Author Topic: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave  (Read 77977 times)

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Offline Belochka

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The skull was submitted to Sheffield and Manchester Universities in England for forensic analysis through examination photographs and facial reconstruction. Both universities quickly became aware that there was no comparison to Anastasia, but independently decided to try a comparison to Maria. Their conclusions were that Granny Alina closely resembled Maria.


The word "resembles" when it comes to interpretation must be viewed with caution. It is scientifically meaningless.

The entire exercise conducted Mr Duval is a publicity seeking exercise to sell a book and other media items. It is absurd to contemplate that Marie "survived" the brutal massacre while others died in the same confined space. To want to believe any survivor ideas is a shameful nonsense and demonstrates a complete lack of respect to the present Romanov Family.

 



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Offline Martyn

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One can only assume that there was no DNA testing of the sons because that would have provided conclusive evidence as to the veracity of this assertion that Alina was a missing Grand Duchess (the programme concluded by virtually saying outright that she must have been Maria).
This programme was a piece of entertainment at best; I have to agree with Belochka in that the perpetuation of the survivor theories is futile.
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Offline Annie

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I don't really think anyone got away either, but this is interesting and should not be ruled out without proof like we have on AA.

Offline Alice

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I don't really think anyone got away either, but this is interesting and should not be ruled out without proof like we have on AA.


Agree with Annie.

Offline Martyn

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I don't really think anyone got away either, but this is interesting and should not be ruled out without proof like we have on AA.


Yes, but do you really think that this particular story has potential to provide those answers?  I'm afraid that I don't.
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Offline Belochka

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Why does one hear the words "we must keep an open mind" when it comes to issues involving claimants?

Perhaps someone can cogently explain why must we?

Surely it is time surely to stop all this speculative nonsense and recognize that all the Imperial Family were massacred in Ekaterinburg ... no escapes ... no survivors ... no familial claimants.

   


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Offline Annie

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Why does one hear the words "we must keep an open mind" when it comes to issues involving claimants?

    


This has always bugged me in the AA threads. It also bugs me on other forums when people use it in other ways. There is a difference between 'open mind' and outrageous theories and pure fantasy. In the case of AA, there is no more room for 'open mind', we know for sure! I just want to rule it out so people will stop wondering and speculating. If we don't do the test there will always be questions and theories. Even if there's only a .0001% chance it could be her, there's nothing wrong with finding out and ruling out just for the record. Also when people refuse tests, it only makes conspiracy theorists have a reason to speculate more, 'why don't you want the test if you're so sure', etc.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Belochka

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I don't think I could answer it any better than Dandywell did in his December 23rd post on What Do You Think Happened to the Imperial Family:


"My brain tells me they all died that night, my gut that it doesn't make sense, and my heart that I should keep searching, even if what my brain knows turns out to be true. That's why I'm on these boards."


The real truth is much harder to come to terms with. In these matters there is no room for the heart ... it will only hurt you even more the longer one denies that truth.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Belochka

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Even if there's only a .0001% chance it could be her, there's nothing wrong with finding out and ruling out just for the record.  


No scientific analysis can provide absolute 100% certainty. That 99.9999% probability is the best which any professional scientist can offer.

I agree Annie,

.. it is that insignificant 0.0001% upon which claimants cling to without any real understanding of scientific procedure.

That minimal % value  can be then be used to maximize a nice 100% income when selling their work of fiction.


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Offline Annie

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I also know that for some, even 100% proof is still not enough (intestines switched, etc.)  :-/ and never will be. I just don't see any harm in testing to see what happens because if you don't people will always say 'why.' Let's just find out. And I know what you mean about people and their 'works of fiction' ;)

Offline Martyn

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The real truth is much harder to come to terms with. In these matters there is no room for the heart ... it will only hurt you even more the longer one denies that truth.


This the most sensible comment that I have read in this thread.  It is so eminently true.
The Granny Alina story has too many insoluble issues.  No DNA, no way to prove this theory.
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Offline Brigichan

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Hello everyone, this is my first posting here, althogh I've been reading your comments for a while now. Nice to be here. :)

I have seen this documentary (National Geographic Channel - Riddles of the Death: Search for the Lost Princess - or at least I thinks that was the correct title...) last night. A friend of mine, who knows I'm really interested in what happent to the IF, told me enthusiasticly about it, so I got to watch it. But, the more it had been stated that Granny Alina was most likely the GD Maria, the more things came to my mind that there is less truth in the whole story at all.

1. First, I quite liked the reconstruction of the night when the IF was executed. Although, the actors/atcresses were far too young in their roles. The Grand Duchesses looked like mere teenagers, but, in contrary, Alexei looked much mature than he had been. The Tsar and Alexandra were younger too. but it does not really matter, since they portrayed the horror quite well. (how sad to say this... it had to be a truly horrorful night...) So this part of the 1 hour documentary was quite positive.

But, right to this comes my first doubt. I must say, I'm not familiar with ALL parts of the Yurovsky-report, even though I've read your posts carefully (wich helped me to understand many things, so thank you for it, really). But this film stated things I've never read before.
According to the documentary, Yurovsky seemed to travel with the truck that contained the bodies of the IF , with what seemed like 2 other gurads. It was said that the truck had brocken down for some reason (over-heated, because of the bad road conditions/heavy load in the back), so they had to stop at some railway-crossing. Yurovsky had sent away one of the guards with the "fat" railway watchman (to get help, to repair the truck) - watchwoman actually, because it was a woman. He took the remaining guard with himself and went to the forest to look for the troops they should be meeting later.

Could THIS be possible? Leaving the truck alone, whitout someone guarding it, risking the discovery of the executions? How on earth? I really have my doubts...

According to the footage, it was the time when some unknown helpers arrived and searched the truck, finding one GD and Alexei alive. So they rescued them, and vanished. Yurovsky, obviously, didn't notice the vanishing of the two bodies as they returned and continued their way to the destinied resting place of the IF.

OK, it obviously was dark, it was night, so it could be possible that Yurovsky and his people haven't seen the two bodies missing. But haven't the counted them before leaving them at the forest? Could a soldier miss a kind of duty like this? I'm sure those were nervous times, but...  ???

The documentary states that this railway-stopping WAS featured in Yurovsky's report, and that it matched the stories of Granny Alina. She told it to her sons and grandsons in the sixties, but the Yurovsky-report was public only in the ninties, so the narrator said it, too, is misterios, how they could match so good. *sarcasm*

So, back on the film. It said that the resqued princess was taken to Poland where she'd spent a few years to recover and get strong again. Then she headed for Berlin, again, with the help of these misterious resquers. In Germany she hoped to get support from a relative, his (because it was said he was some duke or so) names or titles are misterious, too. So it's very dizzy, all the way. She actually travelled in a wooden box on a ship...  ::) So, again, I really don't know what to think. One thing is bothering me: it was never said HOW she got to South Africa - or why there.

Another thing: if there was a resque like this, why were the silblings seperated? because Alexei in nowhere mentioned. The narrator stated that it's not the part of the film clearing what happened to the prince, but if they were alive together, why doesn't mention him Alina ever?
[although, we all know, that the young princes suffered from hemophilia, wich makes him heavier to survive with bleeding wounds...]

(continues in next post)
Bye,
Brigichan

Offline Brigichan

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As many of you mentioned before, at South Africa shie's said to have married, having two sons. In the film there was a photo of her as a young woman and mother: sitting on a chair, having to little boys around her, her husband standing beside. I've found it interesting that her husband was 37 years older than her. Quite bizarre, I think...

Anyway. The 2 grandsons told that she always feared to be found by soldiers, by the KGB, and she was scared when police was nearby. (she's said to behave rather strange at times like this: hiding in her room, being qiuet, etc.) So this part could fit: anyone could have fears after what happenned to the IF.

Not much is mentioned about her life in South Africa whatsoever. What she did, how she got there, having friends or supporters... Wich is a pity, I think: it would have made the story more relyable.

The most of the documentary deals with the analysis of her remains and photos. As someone pointed out: there were 3 seperate researches at the same time: at Oxford, at Sheffield, and in Melbourne.
The narrator cleared some things up, wich I 'he found useful. I, too, read it on the internet, that Granny Alina's story was considered a fake because a DNA-analysis never was taken, or that the results were kept in secret. The film showed us, why this occured. In 1997 (if my mind serves me right) her remains were transported to Australia for analisys, but the bones were damaged during the way, and the researchers were afraid they'd not find anything useful - so, the things stopped for a while, if I remember correctly. But then they were carried on, later.

The photo-analysis was the most negative point in the film ever. I mean, drawing the outlines of the heads and compare them... It does not look very scientific to me. I'm not an expert, but there are surely more effective and up-to-date methods, involving computer-generated shemes wich would look more trustworthy. So, the "fact" that the eyes, the nose and the moths outlines matched by Granny Alina and Maria, really hasn't convinced me a bit. (but that's just me)

The mtDNA-analysis was as strange. Getting different results from the skull and from the leg is quite odd to me. They were compared with the ones a royal prince provided (I'm really sorry I can't remember his name - but his DNA was compared with Anna Anderson's too - maybe this helps). No match. But the documentary remained optimistic: they claimed, it can happen; the climatic conditions, the earth the bones were burried, everything can affect the changes in the result. (and again, someone mentioned this in this thread before) I think they called it "contamination", but it says nothing to me, I'm not an expert in things like that...

This would have been enough for me, not to believe the story, but then they came up with some conspiracy-like theory. Like: maybe, the husband, Frank had been a family guard, a bodyguard, loyal to the Romanovs, who helped Maria to escape. They took this new identity of a married couple to decieve the possible investigations, wich could explain the 37 years between them. And maybe the 2 little boys on the photo weren't even their children, they might only be part of this kind of role play.

I don't know, really. It's sad that the DNA of one of the grandsons weren't analysed, because it could have proven everything (or nothing). Interesting, though, watch it yourselves and decide...
Bye,
Brigichan

Offline AGRBear

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Brigichan: Thank you very much for the sketch of the program.

I found many interesting points.

Although some of you continue to deny the possibility that one of Nicholas II's daughters and Alexei, who's bodies were not found in Pig's Meadow, may have survived,  there are some of us who think it possible that one or both did survive.  

It is understandable that some of you continue to insert your opinions about the impossibility of any survivors on these threads.  I assume this is because you don't want the other readers to think there isn't objection to such theories.

It is just as understandable that some of us continue to search for answers as to what happen to the two Romanov children.

It was the Russians scientists who open the door to the fact that the missing person might not be Anastasia but Maria.

So,  some of us, on this thread and others, are searching for clues which may lead us to some answers to many unanswered questions.

Until the bodies are found, and, people like this Alina/Alena  are discovered, then, they and their family have all the rights to search for the truth.

It doesn't matter if one or all of us think the quests of the claimants families are a waste of time and effort.  

Until Alina's /Alena's case is set aside by each of us individualy then we should be able to discuss this case as openly and freely as needed.  

There should be no need to cause any "flaming".   Let's prove we can discuss this as adults who have respect for each other's opinion.


I'll start with the last few lines:

" Frank had been a family guard, a bodyguard, loyal to the Romanovs, who helped Maria to escape. They took this new identity of a married couple to decieve the possible investigations, wich could explain the 37 years between them. And maybe the 2 little boys on the photo weren't even their children, they might only be part of this kind of role play."

Penny's list of guards who were brothers...  told us that there was some guards who had known the Romanovs....  Hope she didn't erase the list."

I'll go find the names.

AGRBear

PS  Penny has withdrawn everything it seems.  I do wish I had copied that particular quote since it had a list of brothers and cousins who were guards at the Impatiev House.  These particular names pounced out at me and I'll give my quote:

Quote
Thanks Penny.

Do you know what happen to the following cousins:

Alexander and Konstantin Ukraintsev (These cousins knew the Romanovs from the Crimea, where they had played with Michael Alexandrovich and Olga Alexandrovna.)
AGRBear


These two men did know the Romanovs.

If these men, the Ukrainstevs,  were not invovled,  perhaps this "Frank" was.   And why not.  If it's possible for two, why not another like this Frank?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Denise

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Although some of you continue to deny the possibility that one of Nicholas II's daughters and Alexei, who's bodies were not found in Pig's Meadow, may have survived,  there are some of us who think it possible that one or both did survive.  

It is understandable that some of you continue to insert your opinions about the impossibility of any survivors on these threads.  I assume this is because you don't want the other readers to think there isn't objection to such theories.

It is just as understandable that some of us continue to search for answers as to what happen to the two Romanov children.

It was the Russians scientists who open the door to the fact that the missing person might not be Anastasia but Maria.

So,  some of us, on this thread and others, are searching for clues which may lead us to some answers to many unanswered questions.

Until the bodies are found, and, people like this Alina/Alena  are discovered, then, they and their family have all the rights to search for the truth.

It doesn't matter if one or all of us think the quests of the claimants families are a waste of time and effort.  

Until Alina's /Alena's case is set aside by each of us individualy then we should be able to discuss this case as openly and freely as needed.  

There should be no need to cause any "flaming".   Let's prove we can discuss this as adults who have respect for each other's opinion.

AGRBear


Very well stated Bear!!  I totally agree... :)