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Topics - AGRBear

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The Final Chapter / Plots of Rescue of IF fr 1917- July 1918
« on: April 04, 2005, 11:04:20 AM »
21 March 1917:
"On March 21, the Tsar, knowing that he was to become a prisioner, had lunch alone with his mother," wrote Robert Massie in his book NICHOLAS AND ALEXANDRA p. 426.   "At three p.m., the express from Petrograd arrived, bearing the government envoys.  At a quarter to four, the delegation accompanied by Alexeiev, arrived to claim the Tsar.  Nicholas stood up and tenderly kissed his mother goodby." "Nicholas left her car, walked across the platform and entered the drawing-room car of his own train... Whistles blew, there was a lurch and the Tsar's train started to move.  Nicholas, standing at the window, smiled and waved his hand."  The train took him toward is family waiting from him in the Alexander Palace... and to his new way of life which would be that of a prisioner and ex-Tsar of All the Russias.

"At four that afternoon, the palace doors were locked.  That night the first of their, " [Alexandra and the children's], "imprisionment...  From the park came the sounds of rifle shots; this time it was the soldiers of the new guard killing the tame deer.  Inside, the private wing of the palace was silent; from elsehwere in the building came sounds of laughter, broken by occasional snataches of song and drunken shouts,"  wrote Robert Massie p. 438.

22 March 1917:
"The morning of March 22..." continued Massie p. 439, "was cold and gray."  "At the palace gate, about a hundred years from the entrance hall, Nicholas faced another humilation.  The gates were officer who came out on the palace steps...asked in a shout, "Who is there?"  The sentry bawled back, "Nicholas Romanov."  The ex-Tsar Nicholas II entered the gates and the palace.  A crowd watched him as he walked toward the doors of the private appartments where Alexandra and the ohers were waiting.

Thus began the imprisonment of the ex-Tsar Nicholas II with his family.

According to most historians, there were plots to rescue Nicholas II and his family from the hands of the Bolsheviks.  I'd like to go into more detail about the various plots and discover what is known about these plots and why they failed.

Lets start with their [IF's]  "house arrest" right after the ex-Tsar Nicholas II joined his family on 22 March 1917 in the Alexander Palace at Tsarskoe Selo and work our way through to the night of 16/17 July 1918.

Who was the first person/ people to realize the IF were in danger and had felt there was a need of a rescue and when did this person/people  discuss this need to others?

I know about some of the rescue plots while the IF were in Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg.  I know very little about the earlier days, so, I hope to pick the brains of other posters who know these answers.


The Imperial Family / Imp. Family/Romanov's Family's Pets Links List
« on: April 01, 2005, 11:58:36 AM »
When I was looking around for photographs of Nicholas II's pets, I noticed there were many links to other royal pets but they are scattered  Since this  Bear likes lists,  I'm starting up a thread which provides the links to the various threads on this forum.  

Please add other links which leads us to other information about these royal pets:


>Nicholas II
1. & 2. Nicholas's two dogs - Varon (collie) and Iman:


2. Olga's Maltese:
3.  Could be another photo of Olga's Maltese with Nicholas II and Alexandra:

1. Tatiana's dog, a French Bulldog, was called Ortino:

1. Anastasia's first dog, Jemmy -  Japanese Chin:
2. Anastasia King Charles Spaniel was also called Jemmy or Jimmy:

1. Alexei's dog Joy - Springer Spaniel:

3.  Alexei's dog, name not known -
4.  Another site with dog Joy:


Research Russian Roots / Counts of Russia
« on: February 28, 2005, 07:38:59 PM »
1706 Sheremetev
20.4.1707 Golovkin
23.2.1710 Apraxin
8.7.1710 Zotov
18.2.1721 Bruce
7.2.1722 Apraxin II
7.5.1724 Tolstoy
24.10.1726 De Vieira
24.10.1726 Lowenwolde
5.1.1727 Skavronsky
24.2.1728 Munnich
3.1730 Saltykov
28.4.1730 Ostermann
19.1.1731 Jaguszinski
19.1.1732 Saltykov II
13.8.1740 Lacy
29.3.1740 Bruce II
25.4.1742 Efimowski
25.4.1742 Hendrikov
25.4.1742 Tchernyshov
25.4.1742 Bestuzhev
16.4.1744 Razumovsky
15.7.1744 Ushakov
15.7.1744 Rumyantsev
5.9.1746 Shuvalov
17.2.1760 Buturlin
22.9.1762 Orlov
22.9.1767 Panin
10.7.1775 Potemkin
25.9.1789 Suvorov
30.10.1790 Saltykov III
6.5.1793 Krechetnikov
1.1.1795 Fersen
1.1.1795 Potemkin II
12.11.1796 Bobrinskoy

Then follow so-called new counts, created by emperor Paul and his successors:

5.4.1797 Voronzov
5.4.1797 Bezborodko
5.4.1797 Dmitriev-Mamonov
5.4.1797 Zavadovsky
5.4.1797 Buxhoeveden
5.4.1797 Kamensky
5.4.1797 Kakhovsky
5.4.1797 Gudovich
5.4.1797 Mussin-Pushkin
9.6.1797 Osten-Sacken
8.4.1798 Sievers
21.4.1798 Stroganov
22.2.1799 Lieven
22.2.1799 Pahlen
22.2.1799 Kushelev
22.2.1799 Rostopchin
4.4.1799 Denisov
4.4.1799 Kochubey
5.5.1799 Arakcheev
5.5.1799 Kutaisov
15.9.1801 Vasiliev
15.9.1801 Tatishchev
15.9.1801 Protasov
12.12.1809 Gudovich II
29.10.1811 Kutuzov
29.10.1812 Platov
2.5.1813 Miloradovich
29.12.1813 Barclay de Tolly
29.12.1813 Bennigsen
30.8.1816 Tormasov
1.7.1817 Lambsdorff
19.4.1818 Vyazmitinov
12.12.1819 Konovnitsin
12.12.1819 Guriev
8.4.1821 Osten-Sacken II
25.12.1825 Orlov II
22.8.1826 Tatishchev II
22.8.1826 Tchernyshov II
22.8.1826 Kuruta
22.8.1826 Pozzo di Borgo
22.8.1826 Stroganov
25.6.1827 Diebitsch
15.3.1828 Paskevich
9.6.1829 Tohl
1.6.1829 Oppermann
22.9.1829 Kankrin
6.12.1831 Vassiltchikov
8.11.1832 Golenishchev-Kutuzov
8.11.1832 Benckendorff
1.7.1833 Essen
1.7.1833 Levashov
25.6.1834 Mordvinov
1.7.1835 Novosiltsev
1.1.1839 Speransky
26.3.1839 Kiselev
26.3.1839 Kleinmichel
18.4.1842 Bludov
19.3.1843 Kossakowski
24.12.1843 Przezdiecki
1.7.1846 Uvarov
1.7.1846 Baranov
1.7.1847 Adlerberg
19.9.1847 Nikitin
2.10.1847 Rudiger
3.4.1850 Vronchenko
3.4.1850 Perovsky
26.8.1852 Muravyov
26.8.1856 Berg
26.8.1856 Olsufiev
26.8.1856 Grabbe
26.8.1856 Zakrevsky
26.8.1856 Sumarokov
26.8.1856 Putyatin
20.11.1856 Perovsky II
17.4.1859 Evdokimov
23.4.1861 Rostovtsev
23.4.1861 Lanskoy
27.5.1862 Luders
17.4.1865 Muravyov II
28.10.1866 Lutke
18.3.1871 Brunnow
1.1.1872 Korff
19.3.1873 Miloradovich II
29.4.1874 Kotzebue
12.12.1877 Ignatiev
17.4.1878 Loris-Melikov
20.8.1878 Milyutin
19.2.1880 Valuiev
9.2.1881 Baranzov
23.11.1883 Delyanov
21.3.1884 Belyovskoy-Zhukovsky
20.1.1890 Reutern
21.2.1896 Simonich
1.1.1902 Solsky
18.9.1905 Witte
1912 Dmitriev-Mamonov II
18.11.1913 Freedericksz
29.1.1914 Kokovtsev
III.1915 Brasov

or information about COUNTS of the Russian Empire:


I jumped -- well, walked slowly-- to my book shelf and pulled down my "names" book.  Thought, yep, Soames does sound English.  Turned the page.  No Soames.  Huh?  Seems I'll be back with more on Soames tomorrow.

 I've got to go get my hubby from the airport.


The Final Chapter / Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« on: January 27, 2005, 06:11:02 PM »
Without using any testimonies of Yurovsky and the other executioners or buriel crew,  what evidence can you give me that proves the following  nine peoples' bones were  found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow?

The nine people are:
1 Anna Demidova
2. Dr. Evgeny Botkin
3 GD Olga
4. ex-Tsar Nicholas II
5. GD Marie
6. GD Tatiana
7. ex-Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexei Trupp

Let's me start with number one, #1-Anna Demidova.

Does the DNA match someone in her family?  If so, who? If no family can be found to show a match what other evidence can we use?   Are the bones the right height for Demidova?  And, please,  tell your sources in your posts.

Added to this can be other questions.  For example:  Using the common diagram seen above, in what order do you think the bodies were placed in the grave?

Perhaps you'd like to know why the diagram shows just five skulls.  Are some hidden still in the ground or have they already been removed or they are shown but it's difficult to find in the drawing?



The Final Chapter / Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Others
« on: January 23, 2005, 07:38:39 PM »
Memory, of all the powers of the mind, is the most fragile and can be easily broken into shards that reflect different images than the original.

So, that said,  let's dig into the memories of Yurovsky and others given to us in testimony about  the night of 16 /17 July 1918 and the buriels of the eleven.  And the buriel of the two other bodies not yet found must be talked about, also.

Lacher's last words about the event  were:  "I served the Bolsheviks well.  I keep my silence."*  He spoke these words in Anna Anderson's trial in the 1960s.

Even in 1960, when the world knew Nicholas II and the others were dead,  he continued his silence.  Why?  Was there still something the world didn't know?

Over and over I have speculated that something happen that night in the Impatiev House which we still do not know.  Something that Lacher, who at the age of 80, continued to be proud of the fact he had not revealed.

Speculation can range from one extreme [all were rescued], to the buriel place -- not yet known at that time-- to the missing of two bodies to  a mere embarsement of how poorly they had carried out the executions.

There is no need to try and convince me that we are suppose to believe everything told to us by Yurovsky, CHEKA, Soviet Urals, Moscow Soviets, communists, GPU or KGB.  This isn't why this thread has been created.

So let me start.

I was just reading PAVEL MEDVEDEV'S TESTIMONY given  21-22 Feb 1919 found pps. 346-351 in  Steinberg and Khrustalev's book THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS.  He voiced several things of interest.  One being that he was assigned to clean up and when he and the others were done about 3 o'clock in the morning, Yurovsky went to his office and Medvedev went  home....   According to King and Wilson, evidence told them that Yurovsky and Lacher were on the truck as it left the Impatiev grounds at 3 o'clock  p. 314.


* p. 516 King and Wilson's book THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS


If most of you think this is a wasted effort,  I assume the thread will just fade away.

If you have questions like I do,  let's see what we discover and talk about it.

Why did Lacher say he went home instead of joining the others on the trip to the mines in those early morning hours?


PS  Questions and anwers about the grave are found over on this thread:;action=display;num=1106871065

The Stuarts of Scotland / Books/TV/Films about the Stuarts
« on: January 22, 2005, 03:22:15 PM »
Many of us go to Amazon or Barnes and Nobel and see a list of books about Scotland.  But which ones are the best to buy for a limited budget?

Perhaps some of us could suggest books to read about the subject of the Kings and Queens of Scotland.

My books are rather old so I'm not up to date with the new generation of books, so, this will help me, too.


Imperial Russian History / WW I & Nich II's Leadership/Truth & Fiction
« on: January 18, 2005, 03:05:53 PM »
When looking for something else,  I ran across Fige's statements about Russia and if it was prepared for WWI.  He said on  p. 253:  "By 1914 Russia was spending more than Germany on her armed forces:  over one-third of all government expenditures.  It is not true, as historians later claimed, that the Russian army was unprepared for war.  In manpower and material it was at least the equal of the German army, and, thanks to the recent improvements of Russia's western railways, took only three days more than its enemy to complete its mobilization."

In this conversation,  I'd like to talk about what Nicholas II did right as a  leader before and during WWI which would break some of the myths that he was just a rediculous leader sitting on a hippo on some dusty table in a dark corner of a palace.


PS Orlando Figes's book is:  A PEOPLE'S TRAGEDY, THE RUSSIAN REVOLUTION 1891-1924.

The Stuarts of Scotland / Stuart Family History
« on: January 17, 2005, 02:55:30 PM »
Wasn't sure if I should start a different thread, but,  I do think Mary Queen of Scots should be discussed on her own thread.  Her ancestors and the descendant of her son James VI, who became King James I of England,  need their own thread, I think.

Back in the early 1990s I use to take a magazine called THE HIGHLANDERS and this is where I gained a lot of information on the Scots.  I do not know if this magazine still continued to this date.  If someone is really interested,  I'm sure they can find some information on google.

This is a copy of Vol. 29, No. 4, July/Aug 1991.

As you can see the leading story is about the Scottish royal regalia.


WITH THE ARMIES OF THE TSAR, a Nurse at the Russian Front 1914-18 by Florence Farmborough

On the jacket it reads:

"Florence Farmbourgh went to Russia in 1908, a 21-year-old Englishwoman engaged as a companion/governess to a family iin Kiev.  When the war broke out in 1914, she volunteered for Red Cross work, and after training at a hospital in Moscow, was sent to the Polish front with a Flying Column of Russian troops."

She kept a diary and took photographs which captured the war's "chaos", "devastion", etc. etc. etc. ....

It's her own personal story about real events and not something a author has created.

Oh,  almost forgot, the family she lived with in Moscow was Dr. Pavel Sergeyevich Usov, whom she called "a famous heart surgeon".

Her first entry in the book is Aug. 1914.

Has anyone else read this book?


Was it possible that it was Tatiana who survived?


I know someone was asking for a title of a book about Alex. II's second wife, Katia, but I couldn't find the thread this morning.  So,  I thought,  well,  this book and subject might be best to have it's own thread.

The book is title: KATIA, Wife Before God by Alexandre Tarsaideze.

Published in 1969.

The book opens by saying on p. 9:

"On Sunday, July 18, 1885, and event that rocked the Empire took place in "Holy Russia". It was the the sudden morganatic marriage of the aging Czar, a widower of forty days, to his young mistress of more than fourteen years."

This book may give many of you an new insight and a better understanding of Alex. II and Katia.

There are so good photographs which are not generaly found in the various Romanov web sites due to many who frown upon this part of Alex. II's life.


The Final Chapter / Who Was At Second Burial of Imp. Fam.?
« on: November 18, 2004, 11:28:22 AM »
No, it was on the morning of the 17th, AGRBear, that Yurovsky dismissed Ermakov's men. During the early morning hours of the 19th, more men arrived on the order of the Cheka or some other Bolshevik higher-ups. These were men from the surrounding factories, ordered to help retrieve the bodies from the mineshaft.

According to Sukhorukov, on the morning of July 19, the following people were present for the retrieval of the corpses from the Ganina Works (Four Brothers) mineshaft and presumably, for the reburial in Pig's Meadow later that same morning:

Yurovsky, Pavlushin, Gorin (from the Cheka), Rodzinsky, a Magyar (i.e. Hungarian), Ermakov, and Feodor Tiagunov (from the Red Army). Additionally, the Lysensky workers: Aleks. Bozhenov, Nikolai Pospelov, Ivan Pospelov, Nikolai Samoilov, Mikhail Veselkov, an Estonian named Kiut, another Estonian named Kil'zin, Dmitri Ponomarev, and Gur'ev. From the Verkhne-Turinsky factory: Petrov, Alek. Ryabkov, his brother, and an acquaintance named Yasha. Finally, according to his account, Lukiianov was present, as was Vladimir Sunegin. (According to Kudrin, the sailor Vaganov was also present, which jibes with Sukhorukov's account that two sailors, Sunegin and one whose name he didn't know [i.e., Vaganov] personally retrieved the bodies from the mineshaft.)

This is 23 men, including Sukhorukov himself; 24 men counting Vaganov.  There may well have been additional men whom Sukhorukov also did not know (he didn't mention the men from the Ipatiev House by name, for example - even if the "Magyar" was Lepa or Verhas, that still leaves two additional men he never added to his total).

And just because Sukhorukov says Pavlushin was present and he may not have been (according to FOTR), this is no reason to discount the ENTIRETY of his testimony (we actually have no way of knowing if Pavlushin was present or not - he was injured on the 17th, as indeed was Yurovsky, but could easily have been back in action by the 19th).  

Elisabeth has given us a great list of who was probably at the second buriel of the Imperial Family and the others in Pig Meadow.

Who were these men?  What happen to them after the buriel?  How many left testimony/letters or stories from which we can find father information?

If there were others, who were they?


Romanov and Imperial Russia Links / Romanov Album
« on: November 12, 2004, 05:59:59 PM »
On another thread Lanie gave this link for the Romanov Albums:
Here is the link for the albums:

The Final Chapter / Peter Ermakov
« on: November 09, 2004, 12:41:38 PM »
Peter Ermakov:
"Unlike Yurovsky, Ermakov positively relished his role in the Romanov murders."  wrote King and Wilson, p. 512 THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS.  
He had given his Mauser revolver to the Ekaterinburg museum and often took his friends to see the gun which he claimed he had used to  shoot and kill Nicholas II.
Evidently, it was Ermakov and not Yurovsky who made public appearances and voiced in detail what had occured in the basement of the Impatiev House on the night of 16/17  July 1918.
Unlike Yurovsky,  Ermakov was never censured but p. 513 "rewarded,  given promotions, better apartments and even additional pay."  Even his retirement pay was different.  He received a "personal pension".
Died 1952 and given full honors.
It appears to what I've read,  the Soviets view Ermakov with a "proud eye" more than they did Yurovsky.  What was the reason?  I thought Ermakov was the "drunkard" and the one who had been "unreliable"  

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