Author Topic: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors  (Read 63938 times)

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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2007, 04:13:05 PM »
Now the remains of Alexei and his unidentified sister have been found (I don't know whether I think it's Anastasia or Maria), does anyone know the reaction of the die hard AA was AN supporters, plus supporters who believed in an Alexei claimant, particularly those who wrote books, articles, etc about the case? I'm thinking particularly of Peter Kurth and J Kendrick as being the most prominent I know of, but I know there are others.

I'm most interested in AA and I would love to know believers' take on the discoveries and whether they have any light to shed on how AA managed to be so convincing now the real truth is out. These are the people who met AA and spoke with her, who were taken in by her and have access to all of the evidence in the case, and now we all know for sure that there were no survivors, it would be interesting to look at the case from the other way around - looking backwards from the truth to see how it was pulled off rather than there still being this insistence that there could be a possibility of it being true.

Any info on this would be gratefully appreciated.

Rachel
xx

Rachel, going back to your original question, my guess is that the most ardent "survivor theorists" (and they know who they are) will probably use the same reasoning as they have been all along, i.e. "DNA tests are unreliable", "Russians can't be trusted", "no one connected to the case can be trusted", etc. I don't see why this new development will change anything or make them have any other kind of a reaction. I certainly don't see them coming out and saying "I was mistaken all along" and moving on.


Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2007, 04:22:07 PM »
I was directing this post at high profile supporters of survivor theories, those that put their theories out into the public domain. Not those individuals who have expressed doubts or wished for there to have been survivors. I used to be one of those myself, after all.

I won't be 100% satisfied with these latest findings until we get the DNA results, but circumstantially, it all adds up as far as I'm concerned. I can understand where those who have believed in survivors are coming from - before there were no bodies, there was a genuine possibility that an escape could have happened. An unlikely possibility, sure, but a possibility all the same.

In my experience, the younger the Romanov fan, the more likely they are to believe that there were survivors, simply for the romance factor. When I first came to find out about the Romanovs, I was around 10, and I believed because I couldn't handle the thought that innocent children had been killed. As I got older, that sentimental side didn't come into it as much.

I'm seriously interested in finding out how high profile supporters are going to back their way out of the hole they have made for themselves, if they agree that they need to back out, that is.

Rachel
xx

I suggest all Ally Pally Posters just throw them a rope and pull them up out of the hole if they want to come.  No need to say "I told you so".

TampaBay

TB:

I don't think anyone needs a rope or is in a hole.  There is indeed no need ever to say "I told you so." Educated, reasonable people LEARN and GROW and change their opinions.  We all make mistakes.  We must be gracious to those who have erred in the past and understand their errors.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2007, 04:29:12 PM »
I suggest all Ally Pally Posters just throw them a rope and pull them up out of the hole if they want to come.  No need to say "I told you so".

TampaBay

TB:

I don't think anyone needs a rope or is in a hole.  There is indeed no need ever to say "I told you so." Educated, reasonable people LEARN and GROW and change their opinions.  We all make mistakes.  We must be gracious to those who have erred in the past and understand their errors.


I don't think it will  even be necessary for anyone to have be gracious, because (call me a cynic) I have a feeling it will just be business as usual ;-)

Offline Kransnoeselo

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2007, 05:37:48 PM »
While I think most of us would hope that the remains of Alexei and Anastasia (Maria) have been found for the sake of closure, I do believe reserve must be used until genetic testing can be done.  There was a vaguely similar report two or three years ago that shards of bones and charred ewelry beads had been found which turned out to be nothing of import. As long as genetic testing is perforrmed and matched with the samples of Prince Philip and the remains found in Ekaterinburg then this case can finally be laid to rest.

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2007, 05:40:05 PM »
Perhaps you may be correct Helen.  However, one can have hope.  Bob's contacts and conversations have convinced him beyond a doubt that the DNA testing will prove the statements made in Ekaterinburg to be true.  Much is misunderstood by those who have doubts, but we have nothign more to say at this time aside from that.  Our current position is not something "jumping to conclusions" or rushing to judgment.  WE believe that in the long run, we made the correct decision as will be demonstrated by the DNA (providing there is hopefully sufficient viable DNA in the remains or especially the teeth.)  As a result, that will be the policy of the Forum towards discussion.

It is our hope and goal that the DNA testing will put a final end to the often contentious attitudes towards the missing children and the Ekaterinburg murders.  An entire new era of scholarship and study can now take place with this one mystery put to rest once and for all.

There are still those who believe the Earth is flat, that Neil Armstrong's moonwalk was staged, and Elvis Lives, such is life.


Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2007, 05:50:51 PM »
What more would there be to say once this find is confirmed? Other than, of course some book "proving" the falsity of the findings.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2007, 07:49:32 PM »
Well, with the Romanovs, there is always something more to say- whatever it turns out to be from either perspective, those who support imposters and those who don't.I think that the supporters of imposters will just go on as they always have, because people believing what they want to believe is just human nature, and as old as time, and besides, who wants to admit they are wrong? There was of course even before this discovery ample proof no one survived that July night. This discovery is certainly the real deal though.

Offline RichC

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2007, 09:38:21 PM »
I owe an apology to Dmitri A. Muratov and to RichC and to forum members for suggesting that Dmitri A. Muratov was a Russian exile in London - I can only plead that it was only the reference to the duplicity of the Russian Government that caused me to give the item my full attention.

Having said that, the fact that the Russian Government can be accused of such gross duplicity without it being obviously ridiculous suggests to me that they will all too easily be accused of rigging these findings by those keen to suggest a fraud.

Do not forget that there are people who post on this board who think that MI5 murdered Princess Diana.........people who can barely spell MI5 let alone understand their history & function.

Phil Tomaselli 


How on Earth can you say the idea that the Russian government might be guilty of gross duplicity is "obviously ridiculous"?   What makes them so special? 

Sovereign governments engage in "gross duplicity" all the time -- if it is in their interests.  Did you ever hear of the WMD's in Iraq that nobody ever found?  The whole purpose of going to war over there was made up!  That was "gross duplicity" by a sovereign governement.

You cannot compare the "rigging of these findings" with the assassination of a Russian journalist.

Russian government rigging findings of last two bodies = obviously ridiculous

Russian government having a role in death of independent journalist = VERY POSSIBLE

And how can you compare the death of Anna Politkovskaya with Diana?  Are you not aware that Polikovskaya was shot three times at point-blank range in the elevator of her own apartment building?  Politkovskaya wasn't some politically immaterial jet setter with major psychological issues.  She was one of the best things about modern Russia -- she called for justice, transparency and honesty.  What she did was heroic -- and she paid with her life.

Politkovskaya was a major critic of Putin and his government.  Check out her book, Putin's Russia: Life in a Failing Democracy.  Her final book, published postumously in May 2007 is titled, A Russian Diary: A Journalist's Final Account of Life, Corruption, and Death in Putin's Russia.

Anna Politkovskaya herself predicted that she might be assassinated by her enemies.  This included Putin and his cronies.  Shortly before she was killed, she wrote, "...I am an incorrigible enemy, not amenable to re-education.

I'm not joking. Some time ago, Vladislav Surkov, Putin's deputy chief of staff, explained that there were people who were enemies but whom you could talk sense into, and there were incorrigible enemies who simply needed to be "cleansed" from the political arena.

So they are trying to cleanse it of me and others like me.
"

You do owe Mr. Muratov an apology, Phil Tomaselli, but not because you mistook him for a Russian exile, but because of your unjust comments on this board about the investigation into the death of Anna Politkovskaya.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 09:51:53 PM by RichC »

Offline Annie

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2007, 10:04:37 PM »
Rachael89, I absolutely agree with everything you said except for there being cruelty and ridicule on the forums.  I found the members here to be most helpful in debunking possibilities I raised without attacking me personally, which sadly cannot be said of all forums on any subject.

You are right, Capt, and the problem I'm afraid has been that people here have been debunking possibilities without attacking anyone personally, but unfortunately some of the people were defensive.  They took it as 'cruelty' to be told that their position was incorrect, and as a 'personal attack' to be told that there were valid reasons why what they were saying and and believing wasn't true. I don't believe anyone has ever been 'attacked for their views', though views have been attacked, this is necessary to explain why they aren't true.  A lot of people incorrectly took it the wrong way when all the members were trying to was help them understand- just as you said. This is a discussion forum about history. When a new poster comes here asking if Anna Anderson was really Anastasia, they had to hear the answer, no. For some, that was some kind of 'attack', but for others, like you, it was useful and interesting information, which was the way it was intended.

That sums up about exactly what has happened here. People getting offended has caused a lot of fights and closed threads but no one ever meant to attack anybody personally.

Rachael89, I absolutely agree with everything you said except for there being cruelty and ridicule on the forums.  I found the members here to be most helpful in debunking possibilities I raised without attacking me personally, which sadly cannot be said of all forums on any subject.  I do feel a little silly now to have believed in survivors--on some level did even at the time--but I wanted to believe in that possibility or at least see it soundly disproven, not just attacked by people who didn't want to believe, and it's obvious many converts have been made here.  On the other hand, certainly it would be cruel for anyone to have survived such treatment and terrible memories, and then have their identity disputed.  May they all rest in peace together.

My experiences came quite a while ago, around a year or two  so I am sure things changed since but I haven't really checked to see I don't know. I think I just hated the fact that my views were ridiculed mercilessly, it was really a very childish, impulsive response but I remember feeling very hurt by how no one ever seemed to take what I said seriously. I understand why people dismissed my views so easily now, and I don't feel hurt about it anymore.

Rachael

Rachael I am sorry if I am one you felt that way about. We were just coming from two different places and perhaps misunderstanding how the other felt. You may have come here with some of the very stereotypical AA info you see online, she knew this, this matched that, and so on, and you accepted it outright, then came here to discuss it. Some of us who had been through i tall over and over for many years and through many posters saw it as "oh no here we go again" and had to start the same debunking to the same old lists of "proof" that keeps going around. I know it sounds bad to you, but to some of us it was actually like an old running joke and felt the need to drag out all the anti-AA artillery to shoot holes in all the weak theories the supporters keep perpetuating. IN doing this, nobody intended to hurt the person on the other side of the posts, only to make the last of the AA myth finally go away. Because we knew for a fact AA was a fake, there is no way to be objective about it, if you believe in AA you are on the wrong side. I am glad  you don't feel hurt anymore, because it wasn't anything personal against you and nobody meant to hurt you.

Also, not all of the AA supporters were as innocent or as nice as you. Some of them have been mean and vicious to those who don't believe in AA, in more intentionally hurtful, even personal, ways. You wouldn't believe some of the personal insults and intentionally hurtful remarks I have recieved in PMs from AA supporters, or seen posted on the old "Legends" forum aimed at me.(or someone they think is me when it wasn't, at one time they were so paranoid they blamed me for about 8 people who weren't me) It has been very wild and rough at times.

 CorisCaptSkip, I am glad to know that our debunking helped you see the light and that you didn't get offended. You came to an educational site for answers and were not upset they might not have been the ones you were looking for but accepted them and learned. That's why we're all here, to learn.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 10:12:33 PM by Annie »

Offline CorisCapnSkip

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2007, 12:46:40 AM »
Obviously I was not as well-read as many people, and the things I saw emphasized the similarities and downplayed the differences or left them out entirely.  What convinced me was the issue of languages, even more than DNA.  The Russian Imperial Family were fluent in both English and Russian, which Anna Anderson didn't even know until she had time to learn them and then never spoke like a native.  You'd have to grasp at something really wild such as "foreign accent syndrome" due to brain damage to begin to explain this.  No matter what trauma Anastasia had been through, she would retain languages she was raised speaking--not one (German) in which she'd had only a few lessons.

Offline PrincessSophie

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2007, 02:12:55 AM »
Well, with the Romanovs, there is always something more to say- whatever it turns out to be from either perspective, those who support imposters and those who don't.I think that the supporters of imposters will just go on as they always have, because people believing what they want to believe is just human nature, and as old as time, and besides, who wants to admit they are wrong? There was of course even before this discovery ample proof no one survived that July night. This discovery is certainly the real deal though.

Imperial Angel, you are right.  I don't believe anyone - in their gut - believes anyone survived that terrible night.  However, I also don't believe that anyone deliberately sets out to support imposters and conmen - who, by their very nature - take advantage of people's weaknesses; which in this case is holding out hope (in spite of all the logic and evidence in the world) that somehow one or more of the Romanov's survived.  They are basically decent people.  Sure they are dreamers but isn't there space on this planet for dreamers as well as people who are hard realists?  I hope there is.

Sophie

Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2007, 03:40:47 AM »
I was directing this post at high profile supporters of survivor theories, those that put their theories out into the public domain. Not those individuals who have expressed doubts or wished for there to have been survivors. I used to be one of those myself, after all.

I won't be 100% satisfied with these latest findings until we get the DNA results, but circumstantially, it all adds up as far as I'm concerned. I can understand where those who have believed in survivors are coming from - before there were no bodies, there was a genuine possibility that an escape could have happened. An unlikely possibility, sure, but a possibility all the same.

In my experience, the younger the Romanov fan, the more likely they are to believe that there were survivors, simply for the romance factor. When I first came to find out about the Romanovs, I was around 10, and I believed because I couldn't handle the thought that innocent children had been killed. As I got older, that sentimental side didn't come into it as much.

I'm seriously interested in finding out how high profile supporters are going to back their way out of the hole they have made for themselves, if they agree that they need to back out, that is.

Rachel
xx

I suggest all Ally Pally Posters just throw them a rope and pull them up out of the hole if they want to come.  No need to say "I told you so".

TampaBay

TB:

I don't think anyone needs a rope or is in a hole.  There is indeed no need ever to say "I told you so." Educated, reasonable people LEARN and GROW and change their opinions.  We all make mistakes.  We must be gracious to those who have erred in the past and understand their errors.


Oh I agree. I probably shouldn't have used that turn of phrase. I think a lot of us on here have believed in a survivor theory at some point. I certainly have. But I grew up, I learned a lot more about the world around me, and I realised I was, in all likelihood, wrong. So I changed my mind. I am perfectly happy to accept and support those who realise they may have been mistaken.

On the suggestion of another poster who kindly alerted me to a place where I could find the reactions of survivor theory supporters, amongst them one of the people I mentioned in my first post, I have been able to see responses like those I asked for.  I was unsurprised to find that the same 'it's all a conspiracy' talk is still alive and well. One person went as far to suggest that the Koptiyaki forest is 'littered' with dead bodies. I wonder why that would be? There is also much talk of it being a 'convenient' time for the Russian government to release this news. I can't think of a genuinely convincing reason as to why the Russian government would see this as a good PR stunt - as most of us have already said, no one but those with an existing interest in the Romanovs really cares, or even knows what has happened, or its significance, to boot.

Sensible, rational people wait for sensible, rational proof. And as I said before, I won't be 100% satisfied until I see DNA results. But, logic and circumstantial evidence suggest that these are indeed the remains of the missing Romanovs. However, sensible, logical and rational unfortunately do not apply to all people. And that is where ludicrous theoreticians come from. I predict the UK newspapers will be full of all the old 'it was a conspiracy; Diana was killed' nonsense around the 10th anniversary of her death services, etc. Because, of course, Diana was such a threat to the power of the British monarchy. That power that was taken away...about 450 years ago. Those kinds of people will never be satisfied with any proof as long as they want to believe in the conspiracy. And the level of delusion demonstrated by many I have seen around and about suggests that the wish to believe will never go away.

Rachel
xx
'History teaches that history teaches us nothing' ~ Hegel

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2007, 09:00:00 AM »
[

Sensible, rational people wait for sensible, rational proof. And as I said before, I won't be 100% satisfied until I see DNA results. But, logic and circumstantial evidence suggest that these are indeed the remains of the missing Romanovs. However, sensible, logical and rational unfortunately do not apply to all people. And that is where ludicrous theoreticians come from. I predict the UK newspapers will be full of all the old 'it was a conspiracy; Diana was killed' nonsense around the 10th anniversary of her death services, etc. Because, of course, Diana was such a threat to the power of the British monarchy. That power that was taken away...about 450 years ago. Those kinds of people will never be satisfied with any proof as long as they want to believe in the conspiracy. And the level of delusion demonstrated by many I have seen around and about suggests that the wish to believe will never go away.

Rachel
xx

Well put Rachel.  Just take a rational look at Russia today, with Putin consolodating his power, suppressing dissent and opposition, creating and maintaining his oligarchs and attempting to ressurect a Soviet style Nationalism extending to even trying to claim the entire North Pole as Russian territory. (Please take the political discussion of this to another thread, this is here only to set the support evidence for my next sentence).

WHY on EARTH would the Russian government go to the trouble, expense, etc to create some conspiracy to plant evidence about the Imperial Children?  WHAT would the possible gain be? Putin and his regime have much bigger fish to fry and there can be no doubt that some moldy bones in Ekaterinburg as SO FAR under their radar as to be non-existent and trivial.

What is even more disturbing to me, IMO, and I will gladly go on record here, is how INSULTING these allegations are to the genuine work of those dedicated people who have spent decades at work in Ekaterinburg, including Avdonin, Soloviev, Kurlaiev, SEARCH, et al.  Each and every single person who claims this to be some sort of conspiracy or plant should hide their faces in SHAME at the slander and genuine defamation that they throw in their  faces at  the genuine work of all of these people.  Anyone who genuinely IS  a "serious" historian or author would certainly know of their work and dedication,  and would be appalled that anyone would so question their integrity by making such a claim.

Rob
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 09:06:21 AM by Forum Admin »

Offline dmitri

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2007, 10:01:11 AM »
very well put Rob ... thanks very much for your wise words

Offline Annie

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Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2007, 10:09:09 AM »
Yes, it is an insult to those who worked hard on this, it's the same as calling them liars and crooks and frauds. But this is nothing new for claimant supporters/conspiracy theorists who have been doing the same to the DNA scientists for 13 years. All for what, to continue to make excuses for the ones who really were liars and frauds?(claimants)