The Alexander Palace Time Machine Discussion Forum

Norbert - You're very welcome.    I can post the exact quotes by tomorrow on each of them, including those on Marianne, Mimi, Elisabeth, and Max. They are most interesting and funny! I will have to check if it contains any reaction of Louis XVI to Joseph calling his cousin (Ferdinand of Parma) ' the simpleton' 

Eric Lowe - I think you have a point in saying Joseph's sisters adored him. Caroline even wrote Antoinette that Joseph spoke most tenderly of her (Antoine) to them and that they felt a bit jealous because it seems that Antoine was his favorite (although she hastened to add that it only showed the Emperor's good taste). Although she did not mention who else felt jealous (only saying 'we'), I reckon it must be Amalia.

I also remembered reading in one of Marie Theresia's biographies that she would speak often of her beloved daughters in Italy -  Caroline, Amalia, Luisa, and Beatrice. How sad that Amalia and her mother never truly reconciled.  Perhaps if she dealt with Amalia in a different manner things could've been better.... in general, the tone of her letters to Antoine was not pleasant and affectionate and even very harsh and I can only imagine how that receiving letters with the same tone (scolding and nagging) could only further infuriate Amalia. 

Did Joseph ever visit Parma? It seems to me that Maria Theresa married her Daughters for State Reasons and then counseled them when they ran into problems. There was a lot of letter writing...in fact I read that Maria Carolina wanted her children to confide in her the same way that MT had encouraged her children to. Perhaps like Marie Antoinette they got a visit from Joseph but I cannot find anything that mentions it. Although I like the idea of Maria Amalia marrying for love that is a concept of today not the eighteenth century.

He visited Amalia and Carolina. And I seem to remember reading that Joseph accompanied Amalia on her bridal journey to Parma... perhaps because of the connection with his beloved Isabella.  The book on Princesse de Lamballe mentioned of the many witty and amusing anecdotes he shared with Marie Antoinette, Louis XVI, and the Princesse de Lamballe on his Italian relations.... Amalia and in Parma, Leopold in Tuscany, Ferdinand in Modena,Carolina in Naples and their spouses, etc.. Marie Antoinette was so embarassed for her siblings and signalled him to stop but he went on anyway    He didn't spare anyone, adult or child.  In another book, it was said that he had many sarcastic comments and was full of contempt for the court of Parma and that he was very irritated with Amalia's eccentricity and other proceedings there. He also criticized his sister's headdress as unflattering but Amalia countered that  that it was good and pretty enough for a monk!  The really irritated Joseph who then asked his sister to join him and the King of Sweden in Rome, where they could play cards, a game where the winning card is the 'la matta'  
 

Thanks for your replies. 

So, he had one child then. As far as I  know, his wife was around 11 years younger than he was and I'm surprised they didn't have more children. She was also the choice of bride by the Dauphine Maria Josepha for her son, the future Louis XVI, who married Marie Antoinette.  I also read that he was eccentric and built this great palace (Karlsberg Palace) yet he wanted to be alone and hated people being around. Can anyone confirm his eccentricity and how was it manifested, if true?

Well, I seem to recall that the Empress was worried about the possibility of miscarriages when riding. Although at that time, Marie Antoinette's marriage was not yet consummated so there was no chance of her being pregnant.  It must be very frustrating for her daughters to answer her letters and try to comply with their mother's demands, particularly because she often contradicted herself.  For instance, Louis XV himself gave Marie Antoinette money for new horses and she was supposed to please him (as instructed by her mother) yet her mother wanted her to stop riding and ignore the King's gift to Antoine. Another time, she nagged Antoine about not wearing corsets.  Antoine replied that such things were not worn in France (keeping in mind her mother's advice to adhere to the customs of her new country) yet her mother insisted on sending corsets from Vienna.     I can imagine how frustrating such scoldings and contradictions can be for Amalia, Antoine and Carolina. No wonder Amalia turned totally wild and completely infuriated her mother with her antics. She must have felt she gave up more than enough, especially since the prince of her choice (who also happened to love her and went as far as making proposals for their establishment) later on did become someone of 'sufficient' status, and she didn't have to obey whatever her mother wanted.

I read in one of the biographies of Maria Theresia that she was initially in favor of Charles of Zweibrucken but an intrigue, apparently made by Kaunitz, led her to disapprove of the match. It was said that since Charles was the heir presumptive of Zweibrucken and the Electorate of Bavaria, it would be bad politics for Amalia to marry him as there was a plan of 'grabbing' some of those lands for Austria.... and Maria Theresia didn't want to repeat history (when her husband was dispossessed of Lorraine in order to marry her). I don't know how true this is, but judging from later events, Austria was indeed interested in Bavaria and they wanted Charles not to inherit it.  No wonder Duke Charles August II hated Maria Theresia and Joseph and was embittered like Amalia, first they took away his Amalia and then they wanted his domain, too.  Oh, yes, and of course, the Bourbons were considered far more important by Maria Theresia.  I feel so sorry for Amalia and Charles.  They could've been King and Queen of Bavaria and happy together although Amalia did not seem to mind if he remained an  obscure prince.  Did royal marriages have to be approved by the Holy Roman Emperor or parental consent is needed then that's why the couple could not marry at all? I am not familiar with this. 

Also, I think Amalia's eccentricity did not start in Vienna. When their mother separated Carolina and Antoine in 1767 for being too childish and Carolina's lack of gentle manners and less than desirable application to her studies and in saying her prayers properly, she told Carolina to attach herself to Amalia instead of Antoine.  So I guess their mother  did see Amalia then as a "good example" to her younger sisters. I also think that Amalia was liked in the family even if she was rather raised alone instead of being paired off like the other girls-- it was said that they were definitely distressed to see her leave for Parma, just like when Carolina and Antoine left, too -- so I guess those 'nobody in her family ever liked her' statement was just a lie by the people she has offended once she arrived in Parma. If they didn't like her, they would certainly not be distressed about her leaving and be glad that she was now Parma's problem.    In fact, Antoine's scheduled departure for France was deliberately moved to an early hour to avoid the extent of distress that happened during Amalia's and Caroline's departures.  That doesn't sound like the departure of  an unliked daughter and sibling  to me. 
     


 

You mean her aunt Anna Charlotte?I what way was she eccentric?

In all the portraits I have seen of them,I really don't see that Amalia was less beautiful of all her sisters...in my opinion(based on the portrais though) she was the prettiest of them all,but that's just my opinion...

About her eccentric behaviour in Vienna:I really don't think she was much allowed to be eccentric,so I think as much as she was bored in Parma,she also felt free from every ''chain'' that she felt every day i Vienna and developed into an eccentric person..if you are bored,it's har not to be eccentric :-)

Yes, Anna (Anne) Charlotte, the sister of her father. In one book (by Mrs. Bearne on Maria Carolina) she was described as kind-hearted and eccentric but I'm not too sure in what way (it wasn't mentioned why).... perhaps because she spent too much time hunting and never ceased regretting the loss of Lorraine profoundly.  She was even willing to walk barefoot to Lorraine (presumably from Vienna)! 

I agree that Amalia would not have the opportunities to be eccentric in Vienna. I think their mother would not have permitted it. I read that the girls were raised almost nun-like and much of their time was spent in prayers and having lectures/instructions on obedience and docility.

I find Amalia's features a bit 'haughty' looking but beautiful nevertheless.  It seems to me that she was indeed the most glamorous-looking of the sisters, if not rated as the prettiest, especially in that portrait by Meytens. 

Her brother Joseph upon visiting Versailles commented on Amalia (he just finished describing Maria Carolina as) " this sister of mine  is a proficient Queen in the art of man-training. My other sister, the Duchess of Parma, is equally scientific in breaking-in horses for she is constantly at the stables with her grooms, by which she grooms a pretty sum yearly in buying, selling and breaking-in horses; while the simpleton, her husband, is ringing the bells with the friars of Colorno to call his good subjects to mass." (from the Secret Memoirs of the Princesse de Lamballe)

It would be hard for anyone to have such beauties, great intellectuals or outstanding talents in the family.  There seems nothing to distinguish her from her sisters although she's pretty, bright and decent in the arts. Perhaps her glamor?  Their mother also would also not have much time for them, being always pregnant and immersed in state affairs and I presume her free time would be spent with the favorites. I wonder if Amalia and her siblings were able to spend more time with their father?

I would like to read the contents of such letters too!  I can't imagine Maria Theresia being 'nice' in her letters to Amalia (perhaps when she gave birth to her son); she was very harsh in her letters to Marie Antoinette (one letter criticized her beauty as not being much and that she had neither great intellect nor talent--ouch!) so I can imagine perhaps how much harsher she was with Amalia and her antics in Parma.  I also read that Amalia and her mother were 'deceived' by very favorable reports on Ferdinand (much better than the reports on Fedinand of Naples), that he was cultured and well-educated but turned out to be otherwise.  No wonder Amalia went wild there!  (although I wish she could've accepted things gracefully like Caroline)

Does anyone know how Ferdinand was, besides being eccentric and simple? One of Maria Theresia's letters supposedly showed 'contempt' for Ferdinand and that she couldn't believe how gentle Isabella could have a brother like that...and that some men liked mistresses, others gambling, but this one... (she didn't continue so I presume she was too outraged or at a loss for words).  I'm very curious as to what she was referring to.   

I haven't come across anything that says Amalia was already eccentric before her marriage.  But their aunt Charlotte was so I guess being eccentric isn't that unheard of in their family.   

You are all very welcome!  Hope you all enjoy the book as I did!
That site has many other books on royals that can also be downloaded. I got the book on memoirs of Madame Campan from there, too.  

I would love to know about Amalia. If anyone can answer, I would be most delighted.....

I read that Amalia didn't feel much loved by mother and in one book on Maria Theresia, she was described as the child least loved by her.  I read somewhere that her mother would compare her to her older sisters, who were either more beautiful, intelligent or artistically gifted than her (I saw a picture of a painting of hers, she was quite talented). Of course, I would think their mother thought Mimi was 'best' among her children. Was she close to Elisabeth, the sister nearest in age? What about to Johanna or Josepha? I read that Antoinette could 'cope' with Amalia but not with Mimi so I guess she was kind to the younger ones, unlike Mimi.   

What exactly did she dislike about her husband? I know Ferdinand was younger and she was in love with someone else (Charles August of Zweibrucken who asked for her hand) but how bad was their marriage? How did her husband find her? They managed to be together for more than 30 years..... 

I wonder what Amalia felt when her daughter Caroline married Maximilian of Saxony, the younger brother of Amelia who became the wife of her old love.... I'm surprised she agreed to it, it must have been painful to be reminded of what might have been. And does anyone know what happened to her 4th child, Charlotte of Parma?   

I also wanted to ask how he was a person.... and would he had been a good match to Amalie of Austria? He was described as intelligent and good looking. I guess Amalie never got over her disappointment and that was probably one of the reasons why she 'rebelled' in Parma.
Thanks!

Hello, does anyone know what happened to Charles of Zweibrucken (1746-1795) who wanted to marry Archduchess Amalie of Austria ? He eventually married Amelia of Saxony in 1774. Was the marriage happy and did they have any children? Was there a son who died young? I know the throne went to his brother Maximilian, who eventually became the first king of Bavaria.

I find it interesting that Amalie of Austria's daughter (Caroline of Bourbon-Parma) eventually married Maximilian, the younger brother of Amelia
of Saxony.  It would have been a bit unusual to have the daughter of the woman you once loved as a sister in law.....

Any info would be appreciated!

The book on Maria Carolina is available on-line for free. I have downloaded it. Here's the link:

http://www.archive.org/details/sisterofmarieant00bearuoft

Enjoy!