Author Topic: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4  (Read 76180 times)

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Offline Richard_Schweitzer

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #285 on: October 12, 2007, 01:06:22 AM »
I have not scanned the entire thread, and perhaps Penny Wilson may have reported, since I believe she may have viewed some of the same materials I did in Munich, it might be of interest to know that the S family was subjected to extensive investigation in connection with "Eugenics" research into Hereditary Criminality, during the Nazi regime.  Given the propensity of the Nazis to exterminate the "unfit" on Eugenics grounds, the reticence of the family members may seem more comprehensible.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #286 on: October 12, 2007, 03:09:13 PM »
I knew they had investigated FS's  family and often wondered what became of the paper work created in this investigation.    As part of this investigation someone would have collected the records of the asylums and sanitariums  where the Nazi's would have found records of the  so-called "unfit".

These records might be gathering dust somewhere just waiting to be found.

I realize that the two wars caused destruction but knowing the Germans,  I'm sure they had copies somewhere,  too.

AGRBear
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Offline Annie

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #287 on: October 12, 2007, 03:37:28 PM »
I have always thought the possibility of FS, who had been declared legally insane in 1916, being put into a camp by the Nazis was one reason her family continued to deny they knew her.

Bear, even if they did put records somewhere else, that might have been bombed, too. Also things get thrown away. I dont' think it's likely any records that weren't found by either side during the trial would turn up now.

Offline Richard_Schweitzer

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #288 on: October 12, 2007, 04:02:56 PM »
To replies 488 & 489:

The results are part of a published text book by the "eugenicist" who was responsible. It is in German.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #289 on: October 14, 2007, 11:03:22 AM »
To replies 488 & 489:

The results are part of a published text book by the "eugenicist" who was responsible. It is in German.

The results were published,  but  does anyone know what happen to the collection of information gathered for this published work?

AGRBear
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Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #290 on: October 14, 2007, 11:06:37 AM »
...[in part]...

Bear, even if they did put records somewhere else, that might have been bombed, too. Also things get thrown away. I dont' think it's likely any records that weren't found by either side during the trial would turn up now.

Officals in Germany do not through things away and the reason given:  "You never know when you might need them."   

AGRBear

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Richard_Schweitzer

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #291 on: October 14, 2007, 12:55:11 PM »
If anyone knows where the original reports and studies might be found today, or knows how to find them, it would be Herr M. Phillip Remy.

Offline Annie

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #292 on: October 14, 2007, 06:54:58 PM »
...[in part]...

Bear, even if they did put records somewhere else, that might have been bombed, too. Also things get thrown away. I dont' think it's likely any records that weren't found by either side during the trial would turn up now.

Officals in Germany do not through things away and the reason given:  "You never know when you might need them."   

AGRBear



So you know these guys personally? How do you know, just guessing?

Realistically, things do get thrown away after a few years because there is no room! I once asked for records of mine that were 5 years old, and they had moved them to a shed. They said after the shed got full they dumped it and put in newer stuff. You are attempting to say the Germans are efficient by saying they keep everything, but don't forget the famous saying about Germans having neat houses! That's something I always heard growing up that if somebody was German, her house must be immaculate! If they kept everything they'd have junkpiles everywhere. So your stereotype is actually opposite!

 Please give me a break, no one keeps doctor records after nearly 100 years, even IF they survived the bombing, practices go out of business, buildings get torn down, stuff gets dumped.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 06:57:16 PM by Annie »

Offline Richard_Schweitzer

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #293 on: October 14, 2007, 09:05:31 PM »
SO - what's all that stuff in the Russian State Archives? Roach droppings?

Offline Annie

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #294 on: October 14, 2007, 09:15:51 PM »
And the library of congress has a lot too. I'm talking about individual doctors' practices, and old doctor records from 91 years ago. I really do believe what wasn't destroyed in one of the wars would be long tossed out and the practice probably long moved and/or closed, most likely closed when the doctor died or the war blew it up. I really don't believe there are any dr. records on FS to be found today that weren't found by either side during the trial.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #295 on: October 15, 2007, 01:48:39 PM »
SO - what's all that stuff in the Russian State Archives? Roach droppings?

Mr Schweitzer, there is no need to get nasty...

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #296 on: October 15, 2007, 03:47:55 PM »
Hitler had the Sokolov dossier from the Janin vault in Paris in his personal papers.  The Russians recovered it and Stalin took it into his private papers where it remained in the files of the Russian president in the early 90's when I was shown it and went through it.

Hitler knew Anna Anderson was a fraud.  Stalin did too and Soviet agents nurtured the Anastasia myth in order to create dissension in White Russian circles in the West and discredit the Romanov family.  What support they gave and who their agents were I don't know.

Both Stalin and Hitler were after Romanov jewels.  Stalin's agents got their hands on got tens of millions of Romanov gems and there is evidence Hitler may have gotten his share as well.

Bob

Offline Belochka

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #297 on: October 15, 2007, 07:54:36 PM »
Hitler had the Sokolov dossier from the Janin vault in Paris in his personal papers.  The Russians recovered it and Stalin took it into his private papers where it remained in the files of the Russian president in the early 90's when I was shown it and went through it.

Hitler knew Anna Anderson was a fraud.  Stalin did too and Soviet agents nurtured the Anastasia myth in order to create dissension in White Russian circles in the West and discredit the Romanov family.  What support they gave and who their agents were I don't know.

Bob

Bob you are 100% correct.

That Sokolov Dossier has been declassified and parts have just been published in 2007 for the very first time, thanks to the efforts of two military jurists of the Russian Federation. This fascinating publication offers supplementary material not seen previously. The collection has an interesting history by itself. The nazis obtained the material soon after they entered Paris. After the Red Army liberated Berlin, those 4 volumes were secured by the Soviets and transfered to the Special Military Archives (GVP) in Moscow and never saw the light of day until November 1987.

Bob you are indeed fortunate to have been given the opportunity to examine those pages.

Margarita


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Offline Richard_Schweitzer

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #298 on: October 16, 2007, 08:27:53 PM »
Since my time for these postings is becoming limited, and I can only scan the topics from time to time now, What I will do is post responses or such information as I have on the one thread that someone set up with my name. I will put this on all the threads that have put recent statements about my replies or questions to me. Earlier, I had copied out only one set of questions from “Rob,” that I will transfer to the single thread. Anyone else who wants follow-up will have to transfer their post to that thread. No guarantees of satisfaction.

I recognize that there is an effort to assure me that I am not Don Quixote, and that there are no windmills. I do not propose to “convince” anyone of anything. I do not advocate. When asked, I have stated my views. Such facts as I have, I share. I state them, I don’t try to prove them.

My reason for posting again, was being drawn in by the calumnies against those now dead; then drifting into two other threads of related topics. For a broader overview, some might consider going back over my posts to various threads on this site over years past. I think they will find they make up a consistent whole. If not, the fault is mine.

Dick Schweitzer

 

Offline klava1985

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #299 on: October 17, 2007, 05:30:47 PM »
The first part of the above is honest speculation, the final three paragraphs assertions that cannot be supported and that do not necessarily follow.

A note:
A mental illness is a physical illness.


Some questions for you, Annie (and anyone else):

Do you think FS indeed might have run afoul of Grossman at some point? Could this have been her great escape?

What do we know about her dream of being an actress? When I was eight I told my neighbor that I wanted to be a writer, a lawyer, or president of the United States. I have not been suicidal over the failure to realize any of these, though of course I am not FS. My sister believes I have "sold out" a previous dream of being an ambassador; if that was my dream, I was far less attached to it than my sister was... What we have of FS are a few random memories and impressions that do not a biography or even a character sketch make.

Do we know that she refused to give her identity...I mean, are we sure that it was a refusal and not an inability?

If she was *unable* to give her identity, how might that play into what happened later?







« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 05:32:28 PM by klava1985 »