Author Topic: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors  (Read 63836 times)

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Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
« on: August 27, 2007, 07:34:29 AM »
Now the remains of Alexei and his unidentified sister have been found (I don't know whether I think it's Anastasia or Maria), does anyone know the reaction of the die hard AA was AN supporters, plus supporters who believed in an Alexei claimant, particularly those who wrote books, articles, etc about the case? I'm thinking particularly of Peter Kurth and J Kendrick as being the most prominent I know of, but I know there are others.

I'm most interested in AA and I would love to know believers' take on the discoveries and whether they have any light to shed on how AA managed to be so convincing now the real truth is out. These are the people who met AA and spoke with her, who were taken in by her and have access to all of the evidence in the case, and now we all know for sure that there were no survivors, it would be interesting to look at the case from the other way around - looking backwards from the truth to see how it was pulled off rather than there still being this insistence that there could be a possibility of it being true.

Any info on this would be gratefully appreciated.

Rachel
xx
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 07:00:38 PM by Forum Admin »
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Offline Lemur

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2007, 09:46:12 AM »
Quote
looking backwards from the truth to see how it was pulled off rather than there still being this insistence that there could be a possibility of it being true.

This is what many on this forum have tried to do for a long time but were never able to because people still kept coming in insisting she was AN. What will the believers say? I have serious doubt any of them will ever admit it or give up. They will only make new conspiracy theories. We can only wait and see if any post here. Good idea for a thread.

Offline Amanda_Misha

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2007, 07:36:14 PM »
Perhaps they would say that the rest are false or that it is a conspiracy ???
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Offline Foxglove

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2007, 07:46:50 PM »
To be frank- if AA supporters don't even believe the DNA tests, then I doubt most will believe that the bodies of Alexei and the unknown daughter have been found, either, even if DNA testing should prove positive results. They will continue to cling to their conspiracy theories, and will come up with more elaborate explanations about "chain of custody," Queen Elizabeth's hand in switching results, or mysterious men in black burying burned bones into the ground.

Offline PrincessSophie

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2007, 10:35:59 PM »
To be frank- if AA supporters don't even believe the DNA tests, then I doubt most will believe that the bodies of Alexei and the unknown daughter have been found, either, even if DNA testing should prove positive results. They will continue to cling to their conspiracy theories, and will come up with more elaborate explanations about "chain of custody," Queen Elizabeth's hand in switching results, or mysterious men in black burying burned bones into the ground.

First of all, Foxglove, welcome to this forum.

I am also a newbie, so I am still learning.  I hope you will be tolerant of my ignorance.  But, how do you know how people will react (AA supporters or not) to this news?  I classify myself an agnostic on both sides - which is to say neutral.  I would feel more comfortable if there was DNA confirmation that these are not the bodies of countless other children that the Bolsheviks murdered.  But, hey, that's me!

I hope this news - either way - will be forthcoming.

Sophie

Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2007, 11:12:09 PM »
Hmmmm......nice to see the header for this section of the forum changed before we even have a hint of any DNA results. Guess we know what the new orthodoxy is going to be.

Having said that, at first glance it looks like mystery finally solved & jolly good thing too.  For those interested in what line the new conspiracy theory might take I'd refer them to Russian exile reaction to news of the arrests for the murder of Anna Politkovskaya - a friend (alas I did not get his name but he was based in London) said on the BBC last night something to the effect that it was all very convenient for the Russian Government who were experts at forging and fixing evidence.  Now all we have to do is think why the finding of the remains at this particular time is convenient for the Russian Government and we can start alleging rigged evidence etc.

Phil Tomaselli

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2007, 11:34:47 PM »
Please note that the section change was not made by me. While I have agreed not to discuss the discovery any further, I think I can say that the management of the Forum believes the missing remains have been located.

However, and this is important, I am still moderating this section and I am not at all about "orthodoxy".

Offline Belochka

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2007, 12:06:39 AM »
...   For those interested in what line the new conspiracy theory might take I'd refer them to Russian exile reaction to news of the arrests for the murder of Anna Politkovskaya - a friend (alas I did not get his name but he was based in London) said on the BBC last night something to the effect that it was all very convenient for the Russian Government who were experts at forging and fixing evidence.  Now all we have to do is think why the finding of the remains at this particular time is convenient for the Russian Government and we can start alleging rigged evidence etc.

Phil Tomaselli

What a silly idea the BBC segment sprung on its audience. One could attach all kinds of silly conspiracies to specific world events and then attempt to convince their audience that it was plausible.

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Offline CorisCapnSkip

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2007, 03:15:26 AM »
Exactly what I wondered.  Guess we'll have to wait until anything is determined about the remains and then see what updates Peter Kurth makes to his website.

Offline Foxglove

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2007, 03:35:10 AM »
To be frank- if AA supporters don't even believe the DNA tests, then I doubt most will believe that the bodies of Alexei and the unknown daughter have been found, either, even if DNA testing should prove positive results. They will continue to cling to their conspiracy theories, and will come up with more elaborate explanations about "chain of custody," Queen Elizabeth's hand in switching results, or mysterious men in black burying burned bones into the ground.

First of all, Foxglove, welcome to this forum.

I am also a newbie, so I am still learning.  I hope you will be tolerant of my ignorance.  But, how do you know how people will react (AA supporters or not) to this news?  I classify myself an agnostic on both sides - which is to say neutral.  I would feel more comfortable if there was DNA confirmation that these are not the bodies of countless other children that the Bolsheviks murdered.  But, hey, that's me!

I hope this news - either way - will be forthcoming.

Sophie

Thank you for the welcome, Sophie. :) I was over on another forum and I got a taste of what some (not all) AA supporters think about this latest discovery. They are all ready very skeptical about these remains (which is normal, as I have some skepticism, too, until DNA results come in), but a few are all ready implying not-so-subtly that someone planted the remains there. As I previously mentioned, AA supporters do not hold credence in the DNA results on AA, so how would this be different for them? If the results are positive, and these remains will prove to be the missing children, AA supporters will have to believe that the previous DNA testing on AA was also correct, and I guess in effect, stop being an AA supporter? If they continue to believe in AA, then by conclusion, they will disregard the new tests (should they be positive), and continue to explain away by using elaborate theories, which they have done in the past (as I have read many a times).

Offline PrincessSophie

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2007, 05:17:54 AM »
To be frank- if AA supporters don't even believe the DNA tests, then I doubt most will believe that the bodies of Alexei and the unknown daughter have been found, either, even if DNA testing should prove positive results. They will continue to cling to their conspiracy theories, and will come up with more elaborate explanations about "chain of custody," Queen Elizabeth's hand in switching results, or mysterious men in black burying burned bones into the ground.

First of all, Foxglove, welcome to this forum.

I am also a newbie, so I am still learning.  I hope you will be tolerant of my ignorance.  But, how do you know how people will react (AA supporters or not) to this news?  I classify myself an agnostic on both sides - which is to say neutral.  I would feel more comfortable if there was DNA confirmation that these are not the bodies of countless other children that the Bolsheviks murdered.  But, hey, that's me!

I hope this news - either way - will be forthcoming.

Sophie

Thank you for the welcome, Sophie. :) I was over on another forum and I got a taste of what some (not all) AA supporters think about this latest discovery. They are all ready very skeptical about these remains (which is normal, as I have some skepticism, too, until DNA results come in), but a few are all ready implying not-so-subtly that someone planted the remains there. As I previously mentioned, AA supporters do not hold credence in the DNA results on AA, so how would this be different for them? If the results are positive, and these remains will prove to be the missing children, AA supporters will have to believe that the previous DNA testing on AA was also correct, and I guess in effect, stop being an AA supporter? If they continue to believe in AA, then by conclusion, they will disregard the new tests (should they be positive), and continue to explain away by using elaborate theories, which they have done in the past (as I have read many a times).

Yes, Foxglove, you are right on many levels.  In all this, my heart goes out to the Romanov family.  For me, that is the bottomline.  I have lost nearly all the people I love in recent years and I cannot imagine the grief, despair and anger I would feel to have the loss faced by this family and then have to deal with people upon people masquerading as people I have lost.  The other thing I believe is that the Bolsheviks were ruthless killers and, in view of this, I doubt any one of the royal family survived their attack.  On the other hand, I would love to believe they had.  Particularly the children - who cannot, in my view, be blamed for anything the Tsar allegedly did.  I s'pose it is this hope that holds out.  This hope does not, however, extend to frauds and conmen.  In the Romanov's place, I would - at least figuratively speaking - happily shoot these people myself.  But I would still love to believe that Anastasia and Alexie escaped somehow.

Yes, I am a dreamer.
Sophie

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2007, 09:19:32 AM »
Hmmmm......nice to see the header for this section of the forum changed before we even have a hint of any DNA results. Guess we know what the new orthodoxy is going to be.

Having said that, at first glance it looks like mystery finally solved & jolly good thing too.  For those interested in what line the new conspiracy theory might take I'd refer them to Russian exile reaction to news of the arrests for the murder of Anna Politkovskaya - a friend (alas I did not get his name but he was based in London) said on the BBC last night something to the effect that it was all very convenient for the Russian Government who were experts at forging and fixing evidence.  Now all we have to do is think why the finding of the remains at this particular time is convenient for the Russian Government and we can start alleging rigged evidence etc.

Phil Tomaselli

I posted this in another thread, it seems worth repeating here:

Many have their doubts, awaiting the DNA testing, as they believe that only DNA can answer the question.  Now don't misunderstand me, as you all well know I am a staunch proponent of DNA testing. HOWEVER, I am also a staunch proponent of logic and reason.

So, here is what we know, for certain, pending the DNA results:

1. Two bodies have been found. Two bodies were missing.
2.  A male of the correct age and female of the correct age were found.
3.  These two bodies were found 70 metres from the mass burial site.
4.  Yurovsky accurately described the exact location where the bodies were found.
5.  Nagant bullets were found with the remains, which EXACTLY match the same Nagant bullets from the mass burial site.
6.  Pieces of japanese jars containing japanese made sulfuric acid were found which EXACTLY match the pieces of similar jars found in the                  mass burial site
7.  Yurovsky et al all describe the procuring and use of this acid during the attempted burning and burial process.
8.  Large amounts of burnt material and ash were found at the same layer as the remains.  This is further consistent with all known accounts.
9.  A piece of clothing (called a dress fragment) was found.  From "Last Act of a Tragedy":
"G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers."

For anyone with doubts, pending the DNA testing, I respect your position as I do clearly understand it, BUT, I would love for someone of that postion to please demonstrate some logic or reason WHY these remains could be somebody ELSE than Alexei and the missing Grand Duchess.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 09:00:31 PM by Forum Admin »

Offline Rachael89

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2007, 01:09:59 PM »
I use to beleive in a slim possibility of there being survivors, I even use to beleive in AA untill I began to see her as a sad, deranged woman whose real life must of obviously been so unbearable she had to adopt another - I had stopped truly beleving her story before I read about the new discovery. I posted about it here a few times but found I was hurt by how people shot me down in flames and ridiculed me every time. I cancelled my membership twice because I felt like I was hated for every time whatever I said was torn to shreds and titterred at. I later rejoined and simply determined to stop posting in the survivor forum and lately I have posted infrequently until I heard about the discovery of the remains. I didn't beleive in AA or other survivors to be contrary or stubborn, I wasn't mad, but because I was so unberably saddened by the thought that none of them could of survived I truly wanted to beleive that whilst there were still two bodies missing there remained a slight possibility one of them could of survived. Even if it was in retrospect a foolish thing to beleive in it seemed like a good hope to cling to at the time.

Now that the two bodies have been found, and unless it is proven otherwise by DNA tests I am convinced these are the bodies of Alexei and his sister, I am perfectly happy to accept that they all died together on July 17th 1918. Now I'm a bit older I am happy to know this as I now beleive it would of been crueller for one of them to have survived and lived alone rather than them all dying together as they did.

Rachael

P.S. I think Rachel meant by her question only high profile supporters of AA or survivors, but I wished to attempt to show how those who took the possibility of survivors seriously are not as idiotically stubborn or clinging as many people seem to beleive.
It's not fair!

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2007, 01:57:28 PM »
Rachel,

I, as I have said may times in the couple of years I have been posting, always wanted to believe that there were survivors of the murders.

I began studying the Romanovs in 1964 when AA was still having her day in court.

I wanted to believe The Hunt for the Czar by Guy Richards.  In his book he mentions that "my dear Fox" was related to a Van Rensselaer who fought in the American Revolution.  I am related to a Van Rensselaer Lewis and I wanted more than you know for this "Fox" person to have rescued the Imperial Family and to be (in my dreams) somehow to be related to me.

Over the years many things happened including the finding of the big gave in the 1990s.  But when it was said that Anastasia and Alexis were not in the grave, hope springs eternal, and I still wanted to believe.

However, I am also a realist.  Yurovsky had no reason to lie about what was done on that night in 1918.  And now his words have been proven to be true.

Why now?  Who knows?  Why not years ago?  Again, who knows?  The Bolsheviks were nothing if not thorough in their elimination of the members of the Imperial Family whom they could reach in 1917 and 1918.

It would not make a lot of sense for them to have bungled this murder.  Although they did bungle the three days after the murder and the concealment of the bodies but then they were excellent murderers, just not excellent at hiding what they did.

So even though it tears at my heart, I see no other conclusion but that all of the members of the Imperial Family and their entourage have now been found.  Even without DNA, the compostion of the findings and the fact that they match Yurovsky's memo make it hard not to believe.  As FA has said.

However, I never truly believed that AA was AN.  She was too uncouth and unkempt and rude and plain nasty.  I know that Anastasia was said to be the "wag' of the family and had a "potty mouth", but I could never see the actions of AA as the actions of a true Russian Grand Duchess.

:-(



Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2007, 04:01:15 PM »
Forum Admin

You make extremely cogent points.  As one who has always thought that the "official" story was probably pretty much correct (though having many quibbles over the details and a peculiar desire to be able to find a genuine survivor) I have to say that DNA seems to have become the be all and end all of any arguments, so perhaps we're allowed to fall back on it ourselves as a final escape clause.......

Still looks like the last two have been finally located though, and than heavens for that.

Well done (on the assumption the DNA pans out) to all involved.

Phil Tomaselli