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Messages - umigon

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The Tudors / Re: The Carey Children
« on: January 29, 2009, 07:03:57 AM »

I firmly believe, and have stated so in other posts, that the Carey children were indeed Henry's. The exact cronology of his relationship with Mary Boleyn is impossible to trace, but it must have started not much sooner than 1521 and it was through by July 1525. So, Catherine was born right in the middle of Mary's relationship with Henry (around 1524) and Henry Carey was born 8 months after they split. Do you really believe that Henry would have allowed his concubine to have any affairs with other man, even with her own husband? I don't think so. It is true she could have cheated on him, but I'm sure he would have ended up noticing that. Anyone desiring to destroy the influence of the Boleyn or Howard families would have certainly make him know that Mary was cheating on him. And certainly, if the children weren't Henry's, they probably weren't Carey's either, as William Carey was shown every sign of favour by Henry, and I don't think Henry would have been so generous had he known Carey was having sex with his wife at the same time that he was. Only an indulgent husband would receive grants and prizes by the King...

About recognising his bastard children. Why so? He never recognised Ethelreda Malte and only ever acknowledged Fitzroy. And Fitzroy was recognized because he was looking for a proof that he was capable of generating healthy sons. So, once he got that proof in the person of Fitzroy, he was ready to show the world. But what profit would he gain recognizing Mary Boleyn's children? Absolutely none. They were the children of the sister of the woman whom he was about to marry. This woman, Anne Boleyn, would finally give him healthy and legitimate sons. So, why endanger the position of this future sons acknowledging publicly that he had had to do with the conception of his sister-in-law's children? We must remember that shortly after the birth of Henry Carey, Henry VIII started searching for a divorce from Catherine of Aragon on the grounds that she was his BROTHER's widow!!!

Iberian Royal Families / Re: Line of Succession to the Spanish Throne
« on: January 26, 2009, 04:14:55 AM »

I know what you mean, Yseult, but still, I don't think Spain would recognise a private renunciation done within the Royal Family. If Pilar and Margarita wished to push their rights forward in the eventuality of all Juan Carlos's descendants dying, I'm sure the laws of Spain would give them coverage...

About Luis Alfonso, that's a difficult issue. I've always thought don Jaime's renunciation was not legal (as it wasn't approved by the Cortes), but he then married semi-morganatically and don Alfonso's marriage was nothing else but morganatic. So, as the Spanish monarchy we have now is Franco's creation, old rules should not apply to the monarchy, so whether Jaime's renunciation was valid or not, Juan Carlos is true king of Spain (obviously). But, if all the line descending from don Juan should run out (impossible, I believe)... yeah, I think Luis Alfonso would have a chance.

Iberian Royal Families / Re: Line of Succession to the Spanish Throne
« on: January 24, 2009, 11:32:11 AM »

The renunciation of Infantas Pilar and Margarita were previous to the Constitution of 1978 and so they would not be valid if they decided to push forward their rights. If they had not rights because of their morganatic marriages then Juan Carlos's children would also had to be excluded.

Iberian Royal Families / Re: Line of Succession to the Spanish Throne
« on: January 16, 2009, 09:29:50 AM »
After Juan Carlos's grandchildren the next in line of succession would be Infanta Pilar and her descendants, followed by Infanta Margarita and hers. I don't think the Constitution has recognised any other persons entitled to succession rights. However, if for whatever causes all these people disappeared, I guess the Spanish Crown would have to be inherited by other descendants of Alfonso XIII. If these would be don Jaime's, doña Beatriz's or don Leandro's descendants, that is indeed unclear...


No one of his family went to Luis's funeral...

I don't know that much about the lovers. With her cousins, as far as I know Isabel was always on good terms with them.


That's it, Pepita was conned by younger men.

In fact they both led difficult, sad lives. Belita was abandoned by her husband, and Pepita also had a share of that, after having become obsessed with her unfaithful husband. In her last years she lived in Paris, where she indulged in dubious relationships with young men who took away much of her money.


It was Maria Berta de Rohan, who died penniless. I can't recall the story exactly but sure, it was her.

Iberian Royal Families / Re: Spanish Habsburgs
« on: November 16, 2008, 04:30:33 PM »

Juan José was kind towards Charles, but it wasn't just out of loyalty that he didn't usurp the throne: it was simply impossible in those times for a bastard to inherit a Crown, let alone if it had a legitimate king reigning.

Juan José had three known illegitimate daughters who didn't have any offspring, as they all became nuns:

1. Margarita de Austria (1650- Oct. 1686), she was born to Ana Lucía de Ribera, daughter of Jusepe Ribera, Lo Spagnoletto. She eloped with don Juan José when he was in Naples acting as Governor of that country, creating much scandal. Margarita became a nun in the Descalzas Convent in Madrid in 1665. She died there.

2. Catalina Ana Isabel de Austria (1661-26/11/1709). She was born in Madrid to an unknown mother and she died as a nun in Brussels.

3. Ana María Juana Ambrosia Vicenta de Austria (1663-17/3/1705). She was born in Madrid to an unknown mother and she died as a nun in Madrigal de las Altas Torres.

Iberian Royal Families / Re: Infante Gabriel of Spain and his descendants
« on: October 24, 2008, 05:37:20 PM »

In fact, the line still exists on the male line, although through an illegitimate line:

The Duke of Ansola, Luis de Borbón y Bernaldo de Quirós (1887-1942) had the following illegitimate offspring:

by Georgette Pages:

1. Louis Georges de Bourbon (1922), married Madeleine Priestnall (1926) in 1951. They have no issue.

by Marcelle Fernande Marthe Doyhamboure (1913-1994):

2. Philippe Serge de Bourbon (1935), married Anne Élisabeth Marie Garrouste (1940). They have issue:

    a. Marie Amélie de Bourbon (1970), married Cédric Marie Ghislain Rozier de Linage (1971) in 1995. I have no further details.
    b. Philippe Édouard de Bourbon (1973), married Caroline Sylvaine Albrech in 2002. I have no further details.

So the Bourbon surname hasn't disappeared yet in this side of the family...

Iberian Royal Families / Re: Infante Gabriel of Spain and his descendants
« on: October 19, 2008, 05:22:23 AM »
He married Julia Méndez y Morales, although the marriage was a disaster and they separated. I think they later got an annullment, but I'm not positively sure about that. This is what I earlier wrote in this thread.


She was a tender mother to her Muñoz children and Luisa Fernanda, but she was somewhat more cold and distant towards Isabel. The reasons as to why she conducted herself that way are unknown to me, but Isabel always seeked recognition and love from her mother. And Maria Cristina gave it, but in a more moderate way than she gave it to her other children. Their relationship grew closer through the years, particularly during the years of exile in France.


Alfonso was already a father when he married Ena (Roger Leveque de Vilmorin, born in 1905 to Melanie de Gaufridy), but he had conducted his affairs much more discreetly than he would do during his married life.

She investigated it on her mother and stepfather's behalf.

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