Author Topic: Time and myths  (Read 12137 times)

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Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Time and myths
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2007, 04:09:15 PM »
Well, people are still discussing that Alexander I didn't really die, but became the Staryets Feodor Kuzmich...people still discuss the Dauphin of France surviving the Tower.  Will Anna Manahan be discussed 100 years from now? Maybe. Will people discuss the fact that claimants to be survivors popped up constantly for 90 years after the murders of the Imperial Family 100 years from now, absolutely. IMO.


Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Time and myths
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2007, 04:13:44 PM »
I think 100 years from now people will still be discussing that Elvis and Marylin Monroe and Jim Morrison didn't die but changed identities and escaped to some island. I think Janice Joplin and Jimmy Hendrix and Pss Diana too... This stuff is not just limited to missing royalty!
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 08:41:48 PM by Alixz »

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Time and myths
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2007, 04:15:35 PM »
Well, people are still discussing that Alexander I didn't really die, but became the Staryets Feodor Kuzmich...people still discuss the Dauphin of France surviving the Tower. 

And don't forget the two little princes in the Tower... That's 500 years ago.

Offline dmitri

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Re: Time and myths
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2007, 08:03:27 PM »
although the Princes in the Tower and Alexander I were indeed once royal whereas Anderson never was. She was just an imposter. At least Monroe and the rest had some claim to real fame.

Offline lexi4

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Re: Time and myths
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2007, 08:16:03 PM »
Well, people are still discussing that Alexander I didn't really die, but became the Staryets Feodor Kuzmich...people still discuss the Dauphin of France surviving the Tower.  Will Anna Manahan be discussed 100 years from now? Maybe. Will people discuss the fact that claimants to be survivors popped up constantly for 90 years after the murders of the Imperial Family 100 years from now, absolutely. IMO.



That is all correcct FA, but imho does not take into account how Campbell defines myth. (Or at least one major aspect of the definition.)
"Myth is the secret opening through which the inexhaustible energies of the cosmos pour into human manifestation..." (Joseph Campbell).
The Anna Mannahan story does not involve creation in anyway. During an interview, Campbell defines the purpose of myth, which I do not think fits Anna Manahan or her story.
The purpose of myth in Campbell's words: "There are four of them. One's mystical. One's cosmological: the whole universe as we now understand it becomes, as it were, a revelation of the mystery dimension. The third is sociological, taking care of the society that exists. But we don't know what this society is, it's changed so fast. Good God! In the past 40 years there have been such transformations in mores that it's impossible to talk about them. Finally, there's the pedagogical one of guiding an individual through the inevitables of a lifetime. But even that's become impossible because we don't know what the inevitables of a lifetime are any more. They change from moment to moment."
There is nothing cosmic about Anna Mannahan. Yes, it may well be discussed for a thousand years, but that does not make it myth, imho.
Respectfully,
Lexi
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

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Re: Time and myths
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2007, 08:44:43 PM »
"There are four of them. One's mystical."
A young Grand Duchess mysteriously survives the murder of her entire family and enoutrage, in a small room, by men determined to see them all killed. Only after the fact does this soldier find the poor girl MIRACULOUSLY alive, piled up with the corpses of her family, in a truck,  and secretly spirits her away off into the Siberian Forest, to salvation whilst risking his own life to do so...THAT is not mystical??

 One's cosmological: the whole universe as we now understand it becomes, as it were, a revelation of the mystery dimension.

The hand of G-d or Fate, or whatever, somehow reaches out to this poor innocent young girl, who against ALL ODDS miraculously survives the brutal slaughter of her entire family, only to be discovered barely alive out in the forest by the one person who can possibly save her from certain death at the hands of  Yurovsky et al...nurtured back to health and somehow smuggled out of Bolshevik Russia all by the means of some well meaning people who ALL risk their own lives to save her? I'd say this is a slam dunk.

The third is sociological, taking care of the society that exists. But we don't know what this society is, it's changed so fast. Good God! In the past 40 years there have been such transformations in mores that it's impossible to talk about them.

Even in the midst of the madness and brutality of the Bolshevik regime, some semblance of humanity and civilisation survives, personified by the soldier(s) who risk their lives to save the Grand Duchess...even in the midst of societal upheaval in Russia, some semblance of humanity and the values of the fallen Russian Imperial civilisation yet remains, to miraculously save the innocent girl.

Finally, there's the pedagogical one of guiding an individual through the inevitables of a lifetime. But even that's become impossible because we don't know what the inevitables of a lifetime are any more. They change from moment to moment."
A girl innocent of any political ties or involvement is thrust into the most horrible and inevitable circumstances of anyone's life. YET she "endures" and "Survives" those inevitabilities....

I'd say the story hits four out of four points, IMO. Now AGAIN I am not saying that Anna Manahan HERSELF is worthy of "mythological" status, but I definately believe the STORY is indeed 20th century mythology...no doubt.

FA
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 08:58:10 PM by Forum Admin »

Offline lexi4

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Re: Time and myths
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2007, 09:02:04 PM »
FA,
I am just want to make sure you know that this is just discussion and I mean no disrespect to you or your opinion on this topic. If that is clear, I will post a response to your argument.
Respectfully,
Lexi
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

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Re: Time and myths
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2007, 11:04:48 PM »
Lexi,

I never for an instant thought there was anything personal. I have been enjoying the discussion of why I think the survivor MYTH is legitimate, even thought Anna Manahan herself is in no way "mythological".

FA

Offline dmitri

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Re: Time and myths
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2007, 07:07:25 AM »
I guess Anna Anderson/Franziska Schankowska will remain a myth as an imposter as she was never connected in any way with the reality of the Grand Duchess Anastasia who was brutally murdered on the night of 17th July 1918. Anderson was something quite separate and unrelated to the Romanovs or Russian history. Her myth or legend started after being fished out from the Landwehr Canal after her suicide attempt in Berlin.

Offline lexi4

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Re: Time and myths
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2007, 07:56:16 AM »
Lexi,

I never for an instant thought there was anything personal. I have been enjoying the discussion of why I think the survivor MYTH is legitimate, even thought Anna Manahan herself is in no way "mythological".

FA

Great. Then I will prepare and post my rebuttal later.  :)

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

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Re: Time and myths
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2007, 09:04:45 AM »
Having never read Joseph Campbell, I guess I am not qualified to respond to most of what has been posted here.

However,(and this is about myths not AA/FS) how many of us remember from school all of the countries who believed that there would be a"Northwest Passage" from Europe going westward to Asia?  This was considered a myth that these sailors believed and they believed they would someday prove its existence.

Just yesterday, scientists who are concerned about global warming and the melting of the Polar Icecap, stated that now that the ice cap has become so much smaller, that the "Northwest Passage" can indeed exist and they provided maps to show just where it is!  There is already worry that too many countries will be competing with each other to begin using this much shorter route to go from Europe to Asia and that they will upset the ecology of the Polar region.  Even though the new route will save time and energy, it will also begin the pollution of the area and even the loss of the home of the Polar bears and then of course the loss of the bears themselves.

Now, this "myth" about a Northwest Passage.  Where did it come from?  Was is a generational or cultural memory? It could have been mere speculation, but it persisted in human consciousness for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Some myths do have a scientific basis.  Some myths can be proven even if it takes centuries.

As I said earlier, this is not about AA/FS, she was not a myth, she was a real human being.  The myth of survivors grew up way before she came on the scene.  The cult of the myth of survivors has counted among its membership many prominent and wealthy and learned people.  This myth has been proven to have no scientific basis, but other myths have been proven to have one.

I believe that most myths have some basis in fact.  I am not saying all, so don't stone me.  I just think that "hope springs eternal" (I don't remember who said that) and even the smallest nugget of information can be built on and expanded and latched onto by those who just "want to believe". 

We may see them as "nearly delusional" but because so many times myths (like the city of Troy) have been proven to be true, these individuals just can't stop hoping.


Offline Lemur

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Re: Time and myths
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2007, 09:23:31 AM »
Quote
Now AGAIN I am not saying that Anna Manahan HERSELF is worthy of "mythological" status, but I definately believe the STORY is indeed 20th century mythology...no doubt.

FA

Sure it's mythological, as long as it stays in the same category with such fictional myths and fantasies as  "Grimm's Fairy Tales" and not history.

Offline dmitri

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Re: Time and myths
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2007, 10:57:30 AM »
I wonder whether AA/FS was the Aphrodite Goddess that Gleb Botkin was Priest of? Now that would explain a few things. His cult of AA/FS = Aphrodite. What a myth or legend that would be!

Offline Annie

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Re: Time and myths
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2007, 10:58:38 AM »
I wonder whether AA/FS was the Aphrodite Goddess that Gleb Botkin was Priest of? Now that would explain a few things. His cult of AA/FS = Aphrodite. What a myth or legend that would be!

Well if he can imagine she was Anastasia, I guess he could also imagine she was the reincarnation of Aphrodite too.

Offline Mari

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Re: Time and myths
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2007, 01:33:24 AM »
Good Discussion!


Quote
Finally, there's the pedagogical one of guiding an individual through the inevitables of a lifetime. But even that's become impossible because we don't know what the inevitables of a lifetime are any more. They change from moment to moment."
A girl innocent of any political ties or involvement is thrust into the most horrible and inevitable circumstances of anyone's life. YET she "endures" and "Survives" those inevitabilities....

flexibly changes to meet her Environment and conquers it! She is well taken care of financially and marries! She followed her Bliss...which in her case was definitely a lot better life than She could have had as FS!