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May 19, 2013, 01:52:03 PM
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1  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Tudors / Re: Richard III remains found & identified on: March 19, 2013, 02:15:28 AM
This from Richard III mailings.
http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Richard-III-options-open-king-s-resting-place/story-18425295-detail/story.html#ixzz2NosVOsgT
2  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Tudors / Re: Richard III remains found & identified on: March 12, 2013, 04:33:33 AM
Now, this is interesting.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmhansrd/cm130307/debtext/130307-0001.htm#13030784000048.

look under "Church Commissioners"

Following on from this, there will be an Adjournment Debate today in parliament regarding the terms of the Exhumation Licence granted to the University of Leicester arising from the concerns raised by Hugh Bayley ( MP for York central ).
3  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Tudors / Re: Richard III remains found & identified on: March 05, 2013, 12:54:07 AM
Um, he was a medieval King.... Psychologists...sheesh.
4  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Tudors / Re: Richard III remains found & identified on: February 28, 2013, 12:15:02 PM
Thanks for that CountessKate. I missed it but hope to watch it on "catch up" and I had heard that it was a more "grown up" version of the first documentary.
5  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Tudors / Re: Richard III remains found & identified on: February 24, 2013, 02:10:39 AM
Info for anyone who can get More4.
http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/following-hit-doc-more4-to-screen-richard-iii-the-unseen-story

Wednesday 27th February at 9 pm.
6  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Tudors / Re: Richard III remains found & identified on: February 14, 2013, 08:52:16 AM
Going a bit off topic ( again). Leicester quite fancy having a root around and having a look for Wolsey's remains now;
http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Richard-III-Discovery-prompts-calls-remains/story-18125709-detail/story.html#axzz2KtAkFzsp.
I've also heard that there is some interest in exhuming Richard of Eastwell and comparing DNA with Richard III.
http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kentish_express/news/2013/february/7/richard_iii.aspx

7  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Tudors / Re: Richard III remains found & identified on: February 14, 2013, 08:42:12 AM
Here goes :-)

Canon law in the 15th century was a moral code strictly enforced by the church. It was a minefield, forbidding marriage amongst relations whom "we would scarcely acknowledge today".
( Hicks ).

- KINSHIP   -   Consanguineous - blood relatives who shared a common ancestor
                -   Affinial - whereby marriage or sexual intercourse that made relatives out of in laws.

Consanguinity and Affinity were expressed as degrees. Marriage between partners within four degrees of kinship were incestuous and banned.
Royalty and aristocracy frequently inter married with kin in which case a Papal Bull would be requested and dispensed. Frequently, they did not wait for the dispensation but married in the expectation of the Bull.
According to HICKS;
Impediments to Richard and Anne's marriage were;
- First cousins once removed ( as indeed were Clarence and Isabel Neville ).
- A distant tie created by Anne's first marriage - Edward of Lancaster was a distant cousin to them both.
- Anne and Richard were brother-in-law and sister-in-law. In the 15th century view they were brother and sister.
A dispensation was applied for and approved on 22nd April 1472. Hicks claims that this was insufficient to validate the marriage and according to him " no other dispensation was ever secured".
No date for the wedding recorded but it is likely that it took place in late spring/early summer 1472.
None of Richard's contemporary critics queried this marriage

The Richard III Society refutes the claim that Isabel and Anne could not legally marry two brothers whereby the first marriage would set up the impediment of Affinity to the second.
Interestingly, Clarence complained that the marriage was effected by "force and fear"- thus making it null and void.
(You can follow this argument by googling Richard III society).




8  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Tudors / Re: Richard III remains found & identified on: February 14, 2013, 01:23:42 AM
Absolutely agree with you with regards to the Hicks "biography" Simon although it does explain such things as degrees of kinship requiring dispensation prior to marriage ....oh and in the intro he kindly informs us that" Anne was a woman"....

Is this the writer who suggested that their marriage was incestuous because of the Clarence/Isobel marriage?
I have never read anywhere else that brothers are forbidden to marry sisters. I had thought that kinship was conferred by marriage from one person to their in-laws but not further to include their siblings as relations of their in-laws (so, to put it more clearly, had Anne stayed single and married Clarence after Isobel's death, this would have been incestuous, but there was no bar on her marrying Clarence's brother at any point). Am I wrong here?

Its been a while since I read it but I will revisit it again today and let you know....its a bit mind numbing to say the least :-)
9  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Tudors / Re: Richard III remains found & identified on: February 14, 2013, 01:21:59 AM
Its quite lovely isn't it?
I was imagining unicorns and fluffy kittens for some reason but I think Ms. Langley has done herself proud :-)

Did she actually design it? Most of the stories are saying "commissioned" on behalf of the Richard III Society, but I don't know if that means she asked someone else to design it, or to produce it to her designs?

I saw one interview where she said that she had designed the tomb and that the society were very positive about it. This was on the TV before the final announcement of the findings. I also have read in other places that she commissioned her design working with the Richard III society. If I get to the bottom of it I will let you know.

Edited to add;
I have spent time looking online and it DOES state commissioned everywhere.
I wonder wether Ms Langley "suggested" some or all of the design?
10  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Tudors / Re: Richard III remains found & identified on: February 13, 2013, 04:45:53 AM
Just found these close ups.
http://www.lostincastles.com/tomb-gallery/
11  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Tudors / Re: Richard III remains found & identified on: February 13, 2013, 02:52:32 AM
Its quite lovely isn't it?
I was imagining unicorns and fluffy kittens for some reason but I think Ms. Langley has done herself proud :-)
12  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Tudors / Re: Richard III remains found & identified on: February 13, 2013, 01:13:27 AM
Well, here it is;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-21427369
13  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Tudors / Re: Richard III remains found & identified on: February 12, 2013, 12:23:23 PM
I hear that Ms Langley is going to unveil her design for Richard's tomb tonight at midnight ( Uk time). I will link pics when I see them.
14  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Tudors / Re: Richard III remains found & identified on: February 12, 2013, 01:34:46 AM
Absolutely agree with you with regards to the Hicks "biography" Simon although it does explain such things as degrees of kinship requiring dispensation prior to marriage ....oh and in the intro he kindly informs us that" Anne was a woman"....
15  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Tudors / Re: Richard III remains found & identified on: February 09, 2013, 07:51:26 AM
Quote
On another forum ( not history), a very large thread grew over a very short time with members criticising Philippa Langley and her " over the top histrionics" regarding the discovery and identification of the remains. Her insistance of draping a flag over the box of remains when they were removed from the dig site and her tears and sobs when the face of Richard was finally revealed. I found these comments quite cruel ( although she was extremely, shall we say, excitable). However, these were the remains of England's last Plantagenet King and not of some poor, faceless peasant and she had been central to the discovery. I could only compare her reactions to that of some dedicated historian, passionate about his/her subject - in this case, the Romanov bones - gazing down on the newly discovered remains of the Russian royal family.

I myself grew irritated with the Philippa Langley emotings but not because of her feelings in themselves, which were understandable in view of the heavy personal investment she had in the identification of the remains, but because of the intense television dwelling on this as it made for a more exciting programme, and because the amount of personal investment in a particular theory makes for bad history.  One could tell, for example, that Philippa Langley was genuinely shocked that the skeleton of Richard III had clear spinal scoliosis, thus suggesting that the 'myth' of Richard's deformity was not in fact an absolute myth, but nevertheless cut into her view that the Tudors had invented everything about Richard III.  To a significant extent, her historical perspective is now based on emotion in this particular area, and by placing her as the focal point of the documentary, this emotion starts to validate for the watchers theories that have no basis in historical fact - that is, that Richard III was innocent of all the crimes of which he was accused.  She was convinced by some heavenly source that Richard's remains were under the car park, she was right, she was sure the remains found were his, she was right, she looks at the facial reconstruction and emotes that this is not the face of the killer - well, with the last she might be right but she might be wrong.  The last theory is bad history.  She is passionate about her subject, but I cannot compare her to a dedicated historian insofar as she has crossed the line between what she believes to be true and what she can demonstrate to be true.  There are all sorts of reasons why people or institutions don't wish to acknowledge a particular truth, and sometimes it isn't necessarily for a bad reason, but there is just too much emotional investment in believing something different.  

Yes, the look of horror on her face when the skeleton was revealed with its scoliosis was a thing to behold. It seemed like her bubble had burst!
I wonder what would have happened if it was shown that the skeleton was NOT Richard's.... the mind boggles :-)
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