Author Topic: Murder or execution?  (Read 43408 times)

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Offline Belochka

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Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« Reply #75 on: December 21, 2009, 08:47:38 PM »
...In parallel, there is little difference between the murders of the IF and Rasputin's. In both cases ... evidence destroyed or tampered with, ....

Could you please explain more clearly what you mean by "evidence destroyed or tampered with" in the case of Rasputin's murder?

Yes. IMHO the first piece of evidence was Rasputin's body, which was thrown into the river, probably in the hopes that it would never be found. Also, it seems that Prince Youssupov noticed that there was blood someplace in his palace, and had a dog shot to confuse the police.

Except the police investigators were not confused as to what happened at the Yusupov Palace. Do not forget that human blood was taken from the crime scene and analyzed. It was positive for human blood. Likewise, despite what Felix Yusupov asserted, there far too much spent blood, which could not possibly have originated from one small dog.


... In both cases, for State reasons, the murderers never went to trial! Rasputin's murderers were sent to exile ...

Don't forget that Purishkevich was not banished. He continued to enjoy his lifestyle as if nothing had happened.

In the Rasputin murder case - Nikolai II granted "mercy" to two of the noble participants rather than allow the Department of Justice to proceed with a public trial.

In Yurovsky's case Lenin sanctioned the execution of the Imperial Family. Yurovsky and his execution squad performed their special duty and were paid extra rubles for that task.

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Offline wox24

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Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« Reply #76 on: December 22, 2009, 06:07:04 AM »
The entire execution squad was not drunk -- to my knowledge only Ermakov was reported as visibly intoxicated.

Yes, as far I also know, Ermakov was only drunk. Others were sober. Or maybe slightly drunk.
Moreover, Jurovsky was a very disciplined man. He had a very "serious" job that night, so, he was supposed to be sober.
However, every time I imagine that night, I think, that to stand it without a heart attack you must be drunk or under "something else".
Normal sober man hardly can stand it.

Nicola, they people were without conscience. It was nothing for them. Cannot compare your conscience and their.

Offline Mexjames

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Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2009, 02:01:25 PM »
...In parallel, there is little difference between the murders of the IF and Rasputin's. In both cases ... evidence destroyed or tampered with, ....

Could you please explain more clearly what you mean by "evidence destroyed or tampered with" in the case of Rasputin's murder?

Yes. IMHO the first piece of evidence was Rasputin's body, which was thrown into the river, probably in the hopes that it would never be found. Also, it seems that Prince Youssupov noticed that there was blood someplace in his palace, and had a dog shot to confuse the police.

Except the police investigators were not confused as to what happened at the Yusupov Palace. Do not forget that human blood was taken from the crime scene and analyzed. It was positive for human blood. Likewise, despite what Felix Yusupov asserted, there far too much spent blood, which could not possibly have originated from one small dog.


... In both cases, for State reasons, the murderers never went to trial! Rasputin's murderers were sent to exile ...

Don't forget that Purishkevich was not banished. He continued to enjoy his lifestyle as if nothing had happened.

In the Rasputin murder case - Nikolai II granted "mercy" to two of the noble participants rather than allow the Department of Justice to proceed with a public trial.

In Yurovsky's case Lenin sanctioned the execution of the Imperial Family. Yurovsky and his execution squad performed their special duty and were paid extra rubles for that task.

Margarita


I stand corrected, many thanks!

Being paid "extra rubles" for killing people. What a shameful way to start a "new", "egalitarian" society.




Offline Mexjames

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Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« Reply #78 on: December 23, 2009, 02:03:50 PM »



I agree. ;) But I do not think Russia is a menace to the rest of the world.





I didn't mean to offend. I wrote that I hope that Russia will be great again, constructively, and not destructively, as when it was during the Soviet Union era, when the Rodina was a threat to the world, as seen from my Western eyes.



Offline Belochka

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Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« Reply #79 on: December 23, 2009, 08:42:13 PM »
Interesting that in the West, Felix Yusupov was viewed as somekind of "hero" for liquidating Rasputin, where as Yurovsky's deed was largely kept secret or denied by the Soviet government for decades.

The common element in both these cases is that both these cold blooded murderers never believed that their actions were wrong.

Margarita
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 09:01:49 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« Reply #80 on: December 24, 2009, 07:48:40 AM »
Interesting that in the West, Felix Yusupov was viewed as somekind of "hero" for liquidating Rasputin, where as Yurovsky's deed was largely kept secret or denied by the Soviet government for decades.

The common element in both these cases is that both these cold blooded murderers never believed that their actions were wrong.

Margarita


Interesting also that the popularized stories of these murders both include victims that "refused" to die.
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Offline wox24

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Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2010, 04:46:45 PM »
I think theere are very contrarieties in this case. Great Britain, USA and France have not clear conscience. Maurice Paleogue wrote Februar revolution started Great Britain. Lord Miller and George Buchanan was in contact with Kerenskiy, Guchkov, Milyukov...Why Kerenskiy sent Tsars family to Siberia and not to Krym. Why generals renegaded Nicholas? Why did they blocked his orders (for example general Gurko)? Why general Alexeev enticed away Nicholas to Mogilev?  Still Kerenskiy  said Tsar must die. Why bolsheviks did not shot only Tsar but all family? Why such way, why the did not shot as, for example, Nicholas Mikhailovich or Pavel Alexandrovich? Why Great Britain and France began to discuss with Germany behind Russia back during the war? Etc, etc.
Simply, who wanted fall of Russian empire?

Offline TimM

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Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« Reply #82 on: April 10, 2010, 07:45:36 PM »
In my opinion, it was cold blooded murder, nothing more, nothing less.  Nicholas was out of power, and had been for over year.  He wasn't a threat to Lenin or any of his cronies.  Certinaly OTMAA did nothing to deserve such a horrible fate.  They were given no trial, no chance to speak in their own defense.  Yurovsky just came in, declared some speech, and then he and the rest of his hired thugs started blasting away.  It took twenty minutes for them to kill them all (some of the aformentioned thugs had been hitting the vodka and they were not professional marksmen).  It certainly wasn't quick and painless for the IF.

Also, some more of Yurovsky's thugs, who were waiting in the woods, were under the assumption that the executions would take place out there.  They too had been passing bottles of vodka around and were hoping to "have some fun" with the Grand Duchesses, before killing them (they didn't know they were already dead).  Read into that what you will.

Some people said that Nicholas II was an autocrat.  Well, even if he was, he and his family didn't deserve this.  Even top ranking Nazis got their day in court.
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Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« Reply #83 on: July 19, 2010, 10:49:37 AM »
I couldn't agree more, TimM.

The bolshevicks just wanted to show the world that they were more powerful thn the IF, and that's why they kept them in exile for so long. The murder was the final act. An coward act, murder father and mother in front of their children, sisters and brother in front of each other, and four servants who did absolutely nothing. That's what I think.

An execution is made fast and isolated. What they did to the Romanovs was cruel. And they did not deservethis.

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=11870.0

"The presidium of the Supreme Court has ruled to recognize Nikolay Alexandrovich Romanov [Nicholas II], Alexandra Fyodorovna Romanova, Olga Nikolayevna Romanova, Tatyana Nikolayevna Romanova, Maria Nikolayevna Romanova, Anastasia Nikolayevna Romanova, and Alexey Nikolayevich Romanov as groundlessly repressed and rehabilitate them," a Supreme Court judge said in pronouncing the ruling.

Offline RHB

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Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« Reply #84 on: July 27, 2010, 04:17:21 PM »
"The presidium of the Supreme Court has ruled to recognize Nikolay Alexandrovich Romanov [Nicholas II], Alexandra Fyodorovna Romanova, Olga Nikolayevna Romanova, Tatyana Nikolayevna Romanova, Maria Nikolayevna Romanova, Anastasia Nikolayevna Romanova, and Alexey Nikolayevich Romanov as groundlessly repressed and rehabilitate them," a Supreme Court judge said in pronouncing the ruling.

Which is a good thing if you ask me! I still call it murder... especially on OTMAA/Servants! Nicholas should have stood trial... I like Alexandra and all but she didn't help matters much!
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Re: Murder or execution? Thread 2
« Reply #85 on: July 27, 2010, 04:54:27 PM »
Yeas, RomanovHistoryBuff, I agree, it was a murder. They were rehabilitated, their death was considered ilegal.

Offline Ortipo

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Wikipedia Edit - "Extrajudicial Killing"
« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2012, 04:26:22 PM »
тяв-тяв,

тяв-тяв тяв-тяв тяв-тяв тяв-тяв (i didn't do it)

22 June 2012
Anastasia was a younger sister of Grand Duchess Olga, Grand Duchess Tatiana, and Grand Duchess Maria, and was an elder sister of Alexei Nikolaevich, Tsarevich of Russia. She was murdered with her family on July 17, 1918, by forces of the Bolshevik secret police, Cheka.

23 June 2012
Anastasia was a younger sister of Grand Duchess Olga, Grand Duchess Tatiana, and Grand Duchess Maria, and was an elder sister of Alexei Nikolaevich, Tsarevich of Russia. She died in an extrajudicial killing by forces of the Bolshevik secret police, Cheka, with her family on July 17, 1918.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchess_Anastasia_Nikolaevna_of_Russia





тяв-тяв

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Wikipedia Edit - "Extrajudicial Killing"
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2012, 04:30:14 PM »
And the point of this post is....?
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Offline Ortipo

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Re: Wikipedia Edit - "Extrajudicial Killing"
« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2012, 04:52:58 PM »
The point of the post is "murder" vs. "extrajudicial killing"

I am thinking along the lines that had the legitimate government at the time executed a death sentence then the correct term would be "extrajudicial killing".  I believe the correct term for what occurred is "murder".  If the more scholarly people than I on this forum agree with my point then the article needs to be edited and explanation for the edit be posted on the wiki talk page.
тяв-тяв

Offline edubs31

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Re: Wikipedia Edit - "Extrajudicial Killing"
« Reply #89 on: July 16, 2012, 05:15:33 PM »
There is a section on here where this has been discussed. I'll look for it unless someone hopefully beats me to it. It's my opinion that the family was MURDERED. To suggest otherwise by concealing your agenda through clever wording I find disingenuous. Not unlike those who defend the idea of killing them...all of them...in the name of political expediency. Claiming it was the only reasonable option.
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