Author Topic: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...  (Read 88616 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sarushka

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • May I interest you in a grain of salt?
    • View Profile
Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2008, 08:57:19 AM »

IMO, no. As an author myself, seeing 8 pages of a text posted without permission makes me rather uncomfortable -- in spite of the obvious aid they will be for discussion.

Which is exactly why I made the decision as I did, above.
[/quote]

Your decision does seem reasonable, but it's hard for me to get beyond my gut reaction, I guess. If King & Wilson have no problem with it, then it's really none of my business.
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2008, 09:05:45 AM »
...and if they have the slightest problem at all, all they have to do is drop me an email (they both have my address) and it will be gone asap.

Offline Louis_Charles

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2008, 09:49:15 AM »
I'm sorry, Rob,  but the "decision" was not yours to make. I'm a published author, and the idea that people could publish lengthy excerpts from my plays on the internet without my permission is not only uncomfortable, it's illegal. A published book is a commercial property, and as such is protected. You can quote, but wholesale reproduction? No.
You yourself told people to make sure that they had King and Wilson's permission to publish any answers they received, if they were going to simply post the e-mail. If you are (properly, of course) that concerned about this issue, why are you allowing this again? Or why is the onus upon them? You have their e-mail addresses. Why not write and ask their permission before allowing the scans to stand?

Simon
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 09:51:17 AM by Louis_Charles »
"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4757
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2008, 10:02:01 AM »
Alix is right. Helen never claimed to have written the book, and plaigerism is the main concern when entire pages are copied. It was presented just as what it was, pages from a book that is on display in public libraries. (though mine has not seen fit to add it) Look at it like this, libraries buy books, and put them up for everyone to read for free. Is that costing authors money? Any and all authors could claim that having their book in the library has cost them sales, yet I have never heard that complaint from anyone, not even K and W! Helen works in a library, so what she did was present the pages of a book to us that she had purchased and then loaned out for free- just like the library. If we all lived near Helen, she would have loaned us the book, but since we don't, this was the next best thing, but really the same thing.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 10:04:07 AM by Annie »

Offline Louis_Charles

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2008, 10:14:20 AM »
Annie,

I'm sorry, but you do not understand copyright law, which has nothing to do with intent, but actions. No one is claiming (Helen least of all, I should think) that she wrote the book. The public library paid for the book, and whether people can read them for free has nothing to do with the copyright law. We are talking apples and oranges here. Lending you a book is not the same as publicly posting it on the internet. Copyright law is not designed to prevent plagiarism; that's a separate issue. It is designed to protect intellectual property rights.

I realize that this sounds complicated, but trust me, this is a clear violation of copyright, and I would bet that every published author on this forum is squirming a bit.  Helen knows very well that it is, but as she expressed in her posts, she doesn't care. Fair enough, but it doesn't make it right. There is an easy solution to this. Helen should e-mail Penny Wilson or Greg King and ask their permission.

This is not something that is about Wilson or King, either.  For this forum to post the books that they have, the works have to be either in the public doman (i.e. unprotected by copyright law) or permission had to be granted by the authors. Someone like Bob Massie or Peter Kurth or Shay McNeal or Corynne Hall is still making money from their books, and that's one of the reasons you don't see them posted on the Alexander Palace Forum.

Simon
"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2008, 10:17:05 AM »
I'm sorry, Rob,  but the "decision" was not yours to make. I'm a published author, and the idea that people could publish lengthy excerpts from my plays on the internet without my permission is not only uncomfortable, it's illegal. A published book is a commercial property, and as such is protected. You can quote, but wholesale reproduction? No.
You yourself told people to make sure that they had King and Wilson's permission to publish any answers they received, if they were going to simply post the e-mail. If you are (properly, of course) that concerned about this issue, why are you allowing this again? Or why is the onus upon them? You have their e-mail addresses. Why not write and ask their permission before allowing the scans to stand?

Simon


Very simple.  The discussion is with respect to specific paragraphs and sentences in the original text. Several times, the original text and original context of the text were questioned.

There IS the "educational" exemption for copyright.  As the text itself is questioned and under discussion, as well as the accompanying footnotes, the original text itself is the subject of this educational discussion.  Nobody is claiming the work as anything other than belonging to King and Wilson, and nobody is using the text for any commercial purpose (trust me on that one!).  Further only the specific pages in question are reproduced, nothing more.

Therefore, I have made the decision that the text falls within the fair use for educational purposes under the copyright laws, which shifts the burden back to the authors. 

The emails are different because they constitute as yet unpublished writings by the authors, and the emails, should there be any, are originally intended to be private communications, and for these two reasons require advance permission from the authors.  The text of FOTR is already out there in the public domain, on the other hand.

I hope this clarifies your questions, Simon.

Rob

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4757
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2008, 10:21:19 AM »
Quote
Simon said:

The public library paid for the book, and whether people can read them for free has nothing to do with the copyright law.

Helen paid for the book, too.


The text of FOTR is already out there in the public domain, on the other hand.



Rob

This is basically what I was trying to say.

Offline Louis_Charles

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2008, 10:26:32 AM »
It actually doesn't, Rob, although it delineates your position. I repeat, the posting of an electronic reproduction of material from a book without the permission of the publishers or authors is a copyright violation. I consulted with three professional librarians/authors last night, and all three of them agreed.

Having said that, would someone please explain what the big deal is about contacting King and Wilson about this? Even if you don't think you are violating copyright, wouldn't that be good manners? I thought that we were now aiming for civility on these threads.

The text of Fate of the Romanovs is certainly NOT out there in the public domain. It is owned by Greg King, John Wiley Inc. and Penny Wilson.

And Annie, the fact that Helen paid for the book is irrelevant.

Simon
"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2008, 10:27:05 AM »
I'm sorry, Rob,  but the "decision" was not yours to make. I'm a published author, and the idea that people could publish lengthy excerpts from my plays on the internet without my permission is not only uncomfortable, it's illegal.
Simon


Actually, Simon, it is not "illegal" as a blanket statement.  Lets say that I wanted to write an online analysis of the works of Simon, the playwright, to demonstrate why he is the Shakespeare of the 21st century.  I could very easily reproduce whole pages of your work so long as I provide the commentary, questioning and analysis to go along with it.

NOW, if I were publishing your play to give it to people free so they don't have to pay you, THAT's illegal.

NOBODY is providing the pages of FOTR to infringe upon the authors' right to sell their books. THAT is illegal. The pages are here for public discussion of the text and the ideas contained therein. THAT is called Free Speech. THAT is the crucial issue in copyright law.

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2008, 10:30:16 AM »
It actually doesn't, Rob, although it delineates your position. I repeat, the posting of an electronic reproduction of material from a book without the permission of the publishers or authors is a copyright violation. I consulted with three professional librarians/authors last night, and all three of them agreed.

Simon

Simon, I suggest next time you call an intellectual property attorney:

US Code:
TITLE 17 > CHAPTER 1 > § 107

§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4757
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2008, 10:32:10 AM »
Simon, FA is a lawyer. He knows what he's talking about.

Offline Louis_Charles

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2008, 10:34:04 AM »
Thanks, but that is not what has happened here, Rob. The pages have been publicly posted, not privately used. These pages are not in the public domain, i.e. free to re-publish without permission.

And you could not quote from my works without permission from the estate (assuming that you want to do this after I am dead; prior to that you have to come to me). The James Joyce estate, for example, is quite vigilant about this, and has been throttling all sorts of bios and ciriticism that needed direct quotes from his books.

Simon

"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."

Offline Louis_Charles

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2008, 10:36:25 AM »
Thank you, Annie. I am a published author and hold a master's degree in library science, and so do I. My point remains: if you are willing to immediately strike the posts if King and Wilson object, why not avoid that by asking permission to do this?
"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2008, 10:37:24 AM »
The discussion is now moot. (although I strongly disagree with you Simon. One of my oldest friends from High School is the head of the Intellectual Property section of O'Melvany and Myers,and says I'm on ok ground here...)

From:   penny@kingandwilson.com
Subject: Fate of the Romanovs pages
Date: April 5, 2008 10:32:44 AM CDT
To:   Rob@alexanderpalace.org
Cc:   Ldavidson@alongcamemary.com, madking@seanet.com, rob@thecellaraustin.com

Dear Rob –
 
Please remove the pages of Fate of the Romanovs that Helen Azar posted yesterday on your book forum without permission from Greg or I.
 
Thank you.
 
Penny Wilson
 
 

Offline Louis_Charles

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2008, 10:39:14 AM »
Rob,

If you want to continue this in PM, I'd be happy to oblige so we don't bore the board.

Simon
"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."