Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Tsarevich Alexei Nicholaievich => Topic started by: Lolita on June 13, 2007, 10:13:25 AM

Title: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Lolita on June 13, 2007, 10:13:25 AM
That's just so wack

and also,i wonder what happened to the dog AFTER the assasination
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Historybuff_262 on June 13, 2007, 11:43:44 AM
Joy was taken by a soldier and ended up in England on a farm.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Eddie_uk on June 13, 2007, 01:09:53 PM
I don't think it's weird at all. Joy wasn't in the muder room at the time. Apparently when the whites arrived at the hose they found  Joy wondering around the yard half starving and blind (?). One of the whites must have taken her under his wing I presume because she ended up on a farm near Windsor, bless her!
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on June 13, 2007, 11:45:16 PM
Is it true that Anastasia took Jemmy into the room with her? Recently, I heard that was just a rumor. Also, why didn't Aleksey bring Joy with him? I mean, it's good he didn't. At least someone survived, even if it was a dog. The Romanovs were woken up in the middle of the night, and told to get dressed. That usually means you're going somewhere. Why wouldn't Aleksey bring Joy with him?

Another thing, why was Joy half blind? Maybe instead of killing her, someone kicked her in the face or something?  :-\
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Annie on June 14, 2007, 09:23:14 AM
Why wouldn't Aleksey bring Joy with him?

Alexei was still hurt from sledding downstairs and couldn't walk so Nicholas had to carry him. The dog would have had to follow along, and maybe she didn't and they thought they'd get her later with their things. Or maybe the dog sensed danger and refused to go into the room?

I have heard stories about Ortino, and even Jemmy, being killed for barking at the Bolsheviks and snapping at their legs. It would make sense if all the dogs did this, since dogs are so protective of their owners and their owners were in danger.

BTW is that a Tazmainian Tiger on your sig? Don't you think they should take specimens from the stuffed ones and try to clone them? They were the coolest things, dog's head and bark, tiger body and tail, but their jaws were like a crocodile but they were marsupials. What a unique animal. People are so ignorant to  kill them all, just like passenger pigeons and great auks.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Margarita Markovna on June 14, 2007, 01:34:45 PM
Is it true that Anastasia took Jemmy into the room with her?
I believe it's in The Final Chapter by Massie that the body of the dog was found in a mine shaft or something. I don't have the exact page right now because my copy's on loan to a friend. :( Sorry.

Quote
Another thing, why was Joy half blind? Maybe instead of killing her, someone kicked her in the face or something?  :-\
I'm not positive, but I always thought it was just because Joy was old. My dog, also old, is nearly deaf. Might just be an age thing.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Historybuff_262 on June 14, 2007, 03:09:51 PM
There were some examinations of the dog found in the pit, and it seemed that the dog couldn't have been put there in July 1918.  ???
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Margarita Markovna on June 15, 2007, 08:37:15 AM
Oh yeah, it hadn't decomposed enough, right?

It's a mystery, but by no stretch the biggest one having to do with that night. 
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Bob_the_builder on June 17, 2007, 01:59:40 AM
How is it wierd? Joy was not in the execution room. Only in the house. It's not like people are spiritually intertwined with their dogs and that the dog had to die just because Alexei died  ::)

And I think it's pretty obvious that the whites planted the dog in the mine as Summer and Mangfold concluded. The condition of the dog showed it certainly hadn't been dead that long and the fact is that it had not decomposed after all that time at the bottom of a pit! I think not. And why didn't they see him the first time they searched the mine? Because he wasn't there. It just goes to show that the Whites weren't completely honest at all, and that they did indeed plant some of the evidence.

That's where "The File on the Tsar" is still useful. While obviously the family didn't escape to Perm, it's still valid in the way it pointed out the obvious holes in the Sokolov report.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Natasya on June 17, 2007, 03:57:16 PM
For the first point you made, I don't think it's weird that Joy didn't die. It's more that she wasn't brought into the room with them that's weird.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Joyann1 on June 18, 2007, 02:52:01 PM
well its cool he survived.
i liked ortino more becuase he almost looks the same as myn french bulldog xD
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Lolita on June 23, 2007, 12:41:28 PM
Joy wasn't in the murder room at the time.

I guess it's not that weird after all
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: dmitri on June 24, 2007, 04:53:39 AM
The dog was hardly going to be able to be proclaimed Tsar or Tsarina as a challenger to the  Bolsheviks. It's pretty easy to see why it survived.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Kurt Steiner on June 24, 2007, 12:10:54 PM
The dog was hardly going to be able to be proclaimed Tsar or Tsarina as a challenger to the  Bolsheviks. It's pretty easy to see why it survived.

My thoughts, exactly.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: skitzo12 on July 01, 2007, 02:50:07 AM
The dog was hardly going to be able to be proclaimed Tsar or Tsarina as a challenger to the  Bolsheviks. It's pretty easy to see why it survived.
good point
but even then, why wouldn't they kill it afterwards?
bizzare
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Natasya on July 01, 2007, 07:54:44 PM
Yeah, they don't really seem like the people who are concerned with preserving lives, even if they are those of innocents and animals.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: KiKi on July 14, 2007, 06:47:52 PM
Today I was reading The Quest for Anastasia, Solving the Mystry of the Lost Romanovs by John Klier and Helen Mingay and it says when the Whites arrived at the Ekatarinburg a guard named Mikhail Letermin found Joy, the King Charles Spaniel "waiting patiently outside teh royal rooms on the morning of 17 July.  You'll be waiting a long time, he thought, before deciding to take the animal home." (pg 55)

And in the same book on pg 73 it says " The most important and poignant new find, made on 25 Jul 1919y, at the bottom of the open mine, was the body of a small dog, wich witnesses identified as that of Jemmy, Anastasia's lapdog."

In that part of the country it doesn't get much over 65F.  So, a year later, so, 5 of the moths, it was bellow 32F or 0C and then 4 more of the months it was colder than the avarage refridgerator (sp).  It could be the reason the dog was not totally decomposed in a year. 
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Natasya on July 14, 2007, 07:07:26 PM
Another reason could be if the dog wasn't burned or put in the acid, then the bodies would end up looking like they'd been there longer than the dog's.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: KiKi on July 14, 2007, 08:02:58 PM
That could be, too.  Maybe they just tossed the dog in.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: tatianolishka_ on July 15, 2007, 12:44:12 AM
I see your point. They killed Jimmy and probably Ortino; why was Joy spared? Did they have a soft spot for spaniels or something?
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Damie on August 05, 2007, 12:51:27 AM
Is it true that Anastasia took Jemmy into the room with her? Recently, I heard that was just a rumor. Also, why didn't Aleksey bring Joy with him? I mean, it's good he didn't. At least someone survived, even if it was a dog. The Romanovs were woken up in the middle of the night, and told to get dressed. That usually means you're going somewhere. Why wouldn't Aleksey bring Joy with him?

Another thing, why was Joy half blind? Maybe instead of killing her, someone kicked her in the face or something?  :-\

Yes, Anastasia was carrying Jemmy in her arms while she and the family were led down to the basement. Of course, Aleksei was being carried by his father and I can only suppose they thought Joy was following them.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Annie on December 12, 2007, 07:32:20 PM
I see your point. They killed Jimmy and probably Ortino; why was Joy spared? Did they have a soft spot for spaniels or something?

I don't think anyone had any soft spots that night. Most likely, Joy was able to slip away and get out the door somehow (like Toto in the Wizard of Oz)


Here is the story told by Baroness Sophie Buxhoevedon when she met up with Joy again( in Omsk while she was with the British military, who helped her leave Russia) What a bittersweet story, the dog saved, not the owners, and the dog always grieving for them.

General Dietrichs told me that the Tsarevich's small spaniel, Joy, was with him at Omsk. The dog had been his small master's constant companion, and had been taken both to Tobolsk and to Ekaterinburg. At Tobolsk the Tsarevich had often been highly amused at the dog's contempt of the Kommissars' orders, for whenever Joy espied me passing the house he would manage to slip through the gates and greet me boisterously. The poor little beast had been found by the Czechs when they took Ekaterinburg, wandering about half famished in the courtyard of the Ipatieff house. He seemed to be always looking for his master, and this had made him so sad and dejected that he would scarcely touch his food even when he was lovingly cared for. I went to see Joy, and he, evidently connecting me in his dog's brain with his masters, imagined that my coming announced theirs. Never did I see an animal in such ecstasy.

When I called him he made one bound out of the carriage and tore down the platform towards me, jumping in the air and running about me in wide circles, when he did not cling to me with his forepaws, walking upright like a circus dog. General Dietrichs said that he had never given such a welcome to anyone before, and I attributed this solely to the fact that my clothes, which were the same that I had worn at Tobolsk, had still kept a familiar smell, for I had never specially petted him. When I left, Joy lay for a whole day near the door through which I had gone. He refused his food and relapsed again into his usual despondency.

What had little Joy seen on that terrible night of July 16? He had been with the Imperial Family to the last. Had he withessed the tragedy? His brain had evidently kept the memory of a great shock, and his heart was broken.

It was pathetic seeing this dumb friend, who brought back the memory of the Tsarevich so vividly. Little Joy was well cared for. He was taken to England by Colonel Rodzianko and spent his last years in the utmost canine comfort, but still never recovered his spirits.


Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: koloagirl on December 12, 2007, 09:13:47 PM

Aloha all!

Was there not a story that Joy had gone blind when they found him?  I wonder if this is a "tall tale" or truth -- the story above seems to indicate that he was sighted at the time he met the Baroness at least.

It breaks my heart to think of that dog, lovingly cared for by Alexei all those years -- and suddenly and inexplicably lost to him -- animals are
so sensitive to "their people" and their feelings - I'm sure he went through a lot of trauma and couldn't understand why he was suddenly without "his people" and never found them again.

The one bittersweet thing about all of it is that he did live a long life in comfort and care - I hope he was so very spoiled and pampered!

Janet R.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Peterhof on December 16, 2007, 11:35:20 PM
It just ocurred to me that Sokolov could have used Joy to find the bodies of the IF.  Joy could have picked up the trace at the mines and follow it all the way to the burial site.  I think Joy would have cooperated fully in its desire to find its owners.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: AGRBear on December 17, 2007, 01:56:02 PM
The story about Jimmy/Jemmy  death is murky. 

Some think the dog was killed on the night of 16/17 July 1918.

His body was found at the bottom of the Four Brother's Mine by the Whites in July of 1919 just shortly before the Red retook Ekaterinburg.  According to scientists,  it is believed that the dog was killed about June of 1919 and placed in the bottom of the shaft.   The body was
not decomposed enough to have been in the shaft for more than six weeks,  certainly not as long as a year.  It is a theory that the Whites or the Reds had  killed Jemmy and planted his body to be found which would help prove  the Imperial Famiy and the others had been killed.

AGRBear

Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Isabella on May 18, 2008, 01:27:40 PM
Not really - they had much more pressing matters to take care of, who would bother about some dog?
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 19, 2008, 01:58:55 PM
It's not so much weird that Alexei was killed and Joy was not--as Alexei was one of the main people they were after--but that the other dogs were killed and Joy was not.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: nena on May 19, 2008, 02:19:44 PM
Scene at Ipatiev house, late summer 1918, one guard saw Joy near door of tsarevich's room, and poor Joy was awaiting for him.
Guard told Joy: ' You are waitig to no end'
what a irony!  :(
But I agree there's nothing wierd about that.  :-\

Nena
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 20, 2008, 03:49:01 AM
Some people claim dogs are psychic and know when the owner is about to return home.  This must not have been so in Joy's case.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: nena on May 20, 2008, 08:19:14 AM
Some people claim dogs are psychic and know when the owner is about to return home.  This must not have been so in Joy's case.
I agree with you, CorisCapnSkip.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: EmmyLee on May 20, 2008, 01:52:18 PM
Sophie Buxhoevedon's story about Joy (that Annie posted) is so sad. I think the image of Joy "always looking for his master, and this had made him so sad and dejected that he would scarcely touch his food even when he was lovingly cared for" is heartwrenching for anyone who loves animals, especially dogs. To me, it especially seems to make one realize the shock anyone close to the family would have felt at learning for the first time of their murder.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: nena on May 20, 2008, 03:49:12 PM
EmmyLee, good verdict-I agree with you.  :)
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: DanlScott on May 25, 2008, 09:47:42 PM
Is it true that Anastasia took Jemmy into the room with her? Recently, I heard that was just a rumor. Also, why didn't Aleksey bring Joy with him? I mean, it's good he didn't. At least someone survived, even if it was a dog. The Romanovs were woken up in the middle of the night, and told to get dressed. That usually means you're going somewhere. Why wouldn't Aleksey bring Joy with him?

Another thing, why was Joy half blind? Maybe instead of killing her, someone kicked her in the face or something?  :-\

Yes, Anastasia was carrying Jemmy in her arms while she and the family were led down to the basement. Of course, Aleksei was being carried by his father and I can only suppose they thought Joy was following them.

In all the accounts I've read about the execution, none of the three dogs are ever mentioned as being brought down into the basement.  Nor is Aanastasia holding Jemmy accounted for in any descriptions of the eecutions themselves.  In fact, in "Fate of the Romanovs" it is specifically pointed out that the dogs were left upstairs.  The family was told they were being taken to a safer place due to disturbances in the town; given that they didn't bring bring any luggage, I speculate they knew they were going to the basement or some other place temporarily, and so thought they would return to their dogs shortly (OR, they knew this was the end).  Ortina apparently was killed while the bodies were being removed from the basement; a guard saw him and bayonetted the dog before throwing him into the back of the Fiat.  It would seem Jemmy, as well as Joy, survived the night.  The fact that his body wasn't discovered during the first investigation, but only much later, can lead circumstantially that Jemmy lived, was found, then "sacrificed" for political reasons.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 27, 2008, 03:28:13 AM
They didn't know it was the end until the order was read.  This was such a shock the Tzar asked that it be repeated.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: nena on May 27, 2008, 04:37:36 AM
Now I don't understand...Ortino was killed, Joy also, and Jemmy. ?
What is true? I read Joy survived, Jemmy was killed with Anastasia.---and found in 1919 by Sokolov.
For Ortino I don't know.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Natasya on May 27, 2008, 05:48:07 PM
I always thought that Ortino died before...but I don't know for sure.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Joyann1 on May 27, 2008, 05:49:51 PM
i dont know for sure what happend with ortino either.
i heared he went to ekatarinberg with tatiana but what happend there with him stay's a mystery for me
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: tatianolishka_ on May 27, 2008, 09:15:57 PM
The only dog that is proven to have survived the execution is Joy, who was rescued by the Whites and spent the remainder of his life in England.

It is speculated that Ortino was stabbed by an executioner after she was found upstairs barking.

Somehow, a the body of a dog that Mr. Gibbes (or was it Gilliard?) identified as Jemmy wound up at the bottom of a mineshaft. However, the dog's decomposition rate didn't match up to that of how it should've been had Jemmy died the night of the murders.

 That is all we know to this point regarding the two dogs' fate as far as I know.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Victory_L on September 06, 2008, 11:22:13 AM
Good day! Sorry, I don't speak English. About dogs write in russian: http://www.dog.ru/index.php3?mode=1&id=415036   I from Peterburg, Tsarskoe Selo. Main name is Victoria (in russiandog forum - Kusado). lng-home@mail.ru
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: AGRBear on September 12, 2008, 11:27:05 AM
I don't believe  dog bones were found in the mass grave.

Some bones,  chicken,  if I remember correctly, were found where some of the buriel crew ate by the Four Brothers Mine.  This site was carefully excavated by the Whites  before Sokolov became the man in charge of the investigation under Gen. Diterikhs.  It wasn't until July of 1919  Solovev  claim they found the dog named Jemmy's body at the bottom of the shaft which he claimed proved the dog and the royal family were murdered in the early morning of the 17th of July 1918.  Scientists have proven that the dogs body was  planted, therefore,  if it was Jemmy, he was killed around the latter part of June 1919.  Gilliard was the one who claimed the dog was Jemmy.

No dog bones have been reported to have been found in the two pits discovered July 2007.



AGRBear




Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Victory_L on September 12, 2008, 01:56:23 PM
Want you photo dead dog?
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: tatianolishka_ on September 13, 2008, 09:46:47 PM
AGRbear - No, I don't believe any canine remains were in the grave either. I'm not sure if the dog found by Soloviev is indeed Jemmy; I'm merely repeating what I've learned through this forum.

Victory_L - I have seen the photo, it's very sad to see that poor dog. After loosing my own dog I haven't been able to look at it again.
Title: Re: The fact his dog survived and not Alexei is so weird.
Post by: Victory_L on September 14, 2008, 12:06:06 PM
AGRbear - No, I don't believe any canine remains were in the grave either. I'm not sure if the dog found by Soloviev is indeed Jemmy; I'm merely repeating what I've learned through this forum.

Victory_L - I have seen the photo, it's very sad to see that poor dog. After loosing my own dog I haven't been able to look at it again.
tatianolishka! My old littly dog( Bessy) also not long ago die. The - it is painful! :-( But  the Truth-is important! Мr. Gibbs  identify this dog (Jimmi), also Tutelberg, Tegleva and Ersberg. N.Sokolov: "Труп собаки самки.

Собака была найдена 25 июня 1919 года на дне открытой шахты. Благодаря низкой температуре в шахте труп хорошо сохранился.

Правая передняя лапа сломана. Череп пробит, отчего, по заключению врача, и произошла ее смерть.

Гиббс показал: У Анастасии Николаевны была маленькая собачка  с длинной шерстью. Окрас ее был черно-рыжий... Ее отличительные приметы были вот какие: у нее были большие круглые глаза; зубы ее были обнажены и постоянно виднелись, язык у нее был длинный и висел изо рта, не помню, на какую сторону. Кличка ее была Джемми. Такие собачки очень маленькие, и их часто носят на руках. Принадлежала она Анастасии Николаевне, любили эту собачку они все, а в особенности Императрица. Я сегодня видел собачку у шахты. Я утверждаю, что эта собачка, которую я видел у шахты, и есть Джемми. Я обратил внимание и на ее шерсть, и на форму глазных впадин, и на зубы. Это безусловно она.

Тутельберг, Теглева и Эрсберг также опознали ее.
Why  we  doubt  over 90 year?