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Messages - PrincessSophie

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5{PrincessSophie link=topic=10082.msg285069#msg285069 date=1189918699]
I don't doubt your intentions, Bear.  I would have one comment - rather than a question about your statements.  Those seeking the truth, risk finding it!

Sophie

It seems you and others still don't grasp the concept that I don't care where the truth takes me.  Why don't I care?  I'm  not afraid  of what I'll find.

Now,  as  FA has suggested,  I'll  start a new thread about the train load of questions I have about the  latest graves  found on 29 July 2007.

AGRBear
[/quote]

Bear, no need to react in this way.  The truth can be a two edged sword for anyone seeking it - not just you. 

Sophie

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I don't doubt your intentions, Bear.  I would have one comment - rather than a question about your statements.  Those seeking the truth, risk finding it!

Sophie

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I thought FA directed us to play nice in here?

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Taking the very kindest viewpoint, Anderson simply was not who she claimed to be. Stronger viewpoints label her with less subtle language.

However, you cut a cake, it's still a cake!

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Jack Manahan was many things, but he was always a Virginian, never from North Carolina.

We will probably never know if AA was a deliberate fraud, mentally ill, or anything else. As someone who deals routinely with the mentally ill, I confess I bristle when I see any of you label her a fraud - because it's purely speculation on your part - and many here pronounce this as though it were a fact. My opinion, and we are all entitled to one, is that she was probably mentally ill. There is a mental illness that is clinically observable in which the patient imagines she/he comes from a royal or aristocratic background - and is not.

A little compassion would go a long way.

I confess, Lisa, that I too used to baulk when I saw the word fraud.  But even if she was mentally ill (which in a legal sense suggests diminished capacity), isn't the result the same?  She passed herself off as someone she was not and people were hurt by her actions.

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I understand what you mean Alixz. You are right no one is responsible for being ill I mean it was sad scenario she was in and everything I know that she should not be blamed for her illness and good thing someone rescue her from killing herself. But however she is not innocent but just sick but the part about her fraud ways is someone for herself to blame as becuase the lying and pretending was her fault. I understand that she was sick and everything but it just does not make sense to lie and pretend unless her illness gone too far.

Elizabeth~Princess, you are perfectly sweet but I'm not sure I agree.  Her suicide attempt was sad as was her mental illness but whoever prevented it inadvertently started an avalanche of deceit that may have been - at least in part - avoided in the event of her demise at that time. 

Sophie

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The real trajedy of this case for me is that the imposters did not substitute for the real thing at Ipatiev House (Дом Ипатьева) on July 16/17, 1918.

Sophie

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Well, some of those AA supporters are simply accusing the Russian authorities of  downright lieing and mis-information.  That is their blanket response.
 They are not about to accept any results of any tests, no matter what the outcome.  They did not accept the previous results, even though Dr. Maples said it was Anastasia who was missing, and the Russians said it was Maria.  Ultimately, it does not matter which GD was buried in which grave, as they both will be accounted for as suffering the same fate, no matter what any doubters may proclaim nor how loudly they proclaim it.

You are right, Robert.  There are those who make a profession out of conspiracy.  Everyone is lying etc.  But ask yourself this.  Why would the Russian Government want, or need, to lie about this?

Sophie

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Something just occured to me, which I, imho, found interesting.

Forever since we started the forum, and the first discussions about AA, all we ever heard about was ALL the "overwhelming" evidence that AA was ANR OTHER than the DNA.  There was "ear shape analysis", Language similarities, "regal behavior" etc etc. We kept hearing that same stuff over and over and over. "The NON DNA evidence is important. Don't exclude it." Plus, we kept hearing "DNA isn't the final answer. DNA is flawed. DNA is fallible."

WELL, now all it seems these EXACT SAME PEOPLE are saying : Well, the non-DNA evidence means NOTHING. Its premature to even consider it. All the following are meaningless to them,

1. Two bodies have been found. Two bodies were missing.
2.  A male of the correct age and female of the correct age were found.
3.  These two bodies were found 70 metres from the mass burial site.
4.  Yurovsky accurately described the exact location where the bodies were found.
5.  Nagant bullets were found with the remains, which EXACTLY match the same Nagant bullets from the mass burial site.
6.  Pieces of japanese jars containing japanese made sulfuric acid were found which EXACTLY match the pieces of similar jars found in the                  mass burial site
7.  Yurovsky et al all describe the procuring and use of this acid during the attempted burning and burial process.
8.  Large amounts of burnt material and ash were found at the same layer as the remains.  This is further consistent with all known accounts.
9.  A piece of clothing (called a dress fragment) was found.  From "Last Act of a Tragedy":
"G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers."


They say: "Its premature to say anything. We have to have DNA testing before we will believe these remains are Alexei and his sister ONLY when the DNA comes back will be consider it proof"...

Well, I just find it interesting that those people pick and choose their point of view. To support AA being ANR, it was ok to ignore or discount the DNA evidence, yet NOW, DNA is indeed the 100% answer. Shoe's on the other foot....

curiouso??

Yes, I agree.  It does seem hypocritical.  But on the other hand, if (and I should add, when) the DNA confirms the new bodies are their imperial highnesses, the proponents of Anna Anderson or Fransciska or whoever cannot then argue that the DNA is not conclusive.  You cannot have it both ways.  They have dug a hole for themselves, my friends.  One which you cannot climb out of!

Sophie

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The murders were carried out to ensure there was absolutely no possibility of going back to the old regime.

Exactly, Dmitri.  It is a mindset I struggle with (ie the end justifying the means) but I think that may be a topic for another thread.

My best wishes to you.
Sophie

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The point was they have not found any other bodies of anybody.  Aristocrats or otherwise.


Exactly. Thanks, Robert. In all those years of digging they've never found ANY other bodies or had any 'false alarms' (other than the one near the house, but not in the forest) So looks like those woods are not the 'dumping ground' or as 'full of bodies' as some claim.  But some will cling to any hope so they can continue to pull for the claimants.

Thanks Annie.  For me, this is not about providing support for the claimants.  I would hope that anyone who performed such an indecent act on the Romanovs and on the world, more broadly, would be brought to account and punished accordingly.  And if not them, then the people who facilitated the fraud.  But finding the bodies of other aristocrats in those woods does not obliterate the fact that the Romanovs were buried there.  It just proves the bloody mindedness of the Bolsheviks to destroy the Russian monarchy and its supporters.

Sophie

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Imperial childrens' remains discovered FAQs...

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,10115.0.html

Thanks, that's a great thread!

People who don't want to stop believing in claimaints have been saying 'those woods were full of victims they could be anybody', but isn't it interesting that in all those years of digging, not ONE other body of anyone from the revolution, Stalinist purge, or even a local serial killer has EVER been found out there?! Only the Imperial family. That's another thing that should tell everyone these sites are connected.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here but just because they haven't found bodies belonging to aristocrats other than the imperial family, doesn't mean they are not there.  As the FA has made the point, it takes a long time to escavate those woods!  And just before you get your claws out, I personally believe that they have now found all the Romanovs but that doesn't preclude the discovery of other bodies.

The biggest mystery for me is now: why hasn't Peter Kurth responded to this news?  I've been all over his website and nothing, nada, niete!

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  My question is:  given the general location was known, why now, after all this time?

Thanks
Sophie

Sigh, this needs to be answered once and for all and stickied! Okay one more time- NEW WRITINGS FROM YUROVSKY RECENTLY BECAME AVAILABLE THAT WERE NOT SEEN BEFORE!! They were much more specific as to the exact location. Please go read the "Ekaterinburg Press Release" thread in "Forum announcements", it explains everything. Another big reason nobody found them in all those years is  that there really wasn't much in the grave when you look at the pictures. It wasn't like digging up 9 mostly whole skeletons like the first time. These were only small pieces of bones and other materials. It was like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Annie,
I just read the press release and didn't see anything about a new note from Yurovsky. What did I miss?
Lexi

Me neither, Lexi.  But I haven't discounted the possibility entirely!  Nor does it change the bottomline!

Sophie

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Sophie,

I think you also forget that in Siberia, the time available to conduct a proper excavation when weather permits is something less than four full months of the year, approximately May thru September.  They can excavate perhaps 50 square metres per season.  The entire area, say only 100 metres per side = 10,000 square metres of possible digging space.  At 50 sq. m. per year, thats TWENTY YEARS of work.



Thank you, Forum Administrator.  I really appreciate your efforts to answer my questions!

Sophie

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I should add that the absence of two bodies from the mass grave in Ekaterinburg containing Russia's last Imperial Family does not validate a survival hypothesis for either the Grand Duchess Anastasia (alternatively Maria) or Tsarevich Alexis. The solution to the mystery is much simpler. There is little reason to doubt chief executioner Yakov Yurovsky's account of the disposal of the Imperial Family's remains, as his report detailing their disposal led investigators a generation later directly to the site of the mass grave, and he never attempted to hide anything. It's simply logical that when the funeral pyre had been lit using gasoline as an accelerant, Yurovsky would have started with the two smallest bodies to see how long it took to reduce them to ash. However, time being of the essence and damp conditions hindering the process, a communal grave was dug for the other victims, Alexis and Anastasia's smoldering, charred remains consigned to a separate grave by their pyre as detailed by Yurovsky. There were simply too many witnesses to the murder and disposal of the Imperial Family, for a cover-up to have occurred or been sustained 80 odd years. Forensic and historic records continue to uphold the accuracy of Yakov Yurovsky's account of those hideous events in 1918 which still haunt the world.

Sophie

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