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Messages - ConstanceMarie

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1
Having Fun! / Re: Coloured pictures XXX.
« on: May 24, 2009, 10:52:23 AM »
Girls, I lurk often and wanted for once to comment and say how much I enjoy your beautiful pictures.:)

2
The Final Chapter / Re: Ekaterinburg letters
« on: May 24, 2009, 10:48:23 AM »
It's very sad to read these, knowing how soon they died, but thank you for posting.

3
The Final Chapter / Re: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?
« on: May 24, 2009, 10:42:36 AM »

Alexandra's diary of July 4,1918 tells how their jewels had been taken from them, and lists the theft of them as a possible reason that Avdiev and his men were replaced:

Diary of Alexandra Feodorovna
July 4. A new Commandant [Yurovski]. All the inner sentries are gone. (Probably one has discovered that they have taken all our things out of the loft) - the Commandant and his young assistant made us show all our jewels we had on and the younger one noted all down and then they were taken from us. Why? For how long? Where?-I do not know-they left me only two bracelets from Uncle Leopold [the late Duke of Albany] which I cannot take off, and left each of the children the bracelets we gave them, and which cannot be slipped off, also N's engagement ring, which he could not take off. They took away our keys from our boxes in the loft, which they had still left us - but promised to return them. Very hot, went early to bed, as I was frightfully tired and had pains in the heart.
July 5. The Commandant came with our jewels, sealed them up in our presence and left them on our table. He will come every day to see that we have not opened the parcel.


Once Yurovsky took over, he made a complete list of the family's jewels and other valuables, cataloged them and checked them almost every day.(Lost Fortune of the Tsars p.100)  It is evident that, considering all the searches, stealing, cataloging and checking, if the Bolsheviks had been aware of the ones in the clothing, those jewels would not have escaped, either. With this proof, we can safely say, they were unaware, meaning Buxhoeveden did not tell anyone about any jewels.

Further fact-checking reveals another interesting fly in the ointment, from FOTR page 142 again

Two further members of the Romanov household also betrayed the I family telling both bux and the bolsheviks what they knew of the hidden jewels. Countess Hendrikova's maid, Alexandrine Nikolaeva, and the maid Anna Romanova. When the prisoners arrived in Ekaterinburg, Rodionov reported this news to the Ural regional soviet, and all three women were questioned the same day. Like Buxhoeveden, Nikolaeva crumbled under pressure, according to Ural Regional Soviet member Paul Bykov, 'revealing where these things could be found.'

A big problem with this is that Anna Romanova stayed in Tobolsk and never made the trip to Ekaterinburg. Her name is not on Kobylinski's list of those who traveled onto Ekaterinburg, and is specifically mentioned by name as one who remained in Tobolsk.(Last Days of the Romanovs, page 125) Therefore, she could not have been on the Rus, and could not have been interrogated in Ekaterinburg as implied. The other alleged accomplice in squealing, said to be Hendrikova's maid Alexandrine Nikoleava, also does not appear on the list of those who left for Ekaterinburg. As a matter of fact, this name appears literally nowhere else but in these accusations. No such person was listed as being with the family, and did not go to Ekaterinburg so she couldn't have been questioned there by the Ural Soviet, either.. A VICTORINE Nikolaevna, listed as a ward (minor orphan charge) not maid of Hendrikova did come to Tobolsk with Hendrikova but did not leave with her. This leaves another hole in the story.

Anna Romanova, who had arrived with Bux in Tobolsk, also readily disclosed the secrets of the family she had served; she later married a Bolshevik commisar and remained in the USSR.

This is true, but  it had nothing to do with Buxhoeveden or any jewels. It was Soloviev and the money. From Nicholas and Alexandra, pages 464-467 or 489-491 in the paperback:

Soloviev established contact with the empress through one of her maids, Romanova, who had an apartment in Tobolsk. Though her he passed notes and part of the money. He used Romanova to raise their hopes by promising '(Father) Gregory's family and friends are active'. He arranged through her to have one of the IF give a hand signal showing support for the plan...
..as soon as the family left he (Soloviev) hurried to talk to Romanova, who later married a Bolshevik commisar.


Ah. This brings us back to Soloviev, which as established earlier in this thread, was the source of the original rumors against Buxhoeveden for stealing money he took!

For the record, I also saw it mentioned here that the Mademoiselle X he allegedly gave things to came later to Tobolsk, did not get to live the house but had an apt. in town. This describes Romanova, who came later when Buxhoeveden and another maid Anna Ultkin arrived later. She was younger than Buxhoeveden which may account for the age given of 23 years. As described in the accounts by Bulygin, Romanova did have contact with the family, though she did not live with them. Showing Soloviev coming to talk to her after the family was gone is yet more proof she did not go to Ekaterinburg. She did indeed betray the family, but not over jewels. She did in fact marry a Bolshevik commisar.

I hope this clears up a few of the questions about poor old Sophie Bux. and helps to save her reputation. Now her name should be cleared on both the money grabbing and the jewel squealing. A disclaimer, I am only relaying this and do not intend to fight on the subject. While there is sufficient evidence to discount the allegations as false, I offer no theory nor speculation on how they came to be wrong. Surely Soloviev is one reason. I have no further comment. The information is here, take it or leave it. Thank you for your time.

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The Final Chapter / Re: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?
« on: May 24, 2009, 10:41:54 AM »
I hate to bump this back up again, but a friend was doing a research project and came upon some new information I thought would really help clear this up once and for all. You've all done a great job of investigation, you should all work for the FBI LOL.

It looks like the issue of the stolen money has been cleared up. Now let's touch on the topic of Buxhoeveden allegedly squealing about the jewels, and the way it was presented.The rumor of her betraying the family has been traced to two culprits mainly Anna Andersen, and Boris Soloviev as explained in this thread.As far as I have ever seen these allegations in this form stem only from one book which was FOTR.  This is what was said on page 142,


As the Grand Duchesses terrified screams filled the deck of the Rus, echoing across the placid waters to the darkness beyond, Buxhoeveden acted. Perhaps in an effort to spare herself the same fate, or to guarantee her later safety, she found Rodionov, telling him not only of the fortune in jewels concealed beneath the clothing of the three young women, but where the items could be found: "The buttons on her coat aren't buttons" she revealed, "they're diamonds. The aigrette on that hat conceals a diamond from the shah of Persia and that belt there..underneath it are ropes of pearls."


First thing we have to consider here is that the "terrified screams" may well not have been true, but only based on the story Gibbes adopted son told since it is not mentioned in any other source, as seen in examination of evidence in other threads. That is not the issue here, and I am not going to get into that and if he lied etc., I merely mention it to lead into the notion that, if there were no screams, the stage being set for her running and telling has no basis. The idea that Buxhoeveden did this on the Rus, or did it at all, appears unique to this one source and no other. Background on this has of course been covered earlier in this thread so now let's move on.

It is not likely that she did tell, otherwise, the Bolsheviks would have been aware of the jewels and would not have been shocked to find them after the executions. The accounts by those involved make this clear, they were unaware of the sewn in items before the shootings:

Yurovsky:
"They shot the daughters but nothing happened, then (Y)Ermakov set the bayonet in motion and that didn't help; then they were finally finished off by being the head. Only in the forest did I discover what hampered the shooting of the daughters.."  (source, Fall of the Romanovs, Steinberg and Krustalev, p.359)"some of Yermakov's people started to pull at the girls' blouses where they discovered the valuables." ..."Things that had been sewn into the daughters' and Alexandra's clothing were discovered when the bodies began to be undressed..The daughters had bodices made up of diamonds and other precious stones that served not just as a receptacle for valuables but as protective armor. This is why neither bullets nor bayonets yielded results during the shooting and bayonet blows..there turned out to be eighteen pounds of such valuables." Fall of The Romanovs pages 361-62


So there we have it, Yurovsky was completely surprised to see the sewn in jewels, and discovered their location 'only in the forest' by his own words.

The Boshevik Medevdev remarked "as the girls started to be undressed, in the places where the corsets had been torn by bullets, diamonds could be seen. The mens' eyes literally lit up." (Nicholas and Alexandra: A Lifelong Passion, page 637)

Ermakov said once that it was only later that they realized the things were stuffed with jewels and acted to repel bullets(Dead Men Do Tell Tales, William Maples, page 244)

The pearl belt Buxhoeveden supposedly ratted out was not discovered until the bodies were being taken out to the truck, and to their surpise it fell out (Lost Fortune of the Tsars, William Clarke, pages 77-78)

Another item mentioned, the large diamonds disguised as buttons, did fool the Bolsheviks who were clearly unaware of them. Some of them went so unnoticed they were later found by the Whites, trampled into the mud at the gravesite. It was only when former servants Toudleberg and Esberg identified them that anyone had the slightest idea what they were. (Last Days of the Romanovs, Robert Wilton, pages 344-345) Had the Bolsheviks been alerted to look for covered buttons, they would not have ended up with the discarded trash, would they? Especially not since Yurovsky had commented on the men being eager to steal things off the bodies once they saw them. The buttons meant nothing to the Bolsheviks, meaning they had not been told about them.

Another item of interest: "Olga wore a satchel around her neck with some special gems and wore several ropes of pearls concealed across her shoulders. The manner in which the concealment effected misled the superficial search of the bodies at the (Ipatiev) house." (Last Days p344)

These quotes have to tell us that the claim on page 142 that "word of this hidden cache of jewels spread quickly among Ekaterinburg Bolsheviks" could not have been accurate. They did not know about them until the family was dead. There is too much evidence to prove this fact in various published sources as opposed to one unpublished one.

As a  matter of fact, the Bolsheviks didn't even need anyone to inform about the jewels, as they were not stupid and had expected their wealthy prisoners to be packing valuables. There is much evidence that they had been searching them and confiscating things since Nicholas, Alexandra and Maria had arrived in Ekaterinburg. This is told on page 30 of Last Days of the Romanovs and was the reason Alexandra let the girls know they had to sew the "medicines" into the clothes to hide them.

The Bolsheviks regularly plundered the family's valuables from the beginning, as described in Lost Fortune of the Tsars in the chapter called "Plunder." On page 76, we learn that stuff in storeroom was constantly pilfered, Bolsheviks plundered right in front of the family and Avdiev did nothing to stop it. Avdiev's drunken parties were frequently followed by raids on the storeroom where the Romanov goods were stored (Klier and Mingay Quest for Anastasia page 34) The family was subjected to frequent and arbitrary confiscations and pilfering of personal items  and this was even done before the passengers on the Rus ever arrived.(Klier and Mingay page 33) Most of their majesties' belongings went to the soviet or the lodgings of the commisars themselves and never returned'(Lost Fortune p75) The Bolsheviks' takeover reduced the possessions of the family that had been brought from Tobolsk to Ekaterinburg. (Lost Fortune p.100)

to be continued in a second post


 

5
Quote
From "Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson":

"I had a shock," Lili confessed, "a real shock when first I saw her - a poor, pale and wrinkled little face!" She and Anastasia began to talk about Tsarskoe Selo, about rugs and curtains and the colors of the Empress's dresses. Then Anastasia asked if Lili remembered the night in March 1917 when Mamma and Maria had thrown on their cloaks and gone outdoors to plead for the loyalty of the troops.
"We were together," said Anastasia.
"Yes," said Lili.

How would Anastasia have known this, being bedridden and delirious with measles??? Maria??? She was sickest of all, almost died! I don't hardly think she got out of bed and ran outside! This memory does not make much sense! :P

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(They went on to talk about several other things, and at the end...)

"Do not bother to tell me that she had read these things in books," said Lili Dehn. "I have recognized her, physically and intuitively, through signs which do not deceive....."
"What can I say after having known her? I certainly cannot be mistaken about her identity."

Kind regards
Chat Noir


What is the source of this?



6
The source of the info in the article was Lili's daughter, as told to the author.

7
The Final Chapter / Re: Anastasia's boots
« on: April 12, 2006, 04:38:16 PM »
I believe Sophie, after all she was the one who was there and knew them. Even if it weren't the policy of the guards to say things like that, it doesn't mean one bad one in a bad mood might have. I don't know why Buxhoevedon's credibility is suddenly being questioned years later by someone who wasn't even there. How do we know this new evidence in the new book isn't the one that's wrong? It seems that way to me.

8
The Myth and Legends of Survivors / Re: Anna = Anastasia
« on: April 10, 2006, 04:40:01 PM »
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No. Sorry.

I was a bit doubtful at times, because she knew about Ernie's visit in Russia, and I still have no idea, how Franziska Schabowska of all people should have known about it.

The trip was not fact but unproven rumor.

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But, even ignoring the DNA, I think there are two many points that point against Anna being Anastasia. Most notably that they don't look alike at all. Anderson also seemed to old to me to be Anastasia.

She was too old. Fransiska was born in 1896 and Anastasia in 1901 and Fransiska looked much older than her 23 years when fished from that canal.  No way are those the pictures of a girl of 18 which is what Anastasia would have been if she had lived and she doesn't have the same face either. So my vote is no.

9
The Myth and Legends of Survivors / Re: Anna Anderson's Story 2
« on: April 01, 2006, 03:00:12 PM »
I had something to say on the subject of languages and her accent. I hope it is okay to put it here since I can't find the posts anymore. Anastasia Romanov was known as a natural born mimick. She had a remarkable talent for picking up any accent, and even mocking individual voices. So, this is another bad thing for Anderson since she only had one accent and it didn't even match up with the way the real Anastasia would have sounded. She didn't have the same gift for accents as Anastasia, because she was a different person.

10
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why do some people have a hard time accepting the DNA?  


IMO, from what I've seen, it's not the science they have a problem with, anyone who understands science doesn't challenge it. What it seems to be is a certain handful of people who want AA to still be AN so bady that they are trying to come up with any way this can still be possible, and that must include doubting the DNA and trying to find something to hang onto that maybe it was somehow wrong. Of course, it wasn't but they are hoping. So what I'm saying is, hope seems to have a lot more to do with it than actual scientific challenge.

Besides the DNA, there are still many other factors working against AA, such as the fact that she looks just like FS and appeared in the same time and place FS vanished. Anything else is just one person's word against another and can never be proven.

11
The Yussupovs / Re: The Yusupovs and the Romanovs' relationship
« on: March 06, 2006, 06:06:29 PM »
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Is it true that the Dowager Empress's Dr. Kostrisky brought a letter to Felix's mother from Alexandra stating that she should have listened to her?

I read it in Felix's memoirs and it did not seem like something Alexandra would have done.

Thanks!


I don't know the doctor, but there was a story that the Yussupovs had the same family dentist as the IF and when he went to treat them in Tobolsk, he came back to say that the Tsar, not Alexandra, had said to 'tell Princess Yussupov she was right'. (presumably about Rasputin) and that if they had listened to her things might have turned out better.

And to Grandduchessella, Zenaida and Ella were great friends from the time Ella moved to Russia. They were very close, even best friends, and this is how Felix became close to her and considered her a second mother. If they had a rift later I think they worked it out.

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url=http://imageshack.us]



He didn't have the img tags right, I fixed them, so if it still doesn't work it must be the site doesn't allow linking. Try using just the addy itself copy and pasted in your browswer (unless pic posts- my comp. too slow to edit this again)

13
Books about the Romanovs and Imperial Russia / Re: Diaries
« on: February 20, 2006, 06:35:14 PM »
No it is someone who's been on this board, and she's a woman, not a man! It's got pictures, too. I'm so excited over it!

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Well, that's not true, is it? You believe AA was AN and you're ignoring all of the evidence that says otherwise.  That's not presenting a balanced view.

By believing that AA is AN, you are indirectly questioning the competence and integrity of the scientists who conducted the DNA tests, so I don't see how me calling so called 'esteemed professors' a few loaves short of a picnic is any different from your stance.

This conversation is beginning to go round in circles.  All I can say is that there are three little letters that give this whole argument a conclusive answer: D, N and A.  

Rachel
xx


That is what I have been thinking reading these threads. If you accept the DNA then you accept she wasn't AN. If you still have doubts about that then you must doubt the DNA and those who performed the tests. There is no other way around that. You can't say you believe it BUT- there is no more but, the DNA answered the question.

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The servants in the Imperial Party were given at least two opportunities to get out: when the captivity was first announced at T.S., when the family moved from T.S. to Tobolsk and I believe again when the move was made from Tobolsk to Ekaterinburg.  At any time previous to the imprisonment at Ekaterinburg they may have been able to request permission to leave and have the IF speak up for them to the guards.

Anyone else know about this?    


They did go to Tobolsk of their own free will, but at that time they saw it as only the temporary situation Kerensky said it would be, they had no idea what would happen. The Provisional Gov't in power at the time, who sent them out there, had no intentions of killing them. It was a tragic circumstance later as they were held out there when Kerensky's gov't fell, and they were trapped.

The ones who were separated from the family at Ekaterinburg had no choice, neither did the few who were allowed to stay on.

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