Was Communism Good For Russia? - Your Opinion Part 1

Dashkova,

I never said that democracy was freedom, and that anything less than that is totalitarian.

I'm quite aware of the fact that many Soviets lived a sort of ordinary life under Soviet rule, but then "normal" always means being unpolitical, not caring about what is going on around you, what is happening to those people who want to speak freely, and so on.

I'm simply objecting to the JUSTIFYING a criminal system on the grounds that many people living under it didn't care about this.

By the way, we're having a similar debate in Germany about the East German system, which was also totalitarian. OF COURSE many East Germans were quite happy in their state, but those also often found it quite comfortable to shut their eyes to what was happening everywhere around them. And this doesn't mean everything was BAD under communist rule. I never said that either.

But in the GDR even parents spied on their children, children on their parents, wives on their husbands, and the victims would only know this AFTER the archives of the former State Security were opened to them. The GDR had turned masses of its people into informers. Those informers were sometimes convinced communists, but more often they were simply forced by the state. If you wouldn't comply with the rules, you were denied your place a university, for instance, and your future career was ruined.

Rskkiya,

I never said Tsarist Russia was a democracy. It was an authoritarian system but not a totalitarian one.
And as to Putin's Russia, it is NOT a democracy AT ALL  .
It is moving towards an authoritarin state that is acclaimed every four years by the electorate. Or you might call it an authoritarian oligarchy.

 I found the following, which I find of great interest,  in David Remnick's book LENIN'S TOMB, THE LAST DAYS OF THE SOVIET EMPIRE p. 530:

"A few weeks later, the Constituional Court of Russia ruled that Communists were free to meet on a local level but the Communist Party, as a national enity, was illegal.  The Party's assets and properties remained uner the conrol of the elected government of the Russian Federation.  The era that had begun in 1917 with the Bolshevik coup and now ended -- in a court of law."  

I don't find a date when this occured.  It may have been at the end of Gorbachev's time.... [Resigned Christmas night in 1991].

Isn't it interesting that, finally,  the Russian people realize communism should no longer be their form of governmennt, and, have made it illegal to be a "national enity".

AGRBear

Dashkova wrote: >>I'm afraid she's fairly close to the mark on that one!<<

Evidently,  you have talked to her on the phone.  She made this statement about fat men and hot dogs and you didn't seem to find reason to disagree and seem to think it's funny.  Ryskkiya thought it was funny, too.

My error was to think you escorted her during her visit to the US.  My mistake.

So,  that's clear,  can we move forward to something that doesn't have to do with "fat" but has something to do with the subject: >>What do you think was better for Russia? Communism, or Romanov rule? <<

AGRBear

Since Communism never existed in Russia this is not a question anyone can answer, since it is posed in the past tense:  "was"
If you alter it to read "socialism" then I would go with socialism.
I don't think I need to repeat myself (again) to explain *why*.

Oh, and yes, I'm afraid I do have to agree with Anya.  Since the majority of the US population is overweight, then yes, she was unfortunately correct.
I don't think it's funny, however.

I assume you would have asked the contractor to have built your deck built correctly.  But,  that isn't always the case.  A few contractors will use the wrong braces or take short cuts on the right kind of footing for the foundation of the supports.

It's great to say you'll pay for the doctor bills, but if someone dies, no amount of money will bring them back.

A few hours of getting a permit, waiting for an inspector isn't all that difficult.  So,  why such a fuss when it's worth it to make sure the deck is safe.

It is so very easy to complain but our system in the US works better than most.  

AGRBear

Well, my contractor is my husband, so I don't know why you keep bringin up "contractor" MANY people do their own work, or have you missed out on the DIY movement?
We talked about this post over dinner, and it was pointed out the real truth of the matter. What *really* happens in a majority of cases is that the rules are technically followed (permit, inspection) and once it passes you do whatever it is you wanted to do in the first place.
Therefore, what *really* and ultimately is the purpose of the bureaucracy that is almost *always* manipulated?  There is none. It is unnecessary.  

One of my nieces, who has yet to visit the states, said when she thinks of Americans she pictures a big fat man with a hot dog sticking out of his mouth. I'm afraid she's fairly close to the mark on that one!

Some of my sisters-in-law are amazed at the way westerners pop pills for all that ails or even suspects ails one.  Also suspicious of microwaves (not the technology but that it is not healthy to "nuke" food ), one of them refuses to use synthetic items, even abrasive sponges for washing dishes! But, there is a similar "natural" movement in the west as well, so I don't know how significant that is.

Here is the copied and pasted sections of the now notorious hot dog post.  I have included the paragraph that follows to show that it hasn't been altered.  The original can be found on this thread, page 3.

AGRBear, you stated that I "seemed to think it was funny."
Where did you get this idea? I see no "lol" "hahahah" or smiley faces there.  I do not see the words "I think this is very funny" or anything at all. I certainly do agree that Anya was not far off the mark, but this is something sad, not funny. Because to a great degree, it's true.

Dashkova,

I'm quite aware of the fact that many Soviets lived a sort of ordinary life under Soviet rule, but then "normal" always means being unpolitical, not caring about what is going on around you, what is happening to those people who want to speak freely, and so on.

I'm simply objecting to the JUSTIFYING a criminal system on the grounds that many people living under it didn't care about this.

I consider myself an average American living a "normal" life.  But I am also political and very much tuned in to what is happening in my country, both good and ill.  This does not change my "normal" life in any way, shape, or form. By living my "normal" life I am in no way justifying the many outrages I see and learn of with regard to my country's political, social, economic, and military systems.  I absolutely care about what I see as wrong, illegal or unfair, and do what I can to change it, but it does NOT interfere with my normal life and by living that life it does NOT mean I do not care!

Based on many conversations with former Soviet citizens of many backgrounds and ages, I have discovered that their lives were much the same.  Just because they were living an average, normal life does not mean by doing so they were "justifying" ANYTHING that was bad in their system.

[HEY]

 Especially on the whole Americans=fat thing.  I highly doubt that America is the only country in the world with very obese people.  Infact, there happen to be many very naturally skinny people here--myself included--and who don't eat fast food.  As a matter of fact, I don't even know how or why the subject of fat Americans came up.  Oh yes, I remember--Dashkova and her usual pointless and mindless ramblings.

HEY
  This topic was about opinions and perspectives regarding optimal governmental systems...it segued into Russians perspects on Americans and Americans on Russians . Dashkova made an on topic remark about her neice's impressions - a steriotypical ONE - on american men, and now Michelle is overreacting...
YES Michelle -- many nations have people with weight issues -- and YES this remark was a STERIOTYPE - not a fact - but a STERIOTYPE! OK! :-/

I grow very tired of the childishness here....
PLEASE - EVERYONE - LETS RAISE THE TONE!
rs

Silja
I do agree with you about the "pseudo democratic" system in Russia*  -- Putin is no hero especially with the chaos in the Ukraine at the moment...  

*( Just like the "psuedo democratic" system in the USA  currently  )

ok.
Too many people can't stick to the topic, and frankly, abusive language, flaring tempers etc are forcing me to, *sigh*
Lock yet another topic.
FA