Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - Превед

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 86
BTW I take the term Император-Родоначальник - Emperor-Progenitor as meaning the Emperor founding a new dynasty through the female line (and not the original legislator Paul I) and articles 30-32 as meaning that even if Alexey died before NII, any daughters or female-line grandsons he had would succeeded before Olga and the rest of their aunts and their descendants. But a daughter of Olga would succeed before a son of her sisters.

30. When the last male issue of the Emperor's sons is extinct, succession remains in the same branch, but in the female issue of the last reigning Emperor, as being nearest to the Throne, and therein it follows the same order, with preference to a male over the female person; but the female person from whom this right directly proceeds never loses this right.

This confuses me because we know Michael was behind Alexei, but it says here that if the Emperor's sons died before they had any issue (in this case, just Alexei) then it goes to the nearest female branch of the last reigning Emperor. Then when the female branches are extinct, then it goes to the Emperor-Progenitor's eldest son or Michael. So, in actuality, Olga was after Alexei not Michael.

With the extinction of this branch the succession passes to the female issue of the branch of the eldest son of the Emperor-Progenitor, wherein the nearest relative of the last reigning Emperor in the branch of this son succeeds, the eldest in this descending line, or if unavailable, in a collateral line, and if this relative is lacking, then the male or female person who takes her place by substitution, with preference, as above, for a male over a female person.


This confused me too when I looked it up. But I have never read anything (in the 15 years I've taken an interest in the subject) that the succession to the Russian Throne during the last two centuries was anything but semi-Salic or agnatic-cognatic primogeniture - that is: allowing women and their lines to succeed only at the extinction of all the male descendants in the male line. I think it all hangs on how widely you define the phrase "последнее мужеское поколение сыновей Императора" = "the last male issue of the Emperor's sons". Evidently it is to be understood as "any male male-line descendant of any emperor" and not just the sons of the last emperor's sons.

It is perhaps due to a faulty translation. As you might know Russian has no definite article, so the Russian original says literally "last male issue of sons of Emperor" and not "of the Emperor". This also fits with article 27, stating the principle of semi-Salic agnatic-cognatic succession:
Both sexes have the right of succession to the Throne; but this right belongs by preference to the male sex according to the principle of primogeniture; with the extinction of the last male issue, succession to the Throne passes to the female issue by right of substitution.

Of course the English translation I cited does come from Maria Vladimirovna's home page and the male-preference primogeniture misunderstanding would fit her claims perfectly, but I very much doubt she undermines herself by messing with the correct reproduction or translation of the succession laws. Of course it can be controlled against other versions.

His daughter Olga or his sister Xenia?

Olga Nikolayevna. See Chapter Two of the Fundamental Laws of the Russian Empire:

Short lived indeed. Daughters aren't in the succession.

You mean in this scenario or according to the actual Pauline and Fundamental Laws of the Russian Empire? The latter were semi-Salic and allowed for female succession or succession through the female line (with the senior female descendant of the last reigning emperor expressly mentioned as keeping her right) if all agnatic dynasts were extinct.


.... a jurist born in 1982 as son of Putin's old Petersburg cronies....
.....son of one of.....

The one married to Shamalov, Yekaterina, has taken her maternal grandmother's patronymic and is called Yekaterina Vladimirovna Tikhonova.
.....patronymic as surname....

Since none of Putin's two daughters seem to want to play any prominent political role, a short-lived House of Putin would most likely be succeeded by a House of Shamalov, as his son-in-law Kirill Nikolayevich Shamalov, a jurist born in 1982 as son of Putin's old Petersburg cronies, became Russia's youngest billionaire thanks to his father's and father-in-law's influence, based on control of the banks Bank Rossiya (his father's) and Gazprombank and the petrochemical giant Sibur. A pure product of oligarchic nepotism.

The man looks like an anti-Semitic caricature (google him!), but despite its sound the surname Shamalov is apparently geuinely and ethnically Russian, but based on various Turkic first names allegedly given as mocking nicknames to children of small stature! So he is nearly the same age and of similar outlandish appearance and oligarchic tendencies as Grand Duke Georgiy Mikhailovich.

Putin's other son-in-law, the mysterious but apparently handsome Dutch businessman Jorrit Joost Faassen (born in 1980), is much less prominent and of course a foreigner, though no doubt Peter the Great would have smiled in his grave if a Dutchman was to sit on his throne!

BTW only one of Putin's daughters, Mariya, is called Putina. The one married to Shamalov, Yekaterina, has taken her maternal grandmother's patronymic and is called Yekaterina Vladimirovna Tikhonova.

Interesting about Haakon. I wonder why he proposed to send a warship rather than offer to receive the family at the Norwegian border (Norway has a land frontier with Russia - did it then?).

Norway did share a 196 km long border with the Russian Empire, but with no railway and hardly any road crossings. (I doubt there were roads at all on the Russian side leading to the then border crossing at Skafferhullet / Skafferholet between Borisoglebskiy on the Russian side and Kirkenes on the Norwegian side, a little to the west of the present border crossing at Storskog. Much of the border is in rivers and lakes and there was no effective border control untill after WW2.) Probably impenetrable with a motor vehicle in the snowy, rainy and thawing seasons. Sleighs (with horses or reindeers) could be an option during winter. Trains or roads through Finland or boat from Romanov-na-Murmane (now: Murmansk) to Norway would be more practical options.

From 1920 to WW2 Norway and the Soviet Union did not share a border, because the Pechenga area was Finnish. See BTW a unique pidgin language, Russenorsk (Russo-Norwegian), unique in giving equal status to the two source languages, was the result of nearly two centuries of trading across this border.

If it is true that Maud's family disapproved of her marriage to Haakon, I wonder why. They were first cousins, but that was not normally considered a problem by royalty, and he was younger than she was. However, as the second son of a future King of Denmark he was a good dynastic match (far better than the Duke of Fife, who married her sister!) and a thoroughly decent man.

Based on Tor Bomann-Larsen's multi-volume biography of the couple I'd say that the British RF's lack of enthusiasm (instead of active disapproval) of the marriage was due to:
- his mother and her purported negative influence on her children.
- his lack of independent means. (His annuity was very small compared to a British prince's and he literally owned nothing compared to a landed magnate like a British duke. He mostly had to survive on his officer's pay, although he had free room and board (later also lodgings in the Bredgade palais) at the expense of the Danish RF.
- the "fear" that he, as a penniless foreign prince, would look to his in-laws for lucrative employment in the British Navy.
- Queen Alexandra's general unwillingness to part with her daughters, especially if they married men who would struggle to provide them with the leisurely, wealthy lifestyle they were used to.

Is the delay perhaps due to God and Christ being too busy attending to the many weak, downtrodden and persecuted in today's Russia?

Servants, Friends and Retainers / Re: Pierre Gilliard
« on: October 08, 2017, 05:11:52 AM »
Having grown up in Switzerland, is it possible that Gilliard knew any German or Italian? I haven't seen or read anything that suggests so, but many Swiss people do speak French, German, and Italian.

Obviously he knew French, and I'm certain he knew Russian, but I'm not sure whether or not he knew English well either.

There were certainly plans and efforts to teach German in some or all high schools and some lower schools in his native Francophone Canton of Vaud in the last half of the 19th century. But whether it by that time had become mandatory in all high schools (as it appears to be today) I cannot say for sure. You can probably find the answer in this book:

Blaise Extermann: «Une langue étrangère et nationale. Histoire de l’enseignement de l’allemand en Suisse romande (1790-1940)», Editions Alphil, Presses universitaires suisses, 2013.

I would say it's quite likely that Gilliard, as a Vaudois born in 1879 (when German had enormous and rising prestige for the middle classes due to the unification and ensuing economic boom) and as a gifted and professional linguist knew German. It is much less likely that he knew Italian or English.

Imperial Claimants Post Here / Re: Samuel Petuhov
« on: October 05, 2017, 05:45:16 PM »
He has a YouTube personæ with a short, lovely video of Vologda, titled "Где я родился" - Where I was born:

BTW the name Petuhov / Petukhov / Петухов is derived from пету́х, cock, rooster.

Having Fun! / Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
« on: October 05, 2017, 12:55:31 PM »
Oh, and do note that the Hesse-Cassel-Rumpenheims' estate Panker in Holstein is only 20 km from Friederikenhof / Weissenhaus, where Franziska Schanzkowska worked and Bathildis's actual sons' extended in-laws, the Counts Platen-Hallermund, lived

The Final Chapter / Re: The Jewels
« on: October 04, 2017, 04:52:21 PM »
Read the book "The Greatest Heist" which deals with how the Bolsheviks sold all the loot they took and how it enabled them to stay in power.

You mean "History's Greatest Heist".

Having Fun! / Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
« on: October 04, 2017, 04:18:12 PM »
BTW a perfect (or disastrous!) match for melancholic Olga would have been the tragic Grand Duke Adolf Friedrich VI of Mecklenburg-Strelitz. Yes, 15 years her senior, but a fellow tortured soul and a bachelor untill his suicide. The same goes for his six years younger brother Duke Karl Borwin, if he didn't die in a duel 20 years old, also with regard to Tatiana.

And of course - in alternative history everybody would love to see one of OTMA married to one of the sons of Friedrich Karl of Hesse-Cassel-Rumpenheim, chosen King of Finland and thus one of OTMA as Crown Princess and eventually Queen of all Finland, Carelia and in particular Virolahti Bay.

Having Fun! / Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
« on: October 04, 2017, 03:54:39 PM »
I also have a list of possible husbands for Tatiana and Maria! Here is the lists!

Philipp Albrecht, Duke of Württemberg (George Philipp Albrecht Carl Maria Joseph Ludwig Hubertus Stanislaus Leopold Herzog von Württemberg, 14 November 1893–17 April 1975)
Surprisingly, that's it. Wikipedia can only take me so far.

As an author you are probably interested in knowing that he has already been used as a literary model already: He is the inspiration for Jewish Hans Schwarz's aristocratic high school infatuation Konradin von Hohenfels in Fred Uhlman's brilliant, haunting short autobiographical novel "Reunion" from 1971. (Read it! It is so sad and beautiful!)  In reality Uhlman and the Duke met as university students, but many assume the inspiration is Claus von Stauffenberg, because of how the novel ends. But Philipp Albrecht didn't die resisting Hitler's tyranny, although he was a passive opponent of the Nazis.

Interestingly the enormous social and racial divide between the Jew Hans Schwarz, with roots in an Eastern European ghetto or shtetl, is stressed in contrast with Konradin's mother, who is an unnamed anti-Semitic, icy Slavic princess. (Not a Romanov, but a Polish princess, whereas Philipp Albrecht's mother was in reality an Austrian archduchess -  the sister of Franz Ferdinand with his Slavic duchess.)

In the novel their adolescent romantic friendship develops in the classroom of an elite high school in Stuttgart where the wall shows the imprint of two pictures that used to hang there before the WW1: Those of Philipp Albrecht's cousin the King of Württemberg and Emperor Wilhelm II. A very poignant image of Weimar Germany!

Speaking of the characters haunting Weimar Germany and shadows of the past: Do you plan any references to the two sons Bathildis does not get as a fictional character - and their comital Platen-Hallermund brides, with their links to the estate in Holstein where Franziska Schanzkowska worked?

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 86