Author Topic: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg  (Read 84263 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
« Reply #105 on: August 28, 2007, 09:45:56 PM »
Bob's discussions were after the initial report was released to the press.

I'm still waiting to see the citation to this unknown "Japanese DNA" test being referred to.

If you mean the blood stain from the Otsu incident, the chain of custody for the relic indicates substantial contamination from handling over the years. It is not a reliable source of information.

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
« Reply #106 on: August 28, 2007, 09:52:57 PM »
Not according to the Japanese test, which is supported by the Russian Orthodox Church. I do not say that I believe it totally, but it did put a dent in its "absoluteness". One can close their eyes to the obvious, but we are discussing facts here. I sincerely hope that this time, there would not be a repeat of that.  :)

Eric you have failed to reveal which Japanese tests you are refering to which as you claim "revealed that the skull of Nicholas II is not him".

Indeed one can close their eyes after they have read what they failed to understand.

Margarita


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
« Reply #107 on: August 28, 2007, 09:56:39 PM »
Bob's discussions were after the initial report was released to the press.

I'm still waiting to see the citation to this unknown "Japanese DNA" test being referred to.

If you mean the blood stain from the Otsu incident, the chain of custody for the relic indicates substantial contamination from handling over the years. It is not a reliable source of information.

Those tests were flawed and were never published in any peer reviewed scientific journals in either the Russian or English languages.

Furthermore there was the legal problem of "legitimate possession of biological material" by the Japanese investigator.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 10:00:30 PM by Belochka »


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
« Reply #108 on: August 28, 2007, 10:12:49 PM »
Also,

Which makes more logical sense? The DNA test that is performed on George Alexandrovich, the provenance of the sample is unquestionable as it came from his tomb under controlled circumstances, which when tested PRECISELY matched that of the then "putative" Nicholas II sample found in Ekaterinburg down to a UNIQUE mutation

or

The questionable blood stain which had been contaminated over the years by mis handling that "surprise" didn't match Nicholas II? 

If you mean another test Eric, please cite  the specific work or drop this spurious line of discussion.


Offline Eric_Lowe

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 16999
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
« Reply #109 on: August 28, 2007, 11:52:28 PM »
Indeed I am not saying that I agree with it 100% yet the doubts lingers like there will always be people who thinks that Princess Diana was murdered. I am just making a point that I most sincerely hope the DNA test this time would be conclusive without the shadow of ANY doubt. I think you understand my logical reasoning here. As forum admin I think you should respect those who think differently than asking people to shut up (that is how I honestly feel here)   :o

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
« Reply #110 on: August 29, 2007, 08:35:41 AM »
Eric,

I believe that both FA and Belochka are saying that the DNA comparison with a provable and verifiable test source (Grand Duke George Alexandrovich) was 100% conclusive.

The Japanese test was done a sample that had been in Japan for over 100 years and had been kept under questionable circumstances and handled repeatedly by others.  After all after the Otsu incident and for almost a century, no one would ever have thought that keeping that blood stained cloth safe from contamination would matter.  Actually, I am surprised that is survived as long as it did.

The Russian Orthodox Church took an unusual stand in using that test to disprove the identity of the remains.  In any case, if one has three test results that match and one that doesn't, why would anyone accept that the three matching results were incorrect and the one non matching test was the correct answer.

That is like saying that if three school children add 2+2 and get 4 and one adds 2=2 and gets 5 that the one who got 5 is the correct one. !!  No doubt would enter any-one's mind that the three who got the answer 4 were wrong just because the other one got the answer 5.

8-)

Offline Lemur

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • reach for the top!
    • View Profile
Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
« Reply #111 on: August 29, 2007, 10:36:57 AM »
Quote
I think you should respect those who think differently than asking people to shut up (that is how I honestly feel here)

How can anyone be expected to respect an opinion that has been officially proven wrong and reduced to a conspiracy theory? Reality check time...

Alixz

  • Guest
Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
« Reply #112 on: August 29, 2007, 11:18:35 AM »
Lemur

I have looked back over several pages of posting and I can't find the quote you have used.

Who is telling whom to shut up??

Who's quote was that?

Thanks

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
« Reply #113 on: August 29, 2007, 12:19:05 PM »
Lemur

I have looked back over several pages of posting and I can't find the quote you have used.

Who is telling whom to shut up??

Who's quote was that?

Thanks


Alixz, it was from this quote from Eric_Lowe:

Indeed I am not saying that I agree with it 100% yet the doubts lingers like there will always be people who thinks that Princess Diana was murdered. I am just making a point that I most sincerely hope the DNA test this time would be conclusive without the shadow of ANY doubt. I think you understand my logical reasoning here. As forum admin I think you should respect those who think differently than asking people to shut up (that is how I honestly feel here)   :o

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
« Reply #114 on: August 29, 2007, 12:31:38 PM »
Eric, here is an excerpt from an article Margarita and I wrote last year, which discusses the Japanese results in detail. I hope this helps your understanding of this issue.

"In 1997 Professor Tatsuo Nagai apparently examined the Otsu handkerchief (Japanese museum relic) against the bone fragment presumed to belong to Nicholas II.[101] His examination occurred two years after Ivanov attempted to do the same but he decided against using a sample that was compromised through innocent handling (see Ivanov above) of the “relic” for at least a century. Since there is no mention of Nagai, or any of his results or of his experimental work in the Soloviev Commission 1998 Report, we must believe that Nagai conducted his assessment privately and not as an adjunct to the Russian government’s authorized forensic investigations. Nor were we able to locate any publications of Nagai’s results on the handkerchief during our extensive library searches.

The Imperial family was authenticated and buried but, Popov, after meeting Nagai at a conference, in direct contravention of the Procurator’s authority; suggested that Nagai collaborate with him to reassess the Imperial remains. This mutual agreement transpired soon after all the Soloviev investigations were completed.[102]  

For the scientific aspects of this study, the Nagai/Popov team analyzed the mtDNA sequence from a sample of hair, allegedly extracted from “Georgij [sic] Romanov”. They compared their results to those published by Ivanov in 1995, and observed “significant differences” at 13 positions: 320, 16093, 16126, 16169, 16223, 16278, 16294, 16296, 16298, 16325, 16327, 16356, and 16362. At all other positions their data matched Ivanov's profiles. They did not find C/T heteroplasmy at the position 16169, but did find it instead at 7 other positions: 16093, 16278, 16298, 16325, 16327, 16356, and 16362. They were unable to propose the cause for this discrepancy.
 
Overall, Nagai and Popov’s results make very little scientific sense, which may explain why they were never publicized and/or submitted for peer review for possible publication and translation in any international scientific journals that are accessible to the global scientific community. Such a standard expectation is the normal outcome for all legitimate scientific endeavors. It not only facilitates exposure of laboratory research conducted around the world, but promotes the evaluation of those results, especially if they may appear controversial. Essentially peer review is a technique that allows critical scrutiny of any investigator’s sampling, methodology and the conclusions reached, by a panel of experts in the field. Once the article is accepted for publication it then permits others to repeat or question the published results. We contend that such an evaluation would not have been in the best interest of Drs Nagai and Popov, for reasons, which will become more apparent in our discussions below.

What Nagai and Popov’s work actually revealed to us was that the samples they used were either contaminated with foreign DNA, (introduced by inappropriate handling of the tissue prior to any evaluation) - or that the samples belonged to an unknown individual. Furthermore, since there was no “chain of custody” described in their discussion, the question about the authenticity of their sample is open to doubt.

According to their abstract (# 118), [106] Nagai and Popov used “the usual methods” to examine mtDNA sequence from a sample believed to be Nicholas II’s perspiration stain (from his uniform), and from hair/nail/bone samples which belonged to Grand Duke George (Nicholas’s brother), as well as a blood sample from Tihon Kulikovskii (Nicholas’s and George’s nephew). Important note: scientists do not accept the vague expression “usual methods”. A complete description of the “Methodology” is normally mandatory. The reason for this information is very clear – it enables investigators critical information as to how a sample was processed in that laboratory. If there is a fundamental query, then the same methodology can be utilized by another laboratory to ensure repeatability of results.  The results Nagai obtained were reported by him to be “similar to those reported by Gill and Ivanov, except that heteroplasmy (C/T) was not found at the base position 16169”. Nagai seems to have attached great importance to the latter and goes on to state in the same abstract: “thus arises [sic] the question of whose bone was examined by Pater [sic] Gill et al. and Pavel L. Ivanov et al. Who is buried in the grave of the Peter and Paul Cathedral at [sic] St. Petersburg?”

One of the more disturbing aspects of this particular project was that nowhere in the abstract there was there any mention of the “7 heteroplasmies” or 13 other discrepancies in the mtDNA sequence previously “discovered” by Nagai and Popov in 1999!
(continued...)

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
« Reply #115 on: August 29, 2007, 12:32:24 PM »
Effectively, Nagai and Popov were not able to match their own previous results using the same hair sample, nor were they able to match their previous results to Tihon Kulikovskii’s mtDNA.  This should have alerted them that they had a problem with their analysis: either with the first (1999) or the second (2001) set of estimations. The hair sample allegedly removed from Grand Duke George offered contradictory results, and did not correlate with the mtDNA profiles of the Grand Duke, analyzed in the United States Armed Forces Institute of Pathology by Professor Ivanov. According to their 2001 results, the only discrepancy was that Nagai and Popov were unable to detect heteroplasmy at position 16169 during the course of their investigations. 

In Japan, Nagai received some hair samples from Popov (notably not from the legal Russian government custodian of the remains Vladimir Soloviev) and proceeded to extract mtDNA from the sample. The profile he obtained was matched against Ivanov’s published photographic mtDNA profiles, and was not directly compared in parallel with a real mtDNA profile, as would have been the accepted standard protocol.

The paper that Nagai and Popov published jointly in 1999 in a Japanese journal called “Igaku to Seibutsugaku”[103] was never translated into either English or Russian, which would have been prudent, since their results affected Russian and English speaking investigators. This data remains obscure since it was only published in Japanese hence is not readily searchable in scientific databases (which can only sense Latin characters). Therefore it also continues to be unavailable to a wider audience. We had this paper translated into English (with thanks to Mr. Junichi Hayashi) and will summarize it here.
The first thing that was pointed out to us by our Japanese translator was that there was a discrepancy between the Japanese title and the English translation. The Japanese title reads: “DNA identification of Georgij Romanov, a direct [genetic] elder brother of Nicholas II, the last Russian Tsar: Sequence of mitochondrial DNA” [See Figure 1]. The English title, significantly, does not use the term “elder brother”: “DNA identification of Georgij Romanovs, a direct brother of the Russian Tsar Nicolas II: Sequence of mitochondrial DNA.” In the Japanese language, unlike in English and most other languages, the terms for “younger brother” and “older brother” are completely different from each other. The Japanese title in this case specifically refers to the “elder brother”. In fact, the very first sentence states that: “Georgij [sic] Romanov was the real elder brother of the Russian Empire's last Tsar Nicholas II, but he had tuberculosis and was sick and weak, so his real younger brother Nicholas II became the Russian Tsar”.  This historic inaccuracy is a minor point indeed but it did set the tone of their investigations with such an unfortunate start.


There is more, if you are interested in reading it, Eric. The original article was published in European Royal History Journal and can also be found online: http://www.geocities.com/mushkah/Nagai.html

I hope this helps with your doubts about the Japanese results.

Offline Lisa

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1464
  • Alix & Ella
    • View Profile
Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
« Reply #116 on: August 29, 2007, 03:10:50 PM »
I have a question. Excuse me if it has been already posted...:-\
Why Sokolov didn't find the bodies  (of the 2 graves) ?

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
« Reply #117 on: August 29, 2007, 03:15:53 PM »
I have a question. Excuse me if it has been already posted...:-\
Why Sokolov didn't find the bodies  (of the 2 graves) ?

My guess is that at the time he didn't know where to look, and in any case thought that the bodies had been destroyed.

Offline Lisa

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1464
  • Alix & Ella
    • View Profile
Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
« Reply #118 on: August 29, 2007, 03:22:35 PM »
I remember that he found some ashes... But did he really dig, or as you said he considered that the bodies where destroyed and was satisfied by this?

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
« Reply #119 on: August 29, 2007, 03:25:13 PM »
I remember that he found some ashes... But did he really dig, or as you said he considered that the bodies where destroyed and was satisfied by this?

I think that's what he wrote in his report, that the bodies had been destroyed and only very little was left, such as the finger that he found... It seems that for some reason he didn't question that.