Author Topic: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors  (Read 63914 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline RichC

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2007, 04:19:21 PM »

Well put Rachel.  Just take a rational look at Russia today, with Putin consolodating his power, suppressing dissent and opposition, creating and maintaining his oligarchs and attempting to ressurect a Soviet style Nationalism extending to even trying to claim the entire North Pole as Russian territory. (Please take the political discussion of this to another thread, this is here only to set the support evidence for my next sentence).

WHY on EARTH would the Russian government go to the trouble, expense, etc to create some conspiracy to plant evidence about the Imperial Children?  WHAT would the possible gain be? Putin and his regime have much bigger fish to fry and there can be no doubt that some moldy bones in Ekaterinburg as SO FAR under their radar as to be non-existent and trivial.


I'm in complete agreement here.  Putin has much bigger fish to fry (and they are being fried). 

Offline Phil_tomaselli

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2007, 11:43:22 PM »
Complete agreement with Forum Admin from me too (despite RichC's misreading of my original statement) BUT Putin's Government's excesses and blatant willingness to twist and corrupt offer the perfect excuse for the "loony brigade" (and trust me, I've known some of them) to claim they've done so here.  And someone will.................

Phil T

Offline PrincessSophie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2007, 12:00:16 AM »

3.  These two bodies were found 70 metres from the mass burial site.
4.  Yurovsky accurately described the exact location where the bodies were found.

My question is (and accepting 1 and 2, based on logic) :  Knowing 4 and 3, why weren't the bodies found earlier?  70 metres isn't far.  Yurovsky made the location clear.  This doesn't make sense!

Sophie

While 70 metres isn't "far" when one is undertaking a proper archaeological excavation it is a huge distance.  One doesn't go "poking around" with shovels or picks.  The soil is carefully removed under controlled circumstances a few centimetres at a time.  In fact, there has been a schedule of the areas of the site to be excavated, and this specific section has been on the 2007 dig calendar for about three years now.  So, it wasn't exactly a random stab in the dark nor overlooked.  The description by Yurovsky isn't "clear as a bell" in its language.  While I have not seen the original Russian text, certain words are left open to interpretation and the discovery site is now "clear" once we know where it was so can finally see what Yurovsky actually meant.

Allow an example.  "We went 100 paces away, by some birch trees and a big rock."   Well, the entire area is nothing but birch trees and big rocks.  Does this make sense?  I'm trying to keep things simple, so please don't everyone attack me about this detail, I made it up and its NOT what the Yurovsky statement said.

Thank you, Forum Administrator.  I appreciate the points you have made above.  I certainly understand that an archeological dig is not as simple as making a cake.  They have to take care not to destroy things along the way etc.  That being said, they have had an awful long time to dig up those bodies - which incidently I believe to be the missing two Romanovs, so please don't attack me on this point.  My question is:  given the general location was known, why now, after all this time?

Thanks
Sophie

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4757
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2007, 05:45:09 AM »
  My question is:  given the general location was known, why now, after all this time?

Thanks
Sophie

Sigh, this needs to be answered once and for all and stickied! Okay one more time- NEW WRITINGS FROM YUROVSKY RECENTLY BECAME AVAILABLE THAT WERE NOT SEEN BEFORE!! They were much more specific as to the exact location. Please go read the "Ekaterinburg Press Release" thread in "Forum announcements", it explains everything. Another big reason nobody found them in all those years is  that there really wasn't much in the grave when you look at the pictures. It wasn't like digging up 9 mostly whole skeletons like the first time. These were only small pieces of bones and other materials. It was like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Offline PrincessSophie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2007, 06:31:29 AM »
Thank you for your guidance, Annie!

Offline PrincessSophie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2007, 06:38:51 AM »
I should add that the absence of two bodies from the mass grave in Ekaterinburg containing Russia's last Imperial Family does not validate a survival hypothesis for either the Grand Duchess Anastasia (alternatively Maria) or Tsarevich Alexis. The solution to the mystery is much simpler. There is little reason to doubt chief executioner Yakov Yurovsky's account of the disposal of the Imperial Family's remains, as his report detailing their disposal led investigators a generation later directly to the site of the mass grave, and he never attempted to hide anything. It's simply logical that when the funeral pyre had been lit using gasoline as an accelerant, Yurovsky would have started with the two smallest bodies to see how long it took to reduce them to ash. However, time being of the essence and damp conditions hindering the process, a communal grave was dug for the other victims, Alexis and Anastasia's smoldering, charred remains consigned to a separate grave by their pyre as detailed by Yurovsky. There were simply too many witnesses to the murder and disposal of the Imperial Family, for a cover-up to have occurred or been sustained 80 odd years. Forensic and historic records continue to uphold the accuracy of Yakov Yurovsky's account of those hideous events in 1918 which still haunt the world.

Sophie

Offline RichC

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2007, 09:13:01 AM »
Complete agreement with Forum Admin from me too (despite RichC's misreading of my original statement) BUT Putin's Government's excesses and blatant willingness to twist and corrupt offer the perfect excuse for the "loony brigade" (and trust me, I've known some of them) to claim they've done so here.  And someone will.................

Phil T

Thanks, Phil.  This is much clearer.  Sometimes a statement can be worded in such a way that it can create misunderstandings.  I thought you were suggesting that a "loony brigade" was accusing the Russian government of complicity in the death of a journalist, and would do the same in the investigation of the discovery of the remains.  In the case of the journalist, I hope everyone understands the idea of government complicity is far from "loony". 

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2007, 09:44:53 AM »
Sophie,

I think you also forget that in Siberia, the time available to conduct a proper excavation when weather permits is something less than four full months of the year, approximately May thru September.  They can excavate perhaps 50 square metres per season.  The entire area, say only 100 metres per side = 10,000 square metres of possible digging space.  At 50 sq. m. per year, thats TWENTY YEARS of work.


Offline PrincessSophie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2007, 02:46:14 AM »
Sophie,

I think you also forget that in Siberia, the time available to conduct a proper excavation when weather permits is something less than four full months of the year, approximately May thru September.  They can excavate perhaps 50 square metres per season.  The entire area, say only 100 metres per side = 10,000 square metres of possible digging space.  At 50 sq. m. per year, thats TWENTY YEARS of work.



Thank you, Forum Administrator.  I really appreciate your efforts to answer my questions!

Sophie

Offline Rachael89

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 317
  • As the world falls down....
    • View Profile
Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2007, 08:48:01 AM »
Rachael89, I absolutely agree with everything you said except for there being cruelty and ridicule on the forums.  I found the members here to be most helpful in debunking possibilities I raised without attacking me personally, which sadly cannot be said of all forums on any subject.  I do feel a little silly now to have believed in survivors--on some level did even at the time--but I wanted to believe in that possibility or at least see it soundly disproven, not just attacked by people who didn't want to believe, and it's obvious many converts have been made here.  On the other hand, certainly it would be cruel for anyone to have survived such treatment and terrible memories, and then have their identity disputed.  May they all rest in peace together.

Rachael I am sorry if I am one you felt that way about. We were just coming from two different places and perhaps misunderstanding how the other felt. You may have come here with some of the very stereotypical AA info you see online, she knew this, this matched that, and so on, and you accepted it outright, then came here to discuss it. Some of us who had been through i tall over and over for many years and through many posters saw it as "oh no here we go again" and had to start the same debunking to the same old lists of "proof" that keeps going around. I know it sounds bad to you, but to some of us it was actually like an old running joke and felt the need to drag out all the anti-AA artillery to shoot holes in all the weak theories the supporters keep perpetuating. IN doing this, nobody intended to hurt the person on the other side of the posts, only to make the last of the AA myth finally go away. Because we knew for a fact AA was a fake, there is no way to be objective about it, if you believe in AA you are on the wrong side. I am glad  you don't feel hurt anymore, because it wasn't anything personal against you and nobody meant to hurt you.

Also, not all of the AA supporters were as innocent or as nice as you. Some of them have been mean and vicious to those who don't believe in AA, in more intentionally hurtful, even personal, ways. You wouldn't believe some of the personal insults and intentionally hurtful remarks I have recieved in PMs from AA supporters, or seen posted on the old "Legends" forum aimed at me.(or someone they think is me when it wasn't, at one time they were so paranoid they blamed me for about 8 people who weren't me) It has been very wild and rough at times.

Thanks Annie, as you say, it was largely a misunderstanding as I misinterpreted what was ridicule of an opinion as ridicule of me as a person, I am quite a sensitive person so reading between the lines I'd interpret people's posts as an attack. I know what you mean about agressive AA supporters, I remember one who kept on reapplying under diffirent names after being banned, and I thought they were very rude in how they often attacked people who criticised their view.

Rachael
It's not fair!

Offline lexi4

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • don't take yourself too seriously
    • View Profile
Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2007, 04:57:40 PM »
  My question is:  given the general location was known, why now, after all this time?

Thanks
Sophie

Sigh, this needs to be answered once and for all and stickied! Okay one more time- NEW WRITINGS FROM YUROVSKY RECENTLY BECAME AVAILABLE THAT WERE NOT SEEN BEFORE!! They were much more specific as to the exact location. Please go read the "Ekaterinburg Press Release" thread in "Forum announcements", it explains everything. Another big reason nobody found them in all those years is  that there really wasn't much in the grave when you look at the pictures. It wasn't like digging up 9 mostly whole skeletons like the first time. These were only small pieces of bones and other materials. It was like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Annie,
I just read the press release and didn't see anything about a new note from Yurovsky. What did I miss?
Lexi
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline CorisCapnSkip

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • I Love YaBB 2!
    • View Profile
Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2007, 07:21:24 PM »
It was my understanding that someone retranslated existing notes.  Please say if this is correct.

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6649
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2007, 07:44:10 PM »
As I understand it, there was a third report by Yurovsky, that was taken by a stenographer and kept in the Kremlin archives until sometime after the fall of the USSR, when it was released. I took time to find it though.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline PrincessSophie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2007, 11:11:59 PM »
  My question is:  given the general location was known, why now, after all this time?

Thanks
Sophie

Sigh, this needs to be answered once and for all and stickied! Okay one more time- NEW WRITINGS FROM YUROVSKY RECENTLY BECAME AVAILABLE THAT WERE NOT SEEN BEFORE!! They were much more specific as to the exact location. Please go read the "Ekaterinburg Press Release" thread in "Forum announcements", it explains everything. Another big reason nobody found them in all those years is  that there really wasn't much in the grave when you look at the pictures. It wasn't like digging up 9 mostly whole skeletons like the first time. These were only small pieces of bones and other materials. It was like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Annie,
I just read the press release and didn't see anything about a new note from Yurovsky. What did I miss?
Lexi

Me neither, Lexi.  But I haven't discounted the possibility entirely!  Nor does it change the bottomline!

Sophie

Offline dmitri

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2018
    • View Profile
Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
« Reply #59 on: September 01, 2007, 11:53:20 PM »
"myth" is an excellent word for the thread