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Messages - coquelicot

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1
French Royals / Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« on: April 18, 2009, 02:37:04 PM »
I've read that book too but no longer have a copy of it. I think the implication that Eleanor Herman was trying to make was that these were indeed love letters, but what's her source on this? Have you ( or anyone else) read this elsewhere? I believe we do have some letters that were written between Fersen and MA and that they were not love letters though parts of the letters were destroyed so there was the suspicion by some that these destroyed passages might have content that was more private. It's been so long since I read about this in detail.
There actually are many letters between Fersen and the queen. They are all political ones. It is true that some passages have been deleted, but some lines only, and not specifically at the begining or the end of the letters. We don't know who did it. According to Fersen's descendants, it was done by the count himself. From this we can reasonably think that those passages were political, and mainly concerned king Louis XVI. Nesta Webster's analyse on this subject still is the more relevant one, in my opinion.

2
French Royals / Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« on: April 18, 2009, 02:33:14 PM »
I recently read a book entitled "Sex with the Queen" about queens throughout history and their various relationships both within and outside their marriages. The relationship between Marie Antoinette and Fersen is explored, and there was one interesting point the author, Eleanor Herman, brought up. She said that one day as Louis XVI was out hunting, a package of letters was brought to him. He sat down to read them, and when he was finished, he wept. It was speculated that these were intercepted love letters between Antoinette and Count Fersen. What do you think of this?
This explanation actually comes from Saint Priest. However, this man's wife had a liaison with Fersen, and we thus can suspect his testimony.

In fact, Louis XVI was given letters while hunting and, after reading them, he broke up in tears. Nowadays scholars often consider that these letters concerned political matters.

Anyway, these could not be intercepted letters between the queen and Fersen, for entries in Fersen's correspondence resume only concern official letters, which could not hurt Louis. Maybe more friendly letters existed also, but we must examine this with a pintch of salt, for it was a theory invented by Alma Söderjhelm, who often affirms things coming from her imagination. Anyway, this friendly correspondence would be signed up "Josephine" by the queen, and only countains, according to Fersen's resume, fashion or musical topics. Nothing that could hurt Louis either... But, first of all, who was this Josephine ? Who where those Josephine, for it seems Fersen knew more than one Josephine...

See how complicated it is !?

3
French Royals / Re: Queen Marie Antoinette
« on: November 26, 2007, 03:02:47 PM »
Dear Mari, I am deeply sorry... I did not see your messages until today. I can't get those gallica files either, don't understand why, it happens for the first time... I guess you could "telecharger" (copy) those, then, but this method is more complicated, and the site you found seems more interesting for you. God ! What a discovery ! I never saw those letters translated in English ! It is just wonderful !

If you although wish to copy those gallica books in French, you must click on "telecharger", then, a new page appears, click on "ok", new page, you put you mouse on "en cliquant ici" and, using your right clic, you can register the file in your computer.

4
French Royals / Re: Queen Marie Antoinette
« on: November 22, 2007, 11:25:47 AM »
I once read this. As far I as remember, it was around Artois' wedding. Mercy wrote to Marie Therese that he was worried about those two Savoy princesses in Versailles. It is possible to read all the correspondence between Mercy and Marie Therese on Gallica site :
http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/catalog.php?Mod=i&Titre=&FondsTout=on&FondsTxt=on&FondsImp=on&FondsPer=on&FondsImg=on&FondsAud=on&FondsMan=on&Auteur=&Sujet=&RPT=correspondance+secrete+mercy+marie+therese

The link opens to all these books, "correspondance secrète entre Marie Thérèse et le comte de Mercy Argenteau".

5
French Royals / Re: Queen Marie Antoinette
« on: November 22, 2007, 01:39:43 AM »
And then there were those politics reasons : Marie Antoinette represented the alliance with Austria, and this Madame came from Savoy. Mercy wrote about it to Marie Therese... two princesses coming from Savoy, this was a little bit crowdy !

6
French Royals / Re: Queen Marie Antoinette
« on: November 17, 2007, 04:42:11 AM »
I really don't know, dear, and I also wonder, for it is certain that hygiena was extremely important for Marie Antoinette. She used to nath every day or almost and, if not, to receive "toilette sèche" (dry cleaning with scented linen), she even used a "jet de propreté" (a little fontain) in her water closet. Indeed, Marie Antoinette was a very clean person !

Then, she had these hemorrages... One thing is certain, she was provided with a bidet in the conciergerie, so that we can imagine she benefited of some kind of privacy to use it ! I don't know about her receiving water for cleaning or not... and even about her clothes, the testimonies are full of contradictions.

However, knowing where she was, in the conciergerie, and having seen her poor furniture, we are entitled to imagine how terribly this former queen was treated by the revolution... Humiliated untill the more intimate of her body ! I hate this so much !

7
French Royals / Re: Queen Marie Antoinette
« on: November 16, 2007, 05:57:25 PM »
Indeed, Marie Antoinette had to ask for clothes. Didn't they want to humiliate her ? She was ill and lost blood. She did not receive anything for that. Rosalie had to cut her own linen to give pieces to the queen. And on the very last morning, Marie Antoinette had to undress in front of a gard, who refused to leave.


8
French Royals / Re: Queen Marie Antoinette
« on: November 14, 2007, 08:31:20 AM »
That is true, Chauveau Lagarde and Tronson Ducoudray were assigned just before the trial opened. Chauveau Lagarde wrote about it : he was away in the country and had to get back to Paris at once. They both met Marie Antoinette in her cell and told her to ask for a few days more so that they could examine the charges. She first refused to ask those men who condamned the king, her husband, but her lawyers insisted, reminding her of her children, who needed their mother. So, the queen accepted and sent a letter. Her request was not accepted.

Indeed, Marie Antoinette's replies are very short and clever. The most famous one his her indignation when accused of incest : "I did not answer because nature refuses to answer such an inculpation made to a mother ! And I appeal ot all those (mothers) who could be here !". Even the terrible knitters were moved and felt solidare.

A less known reply is about a paper she was accused to have written for money. She asked when it was written. On August 10th, they said. Then, she replied it was impossible, for, on August 10th, she and her family went to the Assembly at 8 in the morning. How could she make a paper for money when she was imprisonned in the logographe cage ! See how sensible, present and clever she was, even so tired !

Then, there are her replies when questionned a few days before her trial. They tried to trap her with questions about royalty and republic, so that she would declare she was a royalist. She never said so, replying that all that mattered for her was the happiness of her son and of the French people, with or without a king.

When they told her that she and her husband would get back on the throne at any cost, even speading the blood of the patriots, she quietly replied : "We did not have to get back on the throne, we were on it". How clever and witty !

9
French Royals / Re: Queen Marie Antoinette
« on: November 13, 2007, 11:49:07 AM »
All those memoires are suspicuous because their authors tried to appear as royalist as they could, afterwards, even Rosalie Lamorliere's narrative must be read cautiously. However, I think that Madame Bault's testimony is quite interesting. I also love Chaveau Lagarde's notes on Marie Antoinette's behaviour during her trial. How clever and sensible she was when summarising the dépositions and discussing them with her lawyers !

You can find Marie Antoinette's trial here :
http://www.royet.org/nea1789-1794/archives/journal_tribunaux/tr_proces_marie-antoinette.htm

It is in French. I don't know where to find some translation of it...

10
French Royals / Re: Queen Marie Antoinette
« on: November 12, 2007, 06:38:12 AM »
That's the point of Chantal Thomas' sutdy. You have to draw a line between the real Marie Antoinette and her paper caricature. Unfortunately, these propaganda campaigns were very cleverly made. So that the French people eventually believed that the queen was as shown on those papers. This was a way to attack the monarchy through his weakest link, the Autrian woman but this awful alter ego really led poor Marie Antoinette to the guillotine. Remember her trial ! They accused her of incest for political reasons, a terrible, a montruous accusation for a mother ! Although, they did it. And this accusation was possible only because of those pamphlets and caricatures, that already showed a monstruous image of Marie Antoinette for long. We can say that this accusion of incest proves how much these propaganda campaigns were efficient. Alas !

11
French Royals / Re: Queen Marie Antoinette
« on: November 11, 2007, 02:44:47 AM »
You can find pamphlets in Chantal Thomas' "Wicked Queen".

For caricatures, maybe you'll find some more here :
http://maria-antonia.justgoo.com/les-portraits-f22/estampes-t95-15.htm

12
French Royals / Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« on: November 06, 2007, 10:50:25 AM »
You can't compare speculations about an historical character to this scientific theory of evolution, can you ?

13
French Royals / Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« on: November 02, 2007, 04:05:53 AM »
Quote
he was truly King Louis's son and not Axel Von Fersen's son and so on
Of course he was ! About that I have not a single doubt !

14
French Royals / Re: Louis XVII - Did he die in the Tower?
« on: November 01, 2007, 04:13:47 PM »
So you look like Marie Antoinette, dear Carol Jean ? Could you post pictures of you, so that we could compare ?

15
French Royals / Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
« on: October 30, 2007, 01:28:38 PM »
Thank you so much, Imperial Opal ! I am very happy to be back !

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