The Alexander Palace Time Machine Discussion Forum

There was a thread about the Romanov celebrating Christmas.  I'd like to establish a new thread which takes us into their holiday season. Added to their Christmas let us attach traditions, quotes from books as well as photographs.   Anything you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

AGRBear

Aleksander III, MF, Ksenia and doggies

I went through my collection and this is the only one I could find

From Alexander III  Photo Tour thread, p. 16

Thank you Alixz.

Hopefully, I can pop back into the forum from time to time. 

AGRBear

Katierina

Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya

There were many forums which are no longer up and running.  Mine, however, is still open:

http://agrbear.hyperboards.com/index.php

After the DNA results,  my forum lacks activity, but, that's okay.  I'll just keep it open because there is a lot of information from and by many good people, each with their own opinions,  I met here on this forum.

FA, as he has just posted,  was often frustrated by the many many questions I asked.  But,  I knew that those who believed Anna was Anastasia needed answers and I was willing to help them find the answers.  Greg King and Penny Wilson ended up writing a book about Anna, which I hope all of you have bought,  because when all was said and done,  Anna's life is an interesting story.  

Remember: This thread was created 27 Jan. 2007,  to answer questions that  didn't have answers at that time.

AGRBear

From my first post to the last post,  I never believed Anna Anderson was Anastasia,  however, I did ask a lot of questions.  So do not believe that I believed Anna was Anastasia  by poster who may  give my words out of contents from the many many threads.

I had a lot of questions about the excavation of both burial sites.  Still do even if most people do not.  

The DNA was a mystery to me and due to a lot of post in this forum,  I managed to grasp it and have learned a great deal about DNA and the people who tested the corpses in the graves.  I have never voiced that the bodies found were not Romanovs.

So,  please,  let us not get into throwing mud at Bear just because I asked a lot of questions while trying to learn the truth.

AGRBear

So very glad to see this thread is still active. 

I've always found that humans show more of their true character when next to their pets.

AGRBear

It is interesting to see that my old quotes are still being reposted.

There are old threads that have some great discussions on these same questions.   UC Berkeley Bear and UCLA Bruin often went toe to toe... :>)     as did many others with Bear.   We were all after the same goal which was to discover the truth.  

Due to the fact that the Russians were sloppy in their investigation from 1917 to the excavation of the mass grave and the site  with the two bodies,  some questions will never have answers.

AGRBear

Bear is delighted that this thread still sparks interest.

:>)

[bullets: fourteen bullets from the following: a. one - 7.63 mm Mauser b. four were from: Browning Colt Smith & Wesson c. nine were from: Russian Nagant revolvers]

Date 11 July 1991: The layers of the grave as the bones were being dug up and removed were:
1.  Top-layer was 30 centimeters
2.  Railroad ties with "redeposited soil" - southern wall of mass grave then stones, branches, rotten wood
3. First bone uncovered was left pelvic bone of human remains at depth of 50 centimeters
4. Found the box with three skulls, sacrum, glass ampoules and viles [human hair and frgments of skin], two lumbar vertebrae, kneecaps, two jaw fragments with teeth, a lower jaw, two loose teeth two vertebra from neck, a right rib bone, two metcarpal bones, a right hipbone, portion of a left shoulder bone,  which had been placed in the pit in 1980 by Ryabov and Avdonin who had returned what they had found and taken out.   The box was taken up and opened.
--

12 July 1991
5.  Determined the dig in 1979 had damaged the integrity of the 1918 grave
6. Pit was widen and deepen
7. More bones found as well as fragments of vessels which is assumed were what had held the acid used in 1918.... rope...
8. The laying of a cable was noticed on the western corner of the pit
9.  See diagram of now the bones were found....

[unclear when the following was found]
10.  firing mechanism from a hand grenade
11.  bullets:   fourteen bullets from the following:
       a. one - 7.63 mm Mauser
       b. four were from:
            Browning
            Colt
            Smith & Wesson
       c. nine were from:
             Russian Nagant revolvers
--

13 July 1991- Exhumation ended

----

For more details see THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS b y Wilson and King  pps. 402-8
----
23 July to 25 July 1991

Bones were taken from the grave and to the Upper Verkh-Isetsk Police Departemnt's shooting range which is on the edge of Sverdlovsk

On ten sheets of plain brown wrapping paper the bones were sorted  [ the tenth were for the "we don't know" pile
----
Days which followed.

Bones were cleaned and washed and it is said that some bones crumbled into dust during this process....
-----
8 Aug 1991
Moscow authorized the formal investigation of the bones under the leadship of Dr. Bladislav Plaskin

All bones were numbered with white paint
-----

End of Sept.
Remains were moved to the Department of Criminal Pathology morgue in Sverdlovsk, third floor and behind a gated and locked door....  Bones were placed on metal autopsy tables and arranged...

Total of 500 bone fragments were left  [there are 206 individal bones in each human body]....

------
Second dig of mass grave

Oct 1991
12.  300 bone fragments were found
13.  13 loose teeth
14. 11 bullets
15. 150 small pieces of fatty tissue
16. fragments of rope and ceramic
----

AGRBear

Found:  25 bullets

Only 14 we know for certain came out of the mass grave.  The other 11 were found while sifting dirt that was lefted by bulldozer shovels which included not just the grave but ground around the grave.

The Russians were not using the best of forensic methods in the first or second digging.

AGRBear

DEAD MEN DO TELL TALES by William R. Maples, PH.D. p. 252:

>>In all, foureen bullets were recovered from the grave, along with the remains of one had grenade detonator.   All the bullets were 7.62, 7.63 or 7.65, about the equivaent of .32-caliber bullets.  The Russians told us they believed nine of the bullets came from Nagants, four came possibly from a Browning and one from some other gun, possibly a Mauser.  These bullet had almost certainly lodged in the bodies at the time of death but twelve of them had gradually come loose as the remains decomposed.<<

Since I have not seen any of Maples actual reports,  I do not know how he came to this conclusion about the bullet being in the remains found in the mass grave.

p. 254 Maples continues:
>>The bodies Numbers 2,3 and 6, had though -and-through gunshot wounds to the head.  Another body, No. 9, had stab wound in the breastbone that could have been made by a bayonet.<<

AGRBear

[Yurovsky]

No, but rifle butts & bayonets will do the job in a pinch.  

There was extensive damage to the facial bones, remember, consistent with blows from rifle butts. Granted, we can't know how much of that damage was inflicted post-mortem. And, since we have no soft tissue to examine, it's equally impossible to know the extent of the damage inflicted by bayonets, even without the puzzle of diamond corset/armor...

If you look at the list of guns handed out by Yurovsky to the other executioners,  there are no rifles involved.

 

...[in part]...


Yourvsky's account:

p. 634 LIFELONG PASSION

>>Yurovsky  On the morning of the 16th....
Twleve revolvers were prepared, and it was decided who would shoot at whom.  Conrade Filipp [Goloschekin] informed me that a lorry would come at midnight, that the newcomers were to be admitted on giving the password, and the bodies handed over to them, to be taken away for burial."<<

....

ARBear

THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson p. 297:
>>...He ordered Medvedev to collect the revolvers from al of the guards on exterior duty.  When Medvedev returned, he placed the assembled collection on the desk in the commandant's office, leaving Yurovsky to sort through the arssenal with which the crime would be committed.  Fourteen guns were used that night.  There were six pistoles: a .28-caliber** (6.43 mm) Browning; a .32-caliber (7.63* mm) Browning; two .45-caliber (11.43) American Colts; and two .32-caliber (7.63 mm) Mausers; and eight revolvers:  a .42-caliber (10.66 mm) Smith and Wesson; four .30 - caliber (7.62 mm) Nagants; and three .35-caliber (9mm) Nagants.  The most powerful weapons were the two [p. 298] Maussers, with a velocity of 1,400 feet per second.  Of the fourteen guns, nine--all of the Nagants, and the Colts --used gunpower to fire their bullets, causing a discharge of smoke and caustic fumes.  Among them, they held a total of 103 shots.<<


AGRBear

PS
*& **Error in typing corrected:
 

...[in part]...

Dear Mrs. Bear,

Using the information that you posted above, I started to research the technical specifications of the fireams that you listed. I did however find some inaccuracies in this list which may simply be explained by mistyping. For example:

.28 caliber (6.43 mm) Browning- Browning did not make a .28 cal. but rather a .25 cal. pistol.

.32-caliber (7.73 mm) Browning- Metric conversion of a .32 cal. cartridge is 7.63 mm rather than 7.73 mm.
....

David

The bayonet used by Ermakov was said to have been "detached".

There are two threads which talk just about the bayonet/bayonets used.

The smashing of faces used by rifles wasn't done until just before the nine bodies were placed into the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.  These are the kind of blows Maples mentioned to several skulls like Marie's.  I forget the number at the moment.

AGRBear

[preliminary findings of the 2007 excavation remains]

This morning, Friday September 28, 2007 a media Conference was given by the assistant Director of the Sverdlovsk Forensic Medicine Bureau Vladimir Gromov. He announced the preliminary findings of the 2007 excavation remains.

They examined the 6 whole teeth and one tooth fragment. Silver amalgam fillings were found embedded in these teeth analogous with the dental work of the teeth identified in the 1991 excavation remains.

In addition, of the 48 bone fragments, 29 are not able to be identified at this stage. Many bone fragments are less than one gram in weight. Traces of gunshot wounds were also found on bone fragments.

These initial macroscopic observations are the first of many investigations to be undertaken in the next several months.

In addition Gromov has also announced that negotiations are proceeding with international DNA specialists to participate later in this Inquiry.

Margarita Nelipa

I think that covers what was found in the graves found in 2007.

October 12, 2007

Ballistics Results on the Ekaterinburg 2007 remains

Senior Procurator Vladimir Soloviev, who heads the Second Ekaterinburg Inquiry has announced the following ballistics results:

1.  The remains show evidence that two Browning revolvers were used. One weapon was a 1903 issue. The second weapon was a 1900 issue.

2.  The bullets that were discharged from these two weapons were the same as those that were found at the 1990's excavation location which contained the remains of Nikolai II, Alexandra Fedorovna and the other members of the Imperial Family + staff.

Margarita Nelipa

This is an update/ 2010: http://www.youtube.com/user/SnowyHistory#p/u/3/HonT60qAB0g

After farther testing of the 2 bullets found in the graves of 2007,  the marks on the two  bullets do NOT match the earlier bullets found.  The third is too damage to be tested.

All three are the same caliber and date around 1900 and they are different calibers than the bullets found earlier than 2007.

I think that brings everyone up to the present.


AGRBear

I presume the photo is no longer is available, which is too bad.   Perhaps someone has saved it and can add it to this thread.

On several of these threads I counted the bullets found,  gave pictures of some of them and gave sources.  Also showed the diagrams as to the skeletons found and the bullet holes were noted.  The guns I could find were also pictured.  As I find these threads,  I'll note them here.
Then we can make a new list.

AGRBear