Author Topic: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...  (Read 90901 times)

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Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2008, 10:46:45 AM »
The pages have been removed. Prior permission from the authors is therefore required before posting scans of pages in the forum.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2008, 01:24:37 PM »
I guess this point is now moot since Penny Wilson ordered FA to remove the pages (surprise, surprise! ;-)). It would have been nice if she also addressed some of these questions while she was at it... although I would have been surprised if she did.

I would like to make a few comments before we resume the discussion on topic.


Annie,

I'm sorry, but you do not understand copyright law...

Obviously only Simon understands the copyright law, rest of us don't. But after all, he does hold a master's in library science.

The text of Fate of the Romanovs is certainly NOT out there in the public domain. It is owned by Greg King, John Wiley Inc. and Penny Wilson.

And Annie, the fact that Helen paid for the book is irrelevant.


Actually, I didn't pay for the book, and don't ever plan on paying for it, I got these pages off Amazon.com (a public domain), and so can anyone else.

These pages are not in the public domain ...

Actually, they are in the public domain (see above). Maybe Penny Wilson doesn't realize that, so you have to tell her. She will need to contact Amazon and ask them to pull the FOTR pages off the public domain.

I am a published author and hold a master's degree in library science, and so do I.

Simon, a master's degree in library science is a joke. Ask Penny Wilson ;-). Actually, I have to admit that it is too :-).

In any case, my point is that anyone can easily access any full page on FOTR on public domain, so it's not really necessary to have them posted on this forum (other than for efficiency and posters' convenience), but ultimately it doesn't really make a difference. We can still access these pages on public domain and discuss them. 

And now let's get back to the topic. All those who would like to see the original pages, can just go to this link (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0471727970/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link) and type in relevant keywords, and the pages will come up in full (in public domain). Annie, if you feel like typing up the relevant quotes we were discussiing, that's also an option (or is that copyright violation too?) We'll have to consult Simon, who has a master's degree in library sceince.


Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2008, 01:25:53 PM »
I would most like some sort of a comment on my initial question about the DNA results, which has never been addressed yet, here or anywhere else as far as I know. This issue has renewed its importance recently because of the new remains found in Ekaterinburg, which are thought to belong to Alexei and his sister. So IMO, it is important to clarify this issue, which has been so controversial in the last 10 years, and obviously this "assessment" in FOTR does not help matters. Do the authors still feel the same way about the Romanov DNA results, and if not then why wasn't that paragraph in the book corrected with the release of new editions?

P 445: "To obtain a complete sequence, or mtDNA fingerprint, Gill and Ivanov were forced to look for overlapping, repetitive strands, which were then spliced together to form the missing links in the genetic chain. Although standard practice, this scientific necessity did not provide an unaltered genetic code for the remains, but rather one achieved through manipulation of the available data based on estimation. (*35)" ( * reference 35 is Bryan Sykes' book "The Seven daughters of Eve" p 66-68).

These words the authors use: "forced to look for overlapping", “missing links”, "did not provide an unaltered genetic code", "achieved through manipulation", "based on estimation" – all sound very ominous. If the reader doesn't know basic science, this may give him/her the impression that the scientists did something manipulative, speculative, and that the end result didn't produce a clear-cut answer, but instead they ended up with an uncertain and questionable conclusion.
 
In fact, this is absolutely not true. The entire point of mitochondrial DNA sequencing is that it produces an exact sequence - 100% correct sequence over say 600 letters. This is a very important point. If you get one single "altered genetic code" out of 600 letters, this means you got only 99.9% right, and 0.1% wrong answer, which will then ruin the whole theory/conclusion. The 0.1% difference would confirm that these remains were NOT the Romanov family. But this did not happen at all and the result was a 100% match.
 
Greg King and Penny Wilson state that they based these facts on the Bryan Sykes' book. However, if you read pp 66-68 of the said book, Sykes never said such a thing, in fact he said the complete opposite. 
Sykes: "…eventually the sequences of the presumed Tsarina and her three children were typed. They all had exactly the same sequence as 111, 357. They were all an exact match with the Duke of Edinburgh."

Sykes used the word "exact" twice. Not a single reference to the "altered genetic code" or "manipulation" or "estimation".

So, paraphrasing, why do the authors use terms to imply that there were some sort of dodgy dealings going on, and why do they quote a page from a book that says the exact opposite of what they state?
   



Helen
BA, MS, MLIS  (no BS) ;-)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 01:33:32 PM by Helen_A »

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2008, 01:30:16 PM »
Helen,

You were asked to be civil. I'm trying. See what you can do about it.



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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2008, 01:48:56 PM »

I would most like some sort of a comment on my initial question about the DNA results, which has never been addressed yet, here or anywhere else as far as I know. This issue has renewed its importance recently because of the new remains found in Ekaterinburg, which are thought to belong to Alexei and his sister. So IMO, it is important to clarify this issue, which has been so controversial in the last 10 years, and obviously this "assessment" in FOTR does not help matters. Do the authors still feel the same way about the Romanov DNA results, and if not then why wasn't that paragraph in the book corrected with the release of new editions?

P 445: "To obtain a complete sequence, or mtDNA fingerprint, Gill and Ivanov were forced to look for overlapping, repetitive strands, which were then spliced together to form the missing links in the genetic chain. Although standard practice, this scientific necessity did not provide an unaltered genetic code for the remains, but rather one achieved through manipulation of the available data based on estimation. (*35)" ( * reference 35 is Bryan Sykes' book "The Seven daughters of Eve" p 66-68).

These words the authors use: "forced to look for overlapping", “missing links”, "did not provide an unaltered genetic code", "achieved through manipulation", "based on estimation" – all sound very ominous. If the reader doesn't know basic science, this may give him/her the impression that the scientists did something manipulative, speculative, and that the end result didn't produce a clear-cut answer, but instead they ended up with an uncertain and questionable conclusion.
 
In fact, this is absolutely not true. The entire point of mitochondrial DNA sequencing is that it produces an exact sequence - 100% correct sequence over say 600 letters. This is a very important point. If you get one single "altered genetic code" out of 600 letters, this means you got only 99.9% right, and 0.1% wrong answer, which will then ruin the whole theory/conclusion. The 0.1% difference would confirm that these remains were NOT the Romanov family. But this did not happen at all and the result was a 100% match.
 
Greg King and Penny Wilson state that they based these facts on the Bryan Sykes' book. However, if you read pp 66-68 of the said book, Sykes never said such a thing, in fact he said the complete opposite. 
Sykes: "…eventually the sequences of the presumed Tsarina and her three children were typed. They all had exactly the same sequence as 111, 357. They were all an exact match with the Duke of Edinburgh."

Sykes used the word "exact" twice. Not a single reference to the "altered genetic code" or "manipulation" or "estimation".

So, paraphrasing, why do the authors use terms to imply that there were some sort of dodgy dealings going on, and why do they quote a page from a book that says the exact opposite of what they state?
   




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Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2008, 02:11:41 PM »
I got an email from Penny, wanting to clarify their position.  She doesn't think they would deny permission for specific pages to be reproduced here for discussion purposes, but wants the copyright respected by people asking permission of them first.

I think that's ultimately reasonable.  Carry on. Civilly.







Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2008, 02:25:33 PM »
She ...wants the copyright respected by people asking permission of them first.

Would Wilson have given me this premission if I asked her?... lol. Let's face it, the only reason she told  FA to remove these pages is because I was the one who posted them ;-) Otherwise she would have loved to have the exposure.

She doesn't think they would deny permission for specific pages to be reproduced here for discussion purposes...

So does that mean that she now gives her permission, or not? What if someone else asks her really nicely? :-) Did she also say anything about answering our questions, if someone asks really nicely?

In any case, as I mentioned, we don't really need these pages posted here since they are in the public domain and accesible to anyone anyway. It will take one extra step for posters to see them, which was what I was trying to help out with before Simon stepped in and all hell broke loose.

And now, may we please get back to the topic and stop going off tangent for every piece of nonsense?

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2008, 02:27:05 PM »


I would most like some sort of a comment on my initial question about the DNA results, which has never been addressed yet, here or anywhere else as far as I know. This issue has renewed its importance recently because of the new remains found in Ekaterinburg, which are thought to belong to Alexei and his sister. So IMO, it is important to clarify this issue, which has been so controversial in the last 10 years, and obviously this "assessment" in FOTR does not help matters. Do the authors still feel the same way about the Romanov DNA results, and if not then why wasn't that paragraph in the book corrected with the release of new editions?

P 445: "To obtain a complete sequence, or mtDNA fingerprint, Gill and Ivanov were forced to look for overlapping, repetitive strands, which were then spliced together to form the missing links in the genetic chain. Although standard practice, this scientific necessity did not provide an unaltered genetic code for the remains, but rather one achieved through manipulation of the available data based on estimation. (*35)" ( * reference 35 is Bryan Sykes' book "The Seven daughters of Eve" p 66-68).

These words the authors use: "forced to look for overlapping", “missing links”, "did not provide an unaltered genetic code", "achieved through manipulation", "based on estimation" – all sound very ominous. If the reader doesn't know basic science, this may give him/her the impression that the scientists did something manipulative, speculative, and that the end result didn't produce a clear-cut answer, but instead they ended up with an uncertain and questionable conclusion.
 
In fact, this is absolutely not true. The entire point of mitochondrial DNA sequencing is that it produces an exact sequence - 100% correct sequence over say 600 letters. This is a very important point. If you get one single "altered genetic code" out of 600 letters, this means you got only 99.9% right, and 0.1% wrong answer, which will then ruin the whole theory/conclusion. The 0.1% difference would confirm that these remains were NOT the Romanov family. But this did not happen at all and the result was a 100% match.
 
Greg King and Penny Wilson state that they based these facts on the Bryan Sykes' book. However, if you read pp 66-68 of the said book, Sykes never said such a thing, in fact he said the complete opposite. 
Sykes: "…eventually the sequences of the presumed Tsarina and her three children were typed. They all had exactly the same sequence as 111, 357. They were all an exact match with the Duke of Edinburgh."

Sykes used the word "exact" twice. Not a single reference to the "altered genetic code" or "manipulation" or "estimation".

So, paraphrasing, why do the authors use terms to imply that there were some sort of dodgy dealings going on, and why do they quote a page from a book that says the exact opposite of what they state?
   




Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2008, 02:32:08 PM »
Quote
In any case, as I mentioned, we don't really need these pages posted here since they are in the public domain and accesible to anyone anyway. It will take one extra step for posters to see them, which was what I was trying to help out with before Simon stepped in and all hell broke loose.

Helen, if you really want to keep this civil, you will stop sniping, or I will abandon my saintly restraint. Notice how I didn't even bother to correct you on the difference between "public domain" and "public visibility"? Oops, I guess I just did.

You can repost your questions as often as you wish, and I won't comment. You have set up the Amazon link, so I assume you will be restricting yourself to the pages Amazon makes available?

Have at it, girlfriend.
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Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2008, 02:34:50 PM »


Would Wilson have given me this premission if I asked her?... lol. Let's face it, the only reason she told  FA to remove these pages is because I was the one who posted them ;-) Otherwise she would have loved to have the exposure.


Of course, and  she wouldn't have given me permission either so why bother? I am pretty sure I've seen AGRBear use similar looking pages from FOTR with certain passages highlighted and no one complained. But of course Bear is their friend and that makes all the difference.

 I didn't know that Helen got the actual pages on Amazon and that they were in public domain for free, that to me really discounts any claim of infringement (and this would go for anyone) It seems that if authors don't want their work scanned and put up they should take it up with Amazon, but once it's there, it's public domain and I don't see how anyone can legally force you to remove it (unless you want to just to avoid hassle, but you don't have to)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 02:38:10 PM by Annie »

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2008, 02:37:44 PM »
You have set up the Amazon link, so I assume you will be restricting yourself to the pages Amazon makes available?

FYI to those who are interested but may be confused by this statement. Every page in the book is available to the public and can be accessed by typing in specific keywords. All pages containing this keyword(s) will come up and can be viewed in their entirety. Please don't pay attention to those who tell you otherwise. So if you want to check a quote or double-check some information in the book, you don't need to purchase the book or even check it out of the library, but only use this feature on Amazon.

And now, once again, back to the topic.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 03:01:25 PM by Helen_A »

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2008, 02:47:05 PM »
The above post is correct, although it will be a cumbersome way to read the book, and I think Amazon would be surprised to learn that there are people who choose to do it this way. Still, if you are determined not to purchase it or take it out of the library, and you have some time to kill, she has provided a free way to read the book (of course, you can also sit in the cafe at Barnes and Noble with a shelf copy and have coffee while you do it.)

Don't miss the words "Copyrighted Material" at the bottom of each page, though. It's my favorite part.

Public domain, my aunt Fanny.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 02:48:45 PM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2008, 02:48:35 PM »
You can repost your questions as often as you wish, and I won't comment.

I hope you won't, since according to the rules on this thread unless you have the answer directly from one of the authors and can post a quote from them, you are not supposed to comment. So thanks for that.


So, once again, I would most like some sort of a comment from the authors on my initial question about the DNA results, which has never been addressed yet, here or anywhere else as far as I know. This issue has renewed its importance recently because of the new remains found in Ekaterinburg, which are thought to belong to Alexei and his sister. So IMO, it is important to clarify this issue, which has been so controversial in the last 10 years, and obviously this "assessment" in FOTR does not help matters. Do the authors still feel the same way about the Romanov DNA results, and if not then why wasn't that paragraph in the book corrected with the release of new editions?

P 445: "To obtain a complete sequence, or mtDNA fingerprint, Gill and Ivanov were forced to look for overlapping, repetitive strands, which were then spliced together to form the missing links in the genetic chain. Although standard practice, this scientific necessity did not provide an unaltered genetic code for the remains, but rather one achieved through manipulation of the available data based on estimation. (*35)" ( * reference 35 is Bryan Sykes' book "The Seven daughters of Eve" p 66-68).

These words the authors use: "forced to look for overlapping", “missing links”, "did not provide an unaltered genetic code", "achieved through manipulation", "based on estimation" – all sound very ominous. If the reader doesn't know basic science, this may give him/her the impression that the scientists did something manipulative, speculative, and that the end result didn't produce a clear-cut answer, but instead they ended up with an uncertain and questionable conclusion.
 
In fact, this is absolutely not true. The entire point of mitochondrial DNA sequencing is that it produces an exact sequence - 100% correct sequence over say 600 letters. This is a very important point. If you get one single "altered genetic code" out of 600 letters, this means you got only 99.9% right, and 0.1% wrong answer, which will then ruin the whole theory/conclusion. The 0.1% difference would confirm that these remains were NOT the Romanov family. But this did not happen at all and the result was a 100% match.
 
Greg King and Penny Wilson state that they based these facts on the Bryan Sykes' book. However, if you read pp 66-68 of the said book, Sykes never said such a thing, in fact he said the complete opposite. 
Sykes: "…eventually the sequences of the presumed Tsarina and her three children were typed. They all had exactly the same sequence as 111, 357. They were all an exact match with the Duke of Edinburgh."

Sykes used the word "exact" twice. Not a single reference to the "altered genetic code" or "manipulation" or "estimation".

So, paraphrasing, why do the authors use terms to imply that there were some sort of dodgy dealings going on, and why do they quote a page from a book that says the exact opposite of what they state?
   



Let's please stop changing the subject to all sorts of nonsense, since I know we still have other legitimate questions which should be posted here just in case the authors decide to defend their statements in the book.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2008, 03:09:19 PM »
Once again, here is that Amazon link - this feature is free of charge to anyone who wants to use it. For those who don't own the book and need to do a quick reference check for something we are discussing, or double-check a quote, etc., it's a perfect tool! The only thing now is that instead of being able to post the page containing the quote(s) we are discussing, we will have to retype them. Thanks, Simon, for making things more difficult for the posters. But it builds character! ;-)


http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0471727970/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 03:11:45 PM by Helen_A »

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Re: Questions/comments for the authors of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS...
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2008, 01:37:09 PM »
I am sorry that my post was removed.  I was being facetious.

It was meant as comic relief as in Shakespeare.

Could it be put back?