Author Topic: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4  (Read 72427 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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This thread isn't about AA or her claim to be GD Anastasia.

If FS was murdered by Grossmann then  AA couldn't have been  FS.

AGRBear

But don't you see, there is evidence that the police agreed with Ernie's ID of AA as FS, meaning not only was AA FS, but that FS wasn't murdered by Grossman. Case closed.

When did GD Ernst Ludwig of Hesse  ever meet  AA or FS?   Far as I know he never met  AA.

The Berlin Police,  before the Nazi period (1932),   who handled  AA's case  or Grossmann's case  did not  connect AA and FS as being the same person.   Even after  GD Ernst's  detectives claimed  AA was FS and saw whatever it was  found,  the police did not  make a statement that AA and FS were the same person.   

Yes,   around 1940,    Drescher, who was in the Gestopo  [Nazi police],  signed documents  making some kind of  acknowledgement that AA was FS.  I assume these documents  were entered  by   the lawyers who represented  the Romanovs  in AA's trial.  Evidently whatever  the documents were,   they  did not convince the judges  AA was FS. .

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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He was with the Berlin police. And the Grossman case was such a 'big factor' that it wasn't even once mentioned in the triail! Shows how much it meant to them. You never see either side saying 'hey she couldn't be FS she'd dead' quite the opposite. FS was a big part of the trial. If she was so 'dead' she wouldn't have been. This really, really isn't a viable theory.

Offline AGRBear

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CORRECTION:
New Timeline List - 18 Aug 2005   
 
...[in part]...
>>> 1920<<< 
17 Feb. 1920 brother Felix received a birthday card from FS 
 
....


According to Felix,  who's birthday is the 17th of Feb.,  he received a birthday card from his sister late and in the card she tells him that she's sorry that she was late but had been very busy.

From what I've been told,  the German mail was and is dependable.  In Feb. 1920  the mail with FS' card to her brother, if true to form,  would have taken only one day to reach it's distination.  And,  it doesn't matter if Felix was in his family village or in  Ammendorf-bei-Halle  where we know he worked after leaving his home village.

The envelope which would have carried the postmark date can no longer be found,  so,  we only have Felix's memory of it's exsistence and the time frame.

 If the card was recieved one day late, (I don't recall how late Felix said the card was)  this would mean FS   sent her brother a card the same day AA had  jumped into the canal.   


AGRBear

PS  It has been sometime since I've reread this thread.  I'm going to have to take some time this week and go over what I've written and  may make some more corrections and additions.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 11:19:43 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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He was with the Berlin police. And the Grossman case was such a 'big factor' that it wasn't even once mentioned in the triail! Shows how much it meant to them. You never see either side saying 'hey she couldn't be FS she'd dead' quite the opposite. FS was a big part of the trial. If she was so 'dead' she wouldn't have been. This really, really isn't a viable theory.
 

The Romanov lawyers did not  proved AA was FS  in AA's trial.

Why couldn't they?  The Romanov lawyers and the judges  had more the evdience about FS then we, now, have...   

Annie, are you   assuming the Grossmann case wasn't mentioned or is this a fact?    I could understand it if  the Romanov lawyers wouldn't have brought up Grossmann but it seems to me  AA's lawyers would have at least mentioned it or passed this evidence to the judges to review......

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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CORRECTION:
New Timeline List - 18 Aug 2005   
 
...[in part]...
>>> 1920<<< 
17 Feb. 1920 brother Felix received a birthday card from FS 
 
....


According to Felix,  who's birthday is the 17th of Feb.,  he received a birthday card from his sister late and in the card she tells him that she's sorry that she was late but had been very busy.

From what I've been told,  the German mail was and is dependable.  In Feb. 1920  the mail with FS' card to her brother, if true to form,  would have taken only one day to reach it's distination.  And,  it doesn't matter if Felix was in his family village or in  Ammendorf-bei-Halle  where we know he worked after leaving his home village.

The envelope which would have carried the postmark date can no longer be found,  so,  we only have Felix's memory of it's exsistence and the time frame.

 If the card was recieved one day late, (I don't recall how late Felix said the card was)  this would mean FS   sent her brother a card the same day AA had  jumped into the canal.   


Bear, you really do need to consider reality instead of what one person who is obsessed with AA would like to believe. In those days, the mail was a lot slower than it is now, and adding the problems of postwar  Europe, and the political upheaval, it's not realistic that there would be 'one day delivery' like there is now in major metropolitan and surrounding areas. It's unrealistic, and there is no proof. Common sense can tell you otherwise.

Offline Annie

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Annie, are you   assuming the Grossmann case wasn't mentioned or is this a fact?    I could understand it if  the Romanov lawyers wouldn't have brought up Grossmann but it seems to me  AA's lawyers would have at least mentioned it or passed this evidence to the judges to review......

AGRBear


You'd think her side would have tried that, but it seems they didn't since I've never seen anything about it anywhere, even in Kurth's or Lovell's books! So it really looks like it wasn't an issue and nobody believed it.

ferrymansdaughter

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Annie,  first of all the war had been over for 18 months.    You seem to think Europe was in chaos for years afterwards.  People try to return to normal as fast as they can and one way of doing that is get the infrastructure up and running to a pre-war level.  Even during WW1 and 2 in the UK  the postal services were as  normal as possible given the circumstances and by 1920 things would be much better.    I see no reason why Germany would be different and  the Germans have a reputation for efficiency for a reason. 

 Is there any way we can find out -  does anyone out there have good enough German to do a bit of research on this? 

Also one thing that has always struck me  - would FS really try to commit suicide on her brother's birthday and yet still bother to send him a card?  If she was in that bad a state, I doubt very much if she would. 

Offline AGRBear

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A little German postal history:

>>In 1925, and thus even after a sharp reduction in the number of those working in the German public service as a consequence of territorial losses in World War I and severe economic problems, there were still over 2.72 million public employees - more than in any other country in central or western Europe and nearly as many as in the United States, although the U.S. population was almost twice as large as Germany's.(5) The percentage of the German work force employed in the public service was also singularly high (8.50%).(6) Remarkably, the Federal Republic emerged with a public service that was no smaller when viewed in relative terms - despite the turbulence and the upheavals of the Nazi era and the occupation period. Indeed, its dimensions had increased even further.  [...in part.....]

These public employees performed a wide variety of tasks. Many worked in administration at the city, county, state, or federal levels, others worked for the police, for fire departments, hospitals and other health-care institutions, the public schools, or the (exclusively state-run) university system. Still others were employed in a multitude of public utilities and enterprises, such as gasworks and water companies, sewage treatment plants, most electric companies, and virtually all urban transport systems.<<

>>.... a quarter of a million worked for the Federal Postal Service (Bundespost) in 1950, which not only was responsible for delivering letters and packages, but also ran the telephone and telegraph systems.) Furthermore, all local post offices provided banking facilities as well as a savings and loan service, both of which were widely used.<<

We're not talking about our US Postal system which hasn't been the same since the Pony Express ended :)....

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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A source which should make Annie happy since it is not from Peter Kurth or Summers & Mangold:


p. 250 Massie's THE ROMANOVS THE FINAL CHAPTER tells us:

In February 1920 her favorite brother, Felix, received a last message from her.

(...in part...)

AGRBear


« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 09:48:37 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Correction:

*****AA jumped off the Bendler Bridge and into the water of the Landwehr canal and was reported to have been fished out of the water by Police Serg. Hallman   at or about 9:00 PM on the evening of Tuesday, 17 Feb. 1920 and taken to Elizabeth Hospial in Lutzowstrasse.

I have no idea why I wrote the wrong date in my earlier posts.

FS sent a birthday wish to Felix, her brother, who received it on or about 17 Feb 1920

****AA jumped into the canal and was placed in a hospital on 18 Feb. 1920 and then sent to Dalldorf Asylum.

FS was reported to the police as missing in March by the Wingenders.

Burno G. testified in court that he met FS in Danzig where she and some girlfriends were about to go to London and this was July of 1920.

The police told FS's family that they believed FS was killed 13 Aug 1920 by Grossmann.



AGRBear
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 10:06:25 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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"The war had been over for 18 months"

Well, it took a lot longer for things to settle and go on. It does everywhere. Even here in the US after the Civil War, things were hard in the south for years. It always is on the losing side, and Germany, despite the claims of how efficient they were, was no exception. You have to consider, people were dead, buildings destroyed, the entire government fallen and gone and the new one in turmoil. Nobody just went home and started living like normal again just because the war ended. There was lasting damage and much change. I have posted links proving there were severe problems between 1919 and 1923, especially in March 1920!!

After 1923, things got better for the next several years, 1924-29. Those were the infamous cabaret times you hear about. This is why the comment posted by bear about 1925 was not as desperate as the ones I showed you of the earlier 20s. Of course, things were still not great, and this is why Hitler eventually came to power but this is another story. What I am trying to say is things were not running smoothly in the days when FS first went missing. The police did not have the time and resources to devote to the case at the time, but when Ernie did, he found AA = FS very easily, though AA supporters like to think if this as some kind of payoff or conspiracy  ::)

I do not believe the mail ran on a one day service back then even IF things were not so bad WHICH THEY WERE! Realistically, they did not have the machinery, vehicles and other methods we have for delivering mail today. No way. And would she send a birthday card and then commit suicide? I who knows, I am not FS. You would had to have asked AA because she was the one who was FS.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 10:05:28 AM by Annie »

Offline Annie

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Now I have a completely out-of-the-box HYPOTHETICAL idea of why she sent the card then attempted suicide. Maybe she thought if she made contact with him he would come looking for her, a "cry for help" type of thing for a hurting young woman. So maybe she decided to "jump" when he did not show, or perhaps she never intended to kill herself but be pulled out(ever wonder why she chose a canal instead of a high bridge over a real river if she really wanted to die?) as she was and have him come "save" her? Obviously, the family did not come. You can imagine anything you want here, AA supporters will say it was because she was not FS, I could say it is because they were estranged, not close, or because of financial reasons did not stay in close contact or were unable to travel. We also do not know the actual date the card was mailed or recieved. We do not have a copy of it, only word of mouth which could be incorrect. But it does not matter anyway we now know AA was FS, we can only speculate on her reasons for doing what she did, not her identity.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 10:12:26 AM by Annie »

Offline AGRBear

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The birthday card was mailed in Feb. and received  (according to Massie) in Feb.,  so,  I'm not sure what Kapps putsch in March [which lasted just four days]  has to do with this particular piece of mail.

I'll keep looking for information about mail service in Feb. of 1920 in the Weimer Republic.  Looks like I might have to go into some German web sites.

Meanwhile,  Annie,  maybe,  you could find a source telling us that the mail wasn't being delievered in Feb. 1920 in one or two or three or four or five days, instead of making assumptions.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Now I have a completely out-of-the-box HYPOTHETICAL idea of why she sent the card then attempted suicide. Maybe she thought if she made contact with him he would come looking for her, a "cry for help" type of thing for a hurting young woman. So maybe she decided to "jump" when he did not show, or perhaps she never intended to kill herself but be pulled out(ever wonder why she chose a canal instead of a high bridge over a real river if she really wanted to die?) as she was and have him come "save" her? Obviously, the family did not come. You can imagine anything you want here, AA supporters will say it was because she was not FS, I could say it is because they were estranged, not close, or because of financial reasons did not stay in close contact or were unable to travel. We also do not know the actual date the card was mailed or recieved. We do not have a copy of it, only word of mouth which could be incorrect. But it does not matter anyway we now know AA was FS, we can only speculate on her reasons for doing what she did, not her identity.

The information was from FS' brother Felix,  and,  it is her brother who has voiced that he received his birthday card late and that had said she was sorry because she had been so busy....

This memory of Felix became so important to both sides,  pro and anti  AA=GD Anastasia,  that several things occured. 

(1) The envelope and then the card has been misplaced /  destroyed.
(2) According to Peter Kurth's book  ANASTASIA  p. 323-4:  >>  "We were right back at the beginning," said Donminique Aucleres,  "Ground zero."  Her point was proved when the lawyers began the tedious process of reviewing the facts--the simple dates, places, and times of the "Anaastasia" affiar, which each of the had to accept as accurate before the trial could proceed.  Already Klaus Wagner, the new corespondent for the Frankfurter Allegmeine, had been "irriated by the profusion of details and the endless possibilites" for arguemnt.  Could it be that the judges and lawyers were only now, after fourty-four years, finally determining the exact date of Anastasia's suicide atempt?  But so they were.  Efforts had been made after destruction of the Berlin dossiers to move the date ahrad from February 17 to February 27, 1920, a datate that better coincided with the alleged disappearance of Franziska Schanzkowksa.<<

The date 17 Feb. 1920  AA jumped into the canal was not changed.

Massie tells us in his book:  Felix, [who's birthday was 17 Feb.,]  recieved his [late] birthday card in Feb. of 1920

The date the Wingenders recorded with the police that FS was missing was and still thought to be  9 March 1920.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 10:42:46 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

ferrymansdaughter

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"The war had been over for 18 months"

Well, it took a lot longer for things to settle and go on. It does everywhere. Even here in the US after the Civil War, things were hard in the south for years.

I don't think you can compare the Civil War with WWI -  there had been massive progress in lots of ways between 1865 and 1918.  We are talking 50 years during which there had been the fastest leaps in industrialisation, motorisation, etc.

I do not believe the mail ran on a one day service back then even IF things were not so bad WHICH THEY WERE! .

If it was like the UK they would have had twice daily deliveries and collections from post boxes  at least twice a day.