Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Hohenzollern => Topic started by: HerrKaiser on October 12, 2004, 06:04:06 PM

Title: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 12, 2004, 06:04:06 PM
Is it the case that Princess Cecilie, wife of the Crown Prince of Germany, was the early 20th century's "Princess Diana"? I have heard Princess Cecilie was the storybook princess of Europe and was held in high regard and awe by not only the public but the German press and international press as well. The largest and most luxurious trans Atlantic cruise ships of the day was named for her. And, her style and beauty was classic during the pre-war period.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 12, 2004, 06:33:18 PM
Princess Cecile is another favorite of mine. She was very attractive as a young woman (though she grew matronly quickly) and she and Willy were quite the 'bright young things' of Berlin society. She had lovely large dark eyes and thick hair which lent itself well to the hairstyles of the day. She apparently was a fashion trendsetter in Berlin society with an especial flair for hats. She also seems to have been of above average height. She was also a great favorite of her SIL Victoria Louise for her aide in acting as conduit in VL's 'Romeo & Juliet' romance with Ernst August of Hanover. She matured a lot faster than Willy though as she had children and devoted less time to fast-living. She was ahead of the curve in her dealing with her daughter Alexandrine who had Down's Syndrome. Cecile took care of her rather than sending her off and Alexandrine was always shown in family photos--including ones for the public. She was very active in the Red Cross and other wartime charities and was allowed to remain in Germany after the Revolution. Her sister was Queen Alexandrine of Denmark and they remained close throughout their lives despite the separation of war. Her sister-in-law was Alexandra of Hanover (Ernst August's sister which is probably why she was so involved in facillitating his romance)--daughter of Thyra of Denmark. Her mother was the colorful and controversial GDss Anastasia Mikhailovna of Russia.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 13, 2004, 08:33:18 AM
Thanks Grandduchessella! Your resources are terrific! Cecilie was such a positive looking and acting member of the Hohenzollern family, do you know if the Kaiser used her for international PR so to speak? I have found nothing about the Hohenzollern international travel except after WWI. Her namesake cruise liner was a favorite of the rich and famous, so I have always suspected she must have had a global presence.
Going back earlier, I recall how her soon-to-be sister in law, Victoria Luise, saw her for the first time when Cecilie arrived at the Neues Palais in Potsdam to meet the family. VL wrote that Cecilie's arrival was like a fairy tale princess because of both her beauty and fabulous outfit. Lastly, was Ceciliehof a result of a particular affection between the Kaiser and his daugher in law?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alicky1872 on October 13, 2004, 09:56:29 AM
I've seen many postcards of Cecilie holding little Alexandrine (who had Down's Syndrome) and I always thought she looked like such a little sweetie. I don't know much about her life though...would anyone be able to tell me more?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 13, 2004, 11:00:32 AM
Quote
I've seen many postcards of Cecilie holding little Alexandrine (who had Down's Syndrome) and I always thought she looked like such a little sweetie. I don't know much about her life though...would anyone be able to tell me more?


She was apparently much-loved by all her siblings. There's a sweet photo of them all while grown with Louis Ferdinand standing with his arm around her. I don't think there's a lot of published info on her--at least not in English--but she seems to have lived a quiet life with her mother. She never married or had children. Like I said, I think it was very modern that she was as out in front of the public as her other siblings and not hidden away.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alicky1872 on October 13, 2004, 11:11:00 AM
Thanks Grandduchessella! ;) It is nice to know that apparently Cecilie tried to make life as normal as possible for Alexandrine, not hiding her away from the public. (KGV and Queen Mary could have taken a que from her) I hope she had a happy life...
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eurohistory on October 26, 2004, 11:37:42 PM
I visited the Crown Princess Cecilie exhibition earlier this year...it was quite nice and the catalogue is highly recommended.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandra on October 27, 2004, 09:26:15 AM
Hello, everyone,

I have not posted on this particular thread before, so I hope you will forgive me if I ask for confirmation: was Pss Cecilie's mother, Anastasia Mikhailovna, the same AM who was sister to 'Sandro'? The choice of the name Cecilie/Cecilia seems to echo that of the Mikhailovichi's mother, Cecilia of Baden. Just wanted to be sure - thanks!

Katherine Alexandra M. Hines
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 27, 2004, 09:56:19 AM
Quote
Hello, everyone,

I have not posted on this particular thread before, so I hope you will forgive me if I ask for confirmation: was Pss Cecilie's mother, Anastasia Mikhailovna, the same AM who was sister to 'Sandro'? The choice of the name Cecilie/Cecilia seems to echo that of the Mikhailovichi's mother, Cecilia of Baden. Just wanted to be sure - thanks!

Katherine Alexandra M. Hines


Yes, it is. I wonder if her other daughter Alexandrine (Queen of Denmark) was named in honor of Sandro?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Kostya on October 27, 2004, 01:40:41 PM
The moment i saw princess Cecilie i fell completely in love with her and i would like to know more about her if it is possible.  Does anyone have a biography on her and pictures?  

I would really like to know more about her, her life, tragedy, love, family, i am even willing to know if she kept a diary and if it is public?  

Tnaks a lot
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 27, 2004, 03:28:07 PM
She wrote her memoirs and I think they were translated into English. Catherine Radziwill--the author of several less-than-reputable gossipy books on the Romanovs also wrote Disillusionment of a Crown Princess about Cecile. I've never read it and it's hard to find. She also mentioned in various memoirs by people such as Daisy of Pless.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 27, 2004, 04:27:08 PM
GrandduchessElla provided a wonderful summary earlier in this topic thread.
Princess Cecilie was truly the "fairytale princess" of the early 20th century in Europe. Beautiful, generous, caring, loving, outgoing. The German people loved her as did peoples from other nations.
Given the long life that Wilhelm II had and the fact that Cecilie died relatively young, had she risen to level of Empress, her reign would have been brief and hence possibly without many accomplishments. Nonetheless, as crown princess, she is one of the most memorable, quintessential princess in history.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on October 28, 2004, 01:36:56 AM
Quote

Yes, it is. I wonder if her other daughter Alexandrine (Queen of Denmark) was named in honor of Sandro?

I think Queen Alexandrine of Denmark was named after Grand Duchess Alexandrine of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (1803-92) (nee Princess of Prussia),her great-grandmother
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Teddy on October 28, 2004, 12:40:29 PM
Was this not "the"Cecilie who have met Anna Anderson in the Hospital, when she still was Fraulein Unbekannt?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Guinastasia on October 28, 2004, 02:23:47 PM
I think so.  I think her step-mother-in-law, Princess Hermine (Willy II's second wife) also met with Anna Anderson.

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Teddy on October 30, 2004, 09:04:45 AM
What i find strange is that Cecilie did regonize "Fraulein Unbekantt"as Anastasia!

But never in all history books about the Romanovs i ever read they ever met eachother in reallife (Cecilie and the real Anastasia).

Did they ever met eachother before 1914?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eurohistory on October 30, 2004, 10:36:02 AM
Listen, at the time many of the family's extended family members, many of them had not seen the Tsar's children for well over a decade, allowed themselves to be convinced by the impostor and the entire Anastasia hoax.

Even the late Prince Sigismund of Prussia, a first cousin of the Tsar's children, who had last seen Anastasia when she was only 11 years of age, fell for Fraulein Unbekannt.  This position was strengthened by the support Sigismund's brother-in-law, Prince Saxe-Altenburg, gave to Anna's claims.  However, had Sigismund lived long enought to witness DNA studies and everything else that has happened with this case since his 1978 death, (and I quote) "My father would have been disappointed to know that he was duped by this lady...there is no way he could have believed in her case with all the information available today." - Prince Alfred of Prussia.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 30, 2004, 12:26:25 PM
Yes, Arturo, but (while this dialog is heavily discussed on another thread) I continue to be amazed at the belief, even before DNA, that a person would NOT be recognizeable after such a time. Nearly every pre-movie screen entertainment shows grade school pics of celebs to see if the audience can identify. And most of the time, they are dead ringers. People do not change so much from age 11 to 18 to not be recognized! Even after a trauma. I find the hoax by Anna to have been furthered by people willing to ID her who may have had something to gain as well.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 30, 2004, 01:21:03 PM
I don't know. While I never believed AA was Anastasia, time and trauma can do things to a person. Look at how much Alexandra aged in such a short time. And if she was supposed to have escaped the butchery in there, it would've made sense that her face may have suffered a good deal of trauma--perhaps smashed by rifle butts, etc....Plus the physical trauma of imprisonment and then 10 years 'on the run'. It seems most people's tentative ID of her rested on the eyes. And I'm a big celeb watcher and I usually one get about 3/4 of those IDs right!  ;)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 30, 2004, 01:50:54 PM
Hehehe! I too like to watch celebs and get most correct in matching the old and new pics. Severe traumas do wreck a person's appearance. But, even presidents, prisoners who get locked up as young people, even accident victims, retain a certain ID that, at worst, computer aging techniques could validate. It is not like Anastasia's ID was attempting to match her looks at 11 or 15 to 55 or 60; it was really quite a short time in terms of physical changes.
Nonetheless, poor AA and the real story of who she was is more interesting than her claim. Somehow, she crafted a near-perfect tale of facts and details that set the entire world arguing for 80 years. I think AA was an accomplise to one or more of the executioners, aided the dying Anastasia, downloaded tons of info from the grand duchess, and adopted Anastasia's ID. The real fate, hence, of Anastasia would be the big question in this scenario.
But, back to dear Cecilie....
What did Cecilie do during the second world war? Did she know Count von Stauffenburg and the other royal plotters against Hitler?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eurohistory on October 30, 2004, 04:45:24 PM
Cecilie remainined in Prussia until it was due time to leave Potsdam for the West.

Her eldest surviving son, Prince Louis Ferdinand, left Schloß Cadinen as the Russians approached and moved his family to Cecilienhof where Cecilie awaited them.  From here they left to the north of Germany, where they felt safe.

Cecilie's nephew, Duke Christian Ludwig of Mecklenburg-Schwerin suffered a different fate.  Initially he left with his parents, who received refuge at Louisenlund, a Schleswig-Holstein property, but then Christian Ludwig decided to make one last return to Schwerin to retrieve more family heirlooms.  Unfortunately he was caught while doing so and sent to a prisoner of war camp in Russia.  For almost ten years he was feared lost/killed until in the 1950's he reappeared among a contingent of prisoners of war  exchanged between the Soviet Union and the Allies.  Kiki, as Christian Ludwig was known within the family circle, was a very nice man.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Kostya on November 08, 2004, 05:16:51 PM
Princess Cecilie has always captivated me so i was wondering if i can have more information concerning her from her parents to her childhood and if she ever have a relationship with OTMAA or with Nicholas II or Alexandra  or anyother member with the Romanov's?  

and if there are pictures of her and her family her husband, children and any member of the Romanov family?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on November 08, 2004, 10:54:52 PM
I don't think she ever had much, if any contact, with NAOTMAA. She didn't marry until 1905 and Germany & Russia were at war 9 yrs later. However, her mother WAS a Romanov so she may indeed have. I've never seen any photo evidence though--maybe someone else? Anyway, her mother was GDss Anastasia Mikhailovna--one of the numerous Mikhailovichi but the only daughter. There's some info on her in the Olga Fyodorovna thread and one on Anastasia herself. I don't think I've ever even seen photos of Cecile with any of her Romanov uncles or cousins. She wrote her memoirs (which I don't have) so there could be some good information in there. I have been reading the serialization of it (only 3 chapters out so far) and the only hint I've gotten was when she refers to writing more later about her 'dear grandfather' (GD Michael) so she must've seen him somewhat. She doesn't write much of her grandmother--at least so far.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 10, 2004, 10:51:36 AM
The famous cousins, aunts, uncles, second cousins etc among the European royals, in general, did not gather the way most "real" families do at Christmas and Easter dinner etc. The royal relations were, by current definition, somewhat disfunctional in that while they were blood relations, they had hostilities brewing and being acted on regularly. The disfunctions were escaled by virtue of the fact they almost exclusively intermarried. So while we Americans, in particular, wouls tend to assume the royals of our discussions would be calling, visiting, writing, vacationing etc with each other all the time, it was rare they enjoyed each other's company.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on November 10, 2004, 12:16:55 PM
Quote
The famous cousins, aunts, uncles, second cousins etc among the European royals, in general, did not gather the way most "real" families do at Christmas and Easter dinner etc. The royal relations were, by current definition, somewhat disfunctional in that while they were blood relations, they had hostilities brewing and being acted on regularly. The disfunctions were escaled by virtue of the fact they almost exclusively intermarried. So while we Americans, in particular, wouls tend to assume the royals of our discussions would be calling, visiting, writing, vacationing etc with each other all the time, it was rare they enjoyed each other's company.


I don't know....I was going by the large family gatherings of QV's extended family 'The Royal Mob' and by Christian IX's gatherings of his family. They seem to have met, in some form or another, quite frequently. QV's letters are full of whose coming to visit, whose just leaving, etc...Some of her grandchildren spent almost the entire summer with her. Also, the Court Circulars are full of various relatives coming and going either to see her or Bertie and Alexandra. And for the most part they seemed to be happy occasions. (Although one trip of Fritz & Vicky was ruined by the Schleswig-Holstein crisis with F&V and Bertie & Alexandra 'getting into it' until QV finally said 'no more!')
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 10, 2004, 03:16:12 PM
Ah yes, all that makes sense and tracks. I wonder how "relatives" could, especially given they traded places so frequently and became "loyal" to different nations, get to a point of such severe anger and hostility to allow their ministers to opt for wars or other tough actions. Seems like the interrlations of the royals would have averted such tragedies.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on November 10, 2004, 04:05:32 PM
Seems like all it accomplished was a lot of pain for all sides.  :( It was originally hoped, esp by Prince Albert, that a related royal Europe would allow for peace and progressive thought. Unfortunately for that lofty goal, forces beyond personal control would prevent personal relationships from mattering all that much.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Rhon on November 12, 2004, 07:42:32 PM
I just received a book called "Gathered Yesterdays" by Leila von Meister, a distant cousin. She and her husband apparently moved in high society circles and she actually attended the wedding of the Crown Prince and the lady she called, "Duchess Cecilia". She described her as having "a most amiable and captivating smile, revealing a delightful personality". She also wrote that it was so hot in the chapel that "it oozed heat".  There are several pages of descriptions of the event and it would be a good book for anyone who'd like to read about the German court before and during WWI.

Rhon
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 15, 2004, 09:38:25 AM
Thanks Rhon. That book sounds wonderful; but not showing up on Amazon or other sources I checked. Is if published in Europe?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Rhon on November 15, 2004, 06:43:45 PM
I heard about the book during my correspondence with the Adams Davidson Galleries regarding a portrait which turned out to be of the mother of the author, Leila Trapmann von Meister. I was able to order the book through Alibris, an online bookseller of rare and hard to find books. Leila's husband, Wilhelm von Meister, was apparently a German official called a "Landrant" in Homburg.  She writes about having the Kaiser at her home and various social activities, including a 1900 visit to meet Empress Frederick at Friedrichshof, which she described in detail. To quote a bit from that part of the book: "

"In appearance, she is very like Queen Victoria, only I should say better-looking, though of course I can't remember the Queen as anything but a very old lady. Still, I fancy as a younger woman the Empress must have had more looks and certainly very great charm, for this is still abundantly present in her clear straightforward eyes and her kind and gracious smile. You feel in the presence of a very distinguished Grande Dame."

I'm not at all knowledgeable about Imperial Germany, but I'm finding Leila's memoirs very interesting and I think anyone on this board would like to read the book, though it might be hard to find. Try Alibris or abebooks.com; I've had done business with both of them and found them to be reliable.

Rhon

The book was published in 1963 in London by Geoffrey Bles.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 16, 2004, 09:29:15 AM
Thank you for that information Rhon, indeed. There is such a "hidden" history of some of the most interesting personalities such as Cecelie, Empress Frederick the Fritz himself as well as others in the general German aristocracy. I think their lives and insights present an amazing wealth of historical perspective that helps bring clarity to some of the 'why things are the way they are'.
Did Cecelie or anyone near to her write about her toward the end of her life and her post WWII life?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Nathan_Davis on November 28, 2004, 05:33:25 PM
Crown Princess Cecilie is often remembered for her charm, tact, and utter lack of jealousy. Concerning the latter, it is widely believed that the Crown Prince, just before his marriage, had a torrid affair with the American opera singer Geraldine Farrar (1882-1967). If true, it speaks well of Cecilie that she went out of her way to make friends with Farrar and often invited her to visit the family both before and after the war.

Regards,

Nathan
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on November 28, 2004, 07:38:58 PM
Princess Victoria Louise (her sister-in-law) records in her autobiography:

"...I was overwhelmed with curiousity as to how a proper bride should look....I went through to have a look. Cecile's beauty, grace and charm filled me with astonishment....I went through..several times more in order to have a good look at her...Cecile's bewitching appearance at least conformed to the picture conjured up by my girlish fantasy..."
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on November 30, 2004, 11:12:31 AM
Did The Kaiser have a special raport with Cecilie?  I have always wondered why Cecilienhof was built for her, but I am not sure if any of the other daughters-in-law received something along these lines from The Kaiser.  Do we know what kind of relationship Dona had with Cecilie?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 30, 2004, 12:22:08 PM
From what I have read/heard, Wilhelm had a particular affection for the Crown Princess. Cecilie was well loved by everyone and had such a kind, generous and caring demeanor. Part of the reason for building Cecilienhof was for his son, Crown Prince Wilhelm, as a "war" gift in order to help soothe the problems of WWI. It was named for Cecilie, I think, because she picked the spot on which it was built and EW wanted to create a beautiful English estate for his beautiful daughter in law, although I was told this only be a tour guide. She did live there for many years up until the end of WWII when the allies through her out.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on December 09, 2004, 03:33:13 PM
Quote
Thanks Grandduchessella! ;) It is nice to know that apparently Cecilie tried to make life as normal as possible for Alexandrine, not hiding her away from the public. (KGV and Queen Mary could have taken a que from her) I hope she had a happy life...


By the time, Alexandrine was an adult, her mother could no longer care for her, and she spent the rest of her life in institutions.  
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on December 09, 2004, 03:36:05 PM
Quote
Crown Princess Cecilie is often remembered for her charm, tact, and utter lack of jealousy. Concerning the latter, it is widely believed that the Crown Prince, just before his marriage, had a torrid affair with the American opera singer Geraldine Farrar (1882-1967). If true, it speaks well of Cecilie that she went out of her way to make friends with Farrar and often invited her to visit the family both before and after the war.


Before his marriage???   crown Prince Wilhelm had an affair with Farrar even during the marriage, as with other women.  My grandfather was Farrar[s driver here in the USA.    A great-great-grandmother on my mother's side was a childhood playmate of the Kaiser.

BTW, Cecilie wrote her memoirs, published in English in the 1930s.
Regards,

Nathan

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on December 09, 2004, 03:37:52 PM
Quote
Cecilie remainined in Prussia until it was due time to leave Potsdam for the West.

Her eldest surviving son, Prince Louis Ferdinand, left Schloß Cadinen as the Russians approached and moved his family to Cecilienhof where Cecilie awaited them.  From here they left to the north of Germany, where they felt safe.


Hmmm ,,, think I read something about this recently :)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Nathan_Davis on December 09, 2004, 06:08:42 PM
Marlene, thanks for your comments re Farrar.   ;)  I always suspected as much. Were you ever to mention the Crown Prince in conversation with her, she would gaze at you wistfully with china-blue eyes, utter some poetic nonsense about "ardent youth," and then quickly change the subject...

Nathan
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 10, 2005, 11:57:12 AM
Was the death of Cecilie and her funeral a large media and well attended event? She was so on the edge of being a great personality of the 20th century when all came crashing down around her. Are there any photos of her in older ages?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 10, 2005, 08:47:58 PM
That photo of the Viktoria Luise and Cecelie is amazing! This must be from the early days of WWI. Were they integrated somehow into the military? I can't say the uniforms are very becoming; much prefer Cecelie in her usual high fashion gowns, dresses, tiaras and broadbrimmed hats.

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on January 10, 2005, 10:34:22 PM
I think it was prior to WW1--probably even before VL's wedding in 1913. VL and her sisters-in-law were all honorary commanders-in-chief of various regiments (just as Olga and Tatiana were in Russia as we've seen in their uniforms). VL's was the Death's Heads Hussars, I'm not sure of Cecile's but as Crown Princess it was probably pretty prestigious. I think Vicky had been Commander of the Death's Heads too--not sure about Augusta Victoria. VL was delighted in her regiment and loved to pose in her uniform--she told her father she regretted not being a boy so she could actually serve.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on January 11, 2005, 02:27:34 AM
Quote
I think it was prior to WW1--probably even before VL's wedding in 1913.  

I guess it was in 1912,Parade in Danzig -there were many photoes taken at that parade.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 11, 2005, 09:27:31 AM
Did the German court and media tend to treat VL and Cecelie on equal terms? They, themselves, were quite friendly and liked each other. Unlike the similar status of Diana and Princess Anne wherein Diana was always placed in a superior role/position to Anne, how did it tend to work with VL and Cecelie?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on January 11, 2005, 01:17:35 PM
Quote
Did the German court and media tend to treat VL and Cecelie on equal terms? They, themselves, were quite friendly and liked each other. Unlike the similar status of Diana and Princess Anne wherein Diana was always placed in a superior role/position to Anne, how did it tend to work with VL and Cecelie?


HK - you cannot compare the situations.  Berlin's media was largely controlled, with limited freedom of press.  Moreover, the German royals did not carry out the sheer number of duties in comparison today.  VL's primary goal was to marry, and marry well (perhaps another throne.)  However, according to her memoirs and other sources, she appears to have a good relationship with Cecilie (who was instrumental in helping encourage VL's relationship with EA.)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 11, 2005, 04:21:32 PM
I see. But, the media currently is controlled as well. My curiousity was indeed comparing the only daughter of the monarch's relationship with her sister in law...an identical situation but Diana and Anne were clear rivals in and out of the press, controlled or otherwise. The interesting point to me is how Viktoria and Cecelie related and were viewed in private and public situations. Any history in this regard?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on January 11, 2005, 04:25:33 PM
Quote
I see. But, the media currently is controlled as well. My curiousity was indeed comparing the only daughter of the monarch's relationship with her sister in law...an identical situation but Diana and Anne were clear rivals in and out of the press, controlled or otherwise. The interesting point to me is how Viktoria and Cecelie related and were viewed in private and public situations. Any history in this regard?


I guess that Cecile became 2nd lady of the realm after Dona. I've never read anything to suggest there was a rivalry between the 2--real or imagined. VL wasn't that old (a teen) when Cecile came into the family so that probably warded off any rivalries--unlike Anne & Diana where Anne had been entrenched in a certain position with certain responsibilities. Then VL married young so she would've been off doing her duties as Duchess of Cumberland. Cecile does seem to have taken her responsibilities seriously (more than Willy) with postcards & photos of the time showing her at various functions and charities.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on January 11, 2005, 04:31:01 PM
Quote
I see. But, the media currently is controlled as well. My curiousity was indeed comparing the only daughter of the monarch's relationship with her sister in law...an identical situation but Diana and Anne were clear rivals in and out of the press, controlled or otherwise. The interesting point to me is how Viktoria and Cecelie related and were viewed in private and public situations. Any history in this regard?


The British media is hardly fettered.  There are differences as in Britain, the daughter of the Sovereign is not expected to make a grand marriage (or have a marriage arranged for her), and leave the country to live somewhere else.  Cecilie was raised, knowing that she would marry outside her little duchy - and as the Kaiser's only daughter, Viktoria Luise, would be a grand candidate for a marriage.  Once VL married, she moved away - and had a different life.  When her first son was born, a British official was present for the birth, as the family was still recognized as British royals.

JOurnalism is far different today.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on January 11, 2005, 04:32:37 PM
"Then VL married young so she would've been off doing her duties as Duchess of Cumberland. Cecile does seem to have taken her responsibilities seriously (more than Willy) with postcards & photos of the time showing her at various functions and charities. [/quote]

Ella,  VL was never duchess of Cumberland.  She was the consort of the Duke of Brunswick .. she was also the de jure Crown Princess of Hannover until her husband succeeded as head of the house.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on January 11, 2005, 04:34:49 PM
Quote
"Then VL married young so she would've been off doing her duties as Duchess of Cumberland. Cecile does seem to have taken her responsibilities seriously (more than Willy) with postcards & photos of the time showing her at various functions and charities. Ella,  VL was never duchess of Cumberland.  She was the consort of the Duke of Brunswick .. she was also the de jure Crown Princess of Hannover until her husband succeeded as head of the house.


I swear to God my memory's going--I know who she was, I don't know what I had going on in my head. It's like the same error I repeated with the Norwegians--just unable to put the right name down (Haakon/Harold) when I know perfectly well who is who.  :-[ I think I get carried away typing too fast.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Martyn on January 12, 2005, 10:30:26 AM
The style of dress and hair look earlier to me, more in keeping with the styles of at least ten years earlier.  Might it be an old image, rereleased in wartime?  Like you both say, one would have thought that studio portraits would be low down on their list of priorities.......
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Martyn on January 12, 2005, 11:30:40 AM
I can see why you like that photo Brian.  Although posed, it has a very natural quality.  A charming domestic scene, very much in contrast to the other images of Cecilie, where she is attired and posed in a more formal fashion.
All her photos seem to have a lovely quality to them.  Was she really as warm as she appears in these images?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 12, 2005, 01:38:39 PM
Thanks GDElla! Now those are HATS! Do you suppose that the ornate clothing and heavily designed hats etc were disposed of, or given away, or somehow otherwise sent to museums or what?

Also, from all I have read/been told, Cecelie was indeed as charming in person as she was in appearance. The young Victoria Luise said, when VL first saw Cecilie at the Neues Palais upon Cecilie's first meeting of the royal family, that she was a lovely as a fairly tale princess and equally as kind and warm. One would have thought, therefore, her marriage would have been better, but I believe William III was a bit of a player.

It's interesting to ponder how Vicky and Cecilie would have related. I think they were probably much more alike than others in the family.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on January 26, 2005, 05:27:23 AM
I have been trying to decide: did Crownrincess Cecilie have a resemblance to her father or to her mother? Probably it's not the most important subject to discuss  ;) on Cecilie but I am really interested in. I finally have got an image of Cecilie's parents (where they are together).

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/royals/amffAP.jpg)

I guess a shape of her face Cecilie "got" from her father.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eurohistory on January 26, 2005, 08:56:17 AM
To me she has always looked more like a mecklenburg-Schwerin than a Romanov, particularly since she did not inherit the tired-looking, droopy eyelids of her mother's.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on January 26, 2005, 09:58:02 AM
She seems like a mix with probably the best features of each or perhaps a throwback to a grandparent. Her eyes are different from both--more tip-tilted--but seem to resemble her mother's in size and the deep color if not the eyelids.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on January 26, 2005, 10:14:32 AM
That is a lovely photo Sveta.
I agree that she seems to show a resemblance to both parents but her father especially. Anastasia had those extremly different looking eyes. Cecilie did not seem to inherit these (which in my opinion is kind of a good thing). Her sister Alexandrine on the other hand shows much more resemblance to their mother.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on January 27, 2005, 02:20:37 AM
Thank you all,Arturo,Ella and Alison,for your answers!
I agree Cecilie was a mix and more a Mecklenburg than Romanov. If Anastasia was a striking beauty,despite of her heavy eye-lids,Cecilie to my mind was a charming beauty,more soft and pleasant-looking than her mother.

Well, I'll try to compare Cecilie's features with her grandparents'  ;D - not a very serious pastime but so interesting sometimes!  ;)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 30, 2005, 04:22:20 PM
Your albums are sensational GDella! These pics really show the range of appearances Cecelie developed over the years. Her looks seem to go so well with her family's castle in Schwerin. It is to me one of the most majetic in Germany with many of the storybook motifs that exist with Neuschwanstein. Did she get a bit frumpy as the years went one?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on January 30, 2005, 06:26:36 PM
Glad you like them HerrKaiser--I tried to pick out some of the good ones for you.  ;)

She did get rather frumpish as she got older (not that having 6 children would do wonders for most women's figure) but I think it just made her look very approachable and motherly. You can see the evolution from 'bright young thing' and leader of society to a devoted mother and dedicated princess--her priorities had changed. She was able to take on her responsibilities as Crown Princess (visiting establishments, hospital, etc...) and as mother in a way Willy didn't seem to be able to. He maintained his figure through diligence but seemed to backburner most everything else (save for putting on his uniforms and chasing women). I think she did look rather nice though on formal occasions after the war (family weddings, etc...) in the flowing outfits of the 30s. They suited her figure and flattered her height.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 31, 2005, 09:20:13 AM
After she and young Wilhelm divorced, did Cecilie ever have any romantic liasons? Her dedication to her duties and family may not have afforded much time for creating new personal relationships, but she was definitely a
"catch". During times of extreme stress and difficulties, I wonder if she found any support/relief in the company of a love interest?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: crazy_wing on February 01, 2005, 03:33:54 AM
Quote
After she and young Wilhelm divorced, did Cecilie ever have any romantic liasons? Her dedication to her duties and family may not have afforded much time for creating new personal relationships, but she was definitely a
"catch". During times of extreme stress and difficulties, I wonder if she found any support/relief in the company of a love interest?


They didn't divorce though they did live separately after the war but I think their relationship with each other was alright.  

I doubt Cecilie had any romantic liasons since she still had two infant daughters and a few teenage sons to bring up after the war.  
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on February 24, 2005, 08:43:10 PM
There was a newspaper clip that read:

Crown Princess Cecilia, who since her marriage five years ago has become far and away the most popular member of the reigning house of Hohenzollern, and the recognized leader of fashion in Germany, for which I may say, parenthetically, she is particularly well qualified by her almost wholly Parisian education, is the active president of the Imperial German Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.

Apparently she was a crusader against vivisection.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on February 26, 2005, 04:21:24 PM
A lovely portrait in middle-age

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/hohenzollern/188620Cecilie1.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eurohistory on February 26, 2005, 08:12:31 PM
I think Kronprinzessin Cecilie remained popular throughout her life, even more so than her own son Louis Ferdinand who was very popular, and who could have, in my opinion, positioned himself as Germany's postwar leader had he been the head of the anti-Hitler movement.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marc on February 28, 2005, 07:47:22 AM
Does anyone have bigger portrait of Cecilie sitting in the chair wearing Meander Tiara?Very beautiful portrait!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 02, 2005, 09:20:40 AM
Wonderful photo of the great beauty Cecilie. Thanks so much GrandDuchess! I am thinking this must be circa 1925ish?

Was it customary for German royals to sign, in their own hand, their publicity photos? Or, is the handwritten 'Cecilie' the photographer?

Also, she (or whoever) wrote 'Kronprincessin' under her name. Was it usual to put their title in by hand? Seems a bit odd.

Thanks again! love the photos of Cecilie!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 02, 2005, 09:29:27 AM
Quote


They didn't divorce though they did live separately after the war but I think their relationship with each other was alright."

Willie was in exile for several years and was finally permitted to return to Germany in the mid-1920s.  Although the couple did appear together - such as their 25 wedding anniversary -- they lived largely separate lives.  "

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eurohistory on March 02, 2005, 10:33:15 AM
Quote
Wonderful photo of the great beauty Cecilie. Thanks so much GrandDuchess! I am thinking this must be circa 1925ish?

Was it customary for German royals to sign, in their own hand, their publicity photos? Or, is the handwritten 'Cecilie' the photographer?

Also, she (or whoever) wrote 'Kronprincessin' under her name. Was it usual to put their title in by hand? Seems a bit odd.

Thanks again! love the photos of Cecilie!



It does read KRONPRINZESSIN...I just checked my copy of this very popular postcard.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eurohistory on March 02, 2005, 10:34:09 AM
Quote
Thank you all,Arturo,Ella and Alison,for your answers!
I agree Cecilie was a mix and more a Mecklenburg than Romanov. If Anastasia was a striking beauty,despite of her heavy eye-lids,Cecilie to my mind was a charming beauty,more soft and pleasant-looking than her mother.

Well, I'll try to compare Cecilie's features with her grandparents'  ;D - not a very serious pastime but so interesting sometimes!  ;)


My pleasure...I like to share my knowledge...not hog it!  ;D

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on March 02, 2005, 02:48:15 PM
Quote
Wonderful photo of the great beauty Cecilie. Thanks so much GrandDuchess! I am thinking this must be circa 1925ish?



You're very welcome HerrKaiser. I thought this one was particularly interesting as by this period she tends to be shown in more matronly, even frumpy on occasion, outfits. This was was very attractive I think--love the bared shoulders. Not bad for a mother of 6!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: felix on March 09, 2005, 01:02:38 PM
This may be off track, but was looking in books and was struck by how much Cecilie and Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna the Elder looked alike!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eurohistory on March 09, 2005, 01:18:39 PM
You think so?  I see no resemblence between them...  :-[

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: felix on March 09, 2005, 01:29:37 PM
Just look at the noses, Marie was much bigger,but it is their.Cecilie even reminds me of Elena of Greece. They had perfect noses. No bumps or any of the long things.That were pasted off as beautiful.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eurohistory on March 09, 2005, 01:42:54 PM
Maria pavlovna and Helen obviously I see the resemblence...but other than what you mention of Cecilie's I see none...neither of us is correct or incorrect...just an appreiation.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: felix on March 09, 2005, 01:47:44 PM
Its the noses that tell the story! Look at all their perfect snubs, One would think Olga N. came from this family.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 09, 2005, 10:21:40 PM
Most definitely the Crown Princess Cecilie of Prussia. A mere 100 years ago, the toast of European royalty.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Kostya on March 10, 2005, 10:32:10 AM
can some one help me in this i heard that Cecelie had a had a retarded son(can't find another word right now)  if true how did she cope?  how was her life within the palace and how did the memebers of the royal family look up on it.  

great pictures!!!!! inlove with this woman
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: darius on March 10, 2005, 11:02:31 AM
I think it was her daughter Alexandra who suffered from some syndrome or another - I believe it is addressed in another thread.
I was wondering if Alexandra was the only QVD to suffer from a similar condition??
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: darius on March 10, 2005, 11:04:46 AM
Her name was Alexandrine Irene  
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 10, 2005, 12:52:56 PM
Quote
can some one help me in this i heard that Cecelie had a had a retarded son(can't find another word right now)  if true how did she cope?  how was her life within the palace and how did the memebers of the royal family look up on it.  

great pictures!!!!! inlove with this woman



The son was actually a daughter, Alexandrine, who suffered from Down Syndrome.   During her childhood, Alexandrine lived with her parents - lots of photos and postcards.  However, she was institutionalized as an adult.    The present head of the House of Prussia's only sister, Cecilie-Cornelie, is also severely retarded, and lives in an institution.  
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on March 10, 2005, 12:55:24 PM
Marlene, since you mention that Alexandrine was institutionalized, would you happen to know where?  Also, I know that Cecilie stayed in the Berlin area when her husband was in The Netherlands after the abdication...did she continue to reside at Schloss Cecilienhof?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 10, 2005, 02:11:10 PM
Quote
Marlene, since you mention that Alexandrine was institutionalized, would you happen to know where?  Also, I know that Cecilie stayed in the Berlin area when her husband was in The Netherlands after the abdication...did she continue to reside at Schloss Cecilienhof?


I don't believe the information was never made public regarding where Alexandrine was sent to live. That was a private family matter. yes Cecilienhof was one of the places she lived after the war.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Jane on March 10, 2005, 02:26:19 PM
I've always been rather favorably impressed by the way CP Wilhelm and CP Cecilie dealt with their daughter Alexandrine.  There are so many photos of Alexandrine with her family up until the time she was institutionalized as an adult; it doesn't seem like her parents made any effort to hide her away.  I have always been under the impression the the family were matter-of-fact about the whole thing, and were refreshingly ahead of their time in their attitude.  Can anyone shed more light on this?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: jfkhaos on March 10, 2005, 02:33:31 PM
..if only the Romanovs would have been more upfront with the Russian people rather than hiding Alexei's hemophilia.  It's possible that the sympathy of the Russians might have rested with the Imperial couple; the outcome could have been much different.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on March 10, 2005, 05:56:21 PM
It certainly was admirable. I don't know what would've been the result with Alexei. Alexandrine was behind 4 healthy sons (could daughters even assume the throne?) so there wasn't a chance of her being monarch. Also the Russian populace had a superstitious bent--the truth about Ena's son and heir was known (at least to some extent) and there were rumors that went around Spain that a soldier had to be sacrificed every day for his blood. Russia might've been similar. It certainly didn't gain Ena any sympathy and she had at least one son physically sound enough to rule (Juan).

Does anyone know why Alexandrine was institutionalized as an adult? I believe it was after Cecile's death. Did her condition worsen or did her siblings just not feel able to properly care for her? She seems to have been well-loved so I can't imagine it was undertaken to just get rid of her.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 10, 2005, 06:45:17 PM
The way in which the German Royal Family dealth with Alexandrine is part of the irony of the overall impression of the 'German way'.  At the same time King George and Queen Mary were hiding their epileptic son (cruelly and sadly), the Hohenzollerns were quite upfront and public with their downs syndrome Princess.

Similarly, Germans were more open and casual about nudity, sex, marital issues, social causes, care for the elderly, animal "rights", etc. However, these dispositions got funneled away from the long term good, and history does not have the common view of Germans having led the modern era in such arenas and attitudes.

As we have pointed out in many threads, had Vicky and Fritz been long-lived on the throne, combined with what appears to have been a next generation of socially conscious family members, such early social values could have evolved more powerful than the turn toward militarism.

Thanks for listening!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: koloagirl on April 28, 2005, 02:00:04 PM
 :)

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find it if it has!

The little girl with Downs Syndrome, Alexandrine of Prussia....can anyone tell me her full story?  I see from an image on the web that she lived at least to her (what looks like) early teens, but I was wondering at what age she lived to?  

I think it is remarkable that in a day and age when people with disabilities (certainly in Royal families i.e. Prince John) were shut away, that this little girl had postcards made of her and apparently was at least somewhat in the public eye.  I don't know her parentage, but would be interested to know who her forward-thinking royal parents were.  :)

Thanks!
Janet R.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Prince_Christopher on May 29, 2005, 12:18:13 PM
I am interested in royals who "gave it all up" to marry commoners.

Does anyone know anything about Princess Cecilie of Prussia, youngest daughter of the Crown Prince and Crown Princess of Germany? I believe she was born in 1917 and married an American soldier by the name of Mr. Harris during WWII.

They had one daughter, Kyra, and Princess Cecilie died fairly young. I know at one time she lived in Amarillo, TX.
I think Kyra Harris is married and has a son, I've seen their names on the list of succession to the British throne.

Does anyone know anything about her life with Mr. Harris, did she live in USA, when and how did she die and where is she buried? What did her family think of her common marriage to an American and why did she choose that course?

Thank you
Prince Christopher Ivanovich
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 29, 2005, 01:01:45 PM
I know there was a good bit of info in Marlene's QVD--it was the first I'd ever really heard of them. I don't have the book with me though.

Here's some info:
HRH Cecile Viktoria Anastasia Zita Thyra Adelheid
b. Schloss Cecilienhof, Potsdam, September 5 1917
d. Königstein im Taunus, April 21 1975

Married:
Schloss Hohenzollern, June 21 1949 Clyde Kenneth Harris (b. Maud, Oklahoma, April 18 1918, d. Amarillo, Texas, March 2 1958)

Child
Kira Alexandrine Brigid Cecilie Ingrid Harris
b. Amarillo, Texas, October 20 1954
m: Santa Fe, New Mexico, May 22 1982 John Mitchell Johnson in Dallas, Texas, May 12 1951. They divorced on April 23 1993.

Child:
Philip Louis Johnson (b. Fort Worth, Texas, October 18 1985)

So you can see that she was 32 when she married and 37 when her daughter was born so a bit 'elderly' by standards of the day. I think that she met him when he was stationed in Germany during the post-WW2 occupation. Since she died in Germany, perhaps she moved back to her native country after her husband died?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Prince_Christopher on May 29, 2005, 01:26:40 PM
Thanks, Grandduchessella for the information and pictures. Cecilie was certainly pretty as a youngster. I wonder why she waited so long to marry (the war, maybe?) and what her life was like in America.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 29, 2005, 12:43:05 PM
Does anyone know if Cecilie spent much official time in London and what the English thought of her?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: julia.montague on August 29, 2005, 02:58:39 PM
Has anyone read "Die Kronprinzessin" written by Viktoria Luise?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 29, 2005, 03:26:50 PM
Much about this book and Viktoria Luise is discussed on her thread here is the Hohenzollern forum.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Wettin on August 29, 2005, 06:00:11 PM
Lieber Herr Kaiser,
what do you mean by the words "here is the Hohenzollern forum." ?  Under "The Hohenzollern" I find a lot about Schleswig-Holstein, Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, Wettin etc. The book "Die Kronprinzessin" was written by a person who was a Hohenzollern by birth about a person who married into the Hohenzollern family (i e the sister-in-law of the author).  Would be grateful if you please point out to me where the aforementioned book is discussed. Thanks in advance.  
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 29, 2005, 11:25:55 PM
Many apologies, indeed, for my error. I totally misread your posting and thought you were looking for the bio of Viktoria Luise rather than Cecilie.

I actually do not know about the book to which you refer, but I will research. It sounds absolutely like something we all would love to read. Viktoria was a huge fan and lived in awe of her sister in law, Cecilie. In fact, Viktoria's first glimpse of Cecilie was as Cecilie arrived at the Neues Palais in Potsdam wearing a pink ensemble with a pink fur hat looking glorious. Viktoria thought she was the quintessential "fairy tale princess".
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: julia.montague on August 30, 2005, 10:19:10 AM
I didn't know of it, too. But when I was in the library the last time, I looked for the biographies and I found the book of Viktoria Luise, you know the one about herself. I have it myself at home, but the one in the library had many more pictures, so I looked through it. Then I saw another book which stood next to it, you couldn't read the title, while it was standing there, because the library signwas put over it, you could just see a monogram a C with a crown, so I took it out and looked through it, too. It's written by Viktoria Luise called "Die Kronprinzessin" and is about her sister in law Crownprincess Cecilie.
http://www.gebraucht-buch-versand.de/4_3872670271.htm
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Linnea on September 01, 2005, 07:40:14 AM
A book about Cecilie I can really recommend is "Erinnerungen" written by the Crown Princess herself.
(http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3733803043.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)(the cover is lovely!)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 02, 2005, 10:31:14 AM
In English, the title is "Memories". I have not read it, but yes indeed, the cover is captivating, and we can sometimes judge a book by its cover! This cover photo of the Crown Princess is a wonderful image, probably taken about 1910.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Linnea on September 02, 2005, 11:22:40 AM
"but yes indeed, the cover is captivating, and we can sometimes judge a book by its cover!"

You are right ;)! But the book is good anyway, it contains much about her childhood in Germany, France and Russia, how she got to know the Crown Prince, their marriage in 1905 etc.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 02, 2005, 02:42:14 PM
I am finding it impossible to locate this book! Amazon seems to be without any ability to obtain. Is it available in Germany? thanks!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Linnea on September 02, 2005, 03:26:16 PM
Try this: http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3733803043/qid=1123692548/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/028-3043224-5623743
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 02, 2005, 04:45:42 PM
Danke. Now I need to get one in english. All the best,
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 02, 2005, 05:26:14 PM
The English translation of CP Cecilie's memoirs are available from Royalty Digest bookshop.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 07, 2005, 08:09:07 PM
What was Cecilie's relationship with her brother's-in-law, in particular Eitel who lived through the latter 1920s and 1930s alone and seemingly lonely. Were they close? How did they relate during WWII?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Linnea on September 08, 2005, 03:55:32 AM
Quote
What was Cecilie's relationship with her brother's-in-law, in particular Eitel who lived through the latter 1920s and 1930s alone and seemingly lonely. Were they close? How did they relate during WWII?

Hmm, there is not much said about this in the books I´ve read. Eitel-Friedrich died in 1942 in Potsdam and was buried there, so Cecilie surely attended to his funeral. As a opponent of the nazis, no military tributes were allowed and all the guest had to come in civil. I don´t know if Eitel-Friedrich was too lonely as he had a very good relationship with his housekeeper (he also wanted to marry her, but the Kaiser didn´t think this was a good idea).
Here is a photo of Eitel-Friedrich and Cecilie standing beside each other:
(http://www.zum.de/psm/1wk/krer_karten/047.JPG)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 08, 2005, 10:36:19 AM
another great photo! What year was this? My favorite Cecilie is beginning to look a bit matronly and less glamorous as she often has appeared. August Wilhelm is shown here; he was a big supporter (at least early on) of A. Hitler. Did his political leanings create a rift amongst the brothers and wives?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Linnea on September 08, 2005, 11:25:04 AM
It was probably taken in 1912/13, I suppose. Well, August Wilhelm was a great supporter of the nazis. I only know that Wilhelm thought in the 1930s that Hitler might bring the monarchy back again, so he didn´t want to fall out with him and his party. There is also an anecdote about Cecilie, that, after Hitler had visited her husband, said:" Please open the windows! We want to get the smell out!". His siblings rather pitied him as he had always been the "rotten apple" of the family and he wasn´t the fave of his father, to say the least. There was a very good documentary about this topic on TV some months ago, called "Hitler und der Adel"(Hitler and the nobility), where also August Wilelm was focused on. A coment about him was "easy influenceable and inflammable". Goebels smiled at him and  said:"A poor little boysey who does much for the affair."
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Wettin on September 09, 2005, 08:02:04 PM
In my opinion the words of Cecilie after Hitler´s visit were typical for those of the German royalty and nobility who didn´t like him. He was naïvely regarded as an upstart whose political ideas weren´t seriously enough discussed to the detrement of the country. And honestly, his manners were very coarse.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on September 14, 2005, 11:23:59 AM

Prince Eitel Friedrich preferred male company, rather than female company.

Quote
Hmm, there is not much said about this in the books I´ve read. Eitel-Friedrich died in 1942 in Potsdam and was buried there, so Cecilie surely attended to his funeral. As a opponent of the nazis, no military tributes were allowed and all the guest had to come in civil. I don´t know if Eitel-Friedrich was too lonely as he had a very good relationship with his housekeeper (he also wanted to marry her, but the Kaiser didn´t think this was a good idea).
Here is a photo of Eitel-Friedrich and Cecilie standing beside each other:
(http://www.zum.de/psm/1wk/krer_karten/047.JPG)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: cimbrio on September 14, 2005, 11:39:52 AM
Quote
Prince Eitel Friedrich preferred male company, rather than female company.



I'll second that. I've read that Eitel-Friedrich was a closet homosexual, which seems to have been fairly common at the time within Royal boundaries; other cases of homo or bisexuality in male princes spring to mind: Ernest Louis of Hesse and the Rhine, his brother-in-law Serge of Russia, Grand Duke Nicholas Mikhailovich of Russia, Peter of Oldenburg (husband of Olga Alexandrovna of Russia), Ludwig II of Bavaria and his first royal lover, Paul von Thurn und Taxis... However, I do not recall where I've read that about Eitel Friedrich so don't take MY word for it...
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on September 14, 2005, 01:10:52 PM
I wrote about it but I was not the first

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: cimbrio on September 14, 2005, 01:35:30 PM
Hmm no, I've never read any of your works Marlene, sorry ;) It might have been on here, or some other webpage. I so look forward to having my own study/library at home, and I'll fill it with zillions of royalty books, I dare say there'll be some room for a copy of yours Marlene hehehehe Only today (and recently, over these past few days I'm spending in England) I've bought a bio on The Empress Frederick, Leopold II of Belgium, Haakon VII of Norway and also a handy book on Rulers of the British Isles, The Camera and the Tsars and others I do not recall just now, all for less than £40! Sadly, I've found a slight mistake in Hannah Pakula's book "An uncommon woman"; in one of the family trees, it says that Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg,s sons married the Queen of Spain and their son was Pedro V of Spain... still, 9 out of 10 for Pakula ;)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 20, 2005, 09:05:16 AM
I find no information on Cecilie's romantic life post-WWII. Any relationships to speak of? I had heard she had "made friends" with an American high ranking official, but no details. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 05, 2005, 06:04:14 PM
She was brought up in the 'anyone have this bigger thread' and thought it be interesting.

Quote
Little Princess Cecilie of Prussia
(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/royal/prussia/cecileprussia1917.jpg)
She was a real cutie and was also a beautiful young woman. Why didn´t she marry equally?


Quote
Cecilie fell in love with an American soldier who was a part of a team finding lost art works, stolen from different families.  

During the war, there was not a lot of opportunities to meet other royals.  She came to the US, became an American citizen, but always maintained her ties to her family, as her daughter has tried to, as well.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Prince_Christopher on October 05, 2005, 07:22:43 PM
I've always been interested in this princess but have found little information on her.

I know for a while, she lived in Amarillo, Texas, which I find intriguing.  If you've ever been to Amarillo, and imagined a European princess living there, you may understand what I mean.

Her husband was from Oklahoma.

Anyone know what her life in America was like?  Was she a typical American "housewife"?  Also, I wonder if she was close to her cousin, Viktoria Marina of Prussia, who also married an American commoner, Mr. Patterson, and made her home in New Mexico, not too far from Amarillo.

Did Cecilie return to live in Europe after her husband died and from what did she herself die of?

What does her daughter, Kyra Harris Johnson, do for a living?




Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on October 06, 2005, 09:08:41 AM
Quote
I've always been interested in this princess but have found little information on her.

I know for a while, she lived in Amarillo, Texas, which I find intriguing.  If you've ever been to Amarillo, and imagined a European princess living there, you may understand what I mean.

Her husband was from Oklahoma.

Anyone know what her life in America was like?  Was she a typical American "housewife"?  Also, I wonder if she was close to her cousin, Viktoria Marina of Prussia, who also married an American commoner, Mr. Patterson, and made her home in New Mexico, not too far from Amarillo.

Did Cecilie return to live in Europe after her husband died and from what did she herself die of?

What does her daughter, Kyra Harris Johnson, do for a living?







I can tell you that she was not close to Victoria Marina and that branch of the family, but maintained good ties with her siblings in Germany.    Kira Johnson lives a private life - she's a friend of mine, and I would never divulge anything about her private life.  
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 06, 2005, 04:56:20 PM
The road Cecilie's life took speaks tons to how a person's life can change. From daughter of the heir to the throne of the German Empire, arguably the monarchy with greatest power in terms of monarchial authority and national industrial output etc, to a housewife in Amarillo is quite a change. Apparently, all with diginity and grace and acceptance.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Danjel on October 06, 2005, 05:05:17 PM
another pic of Cecilie

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/daan73/CeciliePrssofPrussia1.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 06, 2005, 06:04:11 PM
wonderful picture, Danjel! This looks like a mid-1930s vintage, yes? Did she and her siblings get a more solid education in order to survive in the post-monarchy world?

This photo would be nice if taken a bit more wide so we could see her Mercedes (I assume it was such!).  ;)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Prince_Christopher on October 06, 2005, 06:33:10 PM
Quote
The road Cecilie's life took speaks tons to how a person's life can change. From daughter of the heir to the throne of the German Empire, arguably the monarchy with greatest power in terms of monarchial authority and national industrial output etc, to a housewife in Amarillo is quite a change. Apparently, all with diginity and grace and acceptance.


I agree with you so much here, HerrKaiser.  I guess that is one reason she is so intriguing.

One never knows what turns lie ahead....

BTW, thanks for the great picture, Danjel.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on October 07, 2005, 09:16:42 AM
Quote
another pic of Cecilie

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/daan73/CeciliePrssofPrussia1.jpg)


this may have been one of the last postcards of Cecilie published before the war.  
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: julia.montague on October 25, 2005, 03:03:43 PM
(http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/4968/scan004a2vs.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 30, 2005, 05:16:41 PM
But, why did Cecilie want to meet Anna? Was there some sort of higher motive? Was Cecilie particularly fond of her niece or desperately hopeful someone survived? thanks.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: stepan on December 30, 2005, 06:41:50 PM
Cecilie first met Anna Anderson in 1925 in the house of a inspector Grunberg who was involved in her case. I suppose Cecilie was interested in her Russian relatives and in the case of  Anna Anderson and as they were both in Berlin it was easy to arrange  a meeting. She later said that Anna looked like Xenia,the tsar´s sister and that she almost believed that it must be Anastasia.But she said that it was impossible to communicate with her as AA remained completely silent either from obstinasy or bewilderment. She could not decide which. Cecilie also confirmed what AA said about GD Ernst Ludwig´s trip to Russia in 1916. She had heard it from her father-in- law,the Kaiser. Cecilie continued to believe in Anna,met her again and corresponded with her until her death.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 30, 2005, 08:38:33 PM
I tghink it one of the things that baffled me, Anna knew about the "secret " trip of Ernie {that had been dismissed by history books until then). Cecilie was in a position to know, and I guess on that point I dismiss Anna any possibility of being a crazy German factory girl. Anna knew things and her appearance was not a fluke of history and needed more investigation. However Cecilie's son Louis Ferdinand was not convinced.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on January 02, 2006, 07:17:49 AM

Another photo from the same occasion in 1911. There is no Cecilie in the picture but you can see her mother, GDss of Mecklenbourg-Schwerin


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/ghtyu.jpg)

From left to right: GDss Anastasia, GDss Olga, GDss Anastasia Mikhailovna (Cecilie's mother), Empress Alexandra, Tsarevitch Alexey, GDss Maria, GDss Maria Pavlovna-elder, GDss Viktoria Fedorovna (Ducky), GDss Olga Alexandrovna, GDss Tatiana
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 03, 2006, 08:59:03 AM
These group photos are great where the royals are caught in such a moment. It begs the question..what situations were there that they stood in what appears to be a photo op-style? Who was in the crowd looking at them and who would have taken the pictures? These seem much more like when celebs leave an event or arrive somewhere and pause for casual photos and accomodate the paparazzi.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 03, 2006, 02:28:19 PM
Quote
These group photos are great where the royals are caught in such a moment. It begs the question..what situations were there that they stood in what appears to be a photo op-style? Who was in the crowd looking at them and who would have taken the pictures? These seem much more like when celebs leave an event or arrive somewhere and pause for casual photos and accomodate the paparazzi.


Yes, they seem off guard. Hence I wonder if there was a practice of presenting themselves in public and standing there for public viewing and photos? Did they ever intermingle with their subjects? thanks!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Teddy on February 03, 2006, 02:39:42 PM
Svetabel, from which book did you got those last picutes?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on February 04, 2006, 06:48:17 AM
Quote
Svetabel, from which book did you got those last picutes?


Do you mean that group-photo? It's from a well-known book "Nikolay II. THe Last Emperor of Russia", by M.Iroshnikov, L.Protzay and Yu.Shelaev. The English variant of this book is "The Sunset of the Romanovs".
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 20, 2006, 10:07:47 PM
Princess Alexanderine of Prussia

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/Alexandrine.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 03, 2006, 10:19:38 AM
When did Cecelie actually move into Cecelienhof in Potsdam? I know it was in the midst of WWI. Did she remain there during the revolution and afterward? Was she ever in danger?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Bernardino on March 17, 2006, 01:48:52 PM
Hello  :)

While it’s clear that some of Prince Louis Ferdinand’s sons marriages were not dynastic, I have some doubts about the dynastic validity (dependant of the head of the House) of some other marriages since 1918:

1 ) Pr Wilhelm Viktor (1919-1989), marriage to Marie Antoinette, Ctss Hoyos, Bss zu Stichsenstein.

2 ) Pr Hubertus (1909-1950), 1st marriage to Bss Maria Anna von Humboldt-Dachroeden (div. 1943)

3 ) Pr Friedrich (1911-1966), marriage to Lady Brigid Guinness. If this marriage was dynastic, I believe those of their children were not.

I would appreciate corrections and additions.

Thank you in advance.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 17, 2006, 01:51:50 PM
Quote
Hello  :)

While it’s clear that some of Prince Louis Ferdinand’s sons marriages were not dynastic, I have some doubts about the dynastic validity (dependant of the head of the House) of some other marriages since 1918:

1 ) Pr Wilhelm Viktor (1919-1989), marriage to Marie Antoinette, Ctss Hoyos, Bss zu Stichsenstein.

2 ) Pr Hubertus (1909-1950), 1st marriage to Bss Maria Anna von Humboldt-Dachroeden (div. 1943)

3 ) Pr Friedrich (1911-1966), marriage to Lady Brigid Guinness. If this marriage was dynastic, I believe those of their children were not.

I would appreciate corrections and additions.

Thank you in advance.


All three marriages were dynastic.  You are right concerning the marriages of Friedrich's sons.  However, none sought permission to marry from LF as well.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Bernardino on March 17, 2006, 02:15:28 PM
Thank you for the reply  :)...

Do you know if the grand-children of Pr Friedrich are considered Princes in Britain?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 17, 2006, 02:51:06 PM
Quote
Thank you for the reply  :)...

Do you know if the grand-children of Pr Friedrich are considered Princes in Britain?

No, they are not.  They use the surname von Preussen
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Bernardino on March 17, 2006, 03:06:55 PM
Oh so these non-dynastic British Hohenzollerns are X/Y von Preussen and the German ones are X/Y Prinz/Prinzessin von Preussen...

:)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 21, 2007, 07:22:13 PM
Celebration time! This month is the 100th anniverary of the maiden voyage of the Kronprinzessin Cecilie from Bremerhaven to New York. The fabulous 4-stacker name sake of the princess was one of the most, if not the most, luxurious ship of her time and even had private dining rooms within the more expensive suites in first class. American millionaires and European royalty loved the ship. Orville and Wilbur Wright, ironically, crossed on the ship in 1909 after having spent much time in Germany gaining engineering expertise and help from German aero engineers. There is no documentation, however, that Cecilie herself sailed on the ship.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Learning on September 24, 2007, 08:46:40 AM
Cecilie lived in Potsdam until the Russians came, correct? Where did she live afterwards? Was she able to maintain any style or was she destitute like the rest of Germany?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on September 24, 2007, 11:36:05 AM
Yes Cecilie lived in Schloss Cecilienhof at Potsdam until forced to flee the incoming Soviet troops. Although living in reduced circumstances later in life she could hardly be called destitute. She is buried next to her estranged husband in the garden cemetery of Schloss Hohenzollern above Hechingen in Germany. She had lived not far away. 
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on September 24, 2007, 05:02:44 PM
Wasn't there also an issue of renunciation? The various German Kings, Princes and Dukes all had that as part of their agreements. I don't think Karl & Zita did (and Karl made his disastrous attempt at return) and thus lost everything. I think some of the Austrian Archdukes/duchesses who did swear allegiance to the new government retained some properties and monies.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 25, 2007, 11:32:14 AM
Wasn't there also an issue of renunciation? The various German Kings, Princes and Dukes all had that as part of their agreements. I don't think Karl & Zita did (and Karl made his disastrous attempt at return) and thus lost everything. I think some of the Austrian Archdukes/duchesses who did swear allegiance to the new government retained some properties and monies.


Yes, the gernman nobility essentially "settled out" of the disastrous turmoil and saved for themselves a decent lifestyle of reasonable wealth. Essentially, as in the courts today, it was smarter to settle for something than risk a fight and lose everything as was with the Austrians.

Cecilie did make Cecilienhof her residence between the wars and during WWII. While the Hohenzollerns did lose the vast majority of their wealth and riches, they were hardly destitute by any measure. Some relatives did not fare so well, but those who had business ties or who had parlayed their property wealth into other investments did OK by any measure. The key reason the German royals were able to get something of their wealth was that the German communist revolution, while bringing an end to German involvemetn in the war and crumbling the autocracy, did not take hold due to the counter revolutionary will of the general poplulation. so, unlike the Romanovs, the Hohenzollerns saved their lives and some cash.

The invading and murderous Russian army at the end of WWII forced Cecilie to flee for her life from her namesake home of 25 years. Ceclienhof was not destroyed by bombs, and like nearly all structures that were liveable, the Allies confiscated the property for their own needs. This happened all over the nation; homes of Germans were taken over with no compensation given to owners and the owners left to fend for themselves in a land of rubble and ash.

Cecliie went to live near her son Louis Ferdinand near Stuttgart after her flight from Potsdam. She remained there until her death in the mid 1950s and is buried near the crown prince in the Hohenzollern castle not too far from Hechingen in Baden.

Louis Ferdinand was blessed with a long life and had the grand opportunity to be the guest of honor at the rededication of the Berlin Catherdral in 1994. The structure was destroyed in WWII and after 50 years, was painstakingly restored to its original grandeur. Louis was at the services of dedication along with Helmut Kohl and other notables. It was a moment of having gone full circle for this man.

Interestingly, Louis would have been 100 this year. he died exactly 13 years ago tomorrow at age 87. His birth date is November 9, the day the Berlin Wall was broken through by citizens in 1989.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 25, 2007, 01:42:11 PM
Partly due, it would seem, to her renowned beauty and photogenic qualities, the crown princess' portrait photographers positioned her in innovative, new poses that for the time were revolutionary in terms of design and the art of portrait photography. two good examples kneeling on a chair and on the floor with her young boys.

(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/eurochief/kneelingonchair.jpg)


(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/eurochief/Withkids.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on September 25, 2007, 06:16:01 PM
It is worth noting that the Berlin Cathedral was not destroyed like the Frauenkirche in Dresden. The outer walls were all still intact. It was not such a difficult task to restore the inside. The Nazi German state was responsible for the destruction of Germany. It was a huge mistake and was only possible due to the destruction of the Hohenzollern monarchy and then the Weimar Republic. It was a huge disaster for the German people and the rest of Europe.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 25, 2007, 07:42:24 PM
It is worth noting that the Berlin Cathedral was not destroyed like the Frauenkirche in Dresden. The outer walls were all still intact. It was not such a difficult task to restore the inside.

the outer walls were structural. It is not true that the task of restoring the inside was 'not such a difficult task'. It was a VERY difficult task to restore and rebuild details that were nearly impossible to replicate after almost 100 years. Materials alone were hard to duplicate much less the craftsmenship to do the artful restoration.

the frauenkirche was a total loss, walls included, and less time to reconstruct. I was deepling involved with the Frauenkirche rebuild, mostly due to funding. but comparing the two buildings is irrelevant to the point.

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Espella on September 25, 2007, 09:10:14 PM
Thank you HerrKaiser for that detailed response.  It must be nice to renounce your title, keep your castles and money and continue to call yourself Grand Duke ...  You're probably right that the Zollerns and the other dukes didn't have the Communists breathing down their necks, but I still think there was a bit of leniency.  The Americans and French probably didn't give a whit about the castles as long as reparations were made which history says were horrendous.  That leaves the British, and I think the family connectedness of everyone allowed the Germans to basically keep everything. 

Did the Zollerns sell Ceceliehof and the other hofs and that's why they're hotels now?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on September 25, 2007, 09:22:27 PM
The restoration of the Berliner Dom was not a difficult task. Far more difficult work was done elsewhere. 
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 25, 2007, 10:41:36 PM
Thank you HerrKaiser for that detailed response.  It must be nice to renounce your title, keep your castles and money and continue to call yourself Grand Duke ...  You're probably right that the Zollerns and the other dukes didn't have the Communists breathing down their necks, but I still think there was a bit of leniency.  The Americans and French probably didn't give a whit about the castles as long as reparations were made which history says were horrendous.  That leaves the British, and I think the family connectedness of everyone allowed the Germans to basically keep everything. 

Did the Zollerns sell Ceceliehof and the other hofs and that's why they're hotels now?

thanks Espella. However, the Brits did NOTHING to assist there relatives or the German people in general; the Hohenzollerns were basically on their own to deal with their losses the best they could. Money and saving ones' own skin does funny things to people and nations. A very few Brits, realizining the devasstation unleashed upon a civiliian population unlike any other in human history, came forth and provided some sense of compassion, but it was the American Marshalll Plan that did the most good. the main beneficiary of the Marshalll plan was England (hello! can we spell pork barrel?), but it did benefit Germany too. the Windsors (aka Saxe Coburgs) turned a blind eye to the misery of their relatives on the continent...again, just like in WWI.

Today and since 1945, the conventioinal wisdom is the Germany "deserved" all the terror bombing, civilian killings, etc because of the Holocaust. Makes sense except no one knew of the Holocaust until AFTER the war was essentially over. hmmmmm. If judged by today's standards, Churchill and Harris would be war criminals in the view of the common man. Any anti war person worth his/her salt is horrified by the milliions of civilian deaths in Germany wrought by the carpet bombing/terror bombing strategy intended to kill civilians and destroy EVERYTHING, military or not. Germany and the Nazis were the cause, but the civilians--and architecture--  bore the brunt of their sins.

Anyway, the Allies did get their reparations and Germany paid through the nose...even to this day or at least recently. My last Audi purchase had a line item on the invoice for war reparations..in 1994.

I'm not sure who recieved sales dollars for any properties sold after the war. Kronberg, for example, was regained by the Hesse Darmstadt family, I believe. Now a fabulous hotel. Cecilienhof is very luxurious hotel as well. Not sure who owns it, but the hotelier Kempinski does an excellent job at converting former, destroyed glory to current wonders such as the Wettin palace in Dresden Taschenbergpalais.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Learning on September 26, 2007, 08:59:20 AM
Anyway, the Allies did get their reparations and Germany paid through the nose...even to this day or at least recently. My last Audi purchase had a line item on the invoice for war reparations..in 1994.

Huh? I thought reparations were forgiven when the US needed German help during the Cold War? And, were reparations taxes on individuals? I thought that they were payments by the government.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 26, 2007, 09:09:12 AM
Anyway, the Allies did get their reparations and Germany paid through the nose...even to this day or at least recently. My last Audi purchase had a line item on the invoice for war reparations..in 1994.

Huh? I thought reparations were forgiven when the US needed German help during the Cold War? And, were reparations taxes on individuals? I thought that they were payments by the government.


The reparations were definitely not forgiven. Both the government (people) and businesses were tagged with payouts and the government still pays on some of the continuing reparations agreements. for example, one of my cousins who is Jewish is able to travel to Germany from the U.S. completely paid for by the German government.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on September 26, 2007, 10:54:01 AM
Germans have to live with their history. I have German relations, speak German  and have been to Germany many times so I know about it warts and all. The former West Germany got on its feet due to a massive injection of American funding called Marshall Plan Aid after World War 2.  After world war one the real problem was hyperinflation and then the Great Depression. The Weimar Republic was starting to get on its feet until the 1929 Wall Street Crash. Of course ripping the monarchy out of Germany at the end of ww1 was very stupid as it lead to inevitable political instability. The Americans though have never liked monarchy so Wilson put a spanner in the works. Sadly ww1 should never have taken place and nothing Hitler ever did ever benefited Germany. 
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on September 26, 2007, 11:21:32 AM
Yes, the Germans do live with their history day in day out. That's what usually happens to the vanquished. As a result, Germany is arguably one of the most human rights oriented, socially conscious nations in the world. Japan emerged in much the same manner. Being crushed and then being forced to acknowledge one's deeds yields a positive result.

on the other hand, the victors get an open door to keep going like that bunny on TV. I'm a staunch, flag waving American, but let's face it, America's bad history, England's bad history, France's bad history etc, get swept under the rugs leaving the appearance their histories are cleaner than those who happen to get beaten up worse.

dmitri, do you know the book "the pity of war" by Niall Ferguson? It underscores your point about the monarchy in Germany.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 26, 2007, 09:52:23 PM
Maybe we should get back to Cecilie ?  ???
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Espella on September 26, 2007, 10:20:36 PM
Yes, maybe we should get back, but I want to continue this discussion under whatever thread.  HerrKaiser is so informative, he makes me want to go get some history books.  However, since I didn't look at your profile, I thought you were German.  I didn't know the Germans suffered such a loss of civilian life until watching WWII by Ken Burns the other night.  However, HK, I don't see how that's any different from the bombing of England.  You seem to suggest that the Allies were not justified.

Also, since I'm also "learning," I thought the German government simply budgeted for reparations out of their yearly budget and remitted them to the powers that be, and that lasted for a few years.  I didn't know there was a reparations tax on people and businessses just like a sales tax!!!! and it even goes on now.  When will it be finished?  How is it divided up?  What is it used for?

Okay, under what thread should our discussion go?

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Yseult on October 16, 2007, 12:22:12 PM
Here is one that epitomizes her youthful beauty as crown princess and truly an early 20th century prototype for Princess diana.

(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/eurochief/glamourshot.jpg)

I´m sure it´s a wonderful picture...but I would like to see it in a bigger version, if possible ;)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 16, 2007, 01:35:00 PM
That's one of my favourites too, here you are:
(http://inlinethumb34.webshots.com/23201/2768590270100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

And a couple of similar ones:
(http://inlinethumb53.webshots.com/23668/2225933120100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

(http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/22758/2582312270100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

I must confess to seeing no similarity at all with Diana. She was far more restrained in her style and far more balanced as a personality
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 16, 2007, 04:33:24 PM
I misled...I did not mean Cecilie looked like Diana. Rather that she had a uniquely beautiful character, physical beauty, charm, and grace that resulted in a huge amount of public adoration and popularity that the royal family was unaccustomed to. In this regard, she was like diana.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 16, 2007, 05:46:03 PM
Yes, I appreciate the comparison that you are making; Cecilie was indeed very popular, but it seems to me the nature of that popularity was somewhat different, she did not become the object of a rather febrile personality cult in the same way as Diana did. When I think of Diana, I am reminded much more of Elisabeth of Austria, another woman who was never entirely secure in herself (something that one could certainly not say of Cecilie).
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 17, 2007, 10:52:39 AM
Yes, I appreciate the comparison that you are making; Cecilie was indeed very popular, but it seems to me the nature of that popularity was somewhat different, she did not become the object of a rather febrile personality cult in the same way as Diana did. When I think of Diana, I am reminded much more of Elisabeth of Austria, another woman who was never entirely secure in herself (something that one could certainly not say of Cecilie).


I do agree with your points. Cecilie was very secure in the knowledge that she was a big asset to the royal family and she was also secure in her views on life, family, nature, the future, and the past. She was awed by many not for the same exact things Diana was held in esteem, but the celebrity of each, acheived and earned for different reasons/events/personalities, was a similarly high level.

it would have been nice to see how each would have performed as queen and empress.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 17, 2007, 11:09:44 AM
Absolutely.

I'm sure Cecilie would have made an excellent Empress (just as Elizabeth, wife of George VI, made an excellent Queen). That's relatively easy to predict because we know how she was in her later years, but Diana might have changed in unforeseeable ways as she grew older!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Yseult on October 18, 2007, 01:38:23 PM
Adagietto, your postcards of Cecilie are wonderful...I don´t know so much about the lady, but she seems a very template and sweet woman. Dou you know anything about her relationship with her sister, queen Alexandrine, and her sister-in-law Victoria Louise? Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 18, 2007, 02:43:03 PM
She certainly got on very well with VL. Although there was only about six years difference in their ages, VL was only 12 at the time of Cecilie's marriage, and I get the impression that she rather hero-worshipped her. Later Cecile was able to help VL when she fell in love with Ernst August. The situation was of course a difficult one because his family was on such bad terms with the Hohenzollerns as a result of the Prussian annexation of Hannover, and Cecilie was an ideal person to act as an intermediary between VL and EA because she was his sister-in-law (one of EA's sisters was married to her brother). VL wrote a book about Cecilie in her later years, Die Kronprinzessin, which should reveal a lot about their relationship; I bought a copy recently but haven't got round to reading it.

I don't know about Cecilie and Alexandrine, someone else may be able to help out on that.

Here are one or two pictures of the young VL in Cecilie's company. On shipboard with the Kaiser, Adalbert and some of Cecilie's children:
(http://inlinethumb16.webshots.com/25359/2098152190100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

Out riding together:
(http://inlinethumb25.webshots.com/22424/2800999610100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

In the uniforms of the regiments of which they were the 'Chefs':
(http://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/22756/2735311950100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 18, 2007, 02:52:03 PM
thanks adagietto, all that is interesting and true. Cecilie was hero-worhipped by VL. in fact, when Cecilie arrived as the bethrothed to the crown prince for the first time at the neues palais in Potsdam, the occasion was a very big event. Viktoria was a child and witnessed the pomp and revelry from a window in the palace and was awestruck by her first sight of Cecilie. Viktoria wrote that Cecilie looked like a true fairytale princess arriving in all her beauty and grace to meet her prince charming. On that occasion, Cecilie was wearing a gorgeous all-pink outfit including a pink fur hat and muff. it must have been delightful.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Yseult on October 18, 2007, 03:40:38 PM
Very interesting...
Another question...I was wondering myself how managed Cecilie the scandalous private life of her mother, Stassie. I meant...at these times, there was a good deal of gossip about the death of Stassie´s husband and about the love life of Stassie. If I´m not wrong, Stassie had a son out of wedlock and it was not a secret...
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Learning on October 18, 2007, 09:00:31 PM
I am just starting to lean about Princess Cecille. Is it true that she and the Crown Prince drifted apart - not divorcing and not completely cutting off contact, but living apart? Is it true that after the war she embraced the Republic? I know she was very popular and her husband was not necessarily so. Was she very bitter about how her life turned out?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 19, 2007, 05:42:34 AM
Drifting apart is probably a good way of putting it, the prince had a roving eye and was by no means a faithful husband, and circumstances - the war, and the prince's period of exile - increasingly tended to separate them. As far as one can tell, though, they reached some sort of accommodation, and they seem to have remained on fairly good terms with one another. Immediately after the war the prince went into exile lin the Netherlands like his father, living on the former island of Wieringen, while Cecilie remained in Germany with the children, taking care of their education etc.  In 1923 he was allowed to return and was reunited with Cecilie at Schloss Oels in Silesia, and was able to see the house that Cecile had had built in Potsdam during his absence, the Cecilienhof. Though the prince would certainly have liked to recover his inheritance, both he and Cecilie seem to have adapted quite graciously to their new new circumstances. To be able to live as a privileged private citizen had certain advantages too. The prince was quite popular before the war. Although I personally don't find him an appealing character, he apparently had considerable charm and was able to get on well with people of all kinds. Altogether an easier man to deal with and associate with than his father. Though he had some comparable limitations in outlook.

Here is Cecilie riding with her husband and son before the war:
(http://inlinethumb57.webshots.com/23224/2463520550100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)


The Crown Prince at Schloss Oels in 1923/4:
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/linschoten/Royal/c1.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on October 19, 2007, 11:35:30 AM
awww those are good pictures of Cecile!  :D

here's a picture i found of Cecile's daughters

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Hohenzollern/dbc3_1_sbl.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Learning on October 19, 2007, 11:38:32 AM
I am also just starting to learn about Crown Prince Wilhelm. From what I gather he was rather a dashing figure who enjoyed life and its comforts.

However, the literature I have seen is not sympathetic. It paints him as self-absorbed, cruel in wasting lives during the war, and relatively unconcerned with his family responsibilities during and after WWII. I read a quotation from a French officer after WWII in which the officer basically said "the whole world is suffering, your family is suffering, and all you care about is yourself." Is this accurate? Had he been more realistic could he have taken the throne after the first war?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 19, 2007, 12:17:09 PM
as is clearly visible, Cecilie began to age and acheive that "matronly" look of a little frumpiness way too early in her life. Her grand era was 1905 to the middle of the war, a mere 10 years and her day in the limelight was cut short.

She did not leave center stage, so to speak, but her glamour and elegantness was severely diminished with the ravages of war, broken homelife, and the stresses of post war Germany.

Her husband was indeed a popular man. the irony of German leaders is that the good ones either die young or miss their chances; the not so good ones keep going like that bunny on TV.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 19, 2007, 12:35:53 PM
I am also just starting to learn about Crown Prince Wilhelm. From what I gather he was rather a dashing figure who enjoyed life and its comforts.

However, the literature I have seen is not sympathetic. It paints him as self-absorbed, cruel in wasting lives during the war, and relatively unconcerned with his family responsibilities during and after WWII. I read a quotation from a French officer after WWII in which the officer basically said "the whole world is suffering, your family is suffering, and all you care about is yourself." Is this accurate? Had he been more realistic could he have taken the throne after the first war?

I have not facts about this French officer's  quote, but the last people I would consider credible in their comments about anything German after WWI would be the French military and government.

One must remember that the 11/11/18 Armistice was a truce. The German people thought the next steps were peace negotiations. In the midst of an internal revolution, a truce was almost the only option and it was also welcomed by the allied forces. During the subsequent months, the Germans were horrified to be excluded from peace discussions. they had after the armistice obediently disarmed (the allies did not) and believed the Armistice terms were for everyone to do so. When the Germans were presented with the terms of the treaty, they rejected it hands down, but were then threatened with a ultimatum of death and destruction in 24 hours of they would not sign. Having disbanded the military and unable to muster any defense to the threat, they were forced to sign. So began Act II to WWI...the preparation for WWII.

Wilhelm was raised on the gilded age of peace and prosperity. No wars for over 30 years which was a record at the time. Economy was great. Everything was booming in a good way. His view of his own future was quite rosey and his children had even more of that view of life. Two of his boys became quite popular in American business concerns and friends with leading busienss and social figures.

I believe he and Cecilie would have had a very wonderful life, leadership, and would have achieved greater popularity as time went on had WWI not put an end to their entire situation.

Interesting trivia tid bit is that Wilhelm is the last true leader of troops in battle who was actually the nation's leader or #2. Since then, only the poor suckers who have no power get thrown into battle.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 19, 2007, 01:25:44 PM
She did come to look rather matronly, but then she was the mother of a sizeable family! All the same, I think she looked good all through her life. Here in the mid-20's:

(http://inlinethumb40.webshots.com/23911/2902676220100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Learning on October 19, 2007, 04:01:00 PM
Thanks again, Herr Kaiser. Sorry if I wrote confusingly, but the French officer quotation was after WWII, when he was briefly in French custody near the family castle in Hohenzollern. I believe it was from a book "Life of Crown Prince Williiam." I have it someone in storage. (I hate not having all my books nearby!)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Learning on October 19, 2007, 04:02:17 PM
With the Red Army nearing Potsdam in the closing days of World War II, Cecille went to Stuttgart correct? Did she have relatives there with whom she stayed?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 20, 2007, 12:46:25 PM
If I remember rightly she first went to Bad Kissingen in Bavaria, where she was able to take refuge with the family of a former court doctor.  It was Louis Ferdinand, I think, who eventually arranged something for her in or near Stuttgart.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 20, 2007, 10:13:36 PM
Art wrote this earlier in the thread:

"Cecilie remainined in Prussia until it was due time to leave Potsdam for the West.

Her eldest surviving son, Prince Louis Ferdinand, left Schloß Cadinen as the Russians approached and moved his family to Cecilienhof where Cecilie awaited them.  From here they left to the north of Germany, where they felt safe.

Cecilie's nephew, Duke Christian Ludwig of Mecklenburg-Schwerin suffered a different fate.  Initially he left with his parents, who received refuge at Louisenlund, a Schleswig-Holstein property, but then Christian Ludwig decided to make one last return to Schwerin to retrieve more family heirlooms.  Unfortunately he was caught while doing so and sent to a prisoner of war camp in Russia.  For almost ten years he was feared lost/killed until in the 1950's he reappeared among a contingent of prisoners of war  exchanged between the Soviet Union and the Allies. "
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 20, 2007, 10:26:02 PM
thanks adagietto, all that is interesting and true. Cecilie was hero-worhipped by VL. in fact, when Cecilie arrived as the bethrothed to the crown prince for the first time at the neues palais in Potsdam, the occasion was a very big event. Viktoria was a child and witnessed the pomp and revelry from a window in the palace and was awestruck by her first sight of Cecilie. Viktoria wrote that Cecilie looked like a true fairytale princess arriving in all her beauty and grace to meet her prince charming. On that occasion, Cecilie was wearing a gorgeous all-pink outfit including a pink fur hat and muff. it must have been delightful.

I had written this earlier in the thread:

"Princess Victoria Louise (her sister-in-law) records in her autobiography:

"...I was overwhelmed with curiousity as to how a proper bride should look....I went through to have a look. Cecile's beauty, grace and charm filled me with astonishment....I went through..several times more in order to have a good look at her...Cecile's bewitching appearance at least conformed to the picture conjured up by my girlish fantasy..." "
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Stasie on October 22, 2007, 03:11:11 PM
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/otmaa/alexprussia1915-5.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/otmaa/alexprussia1915-3.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa312/otmaa/alexprussia1915-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on October 22, 2007, 03:55:10 PM
Down syndrome or trisomy 21 (usually Down's Syndrome in British English[1]) is a genetic disorder caused by the presence of all or part of an extra 21st chromosome. It is named after John Langdon Down, the British doctor who described it in 1866. The disorder was identified as a chromosome 21 trisomy by Jérôme Lejeune in 1959. The condition is characterized by a combination of major and minor differences in structure. Often Down syndrome is associated with some impairment of cognitive ability and physical growth as well as facial appearance. Down syndrome can be identified during pregnancy or at birth.

Individuals with Down syndrome can have a lower than average cognitive ability, often ranging from mild to moderate learning disabilities. Developmental disabilities often manifest as a tendency toward concrete thinking or naïveté. A small number have severe to profound mental disability. The incidence of Down syndrome is estimated at 1 per 800 to 1,000 births.

Many of the common physical features of Down syndrome also appear in people with a standard set of chromosomes. They may include a single transverse palmar crease (a single instead of a double crease across one or both palms), an almond shape to the eyes caused by an epicanthic fold of the eyelid, upslanting palpebral fissures, shorter limbs, poor muscle tone, a larger than normal space between the big and second toes, and protruding tongue. Health concerns for individuals with Down syndrome include a higher risk for congenital heart defects, gastroesophageal reflux disease, recurrent ear infections, obstructive sleep apnea, and thyroid dysfunctions.

Early childhood intervention, screening for common problems, medical treatment where indicated, a conducive family environment, and vocational training can improve the overall development of children with Down syndrome. Although some of the physical genetic limitations of Down syndrome cannot be overcome, education and proper care will improve quality of life.



here's a little information about Down syndrome itself
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 22, 2007, 04:32:10 PM
Here are one or two pictures of her in family groups, or at family gatherings, which show very well,  I think, how she was regarded and treated within the family.

(http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/23225/2444068680100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Crown Princess Cecilie can be seen here with her children and most of the main members of the former imperial family; Alexandrine can be seen in the centre at the front.


(http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/23037/2484763490100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Beside her mother at the celebrations of the Silver Wedding of the Crown Prince and Princess at Huis Doorn, the Kaiser's home in the Netherlands.

(http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/22920/2234180560100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
At the confirmation of Princess Herzeleide, the daughter of her uncle Prince Oskar, second from the right at the front.

I have posted this elsewhere here but it is worth repeating because it is a particularly nice picture; with her brothers and sister, Prince Louis Ferdinand on the right has his arm round her shoulder.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: eejm on October 22, 2007, 05:00:06 PM
Are there any surviving letters or anything else written from her family mentioning what they knew and understood about Alexandrine's condition?  How soon was she identified as having Down's Syndrome upon her birth?  How was her education handled, and by whom?  Per the information on Down's Syndrome that Cambria_Coheed posted, I wonder how soon her family knew that Alexandrine would likely have mental and physical challenges.  I was surprised to learn that so much was known about Down's Syndrome so long ago.

Although not royal, Charles de Gaulle also had a daughter with Down's Syndrome, Anne.  As was Alexandrine, she was kept with her family, and her father held a lot of affection for her. There's a nice story in her Wikipedia entry about a photograph of Anne stopping a bullet that could have killed Gen. de Gaulle.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_de_gaulle
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on October 22, 2007, 05:08:16 PM
yes, i was surprised as well to find out that too.

did Alexandrine marry? i mean i know she could probably have married but would be unable to have children because of the extra 21st chromosome.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 22, 2007, 05:44:00 PM
Alexandrine never married. She was brought up with the other children at the family homes, the Cecilienhof in Potsdam and Schloss Oels in Silesia, and then spent a couple of years at Trüpersche Sonderschule, a special school which had been founded in Jena in 1890 for the education of children with learning difficulties (and had thus been a pioneering institution). After spending two further years at home in Potsdam, she lived in Bavaria for the rest of her life, at Niederpöcking from 1936-45, and then in a house on the Starnberger See (Lake Starnberg, not far from Munich).

There is a German Wikipedia article on Johannes Trüper, the founder of the above-mentioned special school:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Tr%C3%BCper
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 22, 2007, 05:48:29 PM
thanks adagietto, all that is interesting and true. Cecilie was hero-worhipped by VL. in fact, when Cecilie arrived as the bethrothed to the crown prince for the first time at the neues palais in Potsdam, the occasion was a very big event. Viktoria was a child and witnessed the pomp and revelry from a window in the palace and was awestruck by her first sight of Cecilie. Viktoria wrote that Cecilie looked like a true fairytale princess arriving in all her beauty and grace to meet her prince charming. On that occasion, Cecilie was wearing a gorgeous all-pink outfit including a pink fur hat and muff. it must have been delightful.

I had written this earlier in the thread:

"Princess Victoria Louise (her sister-in-law) records in her autobiography:

"...I was overwhelmed with curiousity as to how a proper bride should look....I went through to have a look. Cecile's beauty, grace and charm filled me with astonishment....I went through..several times more in order to have a good look at her...Cecile's bewitching appearance at least conformed to the picture conjured up by my girlish fantasy..." "

Isn't it delightfully interesting how a true princess herself would have a girlish fantasy about a fairytale princess? it speaks significantly to how people have simillar human traits/dreams in spite of their status in life.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 22, 2007, 10:37:36 PM
A true princess yes...but isolated in a school room with her governess and dreams.  :)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 23, 2007, 08:53:07 AM
thanks adagietto, all that is interesting and true. Cecilie was hero-worhipped by VL. in fact, when Cecilie arrived as the bethrothed to the crown prince for the first time at the neues palais in Potsdam, the occasion was a very big event. Viktoria was a child and witnessed the pomp and revelry from a window in the palace and was awestruck by her first sight of Cecilie. Viktoria wrote that Cecilie looked like a true fairytale princess arriving in all her beauty and grace to meet her prince charming. On that occasion, Cecilie was wearing a gorgeous all-pink outfit including a pink fur hat and muff. it must have been delightful.

I had written this earlier in the thread:

"Princess Victoria Louise (her sister-in-law) records in her autobiography:

"...I was overwhelmed with curiousity as to how a proper bride should look....I went through to have a look. Cecile's beauty, grace and charm filled me with astonishment....I went through..several times more in order to have a good look at her...Cecile's bewitching appearance at least conformed to the picture conjured up by my girlish fantasy..." "




Isn't it delightfully interesting how a true princess herself would have a girlish fantasy about a fairytale princess? it speaks significantly to how people have simillar human traits/dreams in spite of their status in life.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 23, 2007, 09:41:31 PM
The life of a Prussian princess is quite limited to dresses & marriages as Vikotia Luise's grandmother Vicky found out when she arrive from England.  :(
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 24, 2007, 09:13:25 AM
Eric Lowe I cannot understand your last two replies as they do not seem to track on point however much it seems to be your intent. Can you please explain and clarify?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: dmitri on October 24, 2007, 10:44:15 AM
The life of a Prussian Princess was highly dictated by stifling protocol. In fact one was placed under house arrest if misbehaviour took place no matter how trivial.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 24, 2007, 09:13:46 PM
Indeed ! No wonder VL made dreams of marriage and liberation from that ragid social structure. In fact one of the reasons that Prince Arthur married princess Louise of Prussia was that she felt sorry for her and wanted to give her a better life in England.  :(
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 25, 2007, 01:40:40 PM
Cecilie did not swap Cannes for Berlin. Her ducal family vacationed on the French and Italian rivieras but she preferred the northern German topgraphy and environment to that of the mediterranean and she always relished the "going home" after time spend on the riviera.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 25, 2007, 09:23:04 PM
True...although she had much freedom in the Riveria and got used to some of the liberities that were allowed there. Berlin must have been a shock to her... :(
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 26, 2007, 06:44:40 AM
It is often said that Cecilie aged quite early; well, she couldn't maintain her youthful radiance indefinitely, but it seems to me that she changed remarkably little between, say, 1914 and 1950. As evidence, I offer this photo of her from 1950 when she was almost sixty-five. How little mark all the vents of the preceding decades have left on her!

(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/linschoten/Royal/cec50-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 26, 2007, 10:21:47 AM
wow! I would never have guessed this photo was circa 1950. I would have put it about 1920.

Once again, it is rare to see a royal with a smile on his/her face. Cecilie and VL were few who did so in many photos.

This is a great photo. Cecilie looks pleased, calm, at peace, lovely.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Yseult on October 26, 2007, 02:20:06 PM
Anyone has pictures of Cecilie with her sister Alexandrine? I just have seen a few shots...and the images were so small...so I can´t apreciate if the two sisters shared a "family look".
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 29, 2007, 06:38:39 AM
This is just a magnified vesrion of the same image:

(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/linschoten/Royal/krp.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 29, 2007, 10:07:54 AM
I think this portrait is one of the three best of the great beauty I've seen. Simply stunning. I guess the vintage is about 1910.

Kaiser Wilhelm should have used Cecilie as a PR campaign more than he did! In addition to her fabulous appearance, she was a wonderfully interesting person as well. An excellent combination for building relationships on the political playing field.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 29, 2007, 01:00:51 PM
Unfortunately it doesn't seem that the Kaiser appreciated where the best interests of his dynasty lay in this regard; after all, he was jealous of the Crown Prince's popularity and to keep him on the sidelines in Danzig.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 29, 2007, 04:27:56 PM
I didn't realize WII was THAT jealous of his oldest son. Unfortunatly, had the crown prince and princess been visible on a global scale and made good will tours (similar to WII himself), the public opinion, especially in England and Russia could have been such that the people would have demanded that the war not commence. maybe.

Where in Danzig did Cecilie and William live? Danzig wa such a beautiful city prior to its destruction in WWII.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 29, 2007, 08:23:20 PM
I heard Kaiser Bill was fond of his daughter-in-law.  :)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 29, 2007, 10:49:08 PM
For anyone in Amarillo, Texas:

The four homes on the St. Andrew's Episcopal School Spring Tour of Homes couldn't be more diverse, but all intrigue in their own way.
One - featured in both Life and Look magazines - was designed for a Germann princess bride....

2410 Van Buren St.'Built for a princess'

Clyde Harris designed this home for himself and his wife. The couple and their home have been featured in both Life and Look magazines. Harris served in World War II, after which he was assigned to recover European art pilfered by the Nazis. During his post-war military service, he met his wife-to-be, who was a cousin of Queen Elizabeth II. He married Princess Cecelia Victoria Anastasia Zita Thyra Adelheid of Prussia in her family's castle. The Amarillo home includes an oval entry and paintings by Harris. Current homeowners commissioned the late Dick Reynolds to create hand-painted frames around works by Harris and to adorn the oval ceiling. It's currently owned by Mr. and Mrs. Gary Pfeffer.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 30, 2007, 10:14:49 AM
Thanks Grandduchess! Almost makes one want to get on a plane and head for Amarillo.

Cecilie's life and story is perhaps more of a drama and filled with more of the Hollywood "stuff" that would make for a wonderful bio drama. Did she retain any large amounts of keepsakes from her mother or had all those items been essentially willed to her oldest brothers?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on October 30, 2007, 01:08:25 PM
Cecilie and Kira lived in Amarillo, as Cecile was dependent on financial support from her brother.  Cecilie sought medical treatment in Germany.  She became an American citizen several years after her marriage.    Kira is a private individual, who lives quietly (we chat at least month a month) in Texas, and keeps in contact with some of her German cousins.  Cecilie had no real contact with Victoria Marina and her family.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 30, 2007, 01:28:25 PM
thanks Marlene, appreciate your personal information.

I know your friendship with Cecilie and Kira is something you protect and understandably so, but are you able to provide some insights to the sense of loss or pain of the devastation experienced by Germany and her family? Americans who fall from the highest levels of influence and power seem to have a lifelong embitterment and sense they can still regain their once held position. Did you find this true with Cecilie? thank you in advance for any thoughts you are able to share.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on November 01, 2007, 04:10:50 PM
Cecilie was raised to marry well ... but she fell in love with an American soldier

wonderful picture, Danjel! This looks like a mid-1930s vintage, yes? Did she and her siblings get a more solid education in order to survive in the post-monarchy world?

This photo would be nice if taken a bit more wide so we could see her Mercedes (I assume it was such!).  ;)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on November 01, 2007, 04:13:58 PM
I never knew Cecilie ... I am friends with Kira - we are the same age.  However, I would not agree with your statement about Americans.

thanks Marlene, appreciate your personal information.

I know your friendship with Cecilie and Kira is something you protect and understandably so, but are you able to provide some insights to the sense of loss or pain of the devastation experienced by Germany and her family? Americans who fall from the highest levels of influence and power seem to have a lifelong embitterment and sense they can still regain their once held position. Did you find this true with Cecilie? thank you in advance for any thoughts you are able to share.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on November 03, 2007, 03:08:13 PM
Very nice too, especially the last.

Have we had any pictures of her in uniform? Here she is on horseback in the uniform of her dragoon regiment:
(http://inlinethumb22.webshots.com/28245/2046135870100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

With Viktoria Luise:
(http://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/22756/2735311950100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 05, 2007, 10:11:30 AM
Cecilie is one of the few, if not the only, top level royal to be photographed in artful "posed" positions that are more exemplary of latter 20th century portrait work than the early part of the century. She is seen kneeling on a chair, leaning on the arm rests, lying on the floor, etc. Quite wonderful and unique.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 05, 2007, 07:41:14 PM
Yes...But she was critized by the conservation Prussian junkers for being "too progessive".... :(
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on November 07, 2007, 12:06:43 AM
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Kaiser%20Wilhelms%20family/880b_1_sbl.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Prince_Christopher on November 20, 2007, 09:35:18 PM
Some links to photos from the Amarillo Public Library:

Cecilie with a baby Kira (notice the Kaiser in the background):
http://images.amarillolibrary.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/PhotoArchiv&CISOPTR=863&REC=9


Baby Kira with her German nanny
http://images.amarillolibrary.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/PhotoArchiv&CISOPTR=880&REC=18

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: José on November 23, 2007, 04:48:01 PM
Are there any photos of her husband ?

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on November 28, 2007, 11:25:55 AM
Rather sweet ...  on Monday, I bought a pc that shows  Cecilie and Alexandrine and three brothers (taken in the late 1930s) --perfect timing to get the card because I had lunch with Kira on Monday ....
Some links to photos from the Amarillo Public Library:

Cecilie with a baby Kira (notice the Kaiser in the background):
http://images.amarillolibrary.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/PhotoArchiv&CISOPTR=863&REC=9


Baby Kira with her German nanny
http://images.amarillolibrary.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/PhotoArchiv&CISOPTR=880&REC=18


Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 10, 2007, 02:15:18 PM
What I have read about Cecilie is that she was held in high esteem by nearly everyone and I have not read anything that criticized her in any way. She enjoyed a very excellent realtionship with the press, the court, and the general population. Within the familly, she was admired to say the least.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 11, 2007, 04:45:48 AM
She suffered like Vicky for her forward ideas and fashionable clothes... :(
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 11, 2007, 09:30:52 AM
Please show us where the suffering of Cecilie is documented. There is nothing in her memoirs to suggest this, and nothing in the public record that would indicate she was under valued.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 12, 2007, 05:24:58 AM
Did you read Princess Catherine Radziwill book on the crown princess ? It might be gossip but it was widely believed as she did have good contacts in Berlin.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 14, 2007, 11:06:49 AM
I think Cecilie's own memoirs are a better source for reality in terms of how much she "suffered" or not in ways similar to Vicky. Cecilie herself did not complain of such and also unlike Vicky, Cecilie was in constant, adoring public eye. If Catherine Radziwill suggests that Cecilie was beleaguered by the same pressures and types of people that burdened Vicky, Radziwill is a voice in the wilderness.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on December 14, 2007, 02:20:33 PM
here are some pics i found

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Kaiser%20Wilhelms%20family/b907_1_sbl.jpg)

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Kaiser%20Wilhelms%20family/817f_1.jpg)

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e386/mashka1899/Kaiser%20Wilhelms%20family/4b06_1_sbl.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 15, 2007, 01:04:20 AM
I do believe in Catherine in her critque of Berlin high society, even the Kaiserin ( Dona) was not above being critized by these conservative junkers.  >:(
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 15, 2007, 12:56:11 PM
Everyone gets criticized. There is no way Dona or Cecilie suffered from bein ostracized the way Vicky (and Fritz) were.

I also do not know who you are meaning when you refer to "conservative junkers" as some sort of defined group. the junkers were collectively  the prussian nobility. who are you talking about?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 17, 2007, 08:03:01 PM
The conservative factors at court, who made up of the "Helleluyah Aunts". Moretta and Dona's sister also mention them as they stifful any fun or changes at court. You think someone like Cecilie would have got out scot free without being critized for her modern ideas is really unrealistic ::).
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 18, 2007, 09:53:58 AM
Eric, I think you are too victimized by television and Hollywood!  :)

Cecilie enjoyed a very positive and rewarding life as Kronprincessin in spite of some marital strife. People will be people, and low levels of gossip are going to happen. surely QEII has been gossiped about, too, but to claim she "suffers" would be silly, just as it is to suggest that of Cecilie.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 18, 2007, 08:26:53 PM
Not really...It was common knowlege that her marriage was not a happy one...no Hollywood drama is needed.  :(
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on December 18, 2007, 09:55:48 PM
Cecile did have some criticism levelled at her for being a bit frivolous but no one is ever universally popular and it certainly wasn't on the scope of the abuse heaped on the Empress Frederick (who was criticized for being the very opposite of frivolous, too intellectual and politically involved). Her marriage also disintegrated somewhat early and the Crown Prince was a less than ideal husband. Nonetheless, the 2 remained amicable up until the end, appearing together for many family functions with apparently little strife. The separate lives they led seemed to actual preserve good will between them. Also, much like Rose Kennedy, Cecile devoted herself to a disabled child and this gave her some real purpose, I think. Thankfully for both Cecile and Alexandrine, Crown Prince Wilhelm wasn't the type to swoop in and attempt to have the 'problem' 'fixed' while his wife was away on a needed vacation.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on December 18, 2007, 10:41:37 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/willycecilecostumeballw.jpg)

Wilhlem & Cecile in dress for a costume ball. Wilhelm wears the Death's Head Hussars uniform while Cecile wears Russian dress.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 19, 2007, 10:26:25 PM
Indeed ! I often wonder with such a Russian mother, how Russian was Cecilie in her attitude ?  ???
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on December 20, 2007, 12:39:45 AM
Indeed ! I often wonder with such a Russian mother, how Russian was Cecilie in her attitude ?  ???

I wonder what's in your opinion a Russian attitide is?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 20, 2007, 04:20:18 AM
Being a daughter of a Russian Grand Duchess. Like her cousins Missy & Ducky (who could be very imperial if they chose to be).  :)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 20, 2007, 08:27:48 AM
Indeed ! I often wonder with such a Russian mother, how Russian was Cecilie in her attitude ?  ???

I wonder what's in your opinion a Russian attitide is?

 ;) I agree? what would that be?

Nonetheless, everything I've read about Cecilie is that she was very much in love with her childhood home and environs and activiities centered around Schwerin. She loved that area and her German roots. Even on vacations the family took to the Italian Riviera, she longed to get back home to the more familiar and beloved terrain of northern Germany. there is nothing in particular I have discovered that showed any special yearnings to visit Russia or create aspects to her family's life that were based on Russian traditions.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 20, 2007, 08:36:14 AM
Also, much like Rose Kennedy, Cecile devoted herself to a disabled child and this gave her some real purpose, I think. Thankfully for both Cecile and Alexandrine, Crown Prince Wilhelm wasn't the type to swoop in and attempt to have the 'problem' 'fixed' while his wife was away on a needed vacation.


Thanks for the comparative, Grandduchessella. It was dreadful what pappa Kennedy did to his daughter on the sly. Afterward, they "dumped" her in an institution in Wisconsin.

conversely, Cecilie and Wilhelm openly showcased little Alexandrine and maintained that display of compassion and acceptance for her entire life. This is a noteworthy event in the history of how disabilities are handled publicly and privately. The Kronprinz and Cecilie were shining examples of how to accept and care for a child with a disability or disease, and very much in the forefront of such a cause. It tood decades for the rest of the world to get to the place they were in the early 20th century.

It should be sadly noted that while Cecilie and Wilhelme were displaying this type of compassion, Queen Mary in England was rejecting her epileptic son and generally sequestering him out of sight...and sadly out of mind. Too bad Cecilie and Mary did not have a heart to heart during which Cecilie could have taught Mary a few things about mothering.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on December 20, 2007, 10:54:13 AM
I have to disagree here, HerrKaiser. I think Queen Mary has been grossly misjudged in her treatment of Prince John. It's not a topic for here but it's been discussed a good deal on the Windsor threads. Charlotte Zeepvatt has done a lot of good work in looking past the myths surrounding the 'Lost Prince'. He wasn't just 'dumped off' and certainly not in an institution but surrounded by those who could care for him and provide him with a very comfortable life. He also wasn't hidden away from the public--he was well known and commonly photographed as well as appearing a good deal in public. It was only as his epilepsy became worse (coinciding with WW1) that he went to live in a house on the Sandringham estate near his grandmother.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on December 21, 2007, 12:39:17 AM
Being a daughter of a Russian Grand Duchess. Like her cousins Missy & Ducky (who could be very imperial if they chose to be).  :)

I don't think that Cecilie was brought up in such an Imperial manner as Maria and Victoria Melita. GDss Anastasia Mikhailovna was not like her cousin GDss Maria Alexandrovna --- absolutely different personalities and lives.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 22, 2007, 12:20:24 AM
Nonetheless Grand Duchess Anastasia was a quite determined lady herself, although she did not taught her children to be like that though.

I agree with you on that. Ceciie really could teach a few things about human compassion to Queen Mary. Empress Friedrich also noted May (future Queen Mary) 's lack of intimacy with her childen. However the QM approach was fully accepted at that time, while people like Ceicile was deemed modern and ahead of her time.  :)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric VdV on January 02, 2008, 03:08:22 PM
I remember Kira Harris had the christening of her son at Burg Hohenzollern in a joint christening ceremony with Prince Christian of Prussia, son of Prince Christian Sigismund. It was covered in the media.

Eric VdV
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Norbert on January 11, 2008, 04:51:23 PM
 I can help on a few points raised.
 Yes Charlotte Zeepvatt has exposed the cruel myth about Queen Mary and her son. Pss Alexandrine had her own little home on Lake Starnberg near Munich. Cr Pr Wilhelm had a house built for Cecile on the Frauenkopt in Stuttgart. Cecile's last companion was her "secretary" Otto Groha. Her legacy to him was challenged in court in 1954 and he was forced to return jewelry
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on January 12, 2008, 03:05:58 PM
Cecilie with Alexandrine:
(http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/39141/2405157970100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

Father and daughter:
(http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/41558/2248097750100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

Alexandrine when older with her brothers and sister:
(http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/40243/2194292690100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: eejm on January 12, 2008, 08:17:23 PM
I love the above picture of Wilhelm holding baby Alexandrine.  Pictures of fathers from that time period alone with their babies seem to be quite rare.  Wilhelm looks very relaxed and natural in this picture, and quite content to be holding his little one.  :)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on March 09, 2008, 11:55:17 PM
.

click on image for larger version

the emperor with his first grandson, prince Wilhelm
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/My%20Photos/100.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/My%20Photos/100.jpg)

according to A Distant Thunder by Anne Topham:
"the prince was a withdrawn, sullen child until it was discovered that he was being mistreated at the hands of his nurse.  her immediate dismissal was one of the few times His Majesty interfered in the lives of his married children."
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on March 13, 2008, 05:47:48 AM
The Kaiser had an awkward and unstable character, and his deformed arm certainly didn't help in that regard. After his fall from power, he mellowed considerably and became a more appealing person, even if he remained quite as blinkered in many of his views.  There is any amount of good literature on him, and it is unfair to suggest that all his bographers have been prejudiced in their view of him. Lamar Cecil's biography, for instance, may be critical but it is critical on perfectly reasonable grounds. He was ill-suited for his role and it is hard not to think that Germany's (and Europe's) history might have followed a far more fortunate course if his father or indeed his brother Heinrich had ruled instead. At a personal level he is a fascinating character though. There will be much to learn from the multi-volume study by John C. G. Röhl  that is now underway.  With his eldest son and eldest grandson:

(http://inlinethumb40.webshots.com/42023/2264687240100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 13, 2008, 10:31:01 AM
What a wondeful photo Adagietto! Young Prinz Wilhelm looks very much like his mother, yes? Very good looking man.

I do not agree, however, that it is unfair to suggest that WII's biographers hold a certain prejudice in their view of him. Even those who strive to be unbiased are victims of what they know, what they don't know, and the effect of years of ingrained knowledge in one direction. An extreme example, but it makes the point, is that it would be quite difficult to find a biographer to write about Hitler or Stalin without a starting point of the conventional view.

Many people theorize that had WII not been Kaiser, Germany and the world would be ever so different. Many others believe the powers well beyond the reach of WII guided the national and global direction regardless who was on the throne. I am more in the latter's camp. Fact is also that from 1888 to 1914--26 years--Germany enjoyed the greatest period of peace, prosperity, social enhancement, culturual growth, etc, than ever before or since. What period of 26 years has the rest of the world been at peace?

Princess Jil....Wilhelm II did have a deformed left arm due to complications during birth. He never has use of the arm and it never grew normally. As a result, he did try to hide it and was always photographed in ways to shield the deformity. It appears he was extremely self conscious about the disability and was teased about it, even by family members. Such abuse does lead to personality quirks that are not so attractive.

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on April 01, 2008, 02:46:55 PM
This thread is worth continuing, so here are some pictures to start it off again. They show Prince Friedrich (1911-66), the fourth and youngest son of Crown Prince Wilhelm; he was in England during the war, presumably as a prisoner of war, and married an Englishwoman in 1945, a daughter of the Earl of Iveagh. Does anyone know anything more about him, or have any later pictures? A very handsome child; in the first photo he looks like Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau.

(http://inlinethumb56.webshots.com/16759/2197533560100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

(http://inlinethumb55.webshots.com/11638/2469719240100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
I'm not overfond of pictures of children in uniform, but this has a touchingly sad air.

(http://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/1796/2818551610100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

(http://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/40900/2783443060100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on April 01, 2008, 07:37:22 PM
Here is what Time had to say about Prince Frederick:

"One of doddering old Kaiser Wilhelm's spruce young grandsons, Prince Friedrich of Prussia, finding himself in England at outbreak of war, streaked for the Scottish Highlands to stay with his friends, the scrawny Duke and beauteous Duchess of Buccleuch & Queensbury. At the Coronation in 1937 the Duchess helped to hold the canopy over the Queen. As Governor of the Royal Bank of Scotland the Duke has as his subordinate (Deputy Governor) the Queen's father, the Earl of Strathmore. The Duke's sister is the Duchess of Gloucester, sister-in-law of King George. On top of everything the Duke of Buccleuch & Queensbury held the honorary job of Lord Steward of the Royal Household.

That Prince Friedrich of Prussia should lie snug in a household so close to the British Royal Family was not to be endured in wartime, more especially since the Duke had for years spoken highly in Mayfair drawing rooms of what a good job Hitler was doing in Germany. So three weeks ago Prince Friedrich was moved to an ordinary internment camp. Last week London learned that the King had been graciously pleased to discharge the Duke of Buccleuch & Queensbury from his sinecure on May 10 last and appoint the Duke of Hamilton & Brandon to be Lord Steward."

Frederick had worked for 6 months at Schroeder's Bank in London and was a favorite in London. In 1937 he had attended the coronation of George VI. He was described as one of the 'best-dressed' of young men. He was also an aviation enthusiast.

It was rumored that his death was a suicide. His body was pulled from the Rhine River near Bingen amid stories of divorce--his wife had apparently filed for divorce the day he disappeared. I guess the Prince had been in Germany for the wedding of Duke Carl Gregor of Mecklenburg married Princess Maria Margareta of Hohenzollern. He had married Lady Brigid Guiness (related to the Irish brewing family) in 1945. (She remarried) They had 5 children--the youngest, Antonia, is married to Charles Wellesley, Marquess of Douro, heir to the Duke of Wellington. Their son and heir is married to Jemma Kidd. A Guinness cousin, Lucy, married the artist Philip de Laszlo (who painted a lovely portrait of Antonia's grandmother Cecile). Prince Friedrich had become a naturalized British citizen and had once taken the Anglicized name of Mansfield but later resumed his royal titles.

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on April 01, 2008, 07:46:34 PM
he became a POW as an ordinary citizen?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on April 02, 2008, 04:16:30 AM
Thanks for all the info and the later photos of him. What a strange course his life took; a shame that it should have ended so sadly.

In answer to HerrKaiser's query, most Germans who found themselves in Britain at the outbreak of the war were interned for security reasons, mostly in hotels and boarding-houses on the Isle of Man I believe. Since the Prince married in July 1945, it doesn't look as if he was kept interned throughout the war (as would certainly have been the case if he had been a POW).
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on April 04, 2008, 03:21:47 AM
That's an interesting point!

The picture of Kira with Kaiserin Hermine didn't come out above; here it is. She looks so radiant in this, quite the nicest photo I have seen of her.
(http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/41352/2499746660100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)


Since that's not strictly relevant to the thread, one or two that are. First Louis Ferdinand as a baby:
(http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/36669/2313758240100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

Elder brother Wilhelm:
(http://inlinethumb59.webshots.com/13050/2389561410100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

Little Prince Wilhelm's morning walk:
(http://inlinethumb31.webshots.com/35294/2927760210100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on April 04, 2008, 09:13:34 AM
Little Louis Ferdinand's hair style looks like it was the prototype for colin Farrell's look!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on April 22, 2008, 11:10:31 AM
Prinz Wilhelm & Prinz Louis Ferdinand
(http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/5116/prinzwilhelmprinzlouisfzd4.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on April 22, 2008, 06:37:32 PM
very nice photo of the brothers. Is it possible that they had some sort of an armband on their upper arms? it appears something has been retouched out of the photo.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 09, 2008, 01:45:17 PM
Prinz Wilhelm von Preussen
(http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/7440/wpag2.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 09, 2008, 01:50:49 PM
Princess Cecilie's husband, Crown Prince Wilhelm
(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1947/005rt0.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 09, 2008, 01:52:52 PM
Crown Princess Cecilie & children
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/455/046wh0.jpg
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 09, 2008, 01:56:15 PM
Austrian Ties ...  :)
(http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2499/158hg4.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on May 09, 2008, 04:25:28 PM
His memoirs (English translation):
http://www.archive.org/details/memoirsofcrownpr00wilhuoft

An English wartime book, but much of it is fairer and more informative than one might expect:
http://www.archive.org/details/realcrownprincer00kingrich

He was an interesting character, self-indulgent and militaristic in outlook, but possessing a good deal of charm and more common sense than his father; he might have made quite a good monarch in happier times.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 09, 2008, 05:18:51 PM
Princess Cecilie's husband, Crown Prince Wilhelm
(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1947/005rt0.jpg)



thanks for the picture. this is one of the more interesting photos I've seen of the crown prince. His intense glare is typical of his standard gaze but the close up provides a softer, more pleasing demeanor to his persona. He looks more like his father here.

that is quite a collar!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 10, 2008, 03:42:08 PM
You're Welcome  :) ...  I think he was a mixture of both his parents  ;)   * great observation about his collar *  8)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 10, 2008, 07:54:31 PM
Die Kronprinzen Paar
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6392/kronprinzenpaariz0.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on May 11, 2008, 12:43:04 PM
That's a nice picture; sometimes he looks quite sensitive, sometimes rather rakish and unappealing; but his wife always outshines him! Here's a post-war picture of them together in Silesia:
(http://inlinethumb36.webshots.com/41699/2120331220100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

I enjoyed looking through your albums by the way.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 11, 2008, 02:08:42 PM
That's a nice picture; sometimes he looks quite sensitive, sometimes rather rakish and unappealing; but his wife always outshines him! Here's a post-war picture of them together in Silesia:
(http://inlinethumb36.webshots.com/41699/2120331220100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

I enjoyed looking through your albums by the way.

You Did? :)  .. that's great !!!  Thank You  :D      * I agree, she did outshine him but they were such a cute couple *
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 11, 2008, 11:24:28 PM
Cecilie was truly a trophy for the Crown Prince. Very similar situation to that of Charles and Diana, imo. Cecilie was beautiful, charming, well educated, compassionate, culturally astute, and loved by the people. Wilhelm was less on nearly every measurement, but contrary to conventional wisdom, both he and his father had a wonderful sense of humor and we quite engaging in private situations.

Poor Cecilie, however, seemed to lose her looks earlier in life than one would expect. She became heavy and frumpy by the end of the war, and by the mid 1920s had lost, imo, much of her statuesque loveliness of 20 years earlier.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 12, 2008, 09:00:38 AM
Not surprising afer having all those children in pretty quick succession. I think she resembles Willy's grandmother Vicky in this. Next to Louise, I consider Vicky QV's most attractive daughter but she did get frumpy early on before having a late-in-life renaissance.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 12, 2008, 09:48:20 AM
Not surprising afer having all those children in pretty quick succession.

...and the horrible effects and stress of losing nearly everything that defined her life in terms of personal possessions and status.  :(
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 12, 2008, 10:40:00 AM
Not surprising afer having all those children in pretty quick succession. I think she resembles Willy's grandmother Vicky in this. Next to Louise, I consider Vicky QV's most attractive daughter but she did get frumpy early on before having a late-in-life renaissance.

I'm in total agreement with you on the last sentence  ;)  * Louischen was the 'family beauty' *  ... I also believe that CP Wilhelm had a very gentle and ' likeable ' side to his character/demeanor which helped to counterbalance Cecilie's magnetic personality  ;D
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 14, 2008, 05:08:53 PM
Kronprinzessin & Sons
(http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/1702/sr4126jc9.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 14, 2008, 08:55:45 PM
Richard Speight (sp) was the photographer for that sitting. He was fond of the Crown Princess and took some lovely shots of her and her family. He took more natural photos than many earlier photographers.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 14, 2008, 09:48:49 PM
Richard Speight (sp) was the photographer for that sitting. He was fond of the Crown Princess and took some lovely shots of her and her family. He took more natural photos than many earlier photographers.

Your knowledge continues to amaze me !  :D
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 15, 2008, 03:06:10 PM
...and the natural poses and more artful images he created for Cecilie were somewhat unique among all royal photos of the time period. Cecilie casts a much more human, loving, and lovely image than her peers, imo.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 15, 2008, 03:15:19 PM
Ah! My own special photo! thank you so much ArchDss! Very thoughtful and kind.

I have not seen this photo before. Wilhelm does indeed look as good as he every has. Cecilie maintains that pearcing stare that expresses such interest and depth to her persona.

Actually, I think this photo is ever so exemplory of the kind of image/feel we might see of David and Wallis, yes? He looking dreaming and gazing adoringly at 'the woman he loves' while she sits confident, regal, and composed.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 15, 2008, 05:05:51 PM
Ah! My own special photo! thank you so much ArchDss! Very thoughtful and kind.

I have not seen this photo before. Wilhelm does indeed look as good as he every has. Cecilie maintains that pearcing stare that expresses such interest and depth to her persona.

Actually, I think this photo is ever so exemplory of the kind of image/feel we might see of David and Wallis, yes? He looking dreaming and gazing adoringly at 'the woman he loves' while she sits confident, regal, and composed.

You're Welcome :) ... I know what a big fan of Crown Princess Cecilie you are !  ;)     * RE: Wallis & the Duke of Windsor, in example maybe - but that's as far as it goes *  :P
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on May 16, 2008, 04:30:42 PM
That's particularly nice of both of them, taken just before their marriage I think; this is another picture taken at the same session:
(http://inlinethumb48.webshots.com/41967/2746037910100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

The Crown Prince, wearing a hat with the brim extravagantly curled, and his bride:
(http://inlinethumb57.webshots.com/40888/2028112920100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

Receiving congraulary flowers from schoolgirls:
(http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/19393/2532593770100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

First public carriage-ride together:
(http://inlinethumb16.webshots.com/31311/2323466050100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 16, 2008, 05:03:22 PM
Interesting how Willhem is holding onto HER arm while Cecilie stands with arms at her side. This is a total reversal of usual the gender mannerism. With the hat, the collar, and his arm in hers...Wilhelm is looking somewhat effeminate, imo. Sorry for the stereotyping, but the pose/appearance is quite unusual from what I have seen among royal couple photos.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on May 16, 2008, 05:46:10 PM
Yes, it is odd. He looks quite immature, not helped by the not altogether fortunate clothing.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: StevenL on May 16, 2008, 06:07:33 PM
Interesting how Willhem is holding onto HER arm while Cecilie stands with arms at her side. This is a total reversal of usual the gender mannerism. With the hat, the collar, and his arm in hers...Wilhelm is looking somewhat effeminate, imo. Sorry for the stereotyping, but the pose/appearance is quite unusual from what I have seen among royal couple photos.

William isn't looking 'somewhat effeminate" -- he looks outrageously effeminate!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: lilavanderhorn on May 16, 2008, 06:17:37 PM
Does anyone else see a slight resemblence with Cecilie and Empress Marie(Dagmar) in her young days?  Not saying they look alike, but just so in the pictures.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 17, 2008, 11:52:16 AM
Interesting how Willhem is holding onto HER arm while Cecilie stands with arms at her side. This is a total reversal of usual the gender mannerism. With the hat, the collar, and his arm in hers...Wilhelm is looking somewhat effeminate, imo. Sorry for the stereotyping, but the pose/appearance is quite unusual from what I have seen among royal couple photos.

William isn't looking 'somewhat effeminate" -- he looks outrageously effeminate!


 ;) I was just trying to be as PC as possible.  :-X  ;D
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on May 17, 2008, 12:11:03 PM
Such tact is just what we expect of you! More Crown Princely fashions:

(http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/42827/2401404470100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

(http://inlinethumb14.webshots.com/34317/2176263980100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 17, 2008, 02:15:01 PM
Very nice photos and truly "fashion" pics that it seems the German royals tended towards during the early 20th century. I am not sure of the byline, but it looks like "Heilegedamm" which would make sense since the chair Cecilie is sitting on is beach chair and Heilegedamm was an absolutely stunningly wonderful royal resort on the Baltic Sea.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 19, 2008, 12:33:49 PM
Kronprinzessin Cecilie holding Prinz Friedrich - she appears very homely/motherly
(http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/4195/sr4257vk3.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on May 19, 2008, 01:20:54 PM
He has nice open features, gives the impression of being an attractive personality. This looks as if it is from much the same period:
(http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/40513/2145652310100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 19, 2008, 06:27:24 PM
I believe you are correct,  ;)  .. he seems to have taken after his mother - CPrss Cecilie  * don't you think ? *  :)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: tecklenburg on May 20, 2008, 03:53:36 AM
yes HRH Prince Friedrich looks sad in his uniform in page 2 :( even if he wears it very well !
Which regiment was this uniform for?
I know that every Prince of Prussia begins his military career in 1st Foot Guard Regiment like his elder brother in another picture.
Did some Kaiser's grandsons or great-grandsons serve in the german navy?
I know that HRH Prince Louis-Ferdinand was a pilot in die Luftwaffe. what about his brother's, cousins & sons?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 20, 2008, 02:18:20 PM
...and the natural poses and more artful images he created for Cecilie were somewhat unique among all royal photos of the time period. Cecilie casts a much more human, loving, and lovely image than her peers, imo.

A few more images of the Crown Princess :)

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/953/copyofceciliezl8.jpg

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/9480/copyof38807cni0.jpg

* I apologize for the quality of the last image *  :(
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 20, 2008, 02:23:35 PM
...and the natural poses and more artful images he created for Cecilie were somewhat unique among all royal photos of the time period. Cecilie casts a much more human, loving, and lovely image than her peers, imo.

A few more images of the Crown Princess :)

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/953/copyofceciliezl8.jpg

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/9480/copyof38807cni0.jpg

* I apologize for the quality of the last image *  :(

thanks ArchDss! Appreciated it. I love the spiked hair on young Wilhelm; we had another photo of him with that 21st century look.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 20, 2008, 03:26:50 PM
...and the natural poses and more artful images he created for Cecilie were somewhat unique among all royal photos of the time period. Cecilie casts a much more human, loving, and lovely image than her peers, imo.


He also achieved it with a similar young mother, Crown Princess Margaret of Connaught.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 20, 2008, 06:30:22 PM
...and the natural poses and more artful images he created for Cecilie were somewhat unique among all royal photos of the time period. Cecilie casts a much more human, loving, and lovely image than her peers, imo.

A few more images of the Crown Princess :)

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/953/copyofceciliezl8.jpg

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/9480/copyof38807cni0.jpg

* I apologize for the quality of the last image *  :(

thanks ArchDss! Appreciated it. I love the spiked hair on young Wilhelm; we had another photo of him with that 21st century look.

You're Welcome  :)  -  Louis-Ferdinand was too cute, I agree !!  :D        * Is that Prinz Friedrich in the royal cradle ? *  :-\
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on May 21, 2008, 05:57:53 AM
Richard Speaight wote some memoirs entitled 'Memoirs of a Court Photographer', but I've never come across a copy. I'd be very interested to see an example of of his photographs of Margaret of Connaught; her postcards tend to be of higher artistic quality than most, like those of Cecilie, but most that I have are from Swedish studios. I think the quality of such pictures was largely determined by how much interest the sitters took in them and the level of their taste, since they tended to use quite a range of photographers. Those of Marie Gabrielle of Bavria and her family are the most artistic of the German ones from the pre-WW1 era in my view. Those of the Crown Prince's family are more variable; I don't find many of the postcards of the children particularly attractive.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 21, 2008, 06:44:32 AM
If you look at 'Daisy's' thread, some of his work is there. I think his name is on the images, but if not, I'd be glad to identify the ones I can.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 28, 2008, 06:54:09 AM
Crown Princess Cecilie & family
http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/8499/copyofcoolkr9.jpg

Have you noticed that there something wrong with some of the men in this forum? H.K .. not you, of course or gogm  :)

* I can't help noticing some serious flaws *  :o
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on May 28, 2008, 06:58:04 AM
Die KronprinzenPaar
(http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9576/charmingax3.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on June 01, 2008, 09:57:34 PM
'Duchesses of Mecklenburg-Schwerin' - Berlin
http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/6412/mecklenburgpz8.jpg
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 01, 2008, 11:12:41 PM
this photo looks like it might be in front of the Berliner Dom (out of sight to the right) opposiite the Lustgarten. About the time Louis Ferdinand was baptised there. thanks ArchDss!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Luc on July 03, 2008, 10:05:42 AM
Does anyone know why princess Cecilie's mother wasn't invited at her marriage ? I'd like to know that...
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on July 03, 2008, 03:47:06 PM
She was a controversial figure and she intensely disliked Germany. However, she was, according to the newspaper reports, at the wedding. She had originally announced that she was staying in Cannes because of her health.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 04, 2008, 02:01:27 AM
Willy hated Anastasia's guts because she was umpopular and immoral... ;D
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on October 08, 2008, 09:55:23 AM
(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/ceciliemecklenburg1886AUSDERJUGENDZ.jpg)

Here you are! I hope it will come out good in this size and hope this especially for YOU, Katenka_Fyodorawa! :-))  Much fun with the pic!:-*
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on October 08, 2008, 10:24:56 AM
If you'd like it I'll try to make it bigger, it is still sharp as I see.
I've uploaded some mor pics of that family:


(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/adultchildrenandsomechildren-in-law.jpg)
The Kaiser's adult children and some children-in-law


(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/Ceciliewitheldestson.jpg)
Cecilie with eldest son Wilhelm

(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/ourcrownprincesswithherbothlittleso.jpg)
with her first two sons


(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/THEJOYOFBEINGMOTHERourcrownprincess.jpg)
it says: THE JOY OF BEING MOTHER


(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/CeciliewithlittleLouisFerdinand.jpg)
with young Louis

(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/CeciliemitltestenShnen.jpg)
with the first three boys

(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/thethreesonsofthecrwonprincecouple.jpg)
the three boys (I love this one, isn't it really true-to-live? :-)) )


(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/thecrownpricefamilybeschn.jpg)
the whole family with baby Alexandrine


(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/PrinzessinAlexandrineunbeschn.jpg)
Princess Alexandrine. Card was sold 'To the welfare of my 'Cecilyhelp', wich was an organisation wich helped poor children.

(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/PrincessAlexandrine.jpg)
same picture :-)

(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/cecilieandalexandrine.jpg)
with Alexandrine

(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/alexandrineplayinginthegarden.jpg)
Princess Alexandrine playing in the garden

(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/PrinzessinAlexandrine.jpg)
Alexandrine

(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/CeciliemitBabyCecilie.jpg)
with baby Cecilie

(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/crownprincessceciliewithhersixchild.jpg)
the complete family

(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/Ceciliewithdaughters.jpg)
Cecilie with both daughters
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on October 08, 2008, 02:59:45 PM
To Ketanka: It was a great pleasure to me to do this for you ;-))!

To Eric: I don't know her family, I am really ashamed, I've never thought about. I will look for pictures. Last page I've posted some pictures of her children. Do you see the family likeness in them too? This would be very interesting for me. I often thought that her eldest son, which was a very beautiful child, must have the look of her family, he don't remember me to the Hohenzollern. Unfortunately I didn't put some 'solo-pics' of him here. I will look in my pictures for some. ;-))
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 08, 2008, 06:43:16 PM
You welcome ;)

Im so happy cause, finally i found fine pictures of her has a kid!

here s one

(http://i37.tinypic.com/27yal5f.jpg)


So cute!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 09, 2008, 10:34:18 AM
This is one of my favourite pictures of her (a very familiar one):

(http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/42222/2858098200100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

Looking dark!
(http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/42995/2178026040100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

In uniform with VL:
(http://inlinethumb56.webshots.com/33975/2996591900100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 09, 2008, 11:55:54 AM
Like the photo with Wilhelm, he looked smart in his suit and boots !
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on October 10, 2008, 04:58:13 PM
(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/xxCeciliemTchtern1928.jpg)

It is Cecilie with her two daughters in 1928, the girls very fashioned styled :-))
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on October 10, 2008, 05:02:18 PM
@ Adagietto: The first one of your pics is SO lovely! I've never seen it before, thank you! The Light is very tender in this picture.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 11, 2008, 06:44:50 AM
It's the lighting that makes it so effective. The second of your pictures is particularly nice I think. I like the one of her lying on the floor (it's funny how they were always altering that, adding a new child or an extra child).

Here are two relatively unfamiliar ones, the first showing her with a shooting-party, though her thoughts seem to be elsewhere!
(http://inlinethumb55.webshots.com/42166/2249015510100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

Going to open an exhibition. What amazing muffs!
(http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/42492/2520378020100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 11, 2008, 07:40:30 AM
I love love this one!

(http://i34.tinypic.com/dtzk7.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 20, 2008, 10:11:11 AM
New one for me

(http://i36.tinypic.com/x29bep.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 20, 2008, 11:56:37 AM
A composite picture. Sad they didn't usually have wedding photographs. Only saw those of Henrich and Irene & Agra with Henrich Reuss...
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: gogm on October 20, 2008, 12:02:21 PM
DARN! Cecilie in her wedding dress would make a wonderful photo!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 20, 2008, 02:00:50 PM
More of Cecilie


Illustration


(http://i38.tinypic.com/nyaaed.jpg)


Postcards

(http://i37.tinypic.com/2qwoprt.jpg)

(http://i38.tinypic.com/2wntkyv.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 20, 2008, 03:14:42 PM
The last one was one of a series on the engagement.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 20, 2008, 03:30:52 PM
She looks so unhappy :S
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: CountessKate on October 21, 2008, 07:13:52 AM
Quote
She looks so unhappy :S

Looking at the other pictures of her on this thread, there aren't many of her where she's smiling more than slightly - she wasn't part of a culture which expected a royal lady to bare her teeth to the media continually, just to have a pleasant expression.  I don't think she was unhappy in her engagement particularly - though I don't think they were a couple deeply in love, they seemed to get on reasonably well until later years and it's noticeable that they both have the same expression - slightly fed up, perhaps because of all the engagement photos!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 21, 2008, 01:41:31 PM
Yes I think they were able to be fed up.  ;)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 21, 2008, 01:43:03 PM
Sorry I meant just about going to be fed up by all this hoopla.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 24, 2008, 12:07:14 PM
Yes I guess they are not big on wedding photos...:(

the Hohenzollerns did not allow their civil and religious ceremonies to be photographed.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 24, 2008, 12:19:42 PM
Quote
She looks so unhappy :S

Looking at the other pictures of her on this thread, there aren't many of her where she's smiling more than slightly - she wasn't part of a culture which expected a royal lady to bare her teeth to the media continually, just to have a pleasant expression.  I don't think she was unhappy in her engagement particularly - though I don't think they were a couple deeply in love, they seemed to get on reasonably well until later years and it's noticeable that they both have the same expression - slightly fed up, perhaps because of all the engagement photos!

In her memoirs, she clearly was a happy fiancee and bride and mother in the early years. The war ruined everything that had subtance in Germany including many of the marriages. When external issues overwhelm a marriage, love alone does not always get a couple through.

Regarding her smiling in photographs, Cecilie (and Viktoria Luise) has several images where she is smiling gently. but, most photos of royals (or any others for that matter) of the period show no smiles at all. Very stern and straightforward. Cecelie did set a new standard wherein she, often times, gave a pleasing smile/look to her images that made her seem all the more beautiful.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 24, 2008, 01:09:16 PM
I read the marriage went sour early in their marriage but they stick with each other until after the first war.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 31, 2008, 05:56:49 AM
Presumably just before her marriage:
(http://inlinethumb18.webshots.com/44049/2731379560100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 31, 2008, 02:17:12 PM
Nice detail on the dress.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on October 31, 2008, 06:31:45 PM
It looks folksy, a sort of peasant pattern, perhaps not the kind of thing that she would have worn later on.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 31, 2008, 06:43:24 PM
A play on the Russian peasent ?  ;)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on November 02, 2008, 10:42:00 PM
That is very high-end German style embroidery. Not peasant by any stretch and definitely not Russian.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on November 04, 2008, 06:08:23 AM
I read the marriage went sour early in their marriage but they stick with each other until after the first war.

It's true. Sad to say the crown prince had many women while he was married. He had a very bad name in Germany, I beg apologize to write it here, he was used to be called the whore-goat (I hope I translate right), everybody knew that, he was very disliked because he did so.  I could not live with such a man and have with him one child after the other!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Learning on November 04, 2008, 08:40:07 AM
I think we've talked about this  before, but Cecilie lived at Schloss Cecilienhoff until the Russians got too close, then she went to Baden, correct? Did she have relatives there? Another castle or just an apartment? Was she financially comfortable until her death?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on November 04, 2008, 10:54:28 AM
First she lived in silesia with her six children, she refused to go to Holland with the crown prince. He was allowed to go back to Germany in 1923, if I remember right. But the years had partet them from each other.
They lived at Cecilienhof, that's true. After WWII Cecilie went to Bad Kissingen, there she lived in two poor rooms in a house, 'Villa Fürstenhof', in very simple conditions, she had not much money or funitures etc. 1952 she could move to a house in Stuttgart, which the crown prince, who died in 1951, had bought for her because they didn't live together, the marriage was broken. But she had had very hard times and seemed to be much older than she was and she had got different illness in the poor times, so she got a stroke in 1954 and died. Very sad story.  :(



This is the page about Cecilie at the official Page of the Prussian Family:

http://www.preussen.de/de/geschichte/kronprinz_wilhelm/kronprinzessin_cecilie.html
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Norbert on November 05, 2008, 11:07:19 AM
she had a companion, Otto Groha. Her  legacy to him was challenged successfully in court by her family
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on November 05, 2008, 03:16:53 PM
Yes, he helped her with many things. But they had no love affair. He was younger than her sons. He was sometimes strange, too, but she trusted him and wanted to give him precious things after her death and she told him many things about the Hohenzollern. The Hoehzollern family went to court after Cecilies death and said that she was mad and the things she gave to him should be given back.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 06, 2008, 02:54:58 PM
I am sure her sister Adini (Queen of Denmark) helped Cecilie during her most needy times...
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on November 07, 2008, 05:30:27 AM
I really hope so!  :( But if someone think about Cecilie in the Romm under the roof of the Fürstenhof, it coulnd't have been very much...

By  the way, do you know the mosaic in the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Gedächtniskirche in Berlin? I loved it very much when I was a little girl (and still do!!!), my mother and Grandpa had to go there with me very often. I loved an love Kaiser Friedrich III and my family liked him too since generations. But back to the mosaic:

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/MosaikKronprinzessin_Cecilie__Kronp.jpg
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 07, 2008, 01:59:03 PM
Yes...it works ! Thanks !

I love Fritz and Vicky too. Vicky was not an easy person to live with (so passionate and intelligent), and her disapointment with Willy was a hard pill to swallow. However I do think had she live long enough knew Cecilie, she would have been fond of her. Willy did not like Cecilie's mother (Grand Duchess Anastasia of Mecklenburg-Sherwin) and limit her stay in Berlin after the marriage.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on November 07, 2008, 06:33:30 PM
Thank you, Katenka and Eric!  :) I am very happy that you told this to me.

Oh Eric, you love him/them too? How nice!  :) I loved to hear this. To most people Friedrich is forgotten because he lived so short and so is his wife  :( .
I searched for Friedrichs picture from the mosaic but didn't found till yet. But I show you the part of the mosaic where Friedrich III is on. The Hohenzollern are at the church's ceiling from Burggraf Friedrich I (*1451 if I remember right so deep at night ;-) ) and on the right side from Jesus are the Hohenzollern ca from 1800, but only from the living ones are the women with them.

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/friedrichunddieandernKWGK_Mosaik_03.jpg
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on November 07, 2008, 06:42:12 PM
 :'( I thought I got this picture bigger. I'll post it later in bigger shape, it's too late for me now. Good night to you all!  ;)

@Eric: I forgot to write that Cecilie loved very much her father but lost him when she was ten. She had difficults with her mother for her whole life because her mother was very excentric. Perhaps she wasn't sad that Wilhelm II wouldn't allow her mother to come as often as she, the mother, would like. I don't know.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 07, 2008, 07:38:23 PM

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp298/Schweinehase/friedrichunddieandernKWGK_Mosaik_03.jpg


Very Beautiful!  :o :) :) :)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 08, 2008, 11:50:01 AM
Thanks Barbara for sharing the wonderful mosiac ! It was lovely and I was inside it. Sad though Augusta & Vicky were not in the lineup...

I think Cecilie loved her mother very much. There are postcards of her, her children with Grand Duchess Anastasia along with Adini, her children (Fred & Knut) and their bother...
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on November 08, 2008, 05:14:13 PM
Oh, then I'm very sorry for that.  :( I read it on the official page of the Preußen Family, but it is possible that they have the opinion as it was in the Hohenzollern Family in those days.
You're welcome for the mosaic!  :) How nice that you saw it in 'real life!' Yes, I too think its sad the both women weren't portraied there. Some others are, not only the Queen Luise, mother of the first Kaiser, which was a kind of Saint in Prussia, but on the side with the elder Hohenzollern too. I think Augusta and Victoria, which both were still alive (!) should have been there too.  :(
I forgot to write: I think as you that both Vicky and Cecilie could have been good friends. Both intelligent and Cecile from the north, Hamburg is often called in Germany to be 'very british' and Schwerin isn't so far away  ;) . It could have been a little bit of home for them both.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 08, 2008, 06:56:49 PM
I think Cecilie was sophiticaed and intelligent for Vicky. Vicky mellowed in old age and finally won the friendship of even Willy. When she died, Willy was out of the sickroom. He later scolded Dona for not calling him back when the end came ! It is sad that they (Cecilie and Vicky) never knew each other. I think she met her mother I think.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on November 21, 2008, 12:21:39 PM
I don't normally like the glossy British postcards as much as the German ones, but she comes over very well in this, as does her lovely blouse (from a well-known set of photographs taken around the time of her marriage).

(http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/41774/2894763620100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 21, 2008, 03:56:12 PM
Oh my!! she looks so pretty !!! Thanks for sharing this wonderful postcard!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on December 10, 2008, 03:54:08 PM
Leaving church I think:
(http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/41579/2968205680100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 10, 2008, 05:03:25 PM
Beautiful one! i adore Cecilie!!

This is one of my favorites..i wish i had it larger to colorize it!

(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk70/Stella_sabata/Irina%20and%20Olympia/CrownPrincessCecilieinfancydress.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on December 10, 2008, 05:38:13 PM
Nice; it looks as if she's wearing fancy dress, with a hair-style to go with it.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 10, 2008, 06:51:40 PM
Leaving church I think:
(http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/41579/2968205680100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

Wilhelm looks so petite and pinched, doesn't he? He has that effeminite look in so many photos.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on December 11, 2008, 04:38:52 AM
That's what I like about that picture, the awkwardness of Wilhelm, who looks rather like a puppet on a string, as compared with the cheerful spontaneity of Cecilie. 
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 11, 2008, 09:30:37 AM
Yes Wilhelm was "posing"....
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on December 11, 2008, 11:06:42 AM
... and it's so easy to trip over one's sword, so Cecilie had less to worry about.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 11, 2008, 11:22:50 AM
Indeed ...if not another people to step on her skirt...
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 11, 2008, 01:04:42 PM
... and it's so easy to trip over one's sword, so Cecilie had less to worry about.

yes, and he clearly seems to be stepping with one foot almost crossing over the path of the other, the way current female runway models walk.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on December 13, 2008, 04:53:00 AM
the awkwardness of Wilhelm, who looks rather like a puppet on a string, as compared with the cheerful spontaneity of Cecilie. 

Yes, in all his photos of the pre-1918 years he looks like a bad actor who fancies himself a superstar.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 13, 2008, 07:27:25 AM
Little Cecilie

(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk70/Stella_sabata/Cillynia.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on January 06, 2009, 11:23:18 PM
I've seen this bigger but here's a photo of Cecile with her family

(http://jsgelbensande.de/bild1_geschichte.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on January 07, 2009, 03:20:42 PM
Just a note:  in 1902 Cecilie was with her relatives in Russia and GD Mikhail, her grandfather, hoped she would catch an imagination of another GD Mikhail, brother of Emperor Nicholas II. In fact nothing came of the old GD's plan. Cecilie didn't have enough charm to be loved by her Romanov relatives as GDss Xenia put it in one of her letters to a  friend.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 08, 2009, 08:45:07 AM
Good for her. Her life would have been worse had she married into the Romanov Family...
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 08, 2009, 12:32:35 PM
Good for her. Her life would have been worse had she married into the Romanov Family...

I'll say. Cecilie had a great life in Germany, as she clearly outlines and savors in her memoirs. In spite of her husband's sometimes traudry behavior, she enjoyed life to its fullest. Had she been in the restrictive, somewhat oppressive Russian court (that did not take kindly to German princesses in the first place), Cecilie would probably not had a happy life.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 08, 2009, 01:19:22 PM
Not only that, she would be in perpectual exile from Russia. Cecilie was accorded with some freedom in Germany.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 13, 2009, 03:50:42 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Ceciliekronprinzessin1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Ceciliebuentamao-11.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 13, 2009, 08:41:40 AM
Cecilie wearing the ruby parure (necklace, bracelet and brooch).
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 13, 2009, 10:29:29 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Cillybeauty1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Cillyfancy1.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 13, 2009, 10:49:33 AM
Cecilie and sons

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2ntdbpw.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 13, 2009, 12:07:08 PM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Ceciliebeautifulportrait-11.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Cillyexcelentecalidad1.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 13, 2009, 03:41:32 PM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/2918053051_026d2aecb0_o1.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 13, 2009, 04:03:54 PM
Cecilie and Wilhelm II  living in Exile

(http://i42.tinypic.com/6sf6vt.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 13, 2009, 04:05:55 PM
Nice postcard. Did they live togather again after the war ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on January 14, 2009, 12:31:07 AM
Nice postcard. Did they live togather again after the war ?

After WW I they lived apart. As well as after WW II.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 14, 2009, 12:44:08 AM
Generally, they were apart,  but not on a permanent basis.

The Crown Prince was only in excile for a few years and returned to Germany in the early 1920s. Cecilie was never in excile and she lived at Potsdam since her home there was completed in 1917.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 14, 2009, 02:31:36 AM
Cecilie and Crown Prince :
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Ceciliewithhusband1.jpg)

Cecilie:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Ceciliecirca19051.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 14, 2009, 11:24:45 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Ceciliaandfirstborn1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Ceciliewithsons1.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 15, 2009, 07:15:16 PM
(http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/2992/ceciliewilhelmxu9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 16, 2009, 02:19:52 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/2299966300_e6d37f355f_o1.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 16, 2009, 09:11:32 AM
This is the most beautiful composite picture of Cecilie!

With little Wilhelm

(http://i44.tinypic.com/2cdk1t5.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 16, 2009, 12:41:56 PM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Cecilieaportrait1.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 16, 2009, 01:23:42 PM
The Wedding:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Ceciliewedding1.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 16, 2009, 01:56:30 PM
The person who did that composite picture chose wrong the original picture for the face! . Cecilie looks sad and dissapointed! xD

As Eric said before, Cecilie had a wonderful and warm Smile..this picture says it all...

(http://i44.tinypic.com/2dqnjt2.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 16, 2009, 01:59:35 PM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/CecilieofMecklenburglaterCecilie-11.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 17, 2009, 02:12:21 PM
Cecilie with Alexandrine and Cecilie

(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk70/Stella_sabata/Foto0043.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 17, 2009, 03:25:16 PM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/CeciliewithFritzengagedwithhercousi.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marc on January 17, 2009, 05:56:15 PM
Is this picture with her cousin Princess Maria Antonia von Mecklenburg or...?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on January 18, 2009, 03:13:02 AM
Is this picture with her cousin Princess Maria Antonia von Mecklenburg or...?

Yes, with Maria Antonia, taken in 1905.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marc on January 18, 2009, 06:25:57 AM
I have read in a one book that she was considered a bride for King Alfonso XIII of Spain...was that because of the fact that her cousin Cecilie ws a Crown Princess of Germeny and Maria Antonia was from the Catholic branch of the family?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 18, 2009, 08:29:46 AM
Cecilie:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Ceciliein19051.jpg)

Cecilie, husband and baby:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Ceciliewithhusbandansson1.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 18, 2009, 10:32:04 AM
Cecilie and Herminie, Kaiser Willie`s second wife

(http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5682/foto0018ny1.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on January 18, 2009, 04:43:20 PM
It's a photo. I don't think it is safe to assume a mild grin to indicate their personal feelings.

I recall nothing in Ceclie's memoirs that suggest she felt anything particularly positive about hermine.

As Cecelie aged, she really seemed to "grow". Not just in overall weight, but her features such as her feet, shoulders etc appear quite large in her post WWI pictures. How tall was she? based on her later photos, I bet she was 6 feet or more.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 18, 2009, 04:55:36 PM
Well...It seems the realtionship was cordial to say the least.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on January 18, 2009, 06:21:54 PM
woah wait...how tall was Cecile?  :P ::) :-\
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on January 19, 2009, 12:56:11 AM
I have read in a one book that she was considered a bride for King Alfonso XIII of Spain...was that because of the fact that her cousin Cecilie ws a Crown Princess of Germeny and Maria Antonia was from the Catholic branch of the family?

She was the Catholic Princess and that's the reason.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 19, 2009, 09:01:34 AM
Was she ? I thought the Hohenzollerns were Protestants ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on January 19, 2009, 10:42:21 AM
Was she ? I thought the Hohenzollerns were Protestants ?

Duke Paul Friedrich converted Catholicism to marry Princess Marie Windisch-Graetz. Their children were Catholics.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 19, 2009, 01:16:39 PM
I see...A male convert. Rare in royal families.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on February 05, 2009, 05:14:53 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Ceciandgreathat1.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on February 05, 2009, 10:34:26 AM
Cecilie and family

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2vkhrsw.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 05, 2009, 11:22:42 AM
Anybody knows the relationship with her children ? Louis Ferdinand did not talk much about his mother in his bio...
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 05, 2009, 06:00:35 PM
According to her memoirs, she enjoyed a delightful and loving relationship with her children. Very similar to Dona and her kids.

The photo of above showing the 4 young princes...I believe it is louis ferdinand on the left. I love the faux-hawk! He was 100 years ahead of his time!  :)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 05, 2009, 06:22:05 PM
That is not much. I would be thinking if she supported Wilhelm to marry the girl he loved ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on February 05, 2009, 06:40:30 PM
According to her memoirs, she enjoyed a delightful and loving relationship with her children. Very similar to Dona and her kids.

The photo of above showing the 4 young princes...I believe it is louis ferdinand on the left. I love the faux-hawk! He was 100 years ahead of his time!  :)

There's an even better photo of LF with the 'do. I'm not sure if it's posted on her somewhere or not--I seem to remember seeing it. If not, I'll dig it up.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 06, 2009, 10:01:07 AM
That would be nice.

I do wonder how close was she when they start to think her crazy (visiting Anna Anderson...etc).
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 08, 2009, 06:38:53 PM
The Crown Prince is bit  strange. He liked to disrupt bedtime for his sons with the his dogs making his sons wild and running about, and at the end takes bathroom jug and dumps it on his son Louis Ferdinand "LuLu" and on the poor boy's bed.
From Charlotte Zeepvat’s book “From Cradle to Crown”.

As a child, Lulu seems to me an imperious timid boy like his grandfather Willy was like as a small child.  

Forgive me if it wrong, I'm still kinda new with The Hohenzollern family.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on February 08, 2009, 07:42:03 PM
According to her memoirs, she enjoyed a delightful and loving relationship with her children. Very similar to Dona and her kids.

The photo of above showing the 4 young princes...I believe it is louis ferdinand on the left. I love the faux-hawk! He was 100 years ahead of his time!  :)

There's an even better photo of LF with the 'do. I'm not sure if it's posted on her somewhere or not--I seem to remember seeing it. If not, I'll dig it up.


This one?

(http://i39.tinypic.com/24wersx.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on February 08, 2009, 08:53:20 PM
A similar one--but it's from that sitting, yes.  :)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 08, 2009, 10:39:47 PM
I think that's such a scream how Louis Ferdinand has his hair fixed! He looks so cute and so 21st century!

I've never seen another royal youngster with a similar 'do'. I bet HE loved it and his parents acquiesced.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Svetabel on February 09, 2009, 12:49:32 AM
I think that's such a scream how Louis Ferdinand has his hair fixed! He looks so cute and so 21st century!


His hair-do was a constant headache for nis nannies as they wanted it to look clean-cut but the hair "refused" to behave properly : )
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 09, 2009, 10:09:01 AM
His nannies discovered the first step in marketing...if you have lemons, make lemonade!  :)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 09, 2009, 12:33:08 PM
How crazy was Cecilie ? Did she suffer a breakdown ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 09, 2009, 01:21:19 PM
She wasn't "crazy" at all. In fact, she held herself calm and in control through most of the utter turmoil of the war and revolution better than most of her peers. She also handled her husband's disloyalty with much the grace that queen alexandra did with edward VII.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 09, 2009, 03:05:49 PM
I think it was the Anna Anderson trial that Louis Ferdinand indicated his mother was not well and her testimony should not be trusted.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 09, 2009, 04:02:25 PM
The Anna Anderson trial is covered completely in the Romanov threads, but I recall that the Crown Princess' testimony both relative to Anna Anderson and the supposed trip of Ernst Ludwig to Russia in 1916 was considered to be of higher credibility than many of the other royal witnesses.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 10, 2009, 09:52:37 AM
I think so too, but why would Louis Ferdinand discredit his own mother's testimony and indicated that she was crazy. That did not make sense. Had Cecilie fallen out with her own family ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 10, 2009, 10:48:34 AM
Eric, can you provide the data that indicates LF claimed his mother to be crazy and in so doing, discredited her testimony? I am unaware of this episode; anyone else?

Was this later in his life after Cecilie had passed away?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 10, 2009, 10:58:47 AM
It was during the second trial in Germany. Several books wrote about it and it is not new material. Louis Ferdinand and his Russian wife Kira testified against Anna Anderson. He countered his mother's support for Anna by stating that his mother was ill (crazy) and her testimony should not be trusted. I think that was a slap in the face for Cecilie unless she was really nutty. That is why I question how close Cecilie was to her children (especially with Louis Ferdinand) at this stage.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ashdean on February 16, 2009, 11:39:58 AM
It was during the second trial in Germany. Several books wrote about it and it is not new material. Louis Ferdinand and his Russian wife Kira testified against Anna Anderson. He countered his mother's support for Anna by stating that his mother was ill (crazy) and her testimony should not be trusted. I think that was a slap in the face for Cecilie unless she was really nutty. That is why I question how close Cecilie was to her children (especially with Louis Ferdinand) at this stage.
But can you tell us EXACTLY where to look it up Eric.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 16, 2009, 02:08:37 PM
The trial is written up in detail in Summer's "The File on the Tsar" and Kurth's "The Riddle of Anna Anderson". The trials in Hamburg and the varies testimonies are recored in full...
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 16, 2009, 03:14:37 PM
yes, we know the sources for trial transcripts, but Eric you said Louis Ferdinand proclaimed his mother to be crazy, and this is the documentation we would like to know exists. thanks.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 17, 2009, 09:47:50 AM
I think his words were his mother was "ill" and her testimony on behalf of Anna should be set aside.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on February 17, 2009, 01:33:53 PM
Cite your source .. saying "I think"  doesn't hold water ....

I think his words were his mother was "ill" and her testimony on behalf of Anna should be set aside.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 17, 2009, 01:58:28 PM
I already listed the books. They held a lot of water. Also as a German yourself, you know that there are trial documents that would be available in court in Hamburg.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: ashdean on February 17, 2009, 03:20:34 PM
I already listed the books. They held a lot of water. Also as a German yourself, you know that there are trial documents that would be available in court in Hamburg.
The trouble is Eric....you make a statement which indeed might be fact but never prove it when challenged...but you always expect everyone else to verify any statement they make AND never give them the benefit of the doubt!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on February 17, 2009, 03:22:10 PM
You listed the books - that's not good enough.  A good citation includes the actual quote - and the page number of the book ...

And when did I become a German ..

I already listed the books. They held a lot of water. Also as a German yourself, you know that there are trial documents that would be available in court in Hamburg.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 17, 2009, 05:47:03 PM
Well...My book is in storage and not available to me.

I thought you said your ancestors went to school with Kaiser Wilhelm II ? Was it a misquote from your book ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on February 18, 2009, 09:36:07 AM


Yes a great-great-great (I think I got enough greats) was a playmate of the Kaiiser when they were children ---  I certainly have German ancestry - as all of my grandparents were born in Germany, but I am not a German. 
Well...My book is in storage and not available to me.

I thought you said your ancestors went to school with Kaiser Wilhelm II ? Was it a misquote from your book ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on February 18, 2009, 09:38:17 AM
Excuses .. well, I looked in Peter Kurth's book last night, and the only reference to Louis Ferdinand was about his wife who testified at the trial.  Kira talks about how Cecilie's view of the situation, and how Kira disagreed. 
Well...My book is in storage and not available to me.

I thought you said your ancestors went to school with Kaiser Wilhelm II ? Was it a misquote from your book ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 18, 2009, 10:31:53 AM
Did you also looked at "The File On The Tsar" ? by Anthony Summers ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on February 18, 2009, 11:06:21 AM
I could imagine it made for a relatively tense situation if Cecile 'sided' with Anna Anderson since Kira's (her DIL) father and brother were the ones who claimed the throne and, I suppose, all that went with it if it was ever recovered. Louis Ferdinand would have been in a rather difficult position.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on February 18, 2009, 11:23:50 AM
Eric, I am not here to do your work.   I had a chance to glance at Peter's book --en route to my office at home .. I walk through my library to get there..   I am not going to spend a lot of time on it  as I have a deadline for an article.  -

Did you also looked at "The File On The Tsar" ? by Anthony Summers ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 19, 2009, 10:13:48 AM
Sorry about that. We can wait another time then. Good luck on your article !
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 23, 2009, 11:11:58 AM
Well, I've looked through the sources easily accessible to me and found nothing about Louis Ferdinand testifying that his mother was crazy.

Never heard this and cannot find any validity to the charge. Eric, I think you totally exaggerated this one.  ;)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 23, 2009, 03:16:59 PM
No I do not exergreate it.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 24, 2009, 04:35:24 PM
I found Louis Ferdinand's english memoirs. It looks really cool. I'm going to read it after i read "The last Romantic" about of Marie of Romania. I have just finished Louisa of Tuscany (x-crown Princess of Saxony)'s memoirs. really good.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on February 25, 2009, 01:08:33 PM
Do please let us know if he says anything about his mother's 'illness' during the Anna Anderson case!!!!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 25, 2009, 02:38:46 PM
I think it wason "The File on the Tsar". Louis Ferdinand and his mother were at odds at the Anastasia case.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on February 25, 2009, 02:54:56 PM
Sorry, my question was aimed toward Mandie, the Gothic Empress as she has found Louis Ferdinand's memoirs in English!

I think it wason "The File on the Tsar". Louis Ferdinand and his mother were at odds at the Anastasia case.
Do please let us know if he says anything about his mother's 'illness' during the Anna Anderson case!!!!
I found Louis Ferdinand's english memoirs. It looks really cool. I'm going to read it after i read "The last Romantic" about of Marie of Romania. I have just finished Louisa of Tuscany (x-crown Princess of Saxony)'s memoirs. really good.

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on February 26, 2009, 02:43:15 PM
I believe Louis Ferdinand's English-language memoirs were published before the trial ...early 1950s, I think.  I have a copy in my library (with LF's autograph)


S


orry, my question was aimed toward Mandie, the Gothic Empress as she has found Louis Ferdinand's memoirs in English!

I think it wason "The File on the Tsar". Louis Ferdinand and his mother were at odds at the Anastasia case.
Do please let us know if he says anything about his mother's 'illness' during the Anna Anderson case!!!!
I found Louis Ferdinand's english memoirs. It looks really cool. I'm going to read it after i read "The last Romantic" about of Marie of Romania. I have just finished Louisa of Tuscany (x-crown Princess of Saxony)'s memoirs. really good.


Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 26, 2009, 03:28:06 PM
Yep, it was published in 1952.

I don't like Anna Anderson, NEVER believe she was the Grand Duchess Anastasia. so i never read about her.

What year the trial was going on?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on February 27, 2009, 12:30:34 PM
Cheers Marlene and Mandie for pointing out the date issue. Shame LF wrote his memoirs before the trial! Ho-hum! Never mind!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on February 27, 2009, 01:24:34 PM
The first legal proceeding was in 1938 when AA initiated a suit to claim any inheritance of the late Empress. Cecile died in 1954. There were several decades of court cases dragging out until the 1970s. What ones exactly did Cecile testify in/give depositions for?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on February 27, 2009, 02:31:29 PM

Yes but the actual trial regarding her identiity began in the late 50s -- one year, I was coming back from Germany ... on the plane and looking at the royal postcards that I had bought while over there ... and the young woman sitting next to me commented on my Empress Alexandra cards -- well it turned out that she was the granddaughter of Anna Anderson's lawyer ...

you never know who you are going to be sitting to -- coming back from DC to NYC when Charles and Diana (and I had covered part of their visit for AP) were in DC ... sitting next to me on the plane ... it was her Mellon Bank credit card that caught my eye as she paid for her snack ... so of course we started talking ... she was Senator Warner's daughter and Paul Mellon's granddaughter and she had just come from the private lunch that Paul Mellon had for the Wales' at his home in VA ... she gave me all the juicy details of what was on the menu, what Diana wore, etc ... (mind you no press could near the estate) .... when I got off that plane, I headed straight for the payphone to call the desk editor at AP and gave him the scoop of the night ... AP was the first to file a story about the details of the lunch (and I did tell the Warner girl who I was, so the details were obtained legally)

The first legal proceeding was in 1938 when AA initiated a suit to claim any inheritance of the late Empress. Cecile died in 1954. There were several decades of court cases dragging out until the 1970s. What ones exactly did Cecile testify in/give depositions for?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 27, 2009, 02:40:03 PM
Interesting story, Marlene.

So, are the dates of the trial and the memoir of LF indicating that the claim he callled his mother 'crazy' untrue? Sounds like it to me.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 27, 2009, 03:23:24 PM
I don't think he used the word crazy but she was "ill" and her testimony for Anna should be disgarded.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on February 27, 2009, 03:36:55 PM
I think so too, but why would Louis Ferdinand discredit his own mother's testimony and indicated that she was crazy. That did not make sense. Had Cecilie fallen out with her own family ?

You used the word 'crazy' Eric, I guess Herr Kaiser was merely 'quoting'!!!!!


I don't think he used the word crazy but she was "ill" and her testimony for Anna should be disgarded.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 27, 2009, 03:39:34 PM
Crazy, sick, ill, not to be taken seriously. That is what implied by Louis Ferdinand's testimony on his mother. Would you do that to your mother ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on February 27, 2009, 03:54:17 PM
I would never bring such 'personal' feelings into play on a forum such as this! It would hardly have any relevance to the discussion!

All I have done is point out that you corrected Herr Kaiser and I felt compelled to point out where he probably got the impression that Cecilie was 'crazy', from you. It really does demonstrate to one, how careful one must be in writing 'cliches' rather than directly sourced quotable facts etc.... you wrote 'crazy' he merely quoted it and then you the author, responded with a  counter argument questioning the use of the word 'crazy'. That is a 'fact'.....I rest my case!

 
Crazy, sick, ill, not to be taken seriously. That is what implied by Louis Ferdinand's testimony on his mother. Would you do that to your mother ?
I think so too, but why would Louis Ferdinand discredit his own mother's testimony and indicated that she was crazy. That did not make sense. Had Cecilie fallen out with her own family ?
Interesting story, Marlene.

So, are the dates of the trial and the memoir of LF indicating that the claim he callled his mother 'crazy' untrue? Sounds like it to me.


You used the word 'crazy' Eric, I guess Herr Kaiser was merely 'quoting'!!!!!


I don't think he used the word crazy but she was "ill" and her testimony for Anna should be disgarded.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 27, 2009, 04:00:59 PM
Your case has long rested. knit pecking is not helpful to a discussion as well.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Vecchiolarry on February 27, 2009, 04:40:30 PM
Hi,

"knit pecking" - I have visions of a bunch of hens knitting socks or something!!!!!!!
Hilarious!!!

I think you meant "nit picking" - but thanks for the laugh....

Larry
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 27, 2009, 04:46:34 PM
You are right.

Lets go back to the original argument that did the trial affect the relationship between Louis Ferdinard & Cecilie. They were on opposing sides.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on February 27, 2009, 06:14:35 PM
Oh dear...I have been roused from 'resting' my case. I am beginning to feel like I am in a court room!

Out of courtesy to others I will refrain from lowering the tone of this thread by responding to an ill conceived and somewhat bizarrely worded personal comment directed at me. Should the author of the 'knit pecking' comment wish to make such comments, I would suggest , with due consideration to our fellow members, that the member in question reserve such comments for PMs if they feel they must dash off such 'personal' observations!
 
Moreover, I would like to take this opportunity to 'openly' thank Herr Kaiser for bringing into question by his clever use of quotation marks, the word 'crazy.' What it subsequently provoked was I feel, a most interesting discussion, brought about by the initial response of the author of the said comment in its original context. I for one, found the said author's response in correcting Herr Kaiser in 'his' use of the word extraordinarily audacious, when one considers who actually penned the phrase using the word 'crazy' originally!

 I trust that we shall continue to strive for excellence and endeavour to maintain a coherent and acceptable standard of respect for one another and for the treatment of 'facts' we share amongst ourselves in the forum. I hope that Herrkaiser will accept my grateful thanks for bringing this most interesting point of order to the attention of the rest us, and hope that eventually we will perhaps eventually come to know more about the true extent of Cecilie's health during the trial into AA's identity through rational and substantiated facts rather than cliched impressions!

 




Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 27, 2009, 06:20:17 PM
I am still waiting for more info on what the trial had on the relationship.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on February 27, 2009, 09:09:44 PM
May I suggest that if you are still waiting for more information from this thread, you may find it more quickly if you went to your local library, as you have already explained that you have not got access to your own books etc!

I am still waiting for more info on what the trial had on the relationship.



Moving on..... does any one know of useful sources or anything about Cecilie's opinions of her daughter in law Bridget. I would love to know how she felt about having an Anglo - Irish brewer cum Earl as the father in law of her son! (I am being a tad facetious I know, but his money did come from a brewery all the same!)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 28, 2009, 12:09:57 PM
Thank you Alixaannencova for your very professional, intellectual and kind points about clarity and courtesy in the posts. Everything you wrote is abundantly fair and logical, and hopefully your message and thoughts will be absorbed as the good advice they truly are. Vielen Dank!  :)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 28, 2009, 02:22:34 PM
Not really...If you are in Pamama.

Anyway, I will have to assume that Louis Ferdinand had a tift with his mother Cecilie. Because he was in fact telling the court in Hamburg to disgregard his mother's testimony for Anna Anderson in favour of his wife Kira's, which was against.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on February 28, 2009, 03:40:00 PM
You have all my sympathy Eric with regards to not having access to your personal library. Being in Panama must be rather a challenge. In fact I am in just such a 'boat' myself at the moment (though not off Panama of course!!!!) so I can fully empathize with you here.

Anyway, I look forward to the time when you can provide us with quotes, sources and referencing as per the below with great interest!



It was during the second trial in Germany. Several books wrote about it and it is not new material. Louis Ferdinand and his Russian wife Kira testified against Anna Anderson. He countered his mother's support for Anna by stating that his mother was ill (crazy) and her testimony should not be trusted. I think that was a slap in the face for Cecilie unless she was really nutty. That is why I question how close Cecilie was to her children (especially with Louis Ferdinand) at this stage.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 01, 2009, 04:19:02 AM


Out of courtesy to others I will refrain from lowering the tone of this thread by responding to an ill conceived and somewhat bizarrely worded personal comment directed at me. Should the author of the 'knit pecking' comment wish to make such comments, I would suggest , with due consideration to our fellow members, that the member in question reserve such comments for PMs if they feel they must dash off such 'personal' observations!
 

Beautifully written my dear. I aspire to follow your example!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 01, 2009, 10:48:56 AM
Too kind of you Eddie dear!

Now back to Cecilie....I am still curious about how she felt about Bridget?  Any thoughts would be hugely appreciated!


Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 01, 2009, 11:42:21 AM
It would help if I spelt her name correctly....it should read Brigid! Sorry!

I understand that there is a rumour that Frederick was gay...is there any basis to this? It would seem quite extraordinary that Honor and Brigid both married gay/bisexual men!!

Did Cecilie attend the wedding at Little Hadham?

Is there any basis to the story that Princess Antonia, Marchioness of Douro inherited 65 million pounds from the Guinness coffers all to herself, or is that the figure (early '90s figure I believe) that which Frederick and Brigid's children inherited jointly from their uber rich mummy? I am sure Marlene would know....I found her write up about Frederick from her book so she will hopefully be able to shed some more light of these most interesting and rather colourful members of Cecilie's family!


 
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 01, 2009, 04:25:24 PM
I would really love to have some books cover the lives of children of Cecilie. In the current venue, you get an article here and another there. Not quite satisfying...
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 01, 2009, 05:01:10 PM
Especially on Frederick. I read on a forum that Marlene wrote on ages ago, where some one else mentioned that he, Frederick was gay and also that he was anti - nazi. Hardly surprising political proclivities if he was homosexual. Marlene did not respond to these posts, that I could find, anyway.

I wonder if Frederick had to renounce his place in the order of succession upon his marriage? I assume he must have had to really, if the 'morganatic' rule was still in place at the time. Then again all those millions that Brigid brought into the family may have swayed opinion in her favour and lead to a 'bending' of the rules...I do wonder about that!

The fact that Frederick lived in England and became naturalized is also interesting as is his case for compensation of the property he lost in Poland, and his petition to the British government for part of the money the Government could grant to British subjects after the nationalization of the lands in Poland. It was terribly complicated but nonetheless interesting.

It is also fascinating to think that one of the Kaiser's great grand daughters will probably one day be Duchess of Wellington...goodness how the fates do twist and turn! 


 
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 01, 2009, 06:20:55 PM
Who is going to be Duchess of Wellington ? You do must enlighten me on this.

It would seem like Frederick had quite a dramatic life...quite worthy of an article or even a book. :-)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 01, 2009, 06:42:19 PM
I feel like a bit of an old gossip, but anyway, I was referring to Frederick's daughter Antonia, her husband is the Marquess of Douro, the eldest son and heir of the present Duke of Wellington!

She is in charge of the Guinness trust and her daughter in law Jemma, Countess of Mornington is the sister of Jodie Kidd the model! The Kidds are great grand children of the press baron Lord Beaverbrook! There grandmother, was Beaverbrook's daughter Janet. All this is nothing more than mere tittle tattle...but nonetheless may be quite interesting to some of you! By the way, Antonia's maternal aunt Honor was married to 'Chips' Channon, and their son was Paul Channon, Lord Kelvedon. His daughter Olivia was a bit of a tragic party animal who died of a drugs overdose in 1986 whilst studying at Oxford and as daddy was in the cabinet and one of Maggie Thatcher's favourites, the tragedy was plastered all over the tabloids! Pretty mundane stuff I am afraid!

I believe Marlene has spent time with the children of Frederick and Brigid so she may have oodles of goodies!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 01, 2009, 07:27:24 PM
As another twist in the story about the Antonia's cousin, Olivia. The latter died in the rooms of the even more notorious party animal, Count Gottfried von Bismarck great great grandson of the Iron Chancellor! Talk about odd twists in fate yet again!

Anyway, Count Gottfried seems to have been dogged by tragedy, as in 2006, twenty years after Olivia died in his rooms at Oxford, a guest at what some tabloids dubbed as an 'orgy' at his flat in Chelsea, fell out of a window and was killed! The press dubbed Bismarck as carrying a 'curse.' It must have been dreadful for the poor Count though!

He died a year later and during the inquest into his death, the pathologist stated that Bismarck's body 'contained the highest level of cocaine he had ever seen, as well as morphine!.

Sounds very hedonistic and sad to me!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Charity on March 01, 2009, 11:05:20 PM
Interesting indeed, alixaannencova!  I always like to hear about the descendants of those royals I spend my time reading up on.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 01, 2009, 11:42:38 PM
Going back to Antonia and her husband....when he succeeds as 9th Duke of Wellington, he will also join the ranks of 'Euro' royalty when he becomes Prince of Waterloo. I believe within the Netherlands he would have the right to be styled Highness, though I am not sure that this is in fact true. Maybe he will be a 'serene' Highness. Anyway, he will also be a Spanish Duke and a Portuguese Duke, Marquess and Count to boot! The Princely title does not affect the order of precedence in Britain where the present Duke takes his precedence as the premier Duke of the realm of the United Kingdom, between the previous, His 'Irish' Grace of Leinster, and the Duke of Sutherland (Presently second in precedence of the UK Dukes). 

I understand that the Belgians grumbled for decades about having to pay annual 'tribute' to the the 1st Duke's descendants as Princes of Waterloo! But I believe this is now settled and that the current Duke/Prince was given outright ownership of some portion of land in return for foregoing 'feudal' sounding tribute! Can you imagine receiving 'tribute' in the last years of the twentieth century... it seems too colourful to believe! Saying that, I am not too sure that the word 'tribute' was ever actually used, apart from in a purely 'historical' context! But I do find it fascinating nonetheless, that those lovely big fat cheques annually wending their way over the straits of Dover to Stratfield Saye were known and regarded as such in some quarters!

 
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Terence on March 02, 2009, 12:59:36 AM
I understand that the Belgians grumbled for decades about having to pay annual 'tribute' to the the 1st Duke's descendants as Princes of Waterloo! But I believe this is now settled and that the current Duke/Prince was given outright ownership of some portion of land in return for foregoing 'feudal' sounding tribute! Can you imagine receiving 'tribute' in the last years of the twentieth century... it seems too colourful to believe! Saying that, I am not too sure that the word 'tribute' was ever actually used, apart from in a purely 'historical' context! But I do find it fascinating nonetheless, that those lovely big fat cheques annually wending their way over the straits of Dover to Stratfield Saye were known and regarded as such in some quarters!

Can you clarify this for us less knowlegable?  Who is getting paid from whom?  Based on...?

Just trying to learn,
T
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 02, 2009, 03:17:19 AM
Sorry I went off on a tangent...I am now back to talking about Princess Cecilie's grand daughter and grand son in law, Princess Antonia of Prussia (Daughter of Prince Frederick and Lady Brigid Guinness) and the Marquess of Douro! I was just babbling about the fact that Douro will in time become Prince of Waterloo as well as Duke of Wellington!

It is simpler if you wish to read more about the case of the Dukes of Wellington who are also Princes of Waterloo and their property rights etc, the following articles below should help to explain:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonian_Forest
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9E00E0DE1238E033A2575BC0A9649C94659FD7CF
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/609869.stm

I do hope they work for any one interested!

Then there is also:-

www.historyhome.co.uk/pms/wellingt.htm which touches on the issue of rewards after Waterloo...go down the page until you reach events of 1814...as this is a huge page to plough through for such a tiny paragraph about the estate given to the first Duke!




Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 02, 2009, 10:33:11 AM
I agree the situation is pretty ironic.

What about Cecilie's relationship with her daughters ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 02, 2009, 12:39:54 PM
Haven't the foggiest about Ceciie's relationships with any of her children actually! But would be most interested to learn!

It would be interesting to contemplate what if Georgie and May's youngest, Johnnie had had 'down's' like Cecilie and Wilhelm's daughter Alexandrine, instead of epilepsy, and whether G and M would have been more open and 'positive' about things like Cecilie and Wilhelm were, had Johnnie had Down's instead! But then again 'what if's' are not really very useful in this context.

With regards to morganatic marriages, I wonder how Cecilie felt about her father - in -law's view that 'We are thoroughbreds.' Perhaps by the time Frederick married Brigid, Cecilie had become use to the idea of 'unequal' marriages, after all there were rather more important things going on, what with the terrible conditions in post war Europe at the time of Frederick and Brigid's nuptials! Perhaps because Brigid was filthy rich, her entree into the family was somewhat easier than those of Dorothea von Salviati or Baroness Maria von Humboldt - Dachroeden!

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 02, 2009, 05:23:51 PM
I don't know if there are any new bios of Cecilie in German...
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on March 02, 2009, 08:46:51 PM
There was a photobook on Cecile published a few years ago.

I think there's a good deal of info on Cecile's relationship with Cecile Jr scattered throughout the forum.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 03, 2009, 02:10:05 PM
George and Mary never hid their son. He was photographed with them - there are dozens of postcards of Johnnie, alone and with his siblings.  It was onlly when he became older and his illnesses became worse, did his family send him to Wolferton.

the von Salviati marriage was unequal but not the Humboldt-Dachroeden marriage (wihich lasted only a few years), nor was Friedrich's marriage to Lady Brigid unequal.  She was a Guinness marriage.

Haven't the foggiest about Ceciie's relationships with any of her children actually! But would be most interested to learn!

It would be interesting to contemplate what if Georgie and May's youngest, Johnnie had had 'down's' like Cecilie and Wilhelm's daughter Alexandrine, instead of epilepsy, and whether G and M would have been more open and 'positive' about things like Cecilie and Wilhelm were, had Johnnie had Down's instead! But then again 'what if's' are not really very useful in this context.

With regards to morganatic marriages, I wonder how Cecilie felt about her father - in -law's view that 'We are thoroughbreds.' Perhaps by the time Frederick married Brigid, Cecilie had become use to the idea of 'unequal' marriages, after all there were rather more important things going on, what with the terrible conditions in post war Europe at the time of Frederick and Brigid's nuptials! Perhaps because Brigid was filthy rich, her entree into the family was somewhat easier than those of Dorothea von Salviati or Baroness Maria von Humboldt - Dachroeden!


Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 03, 2009, 02:16:38 PM
So when were the morganatic rules relaxed within the House of Hohenzollern? At the time of the Humboldt - Dachroeden marriage? Are Frederick and Brigid's son Frederick Nicholas and his brothers included in the present line of succession to the German/Prussian throne?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 03, 2009, 02:26:10 PM
Themarriages needed approval -- William's wife was a mere von.  Hubertus's first wife was a Baroness (and itw as during the war).  Hubertus did better the second time around.

Friedrich's wife was the daughter of an earl - and a rich earl at that.  By that time, Prince Oskar's wife and children had been upgraded.  None of his three sons married equally so they are out of the line of succession. 


So when were the morganatic rules relaxed within the House of Hohenzollern? At the time of the Humboldt - Dachroeden marriage? Are Frederick and Brigid's son Frederick Nicholas and his brothers included in the present line of succession to the German/Prussian throne?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 03, 2009, 02:38:20 PM
I assume by none of his three sons, you are referring to Frederick and Brigid's boys?

Frederick Nicholas is married to to the daughter of the 2nd Lord Mancroft, who may have been two steps below an Earl....but does that mean that Hon. Victoria Mancroft was deemed unequal as a bride because she did not have huge trust fund. The rules seem to have been/were very felxible, especially if lucre as well as a titled Daddy were involved? I mean Brigid was the daughter of the second Earl of Iveagh and Victoria is the daughter of the second Baron Mancroft, both came from what is in Britain, regarded as aristocratic backgrounds, but I take it that within the Hohenzollern family such criteria is broken down further?

 
Themarriages needed approval -- William's wife was a mere von.  Hubertus's first wife was a Baroness (and itw as during the war).  Hubertus did better the second time around.

Friedrich's wife was the daughter of an earl - and a rich earl at that.  By that time, Prince Oskar's wife and children had been upgraded.  None of his three sons married equally so they are out of the line of succession. 


So when were the morganatic rules relaxed within the House of Hohenzollern? At the time of the Humboldt - Dachroeden marriage? Are Frederick and Brigid's son Frederick Nicholas and his brothers included in the present line of succession to the German/Prussian throne?

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 03, 2009, 02:50:10 PM

LF did not recognize Nicholas' marriage as equal because her father was a Baron.  He did accept the marriages of two of his sons to Countesses. 
I assume by none of his three sons, you are referring to Frederick and Brigid's boys?

Frederick Nicholas is married to to the daughter of the 2nd Lord Mancroft, who may have been two steps below an Earl....but does that mean that Hon. Victoria Mancroft was deemed unequal as a bride because she did not have huge trust fund. The rules seem to have been/were very felxible, especially if lucre as well as a titled Daddy were involved? I mean Brigid was the daughter of the second Earl of Iveagh and Victoria is the daughter of the second Baron Mancroft, both came from what is in Britain, regarded as aristocratic backgrounds, but I take it that within the Hohenzollern family such criteria is broken down further?

 
Themarriages needed approval -- William's wife was a mere von.  Hubertus's first wife was a Baroness (and itw as during the war).  Hubertus did better the second time around.

Friedrich's wife was the daughter of an earl - and a rich earl at that.  By that time, Prince Oskar's wife and children had been upgraded.  None of his three sons married equally so they are out of the line of succession. 


So when were the morganatic rules relaxed within the House of Hohenzollern? At the time of the Humboldt - Dachroeden marriage? Are Frederick and Brigid's son Frederick Nicholas and his brothers included in the present line of succession to the German/Prussian throne?


Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 03, 2009, 02:59:58 PM
Ta very much for the clarification Marlene... I knew you would be able to enlighten me on this issue of equal marriages!


Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 03, 2009, 03:19:29 PM


That's only because I asked LF some years ago about this.  As all live in the UK, the children use the surname von Preussen. 

Ta very much for the clarification Marlene... I knew you would be able to enlighten me on this issue of equal marriages!



Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 03, 2009, 04:55:38 PM
Indeed. Most former Royal families put the Von before their former title. It isquite common in Germany.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 03, 2009, 05:33:22 PM
I am waiting for you to add 'Not a lot of people know that' a la Michael Caine, Eric!!!!!! I mean really....!!! Also the 'von' does not go before their title, but before the designated geographical area or surname by custom. I do not believe I have ever seen a Von Prince.... but then heaps of people know that!


Indeed. Most former Royal families put the Von before their former title. It isquite common in Germany.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 03, 2009, 05:35:05 PM
I would not dare...It is common knowledge.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 03, 2009, 05:38:39 PM
But not so common for you, not to nonetheless feel like re-iterating?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 03, 2009, 10:58:21 PM

Eric -- that's because the von is a part of the title ... even before the revolution.

Indeed. Most former Royal families put the Von before their former title. It isquite common in Germany.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 03, 2009, 11:56:27 PM
Goodness... how indulgent of you Marlene! I really thought someone would have bitten!

Anyway, without further-a-do and less waffle/nonsense/inane comments that seem to me IMHO to take up rather a lot of our precious space and sometimes seem to verge on the pollutant, here on the forum, and generally proves of little use in our discussions, what of Cecilie...hmmm...?

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 04, 2009, 01:35:55 AM
With regards to maintaining the integrity of Cecilie's thread.... I would just like to (IMHO) point out that there is a percentage of posts here within, that I see as unnecessary and personally, of little use to the thread....this also applies to various, copious other threads to say the least!!!!


I ,for one would love to be able to share thoughts, anecdotes and data within the forum as is, without having to plough through repeats of 'Indeed..' blah blah blah!!!!!  that have little to do with actual contributions to the thread in question! I only felt obliged to bring this issue up as I am on the verge of descending into the mode of say, Inspector Dreyfus (Herbert Lom) when confronted by a Clousseau (Peter Sellers)! I maintain a certain level of respect and sensibility here, which is why I feel obliged to 'faff' around with this ludicrous stream of colloquial poppy cock in order to say and impress - what I feel has been a particularly 'trying' episode!

 Should anyone reading this post think that I am, perhaps pointing fingers at them.....then may I suggest 'you' who do, contemplate why you think I am. Then, perhaps I may have gone some way toward relieving this 'wonderful' forum of such nonsense.

'Is it not better to be a part of a forum, and think better... then to speak, rather then to be compelled by the urge of vanity to speak at all?'

That's my quote and it is protected!!!! Rhetorically it is lovely but hmm!

Goodness how vain!

Ta for now!


 
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 04, 2009, 11:11:37 AM
Maybe we should go back to Cecile.

The use of Von did exist before the wars but only for minor aristocracy like Von Bismark...After the war, the Royals that use to be Prince or Princess of a country cannot use the title anymore, so they put the von to be use as a surname. Like Von Prussia...even though their lcorrect last name was Hohenzollern.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 04, 2009, 11:50:22 AM


Von means of, Eric ... it has been used for centuries ......  Just like zu ..

even before the first world war,  a princess of Prussia would write    Viktoria Luise Prinzessin von Preussen.   Ernst Ludwig Grossherzog von Hessen und Bei Rhein.  König Alfonso von Spanien.   Königin Victoria von England,  usw

After 1918 when the Weimar republic abolished titltes,  those titles became one surname  so Prinzessin von Preussen or Prinz von Preussen or Herzogin zu Mecklenburg

Maybe we should go back to Cecile.

The use of Von did exist before the wars but only for minor aristocracy like Von Bismark...After the war, the Royals that use to be Prince or Princess of a country cannot use the title anymore, so they put the von to be use as a surname. Like Von Prussia...even though their lcorrect last name was Hohenzollern.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 04, 2009, 12:46:36 PM
Marlene thank you very much for explaining the in and outs of the 'von'. You did a super job!

Did Cecilie visit the UK after 1945? I was curious about whether she attended the wedding at Little Hadham and how she felt about Friedrich's anglicization!!!

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 04, 2009, 01:11:45 PM
Thanks.  Cecilie did not attend the wedding - the only guests at the wedding were Lord and Lady Iveagh, and friend of the bride, and a farmer with whom Friedrich had been staying.  She may have attended one of the christenings --but I would have to check when I got home. 
Marlene thank you very much for explaining the in and outs of the 'von'. You did a super job!

Did Cecilie visit the UK after 1945? I was curious about whether she attended the wedding at Little Hadham and how she felt about Friedrich's anglicization!!!


Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 04, 2009, 01:34:29 PM
Thanks. It shed more light on Cecile's relationship with each of her offsrings.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 04, 2009, 01:47:51 PM

It actuallly sheds no real light on the situation.  Brigid's sister did not attend the wedding either.  It was a very quiet wedding.  You have to realize that Friedrich came to England in the late 30s for a career -- he was briefly interned.  He acquired British nationality.  When he became a British national, he took the name George Mansfield.  After he was able to regain his German nationalty, he resumed his old name.  He would not have had any contact with his family during the second world war.
Thanks. It shed more light on Cecile's relationship with each of her offsrings.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 04, 2009, 01:50:19 PM
A very interesting story. Would love to know more about him.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 04, 2009, 01:52:44 PM

Perhaps you can put your words into action - and find out more about Prince Friedich ... Dig and scratch

A very interesting story. Would love to know more about him.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 04, 2009, 01:53:31 PM
Did you wrote about him before ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on March 04, 2009, 01:54:16 PM
I'm sure he would've been covered in her book.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 04, 2009, 01:58:41 PM

Yes it is amazing what one can find out for oneself if one has the initiative..... I found out all that stuff about the Douros and the Principality of Waterloo all by myself and the bits about the Mancrofts! Goodness I feel like I am vying to be teacher's pet....be quiet Alix!



A very interesting story. Would love to know more about him.

Perhaps you can put your words into action - and find out more about Prince Friedich ... Dig and scratch

A very interesting story. Would love to know more about him.


Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 04, 2009, 02:30:27 PM
Well...It shows every one can get ahead in research. Thanks ! I will follow up on that.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 04, 2009, 02:31:55 PM
Even trolling the The Times (which many libraries offer online) or using the old indexes and looking up articles = that's what I used to do before online


Yes it is amazing what one can find out for oneself if one has the initiative..... I found out all that stuff about the Douros and the Principality of Waterloo all by myself and the bits about the Mancrofts! Goodness I feel like I am vying to be teacher's pet....be quiet Alix!



A very interesting story. Would love to know more about him.

Perhaps you can put your words into action - and find out more about Prince Friedich ... Dig and scratch

A very interesting story. Would love to know more about him.



Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 04, 2009, 02:34:02 PM
Perhaps you should follow your own advice ... perhaps, you also might consider taking a breath before you post - and ask yourself  -- does this post actually contribute to the discussion or would it better to save my posts for times when I can actually offer something.


Well...It shows every one can get ahead in research. Thanks ! I will follow up on that.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 04, 2009, 09:27:52 PM
Cecilie was in England in May 1952, as on May 23, 1952, she was at the baptism of her granddaughter, Victoria. The Duchess of Kent was the godmother.

Marlene thank you very much for explaining the in and outs of the 'von'. You did a super job!

Did Cecilie visit the UK after 1945? I was curious about whether she attended the wedding at Little Hadham and how she felt about Friedrich's anglicization!!!


Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 04, 2009, 11:44:35 PM
From that generously provided nugget of data, may I take it that Frederick and Brigid were on relatively close terms with the Windsors? Prince Frederick seemed to have a most interesting life. It would be nice to think he was happy in Britain and was accepted by the British side of his family. I guess as in so many wars, the Hohenzollerns must have been quite torn!




Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 05, 2009, 09:45:54 AM
The Marina connection comes through Brigid's sister's Honor, who was married to Chips Channon, who was a friend of the Kents.  I am not sure how happy Friedrich's life was in the end .. he probably committed suicide. He and his wife were getting a divorce.  She was already living with Anthony Ness, whom she married after Friedrich's death. 
Lord and Lady Douro (Antonia von Preussen) are close friends with the Prince of Wales and have been for many years.


From that generously provided nugget of data, may I take it that Frederick and Brigid were on relatively close terms with the Windsors? Prince Frederick seemed to have a most interesting life. It would be nice to think he was happy in Britain and was accepted by the British side of his family. I guess as in so many wars, the Hohenzollerns must have been quite torn!





Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 05, 2009, 10:32:33 AM
Did Cecilie knew Marina ? I do not see a close relationship there. If I am not mistaken the photo of the baptism is the only time the two were ever photographed togather.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 05, 2009, 11:46:31 AM
One does not see a relationship in the photo.  Who said anything about a close relationship between Cecilie and Marina.  If you actually read my post,you would have noticed that I said that Friedrich and Brigid probably knew the Kents through Lady Honor and her husband, Chips Channon, Lady Honor being Brigid's sister.

As for Marina and Cecilie  -- well ... Cecilie had a son Louis Ferdinand who was married to Grand Duchess Kira of Russia who was the daughter of Grand Duke Kirill of Russia who had a sister Helen who was married to Nicholas of Greece who had a daughter, Marina.   Thus  Marina was the first cousin to Cecile's daughter-in-law.

Moreover,  Cecilie was Kirill and Helen's first cousin!    So it is entirely possible that she knew Marina in some context ...After all, she and Marina were first cousins once removed.
Did Cecilie knew Marina ? I do not see a close relationship there. If I am not mistaken the photo of the baptism is the only time the two were ever photographed togather.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on March 05, 2009, 01:36:30 PM
Yes, she was their cousin in 2 ways--

Cecile's father (Friedrich Franz) and Marina's grandmother (Maria Pavlovna) were siblings. Cecile's mother (Anastasia) was cousin to Marina's grandfather (Vladimir) on the Romanov side.

Nicholas I--Alexander II--Vladimir--Helen--Marina
Nicholas I--Michael--Anastasia--Cecile

I've seen the photo of Cecile at the baptism somewhere but I can't remember what book or whether it was online.  :-\  ???
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 05, 2009, 01:52:43 PM
 ;) ;)


It is in the recent book produced in Germany on Cecilie's life ... and I think I have it as a postcard. 

Yes, she was their cousin in 2 ways--

Cecile's father (Friedrich Franz) and Marina's grandmother (Maria Pavlovna) were siblings. Cecile's mother (Anastasia) was cousin to Marina's grandfather (Vladimir) on the Romanov side.

Nicholas I--Alexander II--Vladimir--Helen--Marina
Nicholas I--Michael--Anastasia--Cecile

I've seen the photo of Cecile at the baptism somewhere but I can't remember what book or whether it was online.  :-\  ???
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on March 05, 2009, 01:57:41 PM
I have that  bio--you're right, that's probably where I saw it.   Now I don't have to torture my poor, overtaxed brain. :)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 05, 2009, 02:00:29 PM
I had quite forgotten about the friendship of the Channons and the Kents! That would explain an extended circle of friends including Frederick and Brigid!

Thank you Marlene and Ella for the further data about kinship!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 05, 2009, 02:03:12 PM
 ;D

I know about over-taxed brains.  I was pulling stuff off the shelves, right and left to find answers for Rosamund and Alix



I have that  bio--you're right, that's probably where I saw it.   Now I don't have to torture my poor, overtaxed brain. :)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 05, 2009, 02:04:40 PM


I am nearly sure that the Friedrichs are mentioned in Channon's diaries

I had quite forgotten about the friendship of the Channons and the Kents! That would explain an extended circle of friends including Frederick and Brigid!

Thank you Marlene and Ella for the further data about kinship!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 05, 2009, 02:16:52 PM
And I am very grateful indeed! I will start rootling around for a copy of Channon's diaries as my are in storage.... remembering how chatty they are, I am sure there will be bits in them, like you say Marlene... once again thank you!



;D

I know about over-taxed brains.  I was pulling stuff off the shelves, right and left to find answers for Rosamund and Alix




Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 05, 2009, 03:11:20 PM
The diaries were reprinted. I saw them in Hatchards last April.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on March 09, 2009, 08:11:15 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hoenzolern/Ceciliewithabighat1.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 09, 2009, 01:26:05 PM
 (http://i44.tinypic.com/218ro6.jpg)


(http://i42.tinypic.com/8zr4ux.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 09, 2009, 03:43:50 PM
The second postcard was a drawing or a painting ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 10, 2009, 06:47:55 AM
Her clother (and her hat for what i see) are drawnings.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Vecchiolarry on March 10, 2009, 10:23:33 PM
Hi,

A very lovely young lady;  I can see her mother in her eyes especially....

Can someone post a picture of Anastasia M and her daughters, Alexandrine and Cecilie??
Thank you in advance.

Larry
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 11, 2009, 11:03:39 AM
There you go!


(http://i43.tinypic.com/2u5dxg0.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 11, 2009, 12:51:09 PM
Here another of the same session
 
(http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2869/00000ceciliacs1ns2.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Vecchiolarry on March 11, 2009, 05:00:05 PM
Hi,

Magnificent!!!

As I've mentioned before, I think GD Anastasia Michaelovna was one of the more fascinating members of her family and the kids seem to have married well despite her rather 'colourful' life....

Thank you all again...

Larry
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 11, 2009, 08:24:22 PM
Regarding the May 1952 trip to England that Cecilie made, what situation did she have to endure for her travel? It strikes me that after only a few years since the end of the war, her own disposition must have been bittersweet at best. Further, she surely would not have arrived with any amount of 'celebrity', or did she? Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 12, 2009, 11:53:32 AM
I would have thought her visit must have been very much a low key affair...
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 12, 2009, 04:03:37 PM
One presiumed that she flew to London.  She would have gone as a private citizen - and I doubt that there was much press attention.  There is a small article in the Court Circiular about the Duchess of Kent being one of the godparents - and the other godparents were Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, Prince Vsevolde of Russia, Dr. Maximilian von Rogister, Crown Princess Cecilie of Prussia, Princess Fellicitas of Prussia and the Marchioness of Normanby.

Regarding the May 1952 trip to England that Cecilie made, what situation did she have to endure for her travel? It strikes me that after only a few years since the end of the war, her own disposition must have been bittersweet at best. Further, she surely would not have arrived with any amount of 'celebrity', or did she? Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 12, 2009, 04:17:55 PM
Indeed. Cecilie was then one the "royals on the retired list" as Germany was split into two republics (one being communist), she was a private citizen to a family function only.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Nate1865 on March 13, 2009, 01:33:21 PM
I would like to add to this thread that has great photos of Willie's grandkids.


Prince Wilhelm of Prussia as a child.

(http://i44.tinypic.com/28hms20.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 13, 2009, 01:34:52 PM
One presiumed that she flew to London.  She would have gone as a private citizen - and I doubt that there was much press attention.  There is a small article in the Court Circiular about the Duchess of Kent being one of the godparents - and the other godparents were Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, Prince Vsevolde of Russia, Dr. Maximilian von Rogister, Crown Princess Cecilie of Prussia, Princess Fellicitas of Prussia and the Marchioness of Normanby.

Regarding the May 1952 trip to England that Cecilie made, what situation did she have to endure for her travel? It strikes me that after only a few years since the end of the war, her own disposition must have been bittersweet at best. Further, she surely would not have arrived with any amount of 'celebrity', or did she? Thanks in advance.

In Cecelie's memoirs, I got no impression about what must have been vast and deep emotions resulting from loss of power and possessions. Has there ever been, for example, any diary notations or other evidence of the way Cecelie would have approached this visit to the nation that, essentially, cost her so much? Did she suffer from humiliation? Anger? Horror? Embarrassment?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 13, 2009, 01:37:33 PM
Louis Ferdinand, Hubertus y Friederich

(http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1015/dreiprinzen.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Nate1865 on March 13, 2009, 01:57:21 PM
Nice photo Katenka. Poor Friederich though, wearing what looks like a dress outside, also, what animal are they with?

Willie with his eldest grandsons, Wilhelm and Louis Ferdinand in 1925

(http://i41.tinypic.com/3327cia.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Nate1865 on March 13, 2009, 02:09:51 PM
Wilhelm with his mother, Crown Princess Cecilie of Prussia in 1908.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/152hxev.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Nate1865 on March 13, 2009, 02:29:15 PM
I love that photo of Wilhelm and Alexandrine!

Here are the boys: Wilhelm, Louis Ferdinand, Hubertus, and Friedrich in uniform in 1914.

(http://i41.tinypic.com/258uu8i.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 13, 2009, 04:48:54 PM


One presiumed that she flew to London.  She would have gone as a private citizen - and I doubt that there was much press attention.  There is a small article in the Court Circiular about the Duchess of Kent being one of the godparents - and the other godparents were Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, Prince Vsevolde of Russia, Dr. Maximilian von Rogister, Crown Princess Cecilie of Prussia, Princess Fellicitas of Prussia and the Marchioness of Normanby.
1952 was a long way from 1918.  Over that period of time, Cecile lived largely apart from her husband.  She watched her children grow and move away.  She was a private citizen with a fancy surname.  She watched Germany start another war, even worse than the first ... and she had to flee to the west for safety.  I have no diaries to read, but I would think that by 1952, she had moved on, and was more delighted to see her family.  A lot of water had passed under the bridge by 1952
Regarding the May 1952 trip to England that Cecilie made, what situation did she have to endure for her travel? It strikes me that after only a few years since the end of the war, her own disposition must have been bittersweet at best. Further, she surely would not have arrived with any amount of 'celebrity', or did she? Thanks in advance.

In Cecelie's memoirs, I got no impression about what must have been vast and deep emotions resulting from loss of power and possessions. Has there ever been, for example, any diary notations or other evidence of the way Cecelie would have approached this visit to the nation that, essentially, cost her so much? Did she suffer from humiliation? Anger? Horror? Embarrassment?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 13, 2009, 04:55:42 PM
What good points! And IMHO all that filthy 'Irish' lucre must have been a tremendous sweetner  for Cecilie too! She could perhaps envisage lovely secure futures for grandchildren of the marriage, in a style befitting to their now rather hollow and redundant Royal status too! Being born and bred in Britain may have seemed rather ironic though!

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 13, 2009, 05:41:42 PM
Nice photo Katenka. Poor Friederich though, wearing what looks like a dress outside, also, what animal are they with?

Willie with his eldest grandsons, Wilhelm and Louis Ferdinand in 1925

(http://i41.tinypic.com/3327cia.jpg)

Very good looking young men. I saw LF during the reunification ceremonies in 1991. He never thought such a day would come; his being able to reenter the Berliner Dom was quite emotional for him.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 13, 2009, 05:52:02 PM
Here another from the same period, but this time with Mommy Cecilie

(http://i41.tinypic.com/jafjo8.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 14, 2009, 02:41:52 PM
Well...At least in Britian they still have a sovereign, in Republican Germany would have been stranger to this daughter to a Russian Grand Duchess.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: alixaannencova on March 15, 2009, 12:06:52 AM
It would be so nice if one could consistently read contributions that a) made some semblance of sense and b) were relevant to the nuances and overall integrity of the matter being discussed!!! Rather than have ill worded nonsense appear, that does not seem to have any value, even as a 'pure' personal observation.....it wouldn't be so bad if in this instance the previous poster had taken the time to contribute a post that made any sense!!!! IMHO I sense (scent) that the previous post was sent without suitable consideration of the value of the content let alone the construction of its wording!!!!!

Back to the point in case, it seems such a quirk that Lord Beaverbrook and the Kaiser may in the fulness of time share parentage of  great great great grand children!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 15, 2009, 11:24:10 AM
Cecilie had not lived in a monarchy since end of 1918.  By 1952, she had seen her country once again go through war and be divided afterward  and Mecklenburg in the east.  She also would have witnesses the beginning of the growth of the West Germany economy, and the stability of that country.  Moreover, her mother's country had disappeared, and had been replaced by a truly repelling and revulsive place.

It would be so nice if one could consistently read contributions that a) made some semblance of sense and b) were relevant to the nuances and overall integrity of the matter being discussed!!! Rather than have ill worded nonsense appear, that does not seem to have any value, even as a 'pure' personal observation.....it wouldn't be so bad if in this instance the previous poster had taken the time to contribute a post that made any sense!!!! IMHO I sense (scent) that the previous post was sent without suitable consideration of the value of the content let alone the construction of its wording!!!!!

Back to the point in case, it seems such a quirk that Lord Beaverbrook and the Kaiser may in the fulness of time share parentage of  great great great grand children!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 15, 2009, 06:20:01 PM
The case is that the only monarchy state she could live is her sister Queen Alexandrine's in Denmark. I wonder knowing the closeness of the sisters, did she not made it her permanent home ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on March 15, 2009, 09:24:27 PM
Would Cecile have been welcome in Denmark, I assume that Alexandrine wouldn't mind having Cecile n Denmark but how would the general population feel about the ex-Crown Princess of Germany living in Denmark. 

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 15, 2009, 11:22:55 PM
Although Cecilie had no real ties to the Nazi party, several of her sons did.  The two families did maintain some contact.  Adini kept in touch with Christian Ludwig of Mecklenburg, for example, because he was not a Nazi.  But his older brother did have ties - and the Danes broke off contact with Franz Friedrich.  Two of Cecilie's sons were Nazis.  The sisters may have maintained a private contact, but Cecilie would not have been welcome in Denmark.  She did not need to have a home in Denmark.  She had a home in Germany. I do not know, off-hand, if any of Cecilie's family went to Alexandrine's funeral but Knud and Caroline Mathilde did attend Cecilie's funeral/
Would Cecile have been welcome in Denmark, I assume that Alexandrine wouldn't mind having Cecile n Denmark but how would the general population feel about the ex-Crown Princess of Germany living in Denmark. 

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 16, 2009, 10:09:12 AM
I know that Cecilie did not need to live in Denmark, but one said if she found living in Germany strange without a monarch. The closest she could find would be Adini, her sister's court in Denmark. I think it also helps that Caroline Mathilde's mother was German too even though she married a Danish prince, her attendence of Cecilie's furneral would have been fitting.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 16, 2009, 11:12:56 AM
I have not been able to uncover the actual long term plans for Cecelienhof at Potsdam. WII built it for Cecelie and CP William which implies WII thought he was going to live quite a bit longer (he did think highly of himself). Was the home intended to be Cecelie's forever, even after she would have assumed residence in the Neues Palais and the other homes her husband would have inherited? Or, was Cecelienhof intended to be passed on as a smaller residence to the new CP, once WII passed?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 16, 2009, 11:18:13 AM
I don't think that was to be her residence for the long term. It would probably be passed to one of her sons when she became Empress.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 16, 2009, 12:05:18 PM
Dear HK,  I think the intention was to have something similar to Marlborough House, where the Prince and Princess of Wales lived for many years.  Once Wilhelm and Cecilie succeeded to the throne, they would have moved to the Neues Palais, and one can only presume that Cecilienhof would have become the home of the new Crown Prince and his family.  Instead of course, Cecilie remained at the palace until 1945, and then had to flee to the West .. I visited Cecilienhof before 1989 and oh, the Communist propaganda one got when visiting there ... I set them straight   ;D
I must say however, the tour guide we had for the day was very kind .. she did allow my friend and I to slip off to the Peace Church when we were at San Souci for the 25 minute break ... and she was very kind to tell my friend and I that we were in the room where Friedrich III died ... so there was some interest  ... and I tipped her well.   I hope she used the money to buy deodorant. 

I have not been able to uncover the actual long term plans for Cecelienhof at Potsdam. WII built it for Cecelie and CP William which implies WII thought he was going to live quite a bit longer (he did think highly of himself). Was the home intended to be Cecelie's forever, even after she would have assumed residence in the Neues Palais and the other homes her husband would have inherited? Or, was Cecelienhof intended to be passed on as a smaller residence to the new CP, once WII passed?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 16, 2009, 12:09:31 PM
Oh she smells bad ???

Also I think there is a Crown Prince Palace in Berlin, do you think Cecilienhof would be passed to Wilhelm, who was to be the next crown prince or to a younger son ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 16, 2009, 01:38:00 PM
Dear HK,  I think the intention was to have something similar to Marlborough House, where the Prince and Princess of Wales lived for many years.  Once Wilhelm and Cecilie succeeded to the throne, they would have moved to the Neues Palais, and one can only presume that Cecilienhof would have become the home of the new Crown Prince and his family.  Instead of course, Cecilie remained at the palace until 1945, and then had to flee to the West .. I visited Cecilienhof before 1989 and oh, the Communist propaganda one got when visiting there ... I set them straight   ;D
I must say however, the tour guide we had for the day was very kind .. she did allow my friend and I to slip off to the Peace Church when we were at San Souci for the 25 minute break ... and she was very kind to tell my friend and I that we were in the room where Friedrich III died ... so there was some interest  ... and I tipped her well.   I hope she used the money to buy deodorant. 

I have not been able to uncover the actual long term plans for Cecelienhof at Potsdam. WII built it for Cecelie and CP William which implies WII thought he was going to live quite a bit longer (he did think highly of himself). Was the home intended to be Cecelie's forever, even after she would have assumed residence in the Neues Palais and the other homes her husband would have inherited? Or, was Cecelienhof intended to be passed on as a smaller residence to the new CP, once WII passed?

 :)  :) :) Marlene, you do have a perfect sense of humor for my tastes! I think your host did not use the money for deordorant, as the the same fragrances graced Potsdam during my visits.

I was actually in Berlin and the east in 1987, forcibly fed similar communist propaganda you heard. I was not so aggressive about giving them the historical truths about several things they had wrong; my getting through FrederichStrasse checkpoint was a nightmare and I was in no mood to buck the system. Very scary.

I too saw Fritzes dead room, but it was in the Neues Palais, not Sans Souci. Here is a photo of the exterior windows of the room in which Fritz passed. The room itself has a wonderful inlaid FIII in the floor at the foot of his bed.

(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/eurochief/Fritzroom.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on March 16, 2009, 01:41:54 PM
Quote
Also I think there is a Crown Prince Palace in Berlin, do you think Cecilienhof would be passed to Wilhelm, who was to be the next crown prince or to a younger son ?


That is what I also thought, that Cecilienhof is more akin to a summer residence, like Sandringham and the Kronprinzenpalais was their main residence?  Anyway, this is not related but what was Wilhelm and Dona's main residence? Berliner Stadtschloss or Das Neue Palais?

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 16, 2009, 03:07:50 PM
Ahh, you are right -- the Neues Palais was in the afternoon.  The tour was made up of Germans and one Brit and one American traveling together  The tour started in West Berlin, and went into East Berlin (loved the Mirrors placed under the bus) to pick up our tour guide who was in need of anti-perspirant.  As we drove to Potsdam, she pointed out a hideous apartment complex, where she told us  20,000 people live in socialist harmony.  I looked at my friend and said I do not want live in socialist harmony if I had to live there.   When she let my friend and I run off to the Friedenkirche, we were thrilled ..The church was open and we saw wihere Vicky and Fritz were ... and a nice lady was in the church.  I gave her three American dollars (all I had) and she said it was too much (this was all in German) and I said,no,  I said that I was evangelisch and this was for my church ...At Sanssouci, as I stood in line to use the ladies (and the loo paper was  .... old copies of Neues Deutschland  .. and the putz frau was spraying the area - saying Spray the foreigners, spray the foreigners, and I responded that the foreigners didn't smell, that she had gotten it wrong.
Another day when we crossed over via Checkpoint Charlie, we really were not searched, and we had forgotten we had a Daily Telegraph with us -- trying to find a garbage can to get rid of it ... and I expected   some Stasi dude to jump out of the can and arrest us.  I got the third degree from a pimply face kid at Checkpoint Charlie leaving the DDR ... having a German name and an American passport .....and one night walking along the wall in the West and soldiers in the towers on the other side telling us to move away from the wall ... I kept point my very long lens at them and they kept ducking  -- it was so much fun ... I shouted up to them  "Ich habe Freiheit - Sie hat nicht."   I was such a naughty girl ... but not as bad as my friend, who relieved himself on the wall .. just to make a point ...

I digress, sorry
Dear HK,  I think the intention was to have something similar to Marlborough House, where the Prince and Princess of Wales lived for many years.  Once Wilhelm and Cecilie succeeded to the throne, they would have moved to the Neues Palais, and one can only presume that Cecilienhof would have become the home of the new Crown Prince and his family.  Instead of course, Cecilie remained at the palace until 1945, and then had to flee to the West .. I visited Cecilienhof before 1989 and oh, the Communist propaganda one got when visiting there ... I set them straight   ;D
I must say however, the tour guide we had for the day was very kind .. she did allow my friend and I to slip off to the Peace Church when we were at San Souci for the 25 minute break ... and she was very kind to tell my friend and I that we were in the room where Friedrich III died ... so there was some interest  ... and I tipped her well.   I hope she used the money to buy deodorant. 

I have not been able to uncover the actual long term plans for Cecelienhof at Potsdam. WII built it for Cecelie and CP William which implies WII thought he was going to live quite a bit longer (he did think highly of himself). Was the home intended to be Cecelie's forever, even after she would have assumed residence in the Neues Palais and the other homes her husband would have inherited? Or, was Cecelienhof intended to be passed on as a smaller residence to the new CP, once WII passed?

 :)  :) :) Marlene, you do have a perfect sense of humor for my tastes! I think your host did not use the money for deordorant, as the the same fragrances graced Potsdam during my visits.

I was actually in Berlin and the east in 1987, forcibly fed similar communist propaganda you heard. I was not so aggressive about giving them the historical truths about several things they had wrong; my getting through FrederichStrasse checkpoint was a nightmare and I was in no mood to buck the system. Very scary.

I too saw Fritzes dead room, but it was in the Neues Palais, not Sans Souci. Here is a photo of the exterior windows of the room in which Fritz passed. The room itself has a wonderful inlaid FIII in the floor at the foot of his bed.

(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a111/eurochief/Fritzroom.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on March 16, 2009, 03:16:36 PM
Remember, Cecilienhof was built during the first world war.  The situtation was very different.  Whatever plans were made for the future of the palace changed by 1918, only a year after Cecilienhof was completed.  The Crown Prince and Princess lived at the Kronprinzenpalais for the first years of their marriage - they never got to live there after 1918.    So we really do not know what the plans were for Ceciilienhof because after the war, the little palace became Cecilie's home. 

Quote
Also I think there is a Crown Prince Palace in Berlin, do you think Cecilienhof would be passed to Wilhelm, who was to be the next crown prince or to a younger son ?


That is what I also thought, that Cecilienhof is more akin to a summer residence, like Sandringham and the Kronprinzenpalais was their main residence?  Anyway, this is not related but what was Wilhelm and Dona's main residence? Berliner Stadtschloss or Das Neue Palais?

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 16, 2009, 05:30:02 PM
Quote
Also I think there is a Crown Prince Palace in Berlin, do you think Cecilienhof would be passed to Wilhelm, who was to be the next crown prince or to a younger son ?


That is what I also thought, that Cecilienhof is more akin to a summer residence, like Sandringham and the Kronprinzenpalais was their main residence?  Anyway, this is not related but what was Wilhelm and Dona's main residence? Berliner Stadtschloss or Das Neue Palais?

-Duke of NJ

Most of their time was at Neues Palais. William did much of the interior design remodeling himself including the semi precious stone grotto that re-made the entire grand entrance hall. For sure the Stadt Schloss in Berlin was ceremonially the "main" residence much like Buckingham palace is to the Windsors, but the Hohenzollerns had places all over such as Potsdam, Charlottenburg, Heiligendamn, Achilleion, burg hohenzollern, for example, that they circuited about.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 17, 2009, 01:43:07 PM
Indeed I saw the death room in the Neus Palais. My favourite in that palace is the large coronation portrait of Wilhelm I with Vicky featured in the corner. I have not seen the portrait reproduced.

I agree it would be passed to Louis Ferdinand or his younger brother as a Summer home
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 07, 2009, 05:19:28 PM
Ok..this is one of the funniest (and cuttest) things i ve ever seen....

Wilhelm, Cecilie and Wilhelm`s first son

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2v97iwl.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 26, 2009, 10:07:42 AM
Felicitas Christening

With her grandparents Cecilie and  Wilhelm

(http://i44.tinypic.com/mmxut1.jpg)

A Group photo

(http://i44.tinypic.com/1hothu.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: violetta on May 28, 2009, 05:06:22 PM
some photoes from cecilehof.lst summer,august.ythe back of the mansion

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/DSCN0659.jpg)


(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/DSCN0650.jpg)

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/DSCN0646.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 28, 2009, 06:13:56 PM
Very nice photos; hope you enjoyed your trip and walking in the footsteps of the hohenzollern. The photos underscore the very German architecture. many reviews of the building report how "english" the design, but in fact, the straight half timber frame structures were a  quite a style of German builders. The enlish half timbers used curved wood treatments.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: violetta on May 29, 2009, 05:29:59 AM
Very nice photos; hope you enjoyed your trip and walking in the footsteps of the hohenzollern. The photos underscore the very German architecture. many reviews of the building report how "english" the design, but in fact, the straight half timber frame structures were a  quite a style of German builders. The enlish half timbers used curved wood treatments.


"the very German" architecture? it has been repeatedly stressed that the ceciiehof was styled after the english country house. and the garden is gorgeus! that`s why i decided to post a picture of the garden rather than of the house itself. anyway, the garden and the house look very harmonious
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on June 05, 2009, 10:26:25 AM
(http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww139/Romanov_06/histoire/100833521.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 05, 2009, 12:01:04 PM
Cecilie and Wilhem, proud grandparents with their grandaughter Felicitas

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2ut2quq.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 05, 2009, 12:05:49 PM
Cecilie and Wilhelm in the wedding of  their youngest child, Cecilie with Clyde Harris. 1949

(http://i44.tinypic.com/6gfybo.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on June 05, 2009, 11:27:02 PM
.

click on images for larger version

.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/My%20Photos/th_cecilie1908bycasparritter.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/My%20Photos/cecilie1908bycasparritter.jpg)

Cecilie, 1908 by Caspar Ritter

.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/My%20Photos/th_wilhelm1932byzickendraht.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/My%20Photos/wilhelm1932byzickendraht.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/My%20Photos/th_cecilie1934byzickendraht.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/My%20Photos/cecilie1934byzickendraht.jpg)

Wilhelm, 1932 & Cecilie, 1934  both by B. Zickendraht


.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 06, 2009, 11:33:26 AM
Thanks so much for join these two topic in one!!!

Kronprinzenpaar

(http://i42.tinypic.com/20b0f9x.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on June 07, 2009, 02:08:57 AM
(http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww139/Romanov_06/histoire/KP1.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 07, 2009, 09:41:23 AM
i ve seen that picture a couple of times in this same topic ;-)


This one is gorgeous. Cilly looks like a truly movie star!

(http://i43.tinypic.com/rrte8l.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on June 15, 2009, 10:46:25 AM
(http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww139/Romanov_06/histoire/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-2003-1014-505.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 15, 2009, 01:25:44 PM
Cecilie as a little girl

(http://i44.tinypic.com/121cwp5.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 15, 2009, 01:29:21 PM
A child Wilhelm

 (http://i39.tinypic.com/2hq72u9.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on June 15, 2009, 01:46:14 PM
(http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww139/Romanov_06/histoire/CP20FriedrichWilhelm2.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 15, 2009, 02:33:35 PM
 (http://i40.tinypic.com/jhvo9h.jpg)

Wilhem II with Wilhem on his lap , Viktoria Augusta, Cecilie with Louis Ferdinand in her arms and Kronprinz Wilhelm
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Alexandre64 on June 15, 2009, 03:41:31 PM
(http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww139/Romanov_06/histoire/2iw10g91.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 05, 2009, 11:19:25 AM
And...back to the topic


Cecilie, Wilhelm and a group of people in the place were they got engaged. 1927 (that s was how the picture was labeled)

(http://i31.tinypic.com/2qumyvk.jpg)

Ps: the guy in the right is Louis Ferdinand or im wrong?

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 05, 2009, 03:47:16 PM
the man on the right does not look like Louis Ferdinand to me; very tough to say as the photo is blurry. But he seems to look more like Prinz Wilhelm.

I also think Cecilie is on the far left, not the woman next to the crown prinz.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 05, 2009, 04:00:49 PM
Yes, Cecilie is the first from left to right
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Lucien on August 06, 2009, 05:43:22 AM
Princess Felicitas of Prussia passed away aged 75 last saturday.She was a great-granddaughter of Wilhelm II by Wilhelm,
a son of the Crown Prince,and his wife Dorothea von Salviati.

http://gpdhome.typepad.com/royalblognl_news_summary/2009/08/felicitas-von-preussen-passed-away.html


courtesy hja
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Lucien on August 06, 2009, 07:46:20 AM
Princess Felicitas of Prussia passed away aged 75 last saturday.She was a great-granddaughter of Wilhelm II by Wilhelm,
a son of the Crown Prince,and his wife Dorothea von Salviati.

http://gpdhome.typepad.com/royalblognl_news_summary/2009/08/felicitas-von-preussen-passed-away.html


courtesy hja

http://www.preussen.de/de/heute.html

R.I.P.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on August 06, 2009, 02:27:53 PM
Princess Felicitas of Prussia passed away aged 75 last saturday.She was a great-granddaughter of Wilhelm II by Wilhelm,
a son of the Crown Prince,and his wife Dorothea von Salviati.

http://gpdhome.typepad.com/royalblognl_news_summary/2009/08/felicitas-von-preussen-passed-away.html


courtesy hja

There's a photo of her at her christening being held by her grandparents, Wilhelm and Cecile, on the previous page for anyone who wants to check it out.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 06, 2009, 05:53:52 PM
How sad. RIP Felicitas

Here another picture of her in her christening day with her grandparents Cecilie and Wilhelm

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2ut2quq.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 06, 2009, 08:35:18 PM
Cecilie's memoirs were published prior to Felicitas' birth, so there is not record, that I have seen, of their relationship in memoir form. Did Felicitas maintain a close rapport with Cecilie after the dead of her father? A fatherless child is often the object of grandparents' great attention. Was this the case?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on August 10, 2009, 10:33:34 AM
Yes, Felicitas and Christa maintained good relations with their Prussian relatives

Cecilie's memoirs were published prior to Felicitas' birth, so there is not record, that I have seen, of their relationship in memoir form. Did Felicitas maintain a close rapport with Cecilie after the dead of her father? A fatherless child is often the object of grandparents' great attention. Was this the case?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 11, 2009, 04:22:19 PM
As a short form of Christina, the name Christa suggests that Wilhelm and his wife had adopted a much less formal, more casual lifestyle. Throughout the family, after WWI, the strict regimens broke down and divorices were common, etc. Naming a princess with almost a nickname really broke with tradition.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Lucien on October 12, 2009, 11:38:52 PM
The House of Hohenzollern mourns the death of IKH Magdalen,Princess Hubertus.

IKH Princess Magdalene,néé Reuss( Princess Hubertus),the last surviving daughter-in-law of Crown Prince Wilhelm and Cecilie,
passed away at Löwenstein Castle,Kleinheubach,Hessen last saturday aged 89.

The Princess will be interred next to her husband at the Michaels Bastion of the Hohenzollern Castle

http://www.preussen.de/de/heute/aktuell/trauer_um_ikh_magdalene_prinzessin_hubertus_von_preussen.html
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on November 07, 2009, 03:33:55 AM
Cecilie with her sister Alexandrine, Queen of Denmark. Does anyone have any other pictures of them together? At the time it must have seemed as if Cecilie had the more splendid future to look forward to.

(http://inlinethumb19.webshots.com/45330/2648117160100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 07, 2009, 09:14:48 AM
there are plenty of them together such as...

(http://i33.tinypic.com/28luyzb.jpg)

(http://i34.tinypic.com/bed53.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 07, 2009, 09:47:06 AM
Alexandrine's beauty faded fast. She looked almost plain compared to her sister.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on November 07, 2009, 02:14:24 PM
Alexandrine seems to vary from one photograph to another, but she was a good-looking woman in my view.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 08, 2009, 08:05:03 PM
I think she was pretty in her youth, but faded rather quickly. It could have been living with Christian X was no bed of roses ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on November 09, 2009, 07:15:23 AM
Was he a difficult man?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on November 09, 2009, 08:45:18 AM
He could be gruff and had a temper but wasn't basically unkind. He always reminded me in personality of his cousin George V.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 09, 2009, 08:46:49 AM
We better look for answers here

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=1711.0

 ;-)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Adagietto on November 10, 2009, 12:47:12 PM
Thanks, that's a good thread
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on November 15, 2009, 10:00:11 AM
Alexandrine's beauty faded fast. She looked almost plain compared to her sister.

Be careful not to judge too hastily. Still young, Cecilie gave way to grow very large while her sister Alexandrine, though plump, done more attention to her appearance. Cecilie was probably more beautiful than her older sister in her youth but we can not say that she remained in her maturity.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 16, 2009, 12:59:14 PM
I think Cecilie has more beautiful features than Alexandrine. She looked pretty in her youth, but grew plain quite early. Her son Nico (King Fredrick IX) looked very much like her.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on November 16, 2009, 03:31:20 PM
Wasn't his nickname within the family 'Rico', not 'Nico'? I have to say, I never saw much resemblance between the broad, blunt features of Frederick IX and the daintier features of his mother but in the eye of the beholder.

Cecile and Alexandrine maintained strong ties throughout two World Wars and the Danish royals were often seen in Mecklenburg in the interwar period.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 16, 2009, 03:43:35 PM
Yes. You are right. It is Rico ! Yet I can see close resemblence between mother & son. His handsome youthful looks also aged quickly.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 05, 2009, 03:40:03 PM
Cecilie s wedding day: Here is the bride with her proud father

(http://i47.tinypic.com/67taie.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 12, 2009, 05:47:18 PM
Another picture of a proud daddy F. Wilhelm with his eldest daughter, Alexandrine. A bundle iof joy and one of the most beautiful pictures of "Father  & daughter" of royals i ve ever seen.

(http://i46.tinypic.com/2l9ttax.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: THERRY on December 13, 2009, 07:06:44 AM
Really a nice family scene, tender and affectionate
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Sara Araújo on December 13, 2009, 09:46:53 AM
Wilhelm:
(http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/6230/12854870.jpg)

With Hitler:

(http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/9986/93269738.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 13, 2009, 10:29:01 AM
Really a nice family scene, tender and affectionate

Yes! thats why i love it so much!

Here another one of Wilhelm but with his first born son, Wilhelm

(http://i50.tinypic.com/9tmihw.jpg)

And i ill add one more of Alexandrine. She was a very stylish and elegant young lady

(http://i48.tinypic.com/a1jz9k.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 13, 2009, 08:00:46 PM
She does not look happy in the photo. She looked shocked...
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on December 13, 2009, 08:05:44 PM
Alexandrine was mentally handicapped

Really a nice family scene, tender and affectionate

Yes! thats why i love it so much!

Here another one of Wilhelm but with his first born son, Wilhelm

http://i50.tinypic.com/9tmihw.jpg (http://i50.tinypic.com/9tmihw.jpg)

And i ill add one more of Alexandrine. She was a very stylish and elegant young lady

http://i48.tinypic.com/a1jz9k.jpg (http://i48.tinypic.com/a1jz9k.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 13, 2009, 09:11:41 PM
Yes,  Marlene but anyways, she was  a very stylish young lady.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 13, 2009, 09:53:07 PM
Handicapped & Stylish ? The two does not seem to come hand in hand.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 14, 2009, 09:18:30 AM
Why not? i havent seen a picture of Alexandrine looking bad. She always had beautiful hairdos and gowns.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on December 14, 2009, 09:35:44 AM
I am sure someone picked out her dress for her -
It is undoubtful Alexandrine herself was conscious of style and fashion.


Yes,  Marlene but anyways, she was  a very stylish young lady.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 14, 2009, 09:54:33 AM
Dont Subestimate people with Down syndrom. I have a cousin with that and he s a very clever person (including picking his own clothes).

Anyway, if Alexandrine picked or not her clothes and hairdo, she always looked Stylish and great.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: violetta on December 14, 2009, 12:23:22 PM
i totally agree with katenka. we shouldn`t look down on people with the down syndrom. if alexandrine suffered from the down syndrom it doesn`t mean that she had to wear rugs. as every girl, she could wear beautiful and stylish dresses. maybe her mom chose them for her,may be alexandrine enjoyed wearing beautiful dresses. may be she enjoyed fashion in her own way, different from  so-called "normal' i.e. healthy women? it would have been unfair to deprive her of the simple joys of life.  she was different but she was human after all...so stylish and handicapped GO TOGETHER FOR ME.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 14, 2009, 05:08:10 PM
Katenka and Violetta are absolutely correct. I've been unable to unearth much detail about the life of Alexandrine, but suffice it to say her photos do not suggest a severe form of Downs nor does having Downs necessarily indicate a lack of understanding of what is going on around oneself. Based on Cecilie's writings and hints from various sources, Alexandrine both eager and aware of being part of the royal family...and looking the part.

What is most appealing about her malady is how her family reacted to it. Unlike queen Mary who was ashamed of prince John for epilepsy and hit him from view (I personally loathe Mary's behavior relative to her children, particularly John), Cecilie and the Hohenzollerns put Alexandrine front and center and embraced her as the equal she was. In this regard, the english royals cannot hold a candle to the truely royal and compassionate behavior of the german royal family.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 14, 2009, 07:13:07 PM
Thats really grand, Herrkaiser. Thats one of the reasons why i love Cecilie (and Wilhelm) so much- I love to see pictures of Alexandrine joining his brothers and sister, i love to see her integrated in the family and not hidden for her Down Syndrome. Here more pictures of her and her family

With Friedrich Geor, Cecilie, Wilhelm and Louis Ferdinand

(http://i45.tinypic.com/2wmi58l.jpg)

With mama Cecilie and sister Cilly

(http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/4303/351257112408020265c8.jpg)

(http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9978/3134442151a03f126b94o.jpg)

With papa, sister and mama

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/176/430371075_12dafe83b8_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: THERRY on December 15, 2009, 03:11:25 AM
Thank You Katenka for the photos
Katenka and Violetta are absolutely correct. I've been unable to unearth much detail about the life of Alexandrine, but suffice it to say her photos do not suggest a severe form of Downs nor does having Downs necessarily indicate a lack of understanding of what is going on around oneself. Based on Cecilie's writings and hints from various sources, Alexandrine both eager and aware of being part of the royal family...and looking the part.

What is most appealing about her malady is how her family reacted to it. Unlike queen Mary who was ashamed of prince John for epilepsy and hit him from view (I personally loathe Mary's behavior relative to her children, particularly John), Cecilie and the Hohenzollerns put Alexandrine front and center and embraced her as the equal she was. In this regard, the english royals cannot hold a candle to the truely royal and compassionate behavior of the german royal family.
i totally agree with katenka. we shouldn`t look down on people with the down syndrom. if alexandrine suffered from the down syndrom it doesn`t mean that she had to wear rugs. as every girl, she could wear beautiful and stylish dresses. maybe her mom chose them for her,may be alexandrine enjoyed wearing beautiful dresses. may be she enjoyed fashion in her own way, different from  so-called "normal' i.e. healthy women? it would have been unfair to deprive her of the simple joys of life.  she was different but she was human after all...so stylish and handicapped GO TOGETHER FOR ME.
I totaly agree with you
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on December 15, 2009, 10:16:28 AM
Katenka and Violetta are absolutely correct. I've been unable to unearth much detail about the life of Alexandrine, but suffice it to say her photos do not suggest a severe form of Downs nor does having Downs necessarily indicate a lack of understanding of what is going on around oneself. Based on Cecilie's writings and hints from various sources, Alexandrine both eager and aware of being part of the royal family...and looking the part.

What is most appealing about her malady is how her family reacted to it. Unlike queen Mary who was ashamed of prince John for epilepsy and hit him from view (I personally loathe Mary's behavior relative to her children, particularly John), Cecilie and the Hohenzollerns put Alexandrine front and center and embraced her as the equal she was. In this regard, the english royals cannot hold a candle to the truely royal and compassionate behavior of the german royal family.

I agree that the treatment of Alexandrine during Cecile's lifetime (I don't know much about her life after her mother's death) seems exemplary. However, I will disagree that John was hidden from view and treated shamefully. Until his epilepsy became too severe he was frequently seen in public--both in news photos (out at public events) and posed ones with his family and individually. I look at a lot of old German newspapers and magazines and Alexandrine wasn't usually seen out and about with the family--it was seemingly always in posed photos released to the public. Not to get off topic but I would suggest checking out the thread on Prince John.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 15, 2009, 12:45:41 PM
Much of my view of Mary's treatment of John comes from the pbs special "the lost prince" in which Mary is not at all a loving mother; rather one who would bannish her ill son from sight due to what was presented as shame. Usually, PBS is a valid and substantial source of information on such things, but i meander over to the John thread to see what's up over there.

Alexandrine's lack of frequent public appearances would be understandable since most public appearances of the royal families were in structured, official, and very programmed settings. Children with Downs are often unable to stand or sit calmly or without movement for very long, and rather than disrupt what may be an important ceremony, she would not have attended. I suppose one could say the same thing about an epileptic seizure, but again acccording to PBS, John was excluded and shunned well beyond the concern for a medical problem at an important function.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on December 15, 2009, 01:22:26 PM
No one is disparaging Alexandrine ... she lived most of her life in an institution, and she was certainlly in an institution by the 1940s.  She was not with Cecilie when Cecilie had to flee to the west.   Ceciile's memoirs were published in 1931, I think - and you do realize that she glossed over quite a lot.  Alexandrine was rarely seen after the mid-1930s.  Your perception of Queen Mary is incorrect and based on a series of misinformed articles that were published  at the time of the showing of the Lost Prince.  There are plenty of photos (and postcards) of John alone and with his family.  It was only after he became seriously ill -- the epilepsy in a virulent form - that he moved into Wood Farm but before that he was always present for family events.  I have quite a few pcs of John.

 
Katenka and Violetta are absolutely correct. I've been unable to unearth much detail about the life of Alexandrine, but suffice it to say her photos do not suggest a severe form of Downs nor does having Downs necessarily indicate a lack of understanding of what is going on around oneself. Based on Cecilie's writings and hints from various sources, Alexandrine both eager and aware of being part of the royal family...and looking the part.

What is most appealing about her malady is how her family reacted to it. Unlike queen Mary who was ashamed of prince John for epilepsy and hit him from view (I personally loathe Mary's behavior relative to her children, particularly John), Cecilie and the Hohenzollerns put Alexandrine front and center and embraced her as the equal she was. In this regard, the english royals cannot hold a candle to the truely royal and compassionate behavior of the german royal family.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on December 15, 2009, 02:24:43 PM
Much of my view of Mary's treatment of John comes from the pbs special "the lost prince" in which Mary is not at all a loving mother; rather one who would bannish her ill son from sight due to what was presented as shame. Usually, PBS is a valid and substantial source of information on such things, but i meander over to the John thread to see what's up over there.

Alexandrine's lack of frequent public appearances would be understandable since most public appearances of the royal families were in structured, official, and very programmed settings. Children with Downs are often unable to stand or sit calmly or without movement for very long, and rather than disrupt what may be an important ceremony, she would not have attended. I suppose one could say the same thing about an epileptic seizure, but again acccording to PBS, John was excluded and shunned well beyond the concern for a medical problem at an important function.


Then again I would reference the Prince John thread on the Windsors--it's currently being used so it's on the first page. It deals with much of the misinformation re: Prince John, including much of what comes from The Lost Prince which was, in many cases, highly inaccurate. Yes, QM was a distant mother--with all her children. It is just not factually accurate that John was shunted off and unwanted or unloved. And PBS has its flaws--I just watched a Romanov documentary that was riddled with them! Including identifying Prince Eddy (as a suitor of Alix's) by using a photo of his father! There was a really good article published fairly recently revisiting the John myth--I don't remember the author but I believe it was in Majesty magazine.

As regards Alexandrine, I wasn't referencing the more controlled public events such as a reception or one in a formal setting. I don't see photos of her at less structured events as I did with Prince John--ie a public visit with his parents and younger siblings to the London zoo or in the royal enclosure with his grandparents.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on December 15, 2009, 04:39:25 PM
The Lost Priince was produced by the BBC. It was riddled with mistakes  - like the scenes with the Russian imperial family.    It was not a PBS program ... it was a drama.  PBS stands for Public Broadcasting Service.  It was shown on Masterpiece Theatre, but it was a drama
Much of my view of Mary's treatment of John comes from the pbs special "the lost prince" in which Mary is not at all a loving mother; rather one who would bannish her ill son from sight due to what was presented as shame. Usually, PBS is a valid and substantial source of information on such things, but i meander over to the John thread to see what's up over there.

Alexandrine's lack of frequent public appearances would be understandable since most public appearances of the royal families were in structured, official, and very programmed settings. Children with Downs are often unable to stand or sit calmly or without movement for very long, and rather than disrupt what may be an important ceremony, she would not have attended. I suppose one could say the same thing about an epileptic seizure, but again acccording to PBS, John was excluded and shunned well beyond the concern for a medical problem at an important function.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on December 15, 2009, 04:40:46 PM
and remember, PBS buys most of its programming - and local PBS stations can also purchase programming. 
Much of my view of Mary's treatment of John comes from the pbs special "the lost prince" in which Mary is not at all a loving mother; rather one who would bannish her ill son from sight due to what was presented as shame. Usually, PBS is a valid and substantial source of information on such things, but i meander over to the John thread to see what's up over there.

Alexandrine's lack of frequent public appearances would be understandable since most public appearances of the royal families were in structured, official, and very programmed settings. Children with Downs are often unable to stand or sit calmly or without movement for very long, and rather than disrupt what may be an important ceremony, she would not have attended. I suppose one could say the same thing about an epileptic seizure, but again acccording to PBS, John was excluded and shunned well beyond the concern for a medical problem at an important function.


Then again I would reference the Prince John thread on the Windsors--it's currently being used so it's on the first page. It deals with much of the misinformation re: Prince John, including much of what comes from The Lost Prince which was, in many cases, highly inaccurate. Yes, QM was a distant mother--with all her children. It is just not factually accurate that John was shunted off and unwanted or unloved. And PBS has its flaws--I just watched a Romanov documentary that was riddled with them! Including identifying Prince Eddy (as a suitor of Alix's) by using a photo of his father! There was a really good article published fairly recently revisiting the John myth--I don't remember the author but I believe it was in Majesty magazine.

As regards Alexandrine, I wasn't referencing the more controlled public events such as a reception or one in a formal setting. I don't see photos of her at less structured events as I did with Prince John--ie a public visit with his parents and younger siblings to the London zoo or in the royal enclosure with his grandparents.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 15, 2009, 06:40:45 PM
I think that depends what one describe as seriously ill. In the program, John seemed ok but lonely. It showed Queen Mary did not know how to deal with her sick child. Queen Alexandra, (though not shown in the series) was more emotionally devoted to John than his mother. When John died, she told her daughter-in-law that "now that both our Johns (her son that died young too) can be togather." I found that very touching.

Indeed. There is not enough information to know more about the later years of Alexandrine. I am sure she would still be stylish and elegant in the insituition.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 16, 2009, 12:02:41 PM
The points about PBS' programming to be less that factual is a black mark against the network. Unfortunately, PBS' tolerance for spewing falsehoods does not seem to be limited to "dramas"; unfortunately most viewers have been led to believe that as a government and non commerical entity, the content is unskewed, unbiased, and fully factual. Ha, Ha. The errors in the shows you point out bleed into much of their programming, including so-called news casts where I have seen them use B roll footage from an event completely unrelated to a feature story, for example. Shame on PBS. But as a government PR arm, are we surprised?

Back to subject, on balance, I still see no solid evidence to suggest Mary maintained a level of motherly compassion anywhere close to the care given to Alexandrine. I suppose this subject is very much based on opinion.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 16, 2009, 12:20:19 PM
That would have to compare Cecilie's mothering to Mary's. Did Cecilie continue to visit Alexandrine in the instintution regularly after her daughter was admitted there ? From the sources, we do not see Mary visiting her sick son regularly after he was moved to Wood Farm.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Marlene on December 16, 2009, 04:04:59 PM
Herr Kaiser

Please get your facts straiight.  The Lost Prince was a drama directed by Stephen Poliakoff and made by BBC  (as in British Broadcasting corporation) ... The 2 part series was shown on Masterpiece Theatre, which showed so many superb British dramas, starting with the First Churchills.  
PBS is not owned or run by the government.    It is non-profit CORPORATION of more than 300 television stations.  It receives NO support from the government and depends ENTIRELY on donations and corporate sponsors.  Nor is PBS responsible for a good portion of its programming as local stations purchase many of their programs through pledge drives.  WGBH Boston produces Masterpiece Theatre and was a co-producer of many of masterpiece Theatre and Mystery! programs.  BBC alone could not afford to do these costume dramas ... and has largely abandoned such productions.  Every PBS station is responsible for its programming and a percentage of PBS stations take the PBS feed for programs like Masterpiece theatre ... but as the BBC really no longer makes these sort of programs --ditto for BBC America, which is owned by BBC Worldwide, but is not owned by the BBC --BBC America purchases program from BBC Worldwide and other sources.

From the legislation creating Corporation for Public Broadcasting in 1967:   There is authorized to be established a nonprofit corporation, to be known as the “Corporation for Public Broadcasting”, which will not be an agency or establishment of the United States Government.  
PBS used be known as National Educational Televiision ...     The same applies to National Public Radio -- entirely supported by listeners and corporate sponsors ... no government money at all.  
The points about PBS' programming to be less that factual is a black mark against the network. Unfortunately, PBS' tolerance for spewing falsehoods does not seem to be limited to "dramas"; unfortunately most viewers have been led to believe that as a government and non commerical entity, the content is unskewed, unbiased, and fully factual. Ha, Ha. The errors in the shows you point out bleed into much of their programming, including so-called news casts where I have seen them use B roll footage from an event completely unrelated to a feature story, for example. Shame on PBS. But as a government PR arm, are we surprised?

Back to subject, on balance, I still see no solid evidence to suggest Mary maintained a level of motherly compassion anywhere close to the care given to Alexandrine. I suppose this subject is very much based on opinion.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 16, 2009, 05:02:21 PM
I wonder if the story of Alexandrine been included in the latest biography on Crown Princess Cecilie.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on December 16, 2009, 06:45:24 PM


Herr Kaiser

Please get your facts straiight.  The Lost Prince was a drama directed by Stephen Poliakoff and made by BBC  (as in British Broadcasting corporation) ... The 2 part series was shown on Masterpiece Theatre, which showed so many superb British dramas, starting with the First Churchills. 
PBS is not owned or run by the government.    It is non-profit CORPORATION of more than 300 television stations.  It receives NO support from the government and depends ENTIRELY on donations and corporate sponsors.  Nor is PBS responsible for a good portion of its programming as local stations purchase many of their programs through pledge drives.  WGBH Boston produces Masterpiece Theatre and was a co-producer of many of masterpiece Theatre and Mystery! programs.  BBC alone could not afford to do these costume dramas ... and has largely abandoned such productions.  Every PBS station is responsible for its programming and a percentage of PBS stations take the PBS feed for programs like Masterpiece theatre ... but as the BBC really no longer makes these sort of programs --ditto for BBC America, which is owned by BBC Worldwide, but is not owned by the BBC --BBC America purchases program from BBC Worldwide and other sources.

From the legislation creating Corporation for Public Broadcasting in 1967:   There is authorized to be established a nonprofit corporation, to be known as the “Corporation for Public Broadcasting”, which will not be an agency or establishment of the United States Government.   
PBS used be known as National Educational Televiision ...     The same applies to National Public Radio -- entirely supported by listeners and corporate sponsors ... no government money at all.   
The points about PBS' programming to be less that factual is a black mark against the network. Unfortunately, PBS' tolerance for spewing falsehoods does not seem to be limited to "dramas"; unfortunately most viewers have been led to believe that as a government and non commerical entity, the content is unskewed, unbiased, and fully factual. Ha, Ha. The errors in the shows you point out bleed into much of their programming, including so-called news casts where I have seen them use B roll footage from an event completely unrelated to a feature story, for example. Shame on PBS. But as a government PR arm, are we surprised?

Back to subject, on balance, I still see no solid evidence to suggest Mary maintained a level of motherly compassion anywhere close to the care given to Alexandrine. I suppose this subject is very much based on opinion.
Marlene, in your classically offensive reaction to posts you do read correctly, you have once again missed the point.

PBS does receive about 15-20% of its funding from the feds and a almost a third from state and local taxes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Broadcasting_Service

I am quite aware that such a situation provides an avenue for governments’ hands to be randomly involved in corporate decisions, including programming. The term “public” has evolved into “governmental” among many, if not most, public domains, and it is naïve to think otherwise, whether one supports or opposes such governmental intrusion.

I agree that most people likely believe that PBS is completely independent and free from pressures typically applied in the commercial arena. But, it is not the case.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 16, 2009, 09:20:02 PM
I think we are seriously off the subject here.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 17, 2009, 09:28:27 AM
and getting back on topic., Wilhelm and three of his 4 sons, Hubertus, Wilhelm and Friedrich Georg. I have no info why Louis ferdinand isnt there.

(http://i45.tinypic.com/15xtuh4.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 17, 2009, 10:34:35 AM
What happened to his two other sons ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 17, 2009, 11:16:34 AM
there are not two other sons, just one is missing in the picture, Louis Ferdinand.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 17, 2009, 12:34:42 PM
I mean Hubertus & Friedrich Georg...Their lives after the war.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 17, 2009, 01:09:41 PM
oh i see. I recomend you to be a bit more explicit in your questions, i thought you were talking about the picture. About Friedrich Georg, he got married an died  drowned at the Rhine in the 60s. About Hubertus, he married twice, had two daughter and died of appendicitis in the 50s.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 17, 2009, 01:21:40 PM
Thanks for the info...I think Louis Ferdinand's famly is the largest in his generation.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on December 17, 2009, 03:32:39 PM
That would have to compare Cecilie's mothering to Mary's. Did Cecilie continue to visit Alexandrine in the instintution regularly after her daughter was admitted there ? From the sources, we do not see Mary visiting her sick son regularly after he was moved to Wood Farm.

Well most of her time was spent with various duties during the WW1 period--John went to Wood Farm during the war years and died in 1919. She didn't see much of any of her younger children it seems. At Wood Farm, John had companions, including one his own age, Winifred Thomas, who her spent almost every day with (and who isn't even mentioned, let alone shown, in The Lost Prince) and frequent outings. Winifred, living at Sandringham (where her relative was riding master) for her asthma, was sought out by QM specifically to be a friend and companion to John. John also received visits from younger relatives such as the future King Olav--obviously sometime after the end of WW1. As for 'evidence', the evidence that exists (namely diary entries, letters and photographic evidence) suggests that QM was much better with dealing with an ill child than many of her position and time period and moreso than her reputation. Winifred, in fact, recalled that QM was a loving and interested parent who spent a lot of time with her son. QM was genuinely moved by the devotion of his attendants and friends and made sure they all had tokens to remember him by. Thomas Haverly's daughter was given John's blackboard, which in time passed on through her own family, and Winifred was given a number of his books with Queen Mary's own hand-written inscription, "In memory of our dear little Prince." The Queen also treasured photographs of him, her own diary notes of their time together, and letters. Her reaction to his death: ""Lalla Bill telephoned from Wood Farm, Wolferton, that our poor darling Johnnie had died suddenly after one of his attacks. The news gave me a great shock, though for the little boy's restless soul, death came as a great release. I brought the news to George & we motored down to Wood Farm. Found poor Lalla very resigned but heartbroken. Little Johnnie looked very peaceful lying there ... For him it is a great release as his malady was becoming worse as he grew older and he has thus been spared much suffering. I cannot say how grateful we feel to God for having taken him in such a peaceful way, he just slept quietly... no pain, no struggle, just peace for the poor little troubled spirit, which had been a great anxiety for us for many years ever since he was four.""

That's not to say she matched Cecile, or deserved Mother of the Year, but Cecile actually seems ahead of her time. Cecile and Mary also had entirely different temperaments and were of different generations, Mary having her last child before Cecile even married. It's rather apples and oranges. One could also compare the mothering styles (towards sick children) of Empress Alexandra and also of Queen Victoria Eugenie of Spain. I have read conflicting accounts of this but if you want a sick child 'shunted off', I would investigate some of Ena's children--and she was more of a contemporary of Cecile's. One thing Cecile did very well, IMO, was tying her to Cecile Jr--I believe they had their confirmation at the same time (and I believe that's what the photo below is from) and making them real companions. They weren't set apart from each other as the 'normal' one and the handicapped one. (Rose Kennedy followed a similar pattern with Rosemary and Eunice.) As the only other girl in the family, it gave her someone she could bond with--though her brothers certainly seem affectionate towards her, at least in photos. I would be interested in what Marlene thinks as she's studied the family closely and knows many of the descendants. I wonder if the family continued the devotion showed by Cecile or got absorbed in their own lives and families.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-2003-1014-505%2C_Potsdam%2C_Kronprinzessin_Cecilie_mit_ihren_T%C3%B6chtern.jpg/439px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-2003-1014-505%2C_Potsdam%2C_Kronprinzessin_Cecilie_mit_ihren_T%C3%B6chtern.jpg)

Alexandrine lived longer than any of her siblings, save for Louis Ferdinand, only dying in 1980.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 17, 2009, 04:10:43 PM
Yes. It would be nice to know if the siblings kept up the visits even though they have families now. No points in this for Queen Mother & her family hiding the two girls from public view and denied their existance (they were registered as dead). Eunice Kennedy remained close to Rosemary even after she had a family and started the special Olympics. She was the cool sister to be had by any one who is deemed backward...

Thanks for the extra information on QM, guess she did the best in her position. The problem was that the times and ways of doing things changed after WWI. This plus Vicky's verdict that "May does not seem to like babies" put her in a bad light. The final assult came from her son David who described his mother as one of those "Ice-veined Bitches" and emotional unavailable. The movie sort of enhanse this image of the uncaring mother (one scene she even want to take away his record player who was John's few joys).
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 21, 2009, 02:28:04 PM
Toddler Crownprince Wilhelm

(http://i48.tinypic.com/68zl9j.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 08, 2010, 11:56:03 AM
Cecilie in riding habits

(http://i48.tinypic.com/105s679.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on February 02, 2010, 11:36:41 AM
A very cute image of Prinz Hubertus

(http://i46.tinypic.com/2myvk7n.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: KarlandZita on April 24, 2010, 07:55:01 AM
Crown Prince and Crown Princess at a horse show in 1911 :

(http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/758659concours1911.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=758659concours1911.jpg)

The Crown Prince's couple in 1914 :

(http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/69592kronprinzenpaar1914.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=69592kronprinzenpaar1914.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on April 24, 2010, 11:39:40 AM
Their four boys

(http://i41.tinypic.com/1jqetj.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 04, 2010, 02:57:28 PM
happy couple

(http://i43.tinypic.com/rw0wp4.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 04, 2010, 07:08:18 PM
They were happy indeed. After Lily Damita, Louis Ferdinand found a wife and one with royal blood as well as more stable qualities.  :)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 05, 2010, 07:31:33 AM
He dated Errol Flynn`s former wife?. Curious.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on May 05, 2010, 08:42:19 AM
Yes, before she was his wife. After her marriage to famed director Michael Curtiz though. It was during his stay in the US in 1929. Newspapers even announced an engagement. Whether his feelings were that engaged (and his family stepped in to end it)  I don't know. The New York Times carried it as 'announced by the young couple themselves'. It certainly garnered a lot of press in its day though.

The Time magazine article about his book wrote that:

"Meanwhile, at 19, he fell in love with Actress Lily Damita, and exercised so hard, trying to overcome a certain stringiness of physique, that he developed heart exhaustion and had to take a two-month holiday. Lulu followed Lily to the U.S., got a job as a Ford mechanic with the romantic idea of becoming self-supporting and marrying her. Grandfather said no, however, and took up the matter with Henry Ford, as one monarch to another. Suddenly Lulu found himself in a Ford plant in Argentina to "cool off." "

He also apparently dated actress Anita Page (according to an interview with her)

Also, Anita briefly dated Prince Louis Ferdinand, the second son of Germany’s former Crown Prince. While visiting Hollywood, the prince announced that he wanted to escort Anita to the Los Angeles premiere of the Broadway musical Show Boat. When the official request came, Louis B. Mayer, knowing how protective Anita’s parents were, told the prince’s representatives, "Please, we can get you anyone else. Anyone but Anita Page." Prince Ferdinand would not relent. "I do not want anyone else," he told him.

So Mayer relayed the Prince’s request to Mr. Pomares, whose concern was that the Prince had just ended a well-publicized affair with the French beauty Lili Damita. He was not about to have a scandal involving his daughter. However, after much persuasion and cajoling from Mayer, Mr. Pomares agreed — with one stipulation. "We will allow it," he told Mayer. "Provided the prince comes over to our house and we meet him." The prince agreed and met Anita’s parents before escorting her to that evening’s performance of Show Boat. But the night was not without its mishaps.

"I was wearing a Spanish shawl," Anita recalled, "when Stepin Fetchit happened to be walking in front of me and my fringe caught on one of his buttons. There stood the prince and all his entourage, waiting for me, and here I am entangled with Stepin Fetchit."

The following day Louella Parsons noted in her column how rarely Anita attended public functions. "Anita Page finally got out — but it took a Prince to do it," the gossip columnist wrote. Louella noted that in the audience she spied Mr. and Mrs. Pomares several rows behind her daughter and the prince. She noted that they were there to make sure their daughter arrived home, properly chaperoned. "Anita will never be queen now," Louella added.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 05, 2010, 09:04:01 AM
Thanks for the information on Anita. Lily Damita was mentioned in Louis Ferdinand's autobiography. He wrote he wanted to marry her and live in the United States, his family and curiously his boss Henry Ford stepped in and persuaded him to change his mind. I got a press photo of the couple togather.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 05, 2010, 09:17:16 AM
thank you, Gdss Ella!

What an weird couple, indeed cause i cant imagine Louis Ferdinand with Lily :-S

Louis

(http://i39.tinypic.com/vyocqw.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Olgasha on June 07, 2010, 04:19:45 AM
Duchess Cecilie with her elder sons, her brother and brother's family
(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/5145/scan0004ghdedfdd.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 07, 2010, 07:46:46 AM
Duchess? at that time still was a kronprinzessin ;-)

Cecilie in Greece with a brownie camera

(http://i43.tinypic.com/24fbipw.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 07, 2010, 08:33:00 AM
Was she on her honeymoon ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 07, 2010, 08:42:34 AM
i dont know but perhaps someone can tell us. 

Wilhelm

(http://i46.tinypic.com/zx36tx.jpg)

Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Olgasha on June 07, 2010, 08:46:47 AM
Nice sweater.;-)


I like this one - Cecilie with her eldest son Wilhelm
(http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6632/452608444055460091c6.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 07, 2010, 09:00:30 AM

(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/574/62964427sz7rk3.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Olgasha on June 07, 2010, 10:22:13 AM
Wilhelm
(http://static.akpool.de/images/cards/12/121526.jpg)

Willi with Louis Ferdinand
(http://static.akpool.de/images/cards/12/121576.jpg)

(http://static.akpool.de/images/cards/12/121556.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 07, 2010, 10:46:19 AM
Cecilie and Wilhelm in the wedding of their daughter Cecilie. Wilhelm died the next year

(http://i47.tinypic.com/nnwifd.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 07, 2010, 01:34:11 PM
thanks for all the posts. A few comments based on what I know in answer to some questions:

1) the photo of Cecilie with the camera is marked 1911 which looks about right based on her appearance. She definitly does not look as she did a a duchess of mecklenburg. So at this time, she was Kronprincessin.
2) Wilhelm was always looking sporting and "fay" as was a term back then. He relished in looking high fashion and worldly. Harmless, of course, but he often appeared almost theatrical in his choice of outfits.
3) The Hohenzollerns and other German families were heavily inter-married with russian nobility, particularly the Mecklenburgs. KP Cecilie's mother was russian, and her son LF married Kira of Russia, so naming an offspring Kyra was not so strange for the time. Marlene, who posts here somewhat regularly, is apparently a personal friend.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 07, 2010, 01:44:50 PM
Yes but before Kyra Kyrillovna married Louis Ferdinand,  it wasnt a common name in the hohenzollern such as Viktoria.

and about the picture i was talking about the picture posted by olgasha where she wrote "Duchess"

Thanks for the info!!!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 07, 2010, 03:23:57 PM
Yes. I was wondering if Kira or Kyra was aRussian name ?
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Olgasha on June 08, 2010, 08:17:25 AM


****
Crown Prince Wilhelm
(http://static.akpool.de/images/cards/16/166961.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 08, 2010, 10:59:30 AM
Hunting day!!!

(http://i044.radikal.ru/0904/e8/f88f496b80fa.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 08, 2010, 01:29:27 PM
Yes...I walked into one of those royal hunting boxes, the amount of deer head bones is really unnerving (especially animal lovers).
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Olgasha on June 16, 2010, 01:56:57 AM
Louis Ferdinand and Wilhelm
(http://static.akpool.de/images/cards/12/121543.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 16, 2010, 09:12:19 AM
Smiling Cilly


(http://i48.tinypic.com/ngzhxj.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 16, 2010, 02:04:44 PM
Louis Ferdinand and Wilhelm
(http://static.akpool.de/images/cards/12/121543.jpg)

Louis Ferdinand was a century ahead of fashion with his faux hawk hair cut!
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 17, 2010, 07:45:13 AM
haha! i just noticed that a lot of soccer player in the worldcup has that very same haircut! xDDD
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Olgasha on June 19, 2010, 11:09:23 AM


Cecilie
(http://static.akpool.de/images/cards/11/118892.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 20, 2010, 11:13:12 AM
Danke!!. Well, i rerally love Cecilie but that last picture isnt flattering at all.

(http://i44.tinypic.com/vpe1dx.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 21, 2010, 11:35:59 AM
Danke!!. Well, i rerally love Cecilie but that last picture isnt flattering at all.





Cecilie
(http://static.akpool.de/images/cards/11/118892.jpg)

The photo was probably taken about the year 1920-22. Yes, poor Cecilie lost her extreme good looks earlier than seems fair. But nature can be cruel. More than nature, though, the ravages of the war and her family’s loss of power and fortune took serious tolls on the family. Dona died, suicides, etc. Cecilie’s loss of beauty was, perhaps, the least devastating result of what they went through.

I believe the handwriting on the photo to be her own. She had a very fancy handwriting style, and it is hard to decipher, but I think it says “To the best with Cecilie’s help”. It may have been a portrait-gift to some charity or organization she was still able to lend her name and support.
 
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 21, 2010, 11:46:16 AM
i think that in her late years he looked very good, but in the period between 1915 (war) and mids 20s she looked very bad, not phisycally but her hairdo, clothes and stuff wasnt flattering to her at all.

Here some  pictures of her  in the late 1930s-  1940s. I think she looks amazing.

With granddaughter Felicitas

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2ut2quq.jpg)


With Wilhelm

(http://i39.tinypic.com/10fn7l4.jpg)

(http://i41.tinypic.com/2nut1lf.jpg)

The couple with their daughters Alexandrine and Cecilie

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/176/430371075_12dafe83b8_o.jpg)



Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 21, 2010, 12:08:02 PM
The couple looked happy & relaxed togather.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 21, 2010, 01:29:28 PM
They were definitely not happy together. Maybe relaxed after years of stress and each/both succumbed to a level of tolerance that made for a relationship with minimal tension.

Another reason Cecilie looks different in post WWI photos is that she went from big hair and tiaras and hats to hair that was plastered down with no hats and jewelry. The ornamentation that such can give a person creates a big difference in their appearance.
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: Olgasha on August 14, 2010, 05:48:31 AM
I love this one - Wilhelm with grandson Prince Wilhelm
(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/7031/097kmm.jpg)
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: José on October 09, 2012, 01:31:07 PM
Can someone post pictures/photos of Kira Harris, please.

In one of these threads there were a few (I remember one with her nanny) but I am afraid I lost it.

Thanks in advance

José
Title: Re: Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I
Post by: grandduchessella on October 10, 2012, 06:58:10 PM
Can someone post pictures/photos of Kira Harris, please.

In one of these threads there were a few (I remember one with her nanny) but I am afraid I lost it.

Thanks in advance

José