Author Topic: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!  (Read 93854 times)

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The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
« on: September 02, 2007, 03:47:50 PM »
People keep asking the same questions over and over again, so I have decided to put all the basic information in one place to keep these repetiious posts to a minimum.


On July 29, 2007, certain items were discovered by S.O. Plotnikov and L.G. Vakhmyakov.  In the bore pit that had been located and explored, coals, bone remains, nails and fragments from a ceramic vessel were unearthed.  The spot where the remains were found this summer appears to correspond to a site described by Yakov Yurovsky, the leader of the family's killers, said Sergei Pogorelov, deputy head of the archaeological research department at a regional center for the preservation of historical and cultural monuments in Yekaterinburg.

The deputy director of the Center of protection and use of the cultural heritage of Sverdlovsk, Andreï Grigoriev, told  journalists that the researches had begun after the discovery of archival documents.

" I learnt that the former regional archives of the Communist Party received documents speaking about the murder of the imperial family and about a fruitless attempt to hide corpses ", clarified Mr Grigoriev.

These documents had allowed the specialists to establish the place where the tsarevich Alexis and the grand duchess Marie would have been buried. Following the search organized on a site of 100 square meters, the researchers had discovered the remains of human bodies, bullets, fragments of wooden boxes and fragments of ceramic which, according to preliminary estimations, represented fragments of amphoras used to hold some acid.

an area of 100 square meters was laid out for further investigation.  The work was carried out according to archeological methods, with the use of drainage trenches.  As a result of this exploration, a large spot of coal was exposed.  Upon further examination, this spot was determined to be T-shaped.  After removing the layer of coal, the shapes and sizes of two overlying pits became evident in the subsoil.

    An area discovered along the Old Koptyaki Road presented double bonfire sites, spread between pits, which contained bone remains in various degrees of preservation and condition; bullets; iron nails and angles, fragments of a ceramic vessel and other objects.

•    Initial anthropological analysis determined that the bone remains were human, subjected to varying forms of destruction – including burning.  The bones belong to two young individuals – a young man between the ages of 10-13 years, and a young woman about 18-23.

•    Ceramic vessel fragments are identical to those found in the original burial site found in 1991, and appear to be fragments from ceramic amphorae containing Japanese sulfuric acid. Analysis matches these to be identical to the ones found in the burial site of the other bodies.  Yurovsky et al all describe the procuring and use of this acid during the attempted burning and burial process.

•    Iron angles and nails, apparently, appear to have held together the wooden crates containing the vessels with the sulfuric acid.

•    The metal jacket bullets are of different calibers, from cartridges for short-barreled firearms.  Analysis matches these to be identical to the ones found in the burial site of the other bodies discovered in  1991.

The Forensic Director of Medicine of Sverdlovsk Mr Nevoline clarified that the forensic scientists had also received seven fragments of teeth, three bullets of a weapon with short standard cannon and a fragment of fabric of garment.
 G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning in 1918. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers."

The three bullets also match exactly those found in the "mass grave" previously found in1991.
“The remains have been exposed to extreme heat, and the bullets were found close to the bones and must have hit the victims’ bodies,” Mr. Nevolin said
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 05:22:17 PM by Forum Admin »

Offline Belochka

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Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2007, 10:33:11 PM »
This is part of the formal  statement that was released by the General Procurator of the Russian Federation, August 24, 2007.
(I have separated the sentences for easy reading. Translation by Margarita Nelipa)


... 29 июля 2007 г. в яме глубиной до 60 см были обнаружены зубы, фрагменты черепных крышек, костей таза, ребер и трубчатых костей двух человек.

Там же находились 3 пули, часть разбитого керамического сосуда с глазурью, большое количество древесного угля и мелких сгоревших частиц костной ткани. На фрагментах черепных крышек имеются повреждения, внешне похожие на огнестрельные.

Все кости имеют признаки обгорания и воздействия на них агрессивных веществ.


... On 29 July in a pit at a depth of up to 60 cm. were discovered teeth, skull cap fragments, pelvic bones, ribs and the tubular bones of two persons.

In the same place were found 3 bullets, a segment from a broken ceramic vessel with glaze, a large quantity of charcoal and small charred bone tissue fragments. On the skull cap fragments there are injuries, externally resembling firearms.

All the bones have signs of burning and influences on them from aggressive forces.




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Offline Belochka

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Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2007, 11:06:02 PM »
Adding to the list of items found at the excavation site in July, 2007, I am able to confirm the following:

There were 7 human teeth,

один фрагмент ткани одежды (one fragment of fabric from clothing).

Using a metal detector the very first object that was found was a bullet.

Margarita Nelipa


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Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2007, 01:01:14 AM »
Thank you Ms Nelipa,

The word "coal" puzzled me. Now I see that that it was "charcoal". This makes much more sense.

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Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2007, 02:22:52 AM »
It should be generously acknowledged that a local resident from Ekaterinburg, Леонид Вохмяков (Leonid Vokhmyakov) was the first person to discover the skeletal remains.

The first skeletal bone he found was a juvenile pelvic bone.


Leonid Vokhmyakov (on the right) and Sergei Plotnikov



Another view of the location:



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Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2007, 02:38:16 AM »
Presenting some of the images into one collection for the interest of Alexander Palace Forum members:

Three spent bullets


A few of the charred bone fragments + one nail


Two of the three skull fragments



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Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2007, 02:29:52 PM »
Moscow, August 31, Interfax - Ivan Plotnikov, a scholar from the Urals who wrote a monograph entitled Historical Truth. The Death of the Royal Family, is convinced that the remains discovered recently in Porosyonkov Log are those of Nicholas II’s children, Crown Prince Alexey and Princess Maria.

In his interview with the Rossijskaya Gazeta daily published on Friday, Plotnikov related that examining many years ago the cell of the regional museum located across the street from the Ipatyev’s house, he found photographs made in the Porosyonkov Log. One of them shows Pyotr Yermakov, one of the executers, standing on the footbridge where the supposed remains of the nine members of the royal family were to be found later.

“There is a white shred on the photograph marking some place and it is written ungrammatically in his (Yermakov’s) handwriting on its reversed side: ‘This is the place wherein the romanovs are plant’. At that very moment I figured out that the search should start from that place”, the historian said.

He also said there are ‘at least three reliable sources’ which prove that ‘all the bodies were buried in the same Porosyonkov Log’.

‘These are the so-called Yurovsky’s Note written in 1920, his memoirs of 1922 and the shorthand record of his address to a Bolshevik meeting in 1934. All the three evidences essentially suggest the same’, Plotnikov believes.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=3566

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Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2007, 06:28:35 PM »
I hope we're not going back to the foolish and evil name Sverdlovsk for Ekaterinburg...

J. Kirchanski

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Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2007, 06:33:30 PM »
I suggest we not have that discussion here. This is for the specific information about the discovery so that all the information is in one place that everyone can find easily.

These place names are taken directly from the Russian Press releases, take the discussion up with them. It is not our place to change a word of what the Russians release.

FA

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Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2007, 12:59:19 AM »
Monday, August 3, 2007 [Ekaterinburg local time]

The Senior Moscow Procurator, Vladimir Soloviev, who is directing the course of this second investigation was met at the Ekaterinburg airport last night (Monday, Ekaterinburg local time) by the Head of the Ekaterinburg Forensic Bureau, Nikolai Nevolin who accepted custody of the 1991 excavation tissue samples. All these samples are now safely secured.

Samples were received in one single, labelled, plastic package that remained sealed. The tissue samples belonged to Nikolai II, Alexandra Fedorovna and three of their daughters + those of the staff who died with them. The handover and storage has been filmed.

Margarita Nelipa
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 01:03:31 AM by Belochka »


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Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2007, 12:23:23 AM »
A few images from Russian TV news service Vesti, Ekaterinburg, August 3, 2007:

Procurator Vladimir Soloviev (right) and Head of the Ekaterinburg Forensic Bureau Nikolai Nevolin


Nevolin placing the hermetically sealed package containing the 1991 Ekaterinburg samples into cold storage


The first investigations will be conducted at the Sverdlovsk regional Forensic Bureau where specialists will first determine the condition of all the 2007 bone fragments. They will also then assess whether the DNA has been preserved adequately, in order to conduct their genetic assays.

Forensic investigations will commence after the appointed Russian anthroplogical experts will meet in Ekaterinburg next week.

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2007, 10:16:48 PM »
I hope we're not going back to the foolish and evil name Sverdlovsk for Ekaterinburg...

J. Kirchanski

Sverdlovsk, in addition to being the name of a Bolshevik leader and the former name of the city of Ekaterinburg, is still the name of the oblast (state, or province) of the Russian Federation which encompasses the City of Ekaterinburg. It is the proper name for the Oblast.

There are many place names which are named for people who did evil things.

This thread is intended to be a FAQ, not a discussion of the discovery.

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Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2007, 06:14:42 PM »
CORRECTION:

In my two postings above the dates should read September 3, 2007.

My sincere apologies for this error.

Margarita


Monday, August 3, 2007 [Ekaterinburg local time]

A few images from Russian TV news service Vesti, Ekaterinburg, August 3, 2007:



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Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2007, 07:06:13 PM »
On September 18, 2007 the Senior Moscow Procurator (Criminalistics) Vladimir Soloviev announced the list of 12 specialists who have formed the Team of Experts who will examine the 2007 Eketerinburg excavation remains.

They are:


1. Nikolai Nevolin * [Николай НЕВОЛИН] - Director of the Sverdlovsk Forensic Medicine Bureau. 

2. Vladimir Gromov * [Владимир ГРОМОВ] - Assistant Director of the Sverdlovsk Forensic Medicine Bureau.

3. Sergei Vasiliev * [Сергей ВАСИЛЬЕВ] - Head of the Anthropological Institute. Member of the Russian Academy of Science.

4. Victor Zvyagin * [Виктор ЗВЯГИН] - Director of "Roszdrava" Russian Center of Forensic Medicine. Consultant to the Forensic Medical Laboratory of the Russian Federation in Rostov-on-Don for the identificaton of military corpses who had served in the Chechen Republic.

5. Alexander Zubov * [Александр ЗУБОВ] - senior scientist of the Ethnology and Anthropology Institute. Member of the Russian Academy of Science.

6. Sergei Nikitin * [Сергей НИКИТИН] - Chief forensic specialist of the Moscow Bureau of Forensic Medicine.

7. Gurgen Pashinyan * [Гурген ПАШИНЯН] - Forensic stomatological expert.

8. Tatyana Popova [Татьяна ПОПОВА] - Doctorate in Forensic Medicine and Medical Law of the Moscow State Medico-stomatological University.

9. Dmitrii Razhaev [Дмитрий РАЖАЕВ] - Senior scientist of the Archaelogy and History Institute.

10. Evgenii Tuchuk * [Евгений ТУЧИК] - Professor of Forensic Medicine and Medical Law of the Moscow State Medico-stomatological University.

11. Rudolph Chemekov [Рудольф ЧЕМЕКОВ] - Assistant Professor of anesthesiology and stomatology.

12. Anthony Falsetti * [Антонии ФАЛСЕТТИ] - Adjunct Professor of Anthropology, University of Florida. Member of the American Board of Forensic and American Academy of Forensic Sciences of Anthropology.

Peter Sarandinaki the Director of the SEARCH Foundation liased and organized for Anthony Falsetti to be the international member of the Team of 12 Experts.

N. B. Star (*) denotes that the investigator was involved with the 1991 Ekaterinburg remains.


Margarita Nelipa


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Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2007, 08:16:07 PM »
The Senior Procurator, Vladimir Soloviev has announced that the following scientific examinations will take place on the 2007 Ekaterinburg excavation remains by the Team of 12 Experts:

Firstly, the anthropological and stomatological expertizing will take place.

Followed up by the Criminalistic evaluation of:

1. the bullets,
2. the cloth fragments.

3. Compare these objects with those found in 1991.

4. Examine the charred fragments of wood from the fire.

Initial questions which the experts will evaluate will be:

1. How many individuals?
2. The sex?
3. The age?
4. Are there any traces of injury to the bones? -> If there are, what is the source of the injury(ies)? type of injury(ies)?
                                                                  -> Was(were) the injury(ies) sustained during life or postmortem?

The next phase of the Soloviev Inquiry will be genetic profiling.

A direct comparison will be made using the 2007 bone samples with the DNA profiles from the 1991 bone samples.

Margarita Nelipa



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