Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => Imperial Transportation => Topic started by: ashanti01 on May 12, 2007, 02:30:24 AM

Title: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: ashanti01 on May 12, 2007, 02:30:24 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Livadia/yacht.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Livadia/Lidvaliayacht.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Livadia/bedroom.jpg)
bedroom

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Livadia/study.jpg)
Study room

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Livadia/study1.jpg)
another shot of the Study room

Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: ashanti01 on May 12, 2007, 02:30:55 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Livadia/messroom2.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Livadia/messroom1.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Livadia/palorroom.jpg)
Palor Room

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Livadia/drawingroom.jpg)
drawing room
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Alixz on May 28, 2007, 06:16:54 PM
Beautiful pictures, ashant01, but was there an Imperial yacht name "Livadia"?  I had never heard that before.

I know about the Standart and the Polar Star.  And I thought there was even one named Tsarevna at one time.
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 29, 2007, 01:31:43 AM
Thank you, Ashanti.  Certainly the most lavish of any of the imperial yachts, at least the interiors look nothing like the others. Far more opulent, I think. A pity the bizarre design of the exterior rendered the thing a failure.
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Alixz on May 29, 2007, 08:05:50 AM
Is that why I have never heard of it?  Because it was a failure?

Robert or Ashanti01, could you please post where this information is from?  I would like to look into it!   :)
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: TheAce1918 on May 29, 2007, 11:41:36 AM
Same here.  I was under the impression that only the Standart was the imperial yacht...this new vessel looks grand!
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 29, 2007, 02:04:36 PM
There were several imperial yachts. The Polar Star was the Dowager Empress Marie's to use. I am away from my library [it is in SF, I am in the UK] but one one of the earlier threads dealing with the yachts, under transportation, you can find the sources. Also, lots of pictures. The Livadia, built in Scotland, I think, to the design of  some Russian admiral, was a luuxurious  interior surounded by those bizarre "wings". I forget whether it was AII or AIII who tried it ONCE and refused to use it again as it "flopped about" way too much. It was also useless  as a war vessel for the same reason- guns could not aim & fire  with the least reliability.
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Alixz on May 29, 2007, 05:25:35 PM
Thank you Robert, I found the other thread and have brought the link here.

The LIVADIA was built for Alexander II (he authorized the launch but died before it happened) and launched under Alexander III which is why those of us who specialize in N&A have not heard of it.

I never really thought about other yachts for other Tsars, but of course, they would have had them.

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,812.0.html

This one appears to have been a disaster from the start.
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: TheAce1918 on May 30, 2007, 12:23:17 AM
Thanks you guys! 
Looking at the first and second photos of the ship now, it makes sense why anyone would feel a bit uncomfortable, sailor and citizen alike.  It does appear that underneath the recoil of naval guns, the ship would be rocked relentlessly!
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Alixz on May 30, 2007, 07:15:13 AM
At first glance, I had thought that those "aprons" around the sides of the ship were docking flotilla.  To protect the ship against the docks.

Where ever those photos were taken, the land is very close to the water and so the water must have been quite deep in the channel that the LIVADIA is sitting in.

From a non engineering point of view, I suppose it would make sense to think that by putting those "pontoons" or wings on the side of the ship that it would be more stable.

The interior shots are amazing!  It looks big enough to be an actual palace not the interior of a ship.  And that was the point, right?  To give the interior of the yacht more space and so be able to create the big beautiful rooms.

It looks like and artist not an engineer created the concept.  And as someone else posted ... "Where there no sea trials?"
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 30, 2007, 02:42:40 PM
I wish I could post pics from a book I have on the imperial yachts [Russia]. It is a lavish coffe-table work, in Russian. Remind me when I get back to SF and I shall try to scan some. Douglas usually steps in when it comes to the yachts...channel Douglas!
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Douglas on May 30, 2007, 04:38:31 PM
Thanks Robert ;D.

The  ill fated Livadia was a  nautical disaster from the get go.

Yes,  her odd shape did make for elegant and lavish interior cabins.  Most of her furniture ended up on the Standart.

My older posts about this ship will answer most questions. Here is the link.

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,812.0.html

I guess it can be said that she looked weird and she was weird.

Too bad that they could not have made her hull of two, side by side pontoons.  That kind of hull is in use today and is very stable. It would make a great yacht today as some do actually sail at the present time.

Douglas

PS:

Alixz:  The hull of Livadia is NOT two pontoons but one very wide hull.  The two pontoon idea had not yet been used for a large ship at that time.  It is used now with great success.   It's all in the details.
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: ashanti01 on May 30, 2007, 06:56:45 PM
I posted the pictures because I thought they showed some of the nicest yacht interior's I had ever seen for that time period. I got the pictures from the Russian archive where you can finds ton's of images but I have to warn you, most of the pictures you're probably looking for you will have to hunt around for. :-\ Not the best organized system, but maybe if I knew Russian and used the Russian version instead of the English one, I could get somewhere ;)
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: TheAce1918 on May 30, 2007, 07:25:54 PM
I posted the pictures because I thought they showed some of the nicest yacht interior's I had ever seen for that time period.

IMO, those sets show the finest yacht interiors I've ever seen.  I don't think a private vessel since has come remotely close to such opulence.
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Alixz on May 30, 2007, 07:29:03 PM
Douglas,

I read your information on the other thread and I brought it over here, too  :)

I didn't realize that those "aprons" sticking out from the side were part of the larger hull.  They look like wings!

What an amazing design!  It is good to know, though, that the furnishings ended up on the STANDART.

Thank you for all the information.
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 31, 2007, 01:39:46 AM
 Thanks Douglas! I just knew if I clicked my heels long enough...
Now, do we have deck plans for this nautical curiosity?As  for it's instability at sea, are you saying the idea works but the implemtation was flawed? Personally, I think it would make a lovely houseboat in Marin.
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Alixz on May 31, 2007, 08:02:44 AM
Robert,

Your idea is the best so far.  If I imagined having those interiors in a house boat, Marin would be where it would be!

 ;D
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: ChristineM on May 31, 2007, 04:39:21 PM
The Livadia, designed by an Admiral Popov, was built in Glasgow in the district of Govan by J Elder & Co.   She is usually described as 'turbot'-shaped.   The revolutionary design was for reasons of stability, but this did not prove successful   We have a very fine scaled model of the ship in the city's tranport museum.

The Livadia ended her days as a coal hulk, ferrying coat around the ports of the northern Black Sea, until she was scuttled.

tsaria
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Douglas on June 02, 2007, 10:05:53 AM
Hi Robert:

No...the idea of a turbot shaped hull,  generally speaking,  does not work for ships that are 'sea-going'.

If you want a very wide hull with lots of deck space you have to use two separate hulls....sort of like the old South Seas outrigger boats[ updated of course].

The only way a turbot hull might work is if you had a VERY deep draft on the ship.   But then you would have a very heavy ship and would need to have tremendous power to  be able to move at even a very  slow speed.

For now the idea of the turbot shaped hull died with our dear Admiral Popov.

The ill fated Livadia proved to be an embarrassing nautical flop.



Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: TheAce1918 on June 03, 2007, 11:18:43 PM
The only way a turbot hull might work is if you had a VERY deep draft on the ship.   But then you would have a very heavy ship and would need to have tremendous power to  be able to move at even a very  slow speed.

Wouldn't its ability to take on large bodies of water matter?  Not the Atlantic or Pacific of course, but given this vessel's size, it could easily have sailed all over the northern coast of Russia, Europe, and around the UK as well.
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: rgt9w on February 04, 2009, 06:06:43 PM
I came across this wihile searching the web today. There are some interesting photos of this model of the Livadia.

http://www.waldenfont.com/papermodels/productPage.asp?productID=11
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 04, 2009, 10:18:45 PM
Thank you. I found both the pictures and the article quite interesting.
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Papa on February 14, 2009, 03:40:11 PM
Is this the Standart, or the Polar Star?
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: rgt9w on February 15, 2009, 07:21:37 AM
It's the Imperial Yacht "Livadia".
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 15, 2009, 08:27:55 AM
That is what this thread is about. The others have their own thread.
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Douglas on May 29, 2011, 07:45:00 PM
Here is an article written at the time the yacht was constructed in 1880  It is presented here in three parts.  This is a voyage from Scotland to Sevastopol
Driving on the Black Sea was planned as an educational and sail "with the only development of power machinery - reported in August, AA Popov, -" to enable all machines to personnel calmly look around and become familiar with the operation and management of machines. " After cooking, October 3, the yacht left Grinoksky raid. On board as honorary guests were shipbuilders Pierce, Tideman, and Reed, as well as the controller of the British Navy Admiral Stewart. In Brest, climbed aboard the Grand Duke Konstantin Nikolaevich, and under the general-admiral's flag, "Livadia" moved on Oct. 7, through the Bay of Biscay in Cadiz. By this time, her cake was: 2,9 m nosed, stern - 3,0 m (including secondary, sunken, deadwood - 5.44 m).

The steamer "Experience" (The former yacht Livadia)
Until midnight on October 8 march took place in favorable conditions, at a rate of 12-13 knots. Risen rapidly during the night the wind grew stronger, spreading a strong oncoming swell. With two o'clock in the morning on October 9 waves began to beat in the bow of a pontoon boat - initially rare, these attacks with increasing wind and wave height increased. Progress had to be reduced to 4-5 knots. But strikes continued. Very cautious in their assessments of Reed wrote: "The pounding waves in flat bottom boats were horrible at times ..." About the same reported in the report and IK Vogak: "... One of them was particularly strong, performing the all impression of a collision with a solid object ... "At 10 o'clock in the morning found that the first double bottom compartment was filled with water, quickly had to change course and head to the Spanish port of Ferrol.
According to eyewitnesses, the wave height reached 6.7 m, with the roll did not exceed 3,5 aboard, and pitching - 9 in the extent of 5,5 to 3,5 nose and aft. Screws never denude. "The yacht did not fall - reported to the commander: tableware and high candelabra were motionless in calm, no soup in a bowl, no water in the cup has never leaked.
How, then, "Livadia", led by experienced sailors, came into the center of the storm, and even went against the waves? This is all the more puzzling, since its board were shipbuilders, implying a further test that the yacht is good "when the waves are not too large quantities." As noted by a member of the selection committee captain 2 rank VP Verkhovsky "yacht was never intended for the ocean voyage, and therefore to judge her qualities rather the Black Sea ... her in any case no reason to even on the Black Sea daily by heavy storms. The biggest transition from Odessa to Poti ... yacht will easily 30 or 35 hours, and of course there will be no extremes leaving the port in the most storm ... "
Reid refers directly to the general-admiral, who, he said, believed that one should not lose an opportunity "to make a thorough test of the yacht so we headed into the maw of Biscay gale. About the same, but more diplomatically, and Verkhovsky wrote: "were willing to meet ... a good storm, I wish that we trepnulo to the wind and sea were stronger ...but without it ... and complete opinion about the qualities of the yacht can not .... Sam is the head of the campaign decided on a "test" or he has helped and advised, remained unknown.
In Ferrolskoy bay divers found in the bow of the pontoon, with the left side, 5-foot dent with gaps and cracks in the cladding sheets, bent and broken frames. Have been dumped five on-board and one double bottom compartment. Initially, the cause of injuries considered a collision with floating debris, about what and sent a message to the "Official Gazette", but after
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Douglas on May 29, 2011, 07:45:46 PM
careful inspection, and Russian and foreign experts came to the unanimous opinion - the damage caused by the blows of the waves!
Repairs had to perform afloat by running the command ship of Mechanical Engineers: no European dock could not accommodate "Livadia", and Standfilsky at this time only the retrofit in Sevastopol for the reception of the yacht.
Only seven and a half months of corrected yacht left the Spanish port, continuing April 26, 1881 its transition. Now it was headed by Vice Admiral I. Shestakov. They walked slowly and cautiously, taking cover from the weather by the shore or in ports. Morning of 27 May "Livadia" entered the Sevastopol bay. 3,890 miles, it broke a 381 running hours, spending more than 2900 tons of coal. A special note IA Shestakov said ease of control boat, the straightness of its speed, comfort and lack of pitching. However, he stated that, regardless of speed, even with a slight swell "twitched from blows to the cheeks pancake, and for head-sea" blows his nose was very palpable, with the superstructure "walked" (vibrate). Nevertheless, the admiral thought well and carefully made yacht worthy to exist, but ... after the tests "under all circumstances, the sea and the weather."
Yet determined its destiny, "Livadia" fulfilled its unique, as it turned out, the voyage across the Black Sea. May 29, under the flag of the chief commander of the Black Sea Fleet, she moved to Yalta and taking on board the Admiral General and his brother, Grand Duke Mikhail Nikolayevich, went to Batum, where he returned three days later. Passengers are not so lucky: the sea storms and add-shaking shock waves in a pontoon.
In mid-June, the boat picked up in Standfilskom dock, where she visited members of the committee appointed the new head of the Navy Department Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich. Following an established yet in Ferrol opinion, the commission acknowledged that the injuries received from the yacht blows waves and considered a pontoon hull design, especially in the bow, poor resistance to these attacks. In the MOTC agreed with these findings and prescribed "for safe navigation" to replace any damaged parts with new with increased recruitment into the nasal tip.
In the three weeks stay in the dock underwater part of the pontoon just cleared of shells and greenery, and then re-dyed. Repair work not performed, imposed only three bars on the detected cracks sheet cladding. By this time the leadership of the ministry decided to hold a new yacht for sea trials of a specially designed instruction.
From August 3 to 12 "Livadia" 136 times has passed dimensional mile at Sevastopol. Was removed 312 charts, draft and trim carefully maintained. Before the breakdown of the maximum stroke the boat was prepared for several days, but to reach the 15 knot speed was not possible. At the highest power of advanced machines (9,837 hp..), The average speed was 14.46 knots. Such an affront caused confusion in the ranks of the Commission, it came to charges of defrauding the builders. However, committee member Captain 2 rank G. Vlasov thoroughly proved inaccurate manual testing and lack of skills at the machine instruction to maintain full steam boilers. MTC has supported Vlasevo, noting, in addition, poor quality of coal used. Managing the Marine Ministry, drawing attention to the difference power level during testing in England and Russia have reached 2500 liters.with., angrily remarked that this fact "completely destroys all sorts of calculations and considerations when designing our new ships with a known task.
   
Title: Re: Livadia: Russian Imperial Yacht
Post by: Douglas on May 29, 2011, 07:46:30 PM
"Experience" in Sevastopol
"Experience." View from the nose

August 15 yacht went to Nikolaev, where he "disarmed." In September, her team went back to the Baltic Sea, replacing the Black Sea. Property and furniture began to slowly were took on the port warehouses, in the press boat delicately referred to as "the former ... yacht.
The official conclusion about the weakness of the design of underwater hull served as the verdict of a new type of vessel. However, this "weakness" was the only major consequence of a lack of boats: the case of heavy blows on a rampage, tagged in all swimming, but with the greatest force manifested in Biscay. This phenomenon, later known as "sleming" deprived "Livadia" seaworthiness.
Himself an inventor realized this is one of the first. Back in May, responding to a note by Admiral IA Shestakova, he frankly admitted: "this lack of ... I can say positively that a small deepening of the yacht, which led to its limited displacement is a mistake that I had not foreseen was the extent to which it affected the practice .... In a personal letter AA Popov General Admiral says more precisely: "pitching boat because 1) small deepening 2) flat bottom, producing a phenomenon that other courts do not find in the size of what has the design of the yacht ... when pitching from the corners of 3 1 / 4 or more in the stern, the bottom of the bow laid bare, on which there are: a) committed the destruction of buoyancy bow section that generates a voltage across the yacht anchorage systems, and b) strikes the bottom of the wave .. so strong that both convenience and safety of navigation totally violated ... "