IF's nicknames -- they weren't meant for us!

This isn't likely to be a popular notion, but it's been getting under my skin for a while now...

I'm finding it presumptuous and even a little distasteful the way so many members refer to the IF by nicknames and diminuatives in their posts. I'm posting here because it seems especially common among fans of OTMAA. Over and over again on these threads, I'm seeing the imperial children referred to as Olya, Olishka, Tanya, Alyosha, and so forth.

I guess this bothers me because I've never, ever seen any of those nicknames used in writing by the imperial family themselves. (According to the letters and diaries I've seen, only Maria and Anastasia Nikolaevna occasionally went by nicknames such as Mashka or Nastasya.) I've also heard from someone who's done research at GARF that the grand duchesses didn't even use nicknames in their personal notes to one another -- instead the addressed their notes  "To Olga" or "To Tatiana" and so on.

Yet here we are, strangers in another time, calling these people by the most intimate, familiar forms of their names. It's like someone I've never met assuming it's ok to call me "Sally" or "Sadie" just because they're common nicknames for Sarah. Likewise, you wouldn't call President Bush "Georgie" without his permission. Diminuative forms may be very common in Russian culture, but they're not for just anyone to use -- they're reserved for family and very close friends to express love and tenderness. We're neither.

Judging by the documents that are available, we can't even assume the imperial family themselves used these nicknames and diminuatives, and even if they did, I don't think it's entirely respectful or appropriate for us to use them. I know nobody here refers to "Olya" and "Mashka" out of disrespect. They do it  because they feel a sense of closeness or affection for someone they admire, and I appreciate the sentiment in that. But just because you admire Eleanor Roosevelt doesn't mean you get to call her "Ellie" or "Nora," you know?

I'm not going to wag my finger at anyone, but I hope you'll give some thought to my point of view and make the switch back to the IF's given names if you agree with me. I'm not saying we all should type out "Her Imperial Highness the Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna" but there ought to be a happy medium between that and "Olishka."

These are really good points Sarushka, and I completely undestand how you feel. Especially true is what you wrote about that feeling of closeness, that makes most of us act as we do.

But on the other hand: I´m from a country, where we almost never use the given first names. Jan is actually called Honza, Josef is called Pepa, Anezka is Nyeza and so on. It is only natural for me to use those nicknames sometimes (especially when I´m trying to find a new name for one of my hundreds of pictures). I don´t usually use them with Maria and Olga, but Tatiana and Anastasia are quite long names to be used in coversations.

Thank you nonetheless for bringing this up, it is certainly something to think about.

P.S. You don´t want to know how would I call George Bush if I met him....

P.S. You don´t want to know how would I call George Bush if I met him....

Me too!

I see your point. and I agree with you. most of the time why I use nicknames, like VM said, is because I don't want to type out the full Name. like with Alexandra, I always write 'Alix' because its shorter. same with Anastasia and Nastya. But, I do see your point here, they deserve respect. and I have, too, seen in their letters and Diary's they rarely use nicknames, it's always their given names.

These are really good points Sarushka, and I completely undestand how you feel. Especially true is what you wrote about that feeling of closeness, that makes most of us act as we do.

Yes! I think it dose. that's why most of people use nicknames, the closeness. I mean, how many people do you know that you call a nickname, Family or not, that you are close too? or feel close too? 


Lynn

Excellent point/s, "Sarushka" !  Thank you for boldly bringing up this topic. It has surfaced a number of times on various threads of this forum and as such, consistent usage of personal nick-names of the IF has been cautioned by the moderators for respectful purposes.  It's generally used by the 17 and under "groupies," (almost exclusively female, for very few "boys" are into these topics and posts ---I can think of only 2 - 4, but then you can never tell by the screen name/profile.) On the face of it, it's immature fun of which time will take care when these juveniles mature.  Psychologically, it's a fantasy wish-fulfillment closeness for the ("Imperial" - yet!) sister/ brother/family  that they will never have. ( Apparently to show solidarity to her ideal, one poster (now a "Guest") who recently changed her screen name to one of these nicknames, suffixed by "Princess," hasn't yet noticed that she has spelled it "Pincess"! and is from an English-speaking country. So much for closeness!)  This desire for over-familiarization is a rather modern up-date of the "wishing for a pony" dreamworld.  Few juveniles ever got their wished-for pony and there is an almost a zero probability that ANY of these juveniles would ever have gotten NEAR a true Romanov, etc., except as a viewer from the side-walks AND you would not speak unless you were first addressed.   On the other hand, I can appreciate the view point of "Velkoknezna Maria" as to her European country's custom with nick-names.  Yet these are used in the FAMILIAR for friends/acquaintances, objects of ridicule, etc., and would never have been used by a stranger within a formal/ Imperial context of address.  ALL countries have protocol.   As you have observed, "Sarushka" :  "Diminuative forms may be very common in Russian culture. but they are not for just anyone to use------they're reserved for family and very close friends to express love and tenderness.  We're neither."     AP

I doubt there's any nice way to say this, but using a nickname just because you don't feel like taking the time to type someone's full name strikes me as far more disrespectful than using it because you're an affectionate fan. If you're really desperate for a shortcut while typing, you can always use the person's initials -- TN is far shorter than both Tatiana and Tanya.

As for labeling pictures on your own computer -- yes, I sympathize with that. Nicknames in your file names can definitely help differentiate between photos of the same person. What you do to make things easier to find on your own hard drive really doesn't bother me at all.

I doubt there's any nice way to say this, but using a nickname just because you don't feel like taking the time to type someone's full name strikes me as far more disrespectful than using it because you're an affectionate fan. If you're really desperate for a shortcut while typing, you can always use the person's initials -- TN is far shorter than both Tatiana and Tanya.

As for labeling pictures on your own computer -- yes, I sympathize with that. Nicknames in your file names can definitely help differentiate between photos of the same person. What you do to make things easier to find on your own hard drive really doesn't bother me at all.

Ah, yes, I guess I see your point...sorry!

Lynn

The nicknames don't really bother me. I don't really use them, except "Alix" because I think it's pretty. Anastasia is easy, because my fingers sort of have it memorized on the keyboard. 

Nicknames don't have to be disrespectful. We all have different ideas of what's respectful, anyway.

Likewise, you wouldn't call President Bush "Georgie" without his permission.

I've called him all sorts of things he probably wouldn't like. 

Also, the IF is dead. That doesn't mean they don't deserve respect, of course! But I doubt they care people are using nicknames on a message board 80 some years after their death.

If some people like to feel close to the IF by using nicknames, what's wrong with that? I sometimes find the nicknames a little annoying and overused, but it really isn't my business if people use them.

(Sarushka, not that I'm saying you don't have the right to bring it up if it bothers you. Message board, after all. The point is to have different views and opinions!) 
BTW, I never even knew Sadie and Sally were nicknames for Sarah. I wondered where they came from. Learn something new every day!

I can see where you are coming from with the nicknames.  I always try and use their full names except for Alexandra because her original name was Alix when she was a Princess of Hesse...

Just because I find it interesting...

I hunted through Divnyi Svet this evening, which is one of the few places I recall running across traditional Russian nicknames in the IF's letters. Here are the only ones I've found in letters from Alexandra to her daughters:

"Olenka" - 4 Aug 1905, 11 Feb 1909, 16 Feb 1909, 16 & 17 Apr 1909, 4 Aug 1909, 8 December 1909
"Tatianochka" - 28 Feb 1910
"Mashenka" - 11 Mar 1910, 14 Mar 1910

Granted, this book certainly does not contain every the letter Alexandra wrote to her children, but the vast majority of the ones it does include address the girls by their given names. Interesting that Alexandra almost seemed to go through a couple nickname phases in 1909 and early 1910, isn't it? Even so, I think it's kind of funny that none of the nicknames that are used so often on the AP boards -- such as Olya, Olishka, Tanya, and Mashka -- appear in the empress's letters. Also, the GDss only signed their letters to their mother with their given names.

I don't know about Olishka, Tanya and Mashka, because I never use them but the only reason I type 'Alix' or 'Nicky' is because it's easier than typing 'Alexandra Feodorovna' or 'Tsar Nicholas II'

I don't do it because it makes me feel 'close' to them. I cant really see why people would feel closer to NAOTMAA, or think using nicknames makes them closer to OTMAA. I think it's just cause of easier typing. I also fail to see why using nicknames is disrespectful. Apart from th fact they've been dead for 80 years, using nicknames in general is not disrespectful and I am 100% sure no one does it because they don't have respect for the dead or people deserving of respect.

Whether NAOTMAA  actually deserve our respect is questionable anyway.

Well using nicknames they never used isn't that respectful. I don't. I don't think anyone in their lifetime would want to be called by a nickname they never used. Call them stuff they would recognize. I don't believe I've ever used a non existent nickname. As for names that they did use, those seem to be fairly few and far between, and I don't use them that much. I use Alix and think it is okay too as this was Alexandra's actual name before her marriage, not a nickname. I sometimes refer to how she was called Sunny as a child, but only to illustrate the concept of how her nature changed in later years, not to identify her in her early childhood, as in she was called Sunny for this reason, because she was so happy in early childhood before her mother's death, etc. In general it is clearer to use actual names, and using made up nick names they never used is especially bad.

I don't see how it's disrespectful at all. They're just fond nicknames taken from the original names of a family long dead. "Olishka" I wouldn't find disrespectful. Something like "Ugly Olga" I would. (Especially since she wasn't ugly!)

If user made nicknames annoy you, that's fine. But if they really get under your skin and you can't shake it, I have to wonder about the reason for the obsession. And I thought I was a Romanov fanatic! 

Whether NAOTMAA  actually deserve our respect is questionable anyway.

I can see someone disliking N&A. But OTMAA really didn't do anything, except be born into the family. However, I think they all deserve the respect you'd normally give any human being.

As I said, what's respectful varies from person to person. I know some people even find coloring photos on Photoshop disrespectful.

As for nicknames used by the family. According their letters, Anastasia was first Anastasia, then Nastasia, Nastaska, Schwibz, Schwibzik. Maria was often called Marie. Alexei of course Baby, the Little one. I never crossed anything else. Most of time, the full given name and their regiment name, Kazanets, Elisabethgradets, Voznesenets, Kaspisk. The last 4 only as a signature in their letters for their father.

["Господь им дал дар по молитвам их размягчать окаменелые наши сердца за их страдания..Мне думается, что если люди будут молиться Царской Cемье, оттают сердца с Божией помощью."]

It's questionable whether they deserve our respect?! That's a really ignorant thing to say. Of course they deserve respect. Every human being does.

Thank you Sarah for raising this topic. It often irritates me when people over use nicknames like they knew them personally, and especially when they family didn't even use them. It just seems stupid to me, but that's just my opinion of course. The only ones I've seen the girls use with each other were Mashka/Masha and the whole family referring to Anastasia as Shvybzik. Anastasia signed her letters using many nicknames. She seemed to enjoy them. In letters I've read she has used Nastasya, Nastaska, Nastanka, Caspian Nastaska, etc...

I also don't understand how one could find colorizing b&w pictures of the family when the family colorized the pictures themselves by hand. That's really pointless thing to be offended by.