Author Topic: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4  (Read 76179 times)

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Offline Kransnoeselo

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #300 on: October 17, 2007, 09:32:08 PM »
Given that AA's response to the Doctor's inquries could at times be rather teasing. When they suggested she was a certain someone she retorted that they were not well informed.  It appears from the early reports that it was not an inability but an unwillingness.  She also plucked out hairs to alter the look of her hairline and had several teeth removed- some which were pointed out were not needed to be removed. 

Though certainly it could be argued that she suffered from a head injury (which may very well be the origins of some of her mental illness symptomatology) from the grenade explosion she incurred while working at a German arms plant.

Offline klava1985

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #301 on: October 17, 2007, 10:51:11 PM »
yeah, a head injury is yet another possibility.

my guess is that the AN story resonated for FS as she became aware of it. on some symbolic level, it was *as if* her family had been murdered and her world obliterated. it was *as if* she'd had to flee across the russian plains. it was *as if* she had once been a princess. the AN narrative made sense to her on some kind of cellular level, regardless of her actual memories, if she had any.

Offline Lucien

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #302 on: October 18, 2007, 02:29:54 AM »
A suicidal type,asylums are full of 'm,then and now.Don't look for more then there actually is.
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Offline loulia

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #303 on: October 18, 2007, 02:40:27 PM »
When working at hospital in intensive care, I met many patients who tried to commit suicide, for a lot of reasons, and most of them seemed to me insignificant, I mean completly disproportional: soft arguments with their relatives, little problem at work... and some of them did it because of loneliness, but it's especially old people. Of course we can't know what's happen in her head, but I don't think something terrible happen inevitably.
May be the thoughts of her dead fiancÚ, and her brother's birthday which remind her she was far from her familly... I think it's enough.
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #304 on: October 18, 2007, 03:22:25 PM »
Did FS's family ever mention that FS was suicidal prior to 1920?

Does anyone remember reading anywhere if FS ever attempted suicide after she became an Anastasia claimant, or was she ever considered suicidal any time after that?

Most suicidal people don't just attempt suicide once, they try at least a few times through their lives, some do it until they succeed.

Offline Annie

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #305 on: October 18, 2007, 04:52:15 PM »
Did FS's family ever mention that FS was suicidal prior to 1920?

Does anyone remember reading anywhere if FS ever attempted suicide after she became an Anastasia claimant, or was she ever considered suicidal any time after that?

Most suicidal people don't just attempt suicide once, they try at least a few times through their lives, some do it until they succeed.

Ah, but that was FS who wanted to die, as "Anastasia" she had something to live for ;) Most suicidal people don't get such a lucky chance to completely change their lives and indentities. It's my theory that she DID kill herself, as FS, in a metaphorical suicide. FS was 'dead', her life ended that night in the cnanal. Her body lived on, but not as FS.  Since as AA/"Anastasia" she no longer wanted to die, so she didn't try to kill herself again.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 04:55:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Annie

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #306 on: October 18, 2007, 04:59:54 PM »


Some questions for you, Annie (and anyone else):

Do you think FS indeed might have run afoul of Grossman at some point? Could this have been her great escape?

Well, I have thought in a wild, unverified way, that maybe it was possible she did encounter him and some of the scars AA/FS had on her body were from a fight with him. I really do think most or all came from the grenade factory, but Grossmann is just another idea of how she may have come to be so cut up. We know it wasn't in Ekaterinburg!

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What do we know about her dream of being an actress? When I was eight I told my neighbor that I wanted to be a writer, a lawyer, or president of the United States. I have not been suicidal over the failure to realize any of these, though of course I am not FS. My sister believes I have "sold out" a previous dream of being an ambassador; if that was my dream, I was far less attached to it than my sister was... What we have of FS are a few random memories and impressions that do not a biography or even a character sketch make.

I think her life itself makes a character sketch. She did become a famous actress, in her own way. She pretended to be a dead princess. She didn't sell it out. Maybe one reason she was so depressed in Berlin is because she could see her whole life as working in miserable factories and breweries and her dreams of acting never coming true?

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Do we know that she refused to give her identity...I mean, are we sure that it was a refusal and not an inability?

If she was *unable* to give her identity, how might that play into what happened later?

When I first heard of the AA story years ago, I had always assumed she'd had amnesia. But the more I read about it, the more it seemed like she didn't. It is my personal opinion that she refused to give her identity because she wanted to abandon it. She never gave one until someone gave her the idea to be a Grand Duchess. I really believe, as I said in my previous post, she 'killed herself' as FS and only lived on as someone else.

Offline loulia

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #307 on: October 19, 2007, 02:11:17 AM »


When I first heard of the AA story years ago, I had always assumed she'd had amnesia. But the more I read about it, the more it seemed like she didn't. It is my personal opinion that she refused to give her identity because she wanted to abandon it. She never gave one until someone gave her the idea to be a Grand Duchess. I really believe, as I said in my previous post, she 'killed herself' as FS and only lived on as someone else.

I completly agree with you Annie
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Offline Annie

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #308 on: October 19, 2007, 05:19:30 PM »


When I first heard of the AA story years ago, I had always assumed she'd had amnesia. But the more I read about it, the more it seemed like she didn't. It is my personal opinion that she refused to give her identity because she wanted to abandon it. She never gave one until someone gave her the idea to be a Grand Duchess. I really believe, as I said in my previous post, she 'killed herself' as FS and only lived on as someone else.

I completly agree with you Annie

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #309 on: October 19, 2007, 09:09:57 PM »
Yes Annie, I also agree with you there. FS wanted to dies becuase she thought she herself was unimportant. Then when she pretended to be 'Anastasia' and claimed to be her that was worth living for her. I honestly think that was the reason why she actually killed herself.

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #310 on: October 21, 2007, 05:29:41 AM »
I think she was like anyone in that sitiuation, of feeling like that and wanting to die, but for her it ended differently than it would have for most people in the same circumstances. But, my guess is, regardless of what happened after she wanted to end her life ( and we know what did!!), is that her emotions were what anyone in that sitiuation of feeling that down would feel. It doesn't matter what drove her to feel that way, it only matters that she did feel that way. Sometimes having unfulfilled dreams as mentioned, might drive someone to that point, and sometimes it might not, it would depend on the circumstances and how much importance someone attached to achieving that dream.

Some people wouldn't be bothered by whether they were an actress, and had fulfilled that dream, or if they were just an ordinary, unknown person, and hadn't fulfilled that dream. Knowing FS, she might welll have been the type to have been that distraught over something like an unfulfilled dream, as regards being a famous actress. She seems to have had, correctly, a sense of destiny( I get that from Massie's the Final Chapter).Also, I agree with Loulia that it might not be major things/something terrible that would have made FS or anyone contemplate suicide. Sometimes it seems to be the little things that blow over later that might drive someone to that point, not the major ones. In my opinion, FS had many reasons in 1920 to contemplate suicide, from the little to the big as mentioned on this thread. It might have been all of them, or just one. What matters is only the effect these things/thing had on her state of mind.

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #311 on: October 27, 2007, 11:30:25 PM »
It has been said the suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

That is because as Loulia said, many times the reasons are not huge, but small to everyone but the suicidal.

Franzeska had every reason to be sad.  The death of her fiance and the grenade explosion which disfigured her.  The loss of her job and income.  The way her family seemed to have rejected her even before she became AA.  Perhaps she had even been raped and that is where the supposed child came from. Perhaps she had only one other option for income and that was prostitution.  Maybe she was too ashamed to go home. Who knows? 

I wish there were more sources to look into for information about her.  I can't afford to travel to Germany just to do research.  And, if I did have the money, I would go to St. Petersburg first.  Then I would go to Germany to find my own relatives, not Franzeska's.

Franzeska was a very lucky woman at having been pulled out of that canal.  She was sent to an asylum, but in the 1920s, unlike now, asylums were places for people to get well and get help.  Not like the "locked down" hospitals that we have today where insurance companies determine how long a patient can stay and what treatment they need instead of the dedicated doctors.

In my humble opinion, Franziska did not jump into the canal with the idea of being rescued and becoming Anastasia.  I think that that scenario just began to run with Clara Peuthert and then as it gained momentum, Franzeska began to run with it.

Why she treated so many of her supporters with disdain and contempt and rudeness is a bigger mystery than why she took on someone else's identity.

With a salute to Mr. Schweitzer, I know that if I were trying to infiltrate a royal family and build a support base for taking on the identity of a lost daughter, I would have been more circumspect and less of an outrageous and obnoxious problem to those who wanted to help me.

And by the time that Mr. Schweitzer met Franziska, she was so entrenched in her role either because she had accepted it in her own mind or because she had just gotten very good at it, it is quite easy to see why he would have believed in her story. And it must have been hard for him to disagree with his father-in-law let alone his own wife.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2007, 11:34:23 PM by Alixz »

Offline Annie

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #312 on: October 30, 2007, 12:52:29 PM »
Bear mentioned in another thread that 60 years was a long time to keep up the act. I assume by this bear means she doesn't believe AA was acting.

But looking at it from Franziska's point of view, what would you do? She had already made the claim and it went on for years and caused a lot of trouble and cost a lot of money. Too many people had invested in her case to abandon it. I still don't know if she ever believed she was AN, if she did I don't think it happened until she was old. But even then, once she had married John Manahan, there was no way she could admit she was lying, or he'd leave her and she'd have no place to go. What were her options? She couldn't just say 'okay I'm not AN', she would have been completely humiliated, and she probably would have faced fraud and false claim charges and asked to pay back what she cost everyone. She may have ended up in an insane asylum. She couldn't go crawling back to her family once they had gone to so much trouble to deny her. So you see she was stuck and really couldn't afford to ever give it up. Maybe it was when she realized this that she finally went off the deep end for the last time and became AN in her mind? I also wonder if she ever worried about being exposed, and lost any sleep over it.

Offline loulia

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #313 on: October 30, 2007, 03:32:14 PM »
I think she knew get any advantage by telling the truth (if she knew she was not AN and I have a doubt about it), while she needs the advantages she procures because of her lie, only to survive, financially and psychologically. How could she claims she was FS when FS didn't live on earth for years: she had no more job, friends, goal and even familly... If she said so, she had to start a new life under the name of someone she tried to forget and bear an international shame, and I'm not even speaking about financier consequences!
I guess at one point she probably felt lock in a trap she built herself. May be it could explain the way she was with her supporters, she felt she was their prisonner in a way...
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Offline dmitri

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Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
« Reply #314 on: October 30, 2007, 03:47:13 PM »
Once a con artist, fraud and pathological liar always one.