Author Topic: Pronounciation  (Read 219506 times)

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Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Pronounciation
« Reply #240 on: May 02, 2010, 05:28:02 PM »
Leuchtenberg (semi-royal French-Bavarian-Russian ducal dynasty) really is a name with a lot of different pronunciations!

The original German prounciation is of course ['lɔɪ̯tənbɛrk]. The Russians write it Лейхтенберг and thus pronounce it /leixtenberg/.
How do the French pronounce it? /lʃtenberg/?

Today I heard yet another pronunciation. In a TV interview about the restored and re-opened Oscarshall Castle in Oslo, which was built by King Oscar I and Queen Josephine of Leuchtenberg, Queen Sonja pronounced her predecessor's "last name" as /'leiktenberg/!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 05:30:08 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline Dust_of_History

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Re: Pronounciation
« Reply #241 on: May 03, 2010, 10:42:40 AM »
I'm living near Schleswig and I also pronounce it "Gottorf" with a short o.

Funny that you who live there say Gottorf, while all we foreigners say Gottorp!

Maybe that's because in old German spelling "ph" was pronounced like "f". The official web page is also using "Gottorf": http://www.schloss-gottorf.de/ (there is a mistake: it should be "Schloss" not "Schlo").  

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Pronounciation
« Reply #242 on: May 05, 2010, 10:07:49 AM »
Maybe that's because in old German spelling "ph" was pronounced like "f".
No. it's because of the historic sound change known as the High German Consonant Shift, by which a Low German /p/ is /(p)f/ in High German.

Compare Low German dorp and pund (and English thorp and pound!) with High German Dorf and Pfund.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Pronounciation
« Reply #243 on: May 06, 2010, 10:59:14 AM »
I am curious, how do English-speakers pronounce Saxe-, as in Saxe-Coburg-Gotha? As in the original French, pluss a liaison, so that it becomes /sakse/?

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Pronounciation
« Reply #244 on: May 06, 2010, 02:43:46 PM »
I think it depends whether the English speaker has learned German or not.

Having done German, I say Sakser- (I hadn't appreciated it was actually French). However, the Marquis de Saxe, as a Frenchman, is Sax to my ears.

Ann

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Pronounciation
« Reply #245 on: May 06, 2010, 02:49:02 PM »
I think it depends whether the English speaker has learned German or not.

Having done German, I say Sakser- (I hadn't appreciated it was actually French). However, the Marquis de Saxe, as a Frenchman, is Sax to my ears.

It is French. As I am sure you know, it's Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha in German. Sachse (pronounced /'sakse/) means (a) "Saxon" in German.

Well, as long as one avoids Sxy-Cowburg-Gotcha.....:-)

Offline Dust_of_History

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Re: Pronounciation
« Reply #246 on: May 06, 2010, 03:58:32 PM »
Maybe that's because in old German spelling "ph" was pronounced like "f".
No. it's because of the historic sound change known as the High German Consonant Shift, by which a Low German /p/ is /(p)f/ in High German.

Compare Low German dorp and pund (and English thorp and pound!) with High German Dorf and Pfund.

Oh I see. ^^ The funny is, although I live in Northern Germany I can't speak Low German. ^^ I only know a few words. I'm surprised that the pronunciation "Gottorp" has its origins in Low German.

Offline MarshallHowell

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Re: Pronounciation
« Reply #247 on: May 14, 2010, 10:28:24 AM »
I'm reading Anna Kerenina and can't pronounce many of the names. Could someone help me with "shcherbatskaya"?

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Pronounciation
« Reply #248 on: May 14, 2010, 10:36:22 AM »
On the BBC Anna Karenina series (the best adaptation in my view), it was Sherbatskya (Sher- as in sherbet, sky as in sky).

Ann

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Pronounciation
« Reply #249 on: May 14, 2010, 02:16:50 PM »
For a good insight into the consonant cluster represented by the first letter of the name Щербацкая, see Wikipedia: Shch

BTW this is the same consonant cluster that is problematic in the surname of French queen Maria Leszczyńska, discussed in this post.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 02:21:42 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Pronounciation
« Reply #250 on: June 05, 2010, 09:14:10 PM »
Wikipedia has a great phonetic transcritpion of Nicholas's full name in Russian: [ nʲ ɪ k ɐ ˈl a j   ə lʲ ɪ k ˈs a n d r ə vʲ ɪ ʨ   r ɐ ˈm a n ə f ]
Too bad there aren't phonetic transcriptions of AOTMAA's names.
Am I right in assuming that OTMA's patronymic is pronounced [ nʲ ɪ k ɐ ˈl a j ə v n ə ]? Or should some part of the -evna also be palatalized?

Speaking of palatalisation, it hadn't dawned on me untill now that the last sound in "tsar", царь, is actually pronounced palatalized, as [ ts a rʲ ]. But that is of course why the soft sign, ь, is there!
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 09:17:59 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline nena

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Re: Pronounciation
« Reply #251 on: June 06, 2010, 12:45:03 PM »
Am I right in assuming that OTMA's patronymic is pronounced [ nʲ ɪ k ɐ ˈl a j ə v n ə ]? Or should some part of the -evna also be palatalized?
The most correct pronunciation - according to what I have heard in TV documentaries and movies on them.

Quote
Speaking of palatalisation, it hadn't dawned on me untill now that the last sound in "tsar", царь, is actually pronounced palatalized, as [ ts a rʲ ]. But that is of course why the soft sign, ь, is there!

Exactly! It is soft letter that makes word sounding soft and not so loud. It is mixed with other letter while saying the word.
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Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Pronounciation
« Reply #252 on: June 15, 2010, 08:10:47 AM »
I am curious, how do English-speakers pronounce Saxe-, as in Saxe-Coburg-Gotha? As in the original French, pluss a liaison, so that it becomes /sakse/?
I think it depends whether the English speaker has learned German or not.

Having done German, I say Sakser- (I hadn't appreciated it was actually French). However, the Marquis de Saxe, as a Frenchman, is Sax to my ears.

It is French. As I am sure you know, it's Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha in German. Sachse (pronounced /'sakse/) means (a) "Saxon" in German.

Well, as long as one avoids Sxy-Cowburg-Gotcha.....:-)

I now have it on good authority from a native French speaker that a liaison can only link a consonant to a vowel and not the other way around, and that Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha is pronounced /saks.ko.bur.go.ta/ in French. (Only in Marseillais-accented French would one read it /sak.se.co.bur.go.ta/.) And that in (Upper) Saxon, Sachsen is Sachs'n with the final n retained. (N-dropping in final -en turns out to be a very Rhenian phenomena, from Bade_ via Hesse_ to Vlaandere_!)

So I don't understand where some of the English-speaking commentators in royalty documentaries get their pronunciatioon from? Perhaps Dutch!? :-)
Does anybody know how the royals themselves pronounce(d) it?

I'm surprised that the pronunciation "Gottorp" has its origins in Low German.
Unless they are Slavic, Danish or Frisian, all place-names in Northern Germany have their origin in Saxon / Low German! That's why your state capital is called Kiel and not Keil! :-)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 08:37:49 AM by Fyodor Petrovich »

toscany

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Re: Pronounciation
« Reply #253 on: June 25, 2010, 02:27:32 PM »

[/quote]

I now have it on good authority from a native French speaker that a liaison can only link a consonant to a vowel and not the other way around, and that Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha is pronounced /saks.ko.bur.go.ta/ in French. (Only in Marseillais-accented French would one read it /sak.se.co.bur.go.ta/.) And that in (Upper) Saxon, Sachsen is Sachs'n with the final n retained. (N-dropping in final -en turns out to be a very Rhenian phenomena, from Bade_ via Hesse_ to Vlaandere_!)

So I don't understand where some of the English-speaking commentators in royalty documentaries get their pronunciatioon from? Perhaps Dutch!? :-)

Does anybody know how the royals themselves pronounce(d) it?
[/quote]

It sound like you have the right pronunciation covered well, FP.  If there is a Belgian or someone that still speaks high German on here, may be they would give a bit more detail.

The English speaking commentators are going to use the appropriate English translation of the names, noting a British historian - pronouncing every vowel, etc.

Offline Beautiful_Anastasia

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Re: Pronounciation
« Reply #254 on: June 29, 2010, 06:03:41 AM »
Never mind Scherbatskaya! How do you pronounce Karenina? And is it [Obb-lonn-skee] or [Obb-lonn-skI]?
Emily x