Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Mediatized Noble Families => Topic started by: Rani on November 04, 2006, 02:12:45 PM

Title: Help with identification
Post by: Rani on November 04, 2006, 02:12:45 PM
Could anyone help me? In a website there was this photo under the name Princess Thurn and Taxis. But which Princess? Maybe Luise?

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/3248893.jpg)
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: Danjel on December 25, 2006, 02:06:20 PM
Can someone tell me who this bridal couple is? I've been told they are from the Castell-Castell family but that is all I know...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/daan73/1-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: bonbon823 on September 22, 2010, 05:44:18 PM
I have a problem that perhaps someone out there can help me (us) with.

In Redmond, Oregon, there was a lady who died in 1966.  Her name was Mrs. Gus Bray.  After she died it was revealed that she was Princess Helen Augusta Victoria Beatrice Bruckner von Gotha, born 1885 at Castle Liebenstein in Thuringen.  Her father was a Prince Oscar was supposedly related to Prince Albert (Q. Victoria's Albert).  She was known as Gertrude in the family, and she had even dined with Nicholas II's family.  She eventually met and married a Swiss-American by the name of Alfred Munz.  They made their way to Redmond where Mr. Munz had a hardware store.  She married Gus Bray in later years after Mr. Munz had died. 

My question is;  I haven't been able to find out any more information about Trude.  It is a legend here in Redmond.  Can someone shed some light on this?  How was she related to Prince Albert?  Was she really a Princess??  Or is this just a fable? 

Thanks for any help offered.

Bonnie
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: Marc on September 22, 2010, 11:19:09 PM
At that time(around 1885) Castle Liebenstein was part Court Chamber Forestry and the other part was home to several families who were renting the place from the royal Hofdomänenkammer...In 1884 there were 43 persons inhabiting the Castle but nobody of royal birth,just people who were working for them...

There is no such Princess in genealogy sites!
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: bonbon823 on September 23, 2010, 08:19:50 AM
That's what I was afraid of.  I had tried to do some genealogical research about her online and came up with nothing.  Oh dear!!
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: Marlene on September 24, 2010, 02:03:13 PM
Totally phony

I have a problem that perhaps someone out there can help me (us) with.

In Redmond, Oregon, there was a lady who died in 1966.  Her name was Mrs. Gus Bray.  After she died it was revealed that she was Princess Helen Augusta Victoria Beatrice Bruckner von Gotha, born 1885 at Castle Liebenstein in Thuringen.  Her father was a Prince Oscar was supposedly related to Prince Albert (Q. Victoria's Albert).  She was known as Gertrude in the family, and she had even dined with Nicholas II's family.  She eventually met and married a Swiss-American by the name of Alfred Munz.  They made their way to Redmond where Mr. Munz had a hardware store.  She married Gus Bray in later years after Mr. Munz had died. 

My question is;  I haven't been able to find out any more information about Trude.  It is a legend here in Redmond.  Can someone shed some light on this?  How was she related to Prince Albert?  Was she really a Princess??  Or is this just a fable? 

Thanks for any help offered.

Bonnie
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: bonbon823 on September 24, 2010, 05:01:39 PM
What will I tell the city of Redmond??
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: Marc on September 25, 2010, 03:35:57 PM
Maybe the truth about "Princess" Trude...
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: bonbon823 on September 25, 2010, 04:20:21 PM
I don't know if I SHOULD tell the truth, they may not believe me...
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: Marlene on October 06, 2010, 12:35:55 PM
Give them thefacts ... no such princess or title or family.

I don't know if I SHOULD tell the truth, they may not believe me...
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 09, 2010, 08:08:55 AM
Haha, this is so stupid and transparent:

After she died it was revealed that she was Princess Helen Augusta Victoria Beatrice Bruckner von Gotha, born 1885 at Castle Liebenstein in Thuringen.
It's as if a member of the British RF was called "Princess NN Bridgeman of England" instead of "NN Mountbatten-Windsor, Princess of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"!

BTW the name might be inspired by Dr. Karl August Friedrich Brückner (1769-1797), sometimes referred to as "Brückner von Gotha" and "Bruckner of Gotha", Court Physician in Gotha and an early expert on the healing of club feet! BTW I see that many Brückners have figured in the history of Gotha: E.g., Johann Georg Brückner was Consistorial Councillor and Supreme Court Preacher of the Duke of Saxe-Gotha in the first half of the 18th century, other Brückners were government secretaries and according to the memoirs of Duke Ernst II a Brückner was also President of the Diet.
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: bonbon823 on October 09, 2010, 10:32:20 PM
What I find interesting about this whole thing is that she insisted on her "identity" being revealed only after her death.  Why do you suppose she wanted that?  Obviously she wasn't a publicity seeker like Anna Anderson...
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on October 10, 2010, 11:23:12 AM
    Attention  "bonbon823" and Reply # 9:  IMO, I think that this matter has been conclusively settled from the lack of supporting research/facts turned up by very competent people, including yourself. End of story.  I've no idea why this individual wished to invent or perpetuate this delusion/illusion------perhaps to only give herself a sense of importance to compensate for an otherwise dull existence. We've seen examples here on this very board of "assumed royalty" and if you listen very carefully (as "they" all wish to talk), they reveal very important clues, statements, quotes, etc. about their "everyday" life, family, and personal struggles that point so vividly to why they pretend to be another.  For the most part, these people are NOT delusional; rather they flee from time to time to envelope themselves (even momentarily) in a fantasy world as an escape mechanism to fend off the vicissitudes of reality. Once a lie is begun, it's very hard to withdraw without "coming totally clean."  Thus the offender becomes either (1.) more defensive, with presenting a whirlwind of "fluff facts" gathered from elsewhere (usually they are voracious readers of the said subject) , or (2.) retreats into "regal" silence, thereby adding more "mystery."  Strangely enough, #2. can be quite effective to some "followers" of the person/s in question!  "He/she acted like a "true prince/princess and never stooped to enter an argument over his/her origins."  
    Two questions:  Does this woman in question have any descendants who can offer anything in "proof"?  And importantly, WHY, "bonbon823", are you specifically, placed in the position of needing to tell "the city of Redmond" anything?  (Are you a relative, reporter, etc.?)  Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 10, 2010, 03:55:20 PM
What I find interesting about this whole thing is that she insisted on her "identity" being revealed only after her death.  Why do you suppose she wanted that?

Did this come as a total "surprise" after her death or had she given some "hints"? In the latter case I am most likely to see it as attention seeking combined with playing a practical joke from beyond the grave, but in the former case, although I too think there is a 99 % chance it was some more or less harmless psychological disturbance, I think there might be the very remote possibility that she for example was an illegitimate scion of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. Wasn't for example Prince Albert's brother Duke Ernst II rumoured to have been not very faithful to his wife? Her "title" was evidently invented and not genuine, but perhaps she meant to indicate a belief in illegitimate descent from a ducal liaison with a Brückner / Bruckner? Perhaps she was just an illegitimate scion of the prominent civil servant Brückner family of Gotha (shipped off to America because of the scandal), didn't know the details and the name Gotha, which because of both the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and the Almanach de Gotha was the very incarnation of royalty back then, led her to believe she was related to the ducal dynasty?
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: bonbon823 on October 10, 2010, 05:08:04 PM
Well, "A.P", for your information I am the secretary of the Greater Redmond Historical Society and a volunteer at the local museum.  As such, I heard of the story from a fellow volunteer and long-time Redmond resident.  Since it is a local legend, I just wanted to know if it was true.  There is no need to get snippy about my interest in the subject; it no business of yours in any case.  And as you said, case closed.
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on October 10, 2010, 05:20:43 PM
Re Reply #12 and "bonbon823" :  Thank you for your most revealing, prompt and sensitive response!  I am delighted that you can apparently now report to your group that you have MOST LIKELY the "straight scoop", for which any good reporter strives!  Glad to be of help!  Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: bonbon823 on October 11, 2010, 07:43:16 AM
Thanks, Fyodor, for your insight.  And thanks everyone for your help.
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: Zukunftsseele on April 04, 2012, 04:53:37 AM
Does anyone know who this man is? A suggestion by a friend was Emanuel of Salm-Salm but I have my doubts.
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/zukunftsseele/6875674538_3738408810_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: mardam on April 06, 2012, 03:42:02 PM
Could be Max of Baden.
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: Marc on May 10, 2013, 07:51:15 AM
Does anyone know who this Princess Radziwill could be?

It is painted by the French painter Charles Chaplin in 1890 and the portrait is now hanging in the modern gallery in Palazzo Pitti in Florence...

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/Album%201/PrincessRad_zps6a86b7eb.png) (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/auersperg21/media/Album%201/PrincessRad_zps6a86b7eb.png.html)
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: grandduchessella on May 10, 2013, 10:47:47 PM
The infamous Catherine Radziwill? She would've been about 32 in 1890.

It would've been a bit of a racy choice for a portrait painter. Chaplin was known for his nudes (some of them very lovely) but also some very erotic drawings such as Woman Performing Fellatio (which looked straight out of Penthouse!).

Some images of Catherine:

(http://historicalmedia.co.za/Images/Katherine.jpg)

(http://www.pseudology.org/Poland/images/catherine_radziwill.JPG)

(http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1537123&t=w)
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: Marc on May 11, 2013, 03:24:12 AM
With that half-smile,it really could have been her...She was also painted by Giovanni Boldini,whose portraits also hang in modern gallery in Palazzo Pitti...
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: Marc on June 03, 2013, 06:39:54 AM
Portrait of Princess Lobkowicz,painted between 1865 and 1901:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/Album%201/Lobk_zps9af6802d.jpg) (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/auersperg21/media/Album%201/Lobk_zps9af6802d.jpg.html)

Anyone know who could it be?

Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: DNAgenie on June 03, 2013, 06:41:48 PM
The Princess Radziwill shown above has a narrow face, small eyes and a small mouth, whereas Princess Catherine Radziwill has a stronger, broader face, large eyes and large mouth.  I don't think it is the same woman. Now I will have to go hunting for possible alternatives for the Princess.
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: Marc on June 04, 2013, 05:51:51 AM
If you find anything interesting,please post...

Bare in mind that there was always so called "painter's freedom" to paint people as he/she sees them,sometimes not the way they really looked...
Title: Re: Help with identification
Post by: Marc on July 01, 2013, 06:17:54 AM
Portrait of Princess Lobkowicz,painted between 1865 and 1901:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/Album%201/Lobk_zps9af6802d.jpg) (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/auersperg21/media/Album%201/Lobk_zps9af6802d.jpg.html)

Anyone know who could it be?



Painted by Brožík Václav,the painter who painted Countess Karoline,sister of Sophie Chotek...