Author Topic: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...  (Read 34151 times)

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Offline Helen_Azar

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... in her adulterous behavior with Thomas Culpepper? After all, you would have to have your head examined to do this willingly for the wife of King Henry VIII... knowing that this behavior is high treason for which the punishment is imminent death. Why would she do this? Was she an incurable romantic? Was she really unintelligent (stupid) or simply lost her mind? Or were there other, more compelling reasons? I think several theories exist, but I would like to hear your opinions. 
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 07:25:20 PM by Helen_A »

Offline Yseult

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2007, 11:02:39 PM »
Helen, do you remember the statement pronounced by Caroline Posonby Lamb about lord George Byron being "bad, mad and dangerous to know"? Well, I donīt know if George deserved this words, but Iīm not doubt Jane Parker Rochford was bad, mad and dangerous to know. A woman who falsely accused her husband of having commited incests with his own sister the queen is not the kind of woman to became lady of chamber of the next two wives of the king.

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2007, 01:54:04 AM »
Hi Yseult!

Well she obviously was that kind of woman, as she was lady in waiting to both Anne of Cleves and Katherine Howard. My guess is that she was regarded by Henry (or others) as potentially a good source of info.

in 1541 people must have been already wondering how long Henry would last and I can only see Viscountess Rochford's actions in this light, playing along with the Queen's schemes in case there was some reward, or waiting for a good moment to go running to Henry with the story (not an easy decision). Unfortunately the whole story came out prematurely, before (if we believe the story of Katherine and Culpeper) the affair had turned physical. This was because of the Dereham scandal which concerned goings on before the marriage.

So, I think la Rochford, probably was planning to tak a look at Henry's health at the end of 1542, and if it looked good, would have told him all about Culpeper, and reaped the rewards. Unfortunately she got the timing badly wrong and got caught on the wrong side.

Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Mari

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2007, 06:07:38 AM »
Many Writers consider Jane Boleyn a jealous vindicative Woman. Some mention that She had an unhappy Marriage with Anne Boleyn's Brother and testified to his incestuous relationship with Anne Boleyn for spite. She herself confessed  before her death, "God has permitted me to suffer this shameful doom as punishment for having contributed to my husband's death. I falsely accused him of loving in an incestuous manner, his sister, Queen Anne Boleyn. For this I deserve to die."

And that may be part of it...jealousy/spite...but all of this seems to be about Power and Position at Court. It looks to me that She had gained favor with Katherine Howard should She survive and had an out if She didn't later on. As Bell said "Unfortunately she got the timing badly wrong and got caught on the wrong side."
 

Offline dmitri

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2007, 09:20:19 AM »
Well I think the Howard family were very powerful and manipulative. The Duke of Norfolk was quite a piece of work. Certainly if his niece had fallen pregnant and had a son, whether it had been Henry VIII's or not it would have secured things very nicely for the Howard family and also have placed Mary one step further down in the line of succession. Power was everything and any attempt to obtain it was perhaps worth the risk. Certainly the axe finished off most of those foolish enough to presume they could get away with it all.   

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2007, 06:47:05 PM »
Even if Katherine howard had had a girl it would have been ahead of Mary in the succession. There were two reasons why she didn't have any children:

a) Henry was probably by this time impotent

b) She did not commit adultery with Culpeper (though they both admitted that they had planned this).
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline FaithWhiteRose

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2007, 08:39:19 PM »
... in her adulterous behavior with Thomas Culpepper? After all, you would have to have your head examined to do this willingly for the wife of King Henry VIII... knowing that this behavior is high treason for which the punishment is imminent death. Why would she do this? Was she an incurable romantic? Was she really unintelligent (stupid) or simply lost her mind? Or were there other, more compelling reasons? I think several theories exist, but I would like to hear your opinions. 

I think that after George's death she went insane, that it shook her up a little, even though she did accuse him of incest with Anne. I think George was a distant, reserved husband and this was how her jealousy was first launched; therefore, she probably, upset and without thinking, spread a rumor about George's supposed "incest", and Anne's enemies, trying to make her look even more bad than she already was at the moment, bought the story and reported it to the king. In short words, she lost her mind.

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2007, 08:50:40 AM »
Why would a child of Katherine Howard's, if it were a girl, be ahead of Mary in the line of succession?

Henry never put Elizabeth ahead of Mary.

Because Edward died young, Henry left his throne to his daughters in the order that they were born. Or Edward left the throne to his sisters in the order that his father had set up.

Would that have changed that for a child of Katherine Howard?

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2007, 01:19:41 PM »
Henry never put Elizabeth ahead of Mary.

Actually he did at one point. Later they were both proclaimed bastards...

_______________________________________


So, does anyone think that it's likely that the reason Jane encouraged the Katherine/Culpepper affair was because Katherine's uncle Norfolk had put her up to it, wanting Katherine to get pregnant, knowing that Henry will not be able to accomplish it? That would sort of make sense, in a weird way.

Alixz

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2007, 03:47:26 PM »
Helen,

 I see your point.  Elizabeth was put over Mary while the Boleyn was still in favor, but never before Edward.  However, I do think that Katherine Howard's uncle would have been that devious.  Imagine if she had succeeded in the subterfuge and had produced a son!  But of course since that is up to the male, then it would have been all Culpepper's doing.

But Henry would have been none the wiser and it makes one wonder who would be on the throne today!

Offline dmitri

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2007, 05:50:53 PM »
Yes a daughter by Howard would have been interesting. If she had remained Queen she would have been ahead of the two declared bastards after Edward's death. Wouldn't have Mary just have loved having to bow and scrape to yet another younger half-sister.

Offline FaithWhiteRose

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2007, 02:32:14 PM »
Wouldn't have Mary just have loved having to bow and scrape to yet another younger half-sister.

It would have drove her (mary) insane if such happened....

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2007, 04:49:11 PM »
Yes, In succession Mary would have been behind any daughters born to Anne of Cleves, Katherine Howard or Katherine Parr (but still ahead of Elizabeth! . She was never "relegitimised" by Henry, and in fact had to sign her agreement that her mother's marriage had been invalid. This happened shortly after the execution of Anne Boleyn, and was a precondition of her being able to return to court.
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Mari

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2007, 02:10:58 AM »
Since We are discussing Jane Boleyn and Katherine Howard one thing I am curious about is this...before Henry married Katherine Howard it was known by the Family and servants that Katherine had been less than circumspect. while living with the elderly Dowager Duchess of Norfolk " Firstly, she had been caught in a compromising position with Edward Manox, her music teacher, when she was thirteen. Katherine then formed a liaison with Francis Dereham  and he was a frequent visitor to the dormitory.( where Katherine and other girls slept) In fact, they had sworn before witnesses to marry each other as soon as she was older, and called each other "husband" and "wife". When he went on a journey to Ireland, he left his money in her possession, and made presents to her of clothing and jewelry. Katherine, in turn, bestowed sexual favors on him, going so far as to have intercourse with him in full view of the other people in the dormitory. "

My question is this Why in the World would the Duke of Norfolk knowing her past and knowing that it would come out at some point would he let her marry Henry? Could he not have sent her from Court? It seems to me he took as big a gamble as Jane Boleyn! And then would he not have had spies to watch over Catherine...would he have known about Culpepper? And would he have known about Jane Boleyn's part in it?

"Her great-aunt, the elderly Dowager Duchess of Norfolk, was arrested for a time for possible collusion in Katherine's early sexual indiscretions, but she was soon released. Her uncle, the Duke of Norfolk was not so lucky, but followed her to the block. He had evaded the axe years before in the matter of his other niece, Anne Boleyn by turning against her, but that tactic didn't work for him this time."
Information from this site:
www.geocities.com/soho/studios/1344/howard.html

Offline dmitri

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Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2007, 02:15:06 AM »
It was all about power and influence for the Howard family.