Author Topic: If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?  (Read 11501 times)

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Offline nerilka

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If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?
« on: October 10, 2007, 01:01:39 PM »
A question just occured to me...If history had gone differently and thier had been no Norman conquest, who, as far we can tell, would be sitting on the throne now? I know king Harold had a couple of children...Impossible to really know, i guess, but  food for thought :)

Offline Kimberly

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Re: If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2007, 03:48:42 PM »
Well, according to Alison Weir, Elizabeth II can trace her lineage back to Cerdig, King of the Saxons if thats any help ;)
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Offline Emperor of the Dominions

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Re: If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2007, 04:58:40 PM »
Didn't Tony Robinson make a programme about a year or two ago. I believe it was a spin off to his timewatch team programme. If memory serves, the current line resides in Australia and has something to do with the Plantagantes.

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Offline carl fraley

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Re: If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2007, 06:27:47 PM »
that's weird... if there had been no Battle of Hastings, and Duke WIlliam never left normandy, the plantageneats (spelling?) would  never have come to the throne, they plantag came through the Empress Matilda and her husband, Count Geofrey of Anjou.  ??

Offline Ex-Princess Lisa

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Re: If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2007, 07:32:36 PM »
Yes, Matilda was William the Conquerors grand-daughter through his son Henry I.

Matildas son was Henry II Plantagenet .

What I've never been able to understand is why is the crest of William I through to Henry I shield got 2 lions on it, but Henry II to Edward III has got 3 lions on it?
Where did Henry II get the extra lion from?

Is it because Matildas husband Geoffrey Count of Anjou also had a shield crest with one or more lions on it, (which would indicate he was the same male line as William I) and the lions all got added together.

If William I and Geoffrey Count of Anjou have a common male ancestor, who is it? How are they related?

Offline carl fraley

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Re: If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2007, 08:38:29 PM »
Now i don't know how true it is and i could b e wrong but i read somewhere (can't remember where) that Henry II adopted the 3 lions b/c he ruled 3 "countries" as his own patrimony (england, NOrmandy, Anjou) or his 3 main titles (major titles) whereas William through henry I were just Dual Sovereigns....

Like i said I can't remember where I read it nor if it's true.. just supposition

Offline dmitri

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Re: If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2007, 03:28:49 AM »
What if there had been no Adam and Eve? ... really!!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline nerilka

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Re: If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2007, 01:18:22 PM »
Adam and Eve are debateable...BoH is not; Early English history if facinating to me and I was looking for educated opinions And discussion..guess I am outa luck here.

Offline Ex-Princess Lisa

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Re: If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2007, 04:13:10 PM »
I found this today on wikipedia about the Barons of Loughmoe, someone on this site posted a link to it.

"As noted by O'Hart, according to a tradition, Sir Hugh was the first Norman to land at Pevensey Bay, the first to do a deed of Arms by storming the ruins of the old Roman Castle, where a party of Harold's soldiers lay entrenched, and the first to win a grant of land from William the Conqueror in 'guerdon of the deed' . No evidence exists to support this claim. Hugh's son Dyno, however, was Keeper of the Bedchamber to William the Conqueror, a strong indication of military association between the Purcells and the King."

Does anyone know who O'Hart was? A historian?


Offline Adagietto

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Re: If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2007, 04:33:08 PM »
Sorry, can't help on O'Hart. On the main question, the first thing that first occurs to me is how different the English language would probably have been; without the introduction of that whole parallel vocabulary from the French (among much else), it might have remained a pure Germanic language like German and Dutch. And what about English literature? Anglo-Saxon literature seems to have been the richest vernacular literature in Europe in its time, so goodness knows how it might have developed if French had not largely superseded it as the language of culture and court for such a long time. What a risk, though! No Chaucer. Shakespeare etc. etc. And I very much like the way in which English has been able to absorb elements from all manner of sources.

One cannot of course trace the Anglo-Saxon royal line forward to its presumed modern descendants because the marriages, not to mention the lives (and frequently the deaths, e.g. in battle), of its leading members would have been so utterly different if it had remained in power. One is bound to wonder if England would never again have been successfully invaded from the continent after the arrival of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes. Maybe it would have turned in on itself and become a little insular world of its own. And what a difference that would have made in its turn to the history of the rest of the world!

Offline nerilka

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Re: If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2007, 04:56:47 PM »
Thank you all for the info!I am going to look up O'hart now! I like to believe even if we had never had a Shakespeare or Chaucer, there might have been equally great Art and culture we would glorify today.

Offline Ex-Princess Lisa

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Re: If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2007, 06:27:12 PM »
I've just found the answer to my own question.

"O'Hart, J. Irish Pedigree 5th Edition. 1923"

I do not think you will find much in there about the Battle of Hastings.

This sounds more promising  -  "Archives of Normandy in the Prefecture, Rouen." 

I do not know what it is , but it sounds good.

Offline Ex-Princess Lisa

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Re: If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2007, 06:30:36 PM »
I've just found the answer to my own question.

"O'Hart, J. Irish Pedigree 5th Edition. 1923"

I do not think you will find much in there about the Battle of Hastings.

This sounds more promising  -  "Archives of Normandy in the Prefecture, Rouen."  

I do not know what it is , but it sounds good.

Offline Terence

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Re: If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2007, 12:40:40 AM »
For anyone interested in the Battle of Hastings I found this site you might enjoy.  It seems to be well researched.
http://www.bayeuxtapestry.co.uk/

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Re: If There was no Battle of Hastings, what then ?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2010, 02:18:56 AM »
What I've never been able to understand is why is the crest of William I through to Henry I shield got 2 lions on it, but Henry II to Edward III has got 3 lions on it?
Where did Henry II get the extra lion from?

Is it because Matildas husband Geoffrey Count of Anjou also had a shield crest with one or more lions on it, (which would indicate he was the same male line as William I) and the lions all got added together.

Now i don't know how true it is and i could b e wrong but i read somewhere (can't remember where) that Henry II adopted the 3 lions b/c he ruled 3 "countries" as his own patrimony (england, NOrmandy, Anjou) or his 3 main titles (major titles) whereas William through henry I were just Dual Sovereigns....

Another theory is that Henry II and his sons adopted the three lions when they through Eleanor of Aquitaine also became Dukes of Aquitaine, whose arms are: Gules a lion passant guardant Or armed and langued Azure.
Aquitaine was a duchy and thus more prestigeous than Anjou, which was a mere county.
Allegedly the single lion of Aquitaine is the crest, i.e. the part on top of the helm above the shield, in the current royal arms.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 02:28:18 AM by Фёдор Петрович »