Author Topic: Karlovka - estate of GDss Elena Pavlovna  (Read 17786 times)

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Offline pouvoir aux canard

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Karlovka - estate of GDss Elena Pavlovna
« on: September 14, 2007, 10:56:30 AM »
Salve,

I would be interested in a discussion about Karlovka estate in Poltava oblast (Ukraina ? :-\). It belonged to Grand Duchess Elena Pavlovna (spouse of GD Michail Pavlovich).

In 1855  Elena Pavlovna decided to emancipate the serfs (900 "souls" ? more? less ?) on her own immense estate of Karlovka, and invited Kavelin to study the project.

Did she succeeded ? Where is exactly Karlovka estate ? Dis anyone has engravings, paintings, photos of this estate?? How many people lived on this estate? The princess wanted to build mills, factories, workshops... in order to procure incomes  for the liberated souls... was it done ??

She owned also the Mikhailovsky Palace, Kamenny Island, and Oranienbaum (Lomonosov).

Many thanks from

Mr Canard.

Note: here a WIKIPEDIA note on Kavelin (he became a friend of Elena Pavlovna)

Konstantin Dmitrievich Kavelin (Константин Дмитриевич Кавелин in Russian) (November 4, 1818 - May 5, 1885) was a Russian historian, jurist, and sociologist, sometimes called the chief architect of early Russian liberalism.

Scion of an old noble family, Kavelin graduated from the legal department of the Moscow University and read law at the University of St Petersburg from 1839. Together with Timofey Granovsky and Alexander Herzen, he was one of the leading Westerners. In 1855, Herzen published Kavelin's celebrated proposal for the emancipation of serfs, which cost him the lucrative position of tsesarevich's tutor. During the 1860s, Kavelin was elected President of the Free Economic Society and gradually drifted to the right. In his Short Review of Russian History (1887) he seconded many Slavophile opinions and praised state as the key institution of national history.

(Some scholars believe that Kavelin was a prototype of Stiva Oblonski in Leo Tolstoy's novel Anna)

Offline Reco

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Re: Karlovka - estate of GDss Elena Pavlovna
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2007, 07:28:11 PM »

Karlovka
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Karlovka may refer to:

Karlivka, a town in Poltava Oblast, Ukraine
Karlovka, name of several rural settlements in Russia

Offline Reco

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Re: Karlovka - estate of GDss Elena Pavlovna
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2007, 07:31:12 PM »
Karlivka
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Karlivka (Ukrainian: Карлівка, Russian: Карловка) is a city in Poltava Oblast, Ukraine. Population is 17,995 (2001).




 Administrative divisions of Poltava Oblast, Ukraine 
   
Raions: Chornukhynskyi | Chutivskyi | Dykanskyi | Hadyatskyi | Hlobynskyi | Hrebinkivskyi | Karlivskyi | Khorolskyi | Kobeliatskyi | Kotelevskyi | Kozelschynskyi | Kremenchutskyi | Lokhvytskyi | Lubenskyi | Mashivskyi | Myrhorodskyi | Novosanzharskyi | Orzhytskyi | Poltavskyi | Pyryatynskyi | Reshetylivskyi | Semenivskyi | Shyshatskyi | Velykobahachanskyi | Zinkivskyi
 
Cities: Chervonozavodske | Hadiach | Hlobyne | Hrebinka | Karlivka | Khorol | Kobeliaky | Komsomolsk | Kremenchuk | Lokhvytsia | Lubny | Myrhorod | Poltava | Pyriatyn | Zinkiv
 
Urban-type settlements: Chornukhy | Chutove | Dykanka | Kotelva | Kozelschyna | Mashivka | Novi Sanzhary | Orzhytsia | Reshetylivka | Semenivka | Shyshaky | Velyka Bahachka | more...
 
Villages: Velyki Sorochyntsi | more...
 

Offline Reco

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Offline pouvoir aux canard

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Re: Karlovka - estate of GDss Elena Pavlovna
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2007, 05:17:01 AM »
My dear Reco,

I examine your anwers and I think you are kiddddddddddddddding with me.... lol, lol, lol...

I am an old french duck BUT I know very well how to lead a research on Internet (that's a part of my job's skills) .

Eventualy  I cannot read (understand, talk ...)  nor russian language nor ukrainian language...

Best regards from

Mr Canard

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Karlovka - estate of GDss Elena Pavlovna
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2007, 09:29:09 AM »
The estate Karlovka was sutiated in the Konstantinogradskiy uezd,Poltavskya gubernija (now Poltavskaya oblast in the Ukraine) and was made of 12 villages (about 15 thousands villagers). In 1856 Elena Pavlovna's project was approved by Emperor Alexander II though he was not ready to discuss the reform and only in 1859 the rules on the Karlovka arrangement were issued finally. Seems that only a part of Elena Pavlovna's project was materialized.

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Karlovka - estate of GDss Elena Pavlovna
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2007, 09:36:58 AM »
Here's a map of the Poltavskaya oblast now.

http://travel.kyiv.org/map/e_polt.htm

The former Karlovka is Karlivka not far from Poltava.

Offline pouvoir aux canard

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Re: Karlovka - estate of GDss Elena Pavlovna
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2007, 11:35:33 AM »
MANY THANKS to Svetabel !!!

My dear Svetabel, your answer is very interesting AND IMPORTANT for me !

How can I  have further informations about the materialization - as you wisely wrote - of the Karlovka project of the G.D. Elena ?

I devotely kiss your hands many many time...

Mr Canard

Offline pouvoir aux canard

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Re: Karlovka - estate of GDss Elena Pavlovna
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2007, 11:38:37 AM »
French, Spanish, Italian and English ( :-[) are my languages ... I definetely do not understand German Russian Ukarinian...

Mr Canard

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Karlovka - estate of GDss Elena Pavlovna
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2007, 12:18:18 PM »
MANY THANKS to Svetabel !!!


How can I  have further informations about the materialization - as you wisely wrote - of the Karlovka project of the G.D. Elena ?

I devotely kiss your hands many many time...


You are welcome :D...Actually Elena Pavlovna divided her estate into 4 parts (so-called communities) and each quarter had its own government and trubinal (justice). The peasants got a sixth part of the land (they    leased the land with an option to buy).

French, Spanish, Italian and English ( :-[) are my languages ... I definetely do not understand German Russian Ukarinian...



Wow, you are a polyglot :)


Offline pouvoir aux canard

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Re: Karlovka - estate of GDss Elena Pavlovna
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2007, 12:27:31 PM »
And you are an Angel

Your devoted

Mr Canard

Offline Nadya_Arapov

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Re: Karlovka - estate of GDss Elena Pavlovna
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2008, 12:12:11 AM »
Dear Mr. Canard,

The information below was gleaned from an article written about Karlovka, "The Karlovka Reform," by the historian W. Bruce Lincoln. His article was published in the Slavic Review in 1968. I hope the information helps you.

Elena Pavlovna began attempting to improve the lives of the peasants of Karlovka in 1851. She sent her estate manager, Baron Engelhardt, a long list of orders regarding reforms she wished carried out. She limited the amount of time peasants were made to work in her fields. She insisted that a reasonable working period be set; one that would allow the peasants enough time to tend to their own crops and not just the landlord's. The peasants would not be forced to exceed that time limit.  She set regulations regarding the way in which bailiffs could utilize serfs' labor. During the harvest no peasant would be forced to help transport anything, that way they could remain close enough to harvest their own crops. For the same reason she refused to allow any peasant to be forced to labor in any village other than his own. Peasants were not to be made to perform any household work against their will. Whatever household work they did do would be deducted from the amount of time they were required to work in the fields. She also decreed that after the peasants had completed their required daily labor that their time was their own to do with as they chose and the overseers were not to interfere.

When Alexander II acceded to the throne in 1855 Elena began in earnest her efforts to fully emancipate the serfs at Karlovka. She initially directed her estate manager Baron Engelhardt to create a plan for their emancipation. It was Engelhardt who recommended that she grant the serfs one sixth of the land at Karlovka. He also suggested that she charge them two rubles per annum rent for each desiatina (about 2.7 acres) of land. In addition they would be granted the ability to purchase land within the allotment for 50 rubles per desiatina.

Elena felt his plans were insufficient, that they wouldn’t fully provide for her peasants, and she decided to enlist the help of Nikolai Miliutin. Nikolai was a moderate and enlightened bureaucrat by the standards of the day. He was the head of the economic division of the Ministry of the Interior. Miliutin accepted her challenge to improve upon Engelhardt's proposals in the hope that if emancipation at Karlovka was successful, other landowners would follow Elena's example, and that this would help bring about universal emancipation. It was Miliutin who decided to consult Konstantin Kavelin, who was a close personal friend of his.

In October of 1856 Miliutin completed his study and Elena received permission from Alexander II to carry out her plans at Karlovka. The Tsar also agreed to her request that she be allowed to discuss these plans with other landowners in Poltava. She hoped to convince these landowners to join in her efforts. It seems that her attempts to bring the Poltava nobles around to her way of thinking weren’t terribly successful. Vasily Tarnovsky and Prince L. V. Kochubey responded positively, but the rest were influenced by a reactionary landowner named M.P. Pozen, who was dead-set against her reforms.

She spent most 1856-1858 abroad, but kept in correspondence with Miliutin. She actually held a meeting in 1857 at Wildbad, Germany, attended by the great minds concerned with "the peasant question." Among the attendees were Konstantin Kavelin, Count Paul Kiselev, Vasily Tarnovsky and Alexander Abaza. The group concluded that it was not enough to free the serfs, but that they must be provided with sufficient land and the ability to self-govern.

Miliutin completed his plans for Karlovka in early 1858. Elena took his suggestion and then set about creating her own plans, based on his proposals, to free her serfs. It seems that she disagreed with Miliutin's suggestions on only one point - she felt they should be given more land than he suggested. She decreed that 44,000 desiatinas, nearly half of her estate lands, were to be given to the peasants. There would be a transition period of six years, during which the serfs would first pay their rent via labor. Later on, when more prosperous, they would begin to pay rents in cash. Village officials, to be elected by the peasants, would be put in charge of seeing to it that rents were paid. At the end of six years each peasant would be given their own individual plot of land and the option of either purchasing the land for 25 rubles per desiatina or of continuing to rent the land for 1.5 ruble per desiatina. Miliutin's plans were meticulous and explained in detail how each family could be enabled to save enough money to purchase their plots outright.

She submitted her proposal to the Committee on Peasant Affairs on 8 March 1858, but it was not reviewed by the committee until January 1859. Finally in May 1859 she was given permission to begin carrying out her plans, with a few alterations, for Karlovka. The alterations being that the size of the individual plots was reduced to 3/4 of a desiatina for each peasant. There would also be no transition period. Instead the peasants would be given the right to purchase their land whenever they chose for 25 rubles per desiatina. Those who did not purchase land would be allowed to live free of charge on their household plot and would be charged 1.5 rubles per annum for each desiatina of arable land they privately plowed. Rent would be subject to revision every twelve years and was calculated based on the median price of grain. Elena also agreed that should the government announce general emancipation in the future that she would extend any additional rights given by such a decree to her peasants.

Miliutin would later hold a prominent position on the Editing Commission (1859-1860) that drafted the act of emancipation in 1861. He benefited greatly from his work with Elena at Karlovka as it provided him with much needed practical experience and knowledge regarding the lives and living conditions of Russian serfs.

According to another article "Kavelin and Russian Liberalism," by Daniel Field also published in the Slavic Review (1973), Elena's plans were never fully implemented because just two years later universal emancipation was declared.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Karlovka - estate of GDss Elena Pavlovna
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2010, 09:08:30 PM »
Very interesting!

It is a bit confusing that the name of Grand Duchess Elena Pavlovna's morganatic Mecklenburg-Strelitz great grandchildren, the Counts Carlow, seems to be derived both from their inherited Karlovka estate as well as a village called Carlow in the Mecklenburg-Strelitz-ruled Principality of Ratzeburg (located between the Duchy of Holstein and Mecklenburg-Schwerin), an area that coïncidentally, unlike the heavily manorial Mecklenburgs proper, knew no peasant servitude, as it had been ruled by typically laissez-faire prince-bishops.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 09:19:56 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »