Author Topic: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...  (Read 80175 times)

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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2006, 09:40:03 AM »
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Wasn't his DNA traced through the y chromosome instead of using mtDNA? Since the nephews in question were sons of his sister Jane, they would share mtDNA with Jefferson, but not a y chromosome. They would also not share mtDNA with the kids.
  


I made my previous post before I saw yours, yes, I was thinking along these lines too.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2006, 10:31:01 AM »
Dear Helen and Annie,

Thanks, I was doing this from memory, so this helps. It's a little odd, isn't it, to see the words "Martha Jefferson" and "DNA" and "identity" showing up in another case!

Helen, I am really interested in Anne Morrow Lindbergh, not Charles, but of course, you get one, you get them both!

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S
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Re: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2006, 02:51:08 PM »
 Clearly you know little about Anna Manahan's last years. She was clearly suffering from substantial mental illness.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 10:17:33 AM by Alixz »

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Re: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2006, 03:24:16 PM »
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I don't think it was much of a "recovery". Clearly you know little about Anna Manahan's last years. She was clearly suffering from substantial mental illness.


Yes, she was. Like so many other old people.
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Offline Annie

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Re: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2006, 04:00:16 PM »
She wasn't all that stable when she was younger, either. She did spend years pretending to be Anastasia, and probably came to believe it because of her mental illness. She was completely disfunctional in ordinary life.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2006, 04:14:11 PM »
I wonder what percentage of those claiming to be OTMAA died with their boots on, so to speak? As in he/she spent their entire lives claiming the identity and never relinquished it, even on deathbeds?

[heads off to start compiling a list]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2006, 04:24:28 PM »
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I wonder what percentage of those claiming to be OTMAA died with their boots on, so to speak? As in he/she spent their entire lives claiming the identity and never relinquished it, even on deathbeds?

[heads off to start compiling a list]


Good question, can't wait for your list!  ;)  I believe that with most "claimants", they do hold on to their "identity" until they die, as such is the nature of this particular mental illness (delusions of grandeur, etc.)

Offline Annie

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Re: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2006, 04:27:39 PM »

I am sick to death of hearing about AA! I would love to hear more about these other claimants on the list. It would be so refreshing to hear a different story!

« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 04:54:20 PM by Alixz »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2006, 07:05:20 PM »
I wonder how the list was compiled.  Certainly far more than I had ever heard of. Are these just Russian  claimants or worldwide ?
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Offline Belochka

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Re: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2006, 07:34:09 PM »
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I wonder how the list was compiled.  Certainly far more than I had ever heard of. Are these just Russian  claimants or worldwide ?


Wonderful question Robert.

Somehow I doubt that there would be that many pretenders inside the Soviet Union. It would not have been politically appropriate to make such claims.


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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2006, 07:57:55 PM »
I think it was in one of the Massie books that after the revoultion and during the Civil War, there was a rush on claimants in Russia.  The total list he gave was not nearly  so high in numbers though.
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Offline Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2006, 09:01:54 PM »
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So how come AA was NOT insane?
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Do you know how many people suffering from mental illness at this very moment are "undiagnosed" and therefore untreated?  Thousands if not millions.  And all of them exhibit symptoms.  Unfortunately, stats would have been worse in AAs time because of the relative youth of psychology/psychiatry and a general public ignorance and negative attitude.  And even if AA had been AN, she still would have been mentally ill.  Just a mentally ill GD.

Also, if a person attempts suicide that's one of the biggest, reddest psychological flags there is.          
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.

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Re: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2006, 09:45:12 PM »
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  And even if AA had been AN, she still would have been mentally ill.  Just a mentally ill GD.    


You should read a little more, my dear. Dr. Hans Willige said that AA "lacked any symptoms of insanity". And he was a doctor. You and I are not.
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2006, 12:46:42 AM »
Dr. Willige treated Anna Andersen in 1931, and as you know from your reading, he was the last doctor who formally examined her for purposes of determining her mental health. She lived for over fifty years after that, so it is doubtful that his statements mattered much by the time she resided in Charlottesville, for example. He also distinguished between madness and psychopathic personality disturbance, of which there were signs even in 1931. (Kurth, 259-260). And while I think some weight must be given to the opinions of Willige, there have been enough advancements in the mental health field in terms of both diagnosis and treatment to make a 1931 estimation less than magisterial.

I post this here reluctantly, and will delete it and re-post on the new mental illness thread when everyone else does the same.

I have been unable to discover that any of the usual suspects --- Boodt, Goleniewski, Smith, etc. ---  recanted.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Non Romanov and more obscure royal pretenders/impostors/claimants...
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2006, 10:47:57 AM »
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You should read a little more, my dear. Dr. Hans Willige said that AA "lacked any symptoms of insanity". And he was a doctor. You and I are not.
Kind regards
Chat Noir

I am well read in the AA case, albeit not as much as some people here, and I am also familiar with the history of psychology.  In the 1920s and 1930s when AAs zenith was at its brightest psychology and psychiatry were still in their relative infancy as evidenced by the use of the word "insane" (which, by the by dear is an extremely outmoded and misleading term that today is relegated to the back room along with words such as "retarded").  AA mainly exhibited definite signs of a mood disorder (severe depression being the most probably) manifested in her suicide attempt.  Her inability to discuss her past life and
her acceptance of the personality and GD Anastasia also may be symptoms of a psychogenic fugue state.  She could not recover her past identity so she assumed a new one.  Personality wise, she was prone to unprovoked tantrums and more than once suffered from breakdowns (often resulting in her commission to a mental hospital because she was a danger to herself and others).  More than once, she escaped from the houses of her supporters and slept on park benches.  She was antisocial and uncooperative and just plain nasty most of the time.

Read Louis_Charles post and some of the others on this board, there are some already dealing with AAs mental state(s).      
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 10:19:36 AM by Alixz »
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.