perm as mentioned in  Alexandra Krivopdenova.  This woman did not name them in her statement.  Another woman, Natalya Mutnykh did not recall the number being three or four GDuchesses.  She, however, mention the one whom she thought was Olga...

Summers and Mangold were giving us new information which I hadn't read in any book prior to their book.  

Kirsta was gathering information and making conclusions becuase of the many stories he heard and not because of just one story from one person.

A Yevgeniya Sokolova talked about seeing just three daughters being taken from Perm to Glazov....

You weigh all the testimony and see what common threads there are in these stories.


Quote
You weigh the evidence.


True.


Quote
I noticed in your fairly garbled series of assertions about "Elizabeth" Jefferson Hospital over on the other thread that you seem to regard a request for evidence as an impediment to the search for truth. Things do not happen merely because we say they do. So what I was asking in my post, and what I am asking in this one, is which of these stories do you find credible and why?

Regards,

Simon


Unlike many posters,  I really do not care in what direction  the "truths" take me on this adventure which has taken me  into the lives of Nicholas II and the ten others whom the CHEKA claimed to have executed in the basement of the Ipatiev House on the night of 16/17 July 1918.  Perhaps,  this is why it is not difficult for me to see everyone's point of view and to present sources even though this may not support  my personal  views.  This way of thinking may be confusing you and other posters.  For example, just because I mention Tatiana as being suggested as being the missing daughter, doesn't mean that is what I think.    This is a forum based on discussions.

I apologize if this has confused you and others.

A good discussion is knowing and understanding as much as one can about the subject and learn to discuss all sides with as much understanding and knowledge as one can collect.  This can only strenghten a person's own personal conclusions when all is said and done.

At this time,  I do not have a personal conclusion on which daughter of Nicholas II is missing from the grave.

As to the Martha Jefferson Hosptial posts on other threads,  how can I reply when I've been told this is a "forbidden" topic for me on this forum.
I am sorry that you believe what I have said was "garbled".

If I have still failed to answer your question or that I may have "garbled" my post, again,  then let me just say,  I tried.  


AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on December 06, 2005, 11:26:10 PM
Thanks, Bear. You have answered my questions through the manner in which you have chosen to address them. Apparently your standards for "eyewitnesses" are reduced to (1) whether they appeared in print or (2) whether they contradict the generally accepted scenario of what happened at the Ipatiev House on the night of July 16-17, 1918. If an eyewitness meets these standards, he or she is automatically credible.

The name of the hospital is Martha Jefferson. I mention this not to nitpick, but because it is such an obvious mistake.

If you cannot produce any evidence in support of these speculations, could you at least address the question "Why do you persist in producing them?" This isn't a search for truth, since you apply no recognized academic standards to your inquiries. I am truly curious.

Regards,

Simon
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on December 06, 2005, 11:31:25 PM
Helen.

Thanks for reproducing the article. I have seen it, and I follow the train of logic that you use to surmise what happened. I guess what I was looking for was hard evidence that this is in fact what was ordered for the reasons you give --- notes or letters spelling it out from the Soviet government's point of view.

Regards,

Simon
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on December 06, 2005, 11:45:17 PM
Quote
Remember the Perm 'sightings' were only invented by the Bolsheviks to cover up for the fact that Alexandra and the girls had also been shot after the Germans had said in the treaty that the 'princesses of German blood' be delivered safely to them and they didn't want to anger them. Therefore, they spread rumors they were being seen here and there to throw off suspicion they were dead. According to the memoirs of an assassin who killed Ella and the others with her, they "returned and rang the bell, announcing the prisoners had been taken way by unknown persons!" So this is proof they did lie to cover up they killed people. Ironically, the plan to cover up the fact that they were DEAD ended up causing some to use it to claim they were alive! As you know, I discount "File on the Tsar" and have since it was new when I was only 15. I do not consider it a valid source, and am quite tired of bear quoting it constantly.



Annie believes the Perm sightings were an invention of the Bolsheviks.  That is her opinion.  However,  there is testimony which provides us with information from eye witnesses who tell us that Alexandera and three or four of her daughters were in Perm.

It was I who provided Annie with information about the Germans and their attempt to save Alexandra and her children with a  trade which sparked the interest of Lenin and Trotsky at that time and that the Germans ploted to rescue the Imperial Family on or about the 16th of July 1918.

Yes, that is correct, the date was the 16th of July 1918.

Posters have failed to discredit Summers and Mangold's sources in their book FILE ON THE TSAR, however, those who dislike their book,  rarely fail to tell me that they did not like the book.  And, of course,  I have to remind them that the book was written back in the 1970s and a lot was unknown at that time.  And, it was they who found information we had never seen before such as the evidence of the dog found in Four Brothers Mine could not have been placed there in July of 1918 as it had been claimed by the Whites investigating the case of the eleven missing prisioners [Nicholas II and the others].

The one thing I can agree with Annie,  the Bolsheviks did lie to cover up the events which occured around the deaths of the nine found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow and the two missing.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on December 06, 2005, 11:49:32 PM
Martha Jefferson Hospital is correct.

Must be getting late to make such an error.  

I'll go back and correct.

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on December 07, 2005, 12:08:47 AM
Quote
Thanks, Bear. You have answered my questions through the manner in which you have chosen to address them. Apparently your standards for "eyewitnesses" are reduced to (1) whether they appeared in print or (2) whether they contradict the generally accepted scenario of what happened at the Ipatiev House on the night of July 16-17, 1918. If an eyewitness meets these standards, he or she is automatically credible.

The name of the hospital is Martha Jefferson. I mention this not to nitpick, but because it is such an obvious mistake.

If you cannot produce any evidence in support of these speculations, could you at least address the question "Why do you persist in producing them?" This isn't a search for truth, since you apply no recognized academic standards to your inquiries. I am truly curious.

Regards,

Simon


It is not in my power to prove or disprove the testimony collected by Kirsta.

It is within my power to provide the information that there was testimony and that Kirsta saw the evidence differently than Sokolov, the White investigator,  who failed to provide us with the testimony of a great many witnesses who claim they saw Alexandra and some of her daughters in Perm.  Sokolov, also, failed to give us the testimony that gave us even a hint that the Reds had been searching the trains for Anastasia and Alexei, who, by the way, just happen to be missing from the mass grave.

Testimony, as far as I know, is not speculation.  It was given to the officials involved in the investigation.

I do not see Sokolov as being unbiase in his investigation and therefore I feel uneasy to make conclusions from his collection of evidence, which includes the dog found in the Four Brother's Mine and omits Kirsta's findings which hinted one or two of Nicholas II's children may have escaped.

The Tatiana research done by Occleshaw is speculation on his part,  and,  not my own.  I, again, merely presented it since Occleshaw mentioned the airplane as a means of escape.

Can I not ask if if was possible that some pilots did use  airplanes to rescue one. maybe, two  of the missing  children of Nicholas II who's bones have not been found even though Yurovsky explained where they should be found?

This thread is about "surivor theories".

AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Azarias on December 07, 2005, 02:20:25 AM
Honestly, I cannot imagine that there were any survivors of the Impatiev basement. Given the singleness of purpose the executioners had, and the brutality involved how could there be any survivors?

Does anyone really believe they would not have been completely careful in the mission to erradicate the IF?
They were sure enough to take Demidova, Trupp, Khartinitov, and Botkin - not to mention Jemmy!
Was there any real purpose in murdering the servants as well?

The Romanov's were young, powerful, wealthy, titled and quite beautiful. It's also a romantic Victorian tradgety. Perhaps this is what makes people want to believe in survivors - it's all the perfect ending, or is it?

I guess some just love sequels.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on December 07, 2005, 07:05:53 AM
Quote

Annie believes the Perm sightings were an invention of the Bolsheviks.  That is her opinion.


Nope, FA once posted the 'hard evidence' Louis is looking for, and that's where I got this from. I never thought of it before that. I hope FA will come forth with this again as I can't find it. It was true.

Quote
 there is testimony which provides us with information from eye witnesses who tell us that Alexandera and three or four of her daughters were in Perm.



"Eyewitnesses" or people setting up a story they weren't killed? If we're back to he said she said, it's just as bad as shoes and tubs again, we really have nothing but a lot of contradicting reports.

The silliest thing about the Perm stories and the biggest nail in their coffin is the fact that the bodies were found in the same grave near Ekaterinburg. Do you expect us to believe they went to Perm, lived a few days, then got shot and were taken back to exactly the SAME hole? This is ridiculous! And good ole "File on the Tsar" which touted this was written before the bodies were found. I bet even the authors don't believe their theory anymore!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on December 07, 2005, 11:15:31 AM
Quote
Honestly, I cannot imagine that there were any survivors of the Impatiev basement. Given the singleness of purpose the executioners had, and the brutality involved how could there be any survivors?

Does anyone really believe they would not have been completely careful in the mission to erradicate the IF?
They were sure enough to take Demidova, Trupp, Khartinitov, and Botkin - not to mention Jemmy!
Was there any real purpose in murdering the servants as well?

The Romanov's were young, powerful, wealthy, titled and quite beautiful. It's also a romantic Victorian tradgety. Perhaps this is what makes people want to believe in survivors - it's all the perfect ending, or is it?

I guess some just love sequels.



It's the "Harlequin Romance" mentality writ large....They'll never stop....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Azarias on December 07, 2005, 01:56:24 PM
I rest my case.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on December 07, 2005, 06:00:46 PM
Quote

Nope, FA once posted the 'hard evidence' Louis is looking for, and that's where I got this from. I never thought of it before that. I hope FA will come forth with this again as I can't find it. It was true.


At this time I withhold comments since I do not recall the "hard evidence".


Quote
"Eyewitnesses" or people setting up a story they weren't killed? If we're back to he said she said, it's just as bad as shoes and tubs again, we really have nothing but a lot of contradicting reports.


From what I understand,  there were more than twenty different people who gave testimony and all talked about seeing Alexandra, three or four Grand Duchesses, and, Alexei.  And, it was enough to convince Kirsta who was one of the investigators who was not under the thumb of General Diterikhs.

In case your are not aware,  General Diterikhs took from Sokolov all of his papers for a time and did not give all of them back to Sokolov.  Why?  Was it because he had Kirsta's papers which showed something else may have occured.  Did Diterikhs take those papers and maybe other evidence that may have hinted any kind of escape occured?  I don't know.  You don't know.  No one knows accept Dieterikhs, Sokolov and those involved and no one left any notes on Dieterikhs actions toward those papers.

p. 170 FILE ON THE TSAR  by Summers and Mangold:

>>"...British diplomatic records show that Diterikhs held the volumes of evidence "ready bound and prepared but neither signed nor sealed."<<

While Sokolov was running from Ekaterinburg as fast as he could, he >>...stopped at Chiata, headquarters of Ataman Semyonov, a White warlord who was a law unto himself in the territory he controlled.  Here he ran into accusations tht he was pupossely concealing information that the tsar was still live<<

Why did Semyonov think the Tsar was still alive?

Quote
The silliest thing about the Perm stories and the biggest nail in their coffin is the fact that the bodies were found in the same grave near Ekaterinburg. Do you expect us to believe they went to Perm, lived a few days, then got shot and were taken back to exactly the SAME hole? This is ridiculous! And good ole "File on the Tsar" which touted this was written before the bodies were found. I bet even the authors don't believe their theory anymore!


There were no coffins or nails involved in  the buriel of the nine in the mass grave.  And,  as you know, there are far too many bones missing from this grave which indicates this is not where some of them were buried second, if one counts the Four Brother's Mine as the first buriel sight.

Over on the thread of Questions about Pig's Meadow grave is an interesting conversation just about the bones as well as diagrams.  There is a statement from the Russian woman who was present at the time the bones were dug up who was suprised at the lack of bones.  There is another diagram which shows you which bones are missing.   Along with this are forensic facts about the bones, effect of acid, etc. etc..  And, this evidence seems to indicate some of the bodies had been reburied.   If this is true, then we have to realize we are missing part of the story of what happen to some of the nine who had not been buried in the mass grave on the 17th of July 1918 as told to us by Yurovsky.  If not, then why not?

Maples is right when he said:  DEAD MEN TO TELL TALES.  And, it appears that the missing bones are screaming out at us but only a few are listening.

I do not think Annie is in any kind of position to know what Summers and Mangold think at this time.

Again, let me note,  Summers and Mangold  never believed Anna Anderson was GD Anastasia.  As to various speculations, those are clearly voiced as speculations,  and, these  speculations were based on testimonies and  evidence.

Until some of you realize that there are too many bones missing from the mass grave,  and, that it is possible that not all nine were buried in Pig's Meadow on the 17th of July,  then we will continue this merry-go-'round as we have been.

And,  like, now,  I have to explain all over again,  about the missing bones from the mass grave and the second grave which Yurovsky claims Alexei and Demdova were buried.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on December 07, 2005, 06:02:15 PM
This case is not closed for me and others.

Quote

Nope, FA once posted the 'hard evidence' Louis is looking for, and that's where I got this from. I never thought of it before that. I hope FA will come forth with this again as I can't find it. It was true.


At this time I withhold comments since I do not recall the "hard evidence".


Quote
"Eyewitnesses" or people setting up a story they weren't killed? If we're back to he said she said, it's just as bad as shoes and tubs again, we really have nothing but a lot of contradicting reports.


From what I understand,  there were more than twenty different people who gave testimony and all talked about seeing Alexandra, three or four Grand Duchesses, and, Alexei.  And, it was enough to convince Kirsta who was one of the investigators who was not under the thumb of General Diterikhs.

In case your are not aware,  General Diterikhs took from Sokolov all of his papers for a time and did not give all of them back to Sokolov.  Why?  Was it because he had Kirsta's papers which showed something else may have occured.  Did Diterikhs take those papers and maybe other evidence that may have hinted any kind of escape occured?  I don't know.  You don't know.  No one knows accept Dieterikhs, Sokolov and those involved and no one left any notes on Dieterikhs actions toward those papers.

p. 170 FILE ON THE TSAR  by Summers and Mangold:

>>"...British diplomatic records show that Diterikhs held the volumes of evidence "ready bound and prepared but neither signed nor sealed."<<

While Sokolov was running from Ekaterinburg as fast as he could, he >>...stopped at Chiata, headquarters of Ataman Semyonov, a White warlord who was a law unto himself in the territory he controlled.  Here he ran into accusations tht he was pupossely concealing information that the tsar was still live<<

Why did Semyonov think the Tsar was still alive?

Quote
The silliest thing about the Perm stories and the biggest nail in their coffin is the fact that the bodies were found in the same grave near Ekaterinburg. Do you expect us to believe they went to Perm, lived a few days, then got shot and were taken back to exactly the SAME hole? This is ridiculous! And good ole "File on the Tsar" which touted this was written before the bodies were found. I bet even the authors don't believe their theory anymore!


There were no coffins or nails involved in  the buriel of the nine in the mass grave.  And,  as you know, there are far too many bones missing from this grave which indicates this is not where some of them were buried second, if one counts the Four Brother's Mine as the first buriel sight.

Over on the thread of Questions about Pig's Meadow grave is an interesting conversation just about the bones as well as diagrams.  There is a statement from the Russian woman who was present at the time the bones were dug up who was suprised at the lack of bones.  There is another diagram which shows you which bones are missing.   Along with this are forensic facts about the bones, effect of acid, etc. etc..  And, this evidence seems to indicate some of the bodies had been reburied.   If this is true, then we have to realize we are missing part of the story of what happen to some of the nine who had not been buried in the mass grave on the 17th of July 1918 as told to us by Yurovsky.  If not, then why not?

Maples is right when he said:  DEAD MEN TO TELL TALES.  And, it appears that the missing bones are screaming out at us but only a few are listening.

I do not think Annie is in any kind of position to know what Summers and Mangold think at this time.

Again, let me note,  Summers and Mangold  never believed Anna Anderson was GD Anastasia.  As to various speculations, those are clearly voiced as speculations,  and, these  speculations were based on testimonies and  evidence.

Until some of you realize that there are too many bones missing from the mass grave,  and, that it is possible that not all nine were buried in Pig's Meadow on the 17th of July,  then we will continue this merry-go-'round as we have been.

And,  like, now,  I have to explain all over again,  about the missing bones from the mass grave and the other grave which Yurovsky claims Alexei and Demdova were buried.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on December 07, 2005, 06:07:12 PM
Quote
As a point of information, one of the main reasons that bones "go missing" is often because bodies are moved or (as in neolithic burial practices) the bodies are exposed and then the bones collected & buried later.  This means that smaller bones such as fingers & toes tend to drop off at the original site & get overlooked in the move.  I know all about this as my wife is doing a course on prehistoric ritual practices & I hear about it regularly.

On the general subject of Shay's book (& I have to point out that I receive a mention in the credits) I wish she'd give up on her obsession with "Rescuing the Czar" (the only book to make me laugh out loud in the Reading Room of the British Library) but work on some of the other threads.  Certainly there does appear to have been a British rescue plan in 1917/early 1918 involving the "Tsar's House" at Murmansk, built by the Hudson Bay Company and paid for by British Naval Intelligence and Secret Intelligence Service (MI6).

Phil Tomaselli

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on December 07, 2005, 06:20:39 PM
Quote
Ivan Koryakov and Lydmilla Koryakova, probably the two most experienced forensic anthropologists of the Russians who exhumed the grave and assisted in the first examinations, concluded that yes, the bodies had been in the grave for approximately 70 years or so, based a number of factors.  They were not "recent" plants-a judgment with which everyone we talked to for "Fate of the Romanovs" and indeed everyone involved-Maples, Falsetti, Levine, France-at the US end, agreed.

However, for what it's worth, I do think the grave was opened perhaps twice-I suspect once in the late 1920s, under Stalin's orders (at the same time as Anna Anderson began to get a lot of publicity in the West), perhaps to see how many bodies really were there, and again sometime between 1979 or 1980 and 1991; we go into the evidence for this second opening in "Fate," and it seems pretty conclusive to me.  But we don't think it was to plant bodies or evidence-probably curiosity, or even accidental.  The first, back in the 1920s, would, I think, have been to ascertain how many were present, to corroborate what Yurovsky said; I don't think it's necessarily an accident that only after 1928 do the various accounts become quite specific regarding Anastasia being cremated-as if they feared AA might be the genuine article (which has nothing to do with the claim itself, mind you-merely the perception on the part of the Soviets) and thus began to pepper statements with accounts of her death.

One conundrum is not only the state of the exhumed remains-Koryakova was horrified at how disarticulated the skeletons were-it was not the ordinary result of disintegration, nor the side-effects of the earlier digs-but more to the point-that two-thirds of what should have been there was simply missing-they never recovered enough bones to account for three human beings, much less nine, though they had the correct number of skulls, six still attached to spinal columns and vertebrae (meaning they weren't just tossed in to provide the missing numbers).  Maples told me he had worked on cases where only portions of buried bodies were recovered-that was normal-but usually the most you could expect to be missing were 50-100 bones tops per person; here, far more were absent.  And it can't be put down to simple disintegration (Koryakova said no when asked about this) nor to the various digs and exhumations-they just weren't there.  Even taking into account the expected amount of missing skeletal remains, the Romanov grave puzzled all of the scientists with its sheer lack of bones.  I suspect (only a theory) that some of these were probably exhumed either in the 1920s or between 1980-91 and disappeared into some lab in Moscow to be analyzed.  There's never been another explanation for this-and the grave itself was intact though disturbed, meaning it hadn't been dug up by animals or forraged-a difficult task anyway given the layers of railway ties, stones, brush, and more ties that had been placed on top of it.

Greg King

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Eternal_Princess on December 21, 2005, 02:28:21 PM
Firstly questions.

1. Survivors? I believe I'll have to give this one a tentative Yes, more based on inconclusive information and some mysterious reading I've been doing on George V of England.

2. Absolutely not. Big NO

Statistics:

1. Female. Scorpio, I am not partial to dogs or cats, though I do have one of each. (An Australian Border Collie and a big Ginger Moggie)

2. I am a proud little Itallian/Australian.

3. 19. Makes me an adult and legal in my country for the past year.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: PssMarieAmelie on December 22, 2005, 04:07:35 AM
Quote
Firstly questions.

1. Survivors? I believe I'll have to give this one a tentative Yes, more based on inconclusive information and some mysterious reading I've been doing on George V of England.

2. Absolutely not. Big NO

Statistics:

1. Female. Scorpio, I am not partial to dogs or cats, though I do have one of each. (An Australian Border Collie and a big Ginger Moggie)

2. I am a proud little Itallian/Australian.

3. 19. Makes me an adult and legal in my country for the past year.



Nice to see another Aussie on here. I feel relieved to know that I'm not the only person who's from SA who's a member on this forum. ;D ;)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on December 22, 2005, 07:15:46 AM
Quote
Firstly questions.

1. Survivors? I believe I'll have to give this one a tentative Yes, more based on inconclusive information and some mysterious reading I've been doing on George V of England.


This is new to me, a theory I've never heard. I am always interested in new theories, instead of tired old dried out AA stuff. Please tell us more if you can.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on December 22, 2005, 09:46:32 AM
The spirit known as...Captain Howdy...from my Ouija board says...Yes, there were survivours...I can say no more.... ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on December 22, 2005, 10:21:46 AM
Sometimes one is tempted to applaud autocracy.... rather than the current spirit of democracy...... where even the most witless are allowed an opinion....... and to comment........... and somehow it's assumed to be important......................
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Eternal_Princess on December 22, 2005, 10:23:39 AM

Hi Grand Duchess Kira Martinovna, another South Aussie, I was getting lonesome ;D!  How are you liking the weather at the moment? 38c today!

Quote

This is new to me, a theory I've never heard. I am always interested in new theories, instead of tired old dried out AA stuff. Please tell us more if you can.




Ah, if I told anyone, I'd have to kill them ;) this is recent stuff I've been compiling for my novel and it's wild theory, it's based on that telegram he recieved. I can't say more at this stage, but I'll let you have a tibit:

Silly Billy has something to do with this as well. :-X

I'll get back to you when I have all the information and can rely on it completely. (I love espionage, I feel like James Bond!  ;D )
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Kimberly on December 22, 2005, 12:34:38 PM
 ::) ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Rebecca on December 22, 2005, 02:41:30 PM
1. No.
2. Definitely no.

Me:
Female
Living in Sweden, Jewish
Adult
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: PssMarieAmelie on December 22, 2005, 03:41:29 PM
Quote
Hi Grand Duchess Kira Martinovna, another South Aussie, I was getting lonesome ;D!  How are you liking the weather at the moment? 38c today!



Ah, if I told anyone, I'd have to kill them ;) this is recent stuff I've been compiling for my novel and it's wild theory, it's based on that telegram he recieved. I can't say more at this stage, but I'll let you have a tibit:

Silly Billy has something to do with this as well. :-X

I'll get back to you when I have all the information and can rely on it completely. (I love espionage, I feel like James Bond!  ;D )




Sweat drpping off my back already. ;D Have to finish the Christmas shopping today down at Harbourtown. ::)



Ok, I'm being OT here. Back on topic!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Monika on December 22, 2005, 05:57:27 PM
Hello!
 I am new member,and i would like to ask you something ,if you can help me.
 I belive that Anastasia DID survived.I have some climants and i want to chek them.Concerning the fact that almoust all of you are historians ans sientics,i want to know What do i need to do,if i want to show new facts with proofs,about the suviving of A? Any help is wellcome! Thank you
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on December 22, 2005, 07:22:45 PM
Quote
Hello!
  I am new member,and i would like to ask you something ,if you can help me.
  I belive that Anastasia DID survived.I have some climants and i want to chek them.Concerning the fact that almoust all of you are historians ans sientics,i want to know What do i need to do,if i want to show new facts with proofs,about the suviving of A? Any help is wellcome! Thank you



MO...
Please read ALL the threads here first, and try reading a number of good books on this topic in the "recommended reading" thread.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: rskkiya on December 22, 2005, 07:27:29 PM
Quote
Sometimes one is tempted to applaud autocracy.... rather than the current spirit of democracy...... where even the most witless are allowed an opinion....... and to comment........... and somehow it's assumed to be important......................


Ah Phil...
   In an autocracy, its just ONE IDIOT claiming 'the truth'... while here many idiots might all shout what they please - but that doesn't make them any more correct that the Autocrat! ;D

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Ruth_Burk on December 22, 2005, 09:16:08 PM
They survived.... but Ana A, I'm not totally convinced.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Monika on December 23, 2005, 08:03:36 AM
 I do not claim that Ana Anderson was Anastasia,and  you've missunderstand me.I want  to open a private investigation for her surviving.I just want you to help me, what should i do if i know new facts about it,which no one knows.Where sould i talk(not on the forum,in my country).whith who.Shoud i go to the Russian embassy,the arheology sector,some historian,where?
Who can permit me to investigate in my country,for this kind of national investigation?Or i just sould say what i know and leave the job to the experts?But i want to be  apart of that.And i am sure that no one of the experts will belive me,cause this question is closed in 1992,when the last investigation was.I have red the other threads,and i must say you are doing a great job,with informing the people for this mistery.I have learned much of this forum,but i didn't saw anythig simmilar,or close with that what i want to claim.

p.s.Forgive me for my english
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Grace on January 04, 2006, 07:54:33 PM
No survivors - none - not a chance.

I'm sorry I admit I haven't gone through all the pages in this thread but common sense prevails here with me.

The IF of Russia have been (bar two bodies, I admit) positively identified forensically and by DNA.  The two missing bodies is odd, but if Marie/Anastasia survived, don't you think they would have appeared sometime, somewhere in the future?  As for Alexis, NO WAY, when the execution of the IF was planned, would they let him escape...the heir of Nicholas...even though by this time the monarchy had been swept away.

Anna Anderson has had her claim refuted by DNA - WHAT MORE DO PEOPLE NEED?  ???

Honestly, some of these threads are about as sensible as Jim Morrison, Elvis and Diana sharing an apartment somewhere in Africa - just wishful thinking not backed up by any evidence.  Some will just never accept...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on January 04, 2006, 08:32:34 PM
Quote

Honestly, some of these threads are about as sensible as Jim Morrison, Elvis and Diana sharing an apartment somewhere in Africa - just wishful thinking not backed up by any evidence.  Some will just never accept...


Diana has joined them? I hadn't heard!  :D ;)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Grand_Duke_Paul on January 04, 2006, 09:38:48 PM
Quote
No survivors - none - not a chance.

I'm sorry I admit I haven't gone through all the pages in this thread but common sense prevails here with me.

The IF of Russia have been (bar two bodies, I admit) positively identified forensically and by DNA.  The two missing bodies is odd, but if Marie/Anastasia survived, don't you think they would have appeared sometime, somewhere in the future?  As for Alexis, NO WAY, when the execution of the IF was planned, would they let him escape...the heir of Nicholas...even though by this time the monarchy had been swept away.

Anna Anderson has had her claim refuted by DNA - WHAT MORE DO PEOPLE NEED?  ???

Honestly, some of these threads are about as sensible as Jim Morrison, Elvis and Diana sharing an apartment somewhere in Africa - just wishful thinking not backed up by any evidence.  Some will just never accept...



I agree with the first part of your statement, but the last paragraph, I think that is a bit too rude of a statement, there are obviously questions on issues that need to be answered or these threads would not have the life that they obviously do, to equate some of the people here who are asking for answers with those that believe Elvis hasn't left the building and Jim Morisson & Diana POW are somewhere in Africa is a bit ridiculous.

It is obvious that after reading these messages that for some people DNA doesn't have all the answers, and for others it is the magic elixir.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Grace on January 04, 2006, 09:50:41 PM
There was nothing rude in my post at all, Grand Duke Paul.

What I said is that nothing, nothing will convince some people that the royal family of Russia was murdered in July, 1918, the same as nothing will convince some people that Diana and some of the other still-alive improbables that I mentioned are dead.

That is all I said...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Grand_Duke_Paul on January 05, 2006, 12:00:20 AM
Quote
There was nothing rude in my post at all, Grand Duke Paul.

What I said is that nothing, nothing will convince some people that the royal family of Russia was murdered in July, 1918, the same as nothing will convince some people that Diana and some of the other still-alive improbables that I mentioned are dead.

That is all I said...


Grace,

From what I have been reading the past few days it seems that some people will stop at nothing to offend someone, or cut them down on this thread.

I don't think that all of the questions have been answered in this Anna Anderson case, but I feel the no member of the Imperial Family could have survived that massacre.  That being said I know that Elvis, Diana & Jim Morrison are all dead.  From reading the posts and the older threads I see that very few have ever believed that anyone survived the shooting.  I shouldn't have used the word rude, when I meant unfair.  I am by no means a conspiracy theorist, and from reading the posts here not many are. I apologize for saying your post was rude.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on January 05, 2006, 08:23:59 AM
Quote
I'd just like to get a very basic sense of where folks stand on the survivor issue. I'm NOT looking for discussion or debate, or even reasons why you feel the way you do -- just your opinion on these questions. Please, just answer yes or no!

1. Do you believe anyone survived?

2. Do you believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia Nikolaevna?

TIme to get back on topic, gang!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Grace on January 06, 2006, 02:02:48 AM
I think a thread full of "yes" or "no" only perhaps may make it a somewhat uninteresting read.  ???

However, Sarushka, it is your thread and I will abide by your wishes.  :)

1. No

2. No

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: niobe on January 06, 2006, 09:27:31 AM
1. Yes
2. Yes
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: leushino on January 06, 2006, 10:58:00 AM
- No

- No   :-/
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: BaronessSophie on January 06, 2006, 11:46:52 AM
No

No

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on January 06, 2006, 04:42:34 PM
Tedders says yes...yes....but then he drinks a bit.... ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 10, 2006, 10:53:30 AM
Quote
Five months after finding and posting this Report I have found another version of the same report (same date, large chunks of the text identical if you allow for differences in translation) but the "new" copy has significant differences in that it includes testimonies from witnesses that state that the family were moved either to Perm by rail or to Verkhotouria by troika and automobile.  This report, which is in PRO/30/26/144 appears to be one of several collected by Basil Thomson, Director of Intelligence at the Home Office in 1920.  Why there should be radical differences between the two I don't know.

Given time I will try and copy the "missing sections" but it is unlikely to be complete for a week or two due to other pressures.

Phil T


AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: MichaelB on January 11, 2006, 04:49:19 PM
1. 95% no

2. no
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 17, 2006, 04:39:10 PM

Quote

...[in part]...

On the 22nd of August a detective of the Secret Police returned from a special mission in the rear of the Bolsheviks and reported to the Chief of the Secret Police that he had learned from Arteny Makarov the watchman of the village of Elovka, that before the withdrawal of the Bolsheviks from Ekaterinberg he had seen how three closed automobiles and two troikas had passed in the night and had followed them to the post station and learnt that the horses had not been changed and that the Emperor and his family had been taken in an automobile in the direction of Verkhotouria.  In Irbit a small broker named Lipatenkov told the same agent thahe knew that the ex-Emperor had been taken to Verkhotouria.  In the Irbit Works Dmitri Kapoustin, a soldier of the Red Army, said that he knew that it was intended to take the Imperial family somewhere before the arrival of the Czech-Slovaks in Ekaterinberg, and when he was on duty at the station a train was formed for them.

More follows

Phil T

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 19, 2006, 10:34:50 AM
All of this is very interesting, thought provoking information but none of it really seems to answer the question of why the family would have been moved to Perm.  

To me, it just doesn't make sense.  Kill the tsar, tsarevich, possibly one of the daughters (from what I've read here people only saw three of the four daughters) and an entire retinue of people while keeping the tsarina and three daughters alive only to move them to Perm and kill them there.  Why would they have divided up the killings like this?  By that time the Tsarina and the daughter had absolutely to political importance and were just in the way of the Bolshevik plans for a New Russia free of monarchial influence.  So why then waste the time, the manpower and take an extreme security risk and move the women?  And then take even more time and effort to make sure that the bodies are buried together in the Meadow?  The Bolsheviks have always seemed, to me, more "kill now and plan later" types of people and I don't think they would have taken the time and the effort to seperate the family, especially after wasting so much time keeping them in captivity.  

It would have been a logistical nightmare and utterly pointless. 
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 19, 2006, 11:52:08 AM
Logical and and calm thinking executioners may not have been part of the events which occured that night of 16/17 July.

After reading some of the other Perm testimonies,  it appears that a few claimed to have seen Alexandra with all four of her daughters.  Another group tell us there were just three daughters and  that Anastasia had escaped and the woods were crawling with Red soldiers looking for her....   Anastasia and Alexis were seen getting in a carriage in the woods...  Trains were stopped and searched....

There was another event where a young woman was brought to the CHEKA but it appears she was not Anatasia, was beaten and who know what happen to her.

Investigators followed various leads to various villages.....

Several want-to-be Alexis were found and were discovered not to be the young Romanov....

Why would they NOT have killed them all that night?  There are possible reasons:
1) some of the guards were said to have refused to kill the women
2) there was a gun deal on the table with Germany for the trade of Alexandra and her daughters
3) there might have been a failed escape, they were recaptured and taken to Perm to wait for orders as to what to do with them
4) other reasons not known to us

Why would they kill them somewhere else and then rebury them?

Since Yurovsky's early testimony states that this is what they did, then after the Whites left Ekaterinburg,  this is what was done, perhaps to cover up their secret bungle of the original execution.    Maybe a few years later,  Stalin came along later and ordered the graves to be checked and to make sure all were buried where they said they were.... found the were not and having Yurovsky testimony, buried them as reported....  Maybe the existence of AA poping up in Germany made Stalin aware of things and...  Well, who knows.  All I can do is speculate.

According to experts,  the bones missing from the mass grave is usually the bones missing when bodies are lefted out of a grave and reburied elsewhere....  It was the Russians who made a point of ackowledging too many bones were missing....

The other problem was,  two bodies were missing....

I really don't know what happen that night, so,  I think it is important that we look at everything, including the testimonies regarding the Perm events.

Now,  discovering information which was eliminated from other reports that one of the doors at the Ipatiev House was pulled off the hinges and was pierced with bayonets,  adds to the events of that night, which may not have gone quite as easily as Yurovsky tells us in his testimonies.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 19, 2006, 12:15:47 PM
Quote

...[in part]...

...
Here is the next part of the report:

Later on, during the period from August 2nd to 8th the Examining Magistrate made an inspection of the house of Ipatieff at Ekaterinburg, where the Emperor Nicholas and his family had been placed under a strict watch.

Among other things this inspection showed that the entrance door to one of the rooms had been torn off from the hinges by some instrument.  The door itself, splintered by bayonets, was found at the entrance to the house .

......

Phil T


 


This is the door to which I made reference in above post.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 19, 2006, 01:29:07 PM
Of course, aside from the "testimonies" about the Perm sightings, there is no evidence that they were in fact there. As opposed to a mass grave just outside of Ekaterinburg, which contained the right number of bodies that Yurovsky had said would be there. As opposed to the conflicting testimonies that trains were being searched for Anastasia and Alexei, who were on the run. As opposed to Anastasia being dragged across Russia in the back of a cart by people who left no independent evidence of their existence behind. As opposed to the Tsar and his family being hidden in convents throughout the Urals (there is testimony to this as well). As opposed to . . .The Perm Story (which is really a series of occasionally mutally contradictory testimonies).

The Perm Story is just that. A story. And a story which has been discredited. You are aware that Summers and Mangold, who were the first to really bring this to anyone's attention, do not accept it in the face of the bodies?



Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 20, 2006, 01:23:25 PM
Quote
Of course, aside from the "testimonies" about the Perm sightings, there is no evidence that they were in fact there. As opposed to a mass grave just outside of Ekaterinburg, which contained the right number of bodies that Yurovsky had said would be there. As opposed to the conflicting testimonies that trains were being searched for Anastasia and Alexei, who were on the run. As opposed to Anastasia being dragged across Russia in the back of a cart by people who left no independent evidence of their existence behind. As opposed to the Tsar and his family being hidden in convents throughout the Urals (there is testimony to this as well). As opposed to . . .The Perm Story (which is really a series of occasionally mutally contradictory testimonies).

The Perm Story is just that. A story. And a story which has been discredited. You are aware that Summers and Mangold, who were the first to really bring this to anyone's attention, do not accept it in the face of the bodies?



You and others have drawn your conclusions which appears to me as believeing Yurovsky's and other guard's testimonies have told us what occured.  Therefore,  you believe the Perm stories are just tall tales.  I can understand and accept your opinion.

I can also understand the weight of the evidence of the nine bodies found in the mass grave as proof enough and so,  I can continue to  understand,  why you and others think all of this is solved and should be placed on the "Case Closed" section on the Russian Imperial Family.

The fact is:  No one ever cross exaimed Yurovsky or Ermakov or anyone else in a court of law.  A good lawyer may have asked questions which may have shown that these men were not completely honest about what happen that night.  I believe it's true the  Moscow Soviets sumoned Yurovsky to their little group who asked him question. One has to realize they were all on the same side and I'm not sure we can depend on using it as evidence to prove Yurovsky was telling everyone the truth here in the USA courts.

If Yurovsky was so completly honest,  why didn't he tell us where the two missing bodies were buried?  Well,  I guess he did mention the two bodies were near the mass grave.... Trouble is,  the two bodies have not been found near the mass grave,  or anywhere else in Pig's Meadow or near this area, and, yes, people are looking.     Yurovsky did tell us that Alexei and Demidova were the ones buried...  Demindov?  Not one of the daughters of Nicholas II?  And, let us not forget that he admited that he had thought they had buried Empress Aelxandra... but knew they had been in error and had buried Demindova instead. How and when did he discover this error?  Was the error discovered when they were placing the bodies into the mass grave?  But,  how does one answer the question as to how these men could have mistaken an older woman's body for that of a someone under the age of 22.....  To be acurate, it has been proven to us the bodies were not bloated and unreconizeable.  The faces and skull had not, yet,  been struck by the butt of the rifles...  This did not occur until just before the bodies were placed in the mass grave.

Remember this, also,  it does appear that some of the bodies in the mass grave may have originally been buried elsewhere due to the lack of bones which should have been found in the mass grave but they were not.  This distrubed the Russians so much that they took a bulll dozer and dug up the entire area and then sifted this soil looking for more bones.... Even after this,  they didn't have enough bones.

The two missing bodies are missing.   Either they were buried elsewhere and no one left alive could remember where they were buried so they could be dug up and placed near the mass grave or they escaped or were taken else where by rescuers or the Reds.

If these two escaped,  where did they go?

If these two escaped,  did anyone help them?  The Germans?  The French? A local resident of Ekaterinburg?  A farmer?

Were some of the testimonies about seeing Red soldiers searching woods and trains true.  Apparently,  they are.

What about the Perm stories,  they would then come into play in the case of the missing two children of Nicholas II.

As for Mangold and Summer's book THE FILE ON THE TSAR,  they were the first to present to the public  that there were testimonies about Perm, escape, ect. etc.  They did not fabricate their information.  It was there to find.  And, evidently,  there may be more testimonies to find.

Providing the public with information does not discredit Summers and Mangold.

One of our posters use to work for Summers and Mangold and she told us that the two men were quite honest in what they found.

They didn't believe in 1976 when they published the book that AA was GD Anastasia.

If all eleven died in the basement,  it still doesn't mean we can't be interested in the Perm Stories.

This thread is about "The Perm Story"  and I am enjoying the information provided by many of those here on the forum.

AGRBear



Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 20, 2006, 01:59:12 PM
It is not simply a matter of choosing to believe Yurovsky's testimony, or any of the other shooters. It certainly isn't a matter of accepting everything they said wholesale. Recent memory studies have demonstrated that people unconsciously fabricate memories all of the time, for example, about important events in their lives. There was a study done that asked ten or so college students to write down their recollections of an event on the day it happened. Ten years later they were asked to describe the event again, and then their answers were compared to the descriptions collected on the actual day. There were significant discrepancies, and the students, ten years older, were amazed by it, because they had accepted their altered memories as true. A book dealing with these studies has just been published by one of the California university presses, and I am trying to hunt it down. It sounds interesting.

Back to Yurovsky's testimony. There is empirical, forensic evidence that supports the accounts of the Ipatiev murders. The correct number of bodies was in the grave. The grave was where he had said it was. There is nothing as credible to support most of the other theories, testimonies etc. Helen_A has posted a very interesting article today on the DNA thread, btw, about the skeletal remains. It is hard to read it, because it is a scan, but rewarding if you do.

I am interested in the Perm stories as well. I am interested as to why a disinformation campaign was apparently mounted, not only about these stories, but using all of the others that I listed in my post. Was it orchestrated by the Soviets? Was it popular rumor, such as surrounded the death of Alexander I, the disappearance of the French Dauphin, or was it a combination of both?

History is not only, or even mainly, done in a courtroom. It is completely irrelevant as to whether Yurovsky was ever cross-examined using American legal methodology. People lie under oath, unfortunately.  And failing the chance to cross-examine him, we are left to the usual methods of history: research, supported by intelligent deduction. There is more evidence on Yurovsky's side than there is upon the testimonies about surviving Romanovs. If you are going to impeach his evidence, then go for it. But demanding that he produce a completely coherent, completely accurate, dispassionate account of the night of July 16-17, 1918? Please. The account we have is the clearest indication as to why this was not possible. He fumbled the execution, turning it into a nightmarish, chaotic event. He fumbled the initial burials, and had to drag bodies across the landscape to the ultimate grave. Bodies were thrown into the pit willy-nilly, as is obvious from their dispostion. And you know they were "recognizable" because? And you know that faces weren't damaged by guards before the actual moment of burial because? If he "lied" about some things, as you assert, then why couldn't the faces have been bashed in the room?

The journey to the truth is indeed interesting. But at some point there is an arrival, no? Will it be the ultimate, complete truth? Nope. There is simply too much evidence that we will never have. A historian must then develop probable narratives using what hard evidence we do have.





Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on January 20, 2006, 05:06:59 PM

I am interested in the Perm stories as well. I am interested as to why a disinformation campaign was apparently mounted, not only about these stories, but using all of the others that I listed in my post. Was it orchestrated by the Soviets? Was it popular rumor, such as surrounded the death of Alexander I, the disappearance of the French Dauphin, or was it a combination of both? [/quote]

And remember the one about the 'princesses of German blood' in the treaty, so they'd want to fabricate rumors they were still alive. If they were found dead they'd then deny it. In the testimonies of the Bolshevik in charge of the pittings of Ella and the others, he admitted they came back to town and rang the bell, announcing the prisoners were taken away by unknown  persons. This was  a deliberate lie to decieve people into believing they were still alive. So it's not out of the question, or even a stretch, the same may have been done when the Perm stories were invented.



Quote
The journey to the truth is indeed interesting. But at some point there is an arrival, no? Will it be the ultimate, complete truth? Nope. There is simply too much evidence that we will never have. A historian must then develop probable narratives using what hard evidence we do have.


That is such a perfect and eloquent way to sum it up! Exactly right! At some point, we have to stop chasng our tails and figure out what most likely happened, and disregard some of the more ridiculous theories.

I found this smilie today, it reminded me of the AA discussions:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/deadhorse.gif)

That's a dead horse being beaten. :P


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 20, 2006, 05:34:46 PM
I guess I'm looking at the Perm story from an all to military (logistical) stand point.  It just doesn't make sense to me.  I know Bolshevik reason and action could be scattershot, but not to the extent the Perm story requires.  Too much work for such lazy people.  Too much effort.  And, frankly, too much forethought and coordination.

Also, I do accept that the Pig's Meadow grave was dug up multiple times as Yurovsky states (and many times in following decades), I just find it hard to believe they would have dug it up an additional time to bury the rest of the family.  

And as for the women escaping, even Anastasia on her own, that's just laughable.  She was plucky, but just not plucky enough.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 20, 2006, 05:58:32 PM
I am glad to see some of you are interested in the Perm stories.

It doesn't matter to me your reasons.

All of you have good questions.

Gotta run.



AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 20, 2006, 06:14:38 PM
They are fascinating from a cultural perspective.  It would be great if we could find out more about the people who told these stories, something that may give us a hint why they would tell them.  What they could have gotten out of it.  

Also, I wonder if there's ever going to be one document discovered in Russian archives that explains all of this whether it be that the Perm stories are correct or that the family could not have been in Perm because they were all killed in the Basement.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 21, 2006, 11:16:27 AM
The Bolshevik's claim they planted some of these stories to cover up the fact that they had already executed Alexandra, the four daughters and Alexei.

Once people read the this statement,  they go, "OOOOOoooooo,  so that is where all these stories come from."  To most people,  this makes perfect sense and then they push aside the stories.  Why not?  Afterall,  weren't nine of the eleven remains found in the mass grave.

Let me use an old phrase of mine.  Try thinking out of this kind of box you have limited yourself.  I promise,  it will not hurt to climb out of the box just here on this thread for just a little while.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/BoxSm.jpg)

So,  while you are outside your comfy box,  ask yourself a few quesions.  

This one would be a good start: Could it just be reverse?  Could the Bolsheivk's planted stories in order to cover up the true stories?

Quick back into your comfy box.

To those back in the box,  I'll ask: If not, why not?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 21, 2006, 02:24:31 PM
Aw, nothing like being patronized to brighten up my day!

Honestly, Bear, I do try to think outside of the box.  I've read this thread, compared it to what I have previously read and I still come to the conclusion that the Perm story is illogical.  Now, I'm not saying that it's not true.  But according to my schema it does not make sense.  The pieces of the puzzle, as they stand, do not fit together.  And frankly, until some new piece of information comes to light I don't think they ever will in my mind.    
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: ConstanceMarie on January 21, 2006, 05:10:26 PM
It's not fair to say that everybody who doesn't think anybody escaped is stuck in a box. We have all seen all the stories, but there isn't enough to make us believe them. Until the last bodies get found we might always wonder what happened to them. If there is a story out there that explains it we haven't found it. It's not the Perm or Anna Anderson stories, those are false.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 21, 2006, 06:20:12 PM
Quote
The Bolshevik's claim they planted some of these stories to cover up the fact that they had already executed Alexandra, the four daughters and Alexei.

Once people read the this statement,  they go, "OOOOOoooooo,  so that is where all these stories come from."  To most people,  this makes perfect sense and then they push aside the stories.  Why not?  Afterall,  weren't nine of the eleven remains found in the mass grave.

Let me use an old phrase of mine.  Try thinking out of this kind of box you have limited yourself.  I promise,  it will not hurt to climb out of the box just here on this thread for just a little while.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/BoxSm.jpg)

So,  while you are outside your comfy box,  ask yourself a few quesions.  

This one would be a good start: Could it just be reverse?  Could the Bolsheivk's planted stories in order to cover up the true stories?

Quick back into your comfy box.

To those back in the box,  I'll ask: If not, why not?

AGRBear



Okay, Bear, I'll make a deal with you. I'll try to think outside the box and you try to think like a historian! And remember, get far enough outside that box and you have no defence against space alien theories! Space Aliens! In Perm!

And "OOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo"? I make a lot of noises when I read about the Perm stories, dear Bear, but that one hasn't happened yet.  ;D
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 21, 2006, 06:52:23 PM
I just went, did the dishes, and thought about your question, Bear. It seems to me that a massive disinformation campaign mounted by the Soviet Government would have had an objective, and presumably it would have been to convince investigators that the family did not perish in the way that Yurovsky and other early witnesses said they did.

That being the case, why spread mutually contradictory stories? Alexandra and the girls went to Perm, Alexandra and three of the girls went to Perm, only Nicholas was shot, Nicholas and Alexei were shot, Anastasia escaped but was recaptured, Anastasia and Alexei were on the run, and so forth. What does this accomplish? Especially, what does this accomplish when you, the Soviet Government,  are going to allow Yurovsky and Ermakov to lecture young Communists about the glorious night he shot the Tsar and his family?

The inconsistencies among the survival stories bothers me, since it seems far greater than the inconsistencies among the guards who gave evidence shortly after the murders. The more I think about it, the more I think that most of them can be ascribed to rumor. Or if they were spread by Bolsheviks as a deliberate misinformation campaign, it was to disguise in short-term the murders to spread confusion among the Whites.

I come back to the same question with your theories as I often do, I'm afraid. Anything can be postulated, butwhat can be placed against the forensic evidence that carries equal weight?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on January 21, 2006, 06:57:23 PM
I'm also interested in these stories, but I don't know which could be the better (and serious) sources to read about it. One is Summers and Mangold... Did you know another GOOD book speaking about the Perm Stories?

I must said that I don't believe in these stories, but I also must said that I don't know much about them, and we can't affirm that this is true or fake until we know all the information available about an issue.

However, since I believe that the bones found in Ekaterinburg are those of the Imperial Family, I suppose that the Perm Stories are only Red Herrings.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 22, 2006, 11:25:30 AM
I suppose,  the reason I am so interested on these Perm stories is because of the forensic evidence on the bones found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.  Or, maybe,  I should have said it's because of the bones not found in the mass grave.

According to the scientists,  there is no reason why so many bones should be missing and they have taken in all the evidence like the acid, years gone by, etc. etc. etc. into their conclusions.

The Russians became so distrubed by the lack of bones found,  they took a bull dozer,  dug up the ground which they pain stakingly was searched by using sieves to find all the fragments they could find.  They did find more fragments but the number of bones still fell extremely short of what should have been found.

Why?

Speculation by Bear: Maybe that this was not where all nine were originally buried.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/deadhorse.gif) Note: Annie's logo of a smilely face with a stick hitting a dead horse

After we bury poor old Annie's dead horse, and some 80 some years past,  people in the future should find a certain number of bones in the horse's grave.

If there is not,  then why not?

Good investigators will have to ask questions and look around for evidence as to why there aren't enough bones of the dead horse found in the grave.

Am I right?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 22, 2006, 11:42:17 AM
Quote
Date 11 July 1991: The layers of the grave as the bones were being dug up and removed were:
1.  Top-layer was 30 centimeters
2.  Railroad ties with "redeposited soil" - southern wall of mass grave then stones, branches, rotten wood
3. First bone uncovered was left pelvic bone of human remains at depth of 50 centimeters
4. Found the box with three skulls, sacrum, glass ampoules and viles [human hair and frgments of skin], two lumbar vertebrae, kneecaps, two jaw fragments with teeth, a lower jaw, two loose teeth two vertebra from neck, a right rib bone, two metcarpal bones, a right hipbone, portion of a left shoulder bone,  which had been placed in the pit in 1980 by Ryabov and Avdonin who had returned what they had found and taken out.   The box was taken up and opened.
--

12 July 1991
5.  Determined the dig in 1979 had damaged the integrity of the 1918 grave
6. Pit was widen and deepen
7. More bones found as well as fragments of vessels which is assumed were what had held the acid used in 1918.... rope...
8. The laying of a cable was noticed on the western corner of the pit
9.  See diagram of now the bones were found....

[unclear when the following was found]
10.  firing mechanism from a hand grenade
11.  bullets:   fourteen bullets from the following:
       a. one - 7.63 mm Mauser
       b. four were from:
            Browning
            Colt
            Smith & Wesson
       c. nine were from:
             Russian Nagant revolvers
--

13 July 1991- Exhumation ended

----

For more details see THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS b y Wilson and King  pps. 402-8
----
23 July to 25 July 1991

Bones were taken from the grave and to the Upper Verkh-Isetsk Police Departemnt's shooting range which is on the edge of Sverdlovsk

On ten sheets of plain brown wrapping paper the bones were sorted  [ the tenth were for the "we don't know" pile
----
Days which followed.

Bones were cleaned and washed and it is said that some bones crumbled into dust during this process....
-----
8 Aug 1991
Moscow authorized the formal investigation of the bones under the leadship of Dr. Bladislav Plaskin

All bones were numbered with white paint
-----

End of Sept.
Remains were moved to the Department of Criminal Pathology morgue in Sverdlovsk, third floor and behind a gated and locked door....  Bones were placed on metal autopsy tables and arranged...

Total of 500 bone fragments were left  [there are 206 individal bones in each human body]....

------
Second dig of mass grave

Oct 1991
12.  300 bone fragments were found
13.  13 loose teeth
14. 11 bullets
15. 150 small pieces of fatty tissue
16. fragments of rope and ceramic
----

AGRBear


That means there are over a thousand bones...  Thousand and three hundred and fifty four bones missing.

Doesn't that make you stop and wonder?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 22, 2006, 11:51:40 AM
No.
How many bones are missing from the Holocaust ? The Cambodian killing fields, Kosovo, Bosnia, Uganda ? Hiroshima ?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 22, 2006, 11:54:42 AM
Quote
No.
How many bones are missing from the Holocaust ? The Cambodian killing fields, Kosovo, Bosnia, Uganda ? Hiroshima ?


The WTC?

Different topic ... same red herring.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 22, 2006, 12:19:51 PM
Quote
No.
How many bones are missing from the Holocaust ? The Cambodian killing fields, Kosovo, Bosnia, Uganda ? Hiroshima ?


What do you mean Robert  ???
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 22, 2006, 12:43:20 PM
Quote

What do you mean Robert  ???


I think that what he's getting at is that in cases of mass execution/burial there are usually records of who should have been shot, an idea of how many people are missing based on survivor stories, and yet for some reason there are always some skeletons and bones missing so the numbers fail to match up.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 22, 2006, 12:53:20 PM
I see :) Thank you Tsarina_Liz  :) :)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 22, 2006, 01:18:07 PM
Quote
No.
How many bones are missing from the Holocaust ? The Cambodian killing fields, Kosovo, Bosnia, Uganda ? Hiroshima ?


I am not sure why Robert or Helen wish to talk about Cambodia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Uganda or Hieroshima.  They can open a thread about their subject, whatever it is,  if they so wish.

I am referring to one mass grave.  And, there is evidence by the scientists involved that there are too many bones missing from the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

These missing bones disturbed them as it does me.  Why doesn't it bother Robert or Helen  and others?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 22, 2006, 01:29:45 PM
Since most of you believe Yurovsky's and the other exectioner's testimonies, then you know the count.  Nine bodies in the mass grave.  Two bodies were buried near the mass grave.  Eleven people.

Quote

I think that what he's getting at is that in cases of mass execution/burial there are usually records of who should have been shot, an idea of how many people are missing based on survivor stories, and yet for some reason there are always some skeletons and bones missing so the numbers fail to match up.  


There are 206 bones found in the human body.  There were nine people buried in the mass grave.  This would have made 1854 bones which should have been found if all were there to find.  Instead they found just 500 [some just fragments] bones.  This means there are 1354 bones/ fragments of certain bones still  missing.  Some of those were destroyed with acid and age.

This count does not include the two missing, Anastasia or Maria and Alexei, which would have been 412 bones in addition.

The Russian scientists and  I do not understand why so many bones are missing from the mass grave.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 22, 2006, 01:38:51 PM
You seem to provide at least a partial explanation for the missing bones in your post, though. The grave has been opened several times, excavated more than once. The earliest openings were certainly not conducted to investigative standards that would prevent contamination, i.e. things disappearing, etc.

Moreover, acid was poured over the bodies, they were abused physically before being dumped into the grave, and there is ample evidence to identify each of the victims save for Anastasia/Maria, and evidence there is conflicting, but not because of the number of bones.

If I infer correctly, you postulate that the women may have been sent to Perm, later shot either there or somewhere else, and their bodies returned to the gravesite, where some of them were able to be placed under the male bodies that had been tossed in earlier?

Golly, that's a long way around the barn.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 22, 2006, 01:48:41 PM
Quote

...[in part and note, the bold letters were established my Bear]....

You seem to provide at least a partial explanation for the missing bones in your post, though. The grave has been opened several times, excavated more than once. The earliest openings were certainly not conducted to investigative standards that would prevent contamination, i.e. things disappearing, etc.

Moreover, acid was poured over the bodies, they were abused physically before being dumped into the grave, and there is ample evidence to identify each of the victims save for Anastasia/Maria, and evidence there is conflicting, but not because of the number of bones.

...




The scientists involved are aware of the acid, the graves  being opened, etc.,  as I voiced earlier in one of my posts above.  With that said,  they still claim there are too many bones missing.

Since I'm not the expert,  I will have to depend on them and what they have taken into account, observed, pondered and concluded.

I, also, gave the page numbers of the FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson that will give you more details about the acid, cable and decay etc..

Thank you Louis Charles for providing this information which is important.

So,  with this additional information,  it still hasn't change the conclusion of the Russian scientists who believe there are too many bones missing from the mass grave.

AGRBear



Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 22, 2006, 02:03:12 PM
Quote

...[in part]...

If I infer correctly, you postulate that the women may have been sent to Perm, later shot either there or somewhere else, and their bodies returned to the gravesite, where some of them were able to be placed under the male bodies that had been tossed in earlier?

Golly, that's a long way around the barn.



It is not I who postulate that the women may have been sent to Perm, however,  I speculated that if they had been that this would have meant they were shot later.  Why?  Because all but two,  Anastasia or Marie and Alexei were found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

Yes,  this would have been a long way around the barn.

The Bolshviks were often known to take the long way around the barn.

Perhaps,  in this case,  they may have locked the door after the robbers had stolen the horses.  Recaptured the horses, later,  brought them back to the barn and pretended they had never been stolen.  Why?  To avoid the fact they had failed to lock the doors in the first place.

Evidence?

Bones are missing.

You don't agree.  You continue to believe all died in the basement.  Okay.

If nothing else, please, explain why there are so many missing bones if all eleven were buried in Pig's Meadow on the 17th of July 1918 by Yurovsky and the others.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 22, 2006, 02:28:22 PM
Um . . . I think I did. You just don't accept the explanation. See my post above.

You want a tidy, complete and utterly improbable scenario before you will accept the probable scenario. Good luck with that.





Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 22, 2006, 03:12:49 PM
I am not sure what you mean when you wrote  that I "want" a scenario.

I don't want a particular scenario.

I don't have an agenda nor do I need Perm testimony to prove something.

Yes,  I am interested in the testimonies about the possibility of Alexandra, the three daughters and Alexei being in or near Perm.

Back on the earlier pages of this thread,  I've posted some of the testimonies, in case some of you newbies are interested.

Yes, Louis Charles  did explain why he thought bones were missing, and,  I replied that the Russian scientists know all  he  listed and more.   They still think there are too many bones missing for this to have been the original buriel place of the nine whose remains were found in the mass grave.

It isn't my interuptation, it is the experts opinion.

AGRBear

PS  I went back to read my posts which present the various people who gave testimony on this thread.  Evidently they are not on this thread so I'll have to find a couple and post them here.  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on January 22, 2006, 03:41:35 PM
Thank you Robert, for citing the remembrance of these terrible holocausts. But why also, do most people forget the Armenian Holocaust? Millions were killed, butured. Still today, to substantiate that this holocaust of 1915 ever transpired, it is still being negated. Hard enough to find bodies, but even harder to find justice, let alone compensation in just settling,'facts'! Hitler stated, 'who will remember the Armenians'. Who indeed? Then Hitler commenced the holocaust of the Jews. Did it stop with the Jews, no. As Robert has offered below, holocausts continue to transpire. Man's inhumanity, and total lack of conscience. One wonders what some human hearts are really made of ?

Tatiana


Quote
No.
How many bones are missing from the Holocaust ? The Cambodian killing fields, Kosovo, Bosnia, Uganda ? Hiroshima ?

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 22, 2006, 04:04:39 PM
The point I was making is just this: mass death  and disturbed gravesites mean body parts [BONES] will go missing! Despite some bizarre obsession with accounting for every last toenail, it happens.
If it is so important to account for every last fragment of a human body to prove a point- have fun at the above mentioned sites. Keep one busy, to say the least.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 22, 2006, 04:08:31 PM
Quote
On p. 321 Summers and Mangold in their book File On The Tsar mentioned an eye witness Natalya Mutnykha, a nurse, who claimed she had seen ex-Empress Alexandra and four daughters, in Perm in the basement where Berezin's rooms were.  

And they said:  "This formal testimony, along with that of other witnesses, says categorically that all the Romanov women were held prisioner by the Bolshviks in Perm late in the summer of 1918 and on into the autumn."

Does anyone have any new evidence that this testimony is false?

AGRBear



Quote
On p. 328 Summers and Mangold in their book File On The Tsar go on to say: "Mutnykh's testimony is vastly strenghtened by the discovery that her brother, Vladimir Mutnykh, was indeed, as she claimed, secretary to the Ural Soviets."  And Vladimir was more than this, he was personal aide to Beloborodov, who was the chairman of the Ural Soviets and a man who had been a part of the events which occured in the Ipatiev House.

AGRBear



Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 22, 2006, 04:11:50 PM
Quote
I had to look up who Alexander Kirsta was and I had forgotten about him and how he was invovled in the investigation.

According to File On the Tsar p. 326 Summers and Mangold tell us that it was Kirsta, the Head of Military Control on 8 March 1919 and on 2 April 1919 takes the testimony of the nurse Mutnykh.   He backed this statement five others who were (1) Ivan Girschfeld, a German, (2) Sibiryev, local postal clerk, (3) Yegeniya Sokolova; (4) Glafyra Malysleva, who had a napkin from the royal family's "stuff",  (5) name unknown, listed as a patient from a local invalid hospital....

Mutnykh's story tells us, also,   she was not alone when she saw Alexandra and three of her daughters.  With her was Anna Kostina, the secretary to  Grigory Zinoviev.  [Note: she said three daughters, not four.]

This testimony,  let me note, again, wasn't until March and then again in April of 1919.  This was some seven and eight months after July 1918.  

Was side tracked on Mutnykh's story.

Back to Kirsta.

On page 323,  Summers and Mangold tell us that Kirsta was part of General Gaida investigation which was not part of Sokolov's.  Gaida was a member of the Ugolovny Rozysk  [CID = Criminal Investigation Division].....  Gaida didn't trust the Whites who quickly declared the Royal Family as being executed and were probably the source who were spreading the "rumors" about the daughters and Tsarina having been raped, etc. etc..   Gaida's collection did not include the White Army investigators collection.

If the Perm witnesses were part of some kind of conspiracy,  I wouldn't know.  Greg indicates this may have been the case.  But,  Gaida wasn't new at investigations.  And,  if you ask my opinion, until I'm given good reason to change my mind,  I think Gaida's data might  be more accurate than the Reds or the Whites about what happen to the Royal Family and the others.

Greg,  what do you have on Gaida and why is his data, in your opinion,  considered as being not as accurate as other investigators?

AGRBear





Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RealAnastasia on January 22, 2006, 09:42:27 PM
Quote
No.
How many bones are missing from the Holocaust ? The Cambodian killing fields, Kosovo, Bosnia, Uganda ? Hiroshima ?


I think that our thread is not referring to this question.

The Imperial Family massacre is not an holocaust , where people was murdered and tortured by thousands and thousands.

At the Ipatiev house, you had eleven corpses and Reds did the better they could to "hide" them. They buried them in a hurry in order to not to be discovered by the whites. These dead bodies must have been complete, or almost complete. The Bolsheviks claimed that they had burned them "to ashes" but forensic teams discovered that this was another of their continual lies (At least, if you believes, like me, that the remains found in the Pig's Meadow were those of the Romanovs and their retainers).

Another important difference between this issue and the Holocausts ones , is that, when the Reds killed the entire family, they didn't have the political power yet. Hitler HAD the power, Pol-Pot HAD the power and the Turkish who killed the Armenians HAD the power. The had all the time in this world to kill thousands of people and make them dissapear their corpses quite easily. They had other technology too. The Bolsheviks couldn't distroy the Imperial Family corpses by fire in so little time; Hitler had these awful stoves that makes a body became ashes in some hours.

Some month ago, I spoke to a crematorium employé, who said me that you put one hour or two to make a corpse become ashes, but that even like this, you ALWAYS has little bones, cartilages and, of course, teeth. Once a corpse is burned, you MUST absolutely put it into a machine that triturates all this to powder. He also explained me that this is only possible in closed stoves, especials to crematoriums. You CAN'T do it in an open fire. He remebered the ritual cremations in India, where a single corpse could stand for an entire day until it become totally cremated..and of course it's bones remains always complete. They turned to ashes after days and days of fire action. You must accept that you can't end with two corpses so easily as Yurovsky affirmed. Eve using great quantities of acid, this would not have been possible.

We are not surprised for the lack of two three or ten pieces of bones...We are surprised by the lack of two whole corpses at Pig's Meadows.

RealAnastasia.  

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 22, 2006, 09:55:09 PM
Quote
On p. 328 Summers and Mangold in their book File On The Tsar go on to say: "Mutnykh's testimony is vastly strenghtened by the discovery that her brother, Vladimir Mutnykh, was indeed, as she claimed, secretary to the Ural Soviets."  And Vladimir was more than this, he was personal aide to Beloborodov, who was the chairman of the Ural Soviets and a man who had been a part of the events which occured in the Ipatiev House.
 
AGRBear


The phrase "vastly strengthened" was awarded to the testimony by Summers and Mangold, because the woman had ties to the Bolsheviks, specifically a Bolshevik who was part of the events in the Ipatiev House?

Does this mean that Yurovsky's testimony was "vastly strengthened" by the discovery of the actual, you know, bodies in the actual, you know, grave? I mean, he was a Bolshevik, and he was part of the events at the Ipatiev House. Firsthand, unlike Beloborodov's secretary's sister.

I don't say that Mangold and Summers are laughable. I think they did a credible job of presenting the information that was available in 1976, and their speculations did not seem immoderate to me. In 1976. Before the discovery of the bodies. In a grave. Outside Ekaterinburg. Not Perm.

Incidentally, I followed the threads about the "Perm Story" and discovered that there are some serious quibbles with the Utkin testimony about Anastasia's "survival" after July 1918.

And as I assume you are aware, there has been no serious disputation of the Ipatiev narrative from the Russian scientists. And for the sake of argument: alright, the bodies were first buried somewhere else. By Yurovsky. And later they were dug up and reburied, causing bones to go missing. Not by Yurovsky, who sticks to his original story until his death in 1938 because he doesn't know about the second burial (which luckily mimics the physical description of the first burial, but what the hey.) So the "second" grave is discovered, and some bones are missing. My point is that the existence of the mythical second grave does not invalidate any part of the Yurovsky narrative. Is there anything about the skeletons and their wounds that contradicts the versions of the shooting offered by Yurvsky and other shooters? The skulls of the girls indicate that they were shot from above, once they had collapsed to the floor (unless there was a twelve-foot shooter). Botkin was shot in such a way that he toppled to the floor, and his remains indicate that yes, this is what happened to him. The wounds are disparate and of varying degrees, exactly what might expect from the description of the cellar that night. Does any of this say "Perm"?

Regards,

Simon





Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 23, 2006, 11:00:51 AM
Quote

...[in part]....

...And for the sake of argument: alright, the bodies were first buried somewhere else. By Yurovsky. And later they were dug up and reburied, causing bones to go missing. Not by Yurovsky, who sticks to his original story until his death in 1938 because he doesn't know about the second burial (which luckily mimics the physical description of the first burial, but what the hey.) So the "second" grave is discovered, and some bones are missing. My point is that the existence of the mythical second grave does not invalidate any part of the Yurovsky narrative. Is there anything about the skeletons and their wounds that contradicts the versions of the shooting offered by Yurvsky and other shooters? The skulls of the girls indicate that they were shot from above, once they had collapsed to the floor (unless there was a twelve-foot shooter). Botkin was shot in such a way that he toppled to the floor, and his remains indicate that yes, this is what happened to him. The wounds are disparate and of varying degrees, exactly what might expect from the description of the cellar that night. Does any of this say "Perm"?

Regards,

Simon



Before we go into other questions caused by various posts,  let me make ask the following:

Are you in agreement that it is possible that the one or all nine bodies found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow may not have been buried there on the 17th of July?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 23, 2006, 01:34:31 PM
Solely for the sake of argument. If you are asking me if I believe it, then no. But if you want to propose a counter-narrative, have at it.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 23, 2006, 02:09:19 PM
Louis Charles>>
Quote
My point is that the existence of the mythical second grave does not invalidate any part of the Yurovsky narrative.  


Why do you placed  my SPECULATION into   a "mythical second grave" coffin shaped box???

Louis Charles>>
Quote
There is empirical, forensic evidence that supports the accounts of the Ipatiev murders. The correct number of bodies was in the grave. The grave was where he had said it was. There is nothing as credible to support most of the other theories, testimonies etc.


The forensic evidence  tells the experts, who  are the ones who were invovled in the removal of the bones from the mass grave,  there are too many bones missing from the mass grave in Pig's Meadow, therefore, this grave may not have been where all nine were buried on the 17th of July.  These same experts know about the acid, the decay, the possibility of looters and the cable and probably even more than what we know.

Louis Charles>>
Quote
If I infer correctly, you postulate that the women may have been sent to Perm, later shot either there or somewhere else, and their bodies returned to the gravesite, where some of them were able to be placed under the male bodies that had been tossed in earlier?
 
Golly, that's a long way around the barn.


Just because you cannot understand why something occured, such as people taking the long way around the barn,  doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

It is possible, with or without Louis Charles agreement,  that the remains were buried elsewhere and then dug and and placed in the mass grave a year or two later.

AGRBear



Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 23, 2006, 02:33:33 PM
Quote
Louis Charles>>

Why do you placed  my SPECULATION into   a "mythical second grave" coffin shaped box???

And, why are you telling  us that the experts do not understand the various reasons bones were  absent, when they are the ones who were invovled in the removal of the bones from the mass grave?

Just because you cannot understand why something occured, such as people taking the long way around the barn,  doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

It is possible, with or without Louis Charles agreement,  that the remains were buried elsewhere and then dug and and placed in the mass grave a year or two later.

AGRBear





Your "speculation" is unproven. In my post I accepted the existence of the second grave for the sake of argument. Until such time as you can demonstrate that it existed, it is a myth. A myth is a story created to explain a truth in the absence of other methods.  The survivors thread itself deals with the "myth" that there were one or more survivors, based upon the kinds of evidence --- unsupported testimonies and the like --- that we are dealing with on this thread. Once it has been demonstrated that someone DID survive, it will pass from myth to fact. If the word "myth" offends you, (1) I withdraw it, and invite you to substitute the phrase "speculative second grave" in the original post and (2) I also invite you to open a dictionary before you fly off the handle again. At no point, by the way, did I use the words 'coffin-shaped box', and frankly I don't understand your use of them in the response.

The Russian experts identify one of the skeletons as belonging to Anastasia. The Americans identified the same skeleton as that of Maria. One of the teams is correct (or both may be wrong, but they cannot both be correct). Given that they could be wrong in this matter, the Russian reputation for unassailable expertise is questionable. As is the American.  The site was poorly handled, available to non-professionals for excavation, and there was strong criticism levelled at the lack of control during the professional excavation. Note how I refrain from pointing out that you yourself have ignored expert after expert who disagrees with your speculations. Robert Massie would qualify as an expert upon the Romanovs, and he finds the Perm stories preposterous.

It is possible that the Russians made a mistake. And it is possible that I am wrong. Okay? Snippy remarks about how it is "possible to believe something even if Louis_Charles doesn't" are fatuous. How on earth can someone be prevented from believing what they want to on this board?

If people "believe" me, it is because I have posted logical arguments that are based upon evidence. I suggest you do the same. Or don't, it really doesn't matter to me.  I occasionally find your posts interesting enough in the speculations they raise to ask you a question. In the post that provoked this, I accepted the idea that the bodies might have been immured in another grave prior to their ultimate disposition. I asked to hear your speculations in the form of a narrative as to what might have happened. Instead of answering, you go off on a diatribe.

And my question stands. If the remains were dug up and placed in the final grave a year or two later, what does this have to do with Yurovsky's testimony? Do you speculate that he was in charge of the reburial detail?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 23, 2006, 02:50:52 PM
Oooops,  I guess my remarks sounded "snippy" to you but they were not meant to be.

Sorry. 

No, you didn't mention a coffin shaped box.  I did.

Why wouldn't I accept your opinion?  After your opinion as given,  I am just trying to discover why you came to that opinion, or, atleast,  that was my intent. 

And, yes  the use of the word "speculation"  to me,  sounds better than "myth".

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 23, 2006, 02:54:53 PM
Quote
...[in part]...

And my question stands. If the remains were dug up and placed in the final grave a year or two later, what does this have to do with Yurovsky's testimony? Do you speculate that he was in charge of the reburial detail?


HMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmm, do you think it possibe that Yurovsky could have been in charge of the reburial?

AGRBear




Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 23, 2006, 03:19:49 PM
No, for a short answer.

Since you haven't answered my question, I will construct an alternative narrative.

On the night of July 16, the servants, the Tsar and Alexei were shot in the basement. The bodies were taken to a grave and buried, somewhere outside of Ekaterinburg. Yurovsky supervised the burial detail. Alexei's body was separated from the others and possibly burned, possibly buried elsewhere.

The women were taken to Perm and held for an indeterminate amount of time. Anastasia broke free, but was recaptured. The women are executed, either in Perm or they are taken back to Ekaterinburg (unlikely as long as it was in the hands of the Whites, of course). Anastasia was either executed apart from everyone else and buried separately, or she escaped again and vanished (since the DNA has demonstrated that she could not have been Anna Andersen).

They too are buried, but not in the same grave as the Tsar and the servants. At a certain point, late enough in the day that the bodies have become disarticulated, the skeletal remains are gathered from each grave and taken to the Pig's Meadow site, where they are re-buried in a gravesite that matches the description of the earlier grave. Yurovsky supervises this as well. I have no idea where Yurovsky was several years after the shootings, so perhaps he was in Ekaterinburg. He has a detail to assist him in this, of course, and there would have to be someone present who knew where the bodies of the Empress and three Grand Duchesses were. Some of the women were clearly thrown into the grave before, say, Botkin, if you judge by their placement. This is why I postulate the existence of a previous grave for each group, and their simultaneous transfer into the grave that was ultimately excavated. It is during the transfer of the bodies from the other two graves that bones are lost. Oddly, many of the lost bones were from the victims' feet.

All of the soldiers involved in these actions --- the original shootings, the female shootings, the escape/shooting of Anastasia, the three graves, the guard detail of the Ipatiev House --- all of them maintain their silence. Yurovsky, of course, has the most to cover up, since he was involved in all of these actions (even with the Perm story, he would had to have known).

I would be interested in critiques of the logical structure of this analysis as a statement of what happened, as in, if this does not make sense, could someone explain why? I have tried to account for missing bones, and the two missing bodies. I assume that the body in the grave is Maria. I have tried to construct a narrative with an open mind.

By the same token, if this narrative does make sense, could someone explain why?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: ConstanceMarie on January 23, 2006, 06:15:27 PM
I don't think it does make sense. Why would they bother to take the bodies back to the same hole? Wouldn't it have been better for them to hide them by separating them? It would also be hard to find the same spot again, remember the truck got stuck so it was not an easy place to get to. With the Whites approaching it wasn't realistic that they'd return to the scene of the crime. I think the fact that they were all found together means they were all shot together.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: etonexile on January 23, 2006, 06:31:57 PM
Quote
I don't think it does make sense. Why would they bother to take the bodies back to the same hole? Wouldn't it have been better for them to hide them by separating them? It would also be hard to find the same spot again, remember the truck got stuck so it was not an easy place to get to. With the Whites approaching it wasn't realistic that they'd return to the scene of the crime. I think the fact that they were all found together means they were all shot together.


Some folk just insist on being logical.....tsk.... ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 24, 2006, 11:19:35 AM
Quote
Since most of you believe Yurovsky's and the other exectioner's testimonies, then you know the count.  Nine bodies in the mass grave.  Two bodies were buried near the mass grave.  Eleven people.


There are 206 bones found in the human body.  There were nine people buried in the mass grave.  This would have made 1854 bones which should have been found if all were there to find.  Instead they found just 500 [some just fragments] bones.  This means there are 1354 bones/ fragments of certain bones still  missing.  Some of those were destroyed with acid and age.

This count does not include the two missing, Anastasia or Maria and Alexei, which would have been 412 bones in addition.

The Russian scientists and  I do not understand why so many bones are missing from the mass grave.

AGRBear



No one questioned these facts, Bear.  We were trying to explain what the problems are with mass graves and accountability.  

And while this execution was not even in the same stratosphere as the Holocaust et al. it is similiar in that when you have more than two or three bodies and a critical need to dispose of them mistakes are practically inevitable.  Especially when there are so many victims in similiar age groups with similar features.  Corpses get places in the wrong category, things fall or get chopped off when they shouldn't have, the wrong people end up on a bonfire and doused in acid.  It's like in your average every day murder, it's hard enough to get away with one but you start knocking off multiple people or a household and you might as well march your behind right down to the police station because of all the mistakes you made and all the clues you left behind.  

And since Louis_Charles brought up the fact about many of the missing bones being from the victims' feet, does any know of any reliable account in which the victims were dismembered (for ease of burning, burial, retribution, etc.)?  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Lemur on January 24, 2006, 12:07:51 PM
Quote


And since Louis_Charles brought up the fact about many of the missing bones being from the victims' feet, does any know of any reliable account in which the victims were dismembered (for ease of burning, burial, retribution, etc.)?  


The book Nicholas and Alexandra by Robert Massie mentions this happening. Other accounts apparently discount it but we don't really know since so much time had passed. I feel it likely the toe and foot bones rotted away in the soil over time. It was a lot of time.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 24, 2006, 12:23:04 PM
According to one of AGR's own posts "...it is said that some bones crumbled into dust during this process...", meaning during the excavation and examination of the bones. This could have been true for many of the bones in the grave prior to excavation - they may have just disintegrated into the surrounding soil. Remember that sulfuric acid was poured into the grave by the bucket - that could certainly do it!  
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 24, 2006, 02:00:02 PM
Blasphemers!  Logic has no place on this board!  

;D

I think that there are logical explanations as to the fate of bones.  Disintegration, grave robbing, poor excevation practices all seem likely reasons why many bones are missing and not some wild story about multiple graves and a desperate dash to Perm.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Lemur on January 24, 2006, 02:27:56 PM
On the street I grew up on, there had been an old plantation house at the end of the street and there was a family graveyard on the land. Sadly, this graveyard was dug up and the bodies moved so more houses could be built there. We kids stood around and watched. They said few of the skeletons were complete, after all those years most of the boxes had rotted through and the bones had become one with the ground. There were many missing bones, including one skull which was never found. :(
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 25, 2006, 11:35:48 AM
I am not sure I'm the right poster to answer all of these questions.  What we need to someone knowledgeable in forensic science who deals with graves like the one in Pig's Meadow.

Let me remind you,  I am not the one giving us information that there were too many bones missing from the mass grave.  It was the experts who were presents as the remains of the nine were being removed.

One of them drew the sketch which has been shown here on this forum.  It shows the position of the bones and it tells us the bones visible to the artist/scientist.

Let me go find my colorized version.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 25, 2006, 11:40:37 AM
Quote
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/ColorBonesWeb.jpg)

Diagram of the position of the skeletons in the mass grave.

You can see how one body was placed on top of another....

I colorzied the bones, however, I'm not sure if I put the correct colors on the right bones.  

If you see anything I need to change or add colors to the bones not yet colorized, please,  let me know.  

On the leg bone of #3 is something that looks like part of a skull.  Does that belong to #8??

1. Anna S. Demidova
2. Dr. Botkin
3. GD Olga
4.  Nicholas II
5. GD Marie/Anastasia
6. GD Tatiana
7. Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexsi Trupp

I promised I'd do this on one of these threads but forgotten which one so I placed it here.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 25, 2006, 11:43:54 AM
Quote
Starting on p. 403 Penny and Greg tell us about the postion of the bodies in the grave.
 
Penny had earlier written about this in one of her posts.  I can't find it and it may have been one of posts she omited.
 
Anyway,  let's start with the body that they think was the first one placed in the grave.
 
Using the colorized diagram above.
 
I. #4 Nicholas II was thought to have been placed first.  Depth was 107 to 119 centimeters below the surface
II.  #9 Trupp was 100 to 120 centimeters  below the surface
III. #8 Kharitonov was 99 to 113 centimeters below the surface
IV.  #2 Botkin was 90 to 100 centimeters below the surface
V., VI, & VII. #3, #5, & #6 the three GD Duchess  were the same depth of 92 to  100 centimeters below the surface.
VIII. Demidova was at 90 centimeters
IX.  Alexandra was 79 to 96 centimeters
 
 
 
AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 25, 2006, 11:54:40 AM
Quote
...[in part]....

As a point of information, one of the main reasons that bones "go missing" is often because bodies are moved or (as in neolithic burial practices) the bodies are exposed and then the bones collected & buried later.  This means that smaller bones such as fingers & toes tend to drop off at the original site & get overlooked in the move.  I know all about this as my wife is doing a course on prehistoric ritual practices & I hear about it regularly.

...

Phil Tomaselli

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 25, 2006, 11:58:37 AM
It is the experts who claim there were too many bones missing.  I am just he messenger.

Louis Charles asked some interesting questions in his scenario.
I will have to reply directly but I don't think I will have the time today.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 25, 2006, 12:01:39 PM
Neolithic burial practices aside, you have maintained that the Russian experts account for the missing bones by having the bodies moved into the Pig's Meadow Grave from another burial site --- assuming that they weren't left to disarticulate in the open air.

Did they offer any other possibility, such as animal removal, sulphuric acid, etc?

Do you see any problems with the speculative narrative I constructed?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 25, 2006, 07:48:54 PM
Quote
It is the experts who claim there were too many bones missing.  I am just he messenger.

Louis Charles asked some interesting questions in his scenario.
I will have to reply directly but I don't think I will have the time today.

AGRBear


I didn't really ask any questions in the scenario. I postulated a series of events that make logical sense, if you accept the fact that the Pig's Meadow grave is the second burial site for the remains.

Assuming that the relative depths indicate an order in which the bodies were placed, then any separated Romaovs --- i.e. the girls and their mother --- were added to the grave at the same time as people like Demidova, who presumably died earlier.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 26, 2006, 06:24:56 PM
Quote
Neolithic burial practices aside, you have maintained that the Russian experts account for the missing bones by having the bodies moved into the Pig's Meadow Grave from another burial site --- assuming that they weren't left to disarticulate in the open air.

Did they offer any other possibility, such as animal removal, sulphuric acid, etc?

Do you see any problems with the speculative narrative I constructed?


Yes, the experts took into accourt the variety of reasons the bones might be missing such as the sulphuric acid,  animals,  the digging of the cable, etc..

The speculative narrative is to what I was referring that I needed a little time to reread, ponder and then find a clump of time to answer.  I've just had  a few minutes here and there....

Gotta run.

Maybe tomorrow I can discuss your speculative narrative.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 27, 2006, 06:16:04 PM
Quote
No, for a short answer.

Since you haven't answered my question, I will construct an alternative narrative.

On the night of July 16, the servants, the Tsar and Alexei were shot in the basement. The bodies were taken to a grave and buried, somewhere outside of Ekaterinburg. Yurovsky supervised the burial detail. Alexei's body was separated from the others and possibly burned, possibly buried elsewhere.

The women were taken to Perm and held for an indeterminate amount of time. Anastasia broke free, but was recaptured. The women are executed, either in Perm or they are taken back to Ekaterinburg (unlikely as long as it was in the hands of the Whites, of course). Anastasia was either executed apart from everyone else and buried separately, or she escaped again and vanished (since the DNA has demonstrated that she could not have been Anna Andersen).

They too are buried, but not in the same grave as the Tsar and the servants. At a certain point, late enough in the day that the bodies have become disarticulated, the skeletal remains are gathered from each grave and taken to the Pig's Meadow site, where they are re-buried in a gravesite that matches the description of the earlier grave. Yurovsky supervises this as well. I have no idea where Yurovsky was several years after the shootings, so perhaps he was in Ekaterinburg. He has a detail to assist him in this, of course, and there would have to be someone present who knew where the bodies of the Empress and three Grand Duchesses were. Some of the women were clearly thrown into the grave before, say, Botkin, if you judge by their placement. This is why I postulate the existence of a previous grave for each group, and their simultaneous transfer into the grave that was ultimately excavated. It is during the transfer of the bodies from the other two graves that bones are lost. Oddly, many of the lost bones were from the victims' feet.

All of the soldiers involved in these actions --- the original shootings, the female shootings, the escape/shooting of Anastasia, the three graves, the guard detail of the Ipatiev House --- all of them maintain their silence. Yurovsky, of course, has the most to cover up, since he was involved in all of these actions (even with the Perm story, he would had to have known).

I would be interested in critiques of the logical structure of this analysis as a statement of what happened, as in, if this does not make sense, could someone explain why? I have tried to account for missing bones, and the two missing bodies. I assume that the body in the grave is Maria. I have tried to construct a narrative with an open mind.

By the same token, if this narrative does make sense, could someone explain why?


Let's take this one step at a time so Bear  doesn't get confused.

Louis Charles:
1.
>>
Quote
On the night of July 16, the servants, the Tsar and Alexei were shot in the basement.


Bear:  Yes this is possible.  I assume the ex-Tsar Nicholas II who was the most important political threat to the Reds would have been shot first.

Nicholas II seemed to be the first to have been placed in the mass grave.

I. #4 Nicholas II was thought to have been placed first.  Depth was 107 to 119 centimeters below the surface  
II.  #9 Trupp was 100 to 120 centimeters  below the surface  
III. #8 Kharitonov was 99 to 113 centimeters below the surface


It is possible that the three men were shot in the basement.

Trupp was buried on top of Nicholas II then Kharitonov was the third  one placed in the grave in Pig's Meadow.

AGRBear





Quote
The bodies were taken to a grave and buried, somewhere outside of Ekaterinburg. Yurovsky supervised the burial detail. Alexei's body was separated from the others and possibly burned, possibly buried elsewhere.<<


---
Order of placement list:
I. #4 Nicholas II was thought to have been placed first.  Depth was 107 to 119 centimeters below the surface  
II.  #9 Trupp was 100 to 120 centimeters  below the surface  
III. #8 Kharitonov was 99 to 113 centimeters below the surface  
IV.  #2 Botkin was 90 to 100 centimeters below the surface  
V., VI, & VII. #3, #5, & #6 the three GD Duchess  were the same depth of 92 to  100 centimeters below the surface.  
VIII. Demidova was at 90 centimeters  
IX.  Alexandra was 79 to 96 centimeters  


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 27, 2006, 06:44:46 PM
Louis Charles:

2.
..
Quote
Yurovsky supervised the burial detail.


Yes,  I think he was supervising all the burials.

And,  I think he has chosen by Lenin.  But that is for another discussion.

3.
Quote
Alexei's body was separated from the others and possibly burned, possibly buried elsewhere.


Yurovsky and others claimed he was killed in the basement.

Yurovsky  claimed Alexei's body was burned and buried near the mass grave.

Was it possible.  Yes.

Is this what I think what happen?

I'm still pondering.....

Why don't I know?

Alexei's remains have not been found.

What do I speculate?  I'll just talk about the Perm angle.

Testimony of Perm residence and others.

Three kinds of  evidence pops out at me in the various testimonies.

There are a number of  people who claim that they were on various trains during that time period which was stopped and searched by Reds looking for Alexei.

I believe one of the eye witnesses had to talk quickly and with great emotion to the soldier who thought this man's son looked like Alexei.  The soldier already had the man's son by the arm and wanted to take him.... [ It was something like that.  No book near me to check but that was the jest of it,  I believe.]

Another was a man in charge of the Red Cross who not only talked about the train he was on being searched for Alexei,  he, also, left a letter written to one of his children,  I believe it, was, telling them about the search.

Another testimony talks about seeing Alexei and G D Anatasia with men dressed as Red soliders getting into a carriage in the woods near Perm.

Did these people know each other?  I don't think they did.

Do I think these were stories planted by the CHEKA or Ural Soviets?   The people on the trains and the Red Cross executive were not fabricating evidence.

Do I think the CHEKA or the Ural Soviets sent soldiers to pretend they were looking for Alexei?  That doesn't seem probable.

Could Alexei survived blows and wounds if injuried during the execution attempt or flight,  I doubt he would have lived for very long if he had.

About the only thing I can say for sure at this time is:  Alexei's body is missing.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 27, 2006, 07:08:19 PM
Louis Charles
4.
Quote
The women were taken to Perm and held for an indeterminate amount of time.


Possible.

5.
Quote
Anastasia broke free, but was recaptured.


Possible

Quote
The women are executed, either in Perm or they are taken back to Ekaterinburg (unlikely as long as it was in the hands of the Whites, of course).


It appears they may have waited until after the White had left Ekaterinburg before killing the women,  Alexandera,  three daughters and maybe Demidova.  Since Yurovsky may not have yet returned to Ekateinburg,  they may have been buried elsewhere then reburied by Yurovsky later.

If I remember correctly, Yurovsky had gone to Moscow on the 19th or 20th.   Whites took the area.   A year later the Reds retook Ekaterinburg.  Yurovsky was to return to Ekaterinburg and ended up in a position which took him back into the Ipatiev House which was being used by the local govt.,  I believe.  But don't have dates so will return with this data when I can.

Mass grave tells us:
IV.  #2 Botkin was 90 to 100 centimeters below the surface  
V., VI, & VII. #3, #5, & #6 the three GD Duchess  were the same depth of 92 to  100 centimeters below the surface.  
VIII. Demidova was at 90 centimeters  
IX.  Alexandra was 79 to 96 centimeters  

Botkin's remains seem to have been placed in the grave before the women.

6.
Quote
Anastasia was either executed apart from everyone else and buried separately, or she escaped again and vanished (since the DNA has demonstrated that she could not have been Anna Andersen).


One of Nicholas II's daughters remains were not found in the mass grave.  One of them  is missing.  So, the scenario you presented is possible.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 28, 2006, 12:36:06 AM
Bear seems to have ignored what I consider the salient question about my construct, and what renders it ultimately unacceptable to me. That would be the logistics of the mythical (sorry, speculative) "re-burial". I think the willingness to accept every shred of rumor as hard evidence that the event discussed might be the solution speaks volumes about the ability as a historian.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Grand_Duke_Paul on January 28, 2006, 09:31:52 AM
Quote
Bear seems to have ignored what I consider the salient question about my construct, and what renders it ultimately unacceptable to me. That would be the logistics of the mythical (sorry, speculative) "re-burial". I think the willingness to accept every shred of rumor as hard evidence that the event discussed might be the solution speaks volumes about the ability as a historian.


In Bear's defense I think her interest is in exploring all aspects of this case, that is admirable.  However I personally think that the entire Perm story is misinformation.  Clearly the grave in pigs meadow is that of the Imperial Family.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 28, 2006, 10:06:51 AM
For the record, I am not criticizing her desire to explore every angle of the case. As I said in a previous post, her speculations are occasionally provocative.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on January 28, 2006, 10:12:56 AM
Quote

  However I personally think that the entire Perm story is misinformation.  Clearly the grave in pigs meadow is that of the Imperial Family.



Yes, I think so too. But if it were true, it would throw a monkey wrench into AA's tale, wouldn't it? ;)

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 28, 2006, 10:19:02 AM
The grave by itself does not throw a monkey-wrench into Andersen's tale. After all, Anastasia's body is missing.

This thread is not about Anna Andersen, whose story played no direct role in the Perm allegations.

Since we are all understandably sensitive about the threads in this section degenerating into sniper attacks, I think it would be a good idea to try and stay as on-topic as possible.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on January 28, 2006, 10:24:19 AM
Since AA is the main topic of discussion around here, I don't think it's wrong to point out that the Perm story would render her story impossible, because it showed AN alive with other family members. No Ekaterinburg massacre, no Alexander T. and his pushcart. However, we know that the Perm stories were not true. The grave itself did have 2 missing bodies, and the massacre did take place in the Ipatiev house as history tells us.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 28, 2006, 10:53:04 AM
Quote
Bear seems to have ignored what I consider the salient question about my construct, and what renders it ultimately unacceptable to me. That would be the logistics of the mythical (sorry, speculative) "re-burial". I think the willingness to accept every shred of rumor as hard evidence that the event discussed might be the solution speaks volumes about the ability as a historian.


The "re-burial" has been speculated because of the missing bones which, according to some experts, suggest that the bodies were buried elsewhere and then placed into the mass grave.

I'll go get one of the diagram which shows the missing bones.

Quote
The parts in black are the bones missing according to Kleir and Mingay:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/skeleton123.jpg)

They are listed as:

1. Anna Demidova    2. Evgeny Botkin  3. GD Olga Nikolaevna


AGRBear


You can follow the thread and find the other diagrams for the other victims found.

When it was asked if these bones in the hands and feet would have decayed first since the bones are smaller,  the answer was that  some of these bones would have decayed and some would not.  The difficulty is that ALL of these bones are missing in fragment or in part from the mass grave.

Before you can accept the specualtion of a reburiel,  one has to understand what is in and what is missing from the mass grave.
What is missing are too many bones.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on January 28, 2006, 11:16:17 AM
Quote

In Bear's defense I think her interest is in exploring all aspects of this case, that is admirable.  However I personally think that the entire Perm story is misinformation.  Clearly the grave in pigs meadow is that of the Imperial Family.


I have not said that the bones found in the mass grave didn't belong to those whom Dr. Gill and the others claim them to be.  My speculation is that the mass grave may not have been the third intended grave but maybe the fourth.

First being the Four Brothers Mine.

The second was partly dug and left.

The third is said to have been the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

The grave of the missing two is unknown but Yurovsky claimed it was near the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

Yes, the CHEKA, Ural and Moscow Soviets, GPU and later the KGB and communists were/are very good in fabricating stories.  

As I have explained,  good liers always keep as close to the truth as they can because it's more difficult to tell where the truth ends and the lies begin.

If the bodies were buried elsewhere and not in the mass grave on the 17th,  then we have too look elsewhere for answers.

Perms seems to have been a hot spot for such stories.  Are some of them fabricated?  Probably.  Are some of them the truth?  I don't know.

Would Yurovsky lie?  Yes.

Would Ermakov lie?  Yes.

Would other revolutionaries lie?  Yes.

Are all revolutionaries and Bolsheviks liers.  No.

I think it is important too open up to all the testimony be it from Perm AND elsewhere.

Sokolov was said to have eliminated the Perm testimonies.  I don't have his book.  Hopefully my copy is in the mail.  So I'll comment with more authority on his stuff later.  Anyway,  I"m told he did NOT place any weight on these testimonies.  This may have proven to be a political move/demand of White's Gen. Diterikhs.    I think there were about or more than 40 testimonies.   But the earlier investigators did follow some of these leads.  Some of this testimony has been lost or are in some old archives waiting to be found, unless they were destoryed like so much of this information has been through the years.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: horace on May 21, 2006, 06:15:14 PM
yes
yes
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sasta33 on May 22, 2006, 10:30:28 AM
1) Yes
2) Probably not


I guess we'll never really know. That's what makes it frustrating.


Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Dctalk3185 on May 22, 2006, 01:24:04 PM
absolutely, positively, 1000% no to both

which is very tragic… :'(

Nick
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 24, 2006, 04:16:21 AM
No, absolutely not, to both.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: aussiechick12 on May 24, 2006, 04:47:55 AM

- No

- No
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 24, 2006, 05:37:15 PM
No.

No.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: GD_Sasha on June 16, 2006, 10:11:47 AM
Absolutely no to both of the questions.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 16, 2006, 04:53:55 PM
No survivors of the 1918 Ekaterinburg massacre.

No to Anna Anderson being any member of the Imperial Family or the Imperial Suite.

[ch1044][ch1072][ch1074][ch1080][ch1076]
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Belochka on June 17, 2006, 05:08:50 AM
Quote
No survivors of the 1918 Ekaterinburg massacre.

No to Anna Anderson being any member of the Imperial Family or the Imperial Suite.

[ch1044][ch1072][ch1074][ch1080][ch1076]

[size=10]It is extraordinary that pathetic myths have evolved and continue to rotate in never ending spirals and are prefered because the horrendous massacre of innocents is more difficult to reconcile.[/size]

[ch1052][ch1072][ch1088][ch1075][ch1072][ch1088][ch1080][ch1090][ch1072] [/color]
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on June 17, 2006, 06:52:15 AM
It's very sad some people keep turning the tragedy of this family into a fun game and circus. What's worse is when people (well one in particular) keep accusing us of 'you just don't want it to be her! ' What? It would have been so great to have someone survive and live to tell the tale, but it didn't happen, so why keep pretending just because that's more fun? It's disrespectful to their memories.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Belochka on June 18, 2006, 11:40:16 PM
Quote
It's very sad some people keep turning the tragedy of this family into a fun game and circus. What's worse is when people (well one in particular) keep accusing us of 'you just don't want it to be her! ' What? It would have been so great to have someone survive and live to tell the tale, but it didn't happen, so why keep pretending just because that's more fun? It's disrespectful to their memories.

[size=10]Indeed the entire pathetic charade enhanced by western authorship has run its course. The less than imperious performance has received its final curtain call long ago. There can be no applause, only respectful silence for all those who were massacred on that horrendous night in July.[/size]  :'(
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: ChatNoir on June 19, 2006, 12:07:03 AM
Quote
  [size=10]Indeed the entire pathetic charade enhanced by western authorship has run its course. The less than imperious performance has received its final curtain call long ago. There can be no applause, only respectful silence for all those who were massacred on that horrendous night in July

Ain't that the truth.
And when you find the remnants of those two bodies, you will let me know, won't you.

ChatNoir
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Belochka on June 19, 2006, 02:51:55 AM
Quote
And when you find the remnants of those two bodies, you will let me know, won't you.

ChatNoir

 
[size=10]If you are attempting to be discourteous you have succceeded. Your disrespectful tone has been noted, and fails to uplift this discussion.[/size][/color]
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: EmmyLee on June 20, 2006, 01:11:45 PM
Might as well pop in and give my answers, although they concur with many of the other members of this forum. I say 'NO' to both questions.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: granduchess_leah on October 29, 2006, 06:28:04 AM
well tell you the truth i aint quite sure  :P cause no one nows if anastasia surrived or alexie cause there is no clues  :(to weather or not anyone surived ....
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 29, 2006, 11:57:45 AM
One of the areas I have studied about the Imperial Family and their murder is the stories of those who claim to be survivors of Ekaterinburg, and of course more recently, the descendants of survivor claimants. While some of the stories are outright ridiculous, others are interesting and compelling, all on their own. I thought it might be interesting to discuss these on a thread of their own, but a thread with definite rules so that discussion can continue:

1. While it is more likely that all the family perished at Ekaterinburg, the main reasons for survivor stories appears to be the fact that the killings were undertaken in secret and the fact that the Koptyaki grave was short two bodies, and that both of these facts were somewhat known.

2. This discussion is not about the murders themselves, which has its own area, the Final Chapter. Nor is it a place for claimant/claimant families, or which claimant is the "true heir". This topic has its own area, For Claimants. This topic is for the Suvivor Stories themselves. For example, AA's story was that she was rescued by a guard, transported by cart, went to Bucharest, etc. The story itself could be discussed here, but not AA's DNA tests, which have several threads of their own. I will delete without warning or explanation anything OT to the stories.

3. Please remain respectful of one another, the survivor stories, and those relating them. If you consider the whole issue of survivors impossible, ridiculous, or outside of your religion, do not presume that everyone else feels the way you do or that this gives you permission to be disrespectul to the beliefs of others. I will delete without warning or explanation anything I consider disrespectful.

Anything more that needs to be added to our rules?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on October 29, 2006, 08:11:41 PM
One of the areas I have studied about the Imperial Family and their murder is the stories of those who claim to be survivors of Ekaterinburg, and of course more recently, the descendants of survivor claimants. While some of the stories are outright ridiculous, others are interesting and compelling, all on their own. I thought it might be interesting to discuss these on a thread of their own, but a thread with definite rules so that discussion can continue:

1. While it is more likely that all the family perished at Ekaterinburg, the main reasons for survivor stories appears to be the fact that the killings were undertaken in secret and the fact that the Koptyaki grave was short two bodies, and that both of these facts were somewhat known.

2. This discussion is not about the murders themselves, which has its own area, the Final Chapter. Nor is it a place for claimant/claimant families, or which claimant is the "true heir". This topic has its own area, For Claimants. This topic is for the Suvivor Stories themselves. For example, AA's story was that she was rescued by a guard, transported by cart, went to Bucharest, etc. The story itself could be discussed here, but not AA's DNA tests, which have several threads of their own. I will delete without warning or explanation anything OT to the stories.

3. Please remain respectful of one another, the survivor stories, and those relating them. If you consider the whole issue of survivors impossible, ridiculous, or outside of your religion, do not presume that everyone else feels the way you do or that this gives you permission to be disrespectul to the beliefs of others. I will delete without warning or explanation anything I consider disrespectful.

Anything more that needs to be added to our rules?

Lisa,
Thank you for starting this thread. I look forward to the discussion as I do have an interest in the survivor stories.  So count me as a participant and I will post more later on stories I have read etc. If I am notably absent, it is because my daughter-in-law is due to give birth to my first grandchild any day.
Thank you again for starting this discussion, I think it will be fun.
Lexi
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 29, 2006, 11:23:42 PM
My most interesting survivor case came to me from a man living in the Midwestern U.S. He was certain that his mother had been Grand Duchess Tatiana. I approached the whole thing with a reasonable amount of skepticism. For instance, when he gave me his and his sister's dates of birth, "Tatiana's" age would have been rather old for having children. However, there were two things about this case that I found interesting. The photos he provided were nothing short of amazing - and I have never been one who saw anything of the IF in Anna Anderson, for example. But this woman looked incredibly like what an older Tatiana would have looked like.

The second thing is that, when this claim surfaced, it was the only survivor claim that matched up with the forensic evidence. I thought it might be worth some time to investigate. This woman told a story of being rescued by an tsarist officer who had been evacuated to Ekaterinburg. He was able to search the Fiat truck when it broke down and the burial party left it. He found Alexei with a pulse and offloaded him - and then he found the sister. Somehow, they lost track of her brother, but he was able to get her to a peasant's dwelling while she recovered. They never were able to find the brother. They made their escape via Ufa and eventually went to the Balkans.

The gist of this story is repeated in Eugenia Smith's Anastasia "biography". Apparently the sister hired Smith to front for her and getting the "true story" told. She also wanted to discredit Anna Anderson. The sister made her way to Chicago where she married a well do to man and had two children - a son and a daughter. She even appears briefly in an independent film that was released in 1950. She apparently had an interesting life both here and in Europe and died of a cardiac ailment in 1969. She related most of her story to her son in the latter years of her life. His sister - the alleged Tatiana's daughter - never believed these stories and refuses to have DNA testing done.

As I related before, I encouraged the man to proceed with DNA testing. He had taken the extraordinary step of obtaining a blood sample from Princess Katherine of Yugoslavia (Victoria - Alice of Hesse - Victoria Milford Haven - Alice of Greece - Theodora of Baden - Margarita of Yugoslavia - Katherine de Silva) ahead of the Duke of Edinburgh's sample which was eventually used to identify the remains of the Imperial Family. This sample, by the way, has an mtDNA sequence identical to that of the DOE's - not a surprise to anyone except conspiracy buffs. And, as I also said before, the son's mtDNA did not match the Victorian sequence. At this point, I felt I had hit a dead end.

Then, the son said he was not his mother's natural son - which seemed really curious, because if he knew this, why did he even bother to get himself tested? He was going to try to work on the sister getting tested, who still wants to remain private - which is why I am mentioning no one by name. I saw a picture of the son's grandson who is a hockey player who looks just like - Nicholas II! (Which would not make sense if you are following this story at all). I have heard nothing from this family for years, but I do have his written consent to exhume his mother's body, obtain a sample, and if she is the missing grand duchess, repatriate her remains to Russia.

The movie in which his mother appeared was released on DVD this summer and I intend to order it from Amazon. It's David Bradley's Julius Caesar and as soon as I see it, I'll see if the mother still resembles TN.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: stepan on October 31, 2006, 05:56:48 PM
Thank you for this story Lisa !  Very interesting. I find the claimant´s connection to Eugenia Smith specially fascinating and I hope it will be possible to find out more about this woman.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: skirt on November 06, 2006, 08:02:30 PM
Oh this is a good one Lisa! Any chance we can see some comparison photos?
"Tatiana's" age wouldnt really matter much if he was adopted..
I still cannot imagine someone going through all of that effort to get DNA tests done knowing that they were an adopted child- I'm sticking with the 'I'm so sure my mommy was GD Tatiana- geez I must be adoped!!" theory..
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 06, 2006, 11:26:02 PM
Oh this is a good one Lisa! Any chance we can see some comparison photos?
"Tatiana's" age wouldnt really matter much if he was adopted..
I still cannot imagine someone going through all of that effort to get DNA tests done knowing that they were an adopted child- I'm sticking with the 'I'm so sure my mommy was GD Tatiana- geez I must be adoped!!" theory..

Since I don't own the photos, I have concerns about posting them given the woman's daughter wants (and is entitled to) her privacy. I showed Greg and Penny the photos years ago and I believe John Kendrick has seen them too. If any of them have their emails, perhaps they can send them to me and I could forward you the email privately.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: skirt on November 07, 2006, 04:20:33 PM
I absolutely would love to look at them, if anyone still has them- feel free to send them on through!
If you have written consent - is it something you are concidering? Does it cost a great deal of money to pursue this?
I'm sure you came across ALOT of strange claims
can we hear some more?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 07, 2006, 05:25:32 PM
I absolutely would love to look at them, if anyone still has them- feel free to send them on through!
If you have written consent - is it something you are concidering? Does it cost a great deal of money to pursue this?
I'm sure you came across ALOT of strange claims
can we hear some more?


The only money costs have been the costs to be online and then all my books. What it costs otherwise to pursue this is lots of perseverence and enough self esteem to not be bothered if others do not consider this to be a legitimate line of inquiry.

The strange claims are legion. Once when I was first online, a man contacted me and said he was the son of Grand Duke Michael. When I told him I would never believe Michael would have abandoned his family that had escaped to the West, he letter bombed me! It took a bit of time to get our computer back to normal again, but his ISP was not pleased with him.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: skirt on November 07, 2006, 06:05:40 PM
Sorry to hear that! Some people have serious issues...lol
So this 'Tatiana' story is just another fabrication, from an old lady? Or do you think the son made it up?
Concidering the amount of information and length of study you have endured- if you feel that this is another claim not worth pursuing .. you'd definetly be the one to know-

I thought that exhuming a body and testing would cost a large sum of money.  So many
responses on this part of the
forum (particularily the survivor section- its truely brilliant here!) there seems to be quite an interest in these claimants..do you have a grand total that you have inquired on behalf? Any other storys that got you really interested?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: lexi4 on November 07, 2006, 08:24:37 PM
Oh this is a good one Lisa! Any chance we can see some comparison photos?
"Tatiana's" age wouldnt really matter much if he was adopted..
I still cannot imagine someone going through all of that effort to get DNA tests done knowing that they were an adopted child- I'm sticking with the 'I'm so sure my mommy was GD Tatiana- geez I must be adoped!!" theory..

Since I don't own the photos, I have concerns about posting them given the woman's daughter wants (and is entitled to) her privacy. I showed Greg and Penny the photos years ago and I believe John Kendrick has seen them too. If any of them have their emails, perhaps they can send them to me and I could forward you the email privately.

I have one photo, but no scanner so I don't have any way to post it here.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Tania+ on November 07, 2006, 08:31:03 PM
If it is permissable, I also would like to ask if I might have a photograph sent me. It is interesting to see what or who these persons might look like, that is, if they do. Thank you Lisa for posting this information. It is fascinating.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: duke felix on November 15, 2006, 03:27:02 PM
NO to both answers. Completely without doubt.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Nikl on December 13, 2006, 12:30:00 PM
Hello everybody,

I do not know, if this is right thread.  I hope you will understand my poor english.  I am living in Canada, but originally I am from the Czech Republic.
I have for you a story about my grandmother.  I do not want to claim, that she is Anastasia or Maria, I would only like to write this story to someone.  I hear of this story from my family.  My grandmother was born in Russia.  She died in Czechoslovakia 1985.

 In the year of 1918 came to town of Jekaterinburg czech legionars. Local people asked them if they could take to Czechoslovakia a young women. They told them that, the girl was adopted by local family, but they died and nobody could take care of her. They had all necessary document for them.  After a few weeks legioners (with a girl) left the town  They carried on their way to Vladivostock. From there they sailed for port Istanbul (in Europe).
In the year of 1919 the legioners finally came back to Czechoslovakia. One of the legioners got married and he and his wife adopted this young women who came with legioners from Russia.
When this women was 25 years old, she got married and later on has 10 children (5 boys and 5 daughters). The oldest daughter was my mother.
When my grandmother's adoptive parents were geting too old, they gave their youngest son the letter in which was the story explain. In the letter was, that my grandmother originate from Russian aristocracy family.  In letter also was writen that when my grandmother came to Czechoslovakia she speaked fluently russian and also speaked good german and french.

My family could not do nothing with this letter in communist era. In the year of 1989, when the communist regime colapsed in Czechoslovakia, my mother brought the letter to Canada. In my first 10 years of residing in Canada I could not act upon anything, because of my limited knowlledge of the English language.

In the future I would like go for DNA test, but I hear that they do not do the test in Canada, only in the USA.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Belochka on December 13, 2006, 05:47:35 PM
...  In letter also was writen that when my grandmother came to Czechoslovakia she speaked fluently russian and also speaked good german and french.

In the future I would like go for DNA test, but I hear that they do not do the test in Canada, only in the USA.


Hello Nikl,

Did your grandmother speak any English?

DNA tests are performed in Canada, just look through the phone directory for an accredited facility.

Margarita
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 13, 2006, 06:16:49 PM
My grandmother was born in Russia.  She died in Czechoslovakia 1985. In the year of 1918 came to town of Jekaterinburg czech legionars. ....In the future I would like go for DNA test, but I hear that they do not do the test in Canada, only in the USA.


Hi Nikl,

I am just curious, what makes you think that you need to have a DNA test (i.e that your grandma was a Romanov)? There were lots of people who were born in Russia and left in 1918... Unless there is some part of the story that we are missing  ???. I don't mean to sound unkind, but why would you just assume something like that?



Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 13, 2006, 07:01:38 PM
My grandmother was born in Russia.  She died in Czechoslovakia 1985. In the year of 1918 came to town of Jekaterinburg czech legionars. ....In the future I would like go for DNA test, but I hear that they do not do the test in Canada, only in the USA.


Hi Nikl,

I am just curious, what makes you think that you need to have a DNA test (i.e that your grandma was a Romanov)? There were lots of people who were born in Russia and left in 1918... Unless there is some part of the story that we are missing  ???. I don't mean to sound unkind, but why would you just assume something like that?





I had the same reaction that Helen did. It makes perfect sense that during the Civil War, a young woman of the aristocracy would try to escape from Russia. There were many "formers" who were killed, so their children were orphaned and of course would want to escape. That kind of story of and in itself does not indicate to me a Romanov connection.

If you read Kurth's introduction to his Anastasia book, he says that "Anastasia is a story of emigres" - or something to that effect. Many people besides the Romanovs lost everything - home, jobs, and money. So many of them wanted to believe that someone from the old life had survived - which gave impetus to otherwise rational people believing Anastasia survived Ekaterinburg. That, I think is a big piece of all the survivor stories.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 13, 2006, 07:04:18 PM
Oh this is a good one Lisa! Any chance we can see some comparison photos?
"Tatiana's" age wouldnt really matter much if he was adopted..
I still cannot imagine someone going through all of that effort to get DNA tests done knowing that they were an adopted child- I'm sticking with the 'I'm so sure my mommy was GD Tatiana- geez I must be adoped!!" theory..

Since I don't own the photos, I have concerns about posting them given the woman's daughter wants (and is entitled to) her privacy. I showed Greg and Penny the photos years ago and I believe John Kendrick has seen them too. If any of them have their emails, perhaps they can send them to me and I could forward you the email privately.

I have one photo, but no scanner so I don't have any way to post it here.

Why don't you PM me? If you have the photo so many are interested in, I don't mind financing a copy or a scan so that people can take a non-public look at it.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Nikl on December 13, 2006, 07:21:43 PM
Hi Nikl,

I am just curious, what makes you think that you need to have a DNA test (i.e that your grandma was a Romanov)? There were lots of people who were born in Russia and left in 1918... Unless there is some part of the story that we are missing  ???. I don't mean to sound unkind, but why would you just assume something like that?



I would like to go for DNA test, because I am the oldest of all granchild.  My mother also died in 2003.
For me and my family it would be also curious to find out who was really my grandmother.  In my familly wander rumors, that my grandmother may by Anastasia.  ;)  I do not believe in that, but she could by somebody else of  relative of tszar family. Posibility she could be a bastard of some women who has child with Rasputin.  My uncle (my mother's brother) look like Rasputin :)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on December 13, 2006, 10:05:45 PM
Why can't they do the DNA in Canada ??? You are the son of the woman's daughter, right?

A bastard child of Rasputin, that's funny. I never thought there might be some, but there could be!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Nikl on December 13, 2006, 11:11:35 PM
Why can't they do the DNA in Canada ??? You are the son of the woman's daughter, right?

A bastard child of Rasputin, that's funny. I never thought there might be some, but there could be!

I am not sure if they do not do DNA in Canada. I was told, that I must send application form to USA's  laboratory. But this was about 3 years ego. They may have now other rules.                               Yes I am grandson of women who came from Russia.

I am sure that Rusputin had many bastard childrens. :(    In these days was not easy to go for abortion. :(

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Belochka on December 13, 2006, 11:32:32 PM
I am sure that Rusputin had many bastard childrens.

I am sure that you are mistaken.  :o
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Annie on December 14, 2006, 06:32:04 AM
If he'd had any, I'm sure someone would have claimed to be them by now ;)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Nikl on December 14, 2006, 01:56:43 PM
If he'd had any, I'm sure someone would have claimed to be them by now ;)

It is almost seem like you pick on me ;)

Why Rasputin's bastards would claim that they are Rusputin childrens? :o
Do you think that they could have from it some privilege?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 14, 2006, 02:20:08 PM

I would like to go for DNA test, because I am the oldest of all granchild.  My mother also died in 2003.
For me and my family it would be also curious to find out who was really my grandmother.  In my familly wander rumors, that my grandmother may by Anastasia.  ;)  I do not believe in that, but she could by somebody else of  relative of tszar family. Posibility she could be a bastard of some women who has child with Rasputin.  My uncle (my mother's brother) look like Rasputin :)

So whose DNA will you be comparing yours to? Prince Philip's or someone else? Just getting your DNA sequence is not going to tell you anything, you need something to compare it to... I doubt you will be able to find out if Rasputin was Grandpapa one way or another, since not only do you not have a confirmed sample of his DNA (unless you tell us otherwise), but he would be neither your direct paternal (Y-linked) nor maternal (mtDNA) ancestor... Maybe you can just pretend.  ;)

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Belochka on December 17, 2006, 07:29:39 PM
My uncle (my mother's brother) look like Rasputin :)
... Maybe you can just pretend.  ;)

Excellent advice Helen. Although one must ask ... why bother at all?  ??? ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Nikl on December 17, 2006, 11:24:34 PM
My uncle (my mother's brother) look like Rasputin :)
... Maybe you can just pretend.  ;)

Excellent advice Helen. Although one must ask ... why bother at all?  ??? ::)

 :D :P
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Lordtranwell on January 12, 2007, 01:51:31 PM
I was very interested in Lisa's story about photographs and Tatiana.  In 'No Resting Place....' Edwards shows a photograph of Tatiana next to one of Tudor's second wife's photograph and they are dead ringers.  Occleshaw suggested strongly his photograph (the Harrogate one) was very much like Tatiana.  What I am saying is we need to be very careful with photographic evidence and not rely too heavily on our own impressions - maybe we see what we want to see?  For my money the Occleshaw photograph looks nothing like any other I have seen of Tatiana and there is evidence that he did not mean the circled girl at all.

Thank you to all the contributors to this topic - I have enjoyed reading all the items.

Tranwell.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Candygirl3 on January 20, 2007, 11:34:17 AM
Last week, I watched a movie about Anastasia (Anastasia: The Mystery Of Anna) and I was wondering, if she really survived. Because I've heard that, with the information of the skeletons found of the royal family, Anastasia died, and Marie and Alexei were the ones that survived. Of course I have heard of Anna Anderson, but I really would be intrested, if somebody would give me an answer to my question.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on January 20, 2007, 01:08:10 PM
There's a whole discussion board full of threads that will answer your question.

It's called 'The Question of Survivors'.  Just scroll down the main forum page and you'll find it.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Taren on January 20, 2007, 01:31:35 PM
You won't be able to find one conclusive answer, because each side has supporters that refuse to change their minds. The best thing to do is read the evidence for both sides and form your own opinion.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on January 20, 2007, 02:46:04 PM
   The Russian scientists think it is Maria missing and the American scientists think Anastasia is missing. They both agree that Alexei is missing. Maybe if you read this it may help solve a answer your question. You may have to figure this out on your own since there is no definite answer and the Americans or Russians can not agree on if Anastasia is missing or Maria. This is who the people at the livadia website believe who is missing. You have to read though it first to understand. It tells you what Yurovsky's and his murder group did during the night of the murder and the burial place of the dead bodies.  :)

http://www.livadia.org/missing/
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Holly on January 20, 2007, 08:53:50 PM
Very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very highly unlikely. I'm sure she's just buried somewhere in Russia right now, waiting to be found.  ;) Keep reading up on the execution and I'm sure you can form your own opinion about it. I recommend reading, "The Romanov's: The Final Chapter" by Robert K. Massie. I think you'd enjoy it.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on January 21, 2007, 09:06:34 AM
 Yeah your write Holly the Russians should try to look around more in the woods if they can find two missing remains but it is very difficult find were they are the bones could have possibly been turned into ashes since the murderers burned their bodies with toxic sulfuric acid. It was in 1918, 88 years ago. So the two missing remains of Alexei and his sister probaly been turned into ashes. If the Russians want to know who is missing so badly. They should have realy looked intead of guessing that was Maria. Tatiana was defantly not missing her remains were in the grave. The people at livadia.org claim that Tatiana is missing but the Russians have to find the two missing bodies I think to get a better identification of who was the girl. Plus they found nine remains in 1979 keep it a secret because the circumstances of their country change and are right, and ten years later the told the Russians that they found the remains. But the scientists were 98% sure of who all the eight bodies were and Americans agreed that they were eight people who were the imperial family and their servants. They have Olga identified, Tatiana identified too. But they could not identify which grand duchesses is the other body if it is either Maria to the Russians or Anastasia to the Americans or where Alexei is. I do not known who is missing it is so confusing and it makes it harder for people to try and think it out themselves . So I think they should search so more!!! :)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: granduchess_leah on January 21, 2007, 10:03:24 AM
i agree we waited for to long
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Kimberly on January 21, 2007, 03:43:16 PM
Girls, find one of Belochka's posts and click on the link at the bottom (SEARCH)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on January 21, 2007, 08:40:28 PM
Girls, find one of Belochka's posts and click on the link at the bottom (SEARCH)

http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/ (http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Belochka on January 21, 2007, 08:44:02 PM
Girls, find one of Belochka's posts and click on the link at the bottom (SEARCH)

Save you the trouble to find one of my posts!

Thank you for your interest.

Margarita  :)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on January 23, 2007, 08:21:45 PM
  It realy has been too long 88 years and still no bones found of Alexei and Anastasia or Maria. I wish they would find the bones that could be buried a long distance from were the other nine remains were, or maybe its too late because they may have been turned into ashes and dust 88 years ago thats a long time for bones to survive in the damaged, carelessly treated, neglected and abused condition they were in, already because they were so damaged and abused by the killers the sulfuric acids may have completly destroyed their bodies since the toxic chemical destroys human remains almost or completly and its too late their remains maybe or are gone forever.This maybe the reason probaly why the search team and the scientists can not find the two missings remains that were sad to be separatly buried they could have been turned into dust already I think. :(
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Kurt Steiner on February 03, 2007, 06:54:36 AM
My common sense -I'm too much logical- tells me that it is not possible that no one could survive the execution at the Itipaiev House. My romantic being, however, wishes that somebody could escape from that horrible death.

Thus, being trapped between my two sides, I can hardly say anything fina, about it.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Eddie_uk on February 03, 2007, 07:22:14 AM
Good lord people!! Let's be sensible here!! how could ANYONE possibily survive?? Let alone escape!!! ::) ::)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on February 03, 2007, 07:25:13 AM
I've asked FA to move this thread to the appropriate forum.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: grandduchess_42 on February 03, 2007, 06:38:08 PM
ok... i've always been very confused why people say that there is
a surivor of Alexei.

Correct me if i'm wrong!
it was said that Yakov Yurovsky, saw Alexei still moving, and shot him twice in the temples!

now, i've heard people surviving after being shot point blank in the face
but Alexei was an hemopheliac!! (sp)
there is no physicaly way he could have survived!

i've also heard stories that Leonka, the imperial family's kitchen boy, was switched with alexei.
if thats the story they are refering to please tell me, because i'm so confused!

also, if there is already a thread about this please tell me!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on February 03, 2007, 06:50:08 PM
Correct me if i'm wrong!
it was said that Yakov Yurovsky, saw Alexei still moving, and shot him twice in the temples!
Correct

Quote
now, i've heard people surviving after being shot point blank in the face
but Alexei was an hemopheliac!! (sp)
there is no physicaly way he could have survived!
I agree. It's extremely unlikely.

Quote
i've also heard stories that Leonka, the imperial family's kitchen boy, was switched with alexei.
if thats the story they are refering to please tell me, because i'm so confused!
I don't think that's possible either. According to Alexandra's diary, Leonka was removed from the Ipatiev house on the afternoon before the execution. Surely the guards would have been able to recognize the two boys, and would have noticed the switch.



Aleksei's body has never been found, so we have no physical evidence of his death. However, just because his body is missing doesn't mean he survived. ;)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: grandduchess_42 on February 03, 2007, 07:05:04 PM
so... because there was no body found... people said that he survived?
thats ridiculous!
why would they think that?

well i guess the information about the romanvos wasn't let out to the public in?
i forgot the year!!

but don't you think that it might be possible that the boys was switch?
i quess your right that they weren't switched.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on February 03, 2007, 07:14:56 PM
so... because there was no body found... people said that he survived?
thats ridiculous!
why would they think that?
Well, NONE of the bodies were found until 1979, I believe. Before then, the details of the murder and Aleksei's health weren't as commonly known as they are now. People were more willing to believe in the possibility of survivors.


Quote
but don't you think that it might be possible that the boys was switch?
Nope. By the time of the execution, Aleksei had been living in the Ipatiev house for about 2 months. Yurovsky, the guards, and the majority of the executioners  must have known what he looked like. I can't imagine how Aleksei could have switched places with Leonka in the middle of the afternoon without anyone noticing.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: James1941 on February 03, 2007, 11:40:35 PM
Beside the fact that the guards would have easily detected a switch, it was also unlikely because Alexei was bedridden and could not walk. It would have been very hard to have gotten him out past the several lines of guards without attracting attention.
And Sednev ended up with his family and wrote down his memories of the last days before dying at a young age of twenty something. Surely someone would have noticed it wasn't him. Unfortunately his memoirs have not yet been discovered.
One bullet from the killer's gun might have by a fluke traveled around the skin and not penetrated his brain, but not two. That is almost statistically impossible.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 04, 2007, 10:57:16 AM
I think the idea of a switch comes from a novel- The Kitchen Boy by Robert Alexander.  Although a very good work of FICTION, as happens, some take it for real.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Vecchiolarry on February 04, 2007, 12:59:56 PM
Hi,

This sounds like an overly glorified version of the baby in the warming pan brought into Mary of Modena.  Great fiction but not everybody is stupid and these things would have been noticed.

People must have known that Mary of Modena was pregnant for 9 months and now also that Alexei was an invalid, who couldn't just suddenly get up and walk (run) away.
And, the kitchen boy - wouldn't you think that he'd have said something when seeing all those guns pointed at him......  "Hey wait a minute, I'm supposed to be pealing potatoes not getting shot!!".....

Larry
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Jarian on February 04, 2007, 06:00:19 PM
If he was still alive he would have bleed to death beecause of his hemophilia
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on February 04, 2007, 07:31:47 PM
Correct me if i'm wrong!
it was said that Yakov Yurovsky, saw Alexei still moving, and shot him twice in the temples!

I've read somewhere that Yurovsky might of been lying about Alexei being shot in the temple because it would convince who ever read it that Alexei infact died. But he didn't mention Alexei really after that, when ever he described the children, he talked about the GD's, not Alexei. Probably because he wasen't there.

But that's all just a theory.

-Anya
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: grandduchess_42 on February 04, 2007, 07:55:28 PM
thats probably why people say hes still alive

i can't think of a reason why they would switch him out.
but mayve the two boys looked very alike!

is there any pictures of leonka?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Sarushka on February 04, 2007, 10:34:18 PM
is there any pictures of leonka?

I've never seen one... :(
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on February 05, 2007, 07:45:13 PM
 This is Yakov Yurovsky's account of what happened during the murder of the Romanov's he is telling what happened 16 years after the murder.

YUROVSKY'S ACCOUNT
OF
THE EXECUTION OF THE IMPERIAL FAMILY
February 1, 1934:
                                                                                Part I
On the 16th in the morning I dispatched the little cook, the boy Sednev, under the pretext that there would be a meeting with his uncle who had come to Sverdlovsk. It caused anxiety among the prisoners. Botkin, the usual intermediary, and then one of the daughters asked about Sednev - where, why and for how long he had been taken away - because Alexei missed him. Having received an explanation, they went away apparently calmed down. I prepared 12 revolvers and designated who would shoot whom. Comrade Filipp [Goloshchyokin] told me that a truck would arrive at midnight; the people coming would say a password; we would let them pass and hand over the corpses to them to carry away and bury. At about 11 o'clock at night on July 16 I assembled the men again, handed out the revolvers and announced that soon we had to begin liquidating the prisoners. I told Pavel Medvedev he had to check the guard outside and inside thoroughly. He and the guard commander had to keep constant watch over the area around the house and in the house where the external guard was stationed and to maintain communications with me. I also told him that at the last moment, when everything was ready for the execution, he had tell the guards and the others in the detachment not to worry about any shots they might hear from the house, and not to leave the premises. If there were any unusual amount of unrest, he was to notify me through the established line of communication.

The truck did not arrive until half past one. The extra wait caused some anxiety - waiting in general, and the short night especially. Only when the truck had arrived (or after telephone calls that it was on the way) did I go to wake the prisoners. Botkin slept in the room nearest to the entrance. He came out and asked me what the matter was. I told him to wake everybody, because there was unrest in the town and it was dangerous for them to remain on the top floor. I said I would move them to another place. Gathering everybody consumed a lot of time, about 40 minutes. When the family had dressed, I led them to the room in the basement that had been designated earlier. It must be said here that when Comrade Nikulin and I thought up our plan, we did not consider beforehand that, one, the windows would let out noise; two, the victims would be standing next to a brick wall; and finally, three (It was impossible to foresee this), the firing would occur in an uncoordinated way. That should not have happened. Each man had one person to shoot and so everything should have been all right. The causes of the disorganized firing became clear later. Although I told [the victims] through Botkin that they did not have to take anything with them they collected various small things - pillows, bags and so on and, it seems to me, a small dog.

Having gone down to the room (At the entrance to the room, on the right there was a very wide window), I ordered them to stand along the wall. Obviously, at that moment they did not imagine what awaited them. Alexandra Feodrovna said "There are not even chairs here." Nicholas was carrying Alexei. He stood in the room with him in his arms. Then I ordered a couple of chairs. On one of them, to the right of the entrance, almost in the corner, Alexandra Feodrovna sat down. The daughters and Demidova stood next to her, to the left of the entrance. Beside them Alexei was seated in the armchair. Behind him Dr. Botkin, the cook and the others stood. Nicholas stood opposite Alexei. At the same time I ordered the men to go down and to be ready in their places when the command was given. Nicholas had put Alexei on the chair and stood in such a way, that he shielded him. Alexei sat in the left corner from the entrance, and so far as I can remember, I said to Nicholas approximately this: His royal and close relatives inside the country and abroad were trying to save him, but the Soviet of Workers' Deputies resolved to shoot them. He asked "What?" and turned toward Alexei. At that moment I shot him and killed him outright. He did not get time to face us to get an answer. At that moment disorganized, not orderly firing began. The room was small, but everybody could come in and carry out the shooting according to the set order. But many shot through the doorway. Bullets began to ricochet because the wall was brick. Moreover, the firing intensified when the victims shouts arose. I managed to stop the firing but with great difficulty.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on February 05, 2007, 07:59:28 PM
                                             Part II - at the end of and after the murder
 A bullet, fired by somebody in the back, hummed near my head and grazed either the palm or finger (I do not remember) of somebody. When the firing stopped, it turned out that the daughters, Alexandra Feodrovna and, it seems, Demidova and Alexei too, were alive. I think they had fallen from fear or maybe intentionally, and so they were alive. Then we proceeded to finish the shooting. (Previously I had suggested shooting at the heart to avoid a lot of blood). Alexei remained sitting petrified. I killed him. They shot the daughters but did not kill them. Then Yermakov resorted to a bayonet, but that did not work either. Finally they killed them by shooting them in the head. Only in the forest did I finally discover the reason why it had been so hard to kill the daughters and Alexandra Feodrovna.

After the shooting it was necessary to carry away the corpses, but it was a comparatively long way. How could we do it? Somebody came up with an idea: stretchers. (We did not think about it earlier.) We took shafts from the sledges and, it seems, put sheets on them. Having confirmed they were dead, we began to carry them out. It was discovered that traces of blood would be everywhere. I said to get some smooth woolen military cloth immediately and put some of it onto the stretchers and then line the truck with it. I directed Mikhail Medvedev to take the corpses. He was a Cheka man then and currently works in the GPU. He and Pyotr Zakharovich Yermakov had to take the bodies and take them away. When they had removed the first corpse somebody said (I do not remember exactly who it was) that someone had taken some valuables. Then I understood that evidently there had been valuables in the things that they had brought with them. I stopped the removal immediately, assembled the men and demanded the valuables be returned. After some denial, two men returned the valuables they had taken.

After I threatened the looters with shooting, I removed those two and ordered Comrade Nikulin (as far as I remember) to escort the bodies, having warned him about valuables. I first collected everything - the things they had taken and other things as well - and I sent all of it to the commandant's office.

Comrade Filipp [Goloshchyokin], apparently sparing me (My health was not very good), told me not to go to the "funeral" but I worried very much about disposing of the corpses properly. So I decided to go personally, and it turned out I did the right thing. Otherwise, all the corpses would wind up in the hands of the White Guards. It is easy to imagine how they would have exploited the situation.

After instructions were given to wash and clean everything, at about three o'clock or even a little later, we left. I took several men from the internal guards. I did not know where the corpses were supposed to be buried, as I have said. Filipp Goloshchyokin had assigned that to Comrade Yermakov (By the way it seems it was Pavel Vedvedev who told me that night that he had seen Comrade Filipp, when he was running to the team. Comrade Filipp was walking back and forth all the time near the house, apparently because he was anxious about how everything would turn out). Yermakov drove us somewhere at the Verkh-Isetsky Works. I was never at that place and did not know it. At about two-three versts (or maybe more) from the Verkh-Isetsky Works, a whole escort of people on horseback or in carriages met us. I asked Yermakov who these people were, why they were there. He answered that he had assembled those people. I still do not know why there were so many. I heard only shouts "We thought they would come here alive, but it turns out they are dead." Also, it seems about three-four versts farther our truck got stuck between two trees. There where we stopped several of Yermakov's people were stretching out girls' blouses. We discovered again that there were valuables and they were taking them. I ordered that men be posted to keep anyone from coming near the truck.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on February 05, 2007, 08:07:15 PM
                                                            Part III
The truck was stuck and could not move. I asked Yermakov, "Is it still far to the chosen place?" He said "Not far, beyond railroad beds." And there behind the trees was a marsh. Bogs were everywhere. I wondered "Why had he herded in so many people and horses. If only there had been carts instead of carriages." But there was nothing we could do. We had to unload to lighten the truck, but that did not help. Then I ordered them to load the carriages, because it was already light and we did not have time to wait any longer. Only at daybreak did we come to the famous "gully". Several steps from the mine where the burial had been planned, peasants were sitting around the fire, apparently having spent the night at the hayfield. On the way me met several people. It became impossible to carry on our work in sight of them. It must be said, the situation had become difficult. Everything might come to nothing. At that moment I still did not know that the mine would not meet our needs at all. And those damned valuables! Just then I did not know that there was so much of them or that the people Yermakov had recruited were unsuitable for the project. Yes, it was too much! I had to disperse the people. I found out we had gone about 15-16 versts from the city and had driven to the village of Koptyaki, two or three versts from there. We had to cordon the place off at some distance, and we did it. Besides that, I sent an order to the village to keep everybody out, explaining that the Czech Legion was not far away, that our units had assembled here and that it was dangerous to be here. I ordered the men to turn back anybody to the village and to shoot any stubborn, disobedient persons if that did not work. Another group of men was sent to the town because they were not needed. Having done all of this, I ordered [the men] to load the corpses and to take off the clothes for burning, that is, to destroy absolutely everything they had, to remove any additional incriminating evidence if the corpses were somehow discovered. I ordered bonfires. When we began to undress the bodies, we discovered something on the daughters and on Alexandra Feodrovna. I do not remember exactly what she had on, the same as on the daughters or simply things that had been sewed on. But the daughters had on bodices almost entirely of diamonds and [other] precious stones. Those were not only places for valuables but protective armor at the same time. That is why neither bullets nor bayonets got results. By the way, only they had guilt in their dying agony. The valuables turned out to be about one-half pud. Greed was so great that on Alexandra Feodrovna, by the way, there was simply an enormous piece of round gold wire, turned out as a sheer bracelet and weighing about one pound. All the valuables were ripped out immediately, so that it would not be necessary to carry the bloody rags around with us. Valuables discovered by the White Guards were undoubtedly related to those sewed into other things. After burning, they remained in the ashes. Several diamonds were handed over to me the next day by Comrades who had found them there. How did they overlook the other valuables? They had enough time for it. Most likely they simply did not figure it out. By the way, one has to suppose that some valuables will be returned to us through Torgsin ["Trade with foreigners" stores], because they were probably picked up by the peasants of the Koptyaki village after our departure. The valuables had been collected, the things had been burned and the completely naked corpses had been thrown into the mine. From that very moment new problems began. The water just barely covered the bodies. What should we do? We had the idea of blowing up the mines with bombs to cover them, but nothing came of it. I saw that the funeral had achieved nothing and that it was impossible to leave things that way. It was necessary to begin all over again. But what should we do? Where should we put the corpses? About at 2 p.m. I decided to go to the town, because it was clear that we had to extract the corpses from the mine and to carry them to another place. Even the blind could discover them. Besides, the place was exposed. People had seen something was going on there. I set up posts, guards in place, and took the valuables and left. I went to the regional executive committee and reported to the authorities how bad things were. Comrade Safarov and somebody else (I do not remember who) listened but said nothing. Then I found Filipp [Goloshchyokin] and explained to him we had to transfer the corpses to another place. When he agreed I proposed to send people to raise the corpses. At the same time I ordered him to take bread and food because the men were hungry and exhausted, not having slept for about 24 hours. They had to wait for me there. It turned out to be difficult to get to the corpses and lift them out. The men got very exhausted doing it. Apparently they were at it all night because they went there late.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on February 05, 2007, 08:09:52 PM
                                                               Part IV
   I went to the town executive committee, to Sergei Yergerovich Chutskayev who was its chairman at the time to ask for advice. Maybe he knew of a place. He proposed a very deep abandoned mine on the Moscow high road. I got a car, took someone from the regional Cheka with me, Polushin, it seems, and someone else and we left. But one and a half versts away from the appointed place the car broke down. The driver was left to repair it, and we went on foot. We looked over the place and decided it was good. The only problem was to avoid onlookers. Some people lived near the place and we decided to come and take them away to the town and after the project let them come back. That was our decision. We came back to the car but it had to be towed. I decided to wait for a passing car. A while later some people rode up on two horses. I stopped them. The fellows seemed to know me. They were hurrying to the plant. With great reluctance they gave us the horses.

While we rode another plan took shape: burn the corpses. But nobody knew how to do it. Polushin seems to have said they already knew that because nobody really knew how it would come out. I was still considering the mines on the Moscow high road and then transportation. I decided to get carts. The plan came to me at the thought of failure in burying them in groups in different places. The road leading to Koptyaki is clay near that gully. If we buried them there without onlookers, not even the devil would find them. To bury them and to drive by with the string of carts would result in a mishmash and that would be that. So there were three plans. There was nothing to drive, there was no car. I went to the head of the military transportation garage to find out if there were any cars. There was a car, but it was the chief's. I forgot his surname; it turned out he was a scoundrel and, it seems, he was executed in Perm. Comrade Pavel Petrovich Gorbunov, who is now deputy chairman of the state bank, was the manager of the garage or deputy chairman of military transportation. I do not remember which. I told him I needed a car urgently. He said "I know what for." He gave me the chairman's car. I drove to Voikov, head of supply in the Urals, to get petrol or kerosene, sulphuric acid too (to disfigure the faces) and, besides that, spades. I commandeered ten carts without drivers from the prison. Everything was loaded on and we drove off. The truck was sent there. I stayed to wait for Polushin, the main "specialist" in burning who had disappeared somewhere. I waited for him at Voikov's. I waited for him in vain until 11 p.m. Then I heard he had ridden off on horseback to come to me but he fell off the horse, hurt his foot, and he could not ride. Since we could not afford to get stuck with the car again, I rode off on horseback about midnight with a comrade (I don't remember who) to the place the corpses were. But I also had back luck. The horse hesitated, dropped to its knees and somehow fell on its side and come down on my foot. I lay there an hour or more until I could get on the horse again. We arrived late at night. The work extracting [the corpses] was going on. I decided to bury some corpses on the road. We began to dig a pit. At dawn it was almost ready, but a comrade came to me and said that despite the order not to let anybody come near, a man acquainted with Yermakov had appeared from somewhere and had been allowed to stay at a distance. From there it was possible to see some kind of digging because there were heaps of clay everywhere. Though Yermakov guaranteed that he could not see anything, another Comrade (not the one who had spoken to me) began to demonstrate that from where he had stood it was impossible not to see.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Cornholio on February 11, 2007, 07:01:11 PM
To answer the question, most likely no. Anyway, the person you are referring to, Anna Andersen, was proven by DNA tests not to be Anastasia, but to be the person she was suspected of being, Polish factory worker Franziska Schanskowska. The DNA matched Schanskowska's nephew and did not match the royal family. So even IF Anastasia survived, she was NOT Anna Andersen/Anastasia Manahan. That person was a fraud. You can safely rule her out!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Kurt Steiner on February 12, 2007, 03:24:02 AM
Of course nobody survived the Ipatiev massacre, that's not the point. But I find tragical those deaths and I would like that they did not happen.

Of course, sometimes I wonder why not avoiding Franz Ferdinand's fatal fate -let's no go futher back, even to Mayerling ;D- and getting rid of the Great War...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Lemur on February 12, 2007, 09:29:15 AM
No, Anastasia died with her family. She was not Anna A. Don't believe it when people say they DNA was switched or wrong. It was right and tells the truth.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Kurt Steiner on February 13, 2007, 03:30:14 AM
No, Anastasia died with her family. She was not Anna A. Don't believe it when people say they DNA was switched or wrong. It was right and tells the truth.

I fully agree. I find very frustrating those who deny the DNA tests. What do they need? God thundering from above?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Jarian on February 13, 2007, 06:00:39 PM
i agree we waited for to long
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to long!!!!!! :P
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Jarian on February 17, 2007, 05:18:57 PM
well that would be correct

but i do think there were eye witnesses!
YES I think if more than one eyewitness says the same thing it would be proof!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on February 17, 2007, 06:52:17 PM
 If Alexei's body was found it would have shown proof to claim if Yurosvky was right about shooting him in the head and leg. If Alexei's body was found we would have had proof if he was right or not. Without his body you have no evidence to support Yurosvky's claim about him shooting his head. Yes I do not believe there was eyewitnesses but, I don't known what exactly was going on that day about 89 years ago, on Wednesday, July 17,1918. Who knows what happen all these years there are probably lots of things that happened on that day that we did not even known.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 17, 2007, 08:31:51 PM
 Proof is physical evidence.  All else is professional conjecture. It is most likely that the lad died in the manners described,  not likely of an escape but without the body, it is still assumption.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Jarian on February 17, 2007, 09:55:08 PM
Oh I get it now I was think like more than one person seeing proof!
Just like the proof on one of the skulls there is a bullet entry in the back of the head (Which in my opinain think it is Maria)
Ok back to topic ;D
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Danka on February 20, 2007, 10:45:01 PM
isn't there a book about this whole "Alexei is alive" thing? "HE" is supposed to be the author of the book. heh. I mean, I'm not saying he's the one, but I think the book is no longer in print. Anyone else come across this? Correct me if i'm wrong.  ???
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 21, 2007, 04:09:12 PM
It hard to know were he got shot, since his body is missing (for 88 years, possibly gone by now, one as the grass and dirt) and that of many sources, say "shot in head twice", "Shot three times", etc and not every book I have read give the same detail.

But a boy like Alexei with his illness, doubt he lived being shot at in the head or not (or other limbs) that boy couldn't have not survived.

Poor Alexei, being put in a historical drama and paying the price with his life because of his parents.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: grandduchess_42 on February 25, 2007, 09:13:40 AM
i know... i think its IMPOSSIBLE!
scientificaly impossible for a boy at that age and have a life threatening
disease like that and lived.
its just  no humanly possible.

but i do wonder where the body went.
maybe it just broke down after the acid pouring.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Natasya on February 25, 2007, 02:15:30 PM
That's what I think is a possibility. Alexei was frail anyway, and the youngest, so his bones would be the smallest, and more likely to break down.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: grandduchess_42 on February 25, 2007, 06:54:45 PM
yeah thats what i always thought would happen
but i'm not a "bone" doctor. so i don't really know what happens! :-\
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: skitzo12 on February 27, 2007, 05:01:37 AM
by his age (nearly 14) he would have had fairly strong bones, if he was 8 or 9 that would be more realistic, but at that age, bones are quite strong, even for someone whom might not be full strength.
anyway, wasn't he nearly as tall as his father, as such im sure his remains would probably remain.
anyway, the fact remains, a hemopheliac is unlikely to survive gunshots, especially to the head, as for not trusting the accounts, not that suprising, the communist's were horrible liars.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Alixz on February 28, 2007, 10:25:40 PM
From the pictures that I have seen, Alexis was growing tall for age 14.  Boys grow more slowly than girls, but begin to get their height in their mid teens.

I always thought that the accounts of Alexis surviving the first volley and then being "finished" off by Yurovsky were odd in themselves. Or ironic.  Nicholas and Alexandra died in the first volley, but their sick and hemophiliac son survived and had to be shot again (maybe more than once) just to be sure.

Almost karmic   :-\
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: James1941 on March 01, 2007, 10:05:06 AM
This is not so strange if we accept the several accounts the shooters have left us. All, of course, depends on this acceptance. Did they tell the truth? That is and has been debated. It would seem, that although each shooter had been assigned a specific target to aim at and shoot first, when the shooting began almost all of them wanted the "honor?" of being the first to shoot and kill the hated tsar and tsarina. Therefore all the shooters aim their pistols at the face of Nicholas and Alexandra, who died almost immediately. Thus, in most accounts, all the others in the room were either not hit at first or were only slightly wounded. Thus the shooters had to go around and try to kill them. In the light of this it is not so strange that Alexis wasn't killed immediately and had to be "dispatched" later.

And I agree with Alixz about Alexei's height. Since Nicholas II was only about 5ft 7in tall it wouldn't have taken the boy long to match his father in height. In fact I think that he had grown as tall as Nicholas was mentioned in one of the letters or diaries of the family in Tobolsk. There is a picture of the tsar and the heir sawing wood in the courtyard and Alexis is pretty equal to his father's height.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: skitzo12 on March 02, 2007, 03:51:14 AM
they would have aimed for the adults first, that and if he is sitting, they are standing, even if he is tall it's not unlikely he would have survived, even if for a few minutes at most, the unfortunate likely hood is that  second volley was quite possible, even as more of a precaution.
even from a more scientific veiwpoint, the noises may have been bodily reactions to a sudden death.
it's know for the body to release air and so on (exhale) after death, the jumpy guards may have mistaken that for signs of life.
as unpleasent as the whole matter is...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Kurt Steiner on March 03, 2007, 03:31:07 AM
even from a more scientific veiwpoint, the noises may have been bodily reactions to a sudden death.
it's know for the body to release air and so on (exhale) after death, the jumpy guards may have mistaken that for signs of life.
as unpleasent as the whole matter is...

Murdering is neither an easy task, and the killers woold be rather nervous, so it's not strange if they saw anything that wasn't there.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 03, 2007, 03:36:36 AM
Death is a natural process.  Unless blown to bits, a body will go through convulsions. This could be spooky to some. Espcially to those doing the killing, I would think.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: tatianolishka_ on March 03, 2007, 09:38:29 AM
Well, here's what I think:

If Alexei was shot in the head, there is a chance he would have lived. BUT he would have bled to death. But all of that depends on where the bullet entered and the angle it was shot. If it entered around his ear, yeah, he'd probably be dead.  If it was lower down, perhaps alive. But with no medical attention he's dead. Now, the theories of survival include: Yurovsky lying, blanks fired instead of bullets, switched with someone, not there, etc. Though the accounts say Alexei was there, so we can rule out Yurovsky lying and Not there. Switching with someone would be pretty difficult, even with Sednev (who was two years younger than Alexei). So that's in the garbage. Blanks fired instead of bullets?

Once again, I don't know for certain. I just watch a lot of medical shows involving gunshot wounds.  :)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: grandduchess_42 on March 03, 2007, 09:52:49 PM
yes i agree!!!
and remember there were boyonettes, along with being shot in the head, shot everwhere else, and stabbed!
i highley doubt that a boy at his age with hemophellia (sp) could have survived that!

true, the gaurds were probably to scared to notice anything, but that doesn't explain the missing body!
i mean... if the body did fall out of the truck, and it was mine was dug up 3 days after
the body wasn't completely decomposed of yet? so they must have seen some bones or somthing.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Zanthia on March 05, 2007, 03:51:17 AM
By the way, only they had guilt in their dying agony.

I'm not sure I understand that phrase. What does it mean exactly?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: skitzo12 on March 05, 2007, 05:34:46 PM
yes i agree!!!
and remember there were boyonettes, along with being shot in the head, shot everwhere else, and stabbed!
i highley doubt that a boy at his age with hemophellia (sp) could have survived that!

true, the gaurds were probably to scared to notice anything, but that doesn't explain the missing body!
i mean... if the body did fall out of the truck, and it was mine was dug up 3 days after
the body wasn't completely decomposed of yet? so they must have seen some bones or somthing.

didn't they bury the corpse in a different part?

something abouth trying to get rid of the body by using acid, but it failed

which if buried elsewhere, even with acid on it, the bones may have broken down faster, thus making it harder to find.

who knows, as i already said, the communist are not exactly known for being particuarly kind or thruthful.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: grandduchess_42 on March 05, 2007, 08:49:54 PM
what i've heard was

that they killed the IF and stripped them, and then threw them down a mine shaft
that didn't work, so they threw acid on them, didn't work, and i think they buried them somewhere

i don't know if that is how the story goes lol! (excuse computer slang)

but im quite certain that they might have noticed bones disembodied parts!
i mean no matter how bad the conidition!
i mean obviously the acid didn't work.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: tatianolishka_ on March 08, 2007, 05:22:43 PM
Maybe this should be moved to another thread? It's getting more and more about the bones and the deaths and such.  :)
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: grandduchess_42 on March 10, 2007, 08:35:22 AM
Yes i agree!!
i'll PM one of the administrators to move it!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: dunya on March 15, 2007, 06:16:21 PM
I dont undersatnd it. If anyone could survived that night, it would have been someone else than alexey. Even if Yurovsky hadnt shot him, which we know he had, Alexey's bleeding must have been fatal for him. He had hemophiliac for gods sake.
I always thought that the accounts of Alexis surviving the first volley and then being "finished" off by Yurovsky were odd in themselves. Or ironic.  Nicholas and Alexandra died in the first volley, but their sick and hemophiliac son survived and had to be shot again (maybe more than once) just to be sure.


And about that, everyone was aiming at the Tsar to be the ''one'' who killed the mihghty tsar, so its not extraordinary that Alexey and Anastasia ( and the dog as I know it) where ''finished off'' afterwards.( when they ran out of  bullets sadly)

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Kurt Steiner on March 16, 2007, 04:11:46 AM
We shouldn't forget that, after shooting at the IF, the murderers used the bayonets to stab them. I doubt very much that someone could "resist" the temptation to stab Alexei. So, if the bullet didn't kill him, the bayonets would do it.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Masters on March 16, 2007, 10:38:37 AM
It has always baffeled me that all these supposed survivors and decendants keep fighting over who is or is not truly in line for a throne that has not existed for almost 100 years.  I attended Oxford University with Michael Romanov's Great Grand Daughter and she never once mentioned that she was involved in all this mayhem.

I will not reveal her name for her privacy, but she "is" a true direct decendant.  When we were at Oxford together, as she used to show me pictures of her Grandmother with her parents Michael and Natalia.  And pictures of her and her Grandmother and the rest of the family.  She also showed me the Order of Saint Catherine that Her Great Grand Mother received when she was Baptized and then gave it to her when she Baptized in the Russian Orthodox Church.

It is my understanding that only true Romanov female decendants were given this Medal at the time of their Baptism.  If this is true, then I guess my question is, why all the fighting from the under-relatives when there is still a direct family member still alive?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 16, 2007, 02:07:21 PM
When we were at Oxford together, as she used to show me pictures of her Grandmother with her parents Michael and Natalia.  

I don't think that Natalia's daughter was Michael's biological daughter, she was the child of Natalia's ex-husband, Wolfert. Therefore your friend from Oxford is not really Michael's "true direct descendant"... Michael and Natalia had a son together, who I believe died without any children of his own, therefore Michael has no true direct descendants...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Masters on March 17, 2007, 12:17:38 AM
I am speaking of the first child that Michael and Natalia had.  It was a Girl and she was named Nicolina after Nicholas II to make amends between the brothers because Nicholas was not thrilled with and would not accept the marriage of his brother to Natalia....so to answer your comment, yes..... she is a direct decendant, she is Michael and Natalia's Great Grand Daughter.  And to make it official, she has the Birth Records to prove it!

Natalia while escaping from Russia left Nicolina in a Monestary because she thought she would be safe there under the care of the Tikon himself.  Natalia never came back for Nicolina who was left with nothing more than the clothes on her back, a small box containing her papers, her Order of St Catherines Medal, A beautiful Emerald and Diamond Necklace, earrings and a huge Emerald/Diamond ring...which I have seen and they are stunning.  They were left to ensure her safe keeping and were sent with her when she left the Monestary.

I do not know what your knowledge is of that family is other than what you may have read in books, most of which were written by people who weren't even alive then, but I can assure you that she is the real deal...."papers" and all!

And from the apparent anger in your reply, I am beginning to understand why she has kept silent all these years.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 17, 2007, 07:36:51 AM
Odd that no biography or genealogy mentions such a daughter. And, Imperial Russian orders were not inherited. If one was given one at baptism, it stayed with that person until death.  It would have had to be given anew to any others.
 Hostility? I think not. Just facts.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 17, 2007, 09:53:11 AM
And from the apparent anger in your reply...

Huh  ???
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Masters on March 17, 2007, 10:42:22 AM
The Order of St. Catherine was give to Nicolina at her baptism and then before she died, she gave it to her grandaughter, my friend.  A "Fact" that none of the supposed know-it-alls that frequent this site, would have been privy to.

Another "fact" that I know you are unaware of, is that she, my friend, was also at the final burial ceremony of the Royal family and was "Acknowledged" by the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church as who she is. 

They know!  They have always known.  It was always thought best that it not be made public with all the killings that had gone on and all the bickering that continues...who is to know if anyone is safe, even to this day!

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Penny_Wilson on March 17, 2007, 11:26:50 AM
Masters,

In what year was Nicolina born?

~Penny
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Masters on March 17, 2007, 11:40:18 AM
sorry to say, I don't think we ever discussed that, so I really don't know.......It's not like sat and had a singular long drawn out conversation of her life and family. 

One of the reasons we remained friends for so long, is that I was the only one at the Univeristy who didn't care what her background was, alothough there were others who wanted to be her firend just because of it.

We spoke many times overs the years and things would come up in conversation here and there as it does with anyone's family I suppose.  But the one thing I can say about her is that, even with the knowledge she had, of who she is, she was one of the most gracious and kind person I have ever had the good fortune to be friends with.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 17, 2007, 12:29:01 PM
How charming, Masters, that you alone are privy to this most arcane information.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Masters on March 17, 2007, 01:14:40 PM
Just because I went to Oxford, does not mean you have to put out your dictionary, every time you wish to "try" and impress someone.

And for the record, I am "not" the only one privy to this information, but consider myself fortunate to be. 

As for the rest, the people who truly needed and need to know, already do.  Which is why and how my friend inherited her fortune and lives quite well to this day, far from the arguing, self proclaimed heirs and relatives, who instead of living their lives as she does with great joy I might add, instead are constantly looking for something they will never obtain, as they slowly creep toward an unfulfilled end to their miserable lives.

Pity I think....don't you!
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 17, 2007, 01:18:57 PM
I can think of many words to fit this situation. Pity is not one of them.  May I ask what the reason is/was for thie secrecy of this claim?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Masters on March 17, 2007, 01:46:22 PM
There is no secrecy....she is acknowledged by the Russian Orthodox Church as Michaels Great Granddaughter. They were the ones who had held Nicolina's inheritance in trust and upon Nicolina's death, she inherited what was left, which for the sake of modesty and from what I know her to have, had to have been quite a hefty sum.  When this transpired, she made it very clear that she had no further interest in being involved the feeding frenzy that has been going on since her Grandmother was a child.

She loved her Grandmother very much and was very proud of whom she was and all  she went through to survive and become the lovely woman she was. 

But as far as the rest of them (and I say them because most of them have no proof) are concerned....to put it bluntly...she thinks their behavior embarrassing and is sickened whenever the thought crosses her mind.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 17, 2007, 02:04:41 PM
May I ask what the reason is/was for thie secrecy of this claim?

Maybe she wants to avoid the papparazzi (sp?)...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on March 17, 2007, 05:49:58 PM
Masters,

I can only assume that you are telling us  true stories  about your friend because I have no reason to doubt you. 

So,  since I am assuming what you've told us is true,  I am enjoying the story of your friend and find her attitude interesting.

The doubting-thomases   around here are leary of people who make claims  because they've had bad experiences with some real pranks who have landed  in this forum  from time to time.  And,  we've truely have had some interesting characters come and go since I've been around the last few years.  Even though this may explain their mocking tones toward your post and what you claim about your friend, I do not agree with their  tactics.   I'm sorry to say,  I  think  this is a no win coversation for you because they will not  stop  these abuses until they see proof and I don't think that is your intent.    Because, it appears to me that you were merely telling us a story about your friend and wanted to share it with others.   



AGRBear



Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Masters on March 17, 2007, 09:40:36 PM
Dear AGRBear:

I thank you for your kindness and heads-up regarding the "pack"....it is beyond me to think that the people who talk on this forum warrant any proof, as they are just neophytes when it comes to the Russian Church and the political influence it has had over the centuries.

Please understand that my information is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a story,  I have seen the pictures and papers and the jewels first hand which has proven everything she has ever told me.  I have to say though, that she never told me anything with an attitude of superiority, but more with a sense of humility.  She truly has the grace a descendant of a family so noble would possess.

She once told me a story her Grandmother told her, of how she, her mother, step sister and little brother had escaped the fate that befell the rest of the family.  As she told me what her grandmother described to her, she would cry at her bravery and at the same time, you could see an underlying pride in her eyes.

She told me that once they stood holding hands in her Grandmother's living room looking out over a newly fallen snow.  Although, she said it was beautiful, it made her Grandmother cry.  She said the next morning she woke to find her Grandmother in her usual routine, making the bread she had seen her make many times before.

She saw her Grandmother cross herself and kneel before the table as usual, but that when she started to knead the bread, she all of a sudden started to beat it with an anger she had never seen before and it frightened her.  When she called to her, her Grandmother didn't answer at first but then realizing she was there, stopped pounding the table of dough, keeled again in front of the table and embraced her. 

She told me her Grandmother held her so tight, she thought she would never let go, but instead she rocked my friend in her lap and told her how lucky she was that she would never have to face the horrors she went through and how happy she was to be her Grandma.

My friend said that her Grandmother didn't tell her then but years later when she was older and could understand, just what the four of them went through, when they fled and the nightmares her mother (Natalia) would have and the horror and fear she would see in her eyes when she awoke.  She said she would scream in her sleep and wake up shaking and rock in her bed, or what was used for a bed.  And that all the while telling the tale, she said her Grandmother always had this far off look in her eyes, as though she was re-living those things all over again.

I was always of the opinion that these were not stories at all, as when they were told to me, they included such detail as to warrant merit in their telling.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on March 19, 2007, 04:07:27 PM
It is in these sstories that we learn the horror and ugliness endured under the Bolsheviks/ communists.

These stories should be told and retold so the new generations can understand what happens when a country gives in to people who's  quest is to gain absolute power and have no intentions of having a government for the people and by the people.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on March 19, 2007, 04:39:43 PM
Bear?

You believe in the Easter Bunny, don't you?

And did I miss the moment where Tsarist Russia was on the verge of dedicating itself to the ideals of Abraham Lincoln?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Binky on March 19, 2007, 04:42:19 PM
It is in these sstories that we learn the horror and ugliness endured under the Bolsheviks/ communists.

These stories should be told and retold so the new generations can understand what happens when a country gives in to people who's  quest is to gain absolute power and have no intentions of having a government for the people and by the people.

AGRBear

Oh AGRBear you are so right.  Stuff should just be told over and over and over and over.  It really makes people pay attention to what you are saying.  Sometimes it helps to say it right after you already said it.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Louis_Charles on March 19, 2007, 04:43:08 PM
It is in these sstories that we learn the horror and ugliness endured under the Bolsheviks/ communists.

These stories should be told and retold so the new generations can understand what happens when a country gives in to people who's  quest is to gain absolute power and have no intentions of having a government for the people and by the people.

AGRBear

Oh AGRBear you are so right.  Stuff should just be told over and over and over and over.  It really makes people pay attention to what you are saying.  Sometimes it helps to say it right after you already said it.

Binky, just for you.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Binky on March 19, 2007, 04:46:51 PM
It is in these sstories that we learn the horror and ugliness endured under the Bolsheviks/ communists.

These stories should be told and retold so the new generations can understand what happens when a country gives in to people who's  quest is to gain absolute power and have no intentions of having a government for the people and by the people.

AGRBear

Oh AGRBear you are so right.  Stuff should just be told over and over and over and over.  It really makes people pay attention to what you are saying.  Sometimes it helps to say it right after you already said it.

Binky, just for you.

Thanks Mr. Charles. I just learned how to use the quote thing today and it makes it a whole lot easier to say stuff over.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: RichC on March 19, 2007, 05:04:18 PM
For AGRBear and Binky!

The same stories should be told and retold constantly.


Dear AGRBear:

I thank you for your kindness and heads-up regarding the "pack"....it is beyond me to think that the people who talk on this forum warrant any proof, as they are just neophytes when it comes to the Russian Church and the political influence it has had over the centuries.

Please understand that my information is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a story,  I have seen the pictures and papers and the jewels first hand which has proven everything she has ever told me.  I have to say though, that she never told me anything with an attitude of superiority, but more with a sense of humility.  She truly has the grace a descendant of a family so noble would possess.

She once told me a story her Grandmother told her, of how she, her mother, step sister and little brother had escaped the fate that befell the rest of the family.  As she told me what her grandmother described to her, she would cry at her bravery and at the same time, you could see an underlying pride in her eyes.

She told me that once they stood holding hands in her Grandmother's living room looking out over a newly fallen snow.  Although, she said it was beautiful, it made her Grandmother cry.  She said the next morning she woke to find her Grandmother in her usual routine, making the bread she had seen her make many times before.

She saw her Grandmother cross herself and kneel before the table as usual, but that when she started to knead the bread, she all of a sudden started to beat it with an anger she had never seen before and it frightened her.  When she called to her, her Grandmother didn't answer at first but then realizing she was there, stopped pounding the table of dough, keeled again in front of the table and embraced her. 

She told me her Grandmother held her so tight, she thought she would never let go, but instead she rocked my friend in her lap and told her how lucky she was that she would never have to face the horrors she went through and how happy she was to be her Grandma.

My friend said that her Grandmother didn't tell her then but years later when she was older and could understand, just what the four of them went through, when they fled and the nightmares her mother (Natalia) would have and the horror and fear she would see in her eyes when she awoke.  She said she would scream in her sleep and wake up shaking and rock in her bed, or what was used for a bed.  And that all the while telling the tale, she said her Grandmother always had this far off look in her eyes, as though she was re-living those things all over again.

I was always of the opinion that these were not stories at all, as when they were told to me, they included such detail as to warrant merit in their telling.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 19, 2007, 05:13:30 PM
For AGRBear and Binky!

The same stories should be told and retold constantly.


Dear AGRBear:

I thank you for your kindness and heads-up regarding the "pack"....it is beyond me to think that the people who talk on this forum warrant any proof, as they are just neophytes when it comes to the Russian Church and the political influence it has had over the centuries.

Please understand that my information is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a story,  I have seen the pictures and papers and the jewels first hand which has proven everything she has ever told me.  I have to say though, that she never told me anything with an attitude of superiority, but more with a sense of humility.  She truly has the grace a descendant of a family so noble would possess.

She once told me a story her Grandmother told her, of how she, her mother, step sister and little brother had escaped the fate that befell the rest of the family.  As she told me what her grandmother described to her, she would cry at her bravery and at the same time, you could see an underlying pride in her eyes.

She told me that once they stood holding hands in her Grandmother's living room looking out over a newly fallen snow.  Although, she said it was beautiful, it made her Grandmother cry.  She said the next morning she woke to find her Grandmother in her usual routine, making the bread she had seen her make many times before.

She saw her Grandmother cross herself and kneel before the table as usual, but that when she started to knead the bread, she all of a sudden started to beat it with an anger she had never seen before and it frightened her.  When she called to her, her Grandmother didn't answer at first but then realizing she was there, stopped pounding the table of dough, keeled again in front of the table and embraced her. 

She told me her Grandmother held her so tight, she thought she would never let go, but instead she rocked my friend in her lap and told her how lucky she was that she would never have to face the horrors she went through and how happy she was to be her Grandma.

My friend said that her Grandmother didn't tell her then but years later when she was older and could understand, just what the four of them went through, when they fled and the nightmares her mother (Natalia) would have and the horror and fear she would see in her eyes when she awoke.  She said she would scream in her sleep and wake up shaking and rock in her bed, or what was used for a bed.  And that all the while telling the tale, she said her Grandmother always had this far off look in her eyes, as though she was re-living those things all over again.

I was always of the opinion that these were not stories at all, as when they were told to me, they included such detail as to warrant merit in their telling.



Absolutely!

It has always baffeled me that all these supposed survivors and decendants keep fighting over who is or is not truly in line for a throne that has not existed for almost 100 years.  I attended Oxford University with Michael Romanov's Great Grand Daughter and she never once mentioned that she was involved in all this mayhem.

I will not reveal her name for her privacy, but she "is" a true direct decendant.  When we were at Oxford together, as she used to show me pictures of her Grandmother with her parents Michael and Natalia.  And pictures of her and her Grandmother and the rest of the family.  She also showed me the Order of Saint Catherine that Her Great Grand Mother received when she was Baptized and then gave it to her when she Baptized in the Russian Orthodox Church.

It is my understanding that only true Romanov female decendants were given this Medal at the time of their Baptism.  If this is true, then I guess my question is, why all the fighting from the under-relatives when there is still a direct family member still alive?
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Penny_Wilson on March 19, 2007, 09:17:51 PM
I've been trying to figure out where this woman fits in the story of Michael and Natasha -- but she seems not to fit anywhere.  Off the top of my head -- so my dates might be slightly wrong -- Natasha and Michael met in 1908.  Their son George was born in 1910, and his birth was not hidden or otherwise shrouded in secrecy.  Masters mentioned that George was Nicolina's "little brother," which means Nicolina would had to have been born sometime in the year-and-a-half or two years between M&N meeting and George's birth.  I haven't had time to consult the Crawford's book, but perhaps someone could -- and let us know what M&N were up to in those years?

I do believe that Nicholas and Michael remained on good terms until the time of M&N's marriage, which was in 1912.  I suppose their relationship may have been strained because of Michael's affair with the wife of a brother officer and all the attendant scandal -- but there really seems to have been no serious breach until 1912, and so no need to name "Nicolina" to please NII. 

Also -- by the time Countess Brassova died, she was terribly, terribly impoverished.  REALLY poor.  There could have been no legacy of any size left for anyone anywhere.

Now, Natasha's daughter from her first marriage, Tata Mamontov, married (I think) three times.  She had two daughters only: Pauline Grey and Alexandra Majolier.  George Brassov, of course, died tragically young in a motoring accident in France in 1931.  Nothing about this family seems to have been hidden or secreted away -- so why was the existence of this "Nicolina" hidden?

I'd really like to hear more about the story, but its veracity seems unlikely at this point.  Perhaps a letter to the Grey/Majolier connections would answer some of these questions and clarify this situation for you, Masters.

Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Masters on March 20, 2007, 02:41:47 AM
Dear Penny:

The jewels and inheritance came from her father, Michael and were left entrusted to the Russian Orthodox Church. 

It was not something Natalia was able to have access to.  Remember the Tikhon himself was the family priest and was entrusted with Nicolina's well being. 

Michael is the one that had directed Natalia to leave Nicolina behind at the Monastery.  As it was told to me, Michael and Natalia were allowed to see each other, one last time, before they let her go.  Now whether the information/arrangements Michael made with the Tikhon, were imparted to Natalia on that last fateful night or before they were imprisoned, is beyond my knowledge. 

I only know bits and pieces of the entire story, from what I was told by my friend.  And I truly do not believe that she or her Grandmother ever knew the whole story of what happened to everyone else either, and they are the ones who lived it.

In the same way that you and I do not know the day to day events in the lives of our own families, all relatives considered.

What Natalia did after she left Nicolina behind, is not something she ever knew about and ending up in the condition she did upon her death is a dreadful shame, but again, it has nothing to do with Nicolina or her fortune, which was passed on to my friend, upon her Grandmother's death.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Masters on March 20, 2007, 02:49:18 AM
In addition Penny, you all must realized that the dates we have been fed from day one, even unto the actual deaths of the Tsar and his family has changed almost day to day.  In every country including America, we are fed and you will excuse the expression, a "pile" of bologna when it comes to dates and times and who did what to whom.  Perfect example is the death of Geroge Washington.

It was not taught in the schools or in many history books, but the fact that Georgie biy died in bed with a whore in a brothel, is not something the government likes to have out there as public knowledge, so it is very hard for me to believe all the "exact dates" that have been put out there.  Again, we are talking almost 100 years ago.  I wasn't there, and I know that one else that is alive today was there either!  SO how can any of us truly be sure.

Just food for thought...
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Binky on March 20, 2007, 05:58:25 AM
Youre' so right Masters.  I think almost everything in history is made up by people who have this really big conspiracy to fool us.  I'm glad there are people like you who know the truth and will tell it to us though because we wouldn't know what really happened.  You could get really famous with everything you know so I think you should write some books.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Binky on March 20, 2007, 06:11:51 AM
This stuff is all very interesting.  I think its really important that we know all dabout those murders because they must of suffered so much and we can't understand Russia history when we don't know how they were all killed.  I wonder who had to clean up that room because when I drop eggs on the floor its' really hard to get it up without going everywhere and I bet brains and blood all mixed up wiggled more and was a whole lot messier.  I heard Catherine the Great fell off her toilet when she died.  I bet that was a big mess too and some servant had to clean it up and Alexander II bled all over the stairs and furniture when his leg was hanging off.  Russian history is real interesting in how they all died.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: J_Kendrick on March 20, 2007, 10:34:26 AM
We shouldn't forget that, after shooting at the IF, the murderers used the bayonets to stab them. I doubt very much that someone could "resist" the temptation to stab Alexei. So, if the bullet didn't kill him, the bayonets would do it.

Neither should we ever forget this most important of facts:

The only evidence that exists of those events in that half-cellar room at Ipatiev is the highly questionable testimony of the murderers themselves.

... and murderers throughout history have never been known for telling the truth.
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: Binky on March 20, 2007, 11:53:16 AM
That's right.  I bet it was all those people who say they were Anasatasia and Alexei who are all telling the truth not the murderers. 
Title: Re: Stories of Survivors of Ipatiev House Murder
Post by: AGRBear on March 20, 2007, 12:28:53 PM
I've been trying to figure out where this woman fits in the story of Michael and Natasha -- but she seems not to fit anywhere.  Off the top of my head -- so my dates might be slightly wrong -- Natasha and Michael met in 1908.  Their son George was born in 1910, and his birth was not hidden or otherwise shrouded in secrecy.  Masters mentioned that George was Nicolina's "little brother," which means Nicolina would had to have been born sometime in the year-and-a-half or two years between M&N meeting and George's birth.  I haven't had time to consult the Crawford's book, but perhaps someone could -- and let us know what M&N were up to in those years?

I do believe that Nicholas and Michael remained on good terms until the time of M&N's marriage, which was in 1912.  I suppose their relationship may have been strained because of Michael's affair with the wife of a brother officer and all the attendant scandal -- but there really seems to have been no serious breach until 1912, and so no need to name "Nicolina" to please NII. 

Also -- by the time Countess Brassova died, she was terribly, terribly impoverished.  REALLY poor.  There could have been no legacy of any size left for anyone anywhere.

Now, Natasha's daughter from her first marriage, Tata Mamontov, married (I think) three times.  She had two daughters only: Pauline Grey and Alexandra Majolier.  George Brassov, of course, died tragically young in a motoring accident in France in 1931.  Nothing about this family seems to have been hidden or secreted away -- so why was the existence of this "Nicolina" hidden?

I'd really like to hear more about the story, but its veracity seems unlikely at this point.  Perhaps a letter to the Grey/Majolier connections would answer some of these questions and clarify this situation for you, Masters.



Asking key questions is the real key to discover if Masters is telling us a true story about a real friend and Penny has asked some important questions.

Asking Bear if I believe in  Easter Bunnies is not very productive, and, has nothing what's  so ever to do with Masters or his / her  [?] friend and the information he / she&