Author Topic: End of the Monarchies  (Read 41978 times)

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Offline Learning

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2007, 01:48:24 PM »
Thanks again, HerrKaiser.

So the Wettins paraded through Saxony and people recognized them as the former royal family? Interesting. Any chance that in honor of the 100th anniversary of the November Revolution in a few years we can restore the monarchs? Maybe we could start an internet campaign?

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2007, 06:31:10 PM »
hehehe! very funny indeed! The main problem, relative to your timetable, is that most people are not aware that Germany HAD a revolution that overthrew the government just as in Russia. So few are know that an anniversary is coming up; most of the world of people aware of the end of WWI know about November 11 and Armistice and then the Versailles Treaty 8 months later.

I think a better resurrection would be to redo the Versailles Treaty, at least in spirit, and make an international event of the action by stating that the records are being corrected to adjust what was known to be a trigger for most of the remaining 20th century and 21st century global messes.
HerrKaiser

Offline Learning

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2007, 06:38:06 AM »
Let's do both: as part of the formal undoing of the Versailles Treaty, Georg Friedrich could be crowned/installed as German Emperor, Titular King of Prussia, and Marraf of Brandenburg. He's seems like a likable enough monarch!

I would think it appalling that most Germans don't know that there was a revolution in 1918, but then what most Americans apparently don't know about history or even contemporary politics is treasonous!

Offline Sebran

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2007, 04:38:57 PM »
Ignorance

Offline Norbert

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2008, 11:44:05 AM »
It seems politicians are not keen on handing over power to a figurehead . Hense Hungary and the Balkans were not restored after the fall of the Wall, despite the popularity of Otto and King Michael !

Offline CHRISinUSA

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2008, 03:51:29 PM »
Certainly, politicians would be loathe to cede any power - even symbolic - to a hereditary monarch these days.  Seems to me that the only way a monarchy would be restored today in one of the former European monarchies would be after a groundswell from the public. 

And that unlikely event would probably require the emergence of a superstar in the former ruling house (in the vein of Diana of Wales, or Eva Peron), someone who the entire nation adored and rallied behind.

Personally I think it'd be great to see monarchy restored in France, Italy, Portugal, Russia, and the various German states.  But I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime.

Offline dmitri

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2008, 08:32:30 PM »
It is extremely unlikely that there will be any restorations. The only one that may be possible is Crown Prince Alexander II in Serbia. The rest are gone forever. Have you ever noticed that republicans always demand plebicites or referendums on ditching a monarchy. Of course republics never consider monarchists should have the opportunity to have a plebicite or referendum on restoring a monarchy. Very few republics in fact are at all democratic. Once you install a President, it is no longer possible for this sort of Head of State to ever represent more than half the population. Republics by their very nature are partisan and political no matter whether the powers of the President are severely curtailed. You always end up with yet another politician. As for Germany there will be no restoration. As for Kaiser Friedrich III being a supporter of Bismarck one wonders where there is any verifiable information on this. As for Britain being scared of a united Germany that is not supportable. Both Queen Victoria and Prince Albert actively sought the marriage of their eldest daughter with the future Kaiser Friedrich III. They hoped such a marriage would bring about a united Germany led by Prussia. Nobody expected it would end up being ruled by elderly Kaiser Wilhelm I and Bismarck for so long or the premature death of Kaiser Friedrich III or the assumption of power of Kaiser Wilhelm II as it all happened. It is very much to be doubted that Bismarck would have stayed in power had Kaiser Friedrich III been healthy. There would have been changes and perhaps no world war. The Stockmar Plan is well documented. What Britain was alarmed about was the Germany of Kaiser Wilhelm II. That had nothing to do with Kaiser Friedrich III and his wishes.   

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2008, 11:20:39 AM »
As for Britain being scared of a united Germany that is not supportable.  

QV was not the final word on the political concerns of the day. It is well documented that the three wars leading to and the creation of the German Empire was of grave concern to the balance of power politics on a global scale and particularly in Britain; most definitely. The princess royal's marriage had some great opportunities for Anglo-German relations, but it was not significant in its ability to lead the political tide once the Empire was in place. Far greater powers and interests prevailed on both sides of the channel.

I do agree that republics do not convert back to monarachies, but why should they? It is rare to find a nation of people as humankind progresses who wish to give up their rights as individuals to a monarch/dictator/emperor. they're all essentially the same thing.

Not sure what you mean, dmitri, when you say "Once you install a President, it is no longer possible for this sort of Head of State to ever represent more than half the population." That is taking the political party system to a relatively unrealistic extreme. Nonetheless, that in effect is a good thing because it keeps the dynamics of a nation/society always in flux and progressing rather than forcing uniform thinking and rules that a monarch or dictator would impose.
HerrKaiser

Offline Adagietto

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2008, 03:24:22 PM »
When people talk about the restoration of monarchies in Europe, they are plainly thinking in terms of constitutional monarchies such as we have in Britain or Scandinavia. A monarch can perfectly well be a figurehead as opposed to a dictator. Personally I think there are distinct advantages in having a King or Queen as head of state rather than a politician; but once a monarchy has been abolished, it is exceedingly difficult to restore it for a wide variety of reasons. The idea that it would involve a regression to a system of arbitrary power is not one of them. One might point, incidentally, to the extremely successful restoration in Spain. Are the Spaniards therefore less free than the French or Germans?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 03:26:14 PM by Adagietto »

Offline dmitri

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2008, 08:56:51 PM »
Very well said. Nobody in their right mind would want any other form of monarchy apart from a constitutional monarchy restored. A constitutional monarchy is always superior to a republic as it provides a non-political head of state and lets the elected prime minister, a politician, get on with running the government. It is not wise to confuse the roles of head of state and head of government. 

Offline Norbert

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2008, 08:31:42 AM »
There seems to be a great interest in the monarchies of Montenegro and Georgia anyone have any thoughts or knowledge?

Offline Silja

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2008, 12:24:47 PM »
Very well said. Nobody in their right mind would want any other form of monarchy apart from a constitutional monarchy restored. A constitutional monarchy is always superior to a republic as it provides a non-political head of state and lets the elected prime minister, a politician, get on with running the government. It is not wise to confuse the roles of head of state and head of government. 

There are many republics where you don't confuse the roles of head of state and head of government, so I don't agree with the idea that a monarchy "is always superior to a republic". In Germany, for instance, the head of state is NOT the head of the government, and yet Germany is obviously NOT a monarchy.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2008, 03:25:51 PM »
Very well said. Nobody in their right mind would want any other form of monarchy apart from a constitutional monarchy restored. A constitutional monarchy is always superior to a republic as it provides a non-political head of state and lets the elected prime minister, a politician, get on with running the government. It is not wise to confuse the roles of head of state and head of government. 

Silja is correct, and it is ludicrous to suggest that "a constitutional monarchy is always superior to a republic...".  :o  I think millions of Americans would take issue with that firm statement, and don't forget that blip in world history called the American Revolution.

The original questions on this thread were about "restoring" the monarchies and as such a restoration is bringing back what was there before. If the change in discussion is about resurrecting a monarchy system in Europe to mirror that which is in Great Britain, I think that is a different subject.

in my opinion, the idea that any monarch be recreated to serve the purpose of historical continuity without any real value to the nation in terms of guiding strategy, political agendas or anything else would be a huge waste of money for most nations and be a step backwards on the course of human rights evolution that strives to lessen the class struggle rather than recreate it.
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Offline dmitri

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2008, 06:24:11 PM »
The pseudo ceremonial monarch/president in Germany is not one favoured by many Germans ... they have no say whatsoever in who this person is .. politicians decide they know better than the people and elect the President themselves ... not much of a republic there .. as for USA has anybody wondered why no other country on earth has copied that particular republican system? As for restorations in Germany those days are well and truly over whatever any of us may wish. It will be interesting to see whether anything happens in Georgia. In the meantime the Nepalese people are about to descend into further chaos which is indeed a tragedy.

Alixz

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2008, 06:32:01 PM »
As an American, I just want to note that a Republic and a Democracy are not the same thing.

Democracy:  "[T]he democratic method is that institutional arrangement for arriving at political decisions in which individuals acquire the power to decide by means of a competitive struggle for the people's vote."  More clearly: the democratic method is one in which people campaign competitively for the people's votes to achieve the power to make public decisions. This definition is the sharpest.


Republic:

A republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of:

1) An Executive Officer (Article II of the US Constitution)

(2) A legislative body: (Article I of the US Constitution) with the power of appointment and through the power of legislation can raise revenue and appropriate expenditures in addition to drafting public policy.

(3) A judiciary (Article III of the US Constitution) to pass upon the justice and legality of their government acts and to recognize and enforce individual and sovereign rights.

(4) Expressed and enforced inherent individual rights, (The US  Bill of Rights (Amendments 1-10; additional Amendments 11-27).

Remove one of the four checks and balances of a Republic and a country begins becoming an Autocracy.

Add another element with personal involvement and individual say and the country slides toward democracy.