Author Topic: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence  (Read 96528 times)

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Offline Kransnoeselo

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #360 on: November 09, 2007, 10:21:46 PM »
I can agree that most of those listed above suffered negatively from AA's claims. The reputations of GD Hesse, Pierre Gilliard and Sophie Bux. clearly still suffer from attacks by AA's supporters.
 
But Felix Yussuppov? I think that's a stretch.  He and his wife suffered more from the movie about Rasputin (And its portrayal of Felix), than they did with regards to AA.

Lord Mountbatten had his own personal issues which caused him grief,I dont think the AA matter was little more than a headache for him. 

 

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #361 on: November 10, 2007, 09:23:47 AM »
I would say that the AA case was way worse than simply an identity theft, although there were a lot of those aspects in there of course. It was much more than just great annoyance and headache resulting from an identity theft. To those who actually cared about and were close to the girl herself (Anastasia) and knew that most likely she died a horrible death, it must have been a lot more painful than a simple identity theft, with an impostor taking on her identity, which had to cause, at least on some level, an emotional roller coaster (is it her? could she be alive? almost like reliving her death again). Contrary to what some have argued on other threads: that the relatives wouldn't have really felt much of anything because they were royalty - which is completely absurd - they were humans, and human psychological experience is similar across the board - royal or not - unless these humans are sociopaths.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #362 on: November 10, 2007, 09:45:50 AM »
The fact that OA may have initially accepted that AA was in fact her niece (which I really tend to question, and question strongly) would make me think that it would be even more upsetting for her when she finally realized that she wasn't.

But in any case, I can imagine that the emotional rollercoaster of the situation, at least at the time it was happening, must have been pretty bad for any normal human being. Going in with the hope that the woman at the mental hospital may be her niece (to whom OA was reportedly close - unless you want to dispute that too - perhaps all the authors imbellished that one too...), hoping against hope that Anastasia may have survived what OA knew must have been a blood bath in which the rest of the family perished - it certainly couldn't have been a picnic. Forget everyone else in this tale, but one must admit, there had to be at least some emotional anguish involved for OA, unless someone wants to argue that she was a sociopath?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 10:01:15 AM by Helen_A »

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #363 on: November 10, 2007, 09:59:13 AM »
My heart too, but every unpleasant event (like the renewal of the Tchaik History) disturb my heart and makes it beat too fast. At night this is bothersome because I feel it more.

Sounds like OA was having anxiety attacks over this case... perhaps even panic attacks. Perhaps anxiety seems like nothing to some people, but it doesn't seem like "nothing" to me, in fact, it's a very serious "something". Just because OA lived to be 78 (not so unusually old) and seemed like a strong woman and not a "delicate flower", it doesn't mean she didn't suffer emotionally (and not necessarily just from the AA case). People can live through a lot, and live for a long time, it doesn't mean they have not been emotionally hurt, and it doesn't mean it will always be very obvious, especially to those who are not especially sensitive to human emotions in general.

Offline dmitri

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #364 on: November 10, 2007, 10:05:50 AM »
Very well said indeed Helen. It is about time the nonsense stopped and certain people realised the loss of many close relatives in a brutal fashion can only ever be traumatic. I doubt anybody would ever truly gets over that one. Then to have a fraud deliberately claiming to be somebody she clearly wasn't can only make the pain of the loss even worse. It's very simple to work out.

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #365 on: November 10, 2007, 10:16:04 AM »
I finally was able to dig up the original scans of the original letter in French which we were sent three years ago.  As I had suspected and recalled there were a few minor errors in the original translation to English, as one of these errors is being "seized on" by Simon, allow me to present the revised, and I think more accurate version, the differences are in bold:

February, 15th 1928

Dear Ms bxxx

Thank you for your kind letter.

Yes you understand just as we do the absurdity of this story! More and more, I see that this story is all about blackmail and money  One might say I’m mistaken.

But how can you believe that his wife, Mme Gilliard, who knew her since she was 6 weeks (and Mr Gilliard, who was as well with the beloved family until the moment they were separated in June 1918) could be mistaken?

It’s ridiculous as well to say that the grand mother and I don’t want to have her close to us.

What filth to talk like that.

I say frankly that my cousin André must have some very ignoble motives to side against us…

Uncle from Hesse as well, and is completely satisfied -with the fact that the person is not our niece. He has proofs, as you naturally have seen or read in “L’Illustration” where the photos of the ears were, now it’s a known fact that the ears never change.

Now to answer your question: Mother gets along well for her age. My heart too- but every unpleasant thing (like the resurgance of the Tchaik story) upsets my heart and makes it beat faster and stronger At night this bothers me because I feel it then.

I’ve had a little flu with fever, two days in bed and sore throat.

Currently I’m working again relentlessly on my watercolors, painting ones about Crimea.

I have some sketches with me here and I’m working on them, arranging, combining, and am interested in each small detail,  the day is too short…

I  start at 8:30am, but at 4pm I can’t work anymore, as I have many other things to do

The boys are charming! They prefer German lessons to French lessons!

Together we saw a very interesting movie: “The man Without a Country” (American), very patriotic and nice. They were overjoyed!

We send you our best wishes.

Greetings from Mother, Xenia, Emilia Jr, Cecilia and Gustav.

I kiss you heartily, dear Ms bxxx

Olga

Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #366 on: November 10, 2007, 10:29:48 AM »
The fact that OA may have initially accepted that AA was in fact her niece (which I really tend to question, and question strongly) would make me think that it would be even more upsetting for her when she finally realized that she wasn't.

I don't think Olga ever accepted AA as her niece, but I do think she and Gilliard gave it a chance to make sure. When they ultimately decided she wasn't AN, this has been misconstrued by AA supporters who want to villainize them as 'rejecting' 'changing their minds' and 'turning their backs' (for money, of course ::) ) I never understood why (except that it suits AA's claim and discredits their negative testimony) AA supporters have to look at it that way and not just that they looked, they wondered, they realized it wasn't her, end of story. Like I said in the story of the lady who took the wrong dog home, sometimes it takes longer to be sure, especially if the 'lost' in question is damaged, therefore making their appearance so changed (if it was them) it's harder to make an immediate ID.


In this tragic story, a family sat by the bedside of a girl they thought was their badly injured daughter for weeks, only to find out it was actually her friend Whitney who was in the same crash with her, and their Laura was dead. The mixup occured when the two girls' purses were transposed during the crash, and the grievous injuries to the faces of the two blondes made them harder to identify. Imagine the devastation when they realized the truth, and the shocking gladness of the other family finding their girl was alive. And yes, the wrong girl was given a funeral and buried with the other girl's name. This was not a long time ago,only last year.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-05-31-indiana-mistaken-identity_x.htm

It is entirely possible that a person can make an initial mistake due to the condition of a person, and find out later they were wrong. There is nothing sinister behind it. It's another aspect of the 'hurting' to find your hopes dashed and realize that your relative isn't alive after all. That was another pain for Olga, who said she had left Denmark with hope in her heart, but returned with it estinguised.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 10:53:03 AM by Annie »

Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #367 on: November 10, 2007, 10:34:13 AM »
Thanks, FA. That does make Olga's feelings very clear.

My heart too, but every unpleasant event (like the renewal of the Tchaik History) disturb my heart and makes it beat too fast. At night this is bothersome because I feel it more.

Sounds like OA was having anxiety attacks over this case... perhaps even panic attacks. Perhaps anxiety seems like nothing to some people, but it doesn't seem like "nothing" to me, in fact, it's a very serious "something". Just because OA lived to be 78 (not so unusually old) and seemed like a strong woman and not a "delicate flower", it doesn't mean she didn't suffer emotionally (and not necessarily just from the AA case). People can live through a lot, and live for a long time, it doesn't mean they have not been emotionally hurt, and it doesn't mean it will always be very obvious, especially to those who are not especially sensitive to human emotions in general.

True, just because she never died of the stress of the case doesn't mean she wasn't hurt by it. People sue for such mental anguish that affects their physical health that way.  People also too often disregard that Olga had to endure all this in addition to the grief of losing so many close family members in horrific ways. It was bad enough to live with that, but thanks to AA, there was never any peace.

It's just awful how Olga is continually attacked, questioned and her words picked apart and devalued. The only reason behind it I can see is that her denouncement of AA as AN was so damaging to the case, some people wanted to find ways to discredit her even when there is no valid reasoning behind it. The worst part is saying or insinuating she denied her for money, Olga had no money, which is why she had to be a farmer and a 'strong woman' so that's all contradictory to the image of her as the uppity royal turning her back on her 'niece'! It's strange that whatever someone says in support of AA, no matter how vague and unverified, stands as 'fact' while the words of those who opposed her (Olga, Gilliard, Prince Christopher, etc.) are continually criticized.



« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 10:47:32 AM by Annie »

Offline dmitri

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #368 on: November 10, 2007, 10:35:24 AM »
Once again thanks Rob FA. A very good knowledge of a language does much to clarify information. It just goes to show more primary source information that backs everything up and once again demolishes the pathetic attempts made by the fraud AA/FS and her deluded supporters. It's about time the lies stopped and the rubbish about AA/FS was put into the trash bin of history where it well and truly belongs.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #369 on: November 10, 2007, 12:40:50 PM »
Helen,

Your remarks are speculative, as are mine. So in the end, who is right? I tend to read yours with more interest than Annie's and Dmitri's because I don't actually think that you are working through some personal issue in this matter, but I still doubt that Olga was having "anxiety" attacks based upon my understanding and reading about her life. I see no evidence for "anguish" at all, especially considering the kind letters that Olga sent Anderson during the period after she met her. I also do think that she struggled with the decision not to recognize her (as did Madame Gilliard) before coming down on the side that Anderson was not her niece. It does not mean that her eventual decision that Anderson was not her niece was wrong, it means that she gave the matter consideration --- which I think speaks highly of her. In the below letter Olga lumps the "Tchaikovski case" among "unpleasant things" that give her palpitations. I'd be interested in knowing what the other unpleasant things were as a basis for comparison. In any event, the matter does not occupy even the bulk of her attention in the letter, which I think is indicative of how important she found it. I did not say that she didn't "suffer emotionally"; I said that given what the woman went through during the course of her life, the Anderson case was probably not high on her list of causes of emotional distress. And while 78 may not be a great age in 2007, it was for a woman born in the 19th century. And though I am not sure if you think I fall into the category of those insensitive to emotions, I can assure you that I am not.

Simon

Dmitri,

Cha-ching. I will be happy to give attention to anything serious you ever post, and do not worry that such a position will heavily mortgage my future time. The "trash bin of history"? "the fraud AA/FS and her deluded supporters"? It's like being stoned to death by someone throwing Marie Corelli novels.
Lighten up, little dude.

Annie,

I am sure that Olga appreciates you riding to her defense, but like Don Quixote, I think you are tilting at windmills. If you knew anything about the Anderson case at all --- which I am sorry, you manifestly do not --- you would know that Olga (and the rest of the family) were able to completely ignore it. Anderson's supporters have never been legion. No one has said, other than you, that she was an "uppity royal". No one "continually criticizes" her, other than some people on this board. And do you know why? Because most people do not care about this issue (AA=FS=ANR) at all.

 I understand that you and Chat Noir have been going at it hammer and tongs, but you are not a mob. You are two people who care a great deal about this case, and that's about the size of it. Everyone involved --- the real girl, Anderson, Jack Manahan, Olga, Ksenia etc. --- has been pushing up the daisies for quite some time. If people still believe that Anderson was Anastasia, well, there you  go. If I might ask a personal question? Do you believe in God? If you do, can you prove there is a God to a non-believer's satisfaction? If you do not, can you demonstrate that there is not to the satisfaction of a believer? That's about the equivalent.

Again, forgive me for being blunt, but the people I know who dislike you, Annie,  do so on the basis of your personality on the various boards (as I assume do the people who dislike me), not because of the positions you hold. It's remarkable how referring to people as "vicious" and "deluded" and "nasty" causes them to harbor ill-will.

Simon












« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 12:42:50 PM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #370 on: November 10, 2007, 01:48:56 PM »
I see no evidence for "anguish" at all,

This is you drawing your own conclusions based on your own speculation.

Quote
I'd be interested in knowing what the other unpleasant things were as a basis for comparison.

Like the constant pain and sadness of knowing her brothers and nieces and nephew were brutally murdered?

Quote
In any event, the matter does not occupy even the bulk of her attention in the letter,

It was a big mention, and you don't know what else she was feeling that wasn't written.

Quote
the Anderson case was probably not high on her list of causes of emotional distress. And while 78 may not be a great age in 2007, it was for a woman born in the 19th century.

You don't know that it wasn't, and that she wouldn't have lived longer had she not be burdened. The bottom line fact is, you cannot prove Olga was not upset by the case for many years. Common sense even tells us she would be. What is your purpose of saying she wasn't?

Quote
Annie,
 If you knew anything about the Anderson case at all --- which I am sorry, you manifestly do not --- you would know that Olga (and the rest of the family) were able to completely ignore it.

You are most incorrect about my amount of knowledge on the case. Just because I don't quote AA supporters as much as others doesn't mean I'm not fully aware of what they said. You do NOT know Olga was able to ignore the case, contrary evidence shows that she didn't, and you cannot prove it.

Quote
Because most people do not care about this issue (AA=FS=ANR) at all.

Of course, and this is why I refer only to those who do and not the general masses who have not commented.

Quote
I understand that you and Chat Noir have been going at it hammer and tongs, but you are not a mob. You are two people who care a great deal about this case, and that's about the size of it. Everyone involved --- the real girl, Anderson, Jack Manahan, Olga, Ksenia etc. --- has been pushing up the daisies for quite some time. If people still believe that Anderson was Anastasia, well, there you  go.

Then why do YOU care? In what category would you place yourself?

How do you know about Chat and I, has he been carrying tales to the 'other' forum, has he discussed the PM's he used to send me here, or have you been reading my now closed AA forum? Either way, this has nothing to do with this forum or this discussion and is inappropriate here.

Quote
Again, forgive me for being blunt, but the people I know who dislike you, Annie,  do so on the basis of your personality on the various boards (as I assume do the people who dislike me), not because of the positions you hold.

It's remarkable how referring to people as "vicious" and "deluded" and "nasty" causes them to harbor ill-will.

I hope you realize that such things are not said out of the blue for no reason, the person has to prove this over and over again, and have called me quite a few things as well.  If you've been reading the AA forum then I hope you also saw what he said about me and other members. But again, this personal and  other forum business  is completely wrong and out of line and inappropriate to drag onto this forum and I will not be baited any longer.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 02:11:12 PM by Annie »

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #371 on: November 10, 2007, 02:10:09 PM »
Dear Annie,

As I have said before, I am interested in Anna Anderson because I met her. I did not say that I did not care about the case. My point was that the number of people who do is restricted, so talking about the legions of attacks on Olga is misrepresenting the facts. There just aren't that many people on the ground who give a damn. Nor were there in Olga's lifetime. Large stretches of Anderson's life were spent in relative obscurity; Marcelle Maurette was stunned to find out she was still alive at the time Anastasia was written.

I did visit your website, and I looked at your forum before you took it down. I did not post attacks. I did not post at all. Did you not wish people to visit your website?

You spend, and have spent, a great deal of time railing against the so-called "other forum", and you joined it yourself under an assumed name, so kindly refrain from telling people what is "appropriate" and "inappropriate" to discuss.

I do not treat you the way that I do because of "them", I treat you the way I do because it irritates me that you make my side in the AA case (i.e. that she was Franziska)  look stupid through your relentless inability to argue based upon logic or reason.  Pure and simple. I am also sitting on a number of semi-hysterical private messages from you in which you personally attacked me, and you know it. Did you think that I wouldn't resent these?

There is no more "connection" between me and "them" than there is between me and "Rob" and this board --- actually, less, because while I have never met anyone from the "other board" (really, you should have melodramatic music playing every time you write that), I have met two people from the Alexander Palace Forum. I have exchanged e-mails with Peter Kurth, Penny Wilson and Greg King. I have also exchanged e-mails with Rob Moshein and Helen Azar. You may find this difficult to believe, but it is possible to have an interest in the Romanovs and not get drawn into the internecine feuds on these boards.

Simon

« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 02:12:06 PM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #372 on: November 10, 2007, 02:21:53 PM »
Quote
and you joined it yourself under an assumed name, so kindly refrain from telling people what is "appropriate" and "inappropriate" to discuss.

No, I did not. And yes, it is inappropriate to bring up issues, especially negative ones, from other forums to cause trouble here.


Even Bear would say, the topic of this thread is "AA: A Discussion of Evidence"
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 02:24:53 PM by Annie »

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #373 on: November 10, 2007, 02:27:55 PM »
You say you did not. And I say you did.

However . . . how about this? You agree to discuss Anna Anderson without making reference to anything but actual evidence. No scenic side trips to discuss how awful Olga felt on this thread --- there is a thread for that, and I am not posting on it --- and no ranting about the supporters' motives. In return I will stop ragging on you. Deal?

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Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #374 on: November 10, 2007, 02:31:41 PM »


However . . . how about this? You agree to discuss Anna Anderson without making reference to anything but actual evidence. No scenic side trips to discuss how awful Olga felt on this thread --- there is a thread for that, and I am not posting on it --- and no ranting about the supporters' motives. In return I will stop ragging on you. Deal?



The evidence being discussed is the letter written by Olga.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 02:34:02 PM by Annie »