Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Cornholio on January 05, 2007, 02:56:33 PM

Title: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Cornholio on January 05, 2007, 02:56:33 PM
Anastasia was not a cartoon character. She was a real girl with a real face, a real mind and a real life. She died tragically at only 17 in a brutal way. She should be remembered with sadness and respect. The way I see it, the stories of Anna Andersen being Anastasia, and living a long life, and ending up the way she did, is a discredit to the life and memory of the real Anastasia. A girl who should be rememered sadly, and honored as a Holy Martyr, is now in a way a joke because of Anna Andersen and her false claim. To think that there are still those to this day who believe that Anna Andersen was Anastasia is a sad disgrace to the real life of a murdered girl. Can't we have more respect for a real person than to pretend she lived as somebody else? This is how I feel. Do you agree? :-[
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on January 05, 2007, 03:50:16 PM
Whatever her (possibly) many faults Anna Anderson wasn't a cartoon character either.  Anastasia wasn't a martyr, she was a murder victim & the two things are not identical. 

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Cornholio on January 05, 2007, 03:55:34 PM
I didn't mean that Andersen was a cartoon, I was talking about the Anastasia cartoon, though it was most probably Andersen that gave them the idea for the cartoon.

I also know that Andersen was a person with feelings too and as long as we can speak of them as two separate people and not one n the same that is ok. I only feel it is wrong to act like Andersen really was Anastasia alive because the real Anastasia died so horribly and we need to have reverance for that fact.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Holly on January 05, 2007, 03:58:17 PM
I feel the exact same way, Cornholio.
Phil, Cornholio never said Anna Anderson was a cartoon character... and to many people, Anastasia IS a martyr. She is now a martyr in the Russian Orthodox church as are the rest of her family. You may not see NAOTMAA that way, but many people do. I've always felt that people who believe such a crazed woman such as Anna Anderson could be Anastasia, were being disrespectful to the real Anastasia's memory. Anna was mentally ill and I feel sorry that she had to live a lie for so long. I hope that soon, Anastasia's remains will be found for sure and then she can be remembered for who she really was; a lively and promising young girl whose life was tragically cut short just because she held the last name of Romanova.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on January 05, 2007, 04:27:26 PM
Anastasia and "Anna Anderson" are only "jokes" if you treat them as jokes.  I've written about both, and have treated neither that way.  And I fail to see how bypassing "Anna Anderson" accords Anastasia greater respect.  Both are dead and belong to history; both are fair game for books, articles and discussions.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: imperial angel on January 06, 2007, 03:16:04 PM
I think that it is unfortunate that the name of Anastasia is associated with Anna Anderson. It has made her the most famous of the Romanov girls, so her name lives on. But, I agree that her name might live on in a bad way. I think lots of people not very familiar with the Romanovs throw her name around, and perhaps think she was Anna Anderson, if they are not very informed. Anna Anderson wasn't the only Anastasia impostor, since there were lots of those. But although impostors are inevitable, Anna Anderson was worse than most. I think Anastasia herself would not have been saddened by it, at least at the age she died, she might have been surprised or even amused, by the impact Anna Anderson had on her memory. I feel though, that it does cheapen Anastasia, by making her into something of a cultural figure, but one wholly misunderstood unless you know something about history.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on January 06, 2007, 05:56:52 PM
      I think Anna Andersion lied to everyone including the royal and imperial families just to get attention and probaly money. She was not Anastasia she was a imposter.That woman was a poor pesant. She do not even look similar to Anatasia at all. In movies about her they make Anastasia seem slow and retarted. Like three I seen Anastasia(1997) the cartoon Fox movie , Anastasia the mystery of Anna, and the 1956 movie with Yul Banner and Ingrid Bergman. I disliked those movies they were so stupid and had nothing to do with what realy happened. They are trying to make Anatasia look bad and get money off of her. In all three of those movies she does not know her name , who was her family , how did they look, she just forgot everything. Thats just wrong!!!! >:(  It is a shame how much people are using others just to get what they want mainly MONEY!!! Anastasia would have been angry at them. I believe Anastasia realy died at 17 along with her family in 1918. But her bones are missing probaly because the executioners creamated her and Alexei's body's and buried it a long distance from where they buried the other nine dead bodies. According to Yakov Yurovsky's note they buried two corpses separte from the rest of the bodies. ;)
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 06, 2007, 08:43:06 PM
I don't think her memory is exactly honored by discussions in a thread started by someone with the screen name "Cornholio", either. Think of the expression of Alexandra's face if she had to explain to her daughters what that means.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Holly on January 07, 2007, 01:30:47 AM
I don't think her memory is exactly honored by discussions in a thread started by someone with the screen name "Cornholio", either. Think of the expression of Alexandra's face if she had to explain to her daughters what that means.


A screen name has nothing to do with this thread; it's just a name. What does it matter which name you choose?! I don't think any of them would care what name someone has if they're compassionate about them and their memory. Completely off the point...
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 07, 2007, 12:34:59 PM
What does it mean  ??? ???

Anyway AA did a wicked wicked thing. Imagine if it was your loved one she was defrauding. Thats the last thing the surviving Romanovs needed after all they had gone through. Mean, mean, mean!!!
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on January 07, 2007, 01:16:06 PM
What does it mean  ??? ???

To be as polite as I can, Eddie_Boy, "cornholing" is a sexual activity involving what Cornolio would call his "bunghole."

And despite what you may choose to think, Holly, the choice of this particular screen name is howlingly inappropriate for a person who has decided to come here and lecture on what might or might not be disrespect for the Grand Duchess.  However, if you insist that "Cornholio" is an entirely appropriate user name because it's the intent of the individual behind the name that really matters -- then cut "Anna Anderson" a similar break.  I hear a heck of a lot of "crazy" and "insane" attached to her name in these parts -- and if you believe that, then you can not also believe that her intent was to "disrespect" Anastasia.

~Penny
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: duchessclotho on January 07, 2007, 01:26:14 PM
But on the flip side the story of Anna Anderson has created a lot of interest in the Romanov family.  I myself would never have wanted to learn about the Imperial Family if Anna Anderson hadn't been such a visible character.  Over the years I have evolved in my interest.  But the fascination and the willingness to learn about this vibrant, loving, wonderful family would not have been possible if Anna Anderson never existed.  They just would have been another footnote in history.

Duchessclotho
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 07, 2007, 01:38:06 PM
Thank you for the explanation Penny!!
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: lexi4 on January 07, 2007, 02:41:30 PM
Ah... but it does matter...the screen name. It is based on characters known to be disrepsectuf and while that may or may not be funny on television, it is inappropriate here. The name itself implies disrespect.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 07, 2007, 03:14:27 PM
Well if FA's permitted it who are we to judge on what is or isn't an exceptable screen name?
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: grandduchessella on January 07, 2007, 03:44:14 PM
I have to say I didn't know anything about the screenname to be offended or not. After it was brought up, I googled it. Now I'm old (or young) enough to know Beavis & Butthead but not familiar enough with them to recognize the reference. I suppose as there's not outright profanity in the name it's acceptable but it's really the FA's call. Maybe he's not a B&B connoisseur?  ;)
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Cornholio on January 07, 2007, 04:07:03 PM
Dear me, I had no idea this silly little joke of a name would cause this thread to be taken off topic, unless that was the aim. I hope not!

 I am aware that Cornholio is a Beavis and Butthead character. I have never heard, on or off the show, of the term 'cornholing'. The reason for the screen name is that in the movie "Beavis and Butthead Do America", the duo were on a cross country trip. He ate too much candy and became hyper, pulling his shirt up over his head as show in my avatar. On a cross- country trip, a friend and I did this with our shirts for a joke. That is ALL that was intended by it, a personal reference to that. You can watch the entire movie, there is nothing in it about the name being anything other than silly. Really, too much has been made out of this. If it's so offensive, by all means remove the picture and the name, but please leave the post because it's an important question.

I do thank Holly, Olishka and Imperial Angel for their heartfelt and well thought out responses. I totally agree.

Eddieboy UK, your post about the claimants being hurtful to the families is also a good one.

Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on January 07, 2007, 04:30:39 PM

I do thank Holly, Olishka and Imperial Angel for their heartfelt and well thought out responses. I totally agree.

So opinions which do not agree with your premise are neither "heartfelt" nor "well though out"?  Interesting...

Quote
Eddieboy UK, your post about the claimants being hurtful to the families is also a good one.

Through my research, I have met and interviewed and got to "know" on some level several Romanovs of different branches -- maybe half-a-dozen of them. Two of them knew Anastasia in life.  Before discussing the AA story, I specifically asked each of them if they are personally bothered or "hurt" by Anna Anderson.  None of them are/were.  All were willing to discuss the AA story with varying degrees of interest.  None of them said or implied that Anna Anderson was "crazy," but all were interested in what the truth about her might have been.

Let's not be too precious here...
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 07, 2007, 04:38:23 PM
I don't think it's being precious at ALL. The distress it must of caused the Dowager Empress, Xenia and Olga is not hard to imagine. Especally Olga. Really an awful occurence.

Lets put are selves in their shoes. A much loved grandaughter/neice vanishes virtually without trace and then a few years later a woman, clearly an imposter, pretends to be her! How awful!
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on January 07, 2007, 04:48:57 PM
I don't think it's being precious at ALL. The distress it must of caused the Dowager Empress, Xenia and Olga is not hard to imagine. Especally Olga. Really an awful occurence.

Lets put are selves in their shoes. A much loved grandaughter/neice vanishes virtually without trace and then a few years later a woman, clearly an imposter, pretends to be her! How awful!

We can argue in another thread about how "clear" this imposter was to Olga -- but I am not speaking of these people.  I am speaking of the ones known to me who are either alive, or who were alive until recently.  These are the only ones whose "feelings" can be helped at this time -- and if they assure a historian that they do not have hurt feelings over Anna Anderson and her claim, then I take them at their word.  In my experience -- which is the only frame of reference in which I am speaking -- the subject of this thread is a non-issue.

MF died almost seventy years ago; Olga and Xenia died forty years ago. They are gone.  Their "feelings" -- real or imagined -- are beyond any help at this time, and therefore cannot be allowed to dictate what we are allowed to think about, write about, read about or discuss.

Let's be sensible here.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Holly on January 07, 2007, 04:53:31 PM
Cornholio is the name of the character Beavis turns into when he's had too much sugar/caffeine. I really don't think there's anything offensive in that. Not a lot of people would find out some other meaning in that name... ::)
Like I said, this topic has nothing to do with some one's screen name. It's just a name! In my opinion, the post and what's in it matters more than the name that's at the top of it.
We're all interested in the truth about Anna Anderson.  Obviously, she was mentally unstable to a degree. Excuse me, but I think calling yourself a Grand Duchess whilst living a lie, then going naked on your roof more than once(among many other things) sounds a bit loony to me. I agree with Eddieboy. I really don't understand your post, Penny; it also doesn't matter what Anna Anderson called herself, she still pretended to be Anastasia, and what she did was disrespectful to the dead in my eyes. Not only disrespectful to the dead, but to the Romanov's and those who knew Anastasia very well.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Penny_Wilson on January 07, 2007, 04:59:58 PM
Cornholio is the name of the character Beavis turns into when he's had too much sugar/caffeine. I really don't think there's anything offensive in that. Not a lot of people would find out some other meaning in that name... ::)

Many other people who post here know exactly what the name means.  It's been quite the topic of PMs today.

Quote
We're all interested in the truth about Anna Anderson.  Obviously, she was mentally unstable to a degree. Excuse me, but I think calling yourself a Grand Duchess whilst living a lie, then going naked on your roof more than once(among many other things) sounds a bit loony to me.

Please read (or re-read) Peter Kurth's book for the entirety of this story.

Quote
I really don't understand your post, Penny...


Sorry.  I've written as plainly as I can.

Quote
...Not only disrespectful to the dead, but to the Romanov's and those who knew Anastasia very well.

This is your opinion; it is not the opinion of the Romanovs in my experience.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 07, 2007, 05:07:51 PM
Since I am the one who first brought this up, I'd like to throw my two kopeks into the discussion.

The name is relevant to this particular thread. You ask whether Anastasia's tragic death is "cheapened" by "Anna Andersen" using her name, so names are obviously important. I know that the name Cornholio comes from Beavis and Butthead, but the writers of that show were making a smirky little point with it. Don't you think it "cheapens" your argument to have a screen name that is a smutty joke making the plea for sensitivity?

The whole "cheapening" thing also perplexes me. How exactly is Anastasia's suffering and tragic death "diminished" by Anna Andersen? Does she not die tragically? Does her suffering lose value (the definition of "cheapening", right?). No. Anastasia is long past those kind of considerations. If you really feel this way, then someone like Marie Antoinette had a death "cheapened" by the outcries of joy that greeted the moment her head fell.

The value of suffering and tragic death is not awarded by movies, plays, television series or even imposters. Moreover, when you are older, Holly and Olishka, and have had a chance to do history as a serious student, you will understand that we can't cut out study of the nasty bits. Nor should we.

Eddie, I know a great deal about Olga at least, and I have a hard time imagining that this very tough woman, who survived the destruction of her society and everything that happened to her in her life, would have wasted a moment feeling hurt and sad about Anna Andersen. Annoyed, yes.

There seems to be a concerted effort to stop discussion of Anna Andersen. No idea why, but there it is. On the other hand, I suppose the correct answer to the question posed by the thread is "no".

I went back and modified this when I read Penny Wilson's post. I do think some credence by those concerned about the Romanovs' hurt feelings should be given to someone who actually knows Romanovs.

Simon

Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: imperial angel on January 07, 2007, 05:17:20 PM
I think this kind of debate is like the debate about whether the animated movie cheapened Anastasia's memory or not, or whether it was disrespectful to her memory to have a cartoon. That thread has many interesting discussions in it that might be relevant to this. Between the two, I feel Anna Anderson cheapened Anastasia's memory more. As for not discussing Anna Anderson, we are discussing her right here. She really did have mental issues. She did not intend to cheapen anyone's memory, I know that but it still seems that she did in some ways, through making Anastasia a figure who is not known historically as she really was. Olga was annoyed about the impostors, but from the quotes in Olga's biography, it is obvious she respected Anastasia's memory. I can't remember exactly what else she said, but that would be the best source for her feelings, or any inference about them.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: lexi4 on January 07, 2007, 05:23:30 PM
Simon,
I wish I had said all of that.  :)
In my post about using the name Cornholio, I did not mean to imply that the poster should not be allowed to use it or that I as offended by it. I was merely trying to make the point Simon made so well in his above post.

No, to answer the original question.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Holly on January 07, 2007, 05:27:38 PM
Anna Anderson wasn't just using her name. (Actually, I've never seen her called "Anastasia" before) It's the fact that she pretended to be a young girl who was murdered. That's not right. What I think Cornholio means, is that when Anna Anderson and all of those other pretenders said they were Anastasia and made up all these stories, people who don't know the whole story, tend to believe it. They believe Anastasia lived on and, in the case of "AnastasiA", lived on in an orphanage. People seem to forget that she died with all of these legends floating around all the time. I never said we should cut out the "nasty bits" in history. And we shouldn't forget about Anna Anderson, she is a very important part of this saga and she shouldn't be left out, of course. But, if she never happened, it would of course be more convienent. Haha.
On the other side, Anna Anderson might in a way have brought Anastasia's tragic death to light. I'm sure all the attention Anna gave to the real story of Anastasia brought others to realize the truth.
On a side note: I am doing history as a serious student. I'm taking college world history classes in 10th grade. How much more serious can high school get?  ;D (Hopefully not much!)
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on January 07, 2007, 05:32:41 PM
I think Anna Anderson was just as tragic a person as Anastasia, myself.  She clearly was a very unhappy person and lived a sad life pretending to be someone she was not, someone who, I think, she actually convinced herself that she was.

I believe both should be respected for who they were.  Calling one a 'martyr' and one 'crazy' is neither true nor respectful.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Holly on January 07, 2007, 05:37:14 PM
I think Anna Anderson was just as tragic a person as Anastasia, myself.  She clearly was a very unhappy person and lived a sad life pretending to be someone she was not, someone who, I think, she actually convinced herself that she was.

I believe both should be respected for who they were.  Calling one a 'martyr' and one 'crazy' is neither true nor respectful.

Rachel
xx
Nobody said Anna's life wasn't tragic. Living a life pretending to be someone else is an awfully sad life. But, I don't think quite as tragic as Anastasia's. Anna brought the tragedies we know of, on herself. Of course, "martyr" and "crazy" are generally opinions. But Anastasia was cannonized in the Russian Orthodox Church.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 07, 2007, 05:39:28 PM
Just a couple of things:

(1) Anna Andersen never called herself by that name. She called herself Anastasia Tschaikowski or Anastasia Manahan. Just a minor point.

(2) That's great about taking a history class in high school, Holly. But of course there are much more in-depth and interesting courses ahead of you. Are you thinking a majoring in history?

(3) If anything, the mystery of Anna Andersen has illuminated the life of Anastasia Romanova in a way that simply would not have happened without it, so all of you young ladies --- and Eddieboy, of course --- who are dedicated to her memory should really be pleased that the Andersen case deflected so much attention to the real girl. Had this not happened, she would have suffered the historical fate of most princesses, i.e. oblivion. Look how much they know about her on the other threads. I have seen posts about everything from her favorite clothing to the color of her eyes, or even what her sister would have looked like in blue jeans.

(4) You are really not talking about Romanov feelings being hurt. You are talking about your own feelings.  Why is that? I suppose it is natural to identify with a young lady your own age who comes to a tragic end, and that is nice. But as I said above, the real girl is past her suffering. How are you personally being hurt by the Andersen case? As Penny said, the Romanovs don't seem to care all that much (and didn't in the case of some of the dead ones, at least).

Simon
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Holly on January 07, 2007, 05:54:38 PM
Just a couple of things:

(1) Anna Andersen never called herself by that name. She called herself Anastasia Tschaikowski or Anastasia Manahan. Just a minor point.

(2) That's great about taking a history class in high school, Holly. But of course there are much more in-depth and interesting courses ahead of you. Are you thinking a majoring in history?

(3) If anything, the mystery of Anna Andersen has illuminated the life of Anastasia Romanova in a way that simply would not have happened without it, so all of you young ladies --- and Eddieboy, of course --- who are dedicated to her memory should really be pleased that the Andersen case deflected so much attention to the real girl. Had this not happened, she would have suffered the historical fate of most princesses, i.e. oblivion. Look how much they know about her on the other threads. I have seen posts about everything from her favorite clothing to the color of her eyes, or even what her sister would have looked like in blue jeans.

(4) You are really not talking about Romanov feelings being hurt. You are talking about your own feelings.  Why is that? I suppose it is natural to identify with a young lady your own age who comes to a tragic end, and that is nice. But as I said above, the real girl is past her suffering. How are you personally being hurt by the Andersen case? As Penny said, the Romanovs don't seem to care all that much (and didn't in the case of some of the dead ones, at least).

Simon
Oh, I didn't know that she called herself Anastasia. I apologize. I've only heard her referred to as Anna Anderson. I guess I do need to re-read Peter Kurth's book! :-X I do want to major in history in college, though many tell me not to, as there is nothing much you can do with it career-wise. After thinking about it a bit more, Anna Anderson did in a way illuminate Anastasia's life. And I suppose that is the one plus of Anna Anderson.
About talking more of my own feelings than the Romanov's: it probably seems strange that I do that. I didn't realize I was. Somehow I take things relating to Anastasia to heart and I get these feelings occasionally. When someone says something against her, I feel hurt and offended myself. You'll have to excuse me.  :-[ But couldn't Olga A. or Maria F. feel upset that someone was claiming to be their beloved neice/granddaughter? I think I would, if that happened to me.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: lexi4 on January 07, 2007, 06:12:19 PM
Holly,
If you keep an open mind, the more you study, the more your perspective will change. At least that is how it has been for me. Perhaps now you have a "romantic" view of AN. That is fine. Some of us are looking at it from a historical perspective. We can't possibly know the real feelings of Olga, Xenia, or the Dowager Empress about AN. We have ideas, but those feelings and thoughts were not discussed publicly. AA life does not "cheapen" the tragedy of the deaths of the IF. I don't see the two is related at all.
Lexi
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Cornholio on January 07, 2007, 06:58:42 PM
I did not know the name was anything but funny. He's just a hyper kid.

The way that Andersen cheapens the tragedy of the real Anastasia is when people say she really was Anastasia because that is disrespectful to the girl who was murdered and martryed. She did not live on as another person. By saying so, it is taking respect away from the sad end to the real Anastasia. If anybody talks about Andersen like she was a different person and not Anastasia but a sad imposter that is okay.

The worst way the whole Anna Andersen story cheapens and disrespects the real tragedy is when people get into a fight over it...and it's happening again... :'(

Why do people get so upset when somebody says Andersen wasn't really Anastasia? It makes no sense.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Belochka on January 07, 2007, 07:38:02 PM
Just a couple of things:

(1) Anna Andersen never called herself by that name. She called herself Anastasia Tschaikowski ...

Simon

Did that also mean that Mrs Manahan prefered to use the more familiar Polish appellation?  ::)

Margarita
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Holly on January 07, 2007, 08:04:16 PM
I did not know the name was anything but funny. He's just a hyper kid.

The way that Andersen cheapens the tragedy of the real Anastasia is when people say she really was Anastasia because that is disrespectful to the girl who was murdered and martryed. She did not live on as another person. By saying so, it is taking respect away from the sad end to the real Anastasia. If anybody talks about Andersen like she was a different person and not Anastasia but a sad imposter that is okay.

The worst way the whole Anna Andersen story cheapens and disrespects the real tragedy is when people get into a fight over it...and it's happening again... :'(

Why do people get so upset when somebody says Andersen wasn't really Anastasia? It makes no sense.
Amen.

Lexi, truthfully, I really don't see anything about the Romanov's "romantically". I've been interested in them for around 5-6 years now and if at any time I saw Anastasia in a romantic perspective, I've passed that by now. I, too, look at things in a historical perspective. Just because Olga A.'s feelings weren't discussed to the public, it doesn't mean you can't know of them. "AA does not cheapen the death's of the IF" - is your opinion. I, and others, think differently. The two are related. Re-read Cornholio's posts and maybe you will see.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Forum Admin on January 07, 2007, 09:17:21 PM
Look,
Anna Anderson has nothing to do with Anastasia Nicholaievna, actually. People saw in her what they wanted to see. The truth is, they never saw the 'real' Anastasia. So, what does that have to do with anything then? We too know many Romanovs, including several who knew the real AN. They all said AA was "the best of the fakes" and pretty much laughed at all of them, AA included.  AA is nothing more than a historical footnote to the story of the fall of the Romanov Dynasty. Interesting, sure. but since AA was not AN, there is no "cheapening" of the horrible executions in Ekaterinburg. She was just a strange sad person, who associated herself to the story. Nothing more.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 07, 2007, 10:16:28 PM
Just a couple of things:

(1) Anna Andersen never called herself by that name. She called herself Anastasia Tschaikowski ...

Simon

Did that also mean that Mrs Manahan prefered to use the more familiar Polish appellation?  ::)

Margarita

Nope, my spelling mistake. Whenever I write foreign names I am kind of interchangeable about them. "George" for "Georgiy", "Ksenia" for "Xenia". Actually, I doubt she ever used a last name at all, save for Manahan, and I have a hard time imagining that she introduced herself to people as Mrs. Manahan. Jack Manahan customarily referred to her as "my wife", "Anastasia" and "the Grand Duchess", from what I have read. I have also read that she called him "Hans".

So there you go.

Simon
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 08, 2007, 01:19:06 AM
I've spent my weekend taking care of my girls, who are both sick, one with strep throat and one with a sinus infection. I have thus missed most of this discussion, and too bad for me. :0

The brutality of the killing of this family is perhaps most chillingly told in Yurovsky's 1922 note, which Greg and Penny have recently made available on their website. It was undoubtedly a tragic end for them and a very painful loss for their surviving family. Without doubt, every family member with living memory of them is dead now, so from the standpoint of protecting their feelings, I agree that we need not be concerned with discussions of AA and how this would impact currently living Romanov descendants.

For some of us, Anastasia Nicholievna is a martyr and indeed she is one according to the exiled Russian Orthdodox Church and a passion bearer according to the church in Russia. I don't think it is respectful to Orthodox Christians to dispute this designation except to agree to disagree if one actually does. For those of us who are not Orthodox Christians, some of us believe that nothing AA did could diminish the tragedy of Grand Duchess Anastasia's death.

However, it would not be entirely accurate to report that all of the currently living members of the Family are content to see Anastasia's life misportrayed in the media, not that anyone here has done so, by the way. I can clearly recall many of the current members of the Family opposing the Anastasia cartoon because of its jarring mixture of fact and fiction. Anna Anderson herself had nothing at all to do with this "fictionalized Anastasia".

So, at most we could say the fact that there was at least one false claimant here in the West and countless others in Russia eventually lead to misrepresentations in the media of the life of the real Anastasia. I'm not sure that this cheapens the tragedy of her death, but I think to an extent it has trivialized her as a media figure in a way that would never have happened had there been no false claimants. That, in my opinion, is very sad, and at least for me, made me more committed to trying to finding the last two bodies from that murder.

For many of you, this may not stop the trivialization, but if the majority of this mystery can be resolved to a greater degree than it is now, it may allow the Grand Duchess a much better chance of resting in peace.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Belochka on January 08, 2007, 04:03:32 AM
... made me more committed to trying to finding the last two bodies from that murder.

Curious Lisa, but how are you going to accomplish that particular commitment?

... For many of you, this may not stop the trivialization, but if the majority of this mystery can be resolved to a greater degree than it is now, it may allow the Grand Duchess a much better chance of resting in peace.

Respectfully I would suggest that Grand Duchess Anastasia has always been at peace since the day she was assassinated in Ekaterinburg in 1918.  After that brutal fact was realized, the absolute nonsense about her survivability that erupted in the west, by comparison, became a disrespectful game of trivia played by those who chose to deceive by the power of their words.

It is however up to the living today to learn to distinguish between flippant trivia against significant facts no matter how unwelcome they may be.

Margarita
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 08, 2007, 04:34:11 AM
Thank you all for the interesting posts.

My point (and it maybe a small one) was that the whole AA chirade must have caused a great deal of stress for the surviving Romanovs. Look how Olga was hassled by Gleb Botkin et al and various fakes. Who wants all that?!! It must have caused her grief. Going on memory here, and I stand corrected, but didn't Xenia write about the wickedness of Botkin to accuse them of attempting to defraud a much loved neice dude to money which was cruel and hurtful? That's horrible.

Didn't Prince Henry ban the mention of AA because he knew the upset it caused Princess Irene? And perhaps if the Dowager Empress had been able to come to terms with the fact that the family were dead she would have made her feelings on AA clear.

Anyway, just my two pence worth ;)
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Lemur on January 08, 2007, 10:32:48 AM
Quote
For some of us, Anastasia Nicholievna is a martyr and indeed she is one according to the exiled Russian Orthdodox Church and a passion bearer according to the church in Russia. I don't think it is respectful to Orthodox Christians to dispute this designation except to agree to disagree if one actually does.

That is a tough one, when many people believe she is a martyr and a passion bearer, then you have others saying she didn't die, but lived for many years under an assumed name and died elderly, that looks disrepectful to the religion. She can't be a martyr and Anna Anderson too.

Quote
For those of us who are not Orthodox Christians, some of us believe that nothing AA did could diminish the tragedy of Grand Duchess Anastasia's death.

How about by saying that there was no tragic death? That's exactly what she did by pretending to be Anastasia.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Lemur on January 08, 2007, 10:34:57 AM
Respectfully I would suggest that Grand Duchess Anastasia has always been at peace since the day she was assassinated in Ekaterinburg in 1918.  After that brutal fact was realized, the absolute nonsense about her survivability that erupted in the west, by comparison, became a disrespectful game of trivia played by those who chose to deceive by the power of their words.

Margarita


That is the final comfort in all this, to know that she really is at peace.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: imperial angel on January 08, 2007, 11:58:41 AM
Obviously, she has been at peace since her death, although her memory has been dragged through the mud and that really isn't peace. I think it did cause her royal relatives some problems at the time, more than just annoyance, although we can't know exactly what they felt. We can only speculate based on what we read in biographies. I would say that isn't always accurate, but it can be interesting I think Anna Anderson and Anastasia should be treated as different subjects, not thrown together as they sometimes are in biographies of Anna Anderson supporting her claim.I agree with every word of Lisa Davidson's post on this subject, and it showed me what I hadn't thought of before, but agree with now.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 08, 2007, 12:49:45 PM
... made me more committed to trying to finding the last two bodies from that murder.

Curious Lisa, but how are you going to accomplish that particular commitment?

... For many of you, this may not stop the trivialization, but if the majority of this mystery can be resolved to a greater degree than it is now, it may allow the Grand Duchess a much better chance of resting in peace.

Respectfully I would suggest that Grand Duchess Anastasia has always been at peace since the day she was assassinated in Ekaterinburg in 1918.  After that brutal fact was realized, the absolute nonsense about her survivability that erupted in the west, by comparison, became a disrespectful game of trivia played by those who chose to deceive by the power of their words.

It is however up to the living today to learn to distinguish between flippant trivia against significant facts no matter how unwelcome they may be.

Margarita


Happy New Year Margarita!

I have never been to Russia and it will take considerable resources to get me there to study the way I want to study. So, we are talking years. I still have two daughters to get through school, and they are of course, my priority.

Thus, my committment is to doing as much research as possible to try to figure out the location of the second gravesite. To that end, I am putting together a small group to go over the evidence, piece by piece, in hopes that we can figure out why the site has not been located yet. This promises to be a most interesting project.

I don't want to do anything which will in any way impede the work being done in the field. Obviously, that is not my area of expertise, as I am not a scientist.

I am sure to a degree the Grand Duchess rests in peace, but I nonetheless feel that there will be less disrespect in the world towards her (of which the cartoon is only an example) if this can be determined. There is of course a chance that she is already interred with her family, but if she is or is not, I still feel it is important that her remains, those of the missing sister (who may or may not be her), and her brother, be identified and buried with the rest of their family. It is only my opinion, but it is my opinion that only then they will "rest in peace".
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Belochka on January 08, 2007, 05:47:57 PM
... made me more committed to trying to finding the last two bodies from that murder.

Curious Lisa, but how are you going to accomplish that particular commitment?

... For many of you, this may not stop the trivialization, but if the majority of this mystery can be resolved to a greater degree than it is now, it may allow the Grand Duchess a much better chance of resting in peace.

Respectfully I would suggest that Grand Duchess Anastasia has always been at peace since the day she was assassinated in Ekaterinburg in 1918.  After that brutal fact was realized, the absolute nonsense about her survivability that erupted in the west, by comparison, became a disrespectful game of trivia played by those who chose to deceive by the power of their words.

It is however up to the living today to learn to distinguish between flippant trivia against significant facts no matter how unwelcome they may be.

Margarita


Happy New Year Margarita!

I have never been to Russia and it will take considerable resources to get me there to study the way I want to study. So, we are talking years. I still have two daughters to get through school, and they are of course, my priority.

Thus, my committment is to doing as much research as possible to try to figure out the location of the second gravesite. To that end, I am putting together a small group to go over the evidence, piece by piece, in hopes that we can figure out why the site has not been located yet. This promises to be a most interesting project.

I don't want to do anything which will in any way impede the work being done in the field. Obviously, that is not my area of expertise, as I am not a scientist.

Happy New Year Lisa!

I am intrigued by this "small group" that you have joined. It seems that our past conversations on this matter have encouraged you to pursue an independent stance. I trust that your desktop research will bring you the comfort that you seek.

If you have anything to share please keep me appraised by PM, since the exchange of credible ideas ideally should be communicated. 

S.E.A.R.C.H. is of course the only authorized international group that is endorsed by the Russian Federation to conduct on-field investigations to find the remains of the two missing children.

Margarita  
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Holly on January 08, 2007, 10:09:10 PM
Thank you Lisa and Lemur, for you posts. I really agree.  :)

There have only been 2 people on this earth in general, who have actually made real progress in the quest to find Anastasia's and Alexei's remains. And I truly hope with all my heart that in the end they will be successful with their endeavors.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Belochka on January 08, 2007, 11:47:20 PM
There have only been 2 people on this earth in general, who have actually made real progress in the quest to find Anastasia's and Alexei's remains. And I truly hope with all my heart that in the end they will be successful with their endeavors.

The S.E.A.R.C.H. team hopes that this year will be a success to bring full closure for all. Your heartfelt wishes are appreciated.

Margarita  :)
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 18, 2007, 07:55:47 PM
There have only been 2 people on this earth in general, who have actually made real progress in the quest to find Anastasia's and Alexei's remains. And I truly hope with all my heart that in the end they will be successful with their endeavors.

The S.E.A.R.C.H. team hopes that this year will be a success to bring full closure for all. Your heartfelt wishes are appreciated.

Margarita  :)

I wish you all the luck Belochcka. where are you guys going to be searching? Are you planning on searching near the Four Brothers mine? Some reason, I just don't think that they are near Pig's Meadow as Yurosky claimed. I mean, that's where he said they would be, but there's no trace of them there it seems. Maybe he really buried them elsewhere. I just hope you can find the bodies so that all the lingering doubts in the back of my mind can be settled.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 18, 2007, 07:56:56 PM
Oh, and as for the topic, I absolutely do not think Anastasia's death was cheapend by Anna Anderson. Anastasia would have loved Anna Anderson and been very thankful I think because it's because of AA that all of the films and books called "Anastasia" were made.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Isabella on May 26, 2007, 04:25:16 PM
There have only been 2 people on this earth in general, who have actually made real progress in the quest to find Anastasia's and Alexei's remains. And I truly hope with all my heart that in the end they will be successful with their endeavors.

The S.E.A.R.C.H. team hopes that this year will be a success to bring full closure for all. Your heartfelt wishes are appreciated.

Margarita  :)

I wish you all the luck Belochcka. where are you guys going to be searching? Are you planning on searching near the Four Brothers mine? Some reason, I just don't think that they are near Pig's Meadow as Yurosky claimed. I mean, that's where he said they would be, but there's no trace of them there it seems. Maybe he really buried them elsewhere. I just hope you can find the bodies so that all the lingering doubts in the back of my mind can be settled.

Yes, I wish all you guys luck! I hope it all is successful.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Belochka on May 26, 2007, 09:50:33 PM
There have only been 2 people on this earth in general, who have actually made real progress in the quest to find Anastasia's and Alexei's remains. And I truly hope with all my heart that in the end they will be successful with their endeavors.

The S.E.A.R.C.H. team hopes that this year will be a success to bring full closure for all. Your heartfelt wishes are appreciated.

Margarita  :)

I wish you all the luck Belochcka. where are you guys going to be searching? Are you planning on searching near the Four Brothers mine? Some reason, I just don't think that they are near Pig's Meadow as Yurosky claimed. I mean, that's where he said they would be, but there's no trace of them there it seems. Maybe he really buried them elsewhere. I just hope you can find the bodies so that all the lingering doubts in the back of my mind can be settled.

Yes, I wish all you guys luck! I hope it all is successful.

Thank you for your good wishes. Unfortunately this year's search has been now been postponed, but I have been firmly assured by Peter Sarandinaki that the expeditions will continue until the remains of the two children are found.

Margarita  :)
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: BobAtchison on June 03, 2007, 05:25:07 PM
FS/Anna was 'robbing the dead' when she stole Anastasia's identity.  Since the real Anastasia was gone there was nothing she could ever do to reclaim her identity.  We can all be grateful that FS/Anna is totally discredited now.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Belochka on June 03, 2007, 06:52:20 PM
FS/Anna was 'robbing the dead' when she stole Anastasia's identity.  Since the real Anastasia was gone there was nothing she could ever do to reclaim her identity.  We can all be grateful that FS/Anna is totally discredited now.

Indeed it was cruel what a stranger did to the memory of Grand Duchess Anastasia.

Margarita
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Eddie_uk on June 04, 2007, 01:23:22 AM
Oh, and as for the topic, I absolutely do not think Anastasia's death was cheapend by Anna Anderson. Anastasia would have loved Anna Anderson and been very thankful I think because it's because of AA that all of the films and books called "Anastasia" were made.

As if!!! It was a wicked thing to do. Not only to Anastasias memory but the also the grief it caused her surviving relatives, espeically poor Olga.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Lemur on June 04, 2007, 09:48:12 AM
Oh, and as for the topic, I absolutely do not think Anastasia's death was cheapend by Anna Anderson. Anastasia would have loved Anna Anderson and been very thankful I think because it's because of AA that all of the films and books called "Anastasia" were made.

As if!!! It was a wicked thing to do. Not only to Anastasias memory but the also the grief it caused her surviving relatives, espeically poor Olga.

I agree, Eddie. Who'd want a silly bunch of stories about your life made that weren't true? Who'd want someone to take your name and pretend to be you and make a joke of you? It was identity theft. Poor Anastasia.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Eddie_uk on June 04, 2007, 12:05:18 PM
Exactly Lemur!! :)
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: TheAce1918 on June 04, 2007, 02:29:54 PM
I agree.  AA has completely tarnished the life of the real Anastasia, and has henceforth, stained the House of Romanov. 

And until I see a body or some form of represented mortal remains, 'tragic death', will be just an possibility to me.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Bob_the_builder on June 04, 2007, 03:46:51 PM
FS/Anna was 'robbing the dead' when she stole Anastasia's identity.  Since the real Anastasia was gone there was nothing she could ever do to reclaim her identity.  We can all be grateful that FS/Anna is totally discredited now.
Well, technically she can't "steal her body" as we don't even know where the real Anastasia's body even is.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Eddie_uk on June 04, 2007, 03:52:45 PM
Martyr dear, it's an expression which is why it's written in inverted commas. No ones talking about stealing a body but robbing HIH Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevnas identity. Disgraceful behaviour.
:)
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on June 08, 2007, 12:04:19 PM
I feel the exact same way, Cornholio.
Phil, Cornholio never said Anna Anderson was a cartoon character... and to many people, Anastasia IS a martyr. She is now a martyr in the Russian Orthodox church as are the rest of her family. You may not see NAOTMAA that way, but many people do. I've always felt that people who believe such a crazed woman such as Anna Anderson could be Anastasia, were being disrespectful to the real Anastasia's memory. Anna was mentally ill and I feel sorry that she had to live a lie for so long. I hope that soon, Anastasia's remains will be found for sure and then she can be remembered for who she really was; a lively and promising young girl whose life was tragically cut short just because she held the last name of Romanova.

Ditto. Couldn't have said it better.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on June 08, 2007, 12:07:19 PM
Oh, and as for the topic, I absolutely do not think Anastasia's death was cheapend by Anna Anderson. Anastasia would have loved Anna Anderson and been very thankful I think because it's because of AA that all of the films and books called "Anastasia" were made.

Um, I have to disagree. Let's just put it this way. Would you be happy and thankful if your identity was stolen by a Polish factory worker, even if they eventually made you famous? I don't think Anastasia would have even appreciated the Hollywood glamour . . . the girl was a tomboy.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: Holly on June 09, 2007, 02:39:51 PM
Anastasia would have loved Anna Anderson and been very thankful I think because it's because of AA that all of the films and books called "Anastasia" were made.
Oh dear... I don't think I've ever laughed that hard at something said on the 'Survivors' thread. ;D
That's utterly ridiculous.
Title: Re: Do you feel Anastasia's tragic death is somehow cheapened by Anna Andersen?
Post by: dmitri on June 12, 2007, 01:19:31 PM
Yes I most definitely feel the association of Anna Anderson with Grand Duchess Anastasia is a complete and utter disgrace. Anybody who does any real research soon realises the total fraud Anderson was. Looking at the photos of the two should provide this as Anderson looks nothing at all like the real Anastasia. The arguments simply do not hold up. DNA evidence repeatedly tested by so many proved that there was absolutely no connection. I find it sad these people who keep on going on about Anderson. Are they the ones who believe Elvis Presley is still alive as well?