Author Topic: Passionate Beliefs  (Read 23002 times)

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Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Passionate Beliefs
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2004, 12:41:42 PM »
Michelle.
I have tried and tried and tried to be polite, fair, and to keep things civil. I have had enough.
YOU Michelle, are frankly, the source of much of the rancor, bad feelings and discord here. I can not begin to tell you how many private complaints I have gotten about you, and not from the people you might think.

I will NOT warn you again, unless you stop the nasty and personal attacks, you will be asked to leave the Forum. Period.

This is in no way based on your positions, but is only based on your conduct.

I've had it. You are on notice. Behave or be gone.

Forum Admin.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Passionate Beliefs
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2004, 01:47:41 PM »
Quote
Dear Helen_Azar. Yes, I indeed post my thoughts. However, I will no comment any further. Like I said, I do like reading your theories & ideas that come up. Particularly the scientific eveidence when it is presented in terms that laymen such as I can understand. THAT, is indeed a great ability I appreciate very much. I see no reason to comment unless I have a valid question, not accusation or condemnation.
 You have been quite instrumental in just that- new coherence to things that were quite cloudy to many of of.
As I have  stated my thoughts on the whole subject before, I see no reason to harp on them but I like reading the evidence put before us when done in an intelligent, even humourous manner. And hopefully new !
Cheers,
Robert


Robert, I was just kidding with you  about not being indifferent. I hope I have been of some help to explain this, as this is my goal here ;D

Helen
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline Janet_W.

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Re: Passionate Beliefs
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2004, 01:57:25 PM »
I very much like the idea of discussing our personal beliefs about the question of Anastasia--and establishing the difference between our feelings vs. evidence and scientific proof.

That being said, I will add that human behavior never fails to amaze me. And I suppose that's why many of us are posting at this website, because we are interested in the way certain people interacted with each other one hundred years ago and more, and how their interactions affected not only history, but current times as well.

But while we're posting at this site re: the behaviors and actions of people in history, perhaps we need to examine our own behaviors as well.

I've noticed quite a few postings that go from defensive to scatalogical in a nanosecond.

I've also noted some rather disingenous postings which begin politely, then end on vicious and accusatory notes.

If people want to "flame" each other, perhaps they need to do the computer equivalent of "taking it outside," i.e., instant message each other. In other words, let's keep the forum civil, and those who are carrying a grudge should carry it "outside" and not subject the rest of us. It's one thing to politely agree to disagree; it's quite another to disembowel someone who isn't in lockstep with you.

Also, I think we're all of an age to select appropriate language for our posts. What may be just fine during an in-person situation, and/or with your friends, can look crude and aggressive in print.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Passionate Beliefs
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2004, 01:59:37 PM »
Quote
Hello, Here I am-
    Yes, like it or not, I am back, at least for "group therapy."
    
 


ISteinke, I am glad you are back too. Maybe we can all try to discuss this in a less inflammatory and more friendly and  intellectual manner now. I also think the whole AA-FS-AN story is fascinating, even if I don't believe she was AN, she is an interesting person in her own right. I hope someone does go to Germany and researches this some more just to finally figure out who she was exactly, whether FS or someone else.  BTW, back when this case came to courts in Germany, they didn't have DNA evidence, but if they did, the case would have been dismissed as soon as they got the results...
And I also really meant it about that molecular biology book, if you want it, it's yours  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline Evanescence

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Re: Passionate Beliefs
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2004, 03:36:51 PM »
I'm not emotionally attached. But everyone seems to only look at the DNA evidence. There are much more evidence supporting the AA and AN case.

Also why didn't Ella's preserved finger match the DNA of Alexandra Feodorovna (I love typing her name ;D)??

Also instead of just looking at the DNA evidence you need to look at everything at both sides to make a clear judgement.

Another thing, I just watched the MTV Roma Music Awards... Usher does NOT deserve to be best male!! >:(
Hey, I'm only 15 gimme a break.

Anyways, back to the topic.
Ashlee Simpson lip synching at SNL? Damn, that liar!

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Passionate Beliefs
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2004, 03:47:09 PM »
Quote


Also why didn't Ella's preserved finger match the DNA of Alexandra Feodorovna (I love typing her name ;D)??



Hi Evanescence,

If you would really like to understand more about the Ella's finger issue, and a little more about DNA evidence in general, I and another colleague just wrote an article about this, and it also addresses the "finger question" . The article is supposed to be published in January, but if you would like an answer sooner, PM me...

Helen  :)


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline Lanie

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Re: Passionate Beliefs
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2004, 03:49:29 PM »
Quote
Also why didn't Ella's preserved finger match the DNA of Alexandra Feodorovna (I love typing her name ;D)??


Because it probably isn't Ella's finger but Varvara's.  The whole deal that it was Ella's finger seems just to be a typical sensational rumor.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Lanie »

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Re: Passionate Beliefs
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2004, 03:53:52 PM »
The finger used might not even be from either one of them. The chain of custody and actual provenance are a bit murky. The two bodies in Jerusalem should both be sampled and tested to be sure.

Offline Merrique

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Re: Passionate Beliefs
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2004, 04:33:52 PM »
I agree with something  Janet_W said....human behavior never fails to amaze me.

I just don't understand why some people here feel the need to resort to sarcastic remarks and personal attacks on one another to prove that their point is the right one.
We can all see there are plenty of believers that AA was AN,or AA was FS,or AA wasn't AN,or AA wasn't FS.Everyone has their own opinions and beliefs on this subject.And for some nothing will change their minds on these beliefs,not even DNA evidence,which proves the matter closed that AA wasn't AN to me.

I just can't understand why everyone can't discuss these issues in a civil manner.Why some people on here feel that everyone is out to get them because they disagree with their comments.Everyone on here,myself included,should be more mature than this.

I think we all should remember why we come to this site and this forum in the first place.To discuss the IF,Russian history etc. etc.To learn from one another and to share thoughts and ideas.To discuss these subjects with one another while showing each other respect and civility.
Don't knock on Death's door....ring the doorbell and run. He hates that.:D

Offline Annie

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Re: Passionate Beliefs
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2004, 04:38:05 PM »
Quote
Also instead of just looking at the DNA evidence you need to look at everything at both sides to make a clear judgement.



I don't just look at DNA, it's everything. I have more than enough evidence to make 'clear judgement' (my list of reasons is posted in the why or why not thread)

and I'm not an Usher fan either.
;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

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Re: Passionate Beliefs
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2004, 05:23:04 PM »
Actually,
In order to make a genuinely "clear judgment", one must not just "look" at the evidence, one must assess the credibility and evidentiary "weight" as well. Some bits of evidence are "worth more" so to speak than others.

To my mind, the DNA evidence is far more compelling than anything else. It does not rely on "opinion" or "belief" nor someone's "subjective analysis"...It is "science" , obviously a dirty or scary word to some. But it is what it is, regardless of your beliefs. The sun still rises every morning, gravity holds you down on the floor, and the moon revolves around the earth, and both revolve around the sun...AA had mtDNA that simply can not have come from anyone related maternally in the Hesse family. period. end of story.

The "rest" of the evidence, in a court of law, for example, is far LESS probative of evidentiary value. It just isn't "worth" as much, no matter how much one emotionally might want it to be...but LOGICALLY speaking, OBJECTIVE evidence is simply more valuable than "SUBJECTIVE" and emotional evidence...
I was so sad to see Michelle write that we are 'heartless' because we "don't want Anastasia to have survived"...Nothing can be further from the truth...None of us wanted any of the IF to be killed. But, regardless of our emotions, the facts are what they are...Like Joe Friday used to say, when I was a kid...."Just the facts, M'am, just the facts."

Offline Louise

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Re: Passionate Beliefs
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2004, 05:26:13 PM »
I was interested at one time of learning the basic DNA element to understand the AA/AN/FS controversery. However some of the threads and the nastiness made me walk away from educating myself on the subject

I know enough about DNA to know that it is almost 99.9 % foolproof.

That said, I had also wondered if AA was AN and it was a small dream to wonder and think..."If she was AN, then oh wow, were people mistakend and the poor woman denied her heritage. However DNA proved she was not. I enjoy history, and I enjoy all types of history. The IF is among the many arts of this subject that I truly enjoy and want to learn more of. Obsessed, maybe on the amount of books I read and have, but I keep it all in perspective.

I don't believe that the gov't of Russian, USA and Britain, the Queen of England and the Prince, the Romanov family all conspired and falsified the DNA tests to deny AA her rightful place in history. That is goofy and silly to  think so.

So therefore, until someone sits down QUIETLY and explains to me both sides of the issue and I can wiegh the pros and cons for myself, without smart butt, snide, snotty, mean comments, I will content myself with FOTR and Massies Romanovs and do the best I can to muddle through.

My belief, and it is my belief, is that AA was not AN and I don't know enough to say she is FS.

FA, thank you for locking that thread.

Louise
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Re: Passionate Beliefs
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2004, 05:38:20 PM »
Louise, and others interested.
VERY simply put, DNA is a sequence of "amino acids", chemicals, whose names start with A, C, T, G. They line up in very long chains to form DNA. A sample stretch might look like this: AATCAGGACATCGA.
Now, everyone shares some parts of the chain that are exactly the same, that part makes us Human instead of dogs or goldfish.
BUT
certain segments, which we know, will be different from family to family (with mtDNA especially) and even from individual to individual.

As for Anna Anderson, her mtDNA segment was analyized, and the AATTAGGCATCC etc segments identified.
That string of letters, was compared to the mtDNA of Prince Philip, whose mtDNA sequence of letters we know for a FACT matches Alix of Hesse's sequence.

There were SIX places where the letters in the AA sequence that changes in the DNA strand did NOT match the Hesse family. mtDNA mutates, or changes the letters ONCE in the sequence only one time every 20 GENERATIONS. [this is conservative giving the AA folks some doubt, most scientists say only once in FORTY generations]. This means that the CLOSEST possible common maternal ancestor between AA and Prince Philip would be at least 120 GENERATIONS ago. Even once in 10 generations would mean 60 generations ago...So, they just aren't related at all. period.

Helen A, did I get an A on my bio essay?? LOL.
FA

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Re: Passionate Beliefs
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2004, 06:02:31 PM »
Dear FA, "VERY simply put"...thank you.

Sunny

Offline Laura Mabee

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Re: Passionate Beliefs
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2004, 07:36:33 PM »
 :-[
I wanted to start this thread so we could understand eachother. Unfortunatly it seems like some people are still attacking eachother.
I didn't want to make this thread another debate thread of AA vs. AN vs. FS.
I'm going to apologize to FA for casuing him more grief on this issue.

Thank you to all that have kept to the idea of this thread and not digressing.

Overall, everyone is a great person. And I truly think that

 :) :) :) :)