Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Annie on October 28, 2004, 08:25:28 PM

Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Annie on October 28, 2004, 08:25:28 PM
This is very interesting, thanks! I always wanted to know more about this story. I had heard there were pretenders for France too. For anyone who doesn't know French take it to Babelfish.

You know, I really do hope that kid survived, poor little guy. How could anyone torture a child just because his parents were royal? I have wondered if the Tsar's children had been this young would they have recieved any more mercy? Revolutionaries are evil to kill children.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 28, 2004, 09:02:32 PM
Anyone who kills or otherwise hurts a child is evil, not just revolutionaries.
Robert
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Annie on October 29, 2004, 06:13:22 AM
Very true, but to somehow feel that it's justified because of some revolutionary cause makes that even more evil.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Olga on October 29, 2004, 08:33:37 AM
Robert never said it was justified because they were revolutionaries.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: rskkiya on October 29, 2004, 08:40:38 AM
Quote
Very true, but to somehow feel that it's justified because of some revolutionary cause makes that even more evil.


Annie
This really seems an unkind and unjustified comment-- please reread Mr Hall's comment.

Rskkiya
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Annie on October 29, 2004, 09:58:00 AM
Oh for God's sake, WHATEVER!

Killing little kids is wrong

Killing kids just because their parents are on the opposite side of you in the revolution is wrong

However I consider the latter to be even sicker and more evil. Most people who do #1 have mental problems. Most people who do #2 are just evil.

I realize some of you here are 'reds' and take offense to that, but that doesn't change my opinion.

So execute me :P
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Alexa on October 29, 2004, 09:58:48 AM
Quote
Robert never said it was justified because they were revolutionaries.


I dont' think that's what Annie meant (or at least it's not the way I interpreted her response).  The way I took is that it's evil for anyone to hurt or kill and child, but to justify your actions in the name of a revolution takes it above and beyond evil, to a level of evil that's just unspeakable and reprehensable.

Alexa
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Annie on October 29, 2004, 10:29:39 AM
Quote

I dont' think that's what Annie meant (or at least it's not the way I interpreted her response).  The way I took is that it's evil for anyone to hurt or kill and child, but to justify your actions in the name of a revolution takes it above and beyond evil, to a level of evil that's just unspeakable and reprehensable.

Alexa


Yes, thank you, sometimes when I get irritated I don't think straight. Exactly.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Elisabeth on October 29, 2004, 11:03:44 AM
To return to the topic of your thread, Jeremy, you bring up an incredibly interesting parallel, worthy of a book in and of itself.

Have you also looked at English history? There are many historical parallels between the murder of the Russian imperial family and that of the Princes in the Tower - to wit, murdered royal children (in this case, Edward V and his brother, Richard, Duke of York), disappearing corpses (which were not found for some two hundred years), persistent rumors of the children's survival, and the subsequent rise of various pretenders in their name (i.e., Perkin Warbeck and Lambert Simnel).

If you ask me, it was a stroke of genius on the part of the Bolsheviks to keep the murder of the imperial children a mystery for so many years. It deprived the Whites of certain martyrs and lent credence to the stories of various royal claimants, further dividing the anti-Bolshevik cause. It almost makes you think somebody in charge was familiar with Shakespeare's play, "Richard III" - ? But that's doubtful.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Annie on October 29, 2004, 11:17:02 AM
In addition to royal pretenders, there have also been people claiming to be Billy the Kid, John Wilkes Booth, Butch Cassidy and Jesse James. Some of these, I think all of them, have led to bodies being exhumed and DNA tests being done, though I haven't heard about any results. People also frequently claim that they have seen Jim Morrison or Elvis and they aren't really dead either. People just love a mystery.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Elisabeth on October 29, 2004, 11:27:17 AM
This is true, Annie, but in some cases it is simply very politically expedient to lie about what you have done with the heir to the throne - or with the actual rightful king, in the case of Edward V. To have someone "disappear" is far more convenient than to admit openly to having them killed. Not only do you avoid accusations of murder, you also throw the political opposition into total confusion, since they don't know for certain if their leader is dead or still being held in captivity somewhere.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Annie on October 29, 2004, 11:48:55 AM
Oh of course, I know, I just added those others just to show how popular pretenders are and how people seem to love the stories.

There must have been plenty of 'dauphins' in the US in the mid-1800's, Mark Twain even added such a character to "Huck Finn"
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 29, 2004, 12:18:56 PM
Indeed there was ! One supposedly was spirited away by loyalists to Penn. where a house had been built especially for the Queen [MA] The family eventually moved to New Orleans and as of 1948 was in Woodland Hills, CA [of all places].
Another book has the Queen [MA again]  being rescued  from the scaffold and moved safely to Wisconsin !  I guess the "lost" French royals were selling well- books that is- in the post war years !
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Annie on October 29, 2004, 12:55:53 PM
Quote
Indeed there was ! One supposedly was spirited away by loyalists to Penn. where a house had been built especially for the Queen [MA] The family eventually moved to New Orleans and as of 1948 was in Woodland Hills, CA [of all places].
Another book has the Queen [MA again]  being rescued  from the scaffold and moved safely to Wisconsin !  I guess the "lost" French royals were selling well- books that is- in the post war years !
Cheers,
Robert


Interesting, thanks! Wasn't there also a cohort of Napoleon, Michael somebody, who supposedly escaped the firing squad and came to the US and lived for years as a schoolteacher telling his stories of France? I know I read that once.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: RichC on October 29, 2004, 01:07:38 PM
Let's not forget about Pugachev pretending to be Peter III and the False Dmitry.  
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: rskkiya on October 29, 2004, 01:16:54 PM
Quote
To return to the topic of your thread, Jeremy, you bring up an incredibly interesting parallel, worthy of a book in and of itself.

Have you also looked at English history? There are many historical parallels between the murder of the Russian imperial family and that of the Princes in the Tower - to wit, murdered royal children (in this case, Edward V and his brother, Richard, Duke of York), disappearing corpses (which were not found for some two hundred years), persistent rumors of the children's survival, and the subsequent rise of various pretenders in their name (i.e., Perkin Warbeck and Lambert Simnel).

If you ask me, it was a stroke of genius on the part of the Bolsheviks to keep the murder of the imperial children a mystery for so many years. It deprived the Whites of certain martyrs and lent credence to the stories of various royal claimants, further dividing the anti-Bolshevik cause. It almost makes you think somebody in charge was familiar with Shakespeare's play, "Richard III" - ? But that's doubtful.


Dear Elizabeth...
OUCH!!!
Lets not bring up Richard III  -- if you think that the Romanovs have rabid supporters ( ;) :) ) wait till you meet the "White Rose/RIII Society" fanatics! LOL
Rskkiya
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 29, 2004, 01:19:19 PM
Ever been to one of their dinners !
Quite fun to put it mildly.
Cheers !!! to the "King over the water"!
Robert
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Annie on October 29, 2004, 02:09:25 PM
Didn't people used to not believe the story of the princes in the tower until the bodies were eventually found?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Annie on October 29, 2004, 03:21:41 PM
Please do, thanks!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: rskkiya on October 29, 2004, 06:09:23 PM
Quote
Peace and good vibes everyone

The Richard III Society certainly is a scary group of people (Some Richard III fans here in the States have been known to protest outside productions of "Richard III") ..and what's interesting is the society doesn't really have a good explanation as to why Richard III failed to produce the Princes and present them to the public when it would've been well to his advantage to do so...hmmm.....could it be because they were already dead????

Jeremy



Jeremy   PLEASE!
Lets not go into Richard III here--as a so called scary member I don't care to discuss this topic on this thread. (These "Princes" had been declared royal bastards, so why anyone should want to see them is rather moot...) However the bones found have not been proven to be the princes at all! For all we know they may have belonged to anyone !

Peace and Good vibes indeed! >:( >:( >:(
Hail Sweet Richard! House of York!
Rskkiya

PS  Jeremy do private message me if you want to discuss this further....

[glb]Back to TOPIC please![/glb]
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: rskkiya on October 30, 2004, 02:23:36 PM
On Topic!

  Well, it is an interesting notion to examine the psychological state of people who have made "pretender" claims--some are very intelegent people who just want more glamour & excitement in their lives, and some are emotionally unstable.
   I have yet to be convinced of the validity of any modern pretenders. Are there any good books about this that someone might recommend ?

Rskkiya
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Angie_H on October 30, 2004, 03:29:36 PM
Quote

Wonderful information on the topic can be found in Deborah Cadburry's wonderful book "The Lost King of France: A story of revenge, revolution, and DNA"


Jeremy

  


Jeremy this was a great book! Before the IF I loved to read books about the Bourbon dynasty. (Louis XIV and N & A had similar views on their status as sovereign if you ask me) This story was so sad, how Louis XVII captors basically let this little boy rot away in his cell.  It took centuries to find out what happened to him, but when they did, he was where his parents would have put him if they had been able to, buried with his ancestors
Angie
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Michelle on November 09, 2004, 09:18:50 PM
Jeremy, I'd like to read your new info!!! :D :D
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Karentje on November 10, 2004, 01:30:25 PM
Bring it on jeremy  :D ;)
Enlighten us, please!!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Denise on November 10, 2004, 01:48:16 PM
Yes, please, Jeremy--this is all very interesting.  Please tell us more!!

Denise
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 10, 2004, 02:44:19 PM
I had mis-stated earlier, it is the Stuart Society that drinks to the "King over the water". Anyway, I have a small book here that tells the story of 27 "Pretenders The The English Throne", by Jeremy Potter. There are probably more.
And, of course we can't forget Zsa Zsa's "Hohenzollern" pretender. And did Barbra Hutton not once marry a pretender to some throne?
Lost Aztec & Inca emperors, and even a few Chinese, one living in Hawaii seems to come & go- he claims to be the rightful Machu Emperor.
Cheers,
Robert

Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Elisabeth on November 10, 2004, 05:55:49 PM
Hi, Jeremy, thanks for coming to my defense! I love the mystery of the Princes in the Tower (although unlike Rskkiya, I don't think it's a mystery any longer!).

But back to the Dauphin pretenders: what about Casper Hauser? Wasn't he the most famous claimant? A very tragic figure, if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: rskkiya on November 10, 2004, 06:26:05 PM
Hello Elizabeth
--I am sorry if you feel that you needed to be protected from poor little me! LOL. ;)

Jeremy
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Please do show us this facinating information. I am quite unaware of this particular event.


rskkiya
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 10, 2004, 08:40:39 PM
Although there were some similarities with the Daupin & Casper Hauser, they were not related.
Casper Hauser never claimed to be anyone. He had been confined im a castle, uneducated and neglected except for food. He was used as a claimant [cause celebre] in various feuds within the Baden family in post-Napoleonic Gernany. It gets very complicated as he was used and abandoned by various factions, all for their own ends, of course. [see:de Ghislain de Diesbach, SECRETS of the GOTHA]
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 16, 2004, 08:51:55 AM
Hi Jeremy,

I have just come over from the other thread where we also started discussing the dauphin pretenders, and I would also like to hear what you've got, when you have the chance to translate that website...

Helen
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Annie on November 16, 2004, 08:55:37 AM
Quote
Hi Jeremy,

I have just come over from the other thread where we also started discussing the dauphin pretenders, and I would also like to hear what you've got, when you have the chance to translate that website...

Helen


I second that!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Denise on November 16, 2004, 09:37:52 AM
I third that motion!!  ;D
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Annie on June 13, 2006, 10:58:47 PM
Bump since the topic has come up again
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Tania+ on June 14, 2006, 10:33:03 AM
? ? ?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 14, 2006, 10:45:23 AM
Interesting that in the case of the dauphin pretenders, there was also at least one pretender to be his sister, Madame Royale, despite the fact that she was very much alive and verified by her own family.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Annie on June 14, 2006, 11:50:50 AM
Quote
Interesting that in the case of the dauphin pretenders, there was also at least one pretender to be his sister, Madame Royale, despite the fact that she was very much alive and verified by her own family.

People will stop at nothing!

I feel so bad for the poor boy, why was his sister allowed to live and he was treated so poorly?

Here is her story
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Marie-Th%C3%A9r%C3%A8se-Charlotte

Another sad story.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Annie on June 14, 2006, 11:54:10 AM
Quote
? ? ?

I answered you on the other thread, here goes again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XVII_of_France

"Dauphin" was a term like 'tsarevich' or 'crown prince' meaning heir to the throne. The young son of Marie Antionette and Louis XVI was taken away as a small child, of only 4, held prisoner and treated badly. He was said to have died at age 10, but for many years claimants came forward pretending to be him. As in the case of AN, all were eventually proven frauds.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Tania+ on June 14, 2006, 12:10:01 PM
[size=10]My Dear Annie,

Please ! There is no 'here we go again' period.

My question mark is in regards to this : My initial question was of course responded to you in regards to the spelling of dauphin. At my age 63, if in my schooling I had not learned about the Dauphin, then that would have been deplorable. You do not have to 'explain' it further to me. I am somewhat educated.... ;)

Further, I know who and what a Dauphin is, and how to spell it, I was just thrown as to how you had  spelled dauphin, and saw that it was the first time it had been brought up in any part of the thread.

Secondly, you brought it up, nobody else did, to my understanding in looking over the threads. Then I saw this morning that a thread had been revived by you, stating that it needed bumping up, as someone had made inquiry about it. I did not see that anyone else had, and so my question in full regarding all.

That's all, pure and simple, no hidden agenda, or issue.  ;)

Tatiana+[/size]

Quote
Quote
? ? ?

I answered you on the other thread, here goes again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XVII_of_France

"Dauphin" was a term like 'tsarevich' or 'crown prince' meaning heir to the throne. The young son of Marie Antionette and Louis XVI was taken away as a small child, of only 4, held prisoner and treated badly. He was said to have died at age 10, but for many years claimants came forward pretending to be him. As in the case of AN, all were eventually proven frauds.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 14, 2006, 12:10:24 PM
Madame Royale was "exchanged" for French prisoners and  went to her Austrian relatives. Later, she married her first cousin, Duc d'Alencon, younger son of her uncle, Charles X, king of France after the restoration.  After the assasination of the older brother,  Alecon became king very briefly. So, Madame Royale, to legititimistes, was Queen of France- for about 20 minutes. She later died in exile, peacefully.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on June 14, 2006, 12:20:02 PM
One thing that struck me after reading The Lost King of France by Deborah Cadbury was just how manipulative some of the pretenders were. One wrote to Madame Royal several times berating her for refusing to meet her 'brother.' It seems cruel to exploite her past, somthing she never recovered from, in such a way.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Annie on June 14, 2006, 12:56:57 PM
Quote
One thing that struck me after reading The Lost King of France by Deborah Cadbury was just how manipulative some of the pretenders were. One wrote to Madame Royal several times berating her for refusing to meet her 'brother.' It seems cruel to exploite her past, somthing she never recovered from in such a way.

Oh how sad. That's a horrible way to treat someone who's experienced such tragedy. Just like the claimants did to poor Olga A.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 14, 2006, 03:19:06 PM
Quote
Let's not forget about Pugachev pretending to be Peter III and the False Dmitry.  


Dear RichC,

Pugachev only pretended to be Peter III not Dmitry. There were a number of false Dmitrys but they all lived long before the birth of Pugachev.

David
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 14, 2006, 03:47:52 PM
Quote
"Dauphin" was a term like 'tsarevich' or 'crown prince' meaning heir to the throne. The young son of Marie Antionette and Louis XVI was taken away as a small child, of only 4, held prisoner and treated badly. He was said to have died at age 10, but for many years claimants came forward pretending to be him. As in the case of AN, all were eventually proven frauds.


Dauphin is the Langue d'Oc (the southern dialect of French) word for dolphin. The title Dauphin was used by the feudal lord of the Dauphiné, a former French province that now encompases the modern southeastern French Departments of Isère, Drôme and Hautes-Alpes. To see the coat-of-arms of the Dauphin see this link and scroll down to the shield with the dolphin: http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/9_1999/npi0999/9_livree2.htm

David
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Annie on June 14, 2006, 04:09:01 PM
That's very interesting, thanks! I thought the name had something to do with dolphins.

While I have always been interested in British and Russian royalty, I've never researched much on the French, but now I will.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 14, 2006, 05:35:43 PM
I was thinking about the title of this thread, Anna Anderson, and the Dauphin pretenders and realised that there were many similar titles to explore:

Anna Anderson and the Temple of Fools; Anna Anderson and the Burning Lie; Anna Anderson and the Elusive Treasure; Anna Anderson and the Hoodwinked Historian; Anna Anderson and the Quest for Gold; Anna Anderson and the Crusade for the Crown and finally Anna Anderson and the Mask of Delusion.

Just some random thoughts on a very tired topic.

David
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on June 14, 2006, 05:50:00 PM
Quote
I was thinking about the title of this thread, Anna Anderson, and the Dauphin pretenders and realised that there were many similar titles to explore:

Anna Anderson and the Temple of Fools; Anna Anderson and the Burning Lie; Anna Anderson and the Elusive Treasure; Anna Anderson and the Hoodwinked Historian; Anna Anderson and the Quest for Gold; Anna Anderson and the Crusade for the Crown and finally Anna Anderson and the Mask of Delusion.

Just some random thoughts on a very tired topic.

David

;D Your titles are wonderful!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson and the Dauphin pretenders
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 14, 2006, 06:14:44 PM
David, you forgot "I led 3 [or 4 or 5...] Lives, by Anna Anderson,  The Many Faces of Anna Anderson, and on and on...