Author Topic: End of the Monarchies  (Read 43469 times)

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Offline Adagietto

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #90 on: January 14, 2008, 05:25:04 AM »
'The events in Grenada had nothing to do with Britain or Mrs Thatcher.'  Really?? It wasn't improper for America, as a supposed ally of Great Britain, to invade a Commonwealth country, of which the British Queen moreover was head of state, without informing the British Prime Minister beforehand?  That was not merely improper, it was insulting. Such is the arrogance of power.

Offline dmitri

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #91 on: January 14, 2008, 06:46:22 AM »
Grenada is an independent realm which just happens to have Queen Elizabeth II as Queen. It has its own Governor-General who carries out the role of the Monarchy in Grenada. The British government has no connection with Grenada apart from a High Commissioner.

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2008, 09:23:49 AM »
So the monarch can not veto.  Then is the monarch a rubber stamp?

I know you have said that the monarch can send measures back to Commons but only with the advice of the PM.  That would still sound as if the monarch has no true power, only that which is "approved" by both PM and Parliament.

The Invasion of Grenada, codenamed Operation Urgent Fury, was an invasion of the island nation of Grenada by the United States of America and several other nations in response to the illegal deposition and execution of Grenadan Prime Minister Maurice Bishop. On October 25, 1983, the United States, Barbados, Jamaica and members of the Organization of Eastern Caribbean States landed ships on Grenada, defeated Grenadian and Cuban resistance and overthrew the military government of Hudson Austin.

The invasion received a mixed reception, although it enjoyed broad public support in the United States as well as in segments of the population in Grenada. October 25 is a national holiday in Grenada, called Thanksgiving Day, to commemorate this event. Conversely, the invasion was criticised by the United Kingdom, Trinidad and Tobago and Canada. Approximately 100 people lost their lives.

International opposition and criticism
Grenada was part of the Commonwealth of Nations and following the invasion it requested help from other Commonwealth members. The invasion was opposed by the United Kingdom, Trinidad & Tobago and Canada, among others.[7] British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher personally opposed the U.S. invasion, and her Foreign Minister, Geoffrey Howe, announced to the House of Commons on the day before the invasion that he had no knowledge of any possible U.S. intervention. Ronald Reagan, President of the United States, assured her that an invasion was not contemplated. Reagan later said, "She was very adamant and continued to insist that we cancel our landings on Grenada. I couldn't tell her that it had already begun."

After the invasion, Prime Minister Thatcher wrote to President Reagan:

This action will be seen as intervention by a Western country in the internal affairs of a small independent nation, however unattractive its regime. I ask you to consider this in the context of our wider East-West relations and of the fact that we will be having in the next few days to present to our Parliament and people the siting of Cruise missiles in this country...I cannot conceal that I am deeply disturbed by your latest communication."

The Organisation of Eastern Caribbean States (OECS) appealed to the United States, Barbados, and Jamaica for assistance. According to Mythu Sivapalan of the New York Times (October 29, 1983), this formal appeal was at the behest of the U.S. government, which had decided to take military action. U.S. officials cited the murder of Bishop and general political instability in a country near its own borders, as well as the presence of American medical students at St. George's University on Grenada, as reasons for military action. Sivapalan also claimed that the latter reason was cited in order to gain public support.

from Wikipedia

By the way, I know several of those former medical students whose records were lost in the upheaval.  Thay had the option to begin all over again in another university or just not to become doctors.





Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #93 on: January 14, 2008, 10:09:30 AM »
I do not see the monarchy as a "rubber stamp" but more as a part of the system of checks and balances  in an effective government process. It is the duty of the incumbant  government to "inform and consult" the sovereign. We have seen the result of failure to do the former, and failure to consult someone with over 50 years of world experience is simply foolish. Everyone in the UK who takers an oath for any government service, be it a clerk in  some obscure ministry, the armed forces  or Parlaiment. swears allegience to the sovereign. Not the government nor even the country. This  is a personal bond that is bound to be tested eventually, but for now, it is still in place with little opposition.
 The sovereign cannot propose or make laws, but can influence them.
 I see the monarchy as a mechanism that usually ticks along smoothly, quietly, with a little oil now and then to keep it going, but also must be taken down, dusted off and rewound to prevent it rusting into atrophy.
 Unity, responsibility and function.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Adagietto

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #94 on: January 14, 2008, 03:13:57 PM »
'The British government has no connection with Grenada apart from a High Commissioner.' Ah, what a wealth of political and historical sensitivity is revealed in that remark! Alixz has summarised the course of events leading up to the invasion; if anyone cannot see that America treated Britain in a contemptuous manner by initially deceiving the British government about its intentions and then giving it no prior notice of the plans, there is little purpose in trying to argue the point. That is not how friends are supposed to behave toward one another.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #95 on: January 14, 2008, 05:01:51 PM »
I think the USof A is very experienced with treating other nations with contempt!
:(
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline dmitri

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2008, 07:39:53 PM »
The British government can only hope to diplomatically influence Grenada. There are no constitutional links between Grenada and the United Kingdom. It is not a British colony. Grenada is an independent realm like Canada, Australia and New Zealand and a number of other realms. It is not British.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #97 on: January 15, 2008, 02:11:04 AM »
Some thoughts!

The Sleeping King
By John Fitzgerald  
Home Articles Essays Interviews Poetry Miscellany Reviews Books Archives Links

"Beauty is not only a terrible, but also a mysterious thing. There God and the devil are fighting for mastery, and the battlefield is the heart of man." DOSTOYEVSKY - "THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV"

 

The Kingdom of Heaven lies within." Endless repetition has dulled our senses somewhat to the truth of this phrase, so it is worth re-iterating that everything of value lies within ourselves and a prime example of this is our sense of Royalty - our awareness of the Royal principle. The Monarch is a deep-seated human archetype; a symbol of the Solar principle. Bearing this in mind, perhaps it is no great surprise that the forces behind the modern world are so keen to undermine Monarchy whenever and wherever they can.

continued here,
http://www.rosenoire.org/essays/sleeping-king.php

« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 02:13:46 AM by Ilias_of_John »
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline Adagietto

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #98 on: January 15, 2008, 04:23:53 AM »
I know that Grenada is not a British colony; it is merely that Britain has special ties with it for obvious historical reasons, and it lies within the British sphere of interest as a commonwealth country, and America therefore showed great insensitivity by sending troops into it without informing the British Prime Minister at least beforehand (let alone after having lied to the Brtish government about its intentions). It will be noted that most Commonwealth countries shared Britain's opininon on this matter. One might say, incidentally, that if Grenada is an indedpendent country, the USA itself had no right to intervene in its internal affairs. The pretext that it offered for the invasion was entirely specious, and could be used to justify an invasion of just about any unstable country in the world. Although the results within Grenada were beneficial, this set a very bad precedent.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #99 on: January 19, 2008, 06:51:26 PM »
Today in the newspaper The Age, one of Australia's leading papers, it has been announced that the Labor Federal Goverment is contemplating appointing one of its unsuccesful leaders as our next Governor General!
Mr Kim Beazley is a  former career politician of 27 years and a Republican!
It appears that the battle lines are drawn and we are about to cross the Rubicon!(sorry for the cliches!)
What the republican movement remembers though is that they lost a referendum in 1999 on the issue and they will now endeavour to hold a series of plebicites to change our way of life and structure of goverment in a way that is not legally binding ie against the constituition of the Commonwealth of Australia!
I say let the battle wagons be circled and the battle begin!(more cliches, I know!, sorry!)


How dare they attempt to change one of the most stable and successful systems for their own self centred aims of power and glory!
The Nation will not stand for it nor will the Judiciary or  the Armed Forces!
Before they attempt to convert us as they did in Greece, I challenge them to hold a vote of no confidence on our current system,(The Westminster)
they know they will lose and so they wont!


http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/is-beazley-the-queens-new-man/2008/01/19/1200620280743.html

http://www.theage.com.au/news/editorial/bomber-beazley-a-beaut-choice-for-gg/2008/01/19/1200620274197.html
 
« Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 07:01:25 PM by Ilias_of_John »
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline dmitri

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #100 on: January 19, 2008, 08:06:08 PM »
Beazley would be a harmless buffoon. He certainly though does not have the dignity of the incumbent. As Opposition Leader he lurched from one comical farce to another. If he is appointed he will love putting his snout in the vice-regal trough.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #101 on: January 19, 2008, 08:26:40 PM »
Seems half a day of political pressure from many Australians has forced them to change their minds again!


http://news.theage.com.au/no-former-politician-as-next-gg-rudd/20080120-1mza.html
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline dmitri

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #102 on: January 19, 2008, 10:24:03 PM »
Yes PM Rudd will blow which ever way the wind blows. He is as weak as anything and a pathetic populist with no backbone. Beazley wouldn't have been as bad as the pathetic Deane. He was utterly hopeless and politically naive.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #103 on: January 23, 2008, 05:28:05 PM »
Dmitri you are getting your Hollingsworth's mixed up with your Deane's.
PS,  ps have a look at what the UN has to say about human developments and the order that nations rank in!
It seems that constituitonal monarchys rate fairly high!

High Human Development
Iceland
Norway
Australia
Canada
Ireland
Sweden
Switzerland
Japan
Netherlands
France
Finland
United States
Spain
Denmark
Austria
United Kingdom
Belgium
Luxembourg
New Zealand
Italy
Hong Kong, China (SAR)
Germany
Israel
Greece
Singapore
Korea, Rep. of
Slovenia
Cyprus
Portugal
Brunei Darussalam
Barbados
Czech Republic
Kuwait
Malta
Qatar
Hungary
Poland
Argentina
United Arab Emirates
Chile
Bahrain
Slovakia
Lithuania
Estonia
Latvia
Uruguay
Croatia
Costa Rica
Bahamas
Seychelles
Cuba
Mexico
Bulgaria
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Tonga
Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
Antigua and Barbuda
Oman
Trinidad and Tobago
Romania
Saudi Arabia
Panama
Malaysia
Belarus
Mauritius
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Russian Federation
Albania
Macedonia, TFYR
Brazil
 Medium Human Development
Dominica
Saint Lucia
Kazakhstan
Venezuela, Rep. Bov.
Colombia
Ukraine
Samoa

Thailand
Dominican Republic
Belize
China
Grenada
Armenia
Turkey
Suriname
Jordan
Peru
Lebanon
Ecuador
Philippines
Tunisia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Fiji
Iran, Islamic Rep. of
Paraguay
Georgia
Guyana
Azerbaijan
Sri Lanka
Maldives
Jamaica
Cape Verde
El Salvador
Algeria
Viet Nam
Occupied Palestinian Territories
Indonesia
Syrian Arab Republic
Turkmenistan
Nicaragua
Moldova
Egypt
Uzbekistan
Mongolia
Honduras
Kyrgyzstan
Bolivia
Guatemala
Gabon
Vanuatu
South Africa
Tajikistan
So Tom and Principe
Botswana
Namibia
Morocco
Equatorial Guinea
India
Solomon Islands
Lao, People's Dem. Rep.
Cambodia
Myanmar
Bhutan
Comoros
Ghana
Pakistan
Mauritania
Lesotho
Congo
Bangladesh
Swaziland
Nepal
Madagascar
Cameroon
Papua New Guinea
Haiti
Sudan
Kenya
Djibouti
Timor-Leste
Zimbabwe
Togo
Yemen
Uganda
Gambia
 Low Human Development
Senegal
Eritrea
Nigeria
Tanzania, U. Rep. of
Guinea
Rwanda
Angola
Benin
Malawi
Zambia
Cte d'Ivoire
Burundi
Congo, Dem. Rep.

Ethiopia
Chad
Central African Republic
Mozambique
Mali
Niger
Guinea-Bissau
Burkina Faso
Sierra Leone
 
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline dmitri

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #104 on: January 23, 2008, 06:03:15 PM »
No confusion over Hollingworth or Deane. Deane broke vice-regal convention by criticising the elected government. He was a stooge of Keating. Perhaps you are not aware that Keating had promised him to be first President. He didn't get his way and Deane has been sulking about it ever since. Deane should have handed back his knighthood as should have Cowen and Mason - all on the record supporters for a republic. When do these people ever get the message that the republic was defeated well and truly? Even Rudd is unwilling to bring up the topic at present.