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Messages - Mexjames

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1
Nicholas II / Re: Nicholas II and Vladimir Lenin
« on: December 30, 2009, 02:23:22 PM »
At the time, Lenin wasn't that strong in power so as to risk such a move.

Let's see:

1. Shipping the Tsar back to Moscow (a city that was carefully avoided on the IF's journey east) would have posed several problems for Lenin:
    a. He must have provided safety and security for the Tsar and his entourage.
    b. At least, there would have been a public demand to have the Emperor stand trial.
    c. At the most, there must have been Imperial sympathizers there who would demand, possibly even with the use of force, that the Emperor be put back on the throne.
   d. Most likely, there would have been pressure, both from within Russia and from abroad, to let the Tsar go into exile, unharmed.

2. Keeping the Tsar in Yekaterinburg meant:
   a. That the Tsar himself was out of the spotlight, his whereabouts unknown to must, so Lenin had complete control over the information pertaining the Emperor: where he was, with whom, etc. In other words, the Tsar and his family were hostages.
   b. Deniability. If things went wrong, Lenin could always deny having any knowledge of the Emperor's whereabouts, blaming the local soviet for any problem.
   c. Any rescue attempts would be difficult, given the low density of the population, access to weapons, and the sheer distance of Yekaterinburg to other cities where the Emperor could have had more of a following.



2
The Final Chapter / Re: Ipatiev House - demolition dates question
« on: December 30, 2009, 01:52:42 PM »
I'm aware of the difference between both Russian Orthodox Churches, although I didn't know that the rift was still that wide, and I didn't know either that the Cathedral was controlled by the Moscow Patriarchate.

The important things are:

1. The Communist authorities tried to erase the memory of the site of the Romanov murders. It was a nice try, and the result was they made room for a much larger, much more notorious building to remember the Imperial Family.

2. A place of worship was built in that place. For all intents and purposes, there might have been a whole range of options, from building a museum all the way to building the present Cathedral, and why not, possibly rebuilding the house itself. Quite wisely, someone decided to build a church there, and this also symbolizes the triumph of religion over atheism, of faith over a system that denigrated humanity, and that's what counts.

I really hope that in this 2010 that's literally around the corner, Russia will finalize what it must regarding this saddest chapter in her history, and bury the remains of the Heir and his sister with their parents, allowing those poor souls to finally rest in peace.


3
The Final Chapter / Re: Ipatiev House - demolition dates question
« on: December 30, 2009, 10:12:22 AM »
I'd like to speculate, if I may, that the Politburo knew or suspected that there would be a ceremony there, commemorating the assassination of the Emperor and his family, and consequently, decided that the best way to avoid it, was to demolish the house. Back in 1977 there were probably not too many followers of the IF, but still there might have been plenty of people who might have remembered the event from their childhood, and might have attended some sort of ceremony.

I think the biggest slap in the face against bolshevism, was the church that was built on the site of the house.

4
The Final Chapter / Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« on: December 23, 2009, 02:03:50 PM »



I agree. ;) But I do not think Russia is a menace to the rest of the world.





I didn't mean to offend. I wrote that I hope that Russia will be great again, constructively, and not destructively, as when it was during the Soviet Union era, when the Rodina was a threat to the world, as seen from my Western eyes.



5
The Final Chapter / Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« on: December 23, 2009, 02:01:25 PM »
...In parallel, there is little difference between the murders of the IF and Rasputin's. In both cases ... evidence destroyed or tampered with, ....

Could you please explain more clearly what you mean by "evidence destroyed or tampered with" in the case of Rasputin's murder?

Yes. IMHO the first piece of evidence was Rasputin's body, which was thrown into the river, probably in the hopes that it would never be found. Also, it seems that Prince Youssupov noticed that there was blood someplace in his palace, and had a dog shot to confuse the police.

Except the police investigators were not confused as to what happened at the Yusupov Palace. Do not forget that human blood was taken from the crime scene and analyzed. It was positive for human blood. Likewise, despite what Felix Yusupov asserted, there far too much spent blood, which could not possibly have originated from one small dog.


... In both cases, for State reasons, the murderers never went to trial! Rasputin's murderers were sent to exile ...

Don't forget that Purishkevich was not banished. He continued to enjoy his lifestyle as if nothing had happened.

In the Rasputin murder case - Nikolai II granted "mercy" to two of the noble participants rather than allow the Department of Justice to proceed with a public trial.

In Yurovsky's case Lenin sanctioned the execution of the Imperial Family. Yurovsky and his execution squad performed their special duty and were paid extra rubles for that task.

Margarita


I stand corrected, many thanks!

Being paid "extra rubles" for killing people. What a shameful way to start a "new", "egalitarian" society.




6
The Final Chapter / Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« on: December 18, 2009, 05:36:21 PM »


]I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they all were drunk - they probably needed the courage to kill six women, a sick boy, his father, who wasn't physically impressive as his own father had been, and a doctor who, for all we know, was on the chubby side of things.
It was "hard" blosheviks, besides Yurovksiy has not any "innocent" boy. "Latvians" fought in the war and war destroys of man. Yurovskiy, Yermakov and Medvedev hated Tsar an his family, they have not any problems with it. Even they pique oneself on it. And do not forget bolsheviks send to shoot people who have not any problem with it.

The decision had been made, and Sverdlov an his colleagues didn't have enough time to plan, so they had to kill them quickly, very early in the morning, when most people would be asleep and wouldn't here the shots, and somebody did, they would have sounded as coming from far away because the murder took place in a cellar. Then the corpses would be driven out of the city, and disposed of. But clearly this didn't quite work because the bodies and the evidence that remained, weren't fully destroyed, plus the grave was shallow.
I do not agree. After bolshevik revolution it was clearly Tsar and his family will die. It was only one question. When. Besides, if verdict was so late, they have enough time to take a place. Czech legions was far from Yekaterinburg not near. And if not they could took away in the direct of European part of Russia, for example Perm.






[/quote]
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I think you are right, and in any case, I for one am glad that the Russian authorities finally decided to accept the fact that the Emperor and his family died as victims of political persecution.

The IF and even the Emperor, for all his mistakes, didn't deserve to be killed in cold blood.  The effort that Russia and the Russians are making to come to terms with this terrible part of their history, is commendable. This is an important part of world history, not just Russia's, and I have the feeling that there's a learning process going on over there now, and I truly hope that the lessons of 300-plus years of the Empire and the 70 years of Communism, will make Russia great again, but in a different way, in a constructive way, and not to be perceived again as a menace to the rest of the world.

In the meantime, for Lisa, Bob, our moderators and each and every member of this distinguished forum, my best wishes for all of you. I hope that 2010 will be the best-ever year for everybody!

7
The Final Chapter / Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« on: December 18, 2009, 01:25:22 PM »
Wox24, you knowledge about the Russian History are a little bit strange for me.
I prefer not to discuss in a such strange discussions, because I'm very patient, but I need to say,

First.
Lenin - marionette ?!?! Marionette in whose hands ??
I think you have a very specific knowledge.
One of the most charismatic leaders in the world and a man, who had a total control of the Romanov's destiny from start till the end.
Total control.

Second.
Where did you learned about Trotsky and Romanov's destiny.
Absolutely different things, because Trotsky doesn't related to this story in any ways.
Moreover, he, as a foreign Minister of the RSFSR at that time, as I know at certain stages was against their execution.

I think that we shouldn't post that kind of a strange information on a history forum.
This is my opinion.



Lenin was far from being a marionette or puppet, I think history has made that clear.  There's doubt about his death, which might not have been attributable to natural causes only. Puppets don't have political enemies, and Lenin had plenty.

I live in Mexico City, and Trotsky's house is now a museum open for visits. Personally, I have never been there, I see no use in going to visit the house of a would-be tyrant and murderer.

8
The Final Chapter / Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« on: December 18, 2009, 01:21:24 PM »

The Jewish community in the Russian Empire numbered several million people, so more than a community, it was a minority. 

Printing and distributing such an image in Imperial Russia, would have been a serious, punishable offense.  Jews had enough trouble being Jews there, so I doubt very much that any Jew in his or her sound mind, would risk being found in the possession of a picture like this.

The picture has also English and Hebrew text, which make me think it isn't of Russian origin. And the face on the rooster figure could or couldn't be that of the Emperor, as the picture isn't clear and I can't seem to find it.

Also, the site to which one is directed after clicking on the picture is "Radikal Foto". Need anything more be said about it?

Now, getting back to the core of the thread, I think we ought to settle this issue.

They were murdered:

1. There was no trial (maybe under the circumstances, it was too much to ask probably, and who knows if Russian law at the time gave them that right).
2. There is evidence that orders were given to the effect of killing the IF.
3. The IF were prisoners by force, in a facility from which they couldn't escape, and in which they couldn't defend themselves. For all intents and purposes they were kidnapped.
4. The IF were led to a room in the basement of the house, from which there was no escape.
5. The IF were read a "sentence" that stated their destiny, and were fired on, at point-blank range, without giving them any chance to do anything. We know that the Emperor's last word was "Shto?".
6. The bodies of the IF and their retainers were immediately taken, in secrecy, to a remote area, where they'd be destroyed. Murderers need to conceal all evidence, while executioners need to show the dead bodies of their victims.
7. The reports of the burial places of the bodies of the IF and their retainers were false, that is, evidence was not only destroyed at least in part, but what remained was hidden.

Only murderers act this way. 

In parallel, there is little difference between the murders of the IF and Rasputin's. In both cases there was no trial, the victims were fooled, making them think that they were in for something else, both were killed in cellars, evidence destroyed or tampered with, and the bodies were disposed of as well.


Probably you do not know a system of samizdat, what was very popular in USSR but other socialistic countries too. ;) Besides,  I do not know "all" Jews as well. ;) Next, site www.radikal.ru is similar site as www.imageshack.us. By the way, it was not a rooter but only a bird, my mistake .
I know "samizdat", but still the card or picture might not have been of Jewish origin. Clearly, there were a number of Jews implicated in revolutionary activities during the Empire, and most chose not to follow their religion any longer, and consequently, in the eyes of the traditional minded folks, they were seen as renegades. In any case, the text of the card in Hebrew and English, not Russian, so it's not likely that the card or picture was printed in Russia.

I think it was an execution. It definitely was.

1/. Any bolshevik would not kill anyone without agreement of "higher" power because one would dead. And Yurovskiy, Jermakov, Medvedev have not any problems with bolshevik gouvernment. Lenin was in charge, so he was ultimately responsible for this crime (and too many others).

2/. Tsar was important person, so about his destiny decided Sverdlov, Lenin and Trotsky. So, Tsars kill was verdict of Lenin, Trotsky and especially Sverdlov. I agree partly with you; Trotsky's role here isn't clear to me. Sverdlov was the actual murderer, and Lenin decided. Consequently, there was no veredict, because a veredict implies a trial. Murdering the Emperor and his family was a decision made by Lenin.

3/. Tsars kill should be secret.

I am suprised some things, what are inthe  official version:

1/. The snipers was drunk, but when someone want to kill he should be ready psychical and physical. I would expecting Yurovskiy take alcohol or defends it at least. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they all were drunk - they probably needed the courage to kill six women, a sick boy, his father, who wasn't physically impressive as his own father had been, and a doctor who, for all we know, was on the chubby side of things.

2/. A place for bodies was not ready. They could take them far from Yekaterinburg. The decision had been made, and Sverdlov an his colleagues didn't have enough time to plan, so they had to kill them quickly, very early in the morning, when most people would be asleep and wouldn't here the shots, and somebody did, they would have sounded as coming from far away because the murder took place in a cellar. Then the corpses would be driven out of the city, and disposed of. But clearly this didn't quite work because the bodies and the evidence that remained, weren't fully destroyed, plus the grave was shallow.

3/. If Czechoslovaks legions were next Yekaterinburg, why the kill was maked early? Plus bolsheviks cart about the bodies. I'm not sure I understand you here - sorry.




9
The Final Chapter / Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« on: December 18, 2009, 01:01:00 PM »
...In parallel, there is little difference between the murders of the IF and Rasputin's. In both cases ... evidence destroyed or tampered with, ....

Could you please explain more clearly what you mean by "evidence destroyed or tampered with" in the case of Rasputin's murder?

Thanks in advance,

Margarita

Yes. IMHO the first piece of evidence was Rasputin's body, which was thrown into the river, probably in the hopes that it would never be found. Also, it seems that Prince Youssupov noticed that there was blood someplace in his palace, and had a dog shot to confuse the police.

Prince Youssupov was probably a hero to most Russians when it was learned that he killed Rasputin; a trial would have cleared him. The murderers of the IF might have been heroes to a number of Russians as well.  In both cases, for State reasons, the murderers never went to trial! Rasputin's murderers were sent to exile, and Mr. Sverdlov not only got away with murder, as we say in English, he even had a city named after him!

10
The Final Chapter / Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« on: December 17, 2009, 05:33:27 PM »
This is photo what was popular in the Jewish community:



BTW: The rooster is Jewish sacrificial animal.
The Jewish community in the Russian Empire numbered several million people, so more than a community, it was a minority. 

Printing and distributing such an image in Imperial Russia, would have been a serious, punishable offense.  Jews had enough trouble being Jews there, so I doubt very much that any Jew in his or her sound mind, would risk being found in the possession of a picture like this.

The picture has also English and Hebrew text, which make me think it isn't of Russian origin. And the face on the rooster figure could or couldn't be that of the Emperor, as the picture isn't clear and I can't seem to find it.

Also, the site to which one is directed after clicking on the picture is "Radikal Foto". Need anything more be said about it?

Now, getting back to the core of the thread, I think we ought to settle this issue.

They were murdered:

1. There was no trial (maybe under the circumstances, it was too much to ask probably, and who knows if Russian law at the time gave them that right).
2. There is evidence that orders were given to the effect of killing the IF.
3. The IF were prisoners by force, in a facility from which they couldn't escape, and in which they couldn't defend themselves. For all intents and purposes they were kidnapped.
4. The IF were led to a room in the basement of the house, from which there was no escape.
5. The IF were read a "sentence" that stated their destiny, and were fired on, at point-blank range, without giving them any chance to do anything. We know that the Emperor's last word was "Shto?".
6. The bodies of the IF and their retainers were immediately taken, in secrecy, to a remote area, where they'd be destroyed. Murderers need to conceal all evidence, while executioners need to show the dead bodies of their victims.
7. The reports of the burial places of the bodies of the IF and their retainers were false, that is, evidence was not only destroyed at least in part, but what remained was hidden.

Only murderers act this way. 

In parallel, there is little difference between the murders of the IF and Rasputin's. In both cases there was no trial, the victims were fooled, making them think that they were in for something else, both were killed in cellars, evidence destroyed or tampered with, and the bodies were disposed of as well.

11
The Final Chapter / Re: What do you think would have been the RIGHT end?
« on: September 03, 2009, 04:28:32 PM »
I think that the best answer to your question, Gioia, came not too long ago, when the Russian court finally determined that the Imperial Family were the victims of political persecution, and died as such.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3115053/Russia-exonerates-Tsar-Nicholas-II.html

This is a big triumph mostly for Russia, as a nation, and not only for the Romanov family. 

12
The Final Chapter / Re: What do you think would have been the RIGHT end?
« on: August 28, 2009, 01:45:35 PM »
In my opinion, any end other than the fate they met, would have been desirable. Because of what my own family went through in Russia, much of it courtesy of the Emperor (willingly or not, with or without knowledge), I don't really hold him or his ancestors in high esteem, but even so I, and many like me, would have preferred to avoid the revolution and all its bloodshed. 

I think that in this forum, and with all the books that the scholars have published over the years, the Romanovs have been judged, and now that the only pending issue to close this chapter of history for good, is the burial of the Heir and one of the Grand Princesses.

The subject of the Romanovs will never go away.  They played an important role in shaping what became a world-class power. We must not forget the good and the bad things they did, that is what History is there for. 

Soon, it will be the turn of the communists. Someone will examine all of what they did, and then, comparisons between their totalitarian dictatorship and the autocratic Romanov rule in Russia, will take place.  It's not because I'm a staunch anti-communist that I can already say, without a shred of a doubt, that the Romanov period would come out smelling like roses compared to the communist period in Russia, and not because the Romanov period gives us all the reasons in the world to be proud about.

I can tell you that as bad as the Romanov period was for some, the sympathy that still exists for the Emperor and his family will not be extended to the short bald man with his ridiculous beard, and his successors in the Kremlin.

13
The Yussupovs / Re: Yusupov Exhibition
« on: August 28, 2009, 01:29:14 PM »
The Countess speaks in the video interview, and when she was asked by the reporter if she feels like a princess at all (she used the word "knyagina") she answered that "no, definitely not.  I'm Xenia.... Nicolaevna, and I'm very happy with this".  She seemed to be very "approachable", very easy-going. 

Has anybody ever conducted an extended interview with her? What does she think when she goes to Russia, and sees the palaces, the art, the furniture and certainly, the jewels that belonged to her direct ancestors less than a century ago?

I think that if Russia were to restore to her the value of all the assets that the communists expropriated, there wouldn't be enough money in the country.

I know that some time ago they let her spend a short time in the Moika palace, I think, with her family, and her portrait hangs in there as well, but other than that, has she been able to recover even a small fraction of what she would have inherited? Has any Russian noble family been able to have anything returned to them by the Russian State?

14
Nicholas II / Re: Nicholas II was Unprepared to Rule. Why?
« on: August 27, 2009, 08:21:52 AM »
Thanks!

15
Nicholas II / Re: Nicholas II was Unprepared to Rule. Why?
« on: August 26, 2009, 06:11:38 PM »
In The Last Days of the Romanovs there are references to drug use, "probably a blend of henbane and hashish administered by a Tibetan doctor, P.A. Badmaev, recommended by Rasputin to counter stress and insomnia."  I know this was discussed briefly in a thread about Alexandra's illness, but there was no further discussion about proof of this potential addiction that the royal couple may have shared.  There are also sources claiming that they were addicted to opiate analgesics, probably related to Nicholas' headaches and the Tsaritsa's sciatica, which continued during their captivity.  Being a physician, I can tell you that addicts go through hard-to-conceal withdrawal symptoms within a few days of missing their drugs (opiates).  This is not the same for hashish, which is a THC containing substance.
Do you think that the lack of "medication" would have caused, in turn, a lack of decision-making on the part of the Emperor? Would the withdrawal symptom be, at least in part, a passive attitude?

On the other hand, I don't know to what extent the physicians of the day knew the effect of the drugs they prescribed, like opiates, for example.  Would there be any chance that the opposite would happen, that is, that realizing the Emperor's addiction, his captors would actually give him enough medication to keep him "high"? Could the Emperor's behavior also be due to the fact that his captors might have blackmailed him to "stay put", or else, no drugs?

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