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Messages - billmcl2

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The Final Chapter / Re: The Missing Bodies
« on: November 27, 2011, 10:59:25 PM »
billmcl2, thank you for this information. IMO, it doesn't really matter who it was with Alexei, just that they are all accounted for and are at peace now.
(However, if I had to choose, I would agree with the Americans that it was Anastasia. Just because their evidence seems to be the most convincing.)

You're most welcome - I'm glad it was helpful.

I understand the feeling that the family should be left at peace but I guess I'm still too intrigued by the mysteries to let go of them!

The Final Chapter / Re: The Missing Bodies
« on: November 27, 2011, 12:50:49 AM »
No one has ever "identified" the female remains specifically as such is in fact impossible.  As stated, all that can be shown is that the female has a 100% sibling relationship to the male, and both have 100% parental relationship to Nicholas and Alexandra.  All children are accounted for, but to specifically identify Anastasia and Maria to one set of remains or the other is simply not possible.

This is contradicted by the insistence of the Russians that Maria's remains were missing from the mass grave and by the insistence of the Americans that it was Anastasia's remains that were missing. Apparently both groups of scientists believed that they could conclusively identify the skeletal remains.

Chapters 18-20 of FOTR extensively discuss the unearthing, examination, and identification of the remains. According to K&W, Falsetti and France immediately recognized that the remains designated by the Russians as Anastasia's (based solely on the imperfect technique of photographic superimposition) in fact belonged to an older female, based on the following factors (quoted from p. 455, FOTR):

1)  height (later photographs clearly show that Anastasia was shorter than her sisters)
2)  lack of signs of immaturity in the vertebrae and bones
3)  age and development of the pelvic rim
4)  age and development of the clavicles
5)  age and development of the dental roots

After measuring these parameters in each skeleton, the Americans established that the remains of Maria (skeleton #5), Tatiana (#6), and Olga (#3) were all present in the mass grave because the bones displayed a clear developmental progression from 19 years to 21 years to 22 years of age. This confirmed Maples' conclusions from an earlier examination.

Contrary to assertions made in this thread, Forensic Anthropologists can actually determine the age of a skeleton fairly precisely - especially the skeleton of a child or adolescent who was still growing. In addition to the 5 factors listed above, modern FAs would also examine the closure of cranial sutures, the development of molars and wisdom teeth, and the extent of epiphysial fusion - the closing of the "growth plates" at the ends of the long bones and clavicles. All of these factors exhibit clearly identifiable progressions within limited age ranges. FAs can cross-reference the age ranges for each factor to narrow down the age of the skeleton quite precisely. It would be relatively simple to put a group of skeletons like those in the mass grave in chronological order by age once these factors had been measured. (The age of older skeletons is determined by the degree of deterioration in the bones rather than by growth and development, and is somewhat less precise.)

The essential point is that there are clear developmental differences between the bones, skull, and teeth of a 17-year old and those of a 19-year old. This is how France and Falsetti recognized immediately that skeleton #6 could NOT be Anastasia. There may not have been enough bones in the second grave to clearly determine the age of the female skeleton but it is virtually certain that Anastasia's bones were NOT found in the first (mass) grave. Therefore, the female remains in the second grave had to belong to her since the DNA tests confirmed the presence of two siblings. The following website is a good place to start if you're interested in this topic:

I respect the opinion expressed by AP, Tim, and others that it doesn't matter which remains are in which grave since they are all accounted for. What fascinates me is the determination of the Russian scientists to "prove" that Anastasia's remains were present in the mass grave, despite the insistence of the more qualified American scientists that they were missing. I wonder if it was simply a case of US/Soviet rivalry that the Russians would not back down from or whether they were following the dictates of their political masters to make sure that no living "Anastasia" could ever claim a Romanov inheritance. It's one of the remaining unsolved mysteries of the Romanov executions. I also find it interesting that Falsetti's world-class expertise earned him an invitation back to Siberia to examine the remains found in the second grave (see the National Geographic documentary Finding Anastasia), even though many of his conclusions about the skeletons in the mass grave were flatly rejected by most of the Russian scientists.

Romanov and Imperial Russia Links / Re: Frozen Tears
« on: May 31, 2011, 12:35:35 AM »
Sorry to be working backwards on this thread. (I'll never get through all the interesting topics on the AP site!)

Re: Name Change - Please don't change Frozen Tears. Your title is PERFECT - sad, beautiful, and evocative of so much of Russian history. I can't imagine how it could be improved!

Romanov and Imperial Russia Links / Re: Frozen Tears
« on: May 30, 2011, 09:54:05 PM »
Updated the site today!
There are new items under the audio category!
Also, as a little surprise there is an upcoming interview with our very own Sarushka!

This is a wonderful site, Laura! Thank you for all your hard work!

a short tribute to OTMA

Very well done! Many of the photos are new to me.

The Final Chapter / Re: Ipatiev house photos (interior & exterior)
« on: May 29, 2011, 11:13:32 PM »
There's also a photo of the Tobolsk drawing room at 1:56, which is presented as though it's from the Ipatiev house.

I didn't notice that. Thanks, Sarushka!

The Final Chapter / Re: Ipatiev house photos (interior & exterior)
« on: May 28, 2011, 11:39:18 PM »
Re: #122 by tom romanov:

The documentary The Romanovs (Australian Broadcasting Company) posted at has several photos and film clips of the IH before and after 1918. Starting at 15:12 of Clip Two, there are several colour shots of different parts of the house including a brief glimpse of the interior of a room that was used by an art club. I'm not sure which room this is but I think it's an upstairs room because of window view.

My apologies if this has already been posted. I thought the creator did an excellent job of matching visuals to Boney M's Rasputin. There is a cartoon titled Rasputin at the doctor's at the 3:46 mark that I thought was very funny. Does anyone know the origin of this cartoon?

The Final Chapter / Re: The Missing Bodies
« on: May 25, 2011, 11:05:32 PM »
Here is a map showing areas around Archangle where the Allies [British, American, Canadian, Italian, Serb and Finnish troops] were in 1918-1919:

Have you ever come across any support for the theory that a "safe house" was established in Murmansk for the IF from which they could have been safely evacuated on British warship?

If I remember rightly, someone found documents in the Hudson Bay Company archives that recorded the purchase of this house but did not clarify why the house had been purchased.

The Final Chapter / Re: Ipatiev house photos (interior & exterior)
« on: May 25, 2011, 10:19:21 PM »
However, I'm beginning to wonder if this really is the Ipatiev house. The room seems disproportionately large, with a very high ceiling. The chandelier is much larger and more elaborate than the other light fixtures in the house. The trim around the ceiling is also different -- all the other rooms I've seen have deep wood mouldings, but this room appears to have plasterwork instead. Also, all the other doorways I have photos of are arched, while this room's doorway is square.

This site has interactive floor plans of the Ipatiev House. Moving your cursor over the numbered rooms generates photos of the interior of each room. None of them appears to match this photo.

The Alexander Palace / Re: Exhibition in the children's rooms!
« on: May 18, 2011, 10:59:43 AM »
I sure hope some of our members will be able to see this in person:

Here's another website with info on the exhibit:

I haven't explored this site yet but it appears to have a lot of interesting links.

BTW, is 'Little Nell' really PK? Poor PK, he has finally completely lost it if that's the case...

It wouldn't surprise me. Prince Romanov (Prince Wingnut, as I call him) had links to some of Kurth's recent writing on his YouTube channel but has since removed them. If PK is endorsing this crackpot then he really has lost it!

The K&W article is a fascinating and EXTREMELY detailed discussion of possible motives behind the removal of the IF to Tobolsk and makes clear that Kerensky DID have plans AT THAT TIME to help the Romanovs leave Russia. I chose 2 quotes from the article that particularly related to Holly's question. Here are a few more:

From the very beginning of his (Kerensky's) tenure in the Provisional Government, he had made it quite clear that he intended to send the Romanovs out of Russia, if not to England, then perhaps to another friendly country where they might live comfortably and securely.

We know, from Kerensky’s public statements, the written records of Government meetings, the memoirs of those imprisoned with the Imperial family at Tsarskoye Selo, and from Kerensky’s own books, that his main goal was to get the Romanovs safely out of the country. He had announced as much within the first week of the Revolution, and pressed hard to win them asylum in England.

When the Imperial Family left Tsarskoye Selo for Siberia, their train carried a placard reading “Japanese Red Cross Mission” and bore two Japanese flags. Such a train could pass through Siberia and on into Manchuria without any great risk.58 It is entirely possible that Kerensky intended to move the Imperial Family out of the country on this train, but that circumstances forced an end to the plan.

Cables flew back and forth between railway stations and local Soviets spread along the length of the Trans-Siberian, warning that while papers were reporting the transfer to Tobolsk, “rumor is rampant that the train is actually on its way to Novo-Nikolaievsk and to Harbin,” where the prisoners could presumably flee the country. These rumors, the Ekaterinburg Soviet noted in a cable of 5/18 August, 1917, were “provoking ferment” among the population in Siberia; they advised that cables had been sent to railway stations and Soviets further East, ordering that the train be stopped until the situation was clarified.64

Thus, before the train reached Tyumen -- the river port that served as a staging post for boat journeys to Tobolsk -- all of Russia knew of both Kerensky’s announced decision to send the prisoners to the latter town, and of the rumors that they were actually being sent out of the country. Soviets along the length of the Trans-Siberian had been warned to halt the train, and numerous local Bolshevik organizations sent angry cables demanding explanations and calling for action. Stopped twice by hostile railway workers, the train continued into the Urals with its precious cargo made known to all.

Did Kerensky have plans of taking them out of the country but they were halted unexpectedly?

The following quotes are from King & Wilson's article The Departure Of The Imperial Family From Tsarskoye Selo posted at:

The entire article is a long but very interesting read.

Speaking of Tobolsk, Kerensky wrote: “From there, we thought, it would be possible in the spring of 1918 to send them abroad after all, via Japan.”52 Clearly, then he wished to safely see the Romanovs out of Russia, in accordance with everything he had previously stated. This idea is not only reinforced but amplified in remarks Kerensky made a decade before his death. In exile in the United States, he often lectured at New York’s Columbia University, where he was asked about the Revolution and his relations with the Romanovs. In the early 1960s, while discussing the situation with a group of students, the former leader of the Provisional Government added something to his story of the Romanovs’ Siberian exile that possibly explains his decision. It was his never intention, Kerensky explained, that Tobolsk would be a place of exile. His prime goal was to get them away from Petrograd, and out of the reach of revolutionaries. It was his wish to send the Romanovs out of Russia by the Trans-Siberian Railway, to Vladivostock, then to Japan where, presumably, they would be free to select their own country of residence. In this conversation, his comments intimated that Tobolsk was to be nothing more than a convenient stopping point mid-way along the route, the Governor’s House a temporary resting place and not a final destination.53

Under the circumstances, it is at least possible that the when the Romanovs boarded the train at Tsarskoye Selo, they were in fact unknowingly leaving on a journey that would carry them out of the country and out of harm’s way. Tobolsk -- made known through the actions of Makarov and Vershinin; the revelations to Buchanan; and other selective leaks -- may have been nothing more than a piece of propaganda, conceived to throw Kerensky’s enemies off the scent while he arranged for the Imperial Family’s safety. But when local Soviets in the Urals began to interfere with the plan, sending warning cables out to organizations down the length of the Trans-Siberian, the plan had to be changed. The prisoners, through the ill-luck of discovery, were sent to Tobolsk; this in and of itself aroused no suspicion, as it had always been the announced destination. Had the operation succeeded, Kerensky could have announced its completion once the prisoners left the Empire; when it failed, and they arrived in Tobolsk, he simply claimed that Tobolsk had always been the intended -- if temporary -- destination. In view of Kerensky's attitude and the fact that when the Imperial Family arrived in Tobolsk they had to wait a week while the Governor's Mansion was fitted up, this explanation, admittedly speculative, is entirely possible.

The Myth and Legends of Survivors / Re: New One
« on: April 04, 2011, 05:17:12 PM » Hes back with his utterly ridiculous videos.

More blurred photos. Now calling himself "Prince Romanov". A list of "friends" on his Channel that he has mostly invited himself.

If it wasn't so disrespectful to real historians and to the victims of the execution, I would almost feel sorry for someone that desperate for status and attention.

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